Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Mayan ball game scoreboard thought to be over 1k years old found in Mexico
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/mayan-ball-game-scoreboard-chichen-itza-mexico
62 comments
We just returned from Cancun, where we toured the ruins of Tulum. The maya apparently had folded books, which out of thousands only 3 remain. To see them, you have to travel to Madrid, Paris or Dresden. Apparently the rest were burned by Spanish when they arrived in late 1580. Somehow I was overwhelmed with a huge sense of loss when I heard this. Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned.
> We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they (the Maya) regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa
Same with the Aztecs of Tenochtitlan, who kept meticulous bureaucratic records. We know quite a bit about them thanks to the friars who got to see a lot of the records while Cortes' expedition were guests (/captors) of Montezuma. They all burned during the final battle for Tenochtitlan.
> Knowledge from around 3000 bc to 1580 or so just burned
If it makes you feel any better, it’s likely a LOT less time that that. They didn’t develop their complex social culture until ~750BC & the earliest sculptural examples of Maya script are ~300BC.
It’s extremely unlikely any books the Spanish burned dated back until then but that’s the likely earliest they would have been.
Still a massive cultural crime & attempted genocide tho
If it makes you feel any better, it’s likely a LOT less time that that. They didn’t develop their complex social culture until ~750BC & the earliest sculptural examples of Maya script are ~300BC.
It’s extremely unlikely any books the Spanish burned dated back until then but that’s the likely earliest they would have been.
Still a massive cultural crime & attempted genocide tho
Actual texts might only span ~1900 years, but if they are anything like European cultures their texts also contain written recordings of oral tradition. That would extend the time window, though with decreased accuracy.
I really wish ancient sports would make a comeback. I would give an arm and leg to spectate at an ancient sports demo event. Sort of Renaissance fair meets Olympics vibe.
This specific type of ball game is widely known and advertised in Mexico, to the point that the following type of events is organised:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKvQjgC9sIY
But as said in another comment, it's just an interpretation, it's really hard to tell if it's anything like the original intent of the sport/ritual.
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Here's an optimistic video about a different modern approach to what is known of the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYJxng6i4NQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKvQjgC9sIY
But as said in another comment, it's just an interpretation, it's really hard to tell if it's anything like the original intent of the sport/ritual.
---
Here's an optimistic video about a different modern approach to what is known of the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYJxng6i4NQ
And in a thousand years historians will look back at baseball, a well-known sports game with ritual overtones. The team known roughly as 'the bloody foot-mittens' is known to have been cursed by the gods for over half a century.
Agreed, and more generally, I would love to know what life was like for these people. We have an advanced civilization that was almost totally wiped out. Millions of people living their lives independently of western civilization.
I’ve toyed with the idea of plotting the era and location of popular TV and movie narratives. I think you’d find that most of them are very narrowly focused on a handful of places and times. This may not be a recipe for successful TV, but I would love to watch a TV show about the Maya or the Olmec or the Inca (or really any of the pre-Colombian indigenous people of the Americas). Like all people, I’m sure that these people had dramatic lives, but it would be all the more interesting because it would be a totally different culture. When you think about what modern civilization has inherited from these people—-agriculture especially—-it’s a shame that we don’t know more about them.
I’ve toyed with the idea of plotting the era and location of popular TV and movie narratives. I think you’d find that most of them are very narrowly focused on a handful of places and times. This may not be a recipe for successful TV, but I would love to watch a TV show about the Maya or the Olmec or the Inca (or really any of the pre-Colombian indigenous people of the Americas). Like all people, I’m sure that these people had dramatic lives, but it would be all the more interesting because it would be a totally different culture. When you think about what modern civilization has inherited from these people—-agriculture especially—-it’s a shame that we don’t know more about them.
I guess it's more difficult to make characters with radically different lives and concerns be relatable. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but not many series are going for high effort right now when it's so easy to make money shipping a rehash of a formula proven to make money.
Both Maya and the Three and Elena of Avalor had long subplots on Aztec, Maya and Inca characters (human and god).
You might like The Moche Toss. An ancient Peruvian sport/ceremony in which participants use atlatls and darts to launch feathered objects into the air, and then try to ensnare them before they hit the ground.
It has been filmed in slow motion in this beautiful video.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=k99dR1UTqPM
It has been filmed in slow motion in this beautiful video.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=k99dR1UTqPM
Cool! Reminds me of the "most dangerous game" of the 80's, Lawn Darts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khHzGqgO2Bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khHzGqgO2Bw
They used to flood the Colisseum and re-enact naval battles - would pay good money to see that tbf.
Saw some little youtube documentary about a group in mexico trying to resurrect the ball game.
I have a feeling it would be tough to weigh where to keep things to 100% to what we know vs. filling in the blanks to make it more entertaining. Seems to have been going on during the olmec period too which would indicate at least around 3000 years of play... lots of different variations over that time. Tough to decide which one to pick.
I have a feeling it would be tough to weigh where to keep things to 100% to what we know vs. filling in the blanks to make it more entertaining. Seems to have been going on during the olmec period too which would indicate at least around 3000 years of play... lots of different variations over that time. Tough to decide which one to pick.
Tough to decide which one to pick.
This is what makes me very sad, for those trying to recover their culture.
For example, there are many Native Canadians trying to recover their culture and language, their history. And I wish them all success!
But at the same time, I often see such discussions talking as if that culture was static. Unchangeable. "This is how we did it", from elders, which barely remember anything other than the fading memories of ther great grandparents.
Instead, I hope that such culture can be brought back, but with an understanding of "what if such culture was not wiped out, but instead, stayed alive and existed through change to modern times".
An example would be food, and dance, and music, and stories. All of these would transition to modern mediums, and tools, and yet, still stem from the past, while simultaneously being influenced by the widening world, and expanded trade, and so on.
I think the greatest loss is not the way things were, past culture, because everyone loses that, humans always change, regardless of technology.
Instead, the greatest loss is what could have been today.
And I would love to see what could have been.
This is what makes me very sad, for those trying to recover their culture.
For example, there are many Native Canadians trying to recover their culture and language, their history. And I wish them all success!
But at the same time, I often see such discussions talking as if that culture was static. Unchangeable. "This is how we did it", from elders, which barely remember anything other than the fading memories of ther great grandparents.
Instead, I hope that such culture can be brought back, but with an understanding of "what if such culture was not wiped out, but instead, stayed alive and existed through change to modern times".
An example would be food, and dance, and music, and stories. All of these would transition to modern mediums, and tools, and yet, still stem from the past, while simultaneously being influenced by the widening world, and expanded trade, and so on.
I think the greatest loss is not the way things were, past culture, because everyone loses that, humans always change, regardless of technology.
Instead, the greatest loss is what could have been today.
And I would love to see what could have been.
I agree but unfortunately those things are lost and such a revival is impossible. The best we can do is try to deeply understand what was lost and why they were lost and how to prevent similar loss in the future. Unfortunately we just repeat the same patterns because it's logically impossible for it to ever be a pressing problem for those with power and representation, so they're never motivated to solve it.
I've had visiting a calcio storico event in my bucket list for awhile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcio_Fiorentino
The incessant commercialization is a limiting factor as well. Getting rid of uniform logos and going back to the days where all the competitors were naked and covered in oil would certainly boost interest.
It sounds like they had uniforms.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Ballgame
> The usual dress for players is known from iconographic and figural findings. These show leather protection mainly at the hips and the chest, but sometimes also at the knees and the arms, though very seldom at the feet. The clothing was used to protect against the impact of the ball. The protected parts of the body were used to strike the ball. Some players would wear head dresses (like deer heads) for ritual reasons.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Ballgame
> The usual dress for players is known from iconographic and figural findings. These show leather protection mainly at the hips and the chest, but sometimes also at the knees and the arms, though very seldom at the feet. The clothing was used to protect against the impact of the ball. The protected parts of the body were used to strike the ball. Some players would wear head dresses (like deer heads) for ritual reasons.
...oh, but looking at some visual depictions, it looks like those uniforms didn't cover a whole lot! (Sorry, I was past the edit window.)
I have been thinking that having the competitors being naked would solve lot of issues related to equipment and equality. Specially in sports like field, swimming and why not in football either.
Interesting that it was found at Chichen Itza, where millions of people visit a year. An escavation was started there to go even deeper than the pyramid base, but that was paused due to lack of funding. Now you just see a moat on one side that hints at what lies beneath. The tour guide had said that the pyramid is actually constructed on fill above a sink hole.
The Yucatán Peninsula has limestone shelves, as the entire area was a sea floor in primordial times. Holes in these shelves that provide access to an enormous aquifer are called cenote.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote
Bathing inside a cenote is an out of this world experience
The Sacred Cenote at Chichén Itzá is also littered with jade fragments, which were burned and then dropped into the water by ancient inhabitants. When scorching jade hits the water it shatters, making sound that reverberates thought the ritual complex.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Cenote
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Cenote
So is scuba diving them! Down you go into a going black hole, swimming through amazing caves (don’t let go of the rope!), the out the other side in a different cenote. Surreal experience
This was a disturbingly violent game, in which the losing team was often decapitated. Ritual killing was a big part of Mayan culture and tradition.
According to Atlas Obscura,
The Aztecs continued this proud tradition of loser‐lose‐all, as many vases and sculptures depict the inevitable decapitation of the losing team. There are even some depictions of ball players playing with the heads of the losers in place of a ball. Whether this actually occurred is up to artistic speculation. The Spanish who observed the game reported horrendous injuries to those who played it — deep bruising requiring lancing, broken bones, and even death when a player was hit in the head or by an unprotected bit by the heavy ball. (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meso-american-baseball)
According to Atlas Obscura,
The Aztecs continued this proud tradition of loser‐lose‐all, as many vases and sculptures depict the inevitable decapitation of the losing team. There are even some depictions of ball players playing with the heads of the losers in place of a ball. Whether this actually occurred is up to artistic speculation. The Spanish who observed the game reported horrendous injuries to those who played it — deep bruising requiring lancing, broken bones, and even death when a player was hit in the head or by an unprotected bit by the heavy ball. (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meso-american-baseball)
Howcome everything old we dig up get this "probably ritual use" stamp?
Because people misunderstand what archaeologists mean when they say "ritual."
Every morning, the first thing I do after getting up is go to the bathroom. That is a ritual. Watching the football game every week--ritual. Making your cup of coffee in the morning--ritual.
The disconnect is that most people understand "ritual" to have a religious or supernatural component, which none of the examples I've given have. Archaeologists do not understand "ritual" to need this component either. Also note that it is easier to identify the commonality of an object and its associated context than it is to identify what the object is and much, much easier than identifying why it is used.
In the context of the Mesoamerican ball game, there is abundant evidence that it is a 1200-year-old version of the NFL, although the biggest difference from modern sportsball is that the players seem to be poorly paid (if at all) from their teams and are more heavily reliant on their sponsorship income.
Every morning, the first thing I do after getting up is go to the bathroom. That is a ritual. Watching the football game every week--ritual. Making your cup of coffee in the morning--ritual.
The disconnect is that most people understand "ritual" to have a religious or supernatural component, which none of the examples I've given have. Archaeologists do not understand "ritual" to need this component either. Also note that it is easier to identify the commonality of an object and its associated context than it is to identify what the object is and much, much easier than identifying why it is used.
In the context of the Mesoamerican ball game, there is abundant evidence that it is a 1200-year-old version of the NFL, although the biggest difference from modern sportsball is that the players seem to be poorly paid (if at all) from their teams and are more heavily reliant on their sponsorship income.
I once went to an Ohio State football pre-game show where the band played and they had the players march through into the main stadium. Everyone was wearing the team colors, every song they played had these hand gestures and words you had to do and say along with the music, and there were all sorts of odd seemingly out of nowhere cheers and exclamations by the fans, the players and the various highly dressed up musicians and officials. If an alien species came down and observed it, I would be surprised if they didn't say this kind of thing had "ritual undertones".
What you're describing is a ritual in any interpretation of the word.
“Ritual use” is a term of art in archaeology. It refers to any object whose survival/economic use is not readily apparent. Basically, anything that isn’t a basic tool (and many things that are tools if they’re decorated) are considered ritual objects.
It doesn’t imply any religious purpose. Lots of what people do in life is composed of rituals. Morning coffee ritual, for example.
It doesn’t imply any religious purpose. Lots of what people do in life is composed of rituals. Morning coffee ritual, for example.
It is beyond ridiculous at this point, and serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore. Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for?
And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.
And a coffee maker is not for ritual use, it is for making coffee.
Where's the shame in admitting they don't know what an object was for?
They very often do know what the object is used for. It just doesn't have any economic/survival significance. For example, children's toys are labelled ritual objects.
This sort bulk classification via jargon exists elsewhere in science. For example, astronomers refer to all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium as metals. Should we ridicule astronomers for not knowing basic chemistry? Or should we accept that different fields have terms of art/jargon which are very useful for communicating among colleagues and are not intended to compete with the general usage of those words?
They very often do know what the object is used for. It just doesn't have any economic/survival significance. For example, children's toys are labelled ritual objects.
This sort bulk classification via jargon exists elsewhere in science. For example, astronomers refer to all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium as metals. Should we ridicule astronomers for not knowing basic chemistry? Or should we accept that different fields have terms of art/jargon which are very useful for communicating among colleagues and are not intended to compete with the general usage of those words?
They can use whatever jargon they please among each other, but this talk about "ritual purposes" and "ritual objects" are constantly used in popular science when presenting archeological finds. Children's toys are not ritual objects.
So your complaint is with popular science media not translating these terms of art into everyday language. Fair enough. But how does that warrant the claim that the use of these terms "serves to make people not take archeology seriously anymore"?
I think you could make a very, very compelling case that the process of making coffee is, for many people (especially those really into it), an important ritual which has a lot of significance beyond the specific output. Look at the discourse around the James Hoffman AeroPress saga and tell me that shit isn't insanely ritualized.
Nothing religious or spiritual (usually), but you get a lot of time/structure/cycle/morning/sleep/work semiology out of the coffee ritual. In fact, this is so true that coffee as a beverage has adopted significant phenomenological value external to its utility due to cultural osmosis - we have very strong associations between coffee and a variety of abstract qualities: work, awakeness, sleep deprivation, productivity, etc. And, these qualities are quite different between cultures even if the actual raw output/process of production are pretty much the same for many.
Nothing religious or spiritual (usually), but you get a lot of time/structure/cycle/morning/sleep/work semiology out of the coffee ritual. In fact, this is so true that coffee as a beverage has adopted significant phenomenological value external to its utility due to cultural osmosis - we have very strong associations between coffee and a variety of abstract qualities: work, awakeness, sleep deprivation, productivity, etc. And, these qualities are quite different between cultures even if the actual raw output/process of production are pretty much the same for many.
By your reasoning, would it be possible for a person to make herself a cup of coffee and drink it without you considering it to be ritually?
Yeah - there are a lot of tasks that we frequently do that don't have this kind of associated trappings (on a cultural level): opening a car door handle, tying shoes, etc.
Making coffee is much more susceptible to this kind of ritualmaking because of the implicit repetition, sequence and waiting qualities of the process. That said, there are people who engage with the process without any ritual - the patient in the dentist's waiting room who pops in a K-cup, the McDonalds worker who fills the McCafe order off a ticket, the spouse who runs out of tea and puts on a cup of their partner's coffee.
Making coffee is much more susceptible to this kind of ritualmaking because of the implicit repetition, sequence and waiting qualities of the process. That said, there are people who engage with the process without any ritual - the patient in the dentist's waiting room who pops in a K-cup, the McDonalds worker who fills the McCafe order off a ticket, the spouse who runs out of tea and puts on a cup of their partner's coffee.
OP said "morning coffee ritual", not the coffee maker.
Put yourself in the seat of someone coming to look at your house 1,000+ years after you died. Most things are gone but some things are intact. Our history and language was either wiped out or indiscernible. What would they find?
Well, in my house, here's a few things:
- they'd find that the softwood in my kitchen is much more worn than the rest of my house. We either spent a lot of time there or didn't care about it.
- they'd then find that there's bags of fragrant stuff by this steel machine with a pressurization cup that also has a steam wand.
- they'd find a water reservoir on the back of the machine.
- if I left in a hurry, they'd find cups scattered throughout the house, particularly in what looks like working areas.
- they'd find clean cups near the machine; some are plain but some are decorated!
Even from all this, they'd have to look at coffee beans to find out they're caffeinated, they'd need to determine the presence of sugar, spices, and the various types of milk humans use. The "morning coffee ritual" would still look pretty amalgamous, and lots of context as to what we did around it would be lost, but they'd get an idea around what it all was about.
Put yourself in the seat of someone coming to look at your house 1,000+ years after you died. Most things are gone but some things are intact. Our history and language was either wiped out or indiscernible. What would they find?
Well, in my house, here's a few things:
- they'd find that the softwood in my kitchen is much more worn than the rest of my house. We either spent a lot of time there or didn't care about it.
- they'd then find that there's bags of fragrant stuff by this steel machine with a pressurization cup that also has a steam wand.
- they'd find a water reservoir on the back of the machine.
- if I left in a hurry, they'd find cups scattered throughout the house, particularly in what looks like working areas.
- they'd find clean cups near the machine; some are plain but some are decorated!
Even from all this, they'd have to look at coffee beans to find out they're caffeinated, they'd need to determine the presence of sugar, spices, and the various types of milk humans use. The "morning coffee ritual" would still look pretty amalgamous, and lots of context as to what we did around it would be lost, but they'd get an idea around what it all was about.
If the person discovering these things is a real scientist, he will say he doesn't know what it was for. If he is not, he will say it was for ritual purposes and that the stupid 21st century people believed a spirit lived inside the machine.
> believed a spirit lived inside
Your own definition of "ritual".
I think that socratic contempt for religion used to be an absolute fringe. Only recently we can distinguish betwen scientific and unscientific. For eons, people, educated people, could only distinguish between traditional and weird.
That was their "knowledge" and they used what they had, because one needs to navigate their life somehow.
Your own definition of "ritual".
I think that socratic contempt for religion used to be an absolute fringe. Only recently we can distinguish betwen scientific and unscientific. For eons, people, educated people, could only distinguish between traditional and weird.
That was their "knowledge" and they used what they had, because one needs to navigate their life somehow.
You're expressing a kind of modern arrogance regarding past people that has no evidence. What makes you think that you know what and how ancient people thought? Maybe ancient people where much smarter and rational than the people of today? Considering they didn't eat toxins or spend hours each day being brain washed by a screen...
Equaling rituals with "stupid people believing in spirits" is arrogant. I don't say I know how they thought or how rational they were, but they sure didn't leave us any research on e.g. how to extend medium lifespan to 70.
The word "ritual" doesn't strictly have to do with religion or mysticism. Stand ups, retrospectives, and release ceremonies are also called rituals.
A humorous take on this is David Macaulay's Motel of the Mysteries
https://onlinecampus.fcps.edu/media2/Social_Studies/WHGII_20...
https://onlinecampus.fcps.edu/media2/Social_Studies/WHGII_20...
Everything new can get that stamp too: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Body_Ritual_among_the_Nacirem...
This is satire
Humans do a lot of stuff for ritual purposes
Yeah, but humans do lots of stuff just for fun too.
It was a serious question. I see this "probably ritual" a lot when reading about old things. I get the feeling that this comes from some older Hobbsian "brutish and short" view of how people lived. Like "since they where not as advanced and smart as us the must have been half starved all the time and coudn't possibly have a ball game just for the hell of it"
It was a serious question. I see this "probably ritual" a lot when reading about old things. I get the feeling that this comes from some older Hobbsian "brutish and short" view of how people lived. Like "since they where not as advanced and smart as us the must have been half starved all the time and coudn't possibly have a ball game just for the hell of it"
I believe it's that fact that it has survived for so long that it may have been treated with greater care and build quality than an everyday item. Of course it could have been an everyday object.
Does anyone have a source in how this can be used as a scoreboard? I only ask such a specific question because it seems like a very specific object to recognize it as.
I assume there would be some indicator placed next to a symbol around the edge but was a bit disappointed to see nothing describing it in the article. Maybe too obvious to state?
I assume there would be some indicator placed next to a symbol around the edge but was a bit disappointed to see nothing describing it in the article. Maybe too obvious to state?
The real interest is where it was found. There's so many sites that are not able to be excavated due to the limit of efficiency of the Mexican government and a very select few universities, after the pilfering of colleges in the northern hemisphere
More and higher resolution images, including something highlighting the figures: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/mexicos-chichen-itza-...
INAH's release: https://www.inah.gob.mx/boletines/con-su-texto-jeroglifico-m...
INAH's release: https://www.inah.gob.mx/boletines/con-su-texto-jeroglifico-m...
Anybody in the Southwest of the U.S. may be interested to know that the northernmost known ballcourt for this game is at the Wupatki National Monument in Arizona, an absolutely incredible and very under visited location.
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=41696
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=41696
Apparently, the score was:
Chelsea - Ajax 4-4
Happy weekend everybody! :)
Chelsea - Ajax 4-4
Happy weekend everybody! :)
Every time I hear about something ancient being discovered that has writing on it, I immediately ask What does it say?! I realize it may take a lot of time and effort to decipher these things, but I think we have a pretty good handle on most Maya writing.
Those stone carvers must be fast, since they were presumably doing it in realtime. /s
Seriously, it's not a scoreboard.
Seriously, it's not a scoreboard.
How/where specifically did they find it in such a high-traffic tourist destination? What does it say?