Ask HN: How do you politely decline a project?
16 comments
Another angle would be to go to the meeting to discuss scope, under the condition that he pays for your time at your stated rate. This drives home the point that your fees are non-negotiable, while still listening to what he has to say.
I deal daily with program managers who specialize in getting you to the table with a legitimate request, then pull you into a weakened position after you said an initial "yes".
"Discuss requirements" - who could oppose to that? He can easily make the point that the main reason for the large cost is that he had a much smaller scope in head. He might not understand that the project is larger than he thinks due to dependencies. At worst, he might not care.
Listen to what he has to say, take a cool-off period, double-check yourself to see whether you're being pulled in something that might turn sour, and provide a revised quote.
I deal daily with program managers who specialize in getting you to the table with a legitimate request, then pull you into a weakened position after you said an initial "yes".
"Discuss requirements" - who could oppose to that? He can easily make the point that the main reason for the large cost is that he had a much smaller scope in head. He might not understand that the project is larger than he thinks due to dependencies. At worst, he might not care.
Listen to what he has to say, take a cool-off period, double-check yourself to see whether you're being pulled in something that might turn sour, and provide a revised quote.
The graceful way to decline is to promptly send a written proposal reflecting the quoted rate. Personally, I would include a healthy retainer to be applied against final invoice and call it a day.
Most of the time, these things are fishing expeditions. They are either willing to pay and just trying to get the upper hand, or they are going to shop your price around and go with the lowest bidder. Either way, putting your proposal in writing means that they will be the one's who decline, not you.
"Non-profit" does not mean charity, and a professional organization's members typically don't provide discounts to hackers. Once you discounted your rates you put the value of your time on par with the person who accepted "a nominal fee" for the previous work.
Most of the time, these things are fishing expeditions. They are either willing to pay and just trying to get the upper hand, or they are going to shop your price around and go with the lowest bidder. Either way, putting your proposal in writing means that they will be the one's who decline, not you.
"Non-profit" does not mean charity, and a professional organization's members typically don't provide discounts to hackers. Once you discounted your rates you put the value of your time on par with the person who accepted "a nominal fee" for the previous work.
There's a lot of truth to what you're saying and I appreciate the feedback. I do, however, believe in providing discounts to non-profits, educational institutions, and charities, and while that may mean that I'm a bit of a sucker, I can live with myself because I like to see those places succeed.
The entity we're talking about here is a true non-profit organization, and the problem we're running into is that they want to know how much it's going to cost, and I can't tell them because frankly, I charge by the hour and I don't know what kinds of bugs are going to show up when I fix the ones we know about.
So that makes it a little harder to write up the SoW. But that's a whole other topic. :)
The entity we're talking about here is a true non-profit organization, and the problem we're running into is that they want to know how much it's going to cost, and I can't tell them because frankly, I charge by the hour and I don't know what kinds of bugs are going to show up when I fix the ones we know about.
So that makes it a little harder to write up the SoW. But that's a whole other topic. :)
Making one's services affordable isn't being a sucker in my book...I've done work pro bono at times. The issue I see is that they are not valuing your time - meeting to negotiate your rate is disrespectful of your time. If they have a budget, then they should tell you what it is so you're not playing twenty questions. If they don't have a budget to share with you, then again they are being disrespectful of your time.
After a bit of sleep, I would recommend offering migration to a compatible sever as the only option and provide an hourly-not-to-exceed proposal with a healthy retainer. The retainer should be the minimum due under the contract (in other words, it's a flat rate if you wrap the project up in a few hours). Hourly-not-to-exceed work is helpful because it provides meaningful feedback on one's estimating skills.
Rewriting the application will almost inevitably entail feature creep (which may be an actual goal). Providing an initial proposal which migrates to a new server allows you to negotiate if a rewrite and new features are really what they really want.
After a bit of sleep, I would recommend offering migration to a compatible sever as the only option and provide an hourly-not-to-exceed proposal with a healthy retainer. The retainer should be the minimum due under the contract (in other words, it's a flat rate if you wrap the project up in a few hours). Hourly-not-to-exceed work is helpful because it provides meaningful feedback on one's estimating skills.
Rewriting the application will almost inevitably entail feature creep (which may be an actual goal). Providing an initial proposal which migrates to a new server allows you to negotiate if a rewrite and new features are really what they really want.
If you are not comfortable just saying "not interested" (which gets much easier after the first time), say that you have picked up another long term project, which requires your full attention. If they keep insisting and saying it would only take 5 minutes of your time, counter with "I don't want to get involved in something that I cannot dedicate enough attention to". If they keep further insisting, then they are either dumb and not getting the hints or they want to take advantage of you. In either case the next thing to say - "not interested, bye".
Don't fret, just say how it is. Start politely and escalate as needed.
Don't fret, just say how it is. Start politely and escalate as needed.
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Stick to your guns and refuse to re-negotiate your rates. That's not being arrogant (regardless of whether it's a non-profit, or a Fortune 500 company you're doing the work for). Your rates are your rates, and if they trot out the "Johnny the neighbor's kid who'll do it for $50" line, you're better off without them as a client. I'd say they're being arrogant for trying to "discuss" the cost.
"I'm sorry, but these are the rates I offer to non-profit agencies. Please understand that these rates are already much lower than my standard rates and as such, are non-negotiable. If you decide to pursue either of the two solutions we have discussed, contact me and I will be glad to help you at the rate I have given you.
I wish you nothing but the best in the future.
Regards, Name"
Something like that? Honest, polite, but to-the-point.
I wish you nothing but the best in the future.
Regards, Name"
Something like that? Honest, polite, but to-the-point.
I believe that this method offers another benefit:
That the organization is a nonprofit does not require their team to be pleasant employers. Responding in such a manner as described by atgm allows you to judge their character a bit better. You're being respectful of their needs, but firm in your own. If you get an angry, abusive response, then you know that you made an excellent choice in not choosing to work for them. If you get a polite, understanding response, then perhaps you can bend your rates slightly, as they may be a better customer than you initially believed.
That the organization is a nonprofit does not require their team to be pleasant employers. Responding in such a manner as described by atgm allows you to judge their character a bit better. You're being respectful of their needs, but firm in your own. If you get an angry, abusive response, then you know that you made an excellent choice in not choosing to work for them. If you get a polite, understanding response, then perhaps you can bend your rates slightly, as they may be a better customer than you initially believed.
You don't have to negotiate fees - if you reducing the requirements by the appropriate cost, you aren't haggling over the rate. And while I know the kind of customer you mean, a price sensitive customer isn't necessarily one who won't pay on time. I have a non-profit customer who is very price sensitive, but is one of my most reliable in terms of on-time payment.
If you are set on turning down the work, you can say that you have a minimum project size for first time customers. This isn't uncommon - a lot of people aren't interested in taking on tiny projects from new customers. You have a certain target client/project you are interested in, and changing the requirements won't fit that anymore.
Or you can tell them that quality is very important to you, and you don't recommend that they try to complete the project by cutting some of the requirements. You couldn't in good conscience work on that type of project, and if that is the direction they are going, you will not be a good resource for them. That's not impolite - that's true.
If you are set on turning down the work, you can say that you have a minimum project size for first time customers. This isn't uncommon - a lot of people aren't interested in taking on tiny projects from new customers. You have a certain target client/project you are interested in, and changing the requirements won't fit that anymore.
Or you can tell them that quality is very important to you, and you don't recommend that they try to complete the project by cutting some of the requirements. You couldn't in good conscience work on that type of project, and if that is the direction they are going, you will not be a good resource for them. That's not impolite - that's true.
I used to feel like an arrogant jerk when I said no to work, especially if there's a family connection or non-profit involved. At the same time I've admired others who have been able to say no to the same sort of things, wishing I could do the same.
One of my favourite books "Boundaries" helped me learn that it's actually good to be able to say no to some things. I used to feel that if I didn't say yes to everything, that made me a bad person. I would later beat up on myself because when I said yes to too many things, I became burned out and resentful. I highly recommend a copy of that book or something similar (Boundaries is from a Christian perspective, which may turn some people off).
I recently said no to some computer work for a friend of my parents. I think my dad assumed I would do it for him, and stated that I needed to go over and help him. I said "I'm sorry but I don't do consulting work anymore. I only help immediate family with computer related issues". No explanation or rationalization, just a polite but firm statement about what I am willing to do and what I'm not willing to do. I think my dad was a bit miffed (probably because he told his friend he would send his son over to help, saving him some money) but I'd rather have my dad respect me and the boundaries I've set than to try and make him like me all the time.
Do I feel like a jerk anymore? No, not really. I work long hours, have a wife and two children to support, and have projects outside of work that require a commitment. Saying yes to other things takes away from my wife and children, and it depletes me from being able to do my best.
Learning to say no is a skill that you can build. It's not about the phrasing or clever wording, it's learning to demarcate what you are willing and what you are not willing to do. It's also very liberating knowing that you don't have to be overcommitted and stressed out. You have a choice.
One of my favourite books "Boundaries" helped me learn that it's actually good to be able to say no to some things. I used to feel that if I didn't say yes to everything, that made me a bad person. I would later beat up on myself because when I said yes to too many things, I became burned out and resentful. I highly recommend a copy of that book or something similar (Boundaries is from a Christian perspective, which may turn some people off).
I recently said no to some computer work for a friend of my parents. I think my dad assumed I would do it for him, and stated that I needed to go over and help him. I said "I'm sorry but I don't do consulting work anymore. I only help immediate family with computer related issues". No explanation or rationalization, just a polite but firm statement about what I am willing to do and what I'm not willing to do. I think my dad was a bit miffed (probably because he told his friend he would send his son over to help, saving him some money) but I'd rather have my dad respect me and the boundaries I've set than to try and make him like me all the time.
Do I feel like a jerk anymore? No, not really. I work long hours, have a wife and two children to support, and have projects outside of work that require a commitment. Saying yes to other things takes away from my wife and children, and it depletes me from being able to do my best.
Learning to say no is a skill that you can build. It's not about the phrasing or clever wording, it's learning to demarcate what you are willing and what you are not willing to do. It's also very liberating knowing that you don't have to be overcommitted and stressed out. You have a choice.
negotiate scope, not rates. its likely that they're in the mess they're in because they went bargain hunting.
Write a nice letter thanking them for the opportunity and refer them to someone else. Don't offer an excuse, just say you've decided to pass on the project.
No is a powerful tool use it often.
My suggestion is, in the future, always ask for more than you think you can get up front. That way if they want to negotiate you can knock a little off and not worry about it. You might want to read a book on negotiations. I suggest "Secrets of power negotiators.
One very humble approach might be to say... "I am not a good negotiator and i have already give you my bottom line price."
In regards to not coming off like an arrogant jerk... you can't control how people perceive you. If they are saying things and you feel like an arrogant jerk, you're probably being manipulated and might be interested in reading a book about assertiveness like "When I say no, I feel guilty"... which says when people in business relationships criticize you, you should obliquely agree and reassert what you want... "I see how I might be coming off like an arrogant jerk, but I'm still not interested in lowering my rate."
One very humble approach might be to say... "I am not a good negotiator and i have already give you my bottom line price."
In regards to not coming off like an arrogant jerk... you can't control how people perceive you. If they are saying things and you feel like an arrogant jerk, you're probably being manipulated and might be interested in reading a book about assertiveness like "When I say no, I feel guilty"... which says when people in business relationships criticize you, you should obliquely agree and reassert what you want... "I see how I might be coming off like an arrogant jerk, but I'm still not interested in lowering my rate."
These are great suggestions. I've read the first title you suggested, but the second intrigues me. In this situation we're just a little beyond both of these. I'm just interested in the advice of the community and how others handle these situations.
I provided a few options, including leaving things as-is but moving to a different host with versions of the libraries that work with the app, or simply paying my non-profit client hourly rate to fix the problems.
They said my estimate was too high, and now they want to meet to discuss the requirements and cost. I'm not really interested in negotiating my rate on this project because I don't need the work, I'm already charging a lower rate because they are a true nonprofit, and whenever haggling over rates comes up this early, I know that collecting my fee is going to be difficult no matter what I charge.
But I'm also not interested in coming off like an arrogant jerk. So, any advice? Interested to hear how you politely walk away from deals.
[edited for formatting]