Dark Patterns in Substack(hermitian.substack.com)
hermitian.substack.com
Dark Patterns in Substack
https://hermitian.substack.com/p/dark-patterns-in-substack
45 comments
I'm with you. Substack was and still is a newsletter platform. The webview, as you said, it's secondary. It's not a blogging platform.
And, as you correctly pointed out, if you follow someone on substack is because you want to get their content and their content is delivered, primarily, by email.
And I also agree with your take on this not beign a dark pattern. It's set to that default because by default that's how Substack is designed to work. You write and you send via email to all the people that follow you.
And, as you correctly pointed out, if you follow someone on substack is because you want to get their content and their content is delivered, primarily, by email.
And I also agree with your take on this not beign a dark pattern. It's set to that default because by default that's how Substack is designed to work. You write and you send via email to all the people that follow you.
I had no idea it was a newsletter service.
It should be up to the subscribers how they want their notifications. I want to see what’s new when I visit.
It should be up to the subscribers how they want their notifications. I want to see what’s new when I visit.
There’s a “receive email for new posts” setting for each subscription that you can turn off.
Totally agree on your point.
What's more, the article talks about patterns in plural, yet I can see only a single one being pointed out?
What's more, the article talks about patterns in plural, yet I can see only a single one being pointed out?
The whole point of Substack, specifically, is that people can sign up to get your writing via email, no? It sounds like the author is using it for a purpose that it wasn't really intended for.
But also, it's not really a dark pattern. How does Substack benefit from this? The only people getting the email are the ones who signed up. And it costs them money.
And also, it seems like the author has raised a "dark pattern" (singular). They're unhappy that a single checkbox defaults to checked. Which is...pretty benign.
But also, it's not really a dark pattern. How does Substack benefit from this? The only people getting the email are the ones who signed up. And it costs them money.
And also, it seems like the author has raised a "dark pattern" (singular). They're unhappy that a single checkbox defaults to checked. Which is...pretty benign.
> The whole point of Substack, specifically, is that people can sign up to get your writing via email, no?
I think Substack certainly thinks that. And because I believe they think that, I don't think this qualifies as a dark pattern.
But as a user, I don't get that model at all. Why send me an email when I already have the article in the Substack app? The app can already show me the latest posts from the authors I follow. It will notify me if someone responds to my comments. For me, the emails are just extra work that produces no value.
I think Substack certainly thinks that. And because I believe they think that, I don't think this qualifies as a dark pattern.
But as a user, I don't get that model at all. Why send me an email when I already have the article in the Substack app? The app can already show me the latest posts from the authors I follow. It will notify me if someone responds to my comments. For me, the emails are just extra work that produces no value.
I vastly prefer my email app for consuming information over someone else's app. Put it all in one place.
That makes it even less of a "dark pattern", because you can host Substack on your domain and can download list of both free and paid subscriber and move elsewhere, so that, by using email, Substack habituates readers to THE WRITER, and not to their platform specifically, which would be the case if delivery was standard by their own app only.
Substack has an app?
They benefit by promoting the authors who publish there, because they get a cut of paid subscriptions. They heavily encourage authors to do things to try to get as many subscribers as possible. The defaults are set up to try to get people to enter their email address.
This is incentive-compatible if you’re a professional writer who is trying to make money through paid subscriptions. It’s a bit annoying if you just want to have a blog because you have to turn that stuff off. It’s not hard to configure, though.
This is incentive-compatible if you’re a professional writer who is trying to make money through paid subscriptions. It’s a bit annoying if you just want to have a blog because you have to turn that stuff off. It’s not hard to configure, though.
Sending posts as email does nothing to get you more subscribers because it only sends to people who are subscribers already.
Yes. But if they're not paid subscribers, there's an opportunity to upsell. If people forget about reading your blog, they're unlikely to want to pay for it.
Also, if they're regular readers then they're more likely to share links elsewhere on the Internet.
Also, if they're regular readers then they're more likely to share links elsewhere on the Internet.
I have a Substack with nearly 700 subscribers. I don't even have an option to pay for it. Nothing about the email feature increases the likelihood of Substack making money from my subscribers.
Like you, I have no plans to charge money for my blog. Substack doesn't seem to care about making money from us.
But a lot of Substack's features are targeted towards professional writers who make money from paid subscriptions, giving Substack a cut. We're just along for the ride, so we get those features too.
But a lot of Substack's features are targeted towards professional writers who make money from paid subscriptions, giving Substack a cut. We're just along for the ride, so we get those features too.
Buy your own domain name, use your own publishing tool. Own your words, own your distribution. Avoid falling for the lure of platform fame.
Substack allows you to use your own domain.
Yeah, right, Substack. The site that needs JS disabled to become usable, and is so terrible I recently made a meme about it[1]
[1] https://friends.grishka.me/posts/530834
[1] https://friends.grishka.me/posts/530834
Reminds me of Medium. Started well, but now I'm starting to avoid Substack links.
You’re upset that an email newsletter platform sends email newsletters by default?
Getting too many can be annoying. Imagine how annoying it would be to subscribe to a dozen blogs and get 50+ emails/week? I subscribed to just 2 blogs and got a dozen emails a week from those, either notifying me of new posts or comments. I think one email per blog per week is ideal.
Inbox filters.
I just want the option to turn it off by default.
It's a newsletter platform. What does it mean that you want email delivery off by default? If what you're after is a blogging platform with optional email delivery I'm sure there are countless alternatives out there.
Are we just ignoring that all their front page copy mentions blog/web before newsletter/email? If everything on their front page makes it seem like newsletters are secondary to web blogs, why shouldn't the writer be able to treat it as such? I don't see anything wrong with a writer wanting an option to turn off email delivery by default when Substack is clearly trying to be both a blogging platform and a newsletter platform. They even have their own mobile app for reading blog posts. I'm not arguing that the lack of that option is a dark pattern, but why be against having it?
> A Substack combines a blog, newsletter, payment system, and customer support team — all integrated seamlessly with a simple interface. We handle the admin, billing, and tech so you can focus on your best work.
> Substack’s simple system lets you publish to the web, email, and our app simultaneously so you can find new readers and always reach your existing audience.
> Substack helps anyone set up a blog and email newsletter. No tech knowledge is required. Without ads and algorithms to get in the way, you can sustain a direct relationship with your readers and retain full control over your creative work.
> A Substack combines a blog, newsletter, payment system, and customer support team — all integrated seamlessly with a simple interface. We handle the admin, billing, and tech so you can focus on your best work.
> Substack’s simple system lets you publish to the web, email, and our app simultaneously so you can find new readers and always reach your existing audience.
> Substack helps anyone set up a blog and email newsletter. No tech knowledge is required. Without ads and algorithms to get in the way, you can sustain a direct relationship with your readers and retain full control over your creative work.
Huh, I did indeed unsubscribe from a bunch of people because I didn't want those emails.
Interesting to have it called out here that it's default behavior that's inconvenient for the author to change.
Interesting to have it called out here that it's default behavior that's inconvenient for the author to change.
You're supposed to subscribe when you DO want those emails.
It's a newsletter platform, not a "I'll check it whenever I want on the web" plarform.
It's a newsletter platform, not a "I'll check it whenever I want on the web" plarform.
Im pretty sure as a subscriber their email strategy is illegal in Canada. Last I checked there was no unsubscribe buttons that removed me from all their emails. I had to go spelunking in their interface to find the email options on different pages.
Iirc one publication email would have an unsubscribe, but it only unsubscribes from that publication. There weren’t options to unsubscribe all from that button. For that I had to sign in and it wasn’t too easy to find the unsubscribe all option.
Iirc one publication email would have an unsubscribe, but it only unsubscribes from that publication. There weren’t options to unsubscribe all from that button. For that I had to sign in and it wasn’t too easy to find the unsubscribe all option.
You can report them here: <https:
//www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/030.nsf/frm-eng/MMCN-9EZV6S>
I've done it a few times, its suprisingly quite nice. They generate a unique email you can forward the offending message to
I've done it a few times, its suprisingly quite nice. They generate a unique email you can forward the offending message to
Isn’t that normal? Like, I can’t unsubscribe from all Mailchimp newsletters for example.
When you sign up to get emails form a specific author or publication you’re signing up to that specific newsletter, delivered to you by Substack.
When you sign up to get emails form a specific author or publication you’re signing up to that specific newsletter, delivered to you by Substack.
It's definitely a gray area. What if twitter sent you mails for each following account and you can't unsubscribe from them all? Or Amazon sent promos for different sellers and you can't unsubscribe from them all?
Anyway there's other stuff. Via CAN SPAM laws, companies cannot pre-check subscription boxes (Substack does this in onboarding as well as when you subscribe via browsing their site). [0][1]
Also their consent gathering is not up to par. The regulations "require that a request for consent must contain a statement indicating that the person whose consent is sought can withdraw their consent."
Last, there may be something about how Substack bundles subscribing to publication on their dashboard into emails. To me this isn't unlike how following on twitter can't automatically subscribe to newsletter emails. There's specific callouts in CAN SPAM about such bundling. Ie you can't bundle accepting terms of service with receiving emails.
[0]: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-549.htm
[1]: https://i.imgur.com/8tmDRGI.png
[2]: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-548.htm
Anyway there's other stuff. Via CAN SPAM laws, companies cannot pre-check subscription boxes (Substack does this in onboarding as well as when you subscribe via browsing their site). [0][1]
Also their consent gathering is not up to par. The regulations "require that a request for consent must contain a statement indicating that the person whose consent is sought can withdraw their consent."
Last, there may be something about how Substack bundles subscribing to publication on their dashboard into emails. To me this isn't unlike how following on twitter can't automatically subscribe to newsletter emails. There's specific callouts in CAN SPAM about such bundling. Ie you can't bundle accepting terms of service with receiving emails.
[0]: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-549.htm
[1]: https://i.imgur.com/8tmDRGI.png
[2]: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-548.htm
The main difference between Substack and your examples, is that on Substack the email IS the content.
You’re not receiving a notifications for content to be consumed on Twitter or on Amazon.
As for the other things you mentioned, those are more legal things I know absolutely nothing about and so I won’t comment on them because I honestly don’t have anything to contribute.
You’re not receiving a notifications for content to be consumed on Twitter or on Amazon.
As for the other things you mentioned, those are more legal things I know absolutely nothing about and so I won’t comment on them because I honestly don’t have anything to contribute.
What you’re saying is more true of something like mailchimp or sendgrid. Since substack hosts the blog post on their site (with recommendations and everything) to me it’s more akin to a FB/twitter situation requiring separate consent vs follow.
Platform defaults are set at the platform level. If the platform determines that it provides enough value, they can setup user defined configuration. This is probably a case where it does not seem warranted. If OP wants more flexibility in blogging, he can use a different platform or host himself using Ghost or another blogging app. I personally don't like filling up my email inbox and prefer RSS. I still fund writers, but I just don't want more email.
Substack sends way too many emails. I follow just a few blogs and get tons of emails form them. Annoying
RSS is better ..for example, aggregating many substack blogs into a single site, like https://pubstack.site This way I can avoid getting tons of email notifications.
RSS is better ..for example, aggregating many substack blogs into a single site, like https://pubstack.site This way I can avoid getting tons of email notifications.
>You see, under ‘Delivery’, the checkbox is always set:
As soon as I read this, I was expecting the checkbox to be always checked and grayed out without the possibility of being checked out. It doesn't seem to be the case at the moment, according to the screenshot. As others have pointed out, I don't think this is a dark pattern.
As soon as I read this, I was expecting the checkbox to be always checked and grayed out without the possibility of being checked out. It doesn't seem to be the case at the moment, according to the screenshot. As others have pointed out, I don't think this is a dark pattern.
Post Author: subscribes to a newsletter
Also Post Author: complain that they are getting emails from the newsletter they subscribed to
Also Post Author: complain that they are getting emails from the newsletter they subscribed to
I figured "dark patterns" must mean "a lot of people I don't like are publishing there."
But no. A trivial complaint that's easily handled in any of a dozen ways. This isn't the late 90's anymore.
But no. A trivial complaint that's easily handled in any of a dozen ways. This isn't the late 90's anymore.
>I figured "dark patterns" must mean "a lot of people I don't like are publishing there."
Let's assume this was the case. How's that a dark pattern?
Let's assume this was the case. How's that a dark pattern?
Substack is an email newsletter tool, not a blogging platform. It never claimed to be a blogging platform. In fact, these "dark patterns" are it telling you exactly what it is: an email newsletter platform.
A stupid post. If you don't like Substack don't post there.
Or create a separate email account where all your Substack mail goes.
Or create a separate email account where all your Substack mail goes.
Huh? This is not even wrong. First of all, Substack is primarily (and has been touted as such) a newsletter (email based) platform, not a web blogging platform. The web version of a newsletter is supposed to be secondary.
Second, it makes sense to give all users as a default, and "restricted" reach to paid subscribers as an option.
Third, if I follow someone, it's precisely because as a reader I want to get notifications when they post something. Couldn't be more explicit.
Forth, a dark pattern (and still arguable at that) would have been prioritizing paid-only posts, since those are which give Substack money. So the total opposite.