Ask HN: US Visa for foreign founders after first seed
33 comments
I'm a European founder as well. You certainly have extra options with your status; however, one option you seem to be dismissing is simply not to move.
Silicon Valley is extremely expensive. You'll burn through a large chunk of your $100k on moving costs and rent and waste a ton of time -- Changing your home continent takes several weeks of preparation and can take several more weeks of toll in energy and post-move management).
IMHO, from your post it doesn't sound like you have the cash to afford this and found your startup. Don't do it; you don't have to, that'll give you a huge advantage.
Silicon Valley is extremely expensive. You'll burn through a large chunk of your $100k on moving costs and rent and waste a ton of time -- Changing your home continent takes several weeks of preparation and can take several more weeks of toll in energy and post-move management).
IMHO, from your post it doesn't sound like you have the cash to afford this and found your startup. Don't do it; you don't have to, that'll give you a huge advantage.
This is not an option...investors want that I move
You're allowed to say no to your investors. In this case it sounds like you probably should.
$100k isn't giving you much runway in SV. You won't be able to hire anyone, and would soon be out of cash and have to leave (you'll save a portion of your cash for that right?).
If there's something you really want to move to SV for, come for 2 months, stay in an airbnb, and do what you need to do. If you need to and can, raise more money (investors or revenue) if you're set on moving here.
$100k isn't giving you much runway in SV. You won't be able to hire anyone, and would soon be out of cash and have to leave (you'll save a portion of your cash for that right?).
If there's something you really want to move to SV for, come for 2 months, stay in an airbnb, and do what you need to do. If you need to and can, raise more money (investors or revenue) if you're set on moving here.
In your OP, you said you have multiple investment sources. How much of the 100k requires moving to SV? Consider how long it'll take you to build the business to profitability. Consider the increase in rent. Consider the cost of your move. This could be netting you absolutely nothing.
My advice, FWIW, is to really think hard about what others here are saying as well - don't move just now. Do your investors have a really good reason for you to go there that is provably critical to the success of your startup? Many of these people just want to keep their investment where they can see it. As someone who has moved countries frequently (now on my 8th) I can tell you that it is massive investment in terms of time and money, both of which you are probably better off putting in your business. The USA and SV aren't going anywhere, they will still be here in another year or so (at least, i'd like to think so) when you are past the helter-skelter startup days, and will be in a position to create some more breathing room. In the meantime, nothing stopping you from popping over when it is absolutely required.
Your investor is being unrealistic. You can barely hire a single developer in SV with 100K. I recommend set aside a traveling budget of two weeks or in two or three trips so and do what you need to do.
Another option is to not take their money and build the business yourself.
And don't underestimate the cost of living in Silicon Valley. $100k would barely cover your expenses for a year, maybe even less. Nevermind hiring other people and growing a business.
And don't underestimate the cost of living in Silicon Valley. $100k would barely cover your expenses for a year, maybe even less. Nevermind hiring other people and growing a business.
I have read the many fine suggestions and comments to this thread.
If I were in this situation I would approach it from a somewhat different angle. Taking three steps:
1. Stay where you are and use the funding to create a demonstrable MVP.
2. Once the MVP is ready for demonstrations, then visit SV/USA on a B1 visa. Conduct the meetings, demo the MVP AND negotiate next round funding. As required for a B1 do not actually work on the product whilst in the USA.
3. Assuming you get $2m+ for round 2, then you return home, get the appropriate visa lined up and then make the move. While waiting for the wheels of bureaucrazy to grind by, you would do further work on your product.
As many comments suggest, $100k won't last long in SV. Immigration legal services don't come cheap either. Immigration process takes a long time to complete appropriately. You will waste a lot of time and money relocating. If you don't get a substantial second round of funding you will have to pack up and go back to EU.
If I were in this situation I would approach it from a somewhat different angle. Taking three steps:
1. Stay where you are and use the funding to create a demonstrable MVP.
2. Once the MVP is ready for demonstrations, then visit SV/USA on a B1 visa. Conduct the meetings, demo the MVP AND negotiate next round funding. As required for a B1 do not actually work on the product whilst in the USA.
3. Assuming you get $2m+ for round 2, then you return home, get the appropriate visa lined up and then make the move. While waiting for the wheels of bureaucrazy to grind by, you would do further work on your product.
As many comments suggest, $100k won't last long in SV. Immigration legal services don't come cheap either. Immigration process takes a long time to complete appropriately. You will waste a lot of time and money relocating. If you don't get a substantial second round of funding you will have to pack up and go back to EU.
The MVP is already done and I've customers (sv companies) already.
The 100k will be used only for cover immigration costs/living costs/server costs/ some freelancers(design,copywrite etc...) until I raise another round from sv investors.
The 100k will be used only for cover immigration costs/living costs/server costs/ some freelancers(design,copywrite etc...) until I raise another round from sv investors.
I'm also a European founder who initially came out to Berkeley for school. Before my student visa expired I put together an E-2 application that ultimately got denied. It's a complex visa that requires a lot of documentation, so highly recommend you get an experienced immigration lawyer who can guide you through the process, understands the business side of things and can help you avoid any pitfalls. Some things to consider for the E-2 from my experience:
- You need to own >50% of the company at the time of application or if you have co-founders from the same country, collectively you need to own >50%.
- You do need to invest your own money in the company - there isn't a defined amount but your company needs to have a plausible path to financial sustainability, generating profits and ideally hiring US workers. Like you say, IP can count toward this investment. I invested my savings in the company, but they weren't convinced it was irrevocably committed because most of it hadn't been spent (!)
- If you're investing money, make sure you show where the money came from and how it was earned (in my case, some was gifted by family through inheritance and it got super messy especially as we hadn't been clear from the outset)
- The E-2 is time limited and doesn't have a path to residence - meaning it is either issued for a 2 or 5 year period and has to be renewed. At renewal you'll need to show that your company is still going strong, otherwise it could be denied. You'll need to find other options for a Green Card / Citizenship.
- You can apply in your home country or in the US as a change of status. Better to apply in your country as this gives you a physical visa that allows you to come and go. If you only have a change of status, if you leave you'll have to apply for the E-2 in your home country all over again.
- US Embassies in different countries have slightly different approaches around the E-2 or requirements in how the documents are filed. Take a close look at their website and ideally get a lawyer who is familiar with the embassy that you intend to apply through.
Get some good advice, most lawyers will give you a short initial consultation for free. Avvo.com was a life-saver. Peter Roberts who advises a lot of YC companies is also highly recommended.
Thankfully my wife ended up getting us green cards through her own employment... I think there's some truth to the other comment about not moving. Living costs are very high in the SF Bay Area, talent comes at a premium and it's increasingly difficult for smaller startups to recruit great people.
- You need to own >50% of the company at the time of application or if you have co-founders from the same country, collectively you need to own >50%.
- You do need to invest your own money in the company - there isn't a defined amount but your company needs to have a plausible path to financial sustainability, generating profits and ideally hiring US workers. Like you say, IP can count toward this investment. I invested my savings in the company, but they weren't convinced it was irrevocably committed because most of it hadn't been spent (!)
- If you're investing money, make sure you show where the money came from and how it was earned (in my case, some was gifted by family through inheritance and it got super messy especially as we hadn't been clear from the outset)
- The E-2 is time limited and doesn't have a path to residence - meaning it is either issued for a 2 or 5 year period and has to be renewed. At renewal you'll need to show that your company is still going strong, otherwise it could be denied. You'll need to find other options for a Green Card / Citizenship.
- You can apply in your home country or in the US as a change of status. Better to apply in your country as this gives you a physical visa that allows you to come and go. If you only have a change of status, if you leave you'll have to apply for the E-2 in your home country all over again.
- US Embassies in different countries have slightly different approaches around the E-2 or requirements in how the documents are filed. Take a close look at their website and ideally get a lawyer who is familiar with the embassy that you intend to apply through.
Get some good advice, most lawyers will give you a short initial consultation for free. Avvo.com was a life-saver. Peter Roberts who advises a lot of YC companies is also highly recommended.
Thankfully my wife ended up getting us green cards through her own employment... I think there's some truth to the other comment about not moving. Living costs are very high in the SF Bay Area, talent comes at a premium and it's increasingly difficult for smaller startups to recruit great people.
Have you considered O-1 visa?
It sounds intimidating, but many of the requirements are rather easy, i.e. "international prize" can mean getting an app in App Store or Google Play selections, "being a member of professional organizations" can be having an account on Dribbble or Scoutzie, publications online count as "having media publications", etc.
It sounds intimidating, but many of the requirements are rather easy, i.e. "international prize" can mean getting an app in App Store or Google Play selections, "being a member of professional organizations" can be having an account on Dribbble or Scoutzie, publications online count as "having media publications", etc.
Can you provide any sources for the examples you provided being accepted to satisfy O-1 visa criteria? If things really were this easy, I'm surprised this isn't discussed more.
Oh interesting...is really so easy ?
I haven't done it, but you can get a B1 visa which gives you 6 months entry into the United States. http://www.ustraveldocs.com/au/au-niv-typeb1b2.asp
This gives you some time to figure out if Silicon Valley is the right move for you, and to help you grow your business in the US. However, it is a temporary visa, so the expectation is that you would return to the EU after it expires. I'm sure many people use the 6 months to find a way to stay in the US.
This gives you some time to figure out if Silicon Valley is the right move for you, and to help you grow your business in the US. However, it is a temporary visa, so the expectation is that you would return to the EU after it expires. I'm sure many people use the 6 months to find a way to stay in the US.
Not good advice, a B1 does not allow you to operate a business (though you can do sales or take meetings). You need to speak with a lawyer to determine what counts as working on your business. Also it's very hard to get a B1 as a European due to the visa waiver program which gives you 90 days - you need a very good excuse why those 90 days aren't enough (remember you aren't allowed to operate a business), and if they reject you then for ever after you have to click the button on the immigration form saying 'have you ever been denied a US visa'.
Your best options are the O1, if you think you can meet three of the eight criteria, or the E-2 visa. Both will cost $5-10k in legal fees and distract from building your business. Eligibility for E-2 with $100k in investment (must be from your home country does not have to be from you) will depend on your business plan.
Either way, you have to talk to a lawyer not an internet forum. Most lawyers will give you advice for free on the expectation that you will pay them to do the work.
Your best options are the O1, if you think you can meet three of the eight criteria, or the E-2 visa. Both will cost $5-10k in legal fees and distract from building your business. Eligibility for E-2 with $100k in investment (must be from your home country does not have to be from you) will depend on your business plan.
Either way, you have to talk to a lawyer not an internet forum. Most lawyers will give you advice for free on the expectation that you will pay them to do the work.
afair what you say is not correct - please correct me if i am wrong
* getting a B1 is very easy (you essentially just need to provide a valid reason - eg fundraising or sales for your company)
* everyone can own US businesses afair - you are just not allowed to start a individual business or receive salary from it
* s/he might just get employed at the european entity
b1 is afair even suggested for this kind of case - get an b1 - see if you can get more funding - if yes go for long term e1/e2
afair the e1/e2 is issued by your local embassy directly - so you can discuss w/ them your actual investment - might be easier than O1 for your own company
PS: most importantly: as seen in this thread and mention by comment above: rely on lawyers not on contradicting forums posts
* getting a B1 is very easy (you essentially just need to provide a valid reason - eg fundraising or sales for your company)
* everyone can own US businesses afair - you are just not allowed to start a individual business or receive salary from it
* s/he might just get employed at the european entity
b1 is afair even suggested for this kind of case - get an b1 - see if you can get more funding - if yes go for long term e1/e2
afair the e1/e2 is issued by your local embassy directly - so you can discuss w/ them your actual investment - might be easier than O1 for your own company
PS: most importantly: as seen in this thread and mention by comment above: rely on lawyers not on contradicting forums posts
"afair" is not good enough if you are dealing with US immigration.
B1 is very easy. So much so that there's no reason to not apply to a B1/B2 at the same time even you are just going to visit on vacation. Who knows, you might find that there will be a conference near your hotel, which you wouldn't be able to attend as a tourist.
Now, let's get some info from UCSIS:
https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/b-1-business-visitor/un...
"+ How do I demonstrate that the purpose of my trip is to explore starting a business?"
" A written statement detailing the purpose of your visit, the activities you will participate in, and the intended duration of your stay Meeting confirmations (letters, emails, etc.) Meeting agendas/outlines/read-aheads Invitations for trade shows, conferences, meetings, etc. Evidence of acceptance into an incubator or accelerator program, including a description of the program activities and duration Evidence of the source of payment or other compensation, if any, you will be receiving while in the United States"
So, B1 seems to allow what the OP wants to do.
But then again, I'm not a lawyer. OP should get one.
B1 is very easy. So much so that there's no reason to not apply to a B1/B2 at the same time even you are just going to visit on vacation. Who knows, you might find that there will be a conference near your hotel, which you wouldn't be able to attend as a tourist.
Now, let's get some info from UCSIS:
https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/b-1-business-visitor/un...
"+ How do I demonstrate that the purpose of my trip is to explore starting a business?"
" A written statement detailing the purpose of your visit, the activities you will participate in, and the intended duration of your stay Meeting confirmations (letters, emails, etc.) Meeting agendas/outlines/read-aheads Invitations for trade shows, conferences, meetings, etc. Evidence of acceptance into an incubator or accelerator program, including a description of the program activities and duration Evidence of the source of payment or other compensation, if any, you will be receiving while in the United States"
So, B1 seems to allow what the OP wants to do.
But then again, I'm not a lawyer. OP should get one.
yeah, but for a European who has ESTA you have to explain why you need 180 days not 90 days. They are very suspicious of why you need longer, I know because I tried and got rejected and then had to tick that box while getting my O1 and EB1. You are depending on the whim of the guy you meet on the day. Best to stick to ESTA and avoid B1.
Yes this is exactly my experience too.
There is no minimum investment for an E2 visa. My lawyer who is currently assisting me through the process has gotten approvals for investments of just $14,000.
Wow... $ 14k for what kind of business and where ?
where are you from ?
where are you from ?
I am thinking of starting a dev shop :P. I am from Mexico by the way. Unfortunately, the E2 visa is only valid for a year for us so I will have to renew frequently.
More info on the minimum required below:
https://www.meltzerhellrung.com/blog/what-do-e-2-proportiona...
More info on the minimum required below:
https://www.meltzerhellrung.com/blog/what-do-e-2-proportiona...
Thank you, but for my experience (spoke with some lawyer) while this is legally true(no min investment required) it's really hard that they accept your request with only $14k-20k invested in your business in 2017.
Specially if you're moving around a big city(or silicon valley).
Specially if you're moving around a big city(or silicon valley).
My home country of residence or of citizenship ?
> I'm working on a project and I'm raising about $ 100k from some friends and angels(some are based in US)
The question is, why do they want you to move? Do you really have to? If so, you'll probably have to change your strategy.
If the investors want you to move so much, get them to foot your extra expenses, or at the very least your rental bills (so, additional funding). Otherwise you'll burn through your runway way too quickly.
I do think the runway analogy is a very apt one. Except that, in Silicon Valley, the runway is made out of acid.
The question is, why do they want you to move? Do you really have to? If so, you'll probably have to change your strategy.
If the investors want you to move so much, get them to foot your extra expenses, or at the very least your rental bills (so, additional funding). Otherwise you'll burn through your runway way too quickly.
I do think the runway analogy is a very apt one. Except that, in Silicon Valley, the runway is made out of acid.
It's just a pre-seed and investors want that I move because all my customers are in sv.
This is an excellent reason to move. I'd recommend finding a lawyer for real advice.
have you considered just coming illegally and dealing with this later? SF is a sanctuary city.
"SF declared itself a sanctuary city in 1989, and city officials strengthened the stance in 2013 with its 'Due Process for All' ordinance. The law declared local authorities could not hold immigrants for immigration officials if they had no violent felonies on their records and did not currently face charges.""
Also in January 2017 a bill was proposed in the California State Legislature to make California a "sanctuary state."
"SF declared itself a sanctuary city in 1989, and city officials strengthened the stance in 2013 with its 'Due Process for All' ordinance. The law declared local authorities could not hold immigrants for immigration officials if they had no violent felonies on their records and did not currently face charges.""
Also in January 2017 a bill was proposed in the California State Legislature to make California a "sanctuary state."
As someone from outside the US, this is a crazy suggestion.
It would be an immediate red flag for future investors and would also scupper legal access to other countries like UK, Australia, Canada in the future. Don't do this.
It would be an immediate red flag for future investors and would also scupper legal access to other countries like UK, Australia, Canada in the future. Don't do this.
I'm working on a project and I'm raising about $ 100k from some friends and angels(some are based in US)
I'm a european citizen and some investors want that I move to silicon valley(and I'm ok with that), but how can I legally do ? what visa options do I have ?
I've heard of E-2 Visa[1] but I don't have any money in cash that I can invest into my business.
I know that i should hear a lawyer but I want first understand what my options are(and if I can use my startup IP as asset)
How do you have done ?
Thank you.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-2_visa