Burnout, stress lead more companies to try a four-day work week(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Burnout, stress lead more companies to try a four-day work week
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-world-work-fourdayweek/burnout-stress-lead-more-companies-to-try-a-four-day-work-week-idUSKBN1OG0GY
93 comments
It's not the number of days but the constant fire drills, everything is always top priority, notifications coming at all hours... and at least with software dev very rarely is it a priority to fix poor quality things thereby making even more fire drills.
If fire drills are the norm rather than the exception, you should find another job because you are working at a poorly run company.
There is always a tension between delivering features and delivering quality, but that's no excuse for constant fire drills and notifications. It's possible to handle the tradeoff better than that.
There is always a tension between delivering features and delivering quality, but that's no excuse for constant fire drills and notifications. It's possible to handle the tradeoff better than that.
Totally, but that's the point. Most people probably don't actually need an extra day off (I mean, I'd take one, but...) to stymie burnout but rather a calmer, more sane environment when they are working.
Agree with you, but it's physically impossible for all developers to merely find a better job. Some can, but not all can, because of the limited number of companies out there.
As a result, we really should force employers to treat us better rather than viewing us as replaceable. They also need to learn that their way shouldn't be the only way.
As a result, we really should force employers to treat us better rather than viewing us as replaceable. They also need to learn that their way shouldn't be the only way.
How do you force employers to treat you better, some sort of artificial regulation?
We've never had greater labor mobility, remote options or demand for software developers; I question your premise of limited number of companies.
We've never had greater labor mobility, remote options or demand for software developers; I question your premise of limited number of companies.
I definitely see where you are coming from, and I personally wouldn't recommend "formal" actions like regulation or unionization.
I've been considering my options lately and the more I think about it, the more I hear "contracting" as one of the better ways to make liveable money without losing control over your working conditions + dialogue with client(s).
When you have constant, daily interaction with middle managers who are trying to become VPs or whatever, it can be extremely grating. Workplace politics, policies, and appearances are all created by these people so that they can protect their jobs and future bonuses.
So, perhaps consulting + contracting will create a barrier between you and the middle managers. They're forced to work with you more collaboratively because the CEO signs the checks on this one (hopefully), not the individual department you work for.
But yeah, out of the thousands of corporations and startups of all ages, industries, and sizes, I bet only 10% or less have an efficient, enjoyable, and equitable experience between low-ranking employees and their layers of management.
That's what is causing all the job-hopping and attempts to "trade-up" ;)
I've been considering my options lately and the more I think about it, the more I hear "contracting" as one of the better ways to make liveable money without losing control over your working conditions + dialogue with client(s).
When you have constant, daily interaction with middle managers who are trying to become VPs or whatever, it can be extremely grating. Workplace politics, policies, and appearances are all created by these people so that they can protect their jobs and future bonuses.
So, perhaps consulting + contracting will create a barrier between you and the middle managers. They're forced to work with you more collaboratively because the CEO signs the checks on this one (hopefully), not the individual department you work for.
But yeah, out of the thousands of corporations and startups of all ages, industries, and sizes, I bet only 10% or less have an efficient, enjoyable, and equitable experience between low-ranking employees and their layers of management.
That's what is causing all the job-hopping and attempts to "trade-up" ;)
For contractors in large companies, it's exactly those middle managers who sign the check. What's worse, the contracts are usually 6-12 months, and these guys decide if they'll be extended for another period. They also decide what the rate on the contract will be. So in reality, you need to pay at least as much attention to these guys (and internal politics, power struggles and all other bs) as a regular employee.
Unions. Laws. Collective action. Artificial regulation.
I would agree with you, but my gf is a unionized respiratory therapist.
Not only are her colleagues and managers extremely mean and unprofessional to her, the hospital executives are actively training the non-union nurses to replace the union respiratory therapists, because "cost".
Not only are her colleagues and managers extremely mean and unprofessional to her, the hospital executives are actively training the non-union nurses to replace the union respiratory therapists, because "cost".
That would be why you also unionize the nurses.
(And also not subject basic rights like healthcare to market forces, but that’s a bridge a little farther.)
(And also not subject basic rights like healthcare to market forces, but that’s a bridge a little farther.)
Just legislate that everyone has to be nice and give you lots of money. The intent of the law is all that matters if reality is any approximation of the truth.
I don't think there has ever been a better time to be on the job market as a software developer. There are more software companies than there have ever been, and job openings and salaries for developers are at an all-time high.
Even if you're happy where you are, if you started more than 5 years ago, you'd be shocked to hear what kinds of salaries are on offer now if you're willing to switch companies. That's a sign that companies view developers as scarce resources rather than replaceable commodities.
Even if you're happy where you are, if you started more than 5 years ago, you'd be shocked to hear what kinds of salaries are on offer now if you're willing to switch companies. That's a sign that companies view developers as scarce resources rather than replaceable commodities.
... if you want to live in the Bay.
Or Seattle, Austin, New York, the Raleigh area, etc. There are plenty of cities with a lot of software jobs.
Not with those income levels that get everyone talking.
If you’re at a startup this is my experience, but working for a stable company, I have not had a fire drill in my two years here.
I write software only though, I’m not doing DevOps. DevOps probably handles the fires.
I write software only though, I’m not doing DevOps. DevOps probably handles the fires.
That's ... not remotely devops
What you're describing is a legacy, traditional, (and terrible!) 'ops will fix it' mentality that often permeates larger companies where dev teams 'throw stuff over the wall' to another team for production deployments, outage triage, etc
A company with a devops culture deeply involves both developers and operations oriented folks from the start of a project to ensure best practices, reliability, and observability are being baked in from the start, that deployments are automated, and usually developers are more directly responsible for and involved in the operations of their software rather than having dedicated 'ops' teams doing 'firefighting'
Read some of the content put out by Gene Kim or Martin Fowler for a much more in depth look at devops culture and the benefits it can bring a company.
What you're describing is a legacy, traditional, (and terrible!) 'ops will fix it' mentality that often permeates larger companies where dev teams 'throw stuff over the wall' to another team for production deployments, outage triage, etc
A company with a devops culture deeply involves both developers and operations oriented folks from the start of a project to ensure best practices, reliability, and observability are being baked in from the start, that deployments are automated, and usually developers are more directly responsible for and involved in the operations of their software rather than having dedicated 'ops' teams doing 'firefighting'
Read some of the content put out by Gene Kim or Martin Fowler for a much more in depth look at devops culture and the benefits it can bring a company.
Devops makes this worse. When the cycle between issue discovery and new code deployment shortens enough everything becomes an emergency.
If it’s possible for a minor change to go into production within 24 hours, everything needs to be this fast. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1myllo/the-miracle-of-flight
If it’s possible for a minor change to go into production within 24 hours, everything needs to be this fast. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1myllo/the-miracle-of-flight
Prioritization problems exist independently from release cycle problems. "Everything becomes an emergency" is a symptom of broken priorities, not fast releases.
If you're in the habit of doing 24 hour turnarounds, then a 24 hour turnaround is no longer an "emergency", it's just normal process. No reason to panic, or to act panicked. Emergencies are only emergencies if they interrupt work-in-progress.
If you're in the habit of doing 24 hour turnarounds, then a 24 hour turnaround is no longer an "emergency", it's just normal process. No reason to panic, or to act panicked. Emergencies are only emergencies if they interrupt work-in-progress.
The problem is not releasing 24 hours after you start working on something. That you can plan for.
The problem is when you discover something to work on and want it released in 24 hours then you are throwing away any existing schedule as you can’t plan for what you don’t know about.
Call it an emergency or just day to day operations, but the only way to work like that is to give up on the idea of a schedule of any kind.
The problem is when you discover something to work on and want it released in 24 hours then you are throwing away any existing schedule as you can’t plan for what you don’t know about.
Call it an emergency or just day to day operations, but the only way to work like that is to give up on the idea of a schedule of any kind.
If you're thinking "but my employer will never do this", there's another alternative: you can negotiate.
As an existing employee you are hugely valuable, you know how things work, the tech stack, the business, who to talk to... Replacing that is hard. So you have a good negotiating position.
It's also possible to negotiate for a shorter workweek at new jobs, though it's more difficult.
I've done this at 3 different companies, and you'll see in the comments here that others have as well. E.g. I interviewed one programmer who has been working 4 days a week for 15 years: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer...
And if you want to learn how to do this but aren't sure where to begin, I've condensed my experience and research into a book: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/
As an existing employee you are hugely valuable, you know how things work, the tech stack, the business, who to talk to... Replacing that is hard. So you have a good negotiating position.
It's also possible to negotiate for a shorter workweek at new jobs, though it's more difficult.
I've done this at 3 different companies, and you'll see in the comments here that others have as well. E.g. I interviewed one programmer who has been working 4 days a week for 15 years: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer...
And if you want to learn how to do this but aren't sure where to begin, I've condensed my experience and research into a book: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/
For decades, I almost always worked four days a week, 32 hours/week total. Since I was working for mostly large companies, I didn’t make any sort of special deal to do this, I simply took a 20% pay cut. Well worth it. Looking back over the last 35 years, I don’t regret working less at all, with the extra time off spent with friends and family, and giving me time to write several books.
I could never negotiate that, so I quit the industry after 10-ish years and went into "leaner life-style, honest day's work" type of deal. Best thing I did with my life.
Oh, and Wim Hof breathing. Just the breathing, for now.
Oh, and Wim Hof breathing. Just the breathing, for now.
EDIT: for anyone curious, here is the official guide on Wim Hof breathing, copy-pasted from https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
---
Never practice the breathing exercises in a place where it could be dangerous to faint.
Step 1: Get comfortable
Before you start practicing the breathing exercises, it is important to get as comfortable as possible. Sit in a comfortable posture in which you can expand your lungs freely. To make sure that you can expand your lung for the fullest, it is recommended to practice the exercises on an empty stomach.
Step 2: 30 power breaths
For this first breathing exercise, imagine that you are blowing up a balloon. While using your midriff fully, inhale through your nose and exhale through your mouth. Use short and powerful bursts. Close your eyes and repeat 30 times. You can become light-headed during this exercise or experience a tingling sensation. This is normal.
Step 3: Retention after exhalation
After your 30 power breaths, fill your lungs to maximum capacity, but don’t force it. Exhale and hold for as long as you can. Hold your breath without forcing it, until you experience the gasp reflex.
Step 4: Recovery breath
Inhale to maximum capacity and feel your chest expanding. When your lungs are full, hold your breath for 10 seconds. Release the breath, and begin a new round. Repeat 3 to 4 times.
Step 5: Enjoy the feeling
Take your time to enjoy the feeling that the breathing exercises invoke. This feeling is similar to the effects of meditation and will get more powerful when you practice more often.
---
Never practice the breathing exercises in a place where it could be dangerous to faint.
Step 1: Get comfortable
Before you start practicing the breathing exercises, it is important to get as comfortable as possible. Sit in a comfortable posture in which you can expand your lungs freely. To make sure that you can expand your lung for the fullest, it is recommended to practice the exercises on an empty stomach.
Step 2: 30 power breaths
For this first breathing exercise, imagine that you are blowing up a balloon. While using your midriff fully, inhale through your nose and exhale through your mouth. Use short and powerful bursts. Close your eyes and repeat 30 times. You can become light-headed during this exercise or experience a tingling sensation. This is normal.
Step 3: Retention after exhalation
After your 30 power breaths, fill your lungs to maximum capacity, but don’t force it. Exhale and hold for as long as you can. Hold your breath without forcing it, until you experience the gasp reflex.
Step 4: Recovery breath
Inhale to maximum capacity and feel your chest expanding. When your lungs are full, hold your breath for 10 seconds. Release the breath, and begin a new round. Repeat 3 to 4 times.
Step 5: Enjoy the feeling
Take your time to enjoy the feeling that the breathing exercises invoke. This feeling is similar to the effects of meditation and will get more powerful when you practice more often.
I'm curious what kind of job you got after quitting the tech industry. Maybe I'll try it some day. :)
I go up a rope or down a rope to trim/take down a tree, sometimes to do some construction work. Industrial alpinism.
How did you manage to negotiate that? Especially for earlier career jobs?
It's harder earlier in career, but the guy I interviewed (mentioned in separate comment) successfully did it as his first job (https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer...). He was:
1. Existing employee, so he was valuable to them, and had proven he could work shorter hours since he'd been there part-time initially when he was in university.
2. Willing to quit. In fact, what actually happened is he said "I quit", they said "but we don't want you to quit" and he said "how about 4 day workweek".
This is not a very reproducible method, but I've interviewed another person (for my book - https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/) who was somewhat early in his career. Again, he did it at his current job, with willingness to leave if necessary.
1. Existing employee, so he was valuable to them, and had proven he could work shorter hours since he'd been there part-time initially when he was in university.
2. Willing to quit. In fact, what actually happened is he said "I quit", they said "but we don't want you to quit" and he said "how about 4 day workweek".
This is not a very reproducible method, but I've interviewed another person (for my book - https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/) who was somewhat early in his career. Again, he did it at his current job, with willingness to leave if necessary.
I have worked at a company where we had a mandatory 35 hours week and I definitely feel that less working hours leads to a more disciplined workplace where less time is being wasted. At that company we actually worked during work hours whereas in my current company we spend a lot of time in meetings and other interruptions so I think I actually work less time than 35 hours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law
"Parkinson's law is the adage that "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion". It is sometimes applied to the growth of bureaucracy in an organization. This law is likely derived from ideal gas law, whereby a gas expands to fit the volume allotted."
"Parkinson's law is the adage that "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion". It is sometimes applied to the growth of bureaucracy in an organization. This law is likely derived from ideal gas law, whereby a gas expands to fit the volume allotted."
I've thought about this idea quite a lot and shared it with a bunch of people. I've found that having that third day off (taking it as a vacation day to experiment) definitely helps me personally when it is adjacent to the weekend (e.g. Friday or Monday). However, I can totally see the need for having this third day be in the middle of the week to break up the week (e.g. Wednesday) or help with things like doing chores and getting to appointments when other people are working, but you're not. As a result, I think the third day off is most useful when you get to pick which day it is according to your particular circumstances.
I know having the day be flexible adds additional complexity, and even the risk of it not being taken / pressured into not taking, but I think it adds the most utility for everyone.
I know having the day be flexible adds additional complexity, and even the risk of it not being taken / pressured into not taking, but I think it adds the most utility for everyone.
True but there is no reason you can't do Wednesday > Friday > Wednesday every other week to give people a mix of three days off and a day during the week to do errands that are harder to do on the weekends.
I guess you could have a default day or default rotation (e.g. your Wednesday > Friday > Wednesday every other week) and then negotiate for one of the other days in lieu of the default when it makes things more convenient.
It'd help to avoid lumping all jobs into a single pile and proceeding to suggest a planet-wide remedy.
A software developer has different needs from a convenience store employee. I hope that's obvious.
I don't understand why this is even on HackerNews, because this article contains no news at all. It's just pandering to those who feel that working fewer hours is a good idea for them, nothing more.
ps. if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working more than 3-4 hours/day max. Maybe when there's basic income, we can start having honest conversations about how people actually work in software.
A software developer has different needs from a convenience store employee. I hope that's obvious.
I don't understand why this is even on HackerNews, because this article contains no news at all. It's just pandering to those who feel that working fewer hours is a good idea for them, nothing more.
ps. if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working more than 3-4 hours/day max. Maybe when there's basic income, we can start having honest conversations about how people actually work in software.
> I don't understand why this is even on HackerNews, because this article contains no news at all. It's just pandering...
Same goes for the constant cycle of "Hiring Software Developers Is Broken" articles that never fail to get a million comments.
Same goes for the constant cycle of "Hiring Software Developers Is Broken" articles that never fail to get a million comments.
> if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working more than 3-4 hours/day max.
There are stream online of people doing mental work for 10 hours (with 5 min bathroom/snack breaks). I don't know if it's genetics or training, but some people can do it.
There are stream online of people doing mental work for 10 hours (with 5 min bathroom/snack breaks). I don't know if it's genetics or training, but some people can do it.
When I had the freedom to set my own schedule, I found my max productivity came by doing 2-3 days of 14-16 hours grinding, followed by 1-3 days of break where I didn't "work" at all. This corresponded to just how complex an idea I could fit in my mind at a sufficiently fine-grained level of detail to do real work on it.
Cal Newport's "Deep Work" is another approach to this, turning maximum productivity into a daily, scheduled system. I've also been influenced by "Four Disciplines of Execution", specifically the first discipline - pick no more than three Wildly Important Goals, and do not work on anything else. If it's not a Wildly Important Goal (and it's not an actual emergency), it deserves zero attention.
I've been lucky at my current gig to be able to speak this language, to talk about the cost of interruption. When you have one job, you can focus 100%. When you have two, you don't get 50/50, but more like 40/40, with the remaining 20 lost to context switching. And the more often you context switch (or "multitask", hahaha), the more focus and momentum you lose. I'm sure a lot of knowledge workers lose north of 50% of their available productivity to the thermal losses of context switching.
Cal Newport's "Deep Work" is another approach to this, turning maximum productivity into a daily, scheduled system. I've also been influenced by "Four Disciplines of Execution", specifically the first discipline - pick no more than three Wildly Important Goals, and do not work on anything else. If it's not a Wildly Important Goal (and it's not an actual emergency), it deserves zero attention.
I've been lucky at my current gig to be able to speak this language, to talk about the cost of interruption. When you have one job, you can focus 100%. When you have two, you don't get 50/50, but more like 40/40, with the remaining 20 lost to context switching. And the more often you context switch (or "multitask", hahaha), the more focus and momentum you lose. I'm sure a lot of knowledge workers lose north of 50% of their available productivity to the thermal losses of context switching.
Whatever they do for 10 hours, will be automated in 10 years, by people who work 4 hours or less.
My opinion of course :)
My opinion of course :)
Isn't John Carmack able to code for 10+ hours straight? Will he be automated too? :) My point - as much as this forum seems to hate this notion (I usually get downvoted when I point it out), there's variance in human aptitude and stamina.
> ps. if you're in a job that involves using your brain, you're not working more than 3-4 hours/day max
This (not necessarily the quoted part, more so the article concept in general) is non-sense. People don't work enough. The problem is not the long hours, it's that people no longer have the stamina (mental, physical and emotional) to sustain a long work cycle so they think they "burn out".
This (not necessarily the quoted part, more so the article concept in general) is non-sense. People don't work enough. The problem is not the long hours, it's that people no longer have the stamina (mental, physical and emotional) to sustain a long work cycle so they think they "burn out".
> so they think they "burn out".
Do you not believe burnout is real? If so, I hope you never find out, because it is very real and sucks a lot.
Do you not believe burnout is real? If so, I hope you never find out, because it is very real and sucks a lot.
>People don't work enough.
Based on what metrics?
Based on what metrics?
What makes you think they ever did? And why should they anyway?
I have a feeling that if you can work 5-6 hours a day you've more than earned your salary. So, if a company can figure it out and let thew workers stay at home instead of browsing the internet at "work" more power to them.
So then I have confirmed it. I read about browsing the internet and generally no one working 8 hours a day it they work in software. Some days I literally don’t have work to do, so I browse the internet. Sometimes it’s nice to work on tasks around the home if I am working from home that day.
Management must know this. I consider it an unwritten/not talked about fact of working as a software developer.
Management must know this. I consider it an unwritten/not talked about fact of working as a software developer.
>>Some days I literally don’t have work to do, so I browse he internet.
Go home, that's the nature of the job. You earn your money on a few big projects for the entire year, but you are needed for the next round.
Alternate and keep track so the team gets a break and are somewhat indebted to the company. Maybe a few stay on call just in case...depending on the job.
Go home, that's the nature of the job. You earn your money on a few big projects for the entire year, but you are needed for the next round.
Alternate and keep track so the team gets a break and are somewhat indebted to the company. Maybe a few stay on call just in case...depending on the job.
Why would you bother staying at work if you have nothing to do. Take your laptop home and VPN for OC issues if that’s why.
But I can’t unders how you can have nothing to do. If you feel like doing nothing, that I understand. Some days just don’t work. But having nothing to do is quite surprising.
But I can’t unders how you can have nothing to do. If you feel like doing nothing, that I understand. Some days just don’t work. But having nothing to do is quite surprising.
I once heard this described as “in-office on-call”.
If your work is done but your collaborators or subordinates aren’t then you never know when they’ll need your help.
People get pretty bristly when they need you and can’t find you. Better for you to be there, or be officially sanctioned to be gone.
If your work is done but your collaborators or subordinates aren’t then you never know when they’ll need your help.
People get pretty bristly when they need you and can’t find you. Better for you to be there, or be officially sanctioned to be gone.
I like to work from home when there isn’t much work to do, so then I can have my laptop.
It’s common for us to have a code freeze, where we do not have any items in our backlog.
It’s common for us to have a code freeze, where we do not have any items in our backlog.
That's just piss poor management on several layers.
Perhaps have release branches and hotfix there, merging into master? May be a more enjoyable development cycle.
Unfortunately we only branch on release. We don’t have separate branches. Consider it as everyone working on master, and no merges m, just code reviews.
From the article: "companies around the world that have cut their work week have found that it leads to higher productivity".
I'm disappointed that the article does not even explore the question, at what point does productivity decrease? It says that going from 5 to 4 days brought about an increase. The natural question is, what would happen if you went to 3? To 2? 1?
Certainly at 0 days per week, productivity will decrease. And I know it will be a long time before even a 4-day week is the norm. But at least as an academic exercise, why is no one asking the question? What is the fewest number of hours per week that yields the same amount of productivity as 40? (Such a study would have use averages, of course.)
I'm disappointed that the article does not even explore the question, at what point does productivity decrease? It says that going from 5 to 4 days brought about an increase. The natural question is, what would happen if you went to 3? To 2? 1?
Certainly at 0 days per week, productivity will decrease. And I know it will be a long time before even a 4-day week is the norm. But at least as an academic exercise, why is no one asking the question? What is the fewest number of hours per week that yields the same amount of productivity as 40? (Such a study would have use averages, of course.)
Another thing a lot of companies could try is a five-day work week.
I only get stressed when I'm forced to attend stupid meetings. Without meetings a 4 days week would be doable for everybody.
Well it may seem obvious, but work to eliminate "stupid" meetings. Hold people to scheduled start times and time limits. Push hard for agendas and stick to them. Question the need for meetings you think are redundant or unnecessary.
Or do you mean meetings in general?
Or do you mean meetings in general?
Many people seem to believe it's hard/impossible to negotiate 4 day work week. Your negotiation position might be stronger than you think. Give it a try. Get creative. Approach it as you would a coding problem. Read a book about negotiations.
I have worked 4 days or less for about a decade now. Well worth it.
I have worked 4 days or less for about a decade now. Well worth it.
Monday morning off sounds like an awful idea.
First off, even when I lack sleep, I'll function better in the morning if I force myself out of bed, and I'll have a big slump in the afternoon.
If I sleep in instead to supposedly catch up sleep, I'll do OK.. but I won't feel any better in the afternoon.. I'll be a little off because of getting up late.
Secondly, afternoons are more depressing. I'd rather get out of bed, do a monday morning and then go home. It's really depressing in the winter, to leave work when it's already night outside. :/
But really screw "monday mornings" off, give me a monday off or nothing.
edit: not to mention the most obvious... people with long commutes coming to work for a few hours... really dumb.
First off, even when I lack sleep, I'll function better in the morning if I force myself out of bed, and I'll have a big slump in the afternoon.
If I sleep in instead to supposedly catch up sleep, I'll do OK.. but I won't feel any better in the afternoon.. I'll be a little off because of getting up late.
Secondly, afternoons are more depressing. I'd rather get out of bed, do a monday morning and then go home. It's really depressing in the winter, to leave work when it's already night outside. :/
But really screw "monday mornings" off, give me a monday off or nothing.
edit: not to mention the most obvious... people with long commutes coming to work for a few hours... really dumb.
>Monday morning off sounds like an awful idea.
> First off, even when I lack sleep, I'll function better in the morning if I force myself out of bed, and I'll have a big slump in the afternoon.
On the other hand, i work better in afternoon no matter what. 2-5 are my most productive hours. Maybe how you feel isn't how everyone feels. A better solution would be to allow employees to choose their half a day/ a day off.
On the other hand, i work better in afternoon no matter what. 2-5 are my most productive hours. Maybe how you feel isn't how everyone feels. A better solution would be to allow employees to choose their half a day/ a day off.
We used to have 9-6 working hours, but +- 2 each way, it was funny, almost everyone chose to come in early, and do 7 to 3, except the programmers who all decided to do 10 to 7 or 11 to 8,
It worked well though
It worked well though
Yeah, you will obviously need a day or some hours where there is an overlap. So for a 4 day work week, maybe you have 2 days where you have to work. But that will still be a much better and a flexible solution.
Yep. I’ll spend most of the morning waking up anyway. I can do it at work or I can do it at home, either way I’m not going to be very productive before afternoon.
I function by trying to work 7 days a week, without taking time off for vacation. What I've found is that I'm in general much happier having to wake up at a specific time every day with specific work goals.
I feel like I'm in a sweet equilibrium with fewer disruptions from going on and off vacation. I make more money, I'm happier at home and work, and I feel better all around.
I feel like I'm in a sweet equilibrium with fewer disruptions from going on and off vacation. I make more money, I'm happier at home and work, and I feel better all around.
Don't take this the wrong way, but do you have like doing other things apart from programming? I couldn't imagine going in to work 7 days a week for the entire year which would mean i won't be able to go ski, travel, play soccer league, go camping, hiking etc..
I'm not a programmer. My job has different hour requirements than a typical salaried position.. Sometimes I work 4 hours one day, sometimes 20+ hours. The variability is exciting, almost like a slot machine, some days I get lucky and have a lot of work all day which means more money to spend, other days the work isn't there and I go home by noon (which I consider also being lucky) to play with the kids, work on home projects, go shopping, hang out with wife, watch Netflix/YouTube.
I have gotten so much enjoyment from work and the income it generates that I have decided to put my major hobbies/travel on hold. Maybe if tax law changes in the future punish me for high productivity, then I might cut back and do more non job activities.
I would imagine it is hard for a programmer to maintain this schedule because the pay isn't on the same basis as mine (eat what you kill versus salary). However, certain other aspects of a 7 day workweek apply to being a programmer: if you get tired and don't want to continue working, you can just go home and work on it the next day. No Friday crunch time. No pre vacation crunch time. Every day is more relaxed because you just took two major deadlines off your schedule: Fridays and vacations.
I have gotten so much enjoyment from work and the income it generates that I have decided to put my major hobbies/travel on hold. Maybe if tax law changes in the future punish me for high productivity, then I might cut back and do more non job activities.
I would imagine it is hard for a programmer to maintain this schedule because the pay isn't on the same basis as mine (eat what you kill versus salary). However, certain other aspects of a 7 day workweek apply to being a programmer: if you get tired and don't want to continue working, you can just go home and work on it the next day. No Friday crunch time. No pre vacation crunch time. Every day is more relaxed because you just took two major deadlines off your schedule: Fridays and vacations.
Weirdly enough, I prefer the same (as a freelancer). 6 or 7 days a week with gently sloping down hours each day (long Monday, shorter Tuesday, even shorter Wednesday, etc) feels awesome. I get the hard work out of the way early in the week and arrive into the weekend relaxed, while still staying disciplined with my sleep schedule over the weekend (get up, do a couple hours of work, then go have fun).
Plus, vacations feel less necessary.
Plus, vacations feel less necessary.
I'm sorry what? To me, and probably most people, that sounds like workaholism. No vacation? How do you maintain your sanity? Don't you feel the need to disconnect every once in a while?
Don't you get the feeling on vacation that you dread coming back to work? Do you dread the time you're on vacation that you know you're losing on potential income (or not taking care of chores at home)?
I used to take 8+ weeks of vacation, and honestly those years dragged on and on, and my time on vacation was less and less enjoyable because of the dread of coming back to work and the lost income. Now? I'm happy, every single day. I find much more enjoyment every night when I'm home from work because I'm earning good money and I can cherish the respite from the daily work.
1-2 weeks off at a time is just too much time away from work. I think the desire to get away from work is there only because the 5 day on, 2 day off weekly grind is so jarring to the psyche that you absolutely need the extra week off to recover. I'm copacetic working 7/365.
I used to take 8+ weeks of vacation, and honestly those years dragged on and on, and my time on vacation was less and less enjoyable because of the dread of coming back to work and the lost income. Now? I'm happy, every single day. I find much more enjoyment every night when I'm home from work because I'm earning good money and I can cherish the respite from the daily work.
1-2 weeks off at a time is just too much time away from work. I think the desire to get away from work is there only because the 5 day on, 2 day off weekly grind is so jarring to the psyche that you absolutely need the extra week off to recover. I'm copacetic working 7/365.
That probably makes you quite an outlier.
The question I have is... Why am I an outlier? What if this could work at a corporate level where employees are happier because they can work more hours some days and fewer hours on other days?
Instead of 8 hour work days each week with 6 weeks of vacation, wouldn't it be nicer to work just 5 hours a day for 365? Or maybe a few days with 3 hour days and a few days with 8 hours? This seems so much more relaxing than crunching 8 hour days every work day.
Instead of 8 hour work days each week with 6 weeks of vacation, wouldn't it be nicer to work just 5 hours a day for 365? Or maybe a few days with 3 hour days and a few days with 8 hours? This seems so much more relaxing than crunching 8 hour days every work day.
If I'm hiring super creative or deep planning or design roles i want "bursty" people who can do super intense periods, more common lower intensity cycles and then recharge for a planned period of time.
If the workload dictates requirements I'd love to find anyone who wanted a constant queue of variable days but I've never met them aside from contractors who want a minimum and will bill extra, but they still seem term-based and want vacation.
At a managerial level i can plan around predictable days off, but not variable days when i need to coordinate more than a few people.
If the workload dictates requirements I'd love to find anyone who wanted a constant queue of variable days but I've never met them aside from contractors who want a minimum and will bill extra, but they still seem term-based and want vacation.
At a managerial level i can plan around predictable days off, but not variable days when i need to coordinate more than a few people.
When you factor in the commute many of us have, 7 days a week would be horrible. Of the many refliefs the weekend brings, one of them is not having to waste 1.5+ hours in a car.
cool anecdotal evidence. that doesn't necessarily mean we should completely dismiss the concept entirely.
Feeling a slump early afternoon after midday meal is not anecdotal evidence, it's biology.
edit: At least, it's a common issue that people have . A simple google search for "afternoon slump" reveals tons of related articles and suggestions to address it.
Besides, those who feel otherwise likely don't give sufficient context. Such as, likely that they work from home. Or that they run their business so they can work afternoons and like to get up at 11 AM everyday. The article is talking about "staff" at "companies".
edit: At least, it's a common issue that people have . A simple google search for "afternoon slump" reveals tons of related articles and suggestions to address it.
Besides, those who feel otherwise likely don't give sufficient context. Such as, likely that they work from home. Or that they run their business so they can work afternoons and like to get up at 11 AM everyday. The article is talking about "staff" at "companies".
Note for later, "evidence" for the afternoon slump:
> "The so-called “window of circadian low” — the hours when the body is least adapted for wakefulness — typically occurs between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m. There’s another, smaller dip 12 hours later, in the midafternoon."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/well/mind/work-schedule-h...
> "The so-called “window of circadian low” — the hours when the body is least adapted for wakefulness — typically occurs between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m. There’s another, smaller dip 12 hours later, in the midafternoon."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/24/well/mind/work-schedule-h...
I don't think this would help a ton in tech. The people that get burned out the hardest can't stop thinking about work if they're on the clock or not. They'll just have another day to stress about not getting stuff done or how much more they'll have to do when they get back.
Less work would not solve the problem for me. I enjoy solving problems and creating tools. I like it so much I do it outside of work and possibly inside when I have nothing else to do.
What I find stressful is stupid people. This really burns me out. I can understand a lack of experience and mistakes in code. We are always learning and in need of mentorship.
What I can’t stand are cowardly people who aren’t learning. These are people who refuse to write original code to save their lives, or their careers. It seems common to avoid code by hoping some Maven or NPM package will easily do your job for you. These are the people who need multiple frameworks and 10mb of dependency code for what could be accomplished in about 12 lines of original code. It’s a hatred of craftsmanship. These people make me hate coding and life in general.
What I find stressful is stupid people. This really burns me out. I can understand a lack of experience and mistakes in code. We are always learning and in need of mentorship.
What I can’t stand are cowardly people who aren’t learning. These are people who refuse to write original code to save their lives, or their careers. It seems common to avoid code by hoping some Maven or NPM package will easily do your job for you. These are the people who need multiple frameworks and 10mb of dependency code for what could be accomplished in about 12 lines of original code. It’s a hatred of craftsmanship. These people make me hate coding and life in general.
This is going in the right direction :)
Funnily enough, decades ago when France introduced the 35h workweek the world (and in particular the US and UK) ridiculed France for it and berated the (supposed) laziness of French people.
Funnily enough, decades ago when France introduced the 35h workweek the world (and in particular the US and UK) ridiculed France for it and berated the (supposed) laziness of French people.
Brit by birth, and I've never visited France, so take this with a grain of salt, but:
I've worked with many Japanese, German and British engineers who have worked with French engineers (in France, often as "ex pats"), and these guys never complained about France's 35 hour work week. They did, however, complain about the (this is my summary, from memory) excessive smoking breaks, longer lunches, casual attitude towards work, and (yes, sorry for the stereotype) a good amount of lost time talking about women in the office they'd like to bang.
I don't know. The 2 French engineers I've worked with have been fine, but that was on U.K. soil... maybe on the home field it's different?
My wife, who's American but both parents are French, says that the French generally have an inferiority complex but over-compensate by shit-talking other European countries and the U.S. I don't think I've experienced this personally, although I'm in tech and she's not, so maybe in her world that is more common (or maybe she's wrong? dunno)
I've worked with many Japanese, German and British engineers who have worked with French engineers (in France, often as "ex pats"), and these guys never complained about France's 35 hour work week. They did, however, complain about the (this is my summary, from memory) excessive smoking breaks, longer lunches, casual attitude towards work, and (yes, sorry for the stereotype) a good amount of lost time talking about women in the office they'd like to bang.
I don't know. The 2 French engineers I've worked with have been fine, but that was on U.K. soil... maybe on the home field it's different?
My wife, who's American but both parents are French, says that the French generally have an inferiority complex but over-compensate by shit-talking other European countries and the U.S. I don't think I've experienced this personally, although I'm in tech and she's not, so maybe in her world that is more common (or maybe she's wrong? dunno)
As long as you're productive and meeting deadlines, I couldn't care less about the "hours" you're in the office.
Also, the market well balance itself. If someone is more productive they'll be rewarded more.
I just don't want the "equal outcome" crowd to start enforcing equal pay when most of them are clocking in minimum hours and others are over-delivering.
This is for merit based companies, which personally I can't fathom non-merit based ones.
Also, the market well balance itself. If someone is more productive they'll be rewarded more.
I just don't want the "equal outcome" crowd to start enforcing equal pay when most of them are clocking in minimum hours and others are over-delivering.
This is for merit based companies, which personally I can't fathom non-merit based ones.
"Also, the market well balance itself. If someone is more productive they'll be rewarded more."
I don't think that's true at all. If you don't spend significant amounts of time on self promotion you will not get rewarded but taken for granted.
I don't think that's true at all. If you don't spend significant amounts of time on self promotion you will not get rewarded but taken for granted.
In one of my early jobs out of college I had a manager who really got this. He knew I was getting my work done, so our 1:1's turned more into career coaching, and his focus was almost always around improving my "visibility" within the org. Looking back, it's hard to say whether he was genuinely interested in helping me get promoted, or if he just wanted to improve his own visibility by proxy, but either way it worked, and the lesson stuck with me.
That's how good managers should be measured though, by the success of their charges
Last I checked, reality doesn't operate based on merit at all. If it did, wages would rise with productivity, but they don't, at least not in the US.
That’s not sufficient. If your deadlines de facto force people to do 12 hour days, I couldn’t care less what you think about office hours.
Meeting deadlines is not function of work productivity and speed. It is purely function of planning and estimation and other management out of control of worker.
Yes, there are slow or lazy workers. Point still stands.
Yes, there are slow or lazy workers. Point still stands.
Meritocracies are better, but even there they generally still manage to some degree by the ass-in-seats proxy.
You can also work to eliminate politics to force a market-based outcome, but it's probably less work to get better at the political game.
You can also work to eliminate politics to force a market-based outcome, but it's probably less work to get better at the political game.
And it's a tremendous hiring and retention perk, at least as long as it's not standard practice. "Work for us, and you get three day weekends every week!" And that turns into "So, recruiter, does this new gig you're trying to hire me for offer a four day workweek? No? Well okay then, bye."