Bison rangers wanted to oversee U.K. herd(cbc.ca)
cbc.ca
Bison rangers wanted to oversee U.K. herd
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.5871385/bison-rangers-wanted-to-oversee-u-k-herd-no-bison-experience-necessary-1.5871386
71 comments
Electric fences only encourage containment with our cows (Highlands). One of our bulls steps between the wires and lets the fence shock him on the back for minutes on end with him only moving slightly to reposition the shock. I think he is doing his own TENS treatment for a sore back. I really need to record him doing that one day.
There is footage out there somewhere (1980s) of a cop using a tazer on a bull that got away from a rodeo. The bull just looks quietly at him as if to say "Um, you talkin to me?". Then a cowboy, on a horse, lassoes the bull and walks it back into the stadium.
You might be interested in this story of Henry Harpending going on a buffalo hunt in south Africa: https://web.archive.org/web/20170105231156/http://the10000ye...
It's very funny throughout, but here's the buffalo being repeatedly shot with a rifle:
> I aimed and fired. “Bang-whump”, the bang from the rifle and the whump as the bullet struck the buffalo. He jerked a little, then simply stood there staring at me. “Bang-whump, bang-whump” as I fired two more rounds.
> Now he tossed his head and snorted, then started running toward us. Buffalo charge with their nose high, only lowering their head to use their horns on contact. I fired one more round at the charging animal, head on, simply pointing at him because he was so close, then turned and ran. We discovered later that the bullet had struck his shoulder, ricocheted off his scapula, and exited through the skin on his side. It certainly didn’t slow him down at all: I might as well have been shooting at a railroad locomotive.
It's very funny throughout, but here's the buffalo being repeatedly shot with a rifle:
> I aimed and fired. “Bang-whump”, the bang from the rifle and the whump as the bullet struck the buffalo. He jerked a little, then simply stood there staring at me. “Bang-whump, bang-whump” as I fired two more rounds.
> Now he tossed his head and snorted, then started running toward us. Buffalo charge with their nose high, only lowering their head to use their horns on contact. I fired one more round at the charging animal, head on, simply pointing at him because he was so close, then turned and ran. We discovered later that the bullet had struck his shoulder, ricocheted off his scapula, and exited through the skin on his side. It certainly didn’t slow him down at all: I might as well have been shooting at a railroad locomotive.
My brother-in-law lives on the coast and had some property on an inlet. An alligator started hanging around and was getting too close to the children. He consulted with one of the local game wardens who told him "If there are kids threatened, go ahead and shoot it" (this was outside of hunting season)
So the following weekend he was in an aluminum jon-boat with an AK-47 waiting for it to surface (I swear he's not a redneck). When it did, he fired a round, hitting it in the skull. But that didn't kill it, so he emptied the magazine into it and that did it in.
He found the skull at low tide several months later after the crabs had picked it clean. The AK round had ricocheted off the bone, leaving a divot behind. They're tough creatures.
So the following weekend he was in an aluminum jon-boat with an AK-47 waiting for it to surface (I swear he's not a redneck). When it did, he fired a round, hitting it in the skull. But that didn't kill it, so he emptied the magazine into it and that did it in.
He found the skull at low tide several months later after the crabs had picked it clean. The AK round had ricocheted off the bone, leaving a divot behind. They're tough creatures.
Bovine hide is a lot thicker than human skin. The probes probably didn't penetrate.
In South Asia, bull herders often have nails at the end of their herding poles. I asked my grandfather if it hurts the bull, and he said, "of course not, they have thick skin".
While the skin is undoubtedly thicker, the "of course not" may also be based on a misconception and/or generalization. The same kind of misconception alive today even in doctors when it comes to the skin and pain tolerance of black people, for example.
Not sure if this got downvoted to hell because I mentioned the well documented and studied misconception many medical students and doctors have wrongly believing black people have thicker skin and higher pain tolerance [0], or for challenging the "thoroughly" studied statement that "of course poking bulls with nails doesn't hurt them" [1]. If causing discomfort is not the purpose of a herding tool it makes you wonder why they don't use softer implements...
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/raci...
[1]
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/raci...
[1]
I asked my dad (a practicing large animal vet at one point) if there was an equivalent to petting dogs... for cows.
He thought about it for a minute and said, "Well, I knew a farmer once who scratched their backs with a garden rake. They seemed to like it."
That put cow hide in context in a way other things didn't.
He thought about it for a minute and said, "Well, I knew a farmer once who scratched their backs with a garden rake. They seemed to like it."
That put cow hide in context in a way other things didn't.
There are cow back scratchers, it’s a thing. They will rub up against trees too.
My dog use to roll her back on top of a tennis ball. Smart dog.
My dog use to roll her back on top of a tennis ball. Smart dog.
There are electric rotary cow brushes, that auto-start on touch by the cow. They swing around on an arm so the cow can control where it is being scratched.
Very common in e.g. Sweden as far as I know. See for instance products by DeLaval [1].
[1] https://www.delaval.com/en-us/our-solutions/cow-comfort/cow-...
Very common in e.g. Sweden as far as I know. See for instance products by DeLaval [1].
[1] https://www.delaval.com/en-us/our-solutions/cow-comfort/cow-...
There's a reason corrals for bison aren't fenced with normal metal posts or even wooden posts - but sections of telephone pole or even cement pylons.
But experience will come quickly. Just one time watching two males rough-housing and "Oh. I understand."
But experience will come quickly. Just one time watching two males rough-housing and "Oh. I understand."
We had a mild spook get into a herd coming down our path while fly fishing in Yellowstone. Cue ~20 bison thundering down a trail.
I was on the other side of a boulder the size of an Escalade, and still didn't feel entirely safe.
Some tourists do dumb things around them, but if you actually look it's very apparent they're both large and heavy.
I was on the other side of a boulder the size of an Escalade, and still didn't feel entirely safe.
Some tourists do dumb things around them, but if you actually look it's very apparent they're both large and heavy.
>sections of telephone pole or even cement pylons.
image of bulls hitting the pole reminded from the childhood back then - the corner of our multi-apartment house frontyard near the turn of the road leading to the tank range had a large cement pylon - as the tanks driving in column raise clouds of dust and so the tanks inside the column don't see much and sometimes would miss the turn hitting the pylon as a result instead of our house.
image of bulls hitting the pole reminded from the childhood back then - the corner of our multi-apartment house frontyard near the turn of the road leading to the tank range had a large cement pylon - as the tanks driving in column raise clouds of dust and so the tanks inside the column don't see much and sometimes would miss the turn hitting the pylon as a result instead of our house.
I live near wild bison. "The Feds" have a facility for storing the ones that wander out of the park. I can confirm that it looks like Guantanamo Bay. Otoh there are also farmed bison around here that seem to be contained by regular fencing. Possibly the gitmo security is to prevent humans getting in.
One thing that is different is that the ones on a ranch are trained since birth to know where their food is, they train them to come to bells and alarms and such.
The truly wild ones will have no such habits or inclinations and will take awhile to get them trained so to speak.
The truly wild ones will have no such habits or inclinations and will take awhile to get them trained so to speak.
There's also a size difference. The domesticated bison are generally smaller. I believe they are cross bred with cow species to some extent. Ted Turner's bison are the large kind though, but very well coiffed.
Muldoon: "She had them all attacking the fences when the feeders came."
Ellie: "But, the fences are electrified, though, right?"
Muldoon: "That's right, but they never attack the same place twice. They were testing the fences for weaknesses, systematically. They remember."
Ellie: "But, the fences are electrified, though, right?"
Muldoon: "That's right, but they never attack the same place twice. They were testing the fences for weaknesses, systematically. They remember."
It sounds similar to the teething problems faced by an Irish dairy farmer who started producing Italian-style buffalo mozzarella with an imported herd:
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/buf...
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/buf...
Standard electric fences are also not enough to keep horses in if they see a reason to get out. They often jump or demolish fences.
https://www.zarebasystems.com/learning-center/animal-selecto...
Says it works if they have adequate food and water, but confirms nothing works sans that.
Says it works if they have adequate food and water, but confirms nothing works sans that.
I like the dry factual "Almost no barrier can stop a hungry bison."
Ocean? That would do it. Great Lake? Probably not.
My immediate thought was the Hesco barriers the US army uses. Supposedly, they can hold against a big truck ramming them.
I've seen bison up close in an enclosure in an animal sanctuary. It was pretty obvious that there was nothing actually keeping them in there apart from their own apathy.
Bison go where bison want. If they want to stay where you've put them, then you're in luck.
Bison go where bison want. If they want to stay where you've put them, then you're in luck.
They have a herd at the Yukon Wildlife Sanctuary, they're kept in by a steel re-enforced fence. As long as you keep them fed, they have no interest in wandering away.
Source on them being "smarter"? Many people think cows are dumb but they absolutely aren't.
A buffalo is still basically a wild animal with all the survival instincts of a wild animal. A cow has been domesticated for agriculture. I get the feeling that's what people base the intelligence of the animal on.
If I remember correctly cows don't exactly dig under snow for food where a buffalo will. Might matter what breed the cow is though.
If I remember correctly cows don't exactly dig under snow for food where a buffalo will. Might matter what breed the cow is though.
> smarter
How do you figure that? Back in the 1800s bison hunters could clean out a whole herd, solo, because the bison would stand still as their fellow bison were being shot to death and dropping like flies around them
Edit: not sure why downvoted (continued Redditification of this site I suppose) but dairy cattle for instance will scatter when being predated
How do you figure that? Back in the 1800s bison hunters could clean out a whole herd, solo, because the bison would stand still as their fellow bison were being shot to death and dropping like flies around them
Edit: not sure why downvoted (continued Redditification of this site I suppose) but dairy cattle for instance will scatter when being predated
Because what you describe has nothing to do with intelligence. Whales are intelligent but respond to attack in much the same way as buffalo, a behavior that whalers use to more easily harvest them. Go back in time and start shooting at a Roman legion. They will form close defensive formations. Romans were not unintelligent.
Firstly, your hypothetical legion is actually reacting in a way to prevent death. Secondly, if we were to continue killing the legionnaires without them having any success against us they will either retreat or break.
I'm not certain of the sources of cows, bison, and whales reactions to their herd being killed; but taking the reactions as stated would certainly give pause for thought on gence.
Markers of intelligence include awareness of the self, awareness of others in relation to the self, awareness of death. To not react to the murder of another member of your herd either requires a lack of fear of death, or a lack of one or more of tgose aforementioned markers of intelligence.
I'm not certain of the sources of cows, bison, and whales reactions to their herd being killed; but taking the reactions as stated would certainly give pause for thought on gence.
Markers of intelligence include awareness of the self, awareness of others in relation to the self, awareness of death. To not react to the murder of another member of your herd either requires a lack of fear of death, or a lack of one or more of tgose aforementioned markers of intelligence.
I think it just means they don't have an instinct for how to react to ranged threats. Cows likely don't either, but their instincts are different and just so happen to work slightly better against guns.
By the way, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html:
> Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.
> Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.
I'm well aware of that guideline, and I flout it specifically because it has only made the problem worse.
I get turned into a pincushion every time for my trouble but it's worth it.
I get turned into a pincushion every time for my trouble but it's worth it.
On way HN and Reddit are alike- complaining about downvotes inevitably just brings on more downvotes!
On a related note, Steven Rinella's book "American Buffalo: In Search of a Lost Icon" is mandatory reading for anyone interested in the history of these magnificent beasts.
While we're at it, The Meat Eater podcast (no affiliation) is a fantastic resource for all things nature, ecology, natural history. IOW it's not dedicated exclusively to hunting, guns, cooking wild game meat (~50%).
~50% of the content is a undergrad-level education on nature: conservation, cultural & natural history of Earth (principally North America).
A few favourites:
* https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-197-eating-...
* https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landsca...
List of Popular Meat Eater Podcasts: https://www.owltail.com/podcast/36913-meateater-podcast/best...
~50% of the content is a undergrad-level education on nature: conservation, cultural & natural history of Earth (principally North America).
A few favourites:
* https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-197-eating-...
* https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-162-landsca...
List of Popular Meat Eater Podcasts: https://www.owltail.com/podcast/36913-meateater-podcast/best...
A few seasons of the Meat Eater show are on Netflix as well. I have been very impressed with the production quality - filming a hunt in extreme terrain and weather conditions has to be such a challenge, but every show is fantastic.
I'm on page 104 right now and I cannot put it down. Highly recommended to everyone, but especially those who are into the natural history of North America. My wife is probably so tired of me talking about random bison facts, but its her own fault for getting it for me for Christmas...
His book ‘Scavenger’s Guide to Haute Cuisine’ is great as well. I always feel it is his most underrated work.
>> European bison, like this one, will be introduced to roam in the wild in the Blean woods near Canterbury, England, next spring.
OK this is where I live. I sometimes take walks in the Blean woods. Should I worry about an accidental encounter?
OK this is where I live. I sometimes take walks in the Blean woods. Should I worry about an accidental encounter?
>> Should I worry about an accidental encounter?
Don't worry. The electric fence will keep you out of their territory.
Don't worry. The electric fence will keep you out of their territory.
Look up "Yellowstone Bison" encounters. Bison are NOT domesticated cows.
Domesticated cows are pretty dangerous. If they get the idea that they need to hurt you, they hurt you. A friend of mine was nearly killed by a cow a few years ago - as luck would have it the cow tried to crush him into some boggy ground so he wasn't all that crushed. If it had been solid ground he'd have been as dead as nails.
Walkers in the UK get injured by cows more regularly than one might expect, a particular issue is that dog-walkers try to protect their dogs and get trampled: advice is to let the dog go as they can usually escape.
There are European bison in the wild in, of all places (I wouldn’t expect them in such a densely populated country), the Netherlands (https://www.wisenten.nl/en/netherlands)
https://www.wisenten.nl/en/yourself gives guidelines for visitors.
https://www.wisenten.nl/en/yourself gives guidelines for visitors.
They have only recently (2007) been reintroduced there by importing them from the Poland - Blean Woods have used that as a model for their own import.
What could go wrong? Will it be followed by releasing apex predators to keep their numbers under control?
Yes. Humans.
Well, yeah. Treat them as any other dangerous wild animal you encounter. Plus, a bison will stomp a small car with minimal effort.
They generally won't attack unless you move.
Some bison will attack unpredictably. Antelope Island in Utah seems to have some aggressive individual bison. Two experienced trail runners were attacked and a third killed in the space of about a year.
> They'll be kept in by an electric fence, according to Smith.
Not unless you're a ghost.
Not unless you're a ghost.
I grew up across the road from the National Bison Range in Montana.
This kind of thing can work well if you give them enough area and manage their migration properly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bison_Range
This kind of thing can work well if you give them enough area and manage their migration properly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bison_Range
Pablo and then Ronan for me. Dad (Claar) was the lead wildlife biologist for Salish & Kootenai in the 80s and 90s. Good to see a few of us here. Believe it or not we are in Georgia now and there are Bison ranches down in south Georgia...pretty sizable ranches and they do well here too. Which side Mission or Dixon side?
Ha! We’re over represented on HN then.
I was on highway 200, between Ravalli and Dixon.
Sounds like your dad did some great work. My folks live in Mission now, and I love taking them to Ninepipe when I’m in town.
Home is in Northern California at the moment.
Cheers!
I was on highway 200, between Ravalli and Dixon.
Sounds like your dad did some great work. My folks live in Mission now, and I love taking them to Ninepipe when I’m in town.
Home is in Northern California at the moment.
Cheers!
What's the difference between a Bison and a Buffalo.
You can't wash your hands in a Buffalo.
Brummie joke.
Taxi!
You can't wash your hands in a Buffalo.
Brummie joke.
Taxi!
Excellent, thanks for the chuckle.
…
Crazy. I’ve been around enough bison (at Yellowstone National Park and other nearby locations) to know that you probably want at least some exposure/experience with bison. They’re larger than moose, aggressive, and they range quite a bit.
Crazy. I’ve been around enough bison (at Yellowstone National Park and other nearby locations) to know that you probably want at least some exposure/experience with bison. They’re larger than moose, aggressive, and they range quite a bit.
I was thinking that European bison were smaller than North American bison, but according to Wikipedia, not really. European bison have less variability in weight (800-1000kg) but American bison can be heavier depending on the individual (400-1275kg). I wouldn't want to be trampled by either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison
On an unrelated note, the older I get, the more it amazes me that there are so many ways to make a living in the world.
Every day I discover a little part of the economy where people are not doing something bog standard and yet can make ends meet, have job security and have enough fun with their jobs that they can seemingly do them forever.
On the other hand, there are so many more jobs where people are barely making ends meet and living paycheck to paycheck, so maybe it's more important to focus on that.
Every day I discover a little part of the economy where people are not doing something bog standard and yet can make ends meet, have job security and have enough fun with their jobs that they can seemingly do them forever.
On the other hand, there are so many more jobs where people are barely making ends meet and living paycheck to paycheck, so maybe it's more important to focus on that.
Similar projects had been tried several times in Spain since decades, with none or low success at long term. Animals dying poisoned or being stolen was not uncommon after farmers protesting. The animals need also a lot of supplementary food and space to thrive and of course CAN'T be left wild and roaming at their own will, specially close to roads. Hunters and farmers lobbies will always are problematic for their survival
This is amazing. I did not realize there were any European bison left at all for thousands of years, where were they hiding them?
Poland
Specifically in Białowieża Forest[1], which straddles the border with Belarus.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Białowieża_Forest
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Białowieża_Forest
In one of Gerald Weinberg's books, maybe The Secrets of Consulting, he quotes a Nebraska neighbor only "the buffalo bridle": you can make a buffalo go anywhere it wants to go, and you can keep a buffalo out of anywhere it doesn't.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
There shall be only one! Me!
No, they will be encouraged to remain in the area by the fence. These aren't cows. They are taller, hairier, smarter, and will presumably be keeping their horns. If push comes to shove bison can, literally, walk strait through standard electric fences.