Xiaomi 13 Ultra: “Real camera” phone makes Samsung, Apple shake nervously(phonearena.com)
phonearena.com
Xiaomi 13 Ultra: “Real camera” phone makes Samsung, Apple shake nervously
https://www.phonearena.com/news/xiaomi-13-ultra-android-real-camera-phone-makes-samsung-apple-shake-nervously_id147012
52 comments
That's ok, US government will ban them for security reasons if it turns out their products are competitive in their market.
What has the US banned besides Huawei? It's tit for tat anyway, China has banned order of magnitude more US products.
Can you link to a source of the banned hardware products?
Well, first, Cisco router, then TPM chips, then most of foreign hardware in government offices. I won't even mention Raytheon and Lockheed stuff.
Also, you are making a bad faith argument. The topic was in "product". You specifically tried to gate it to "hardware". China is the producer of most hardware in the world. They aren't going to ban stuff that was made by them. Software product on the other hand, aren't really their forte until recently and that they banned plenty.
Also, you are making a bad faith argument. The topic was in "product". You specifically tried to gate it to "hardware". China is the producer of most hardware in the world. They aren't going to ban stuff that was made by them. Software product on the other hand, aren't really their forte until recently and that they banned plenty.
a question as innocuous as this is a "bad faith argument"? We are in a thread about Xiaomi _hardware_, but nefarious intentions are more probable to you than someone just having the original subject in mind?
True. Perhaps I should have been more generous in interpreting intentions. Difficult change my habit though when there are accounts whose posts are completely dedicated to defending China's actions, even in egregious matters like Hong Kong and Tibet.
I tried giving them benefits of the doubt before, it never went anywhere. Maybe here it is different. I guess I can try again.
I tried giving them benefits of the doubt before, it never went anywhere. Maybe here it is different. I guess I can try again.
Anyone can click on the profile and see this is a pseudonym account made 70 days ago.
Anyone can also check my account's been around since 2014 and links to my personal blog, twitter, etc.
So it's clear to most readers what the relative likelihood of attempted trolling is.
I will take the charitable view that there's real person behind the account who didn't bother to check before writing.
Anyone can also check my account's been around since 2014 and links to my personal blog, twitter, etc.
So it's clear to most readers what the relative likelihood of attempted trolling is.
I will take the charitable view that there's real person behind the account who didn't bother to check before writing.
You are free to use your real name and connect your real life to social media. I don't and have no need to. You are also free to check every post history of everyone you interact with. I don't have that amount of time. And I am free to call out a bad argument when I see one. If you had practiced the checking post history properly, you would have noticed that account age and karma rarely correlate to anything.
You are also free to respond to the other comment I made to your post and not jumping to another one. These remarks are not specifically for you. Go take a look at the account I replied to above yours to see why I said that.
You are also free to respond to the other comment I made to your post and not jumping to another one. These remarks are not specifically for you. Go take a look at the account I replied to above yours to see why I said that.
This seems incoherent. If you have a point to make, write it down in a way readers can understand, else given the bizarre prior comment, it only increases the perception of bizarreness.
In the context of Huawei or Xiaomi it can only mean hardware products, since neither sold any stand-alone software product to consumers in the U.S.
At least not any that I'm aware of?
At least not any that I'm aware of?
>It's tit for tat anyway, China has banned order of magnitude more US products.
The context in this specific part is about the retaliations between countries. It has expanded beyond just one company when you start talking about entire economies fighting each other.
Besides, I already gave you the US hardware that China banned.
The context in this specific part is about the retaliations between countries. It has expanded beyond just one company when you start talking about entire economies fighting each other.
Besides, I already gave you the US hardware that China banned.
> Cisco routers
As far as I can tell news reports suggest their not invited to bid on government and SoE contracts, but their China revenue is far from zero so they obviously have not been banned from consumer or regular business sales.
Considering that cisco.cn works, is publicily accessible, recently updated, and lists some products, this 'ban' seems impossible to believe: https://www.cisco.com/site/cn/zh/index.html
Where did you source this information?
As far as I can tell news reports suggest their not invited to bid on government and SoE contracts, but their China revenue is far from zero so they obviously have not been banned from consumer or regular business sales.
Considering that cisco.cn works, is publicily accessible, recently updated, and lists some products, this 'ban' seems impossible to believe: https://www.cisco.com/site/cn/zh/index.html
Where did you source this information?
The US doesn't make hardware. It makes software and China has banned plenty of it.
Basically every big name software maker in the US has faced or is under a Chinese ban by now.
Basically every big name software maker in the US has faced or is under a Chinese ban by now.
That's not new though? There's been restrictions on software products since the 1990s and probably even earlier.
Such as the ban on export of cryptography software.
What was attention grabbing in the last few years with Huawei was that physical tangible consumer products you could hold in your hands were banned.
Such as the ban on export of cryptography software.
What was attention grabbing in the last few years with Huawei was that physical tangible consumer products you could hold in your hands were banned.
You are mixing several unrelated concepts.
The cryptography export restriction was a US initiative with obvious reasons.
The software bans I am talking about are from the Chinese side. For example China's bans on sites like google.
What Chinese consumer hardware manufacturers did recently (or rather, finally got noticed doing recently) is making their devices into spying toeholds in other countries. Even if nothing of interest to the Chinese takes place on your 17 year old daughter's phone, it's still on your home LAN exposed to the potential large attack surface area of Mom's work devices.
Or even worse, imagine a Chinese government ear permanently installed in the middle of our 5g infrastructure.
The ideology of the US government does not align with that of the Chinese government. Hasn't for a very long time. The only surprising thing about this whole situation is how long the US went along with Chinese shenanigans. I would have slammed the door on China over 20 years ago.
The cryptography export restriction was a US initiative with obvious reasons.
The software bans I am talking about are from the Chinese side. For example China's bans on sites like google.
What Chinese consumer hardware manufacturers did recently (or rather, finally got noticed doing recently) is making their devices into spying toeholds in other countries. Even if nothing of interest to the Chinese takes place on your 17 year old daughter's phone, it's still on your home LAN exposed to the potential large attack surface area of Mom's work devices.
Or even worse, imagine a Chinese government ear permanently installed in the middle of our 5g infrastructure.
The ideology of the US government does not align with that of the Chinese government. Hasn't for a very long time. The only surprising thing about this whole situation is how long the US went along with Chinese shenanigans. I would have slammed the door on China over 20 years ago.
That is my point? Governments restricting software, features, etc., whether for export or import, has been the norm for decades.
Restricting hardware technology devices is a much newer phenomena.
Perhaps the closest tech analogues with a longer history would be how CNC milling machines are controlled, which has been the case since the 90s too.
Restricting hardware technology devices is a much newer phenomena.
Perhaps the closest tech analogues with a longer history would be how CNC milling machines are controlled, which has been the case since the 90s too.
Hardware is just a thing for software to run on.
These aren't computers where you can just run your own stuff (hopefully). These are phones with embedded firmware and an OS that almost no consumer will change. We can call it hardware but it's clearly a software delivery vector instead.
These aren't computers where you can just run your own stuff (hopefully). These are phones with embedded firmware and an OS that almost no consumer will change. We can call it hardware but it's clearly a software delivery vector instead.
> These are phones with embedded firmware and an OS that almost no consumer will change. We can call it hardware but it's clearly a software delivery vector instead.
This also applies to modern CNC milling machines. But I don't think anyone would consider them as such.
This also applies to modern CNC milling machines. But I don't think anyone would consider them as such.
That’s what China does, so it seems fair.
Samsung made a series of actual camera-phones about a decade ago, the Galaxy Camera
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/0677420709/samsung-announces...
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/0677420709/samsung-announces...
I guess the one with the actual M mount didn't work out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZm4gg5CvWc)
I doubt this is going to make Apple "shake nervously" (LOL), but props to Xiaomi for coming out with a phone that has a big sensor (1-inch, same size as the Sony RX100) capable of optical bokeh, and four high-quality Leica lenses with full-frame-equivalent focal lengths ranging from 12mm to 240mm.
There's a market for it. Here's the official announcement:
https://www.mi.com/global/discover/article?id=2922
There's a market for it. Here's the official announcement:
https://www.mi.com/global/discover/article?id=2922
I don’t know why non-photographers need phones with super powerful camera features. It would be nice if these manufacturers put serious effort into improving battery performance instead of camera stuff. Tired of my phone battery charge lasting not even a day
Simply put: people want to preserve high quality memories of their lives, and better cameras make better photos/videos.
With that said, a “real camera” phone seems most likely to attract customers with specific photography goals, so there’s no reason to conclude that these phones are for people who don’t share those goals.
Neither does the creation of photography-focused phones have much bearing on the existence of phones with good batteries.
Single anecdote, but I charge my iPhone every 2-3 days depending on how heavily I use it, and it still manages to take excellent pictures.
With that said, a “real camera” phone seems most likely to attract customers with specific photography goals, so there’s no reason to conclude that these phones are for people who don’t share those goals.
Neither does the creation of photography-focused phones have much bearing on the existence of phones with good batteries.
Single anecdote, but I charge my iPhone every 2-3 days depending on how heavily I use it, and it still manages to take excellent pictures.
Well, my phone battery usually lasts the full day, even though the battery is old/ degraded. I’m fairly certain most others do too. If you have an iPhone the magnetic battery works great. If you prefer android, there are plenty of phones with bulky batteries. Plus, it’s not like battery engineering and camera engineering are even remotely the same skill sets
What phone do you have that doesn’t even last a day?
Any that's over two years old.
I'm very frustrated with the battery on my Samsung S21. Smartphones now improve at a glacial, minutely iterative pace, so for the first time, I see no compelling reasons to upgrade -- except due to the total lack of battery health management, the battery is by now basically ruined. I'll try for a replacement.
I'm very frustrated with the battery on my Samsung S21. Smartphones now improve at a glacial, minutely iterative pace, so for the first time, I see no compelling reasons to upgrade -- except due to the total lack of battery health management, the battery is by now basically ruined. I'll try for a replacement.
Well, mostly nobody need what high-end smartphones offer.
Cheaper smartphones (say, in the low hundreds of bucks range) cover 100% of the needs of the average user.
Still, a lot of people buy the high end ones. My conclusion is that people like expensive toys (especially true when it comes to iPhones)
So, nothing wrong about Xiaomi going after that market. It certainly exists.
Cheaper smartphones (say, in the low hundreds of bucks range) cover 100% of the needs of the average user.
Still, a lot of people buy the high end ones. My conclusion is that people like expensive toys (especially true when it comes to iPhones)
So, nothing wrong about Xiaomi going after that market. It certainly exists.
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In the side-by-side comparison, I found Apple's results much better.
Of course that's personal taste but they should have put in better comparisons IMO.
Of course that's personal taste but they should have put in better comparisons IMO.
I saw some iphone pictures for the first time recently at a family event (I have a very old phone and don't take many pictures). They looked fine and I'd say more "professional" when zoomed out buy zoomed in they looked horrible and you could see all kinds of artifacts from whatever enhancement algorithms they use. For posting selfies on Instagram, iPhone is probably better, but for pictures of family for posterity I'd rather have the less processed version. That's what they're trying to show I belive.
Most of them have artifacts.. I prefer actual physics to do depth of field
If LineageOS gets ported to this I'm 100% getting one.
Before you do so make sure that the camera is useable under LineageOS as that is not always the case, especially when it comes to more "advanced" features which are only available when using stock firmware and the stock camera app.
“Interestingly, despite packing four large camera sensors on its back and a 5000 mAh battery, the Xiaomi 13 Ultra isn’t bigger or heavier than a Galaxy S23 Ultra or an iPhone 14 Pro Max.”
If by bigger you consider only 2 dimensions, sure.
If by bigger you consider only 2 dimensions, sure.
Also “not bigger than the largest iPhone available” isn’t exactly small.
I expected real camera lens in a "real camera" phone instead of multiple tiny lenses covered by a shield that introduces its own problems.
All camera lenses are real lenses. When the lens is not interchangeable, and the sensor is small (while huge compared to a normal smartphone, this is tiny compares to a camera), the lens really does not have to be that big.
Being behind a shield is also not itself weird - many people use filters as front element protection on interchangeable lens cameras. Nothing different there.
Being behind a shield is also not itself weird - many people use filters as front element protection on interchangeable lens cameras. Nothing different there.
When I bought my Xperia Pro-1, I hacked together a custom case for it that has a 67-72mm step ring grafted over a circular hole where the cameras and flash are. Normally I just have a clear glass ("UV protector") filter there.[1] The result looks a lot like Xiaomi's phone, but I can replace the glass if it gets damaged. Not sure if that's an option for their phone.
There are some side-effects. Sometimes there will be flicker from the flash (or maybe the active focus sensor?) that's reflected in the glass. Because phone cameras have such tiny apertures, dust and debris is more likely to be visible on the filter than on a full-size camera. I'm sure Leica can do a better job than me at minimizing those issues, but I wouldn't be sure they're non-existent.
[1] But of course it also works for circular polarizers, IR-bandpass filters, or anything else that comes in 72mm camera filter form.
There are some side-effects. Sometimes there will be flicker from the flash (or maybe the active focus sensor?) that's reflected in the glass. Because phone cameras have such tiny apertures, dust and debris is more likely to be visible on the filter than on a full-size camera. I'm sure Leica can do a better job than me at minimizing those issues, but I wouldn't be sure they're non-existent.
[1] But of course it also works for circular polarizers, IR-bandpass filters, or anything else that comes in 72mm camera filter form.
The bigest problem is the jpeg compression though. For some reason, Android defaults to a shitty compression ratio for jpeg which you cannot change.
Reminds me the "fuck you project" by Nokia's engineers from the period when the company had been burning down - Nokia 808 PureView.
So we've gone back 10 years to the era of the S4 Zoom [1] but we don't even get the nice zooming and optical qualities of a point and shoot?
Call it innovation, I guess...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S4_Zoom
Call it innovation, I guess...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S4_Zoom
Nitpick: the author claims there hasn't been a camera-style grip available for phones since 2013, but Sony's Xperia Pro-1(I?)[1] can be used with their Bluetooth grip.[2]
The Pro-1 was designed with a similar goal - try to make a pretty solid point-and-shoot camera in a phone form factor - and IMO it was fairly successful. It doesn't capture images as vividly (especially in low light) as phones that do more post-processing, but the results are also more genuine. It can save in JPEG+RAW like a serious camera. Like the other Xperias I've had, it's close to the stock Android, and there are only a few annoying changes/non-removable apps.
I'm curious if Xiaomi is able to do better here, especially with more room in the case.
[1] I own one,and I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be the number 1, a Roman numeral I, the letter I, a vertical pipe, or something else.
[2] e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1669529-REG/sony_xper...
The Pro-1 was designed with a similar goal - try to make a pretty solid point-and-shoot camera in a phone form factor - and IMO it was fairly successful. It doesn't capture images as vividly (especially in low light) as phones that do more post-processing, but the results are also more genuine. It can save in JPEG+RAW like a serious camera. Like the other Xperias I've had, it's close to the stock Android, and there are only a few annoying changes/non-removable apps.
I'm curious if Xiaomi is able to do better here, especially with more room in the case.
[1] I own one,and I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be the number 1, a Roman numeral I, the letter I, a vertical pipe, or something else.
[2] e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1669529-REG/sony_xper...
Looks like a product launch of a phone with the new Sony IMX989 1" sensor. Some other phones have it to:
Xiaomi 13 Pro
Xiaomi 12S/Ultra
Vivo X90 Pro+
Sharp Aquos R6 AKA Leitz Phone 1
Aquos R7
Xperia Pro-I
According to: https://curioussteve.com/tech/explained/sony-imx989-explaine...
Also: Oppo Find X6 Pro
Xiaomi 13 Pro
Xiaomi 12S/Ultra
Vivo X90 Pro+
Sharp Aquos R6 AKA Leitz Phone 1
Aquos R7
Xperia Pro-I
According to: https://curioussteve.com/tech/explained/sony-imx989-explaine...
Also: Oppo Find X6 Pro
It feels like Xiaomi is chasing a market that doesn’t really exist. Smartphone cameras are good enough for most people. And for folks who want more, mirrorless and DSLRs start cheap and much, much better.
Even worse, this phone looks to use the same small sensors and small lenses all smartphones are saddled with. A bulkier form factor and slapping Leica’s logo doesn’t make a “real” camera. Big sensors and big lenses do.
Even worse, this phone looks to use the same small sensors and small lenses all smartphones are saddled with. A bulkier form factor and slapping Leica’s logo doesn’t make a “real” camera. Big sensors and big lenses do.
I am inclined to agree, but I applaud the effort. It is worth investigating the size of this market, which might be large enough to support a few of these phones. It might even push the technology envelope further so that standard smartphones gain some of the benefits of these niche camera-phones.
Not sure about that. A lot of us non-photographers do care about taking nice pictures and videos but don't really want to get into DSLRs because you never seem to have them around when you need them.
These days though most people don't care about more pixels, but better filters. There's still a ways to go before smartphone cameras get there. (imagine building in Moment-type lenses in smartphone cameras).
These days though most people don't care about more pixels, but better filters. There's still a ways to go before smartphone cameras get there. (imagine building in Moment-type lenses in smartphone cameras).
I agree. The only real use for more pixels is for crop-to-zoom. I want big glass and big sensors so we can get real bokeh.
My ideal phone camera would be a single APS-C sized sensor replacing all three current iPhone cameras. The lens should be a f1.2, 50mm equivalent pancake. Yes that’s hard to do, but using fancy fresnel lenses and a pile of CPU to correct things I bet you could make it work. Make the sensor ~30 megapixels so you can digital zoom.
Add a mount that includes communication so if you want you can add fancy lenses and they can be active parts of the autofocus system.
This design actually competes with low-end mirrorless and is probably even possible to build (the lens might be pushing what’s possible, but I bet we can get close).
My ideal phone camera would be a single APS-C sized sensor replacing all three current iPhone cameras. The lens should be a f1.2, 50mm equivalent pancake. Yes that’s hard to do, but using fancy fresnel lenses and a pile of CPU to correct things I bet you could make it work. Make the sensor ~30 megapixels so you can digital zoom.
Add a mount that includes communication so if you want you can add fancy lenses and they can be active parts of the autofocus system.
This design actually competes with low-end mirrorless and is probably even possible to build (the lens might be pushing what’s possible, but I bet we can get close).
Every time I see one of these phones with a bunch of little cellphone lenses on the back, it just makes me wish the Light L16 had worked out.
It's interesting, and hopefully more companies will go in this direction, but 1" is still quite a bit smaller than even a M4/3 sensor, and I had really hoped for interchangeable lenses when it said "real camera".