Valve’s Newell: Windows 8 “catastrophe” driving Valve to embrace Linux(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Valve’s Newell: Windows 8 “catastrophe” driving Valve to embrace Linux
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/steams-newell-windows-8-catastrophe-driving-valve-to-embrace-linux/
52 comments
Steam isn't the platform that the games run on. Windows is. Steam is a distribution platform. There is no reason you can't use other distribution methods on the same computer and the same OS installation.
Also, in the article I don't think Gabe Newell ever says that the problem with Windows is that it is closed per se. It's not as though he fails to realize that Steam is not open source software.
Also, in the article I don't think Gabe Newell ever says that the problem with Windows is that it is closed per se. It's not as though he fails to realize that Steam is not open source software.
It's one thing for an OS to implement a Store, it's another for a third party application to do so. It's the same thing people say about Gatekeeper and the AppStore. I think it's too early to get too scared.
That having been said, I don't understand why Steam being a closed platform makes your users more likely to buy from them. And in that sense, what is an "open" store? Apt/Yum/etc?
That having been said, I don't understand why Steam being a closed platform makes your users more likely to buy from them. And in that sense, what is an "open" store? Apt/Yum/etc?
Because there is less competition. Open game stores are flooded with games, mostly of low quality. It makes it very hard to stand out and you just fall off the front page really fast. There is too much noise and everything gets the same billing regardless of quality, unless you hit a top sales spot. However, top sales spots frequently have less to do with quality and more to do with appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Just look at the ios app store, the top is generally freemium games or games that are actually thinly veiled skinner boxes with some nice art. Either that or casual games that have broad appeal because they are simple games.
On Steam you get top billing for at least 2 weeks after release.
Some open store examples: Desura, Indievania, XBLIG, android, even the mac app store is pretty open compared to Steam.
Just look at the ios app store, the top is generally freemium games or games that are actually thinly veiled skinner boxes with some nice art. Either that or casual games that have broad appeal because they are simple games.
On Steam you get top billing for at least 2 weeks after release.
Some open store examples: Desura, Indievania, XBLIG, android, even the mac app store is pretty open compared to Steam.
Yes, Steam breaks on Windows 8.
But people shouldn't take that motivation as something that makes what Newell is saying automatically wrong. He's far from the only person to say Win8 is going to be a disaster for MS - perhaps it is worth looking at the possibility he is actually right.
But people shouldn't take that motivation as something that makes what Newell is saying automatically wrong. He's far from the only person to say Win8 is going to be a disaster for MS - perhaps it is worth looking at the possibility he is actually right.
I don't see anything in the article about Steam breaking on Win8. I haven't heard that anywhere before your comment.
According to the article, Gabe is concerned with Windows Store and Xbox Live integration, fearing those would compete too strongly with Steam.
Features such as Xbox LIVE integration could make the Windows Store and Windows 8 a more appealing platform for gamers and developers alike than Steam.
According to the article, Gabe is concerned with Windows Store and Xbox Live integration, fearing those would compete too strongly with Steam.
Features such as Xbox LIVE integration could make the Windows Store and Windows 8 a more appealing platform for gamers and developers alike than Steam.
I'm running Windows 8, and I'm running steam. I've had no problems with Steam or with Steam games.
I don't see the Windows 8 app store as a competitor to Steam though, in the same way that I don't see the Google Play store as a competitor to Steam. Steam already has a strong community knit directly into the gaming experience that I doubt Microsoft will be able to reproduce, if GFWL is any indication. And there's no way I'd pay a monthly fee like on Xbox Live.
Hell, Origin isn't even that threatening to Steam, and that's a directly analogous service.
Hell, Origin isn't even that threatening to Steam, and that's a directly analogous service.
If you've tried to use Games for Windows Live, it makes seppuku seems like an enjoyable thing to do after dinner.
The user experience of what should have been mission critical Microsoft products - from Windows Live for Games to Adcenter is horrible. Horrible to a degree that whoever is responsible for them either never cared or should have been left managing McDonalds. That's too bad.
Yes, nothing Microsoft has right now comes close to comparing with the Steam user experience. (EA's Steam copycat also sucks, Gamestop's purchase of Impulse leaves a lot of judgement questions as well.)
The user experience of what should have been mission critical Microsoft products - from Windows Live for Games to Adcenter is horrible. Horrible to a degree that whoever is responsible for them either never cared or should have been left managing McDonalds. That's too bad.
Yes, nothing Microsoft has right now comes close to comparing with the Steam user experience. (EA's Steam copycat also sucks, Gamestop's purchase of Impulse leaves a lot of judgement questions as well.)
> If you've tried to use Games for Windows Live, it makes seppuku seems like an enjoyable thing to do after dinner.
Too right. My first experience of G4WL was GTA-IV. That experience is the reason I didn't bother reinstalling GTA-IV when I rebuilt my machine not long afterwards, and why I've not bought any games use/require G4WL since.
My games purchases since have all been through Steam, GoG, and Humble Bundles. Even games I might otherwise have paid full (or near full) price for have not been touched if they have G4WL anywhere near them.
Be careful when getting Games through Steam: there are some that still force you to faf around with G4WL (i.e. they will refuse to run if you don't) rather than having the option of using Steam's features instead for the same tasks (syncing of game saves and such).
The experience was irritating enough that when making a game buying decision I make a concerted effort to make sure I avoid a repeat in future. Compared to the Steam experience it, well, really didn't compare.
(I have some complaints with Steam too, nothing is perfect, but nothing that irritates to the point of stopping me using it to purchase and maintain games)
Too right. My first experience of G4WL was GTA-IV. That experience is the reason I didn't bother reinstalling GTA-IV when I rebuilt my machine not long afterwards, and why I've not bought any games use/require G4WL since.
My games purchases since have all been through Steam, GoG, and Humble Bundles. Even games I might otherwise have paid full (or near full) price for have not been touched if they have G4WL anywhere near them.
Be careful when getting Games through Steam: there are some that still force you to faf around with G4WL (i.e. they will refuse to run if you don't) rather than having the option of using Steam's features instead for the same tasks (syncing of game saves and such).
The experience was irritating enough that when making a game buying decision I make a concerted effort to make sure I avoid a repeat in future. Compared to the Steam experience it, well, really didn't compare.
(I have some complaints with Steam too, nothing is perfect, but nothing that irritates to the point of stopping me using it to purchase and maintain games)
I think the problem is that the Microsoft store will be the only way to get software on Windows 8 Rt. Microsoft is essentially pulling an Apple and there is no way that is a net benefit for Valve or the community in general.
There are other problems with Windows 8, but I think the closed ARM version is a really big one.
There are other problems with Windows 8, but I think the closed ARM version is a really big one.
Yeah but, Windows 8 itself is a train wreck. Seriously, who is going to upgrade to it? It's too different.
Nobody is going to go out of their way to buy it, the only installs it will get is as OEM's on new hardware.
And I bet even the OEMs will offer Windows 7 for as long as they can.
I think if users _have_ to have something different they will seriously consider OSX and Linux. One is more polished on better hardware for people who have money and want the best. The other is free for people who don't care.
Nobody is going to go out of their way to buy it, the only installs it will get is as OEM's on new hardware.
And I bet even the OEMs will offer Windows 7 for as long as they can.
I think if users _have_ to have something different they will seriously consider OSX and Linux. One is more polished on better hardware for people who have money and want the best. The other is free for people who don't care.
As much as I wish this were true (I've been gunning for the MS downfall forever), I doubt it will be the case.
My (non-technical) girlfriend recently needed a reformat, so on a whim I installed the 8 RC to see what her reaction would be.
She loves it. It is, quite simply, the first Windows release that presents software in a friendly and usable way that allows the non-technical user to get just as much from a PC as they could from a Mac.
Difference drives the uptake of software, otherwise we'd still be on Windows 95. 8 is just as rock stable as 7, but faster, and with an interface that is more logical and easy to grasp. I see no reason why it won't be a huge success (besides some kind of major corporate-IT catastrophe).
Newell's comments are leveled at Microsoft's monopoly on software distribution for Windows RT, which may in fact cause a disruption much like the one he outlines. The consumer, however, will finally learn what the "flag button" on their keyboard is for.
My (non-technical) girlfriend recently needed a reformat, so on a whim I installed the 8 RC to see what her reaction would be.
She loves it. It is, quite simply, the first Windows release that presents software in a friendly and usable way that allows the non-technical user to get just as much from a PC as they could from a Mac.
Difference drives the uptake of software, otherwise we'd still be on Windows 95. 8 is just as rock stable as 7, but faster, and with an interface that is more logical and easy to grasp. I see no reason why it won't be a huge success (besides some kind of major corporate-IT catastrophe).
Newell's comments are leveled at Microsoft's monopoly on software distribution for Windows RT, which may in fact cause a disruption much like the one he outlines. The consumer, however, will finally learn what the "flag button" on their keyboard is for.
Wow, this is the first positive reported use-case I've heard for Windows 8 "in the wild".
Can anyone corroborate this from a non-technical user experience?
I think the lack of positive feedback on the blogoweb is due to the the degree that 8 is directed at non-technical users. Many HN'ers and the tech writers we read will be put off by the metaphorical down-talking of the start 'menu'.
I doubt any technical users will have any interest in Metro apps on PCs. The same features that make non-techies feel less affronted with interface elements will feel childish to experienced users. (Just take a look at the HN discussions surrounding the skeumorphic calendar app in Moutain Lion - its the same distaste, just to a lesser degree.)
And, if you don't get any benefit from the Metro apps or start 'menu', you really don't get much benefit out of 8.
Gabe is absolutely correct to offer Steam on Linux. Many technical Windows users who have invested in their PCs (read: many gamers) will use their distaste as an opportunity to try Ubuntu. People are always looking for something new, especially in regards to software.
None of this, I believe, will make 8 a business failure for MS.
I doubt any technical users will have any interest in Metro apps on PCs. The same features that make non-techies feel less affronted with interface elements will feel childish to experienced users. (Just take a look at the HN discussions surrounding the skeumorphic calendar app in Moutain Lion - its the same distaste, just to a lesser degree.)
And, if you don't get any benefit from the Metro apps or start 'menu', you really don't get much benefit out of 8.
Gabe is absolutely correct to offer Steam on Linux. Many technical Windows users who have invested in their PCs (read: many gamers) will use their distaste as an opportunity to try Ubuntu. People are always looking for something new, especially in regards to software.
None of this, I believe, will make 8 a business failure for MS.
I'd be hesitant to predict this sort of result. Vista was very weird for those of us used to XP, and was widely panned in a similar way as a train wreck -- but people started buying, certainly. Ubuntu's Unity desktop environment was new and surprising, but it seems to be holding up.
Comfort is only one of the huge driving factors in these sorts of scenarios. That Microsoft has given up the mantle of comfort in the name of pushing forward is probably a good thing. Had they stuck with comfort, I'd still have to support the nightmare that was IE5. ^_^ Now you see big companies turning to Apple in the hopes of not only seeming more urban and modern to the people they're recruiting, but also to hopefully keep a very standard set of features and UI: it is quite possible, if admittedly a little crazy-sounding, to imagine that in ten years or so the post-Jobs Apple will reverse places with the post-Gates Microsoft.
Ultimately, if you change others, and others change you, that is a building-block for love in the most general sense. The things that we are fanatical about are the programming languages that really changed our lives, the operating systems that we put in the effort to understand and master, the technologies which altered our workflows and our day-to-day living. Love is always transformative, and Microsoft was getting too stagnant to be loved. Only time can tell whether their present changes will bring back some of that fanaticism which is sorely lacking.
Comfort is only one of the huge driving factors in these sorts of scenarios. That Microsoft has given up the mantle of comfort in the name of pushing forward is probably a good thing. Had they stuck with comfort, I'd still have to support the nightmare that was IE5. ^_^ Now you see big companies turning to Apple in the hopes of not only seeming more urban and modern to the people they're recruiting, but also to hopefully keep a very standard set of features and UI: it is quite possible, if admittedly a little crazy-sounding, to imagine that in ten years or so the post-Jobs Apple will reverse places with the post-Gates Microsoft.
Ultimately, if you change others, and others change you, that is a building-block for love in the most general sense. The things that we are fanatical about are the programming languages that really changed our lives, the operating systems that we put in the effort to understand and master, the technologies which altered our workflows and our day-to-day living. Love is always transformative, and Microsoft was getting too stagnant to be loved. Only time can tell whether their present changes will bring back some of that fanaticism which is sorely lacking.
>One is more polished on better hardware for people who have the money and want the best.
Is this at all true? If you spent an identical sum of money on a PC would you not get better hardware?
Is this at all true? If you spent an identical sum of money on a PC would you not get better hardware?
Depends on what you mean by better hardware. The specs will probably be better, I have a Thinkpad and it would have cost me twice as much for an equivalent Macbook. That said, the build quality of the Thinkpad isn't even close to the MacBook, it just depends on what's important to you. For me, an aluminium case isn't worth $1500, and I don't really want to be seen with an Apple product anyway :)
Well with the thinkpads and other business-centric laptops you tend to get the advantage of modularity as well. Keyboards, screens, hard drives, RAM, batteries, and optical drives can all be replaced fairly easily on Dell Latitudes and Lenovo Thinkpads. (The ones I've had at least.) On a Macbook, replacing the RAM and hard drive are the only ones I know to be fairly simple.
It just doesn't exit. I've been shopping to a windows laptop for ages and really nothing is as good as what apple is offering.
> I think if users _have_ to have something different they will seriously consider OSX and Linux. One is more polished on better hardware for people who have money and want the best. The other is free for people who don't care.
I use Linux and I care, probably too much, about it.
I use Linux and I care, probably too much, about it.
I would love to take the plunge but need photoshop. Gimp is a long way behind.
Steam isnt allowed on Metro, nor can it sell metro based/integrated games.
And the low and midrange win8 devices are all going to be ARM/Metro only.
So, Steam on Windows has no future. Nor does origin. Welcome to the consolification of all consumer computing devices.
And the low and midrange win8 devices are all going to be ARM/Metro only.
So, Steam on Windows has no future. Nor does origin. Welcome to the consolification of all consumer computing devices.
I don't know, but Xbox Live has 40m users and Steam has 10m (numbers from google search). Microsoft has a shot at this if they do it right, since it opens doors for apps too. We'll see. Best thing Microsoft could have done was to buy steam outright or venture with Valve. Something tells me that ship has sailed.
Hmm.
How much work would it take to get Adobe apps working on Linux?
I ask because aside from games, which Mr Newell is clearly all over, Adobe is one of the main reasons I hear quoted for why people can't switch to Linux.
How much work would it take to get Adobe apps working on Linux?
I ask because aside from games, which Mr Newell is clearly all over, Adobe is one of the main reasons I hear quoted for why people can't switch to Linux.
Gimp is an alright alternative to Photoshop, as a web developer you could manage, but I couldn't see any designers making the switch.
I've also noticed that Gimp makes jpgs of lesser quality, smaller, but noticeably trashier.
I've also noticed that Gimp makes jpgs of lesser quality, smaller, but noticeably trashier.
Speaking as a visual arts professional, GIMP won't do as a replacement for Photoshop for me. In addition, there's no replacement for After Effects, and no equally good alternative (IMO) to Premiere as a current-generation video editor.
I take it the difficulty of making these apps work in Linux is basically impossible?
I take it the difficulty of making these apps work in Linux is basically impossible?
[deleted]
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TLDR: Windows RT lock-down move is what forced Valve to go to Linux.
It was previously discussed here: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4253887
PS: why is hackerne.ws better indexed by Google than news.ycombinator.com ?
It was previously discussed here: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4253887
PS: why is hackerne.ws better indexed by Google than news.ycombinator.com ?
If he is sincere then he is brilliant because he realizes the open path.
when closed systems collide, platforms change...
I think Newell has misjudged why Linux hasn't taken off as a personal computing platform. Sure, the lack of games doesn't help, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
I suspect that if there is anyone in a position to research the problem and actually execute a solution, it is him. It's not like he's some kid who thinks tuxracer is the bee's knees.
Games is the only thing why i still have Windows on my Laptop. I can cope with the rest just fine on Linux.
I would personally say that gaming is a giant chunk of the iceberg. Others (for me) would be video editing, and music production. Oh, and testing sites in Internet Explorer.
What i do is taking the Microsoft IE test images and run them under VirtualBox for that task ;)
In case you didn't know: MS provides images for different versions of Windows and Internet Explorer for exactly that purpose: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=115...
In case you didn't know: MS provides images for different versions of Windows and Internet Explorer for exactly that purpose: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=115...
Microsoft provides virtual images of various windowses just for testing websites in various Internet Explorer versions.
sure, most of my friends are CS majors, but if they aren't linux users already, the reason they always cite is the lack of support for games.
What else is there for an end user?
I use a Mac as my main computer, but keep a PC just for games. I would love to use Linux on it and not have to pay for Windows. Is there another category of software that is as exclusive to windows as games? I can get everything else I need via web apps or OSX.
There are a lot of windows-only apps in the business world.
There are also a lot of apple-only apps in the business world.
And how many business apps are being built for windows right now, compared to the number that are being built of iOS and osX right now?
I guess that the latter has much more activity...
And how many business apps are being built for windows right now, compared to the number that are being built of iOS and osX right now?
I guess that the latter has much more activity...
I think the latter has a lot more visibility, at least.
I'm sure there are a lot of custom and legacy business apps out there tied to windows. But thinking of broad categories of business software (Office/productivity, browser, IDE, graphics editing, accounting, contact management), there are lots of alternatives that will run on a non-Windows PC. But looking at games as a category, you don't have comparable options on Mac or Linux.
I can second this. While support for games is improving on nix, it's still a huge turn off to have to switch OSs when you want to load up whatever you're playing. So it's still nix at work, Windows at home for me.
CS majors make up a rather small percentage of all PC users. What is your point exactly?
I think the point is even stronger because they are CS majors. These are people who develop software, and use their computer for many more purposes than the average user. If gaming is the only barrier for a CS major, then what's stopping the average user from switching to Linux?
I'd also like to to add to your point that power users are generally early adopters and set the stage for change.
The more of a switch to Linux for power users, the more we see applications developed for Linux, and the more we see a need for regular users to switch to a Linux platform.
The more of a switch to Linux for power users, the more we see applications developed for Linux, and the more we see a need for regular users to switch to a Linux platform.
Kinda seems like the pot calling the kettle black.