Kid gamers to adult gamblers? Investigation of childhood gaming and YA gambling(tandfonline.com)
tandfonline.com
Kid gamers to adult gamblers? Investigation of childhood gaming and YA gambling
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14459795.2025.2488867
67 comments
> it is rather obvious that if someone likes gambling but doesn't have access to it due to their age, they will reach for gaming as the closest substitute, sure.
How is that obvious? I'm not sure how those are connected. Maybe for a specific game, if that game has lootbox-like mechanics?
How is that obvious? I'm not sure how those are connected. Maybe for a specific game, if that game has lootbox-like mechanics?
What I had in mind is the simple thrill of winning against other people, and being able to do it from the comfort of your computer/phone, without having to actually deal with people face-to-face.
In this sense, gambling is just about rising the stakes to get that emotional hit when just fake points don't do it for you anymore.
I'm assuming that most online gambling is like poker where there is a degree, or at least an illusion, of skill and agency. Having some randomness involved is also quite appealing because you can keep hoping to get lucky and can win now and then even if you are not great at the game, it can still be fun to win even if you didn't really earn it. But I doubt many teenagers just keep pressing a button like in roulette or slots.
Well there is loot-boxes of course, but that's more engaging since the rewards are tied to an actual game, there's the chance to show-off your winnings in the case of cosmetics, the collectable nature of the rewards, and sometimes the possibility to trade them for other items or real money.
EDIT: There's also sports gambling which is massive, although not sure if there is any overlap with these people that flow from gaming.
In this sense, gambling is just about rising the stakes to get that emotional hit when just fake points don't do it for you anymore.
I'm assuming that most online gambling is like poker where there is a degree, or at least an illusion, of skill and agency. Having some randomness involved is also quite appealing because you can keep hoping to get lucky and can win now and then even if you are not great at the game, it can still be fun to win even if you didn't really earn it. But I doubt many teenagers just keep pressing a button like in roulette or slots.
Well there is loot-boxes of course, but that's more engaging since the rewards are tied to an actual game, there's the chance to show-off your winnings in the case of cosmetics, the collectable nature of the rewards, and sometimes the possibility to trade them for other items or real money.
EDIT: There's also sports gambling which is massive, although not sure if there is any overlap with these people that flow from gaming.
I mean, you could say that for any sport (not gambling). Winning against other people is an enormous context. You can even win an argument
Games are popular because they provide clear rules and instant rewards, almost like an "ideal job". Gambling is like the opposite of that and is tapping into a different part of the brain.
I wouldn't completely agree with that. I was playing PUBG recently and hit suddenly hit me "This game is gambling".
In PUBG: You walk into a house not knowing whats there. You find 'loot', you hoard it...and then maybe you get into a fight somewhere along the way. The game is 70% looting, 20% running and sometimes as little as 10% fighting other players. The looting is designed to feel like gambling.
And i freaking love it.
That's all to say, there's certainly rules and structure to the game, but a lot of what hooks me to these styles of games is the chance element. I just didn't realize until very recently (I'm now 39...took a minute to pickup on it)
In PUBG: You walk into a house not knowing whats there. You find 'loot', you hoard it...and then maybe you get into a fight somewhere along the way. The game is 70% looting, 20% running and sometimes as little as 10% fighting other players. The looting is designed to feel like gambling.
And i freaking love it.
That's all to say, there's certainly rules and structure to the game, but a lot of what hooks me to these styles of games is the chance element. I just didn't realize until very recently (I'm now 39...took a minute to pickup on it)
Just for anyone unfamiliar with the game or these types of games and to put out an opposing view — I disagree that the experience of BR games have anything to do with the experience of gambling. I’ve done both and find pretty much nothing in common.
(The cosmetic gambling obviously is very much gambling, though, and is unfortunatly a big part of the game.)
(The cosmetic gambling obviously is very much gambling, though, and is unfortunatly a big part of the game.)
I think gambling means money is at risk, and can be won. Or something with well-defined monetary value, on both sides of the transaction.
Types of gambling could be sorted by how much control you have over the probabilities.
Types of gambling could be sorted by how much control you have over the probabilities.
I think this might underestimate how gambling + kids games can reinforce destructive behavior.
There are lots of similar tools that casino owners/game designers/sports betting apps/social media/&c use to build addiction into their products, all while offloading responsibility onto individual consumers.
A really interesting study of this is the book 'Addiction by Design' by Natasha Dow Schüll examines this in the context of slot machines/video poker/casino games, but you can see the same process at work basically wherever you look.
There are lots of similar tools that casino owners/game designers/sports betting apps/social media/&c use to build addiction into their products, all while offloading responsibility onto individual consumers.
A really interesting study of this is the book 'Addiction by Design' by Natasha Dow Schüll examines this in the context of slot machines/video poker/casino games, but you can see the same process at work basically wherever you look.
It makes some basic sense to say gambling is increasing among young men, and gaming is increasing in young men, maybe they are related.
Their data is lacking to draw strong conclusions, but the question is interesting.
Their data is lacking to draw strong conclusions, but the question is interesting.
Gambling increased because many states recently legalized it. Any other correlation is puff science.
I know more than a few degenerate gamblers. My one buddy bets ~250k/yr, the rest are about ~100k. I'm like 10k (and through luck or skill I end every year up between 2-10k).
I'm the only gamer of this group of 10 people, even as kids.
I know more than a few degenerate gamblers. My one buddy bets ~250k/yr, the rest are about ~100k. I'm like 10k (and through luck or skill I end every year up between 2-10k).
I'm the only gamer of this group of 10 people, even as kids.
This research is not about the US. Also don't use a slur for homosexual to denigrate anything.
The slur is spelled differently, and puff science (and its predecessor term puff/puffery) predate the slur by over a century.
Puff is not a slur, puff science indicates that it’s vaporous or there is no basis or grounds.
Poof on the other hand, could be taken as a slur, sure.
Let’s relax.
Poof on the other hand, could be taken as a slur, sure.
Let’s relax.
Slur for homosexual?
Might also be a connection between risk takers and gamblers. At least when I was growing up it wasn't always games, it was often general risk taking that signified the future gamblers.
I'm not sure how much sense it makes to talk about 9 year old children "liking" gambling. Sure, genetic predisposition undoubtedly plays a role in any behaviour, but do you really think childhood experiences have no effect on shaping adult behaviour? Kids brains are still developing and it's hardly a stretch to suggest that uncontrolled exposure to heavily-optimised addiction generators could encourage a gambling habit as much as exploit an inherent tendency.
I’d be interested in seeing if specific gaming activities is associated with increased gambling, as well as longitudinal studies to determine a timeline (first I opened loot boxes, then I started gambling).
I’m worried about the growing amount of gambling in society, specifically among young men. I’m shocked that sports betting was allowed to become legal in my country (US). I’m skeptical of the video game gateway hypothesis, but this is such an important problem that we need to look at it from multiple angles.
I’m worried about the growing amount of gambling in society, specifically among young men. I’m shocked that sports betting was allowed to become legal in my country (US). I’m skeptical of the video game gateway hypothesis, but this is such an important problem that we need to look at it from multiple angles.
Have you played any prominent mobile games in the last few years? The gacha model is dominant, it would not surprise me at all if this is priming children for gambling.
It's not what "gamers" think of as gaming but there are dozens of mobile games each with hundreds of millions of active players, it is a massive market with a lot of it focused on children and teens. If it has any even slight contribution towards gambling addiction the social consequences will be massive over the next couple decades.
It's not what "gamers" think of as gaming but there are dozens of mobile games each with hundreds of millions of active players, it is a massive market with a lot of it focused on children and teens. If it has any even slight contribution towards gambling addiction the social consequences will be massive over the next couple decades.
I remember watching some pirate streams of UFC pay per view fights about a decade ago. The streams were being provided by someone in the UK, and apparently had commercials between each fight. Every single commercial was for sports gambling, and I just remembered thinking every time "I'm glad this isn't an issue in the US." I'm a bit sad that's no longer the case.
We're also getting attacked from multiple angles. When trying to set up a study, it would be impossible to control for all the gambling ads we get bombarded with, especially during events you can gamble on!
I mean we could look at it from multiple angles...but commercial TV in Australia, and advertising in general is basically wall to wall gambling advertising for sports betting.
I feel like looking at the adolescent to adult years, you could basically ask "maybe a deluge of gambling advertising during the formative years has a significant impact on the target demographic audience for it (i.e. in Australia it is definitely white male coded in terms of actors and faces).
Which is the problem I have with trying to take any other factor with a demographic selector and draw conclusions from correlation: environmentally I don't see how you isolate the incredible amount of gambling targeted messaging out there.
I feel like looking at the adolescent to adult years, you could basically ask "maybe a deluge of gambling advertising during the formative years has a significant impact on the target demographic audience for it (i.e. in Australia it is definitely white male coded in terms of actors and faces).
Which is the problem I have with trying to take any other factor with a demographic selector and draw conclusions from correlation: environmentally I don't see how you isolate the incredible amount of gambling targeted messaging out there.
Really weird that the label loot boxes and gambling mechanics in games as recent trends and mostly ignore them, as they imho are the main culprit here.
These kids don't transition from gaming to gambling. They switch from gambling in games like Counter-Strike, Fifa or Apex Legends, to gambling on online casinos.
Also from what I have witnessed, this transition already happens while they are still minors, as many of the big casinos have no KYC until you want to cash out again.
These kids don't transition from gaming to gambling. They switch from gambling in games like Counter-Strike, Fifa or Apex Legends, to gambling on online casinos.
Also from what I have witnessed, this transition already happens while they are still minors, as many of the big casinos have no KYC until you want to cash out again.
I am fighting gaming, TV, YouTube and phone addiction at the moment.
It is very hard for me to find something else to do, especially at home.
But I try to have projects going every day and try to go out and see people and have a community I visit frequently.
No porn? You got that going for you at least! I believe we're all struggling with that TBH.
If you have a naturally addictive personality (or lack of strong enough mental guards against), maybe directing those affections towards something cheaper and more healthy is the solution. Find a virtue in obsession.
Get into some physical sports, gym or otherwise, indoor or outdoor, doesn't matter whatever clicks for ya. And do them without screens, they are not useful in any way. After getting deep enough, those previous addictions will look like a pathetic shallow waste of precious little short life we all have. Plus you will feel much better. Plus you will look much better and more attractive.
Get into some physical sports, gym or otherwise, indoor or outdoor, doesn't matter whatever clicks for ya. And do them without screens, they are not useful in any way. After getting deep enough, those previous addictions will look like a pathetic shallow waste of precious little short life we all have. Plus you will feel much better. Plus you will look much better and more attractive.
Why not study the effects of legalized gambling for children - i.e. the ticket machines at Dave and Busters/Chuck-e-Cheese?
Also, to see the impacts of gambling addiction in the funniest way possible, see BossManJack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qztd9eOuwsc
Also, to see the impacts of gambling addiction in the funniest way possible, see BossManJack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qztd9eOuwsc
There's so much wrong with the gambling industry as a whole and the way the same tactics have seeped into casual and online gaming is a real problem.
I'm sure that the blame will be correctly placed on the predatory gambling and video games companies rather than the parents for letting their kids play video games.
There's an eye opening look into how the gambling industry has changed in recent years on Michael Lewis' latest season of against the rules if you are interested in the topic: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules
I'm sure that the blame will be correctly placed on the predatory gambling and video games companies rather than the parents for letting their kids play video games.
There's an eye opening look into how the gambling industry has changed in recent years on Michael Lewis' latest season of against the rules if you are interested in the topic: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules
Anecdotal, as a kid I was really into CS:GO skin betting. Ended up losing my entire collection, never gambled since.
The entire skin gambling scene is a big reason why I don’t touch the game anymore. It seeps into everything around CS and now you can’t watch a professional match without seeing a sponsorship from a skin casino, can’t watch a YouTube video without a sponsorship.
This is also why I don’t like the way some gamers treat Valve as the only ethical company in the industry. CS skin gambling is like what if you take the lootbox mechanism and pave it over the game’s entire ecosystem.
This is also why I don’t like the way some gamers treat Valve as the only ethical company in the industry. CS skin gambling is like what if you take the lootbox mechanism and pave it over the game’s entire ecosystem.
It’s the kids who win big you need to worry about (anecdotal, not me, but a big win concurrent with a bad time during formative years can have a lasting impact on people who then ultimately become addicts).
The abstract kind of covers my thought on the headline:
> Given more recent introductions of loot boxes and social casino games, continuous research is needed for future cohorts which may be greater affected by such developments.
The route from COD4 and FIFA 08 (the games popular when the "early childhood" cohort had their initial gaming activity measured) to online gambling is a lot longer than the route from the latest COD Warzone and Fifa Ultimate Team to online gambling.
> Given more recent introductions of loot boxes and social casino games, continuous research is needed for future cohorts which may be greater affected by such developments.
The route from COD4 and FIFA 08 (the games popular when the "early childhood" cohort had their initial gaming activity measured) to online gambling is a lot longer than the route from the latest COD Warzone and Fifa Ultimate Team to online gambling.
I think it's probably worse than what the study is saying:
>ongitudinal data from Ireland to examine whether computer game engagement at 9-years-old (collected in 2007/8), and online gaming at 17 and 20
Imagine gaming 15 years ago compared to now. Today with things like micro-transactions and loot boxes there's much more gambling adjacent behavior in games.
>ongitudinal data from Ireland to examine whether computer game engagement at 9-years-old (collected in 2007/8), and online gaming at 17 and 20
Imagine gaming 15 years ago compared to now. Today with things like micro-transactions and loot boxes there's much more gambling adjacent behavior in games.
FIFA 09 and TF2 were both huge mainstream games that had loot crates/microtransactions 15 years ago. Others followed suit immediately. Tons of cookie cutter free to play online games (think Facebook FarmVille style games) did as well. I think there's a reason that's when they started.
Of course it existed back then, my point is that it's far worse now.
Gaming and Gambling used to be separate until what year? What gaming product broke this barrier?
Magic the gathering
edit: not hating, i love magic but booster packs started this whole thing IMO. The idea being you can get players to purchase products many times over
edit: not hating, i love magic but booster packs started this whole thing IMO. The idea being you can get players to purchase products many times over
Never worked for me that way, for one we found out how to find certain rares at that time, bought boxes (Second edition I think), got the good rares out, sold the rest packs.
It was more people buying boxes back then, opening, and selling the cards for profits (university mid 90s) than me buying lots of MTG in the hope to find something. We also played mostly with what we had, perhaps professional tournaments changed that.
Funnily, cards that people played back then, are worthless today, cards we considered average, are worth 1000+ EUR. Still have ~5000 EUR MTG cards somewhere.
It was more people buying boxes back then, opening, and selling the cards for profits (university mid 90s) than me buying lots of MTG in the hope to find something. We also played mostly with what we had, perhaps professional tournaments changed that.
Funnily, cards that people played back then, are worthless today, cards we considered average, are worth 1000+ EUR. Still have ~5000 EUR MTG cards somewhere.
CS GO lootboxes that then get adopted by the rest of the industry. I don't think it's because people like to gamble though, but rather that demand for cosmetics (especially in Asia) is more inelastic than thought so far greater profits can be gleaned then slapping a definite price tag.
TF2 had lootboxes ("crates") back in 2010, a couple of years before CS:GO was released - I think this was Valve's first major foray into them. And it was really easy to trade the items, or buy/sell them on the Steam marketplace.
I don't know how the relative market caps compared, but I remember reading years ago that a hat in TF2 had sold for $14k...
I don't know how the relative market caps compared, but I remember reading years ago that a hat in TF2 had sold for $14k...
People probably not buying, but the most expensive item now on marketplace.tf is $9,499.99. Myself bought ~$200 cosmetics, mostly strange killstreak ones I play (Sheep with a gun).
But also never bought a key. Recently sold old loot boxes for $15 each, nice.
https://marketplace.tf/browse/tf2?ssortfield=min_price
But also never bought a key. Recently sold old loot boxes for $15 each, nice.
https://marketplace.tf/browse/tf2?ssortfield=min_price
I always found it interesting that the older crates (or at least, some of them) sold for so much. I'm sure it's not unique, but the idea of selling the lootboxes themselves to other players doesn't seem like such a common thing compared to just opening them and selling the contents.
Team Fortress 2 had crates/keys before CSGO was released - but the blame definitely falls on Valve's shoulders in this timeline (I'm sure if Valve didn't create them in the popular form, someone at EA would have)
Casinos?
Blackjack, roulette, craps, slot machines, poker, and many other games have long been used for gambling.
Also sports betting has been a thing for nearly all of human civilization.
Blackjack, roulette, craps, slot machines, poker, and many other games have long been used for gambling.
Also sports betting has been a thing for nearly all of human civilization.
All of those I would say are gambling from the very beginning.
Computer Games used to have nothing whatsoever to do with Gambling, until about 2010 its seems (going from the other comments in this thread).
Computer Games used to have nothing whatsoever to do with Gambling, until about 2010 its seems (going from the other comments in this thread).
Atari blackjack was released in 1977…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack_(Atari_2600_video_ga...
I remember Texas Hold’em being a thing on the early days of the internet as well.
Gambling video games have been around a long time. I see this as just another moral panic not unlike the “Doom causes school shootings” narrative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack_(Atari_2600_video_ga...
I remember Texas Hold’em being a thing on the early days of the internet as well.
Gambling video games have been around a long time. I see this as just another moral panic not unlike the “Doom causes school shootings” narrative.
For sure all the mobile gaming based on microtransactions, collectibles, the Skinner box principle and other dark patterns leading to addition.
In east Asia, about 20 years ago with gacha games like Maple Story and slightly later with games that you'd play for free in an Internet Cafe, but would offer you loot crates. It became news in the west when EA took notice and added loot crates in FIFA 09, then TF2 famously was made free to play in order to hook more people in and push loot crates on them. It took off from there. Throughout this time there were Facebook games like this and eventually games like Puzzle and Dragons were pretty mainstream on mobile platforms by 2011.
Also of note, in many jurisdictions that regulate gambling, companies have found loopholes that offer arcade style "games of skill" that are still like 99.9% games of chance to get around gambling regulations. So gambling is also becoming more like gaming. It's enshittification all the way down.
Also of note, in many jurisdictions that regulate gambling, companies have found loopholes that offer arcade style "games of skill" that are still like 99.9% games of chance to get around gambling regulations. So gambling is also becoming more like gaming. It's enshittification all the way down.
I don't how it impacts the results, but it's relevant to keep in mind the data is self reported.
If for instance kids who played games at an eraly age have less stigma towards exposing their hobbies, their self reported gambling numbers will also be affected.
If for instance kids who played games at an eraly age have less stigma towards exposing their hobbies, their self reported gambling numbers will also be affected.
I already think grouping these things in a sentence is problematic,
"gaming and gambling opportunities in contemporary society"
and putting gaming first shows bias and implies assumed causality,
why not "gambling and gaming"?
A interesting 3 video series about the casino scene in CS2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58dLWjRTBE
CS2 is basically the only game I play any more. Just the other day I was playing with a guy who had just dropped 3k on a knife skin.
Likely correlation and not causation, Gambling addiction is just like any other addiction, and no one has answered the question of ‘why’ one becomes an addict. Most likely the causation is more closely related to the upbringing of the child, and the genetics passed down from the parents.
I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the causal links.
Online games have a strong gambling component - lootboxes, randomized awards, etc.
An advance enough, Skinner box is indistinguishable from slot machine.
Online games have a strong gambling component - lootboxes, randomized awards, etc.
An advance enough, Skinner box is indistinguishable from slot machine.
Except you actually sometimes get money back from the slot machine, with gaming lootboxes/gacha/microtransactions you're just getting imaginary digital goods that will disappear as soon as the company shuts down the game's servers.
It’s basically genetics, but it’s not politically palatable to say that someone was doomed from birth. We’re all equal or something.
Anecdotal, I know, have been gaming for ~45 years (started ~8), played hundreds (thousands?) of games, never bet, never gambled, neither offline or online, no inclination to ever do that.
Eh it's like someone telling you they've had a drink twice a week for decades and been fine. Sure but alcohol abuse and addiction are still huge problems with trends affected by the broader culture around advertising and access. We're talking about population-scale influence not individual destiny.
I might just be too dumb to read even an abstract, but it sounds like they said "meh idk, no strong evidence"
(also curious if they'd call going hard on crypto / options "gambling" or not :P, which might be more about how hard it is to get ahead in todays economy than playing games as a kid, but that point is a very hard digression from what we're talking about here).
(also curious if they'd call going hard on crypto / options "gambling" or not :P, which might be more about how hard it is to get ahead in todays economy than playing games as a kid, but that point is a very hard digression from what we're talking about here).
They're not talking about playing Mario Kart, but more about things like loot boxes, which really is akin to gambling.
"Loot boxes have come under fire from lawmakers and regulators around the world who claim selling random chances at rare or coveted in-game items is akin to gambling."
https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/22/22295676/epic-games-fortn...
"Loot boxes have come under fire from lawmakers and regulators around the world who claim selling random chances at rare or coveted in-game items is akin to gambling."
https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/22/22295676/epic-games-fortn...
As someone who doesn't gamble, I have no idea how to interpret this statement:
>> online gaming at 17 was associated with 1.4 higher odds of more frequent online gambling at 20 years
>> online gaming at 17 was associated with 1.4 higher odds of more frequent online gambling at 20 years
Without reading the article, I bet these problems exists because kids/teens are playing "games" on mobile phones.
Big difference to PC or console games.
Mobile phones games are made only with one purpose, to vacuum parent's credit card.
I hope EU will put some measures in place, to ban Pay2win mobile phone games.
Big difference to PC or console games.
Mobile phones games are made only with one purpose, to vacuum parent's credit card.
I hope EU will put some measures in place, to ban Pay2win mobile phone games.
Interestingly the dataset they have on 9 year olds is about computer gaming specifically, and they show no correlation with gambling. The other dataset of 17 year olds is specifically about online gaming.
There's a push to get rid of most of the common practices:
https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...
https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...
That doesn't mean that gaming makes you like gambling. There are many player archetypes, some of which get enjoyment out of games from factors that are quite dissimilar from gambling, and they will probably never gravitate towards it. I could see the reverse being true though, probably gambling does make you like some kinds of gaming.
Also, this is saying that online gaming is correlated with online gambling. Well yeah, it's all sitting at the computer playing competitive games against strangers, money or not it's a similar activity.
Indeed, they show no correlation between "playing games at 9" and "online gambling at 20". It might be the age difference, but it also might be that gaming in general has little correlation with online gambling, it's just competitive online gaming that correlates, which makes a lot of sense.