Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)(frontiersin.org)
frontiersin.org
Paper vs. devices: Brain activation differences during memory retrieval (2021)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2021.634158/full
119 comments
> One side issue on these studies is there's currently no control group who spent their life solely on electronic devices.
I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later.
Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes something deep in my mind. No, e-paper and stylus is not the same for me, either.
I finish two notebooks per year.
I’m a statistic of one, but I started my digital mobile life on PalmOS/Handspring devices. I still prefer pen and paper for deep-thinking and future planning, despite having them reflected in a digital medium later.
Tactility of paper, plus not being subject to a glowing screen apparently changes something deep in my mind. No, e-paper and stylus is not the same for me, either.
I finish two notebooks per year.
I think everyone kind of feels like paper has some benefit, but it's mostly like excercise.
Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand.
Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effort methods.
I love the idea of using pen and paper.... but... pen and paper are more objects to manage that can be lost and add to the clutter which is currently one of the bigger sources of stress in my life.
Short term it's a hassle, and whatever you're doing will take time to see results, and... the phone is right there, frictionless, already in your hand.
Plus, to find motivation to use pen and paper, you have to have a project, which isn't just work(That is often inherently digital) which you care about enough to use high-effort methods.
I love the idea of using pen and paper.... but... pen and paper are more objects to manage that can be lost and add to the clutter which is currently one of the bigger sources of stress in my life.
While to each is their own, I don't think so.
I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too.
The phone is not frictionless, because at the end tap/click depth is much more when using a digital device when compared to pen and paper. I always put stalls into my mind flow, because you need to at least add some keyboard shortcuts or taps while streaming your knowledge to something digital. Paper doesn't have that kind of friction. Just dump it down. Markdown provides some good middle ground, but it's not completely intrerrupt-free either.
A small A5 or 17x24cm notebook doesn't take a place in your daily backpack, neither a good, run of the mill flight-safe roller.
Digital organization has its perks and uses which can't be and shouldn't be ignored when the data volume one manages passes a certain threshold, but pen and paper is irreplaceable in my mind. Because the uninterrupted workflow and the pacing it provides works as a great regulatory aid for me. It doesn't run out of battery, has much faster random access, do not tax my eyes much, and last but not the least, prevents carpal tunnel.
I have spent and still spend a lot of time on digital document and task management systems. I have considerable note and project troves in Evernote and Pagico. In reality, long term memory provided by Pagico is a great complement to pen and paper workflow of me, because I bake longer term plans into Pagico, and use that tool everyday, too.
The phone is not frictionless, because at the end tap/click depth is much more when using a digital device when compared to pen and paper. I always put stalls into my mind flow, because you need to at least add some keyboard shortcuts or taps while streaming your knowledge to something digital. Paper doesn't have that kind of friction. Just dump it down. Markdown provides some good middle ground, but it's not completely intrerrupt-free either.
A small A5 or 17x24cm notebook doesn't take a place in your daily backpack, neither a good, run of the mill flight-safe roller.
Digital organization has its perks and uses which can't be and shouldn't be ignored when the data volume one manages passes a certain threshold, but pen and paper is irreplaceable in my mind. Because the uninterrupted workflow and the pacing it provides works as a great regulatory aid for me. It doesn't run out of battery, has much faster random access, do not tax my eyes much, and last but not the least, prevents carpal tunnel.
The times when I actually bother getting up off my butt and picking up a pen, I do notice a lot of productivity.. almost entirely because you can't click away to Facebook every minute, and it doesn't show you anything that reminds me of the fact I could be scrolling dumb crap.
I spend a lot of time thinking about each individual letter and stroke to have any chance of legibility though, and was very slow even when I was practicing heavily as a teen(I heard GEDs were subconsciously scored based on penmanship, even though they're not supposed to, and wanted to give myself an advantage).
There's also a small security issue, Google can probably read Google Keep, but people I actually know can read paper if I leave it behind, so I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of private journal, unless it was something that never left the house.
It can also be lost and there's no instant sync, plus there's no reminder feature, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything critical, that's just making myself a single point of failure in my own life, even if the paper itself is reliable.
The productivity gains are noticable enough that it definitely does seem like there's real value there though, despite the extra work.
If I get stuck on a problem, I pull out my Boogie Board(Not quite paper but great for throwaway notes).
I also like to use my A5 binder notebook in meetings, especially if I'm new to a group, or it's a casual discussion that's not highly technical, almost as part of my wardrobe.
It gives transparency that I'm actually paying attention, not scrolling Hacker News, as opposed to a screen only I can see, and it doesn't break immersion if we're talking about a project that doesn't involve tech, like building something that's meant to feel old fashioned.
I spend a lot of time thinking about each individual letter and stroke to have any chance of legibility though, and was very slow even when I was practicing heavily as a teen(I heard GEDs were subconsciously scored based on penmanship, even though they're not supposed to, and wanted to give myself an advantage).
There's also a small security issue, Google can probably read Google Keep, but people I actually know can read paper if I leave it behind, so I wouldn't want to use it for any kind of private journal, unless it was something that never left the house.
It can also be lost and there's no instant sync, plus there's no reminder feature, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything critical, that's just making myself a single point of failure in my own life, even if the paper itself is reliable.
The productivity gains are noticable enough that it definitely does seem like there's real value there though, despite the extra work.
If I get stuck on a problem, I pull out my Boogie Board(Not quite paper but great for throwaway notes).
I also like to use my A5 binder notebook in meetings, especially if I'm new to a group, or it's a casual discussion that's not highly technical, almost as part of my wardrobe.
It gives transparency that I'm actually paying attention, not scrolling Hacker News, as opposed to a screen only I can see, and it doesn't break immersion if we're talking about a project that doesn't involve tech, like building something that's meant to feel old fashioned.
> Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper.
My kid takes tests on the computer. And when I was in law school almost 20 years ago, students mostly took notes on computers, and tests were computerized as well.
I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand.
My kid takes tests on the computer. And when I was in law school almost 20 years ago, students mostly took notes on computers, and tests were computerized as well.
I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand.
> I will note that when I was studying for the bar I found it incredibly helpful to re-write my daily lecture notes by hand.
I had the same experience while in college, pseudo code, simulating algorithms or rough design schemas were easier done on paper.
Fast forward today, paper brings too much friction in the process, especially as I lost a ton of wtiting dexterity vs computer muscle memory, and figjam or diagram drawing tools work better.
My anecdotal case comes from being bad at paper in the first place, but I wouldn't be surprised to see kids develop in ways that adapt to the primary tools they are given, and be good on digital screens if that's what they need for the rest of their scholar life.
I had the same experience while in college, pseudo code, simulating algorithms or rough design schemas were easier done on paper.
Fast forward today, paper brings too much friction in the process, especially as I lost a ton of wtiting dexterity vs computer muscle memory, and figjam or diagram drawing tools work better.
My anecdotal case comes from being bad at paper in the first place, but I wouldn't be surprised to see kids develop in ways that adapt to the primary tools they are given, and be good on digital screens if that's what they need for the rest of their scholar life.
The general hypothesis is that increases in the count of modalities used and intensity of use within each modality for a task is, by definition, an increased engagement, more completely triggering the adaptive mechanisms such as memory and providing a more pervasive context into which the learning can be woven.
I think “solely on electronic devices” will never happen. But, even ~10 years ago I had friends in college who did all of their note taking on laptops. I sure there are kids who do the same nowadays, right?
I assume 20 years ago "desk work without ever touching paper" would also have fallen into the "will never happen" bucket, but here we are.
Hand writing will always be there somewhere, but paper going away doesn't feel unconceivable to me.
There is a strong counter reaction to tablets ("screens") and it's still costly (looking at the 12"9 ipad...), heavy and and cumbersome, so small kids today who do most of their writing on digital device would be a crazy small minority.
Hand writing will always be there somewhere, but paper going away doesn't feel unconceivable to me.
There is a strong counter reaction to tablets ("screens") and it's still costly (looking at the 12"9 ipad...), heavy and and cumbersome, so small kids today who do most of their writing on digital device would be a crazy small minority.
Does it matter? I know you won’t prove “physical note taking is objectively better in every scenario” but you can still answer the question “which is better for humans who live and work today”.
One thing I love about my reMarkable tablet is that I get all the benefits of manual handwriting and sketches, enhanced by and combined with digital flexibility (copy/paste, resize, undo/redo, tags/metadata, search, retrieval, PKB integ and interop, etc).
The only thing I miss is the ability to spread my papers in front of me to think with a global view and mix them and play with them with ease.
This is something I never found in any digital product where paper is unbeatable.
This is something I never found in any digital product where paper is unbeatable.
This could be achieved with VR although I don’t know of anything product doing this now.
VR resolution is far too poor at the moment in my opinion.
At the office, I use 7200x2560 @ 144Hz (5x 27" vertical). It'll be a few years before we see VR as a competitive alternative.
At the office, I use 7200x2560 @ 144Hz (5x 27" vertical). It'll be a few years before we see VR as a competitive alternative.
It would be amazing to have a VR app that allows you to write virtually anywhere in the space and be able to manipulate virtual papers and organize them around ourselves. It's actually a good product idea.
With the evolution of the hand tracking mechanism that could probably be done today.
The resolution of the screens doesn't scare me, the evolution since the first headset from Meta for example has been pretty amazing and the refresh rate as well.
With the evolution of the hand tracking mechanism that could probably be done today.
The resolution of the screens doesn't scare me, the evolution since the first headset from Meta for example has been pretty amazing and the refresh rate as well.
> I don’t know of anything product doing this now.
I suspect there is no technology really capable of doing this well yet, let alone product.
I suspect there is no technology really capable of doing this well yet, let alone product.
But then you have to wear a VR headset.
which we might all be wearing in a few decades or have it integrated in our eyes.
I've seen so many sci-fi concepts of smart ink on paper. Something you can leaf through like a book, but the ink can be changed electronically. I wonder if we'll ever get that.
I love my eink tablet, and it's definitely better and more comfortable than my laptop screen or phone. But for some reason, actual paper still seems even better. I'm an academic: if I really want to study a difficult paper hard, I print it out.
How does an iPad with an Apple Pencil compare?
They both have pretty good palm rejection and stylus pressure sensitivity.
For writing feel, the iPad gives you a lot of options from slick glass (the default) to many different screen protectors with different trade offs for writing friction, glare, and screen clarity. The Remarkable screen doesn't have as many options, but you might not miss them. The screen is very nice to write on.
For functionality, the iPad is much more advanced. It's faster (less pen latency), has fantastic text recognition, built in camera (which is great for capturing whiteboards), color, slightly higher resolution, etc... You also have more options for note taking apps. I personally use GoodNotes and Procreate for almost everything.
The biggest drawback for me with the Remarkable is the small screen. The big iPad has a screen close to A4 size which is fantastic for reading and marking up documents. The smaller Remarkable screen forces you to either shrink the document or do a lot of panning. There are 13" eink screens (like the Quaderno) and I hope the next generation of Remarkable devices offer it as an option.
For writing feel, the iPad gives you a lot of options from slick glass (the default) to many different screen protectors with different trade offs for writing friction, glare, and screen clarity. The Remarkable screen doesn't have as many options, but you might not miss them. The screen is very nice to write on.
For functionality, the iPad is much more advanced. It's faster (less pen latency), has fantastic text recognition, built in camera (which is great for capturing whiteboards), color, slightly higher resolution, etc... You also have more options for note taking apps. I personally use GoodNotes and Procreate for almost everything.
The biggest drawback for me with the Remarkable is the small screen. The big iPad has a screen close to A4 size which is fantastic for reading and marking up documents. The smaller Remarkable screen forces you to either shrink the document or do a lot of panning. There are 13" eink screens (like the Quaderno) and I hope the next generation of Remarkable devices offer it as an option.
I haven't used the remarkable but I bought a screen protector for my iPad that's intended to yield a paper-like writing and drawing experience when using the Apple pencil. It gets pretty close I think.
N.B. if you go this route you'd need to replace the Apple pencil tips a bit more regularly than you otherwise would given the rougher surface you're "writing" on.
N.B. if you go this route you'd need to replace the Apple pencil tips a bit more regularly than you otherwise would given the rougher surface you're "writing" on.
Interested in which one you’ve found works best to recreate the paper experience?
I thought for a long time that I’d like some sort of Epaper tablet. But I eventually gave up on that idea because I realized I like my particular (not even that fancy, just familiar) mechanical pencil that I’ve been using for ages.
I wonder if that is a well known or widespread phenomenon. The people who would be most enthusiastic about a particular type of device are the most invested in the previous solution, so replacing it for the seemingly “best” customers is a surprisingly high bar.
I wonder if that is a well known or widespread phenomenon. The people who would be most enthusiastic about a particular type of device are the most invested in the previous solution, so replacing it for the seemingly “best” customers is a surprisingly high bar.
I'm 100% in agreement with you.
After decades I finally settled on my preferred mechanical pencil brand. I'm not usually into new technology but these tablets have brought out a sense of excitement I rarely get. After trying them out though it's just not quite there for me. I still prefer my mechanical pencil and sketchbook.
A quality e-ink tablet simultaneously feels so close and so far away.
FWIW the mechanical pencil I've gravitated to is the pentel graphhear series
After decades I finally settled on my preferred mechanical pencil brand. I'm not usually into new technology but these tablets have brought out a sense of excitement I rarely get. After trying them out though it's just not quite there for me. I still prefer my mechanical pencil and sketchbook.
A quality e-ink tablet simultaneously feels so close and so far away.
FWIW the mechanical pencil I've gravitated to is the pentel graphhear series
Interesting. How is the integration of the reMarkable into other ecosystems? Can notes be converted to text and used elsewhere easily? (e.g. Nextcloud or Markdown docs)?
They have their own cloud service, but the remarkable runs some kind of *nix.
You can ssh to it over usb-c. They even give you the root password.
Check out awesome-remarkable. I’m sure there’s a way to get next cloud syncing working
Check out awesome-remarkable. I’m sure there’s a way to get next cloud syncing working
I self-host rmfakecloud. Let’s me back it up and not share the data. Lots you can do with it from there, though I mainly do it for privacy.
https://github.com/ddvk/rmfakecloud
https://github.com/ddvk/rmfakecloud
As a big reMarkable fan, my first thought was how much the results would apply to "digital paper". I can't think of any reason why writing on its paper-like surface wouldn't confer the same benefits.
Would love to hear how your PKB integration works!
Would love to hear how your PKB integration works!
NB: this is a Japanese study.
The participants wrote their notes in Japanese.
If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand.
In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you.
Therefore, more cognitive effort is required to write on paper than on device.
It is fairly accepted that greater cognitive effort (either to encode or to retrieve) is associated with greater recall.
So I would doubt the transferability of this result to western context.
The participants wrote their notes in Japanese.
If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand.
In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you.
Therefore, more cognitive effort is required to write on paper than on device.
It is fairly accepted that greater cognitive effort (either to encode or to retrieve) is associated with greater recall.
So I would doubt the transferability of this result to western context.
> If you write on paper, you need to write out each character by hand.
Exactly like English or French. You also need to remember the correct sequence of letters (see my remark below).
> In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you.
Exactly like English or French. I didn't write half of the letters used to type this comment.
I think you are searching for Japanese exceptionalism where it probably doesn't apply. Remembering the correct kanji, and graphy of said kanji is pretty much the same as remembering the (wild) orthography of French or English words. I'm searching quite often if a letter is a 'a' or 'e' (doesn't help that cognates between French and English often swap those), the conjugation of a verb or if a letter is doubled or not (again often not the same for related words, for example ennemi vs enemy).
Your perception of the difficulty in-between writing systems is twisted by the decades of education you got in the said system vs the few years of learning another system with a second language. When I see some soup of letters in Japan, it's clear that the question is not just about one system being more simple than the other.
Exactly like English or French. You also need to remember the correct sequence of letters (see my remark below).
> In contrast, if you write on a tablet or other device, the input system will sort of "autocomplete" for you.
Exactly like English or French. I didn't write half of the letters used to type this comment.
I think you are searching for Japanese exceptionalism where it probably doesn't apply. Remembering the correct kanji, and graphy of said kanji is pretty much the same as remembering the (wild) orthography of French or English words. I'm searching quite often if a letter is a 'a' or 'e' (doesn't help that cognates between French and English often swap those), the conjugation of a verb or if a letter is doubled or not (again often not the same for related words, for example ennemi vs enemy).
Your perception of the difficulty in-between writing systems is twisted by the decades of education you got in the said system vs the few years of learning another system with a second language. When I see some soup of letters in Japan, it's clear that the question is not just about one system being more simple than the other.
Character amnesia is a unique phenomenon to hanzi/kanji and is absolutely incomparable to English and French orthography. Native Chinese and Japanese speakers learn characters largely through muscle memory, which deteriorates rapidly if you don’t regularly write by hand. Many university-educated adults are unable to write a supermaket shopping list without hesitation.[1] Conversely, in English I learn difficult spellings (Gloucestershire, syzygy, rhythm) by aural-mnemonic tricks which stick around in my memory essentially forever.
Whether this had any effect in this study, I don’t know, but it certainly seems relevant that the experience of writing by hand in Japanese is utterly different to any alphabetic script.
[1] Don’t take my word for it, here’s an interesting blog post on the topic: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2473
Whether this had any effect in this study, I don’t know, but it certainly seems relevant that the experience of writing by hand in Japanese is utterly different to any alphabetic script.
[1] Don’t take my word for it, here’s an interesting blog post on the topic: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2473
> Don’t take my word for it
Don't worry, I have some knowledge of Japanese and Chinese (traditional) and first hand experience of the phenomenon. If you can visualize the character you can write it, and I maintain that this is not as different as people makes it than visualizing the writing form of a word for a language written with a morphophonemic script (English, French, Korean without hanja, Thai, etc.)
Don't worry, I have some knowledge of Japanese and Chinese (traditional) and first hand experience of the phenomenon. If you can visualize the character you can write it, and I maintain that this is not as different as people makes it than visualizing the writing form of a word for a language written with a morphophonemic script (English, French, Korean without hanja, Thai, etc.)
I've been studying Japanese for years and while SRS reading methods help to some degree, writing is the only thing that's really helped me lock in Kanji. Especially at the intermediate level where kanji not only look similar but are pronounced the same.
SRS : Spaced repetition system. Anki is a good example of that.
SRS : Spaced repetition system. Anki is a good example of that.
I've been slowly learning Japanese, mostly with Duolingo, and that's a conclusion I've noted as well. People get hung up on the "complexity" of even hiragana and katakana, complaining about there being two many or those two scripts being duplicates.
There are fewer total hiragana and katakana than there are English digrams and trigrams in lower-case and capital letters. (Because Japanese uses fewer overall phonemes...and the characters are consistent in terms of pronunciation, unlike English.)
I'm not very far into kanji (just some basic ones like 水 or 人 that stick) but the principles are solid: they have shared stroke components (radicals) that related kanji share, much like similar collections of letters, and studying them as you study vocabulary isn't really any different than knowing what an English word looks like on sight, without "sounding it out."
There are fewer total hiragana and katakana than there are English digrams and trigrams in lower-case and capital letters. (Because Japanese uses fewer overall phonemes...and the characters are consistent in terms of pronunciation, unlike English.)
I'm not very far into kanji (just some basic ones like 水 or 人 that stick) but the principles are solid: they have shared stroke components (radicals) that related kanji share, much like similar collections of letters, and studying them as you study vocabulary isn't really any different than knowing what an English word looks like on sight, without "sounding it out."
Complexity of Hiragana and Katakana is exaggerated by learner. Difficulty of remembering many Kanjis (for write) is real.
From the article:
> Participants in the Tablet group used a stylus pen, thereby controlling for the effects of longhand writing with a pen in the Note group.
In this specific study this is not a notable effect between the Note and Tablet groups. For the phone group you're right that it's a completely different input, while also being much more painful all around due to the sheer device size.
> Participants in the Tablet group used a stylus pen, thereby controlling for the effects of longhand writing with a pen in the Note group.
In this specific study this is not a notable effect between the Note and Tablet groups. For the phone group you're right that it's a completely different input, while also being much more painful all around due to the sheer device size.
It autocompletes kanji? That's impressive. At first I thought that might be a very difficult thing to do but I just talked to some friends who are Japanese natives and they said it's easier to solve the issue of similar kanji by using context.
Neat!
Neat!
Very interesting difference. Thanks for pointing it out
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This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki. I imagine it would significantly outcompete both hand-written notes and digital tablet notes. A bit like the famous Steve Jobs example comparing a human, a condor, and a human with a bicycle. The condor (hand-writing) may beat the human (tablet), but a human with a bicycle (SRS system) outcompetes both.
One hour isn't really short-term memory, at least not in the usual sense, and short-term memory is definitely needed to form long-term memories.
Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.
Spaced repetition is an entirely different dimension. It doesn't fit between the three mentioned modes. You don't get spaced repetition when e.g. attending class or reading a chapter. Instead, you make notes. That's what this study is for, and anything else is a distraction.
My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone.
In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of magnitude better. At least that’s what I think; and so I wish the study had included this.
In other words, if your goal is to go fast: a bicycle will outcompete a tricycle. But adding a motor to either will be an order of magnitude better. At least that’s what I think; and so I wish the study had included this.
> My point was more that if you’re trying to decide which method is better for remembering something (handwriting vs. digital), the introduction of a spaced repetition system (either software like Anki or a Leitner box for handwritten notes) will outcompete either one that is used alone.
The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taking duration after reading a dialogue.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but that systematic spaced repetition will lead to better information retrieval is kind of obvious and has a lot of literature to support it, but how is it relevant to this study?
The study in question compared three groups (pen & paper note taking, smartphone and tablet) on information retrieval and note taking duration after reading a dialogue.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but that systematic spaced repetition will lead to better information retrieval is kind of obvious and has a lot of literature to support it, but how is it relevant to this study?
Because the original link submission title was more about memory and writing vs. typing. And so I was commenting on the topic of memory as a whole.
Judging by the other comments, most people had the same interpretation.
Judging by the other comments, most people had the same interpretation.
> I was commenting on the topic of memory as a whole
You specifically said that the study was lacking a fourth group (spaced repetition software.)
You specifically said that the study was lacking a fourth group (spaced repetition software.)
You I seem to be posting hostile, unhelpful takes all over this thread, so I think I’ll end the conversation here.
Studying isn't note-taking. It doesn't make sense for this study to include it. It's a different modality, a different task. If the study had included this, it would have been tossed aside in peer-review. You can't compare across widely differing conditions. An fMRI study also isn't the appropriate way to compare conditions in very long term recollection tasks, and get the result you seem to want to get out of it: the proper way to do it is scoring the test result.
The implicitions of this study are limited, as usual.
The implicitions of this study are limited, as usual.
I agree with your thoughts on digital notes providing an advantage with making flashcards, as they match with my personal experience with learning new subjects.
I used to learn with handwriting more than digital note-taking in the past, but I found it hard to convert the handwritten notes into a flashcard format (the best I could do was retype, or write the notes in a question-answer format, scan them, and use the screenshots as flashcards).
By starting with digital notes, however, the process became simpler for making flashcards for a spaced repetition system—it became much easier to reformat the text for digital flashcards. I then found it much easier to review my notes in the future in a way that actively tested me, versus passively re-reading my handwritten notes.
I used to learn with handwriting more than digital note-taking in the past, but I found it hard to convert the handwritten notes into a flashcard format (the best I could do was retype, or write the notes in a question-answer format, scan them, and use the screenshots as flashcards).
By starting with digital notes, however, the process became simpler for making flashcards for a spaced repetition system—it became much easier to reformat the text for digital flashcards. I then found it much easier to review my notes in the future in a way that actively tested me, versus passively re-reading my handwritten notes.
Isn't that fairly obvious? You need to repeat the work for this kind of stuff.
I can say that SRS reading pales in comparison to SRS writing when it comes to learning Japanese.
I can say that SRS reading pales in comparison to SRS writing when it comes to learning Japanese.
Just a very small nitpick, but "system" is redundant when you say SRS, as it would be like saying Spaced Repetition System system.
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SRS = spaced repetition software.
A shoutout to SuperMemo here - one of the oldest SRS out there. Their first version was on Amiga, if I remember correctly, and the newest ones support iOS, use LLMs and all the other tech :)
iOS? No, certainly not. The recently released version just did the jump from Internet Explorer to Edge support.
You probably mean the confusingly identically named SuperMemo on supermemo.com (not .guru), that is indeed a spaced-repetition software, but is not the venerable and famous real SuperMemo with a gazillion of features and research behind it. Just a simplistic knockoff. Strangely by the same author.
You probably mean the confusingly identically named SuperMemo on supermemo.com (not .guru), that is indeed a spaced-repetition software, but is not the venerable and famous real SuperMemo with a gazillion of features and research behind it. Just a simplistic knockoff. Strangely by the same author.
I’ve never used Supermemo (still windows-only I think) but the data on their blog is really awesome. The founder basically pioneered the idea of SRS.
Spaced repetition software system? That's not the usual meaning of SRS, but good to know some people use it like that.
Good to know but these days if you try to google it that's not the result unfortunately.
What's an SRS system?
Software that prompts you with information on some time interval that allows for embedding it deeper in your memory. I think the key was it would prompt you with the information, just as your short term memory would be about to forget it, and thus re-inforce it.
So some information X you want to remember.
It would prompt you with it at 5 minutes, then 20, then an hour, then 5 hours.
I forget the durations, but it was based in some studies on time before short term memory fades.
So some information X you want to remember.
It would prompt you with it at 5 minutes, then 20, then an hour, then 5 hours.
I forget the durations, but it was based in some studies on time before short term memory fades.
I think it is Space Repetition Software/System
Spaced Repetition Software.
I don't understand your simile. The limitations of a bicycle are infrastructure: bicycles can go a lot of places very efficiently, but rugged mountain terrain without trails (precisely the place condors thrive) would be difficult to traverse. (this is totally off topic but now i am curious about the energy efficiency of condor flight vs bicycle travel in ideal conditions)
i find SRS very useful. but i personally think it is not well suited to reference information. i'm skeptical of putting all my appointments in SRS for example (maybe birthdays would be worth it). or say I had collected a bunch of papers related to a topic I was very interested in. I don't necessarily think I'd want to memorize the list of them via SRS, but having the titles written somewhere for reference would be great. I think the point of this paper is that if that 'somewhere' is an SRS card, it is almost completely devoid of context (other than 'studying flashcards on computer' context), but if that somewhere is a notebook that contains lists of papers related to all the topics i'm interested in, it's much easier to find. (though computers are good at searching fast)
i find SRS very useful. but i personally think it is not well suited to reference information. i'm skeptical of putting all my appointments in SRS for example (maybe birthdays would be worth it). or say I had collected a bunch of papers related to a topic I was very interested in. I don't necessarily think I'd want to memorize the list of them via SRS, but having the titles written somewhere for reference would be great. I think the point of this paper is that if that 'somewhere' is an SRS card, it is almost completely devoid of context (other than 'studying flashcards on computer' context), but if that somewhere is a notebook that contains lists of papers related to all the topics i'm interested in, it's much easier to find. (though computers are good at searching fast)
It was just an example used by Steve Jobs to show how computers could enhance human capabilities.
Also, using a SRS in conjunction with a memory palace can solve a lot of the reference issues you’re describing.
Also, using a SRS in conjunction with a memory palace can solve a lot of the reference issues you’re describing.
this combo technique sounds useful, is it something like reviewing memory palaces with spaced repetition, instead of reviewing standalone information?
Something like that, yeah. The idea being that you create a memory palace or physical space, and then memorize a map or route through it via spaced repetition.
Memory palaces are often recommended for reference-type information, so I think this would work well. There are a number of discussions on Art of Memory talking about this:
https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniqu...
https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-pal...
Memory palaces are often recommended for reference-type information, so I think this would work well. There are a number of discussions on Art of Memory talking about this:
https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/mind-mapping-memory-techniqu...
https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/anki-to-load-up-a-memory-pal...
>This study appears to focus on short term memory, but for my money, long-term memory is much more significant. As such, it would have been useful to add a third option: using a SRS system like Anki
Then you should go tell the journal editors that this study is incomplete and didn't cover the type of memory you consider more significant, hopefully they will retract the paper
Then you should go tell the journal editors that this study is incomplete and didn't cover the type of memory you consider more significant, hopefully they will retract the paper
I once wrote out a job hunting goal on a sheet of paper and read it 3x per day for a few months, with “crazy” salary and everything. And then, I got it.
I did similar thing later with multiple goals in Google docs. Found that I’m not as consistent with it and haven’t achieved those same goals.
Could be consistency, more goals vs fewer, or the paper vs digital
There’s something about paper that feels more real. It also forces some focus as you only have so much room on paper
I did similar thing later with multiple goals in Google docs. Found that I’m not as consistent with it and haven’t achieved those same goals.
Could be consistency, more goals vs fewer, or the paper vs digital
There’s something about paper that feels more real. It also forces some focus as you only have so much room on paper
I find that any goals the exist inside my computer get downgraded subconsciously because, physically, it's like sliding them into a folder with everything else I do all day every day. I can open that folder and pull out my critical life goals or the doodles I did during a meeting or that cool article I want to learn something from, etc.
However, prioritizing physical space for a goal affects your real life. Maybe this doesn't apply if your written goal was just in a notebook that is also used for other things, but if it's on your desk, (and your desk isn't cluttered,) its physical important also signals the brain.
However, prioritizing physical space for a goal affects your real life. Maybe this doesn't apply if your written goal was just in a notebook that is also used for other things, but if it's on your desk, (and your desk isn't cluttered,) its physical important also signals the brain.
I'm sorry, are you saying putting "get a great job" on paper and reading it repeatedly does anything at all to actually getting the job?
Could it be that such a huge goal as "be successful in my career" is just more important than the ones you put in Google docs?
Could it be that such a huge goal as "be successful in my career" is just more important than the ones you put in Google docs?
This correlates with my personal experience.
If I take paper notes, I rarely have to go back and look at them. Even then it's usually just to confirm my memory. If I take notes on an electronic device, I'm far more likely to have to go back and look at the device.
If I take paper notes, I rarely have to go back and look at them. Even then it's usually just to confirm my memory. If I take notes on an electronic device, I'm far more likely to have to go back and look at the device.
"Every time you write it down, you make another copy in your head."
I think it would be interesting to see a study on memory retrieval for completing software projects with a dumb text editor with nothing enabled, an IDE, and an IDE with copilot enabled.
i don't like _auto_complete, i find that the nondeterminstic text changes on the screen are pretty distracting. however, I do really like quick lookup of relevant names at my own will from the editor. this is possible with even e.g. ed and ctags.
i'd wager nearly every development environment is integrated to some extent, piping output in the unix shell is integrating.
i'd wager nearly every development environment is integrated to some extent, piping output in the unix shell is integrating.
I might also depends for how long the developer has been using the tool. At university we first learned to program with pen and paper to develop memory and thinking habits before doing everything by hand with only vim and after that using and IDE after +6 months to let the habits develop.
Maybe if a developper starts learning straight with copilot, some habits will never form and things will never go into long term memory ?
I learned to program using Python with Geany, no autocomplete, every single letter typed by my fingers; no auto-format either. I was doing some consulting (I got a cheap consulting gig as my first job) and wrote a daemon in Python, which ran for about a year, then hit an edge case where I had misspelled a variable. -_- After that it ran for several years, 24/7, no problem.
Now to my point: I learned Python far better than any other language I've ever used, I think because it was the first language I used seriously, but maybe it was because I never used auto-complete in those early days?
Now to my point: I learned Python far better than any other language I've ever used, I think because it was the first language I used seriously, but maybe it was because I never used auto-complete in those early days?
Or maybe because it is Python. I find Python to be a beginner friendly, easy to learn language that steers you in the "right" direction. I think it is the biggest factor that explains its popularity. It is not a perfect language, in fact, I don't like it that much, but you have to give credit when credit is due.
With C++, you can have decades of experience and be considered an expert, and yet, feel like a noob (my case). Perl, a language that shares many similarities with Python is also much harder to learn well. The "there is more than one way to do it" philosophy has value, but not for learning.
With C++, you can have decades of experience and be considered an expert, and yet, feel like a noob (my case). Perl, a language that shares many similarities with Python is also much harder to learn well. The "there is more than one way to do it" philosophy has value, but not for learning.
Personally, I'm not convinced it is a good idea to make any conclusions about reality from any fMRI study (I'm not convinced what is being measured is all that important plus even intrepreting what is being measured relies on complex statistics). Also, for this kind of thing the outliers are very important in tring to figure out what is going on. They show individual data points and eyeballing them I don't really see a lot of difference in the accuracy, with the tablet in particular being slightly worse than nearly identical phone or notes (but they had to pop out "easy questions" to make that difference look interesting). Saying there is a difference between device and paper just because the tablet condition did worse is misleading.
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/634158/fnbeh-15-6...
They mention the difference in terms of location cues in the conclusion section. I would guess UI choices affect the ability to use location sense to recall information and I could easily imagine the small menus of phones enhancing this effect (and/or larger screens in general reducing the physical location effect of the device itself). Taking a quick look on Google Scholar there is some research on this kind of thing but I'm not seeing any thing that pops out as a particularly interesting presentation. Any UI designers out there who intentionally try to trigger location sense in their design?
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/634158/fnbeh-15-6...
They mention the difference in terms of location cues in the conclusion section. I would guess UI choices affect the ability to use location sense to recall information and I could easily imagine the small menus of phones enhancing this effect (and/or larger screens in general reducing the physical location effect of the device itself). Taking a quick look on Google Scholar there is some research on this kind of thing but I'm not seeing any thing that pops out as a particularly interesting presentation. Any UI designers out there who intentionally try to trigger location sense in their design?
Interesting result, but I wish they hadn't used scheduled appointments as the content of the note. I don't write down scheduled appointments because I want to have them stored in my mind, quite the opposite. It would be much more interesting if they used something you want to learn and memorize. I expect the result to hold, but still.
I would imagine that in about 20 years, this will show a different result. I feel it has strong bias due to how many of us are raised during our formative years. When tech becomes more and more common at a younger age, our brain will be different.
i love studies like this, i've always found this to be intuitively true, so my confirmation bias is like "YES", but i hope there's more and more research into this.
smartphones are such a new technology
smartphones are such a new technology
I tend to write with more intent when using paper because I know that editing is not really possible. Accessibility is also much more limited on paper. However, I think of my devices and PKM software as a second brain where I just offload information knowing it can be accessed anywhere and anytime.
P.S. From TokyoU’s Department of Basic Science (in an allegedly predatory journal).
P.S. From TokyoU’s Department of Basic Science (in an allegedly predatory journal).
I wish it was like that for me too. I waste a lot of paper because I have to strike or rewrite my notes over and over for mistakes and changes of mind, even though I do my best not to make them. I still didn't find a way to fix that, but maybe it's just how my brain works.
Think that is the key/point. Once you get frustrated at the re-writing, waste of paper. That in-itself will start to train you to think through your thoughts before writing them down. It will help slow your brain down and conceptualize things more fully first.
I've been frustrated at it since I was a kid, but no intervention seems to have had an effect on reducing the waste. If I went through with thinking through my thoughts before writing them I'd be stuck for a very long time (potentially days) at best, else I'm back to square one.
What personal knowledge management software do you use?
I’ve never noticed memory differences based on how I made a note. I have, however, noticed that the act of making notes helps me understand something (which isn’t necessarily the same as recall) and writing on paper works best for me.
I’ve never noticed memory differences based on how I made a note. I have, however, noticed that the act of making notes helps me understand something (which isn’t necessarily the same as recall) and writing on paper works best for me.
I am not sure I agree with their participants sampling approach. Memory and particularly short term memory is highly impacted with people that have adhd/depression/bipolar. I am surprised they went with random participants without assessing their mental states and taking that into consideration.
Algorithmically and physically-biologically, Spreading activation has a (constant?) decay term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreading_activation
I recently bought an inexpensive fountain pen and have been enjoying my list and note taking more.
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Anyone here did see an improvement in memory retrieval after switching from taking notes by typing on their computer to taking notes on something like Remarkable?
I'm not sure about memory, but I've found that thinking through problems is easier using a pen tablet. I use a Surface Pro X mostly, but sometimes my Samsung Fold phone if that's all I have with me. If I use paper, I lose the paper.
No, and frankly, the increased search and lookup time when my colleagues can simply string grep them on their computers is a a handicap.
That said, I have never been able to take notes on a keyboard. I also find that physical notebooks not only are in practice much easier to search, but I also have the impression that the fact all your note pages physically still exist (and not "disappear" after you change pages) helps recollection.
That said, I have never been able to take notes on a keyboard. I also find that physical notebooks not only are in practice much easier to search, but I also have the impression that the fact all your note pages physically still exist (and not "disappear" after you change pages) helps recollection.
Wouldn't surprise me if linking the notes to a physical location aids memory.
That's the theory behind mind mapping.
As a side note, I feel mind mapping works differently on paper than with something like Xmind. Xmind is for organising and categorising thoughts by moving them around. Paper mind maps are for helping me remember the conversation when I wrote them; I can't seem to use software for that at all.
As a side note, I feel mind mapping works differently on paper than with something like Xmind. Xmind is for organising and categorising thoughts by moving them around. Paper mind maps are for helping me remember the conversation when I wrote them; I can't seem to use software for that at all.
Me neither. Memory palaces also show that this effect can be emulated (not sure if that's the right word) in the mind. I wonder if there is a way for computers to encourage developing a 'mind map'
I used to take some notes on paper (if it needed math and diagrams, or for meetings that require eye contact), and some notes on a computer (programming or pure text). My iPad replaced the paper but not the computer.
I think the kind of notes you can take with pen and paper beats what you can reasonably do with a keyboard. And I think some of the diagrams and annotated equations you can easily write on paper creates a much better learning experience.
But computer notes are much easier to search. So for things like meeting minutes, and daily todos etc, write it in a .txt file. But when following along a deep learning course, write the equations and diagrams on paper. Later you can write code examples in your personal cheat sheet for easy retrieval.
But computer notes are much easier to search. So for things like meeting minutes, and daily todos etc, write it in a .txt file. But when following along a deep learning course, write the equations and diagrams on paper. Later you can write code examples in your personal cheat sheet for easy retrieval.
I use OneNote and do some scribbled handwriting and quite a lot of typing; mostly 'printed' in text from PDFs. I'm always amazed at how it can interpret my handwriting, a lot of people struggle with it (including me). It's not perfect, but it surprises me sometimes.
The ability to attach multimedia screenshots, videos, images, files, digital ink is what elevates OneNote to me beyond Joplin, DokuWiki, LogSeq, Obsidian (all tools I've tried and can see why they have such appeal) , and other markdown++ notetaking applications, at least for my own taste and usecases.
OneNote is not only a good notetaking capture tool, it's also a great clarifying tool for general reference/project support digital filing.
Whether the digital artifacts are text, handwritten doodles, embedded files like multimedia or WIP digital artifacts, screenshots of binary file hexdumps, the works can all be stored together with relevant context, all labelled and fitting into a 3-ring-binder skeuomorphism I'm used to from organizing projects back in school in the olden days.
Not the tool for everyone (especially those want to go fully Linux Desktop) but its very close to having something for everyone. Just gotta be able to do mobile and linux with local notebooks.
OneNote is not only a good notetaking capture tool, it's also a great clarifying tool for general reference/project support digital filing.
Whether the digital artifacts are text, handwritten doodles, embedded files like multimedia or WIP digital artifacts, screenshots of binary file hexdumps, the works can all be stored together with relevant context, all labelled and fitting into a 3-ring-binder skeuomorphism I'm used to from organizing projects back in school in the olden days.
Not the tool for everyone (especially those want to go fully Linux Desktop) but its very close to having something for everyone. Just gotta be able to do mobile and linux with local notebooks.
Funny - hadn't thought of it this way accidentally used the same approach for an actuarial task.
I was updating an insurance pricing application that had all sorts of formulas for capital requirements, profit load, minimum premium, etc. The formulas were often laid out in SQL but I ultimately wrote them step-by-step on paper to make sure I was truly following the logic (and order of ops). Worked well!
I was updating an insurance pricing application that had all sorts of formulas for capital requirements, profit load, minimum premium, etc. The formulas were often laid out in SQL but I ultimately wrote them step-by-step on paper to make sure I was truly following the logic (and order of ops). Worked well!
I thought devices like Remarkable were doing automatic OCR to enable search across notes?
Assuming search works, then I’d say a big advantage of pen and paper is being less constrained in the layout of your notes, and for example do diagrams. Big disadvantage is not being able to edit, for example restructure your notes by moving things around.
Assuming search works, then I’d say a big advantage of pen and paper is being less constrained in the layout of your notes, and for example do diagrams. Big disadvantage is not being able to edit, for example restructure your notes by moving things around.
Anecdata, but I've never been able to switch to using a computer for note taking because I just get no long-term memory retrieval. Typing notes seem to be like never having learnt the thing. The search doesn't help because I don't even recall what I do or don't have to search through. When I take physical notes, I don't seem to need to look at them again, because I will recall what was written well enough that their purpose isn't as an archive, its for helping me retain something in my actual brain.
Another anecdata point, I have ADHD. It affects memory in all sorts of known and measured ways. I generally find if I can get something into long-term memory then I'm set. Working memory is terrible. Physically writing while working serves as a crutch there too.
Another anecdata point, I have ADHD. It affects memory in all sorts of known and measured ways. I generally find if I can get something into long-term memory then I'm set. Working memory is terrible. Physically writing while working serves as a crutch there too.
not obvious what app they're using to input appointments (from skimming + ctrl-F-ing for 'app', 'software'). did I miss something?
not sure why you'd blanket compare 'all digital input' to all paper. surely the UX matters.
like is this some cursed psych study calendar app that integrates with electrodes
not sure why you'd blanket compare 'all digital input' to all paper. surely the UX matters.
like is this some cursed psych study calendar app that integrates with electrodes
Now do paper vs an environment like Emacs and not a passive device.
Nitpick: Figure 4f is an obviously incorrect regression line.
Link is 500
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Author should have written it down and posted it to all of us.
The amount of mental investment to write by hand versus type is significant.
Technology assists are still rather primitive for English (you can’t argue with me on this it’s the hardest language due to amalgamations) but lazy gonna lazy.
My thesis paper on file from 20 years ago already set forth a curriculum to address literary learning deficiency. Oh well. Point being is I’ve practiced the hard way and if you only know assisted methods I will eviscerate you. In fiction, I will always be better than you.
Hey Alexa, how do I spell schadenfreude?
Note: I have 100,000 hours in literary pursuits ranging from reading to writing to critique. Often mocked for my English degree. The truth is English is a wonderful weapon far beyond the grasp of the commoner and I will use it.
Technology assists are still rather primitive for English (you can’t argue with me on this it’s the hardest language due to amalgamations) but lazy gonna lazy.
My thesis paper on file from 20 years ago already set forth a curriculum to address literary learning deficiency. Oh well. Point being is I’ve practiced the hard way and if you only know assisted methods I will eviscerate you. In fiction, I will always be better than you.
Hey Alexa, how do I spell schadenfreude?
Note: I have 100,000 hours in literary pursuits ranging from reading to writing to critique. Often mocked for my English degree. The truth is English is a wonderful weapon far beyond the grasp of the commoner and I will use it.
You will eviscerate me?! I need my viscera, good English major, please spare me.
Except in this study they were comparing writing on a paper to writing on a tablet so it seems that somehow the fact that the writing happened to a piece of paper makes our memory better and its not just the act of writing itself.
Maybe because mistakes are less expensive on a tablet.
That's testable, but if it turns out to have a benefit, you'll have to implement that effect on all tablets and phones, and make corrections more difficult (???).
However, I don't think it has a benefit: people don't correct themselves on tablet/phone, so I think the cost of a mistake is the same as on paper, namely 0, unless people are really more careful when writing.
However, I don't think it has a benefit: people don't correct themselves on tablet/phone, so I think the cost of a mistake is the same as on paper, namely 0, unless people are really more careful when writing.
Right now you're using it to get downvoted on a random website comment section so perhaps take yourself a bit less seriously!
Even as tablets are distributed in school from the primary cycle, note taking and exams are all done on paper. This is not a value judgment on wether it's good or bad, just that any further study will be on subjects that spent their formative years writing on paper, they better learn to be good at it and would fail their entry into society if they couldn't do so.
Any conclusion that paper works better than electronic methods comes with that asterisk to it.