New HIV vaccine with a 97% antibody response rate in phase I human trials(europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com)
europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com
New HIV vaccine with a 97% antibody response rate in phase I human trials
https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com/news/141892/novel-hiv-vaccine-approach-shows-promise-in-landmark-first-in-human-trial/
280 comments
Also from the Lancet link:
* VRC01 was shown around a decade ago to be one of several antibodies generated...that achieves broad neutralisation of several HIV strains
* 97% of participants who received an HIV vaccine immunogen candidate developed VRC01-class IgG B cells, precursors to broadly neutralising VRC01-class antibodies
* Results from another set of studies presented at HIVR4P (the Antibody Mediated Prevention [AMP] trials) showed that although intravenous administration of the VRC01 antibody at 8-week intervals did prevent infections with some strains of HIV, only 30% of the strains circulating in the trial regions of sub-Saharan Africa, South America, Switzerland, and the USA were sensitive to VRC01
To me this appears to be a great breakthrough but doesn't seem like a silver bullet.
* VRC01 was shown around a decade ago to be one of several antibodies generated...that achieves broad neutralisation of several HIV strains
* 97% of participants who received an HIV vaccine immunogen candidate developed VRC01-class IgG B cells, precursors to broadly neutralising VRC01-class antibodies
* Results from another set of studies presented at HIVR4P (the Antibody Mediated Prevention [AMP] trials) showed that although intravenous administration of the VRC01 antibody at 8-week intervals did prevent infections with some strains of HIV, only 30% of the strains circulating in the trial regions of sub-Saharan Africa, South America, Switzerland, and the USA were sensitive to VRC01
To me this appears to be a great breakthrough but doesn't seem like a silver bullet.
I found that explainer at the bottom very helpful, thank you. (and I'm not even a part of the ML crowd!)
Interested to hear from people in the know: how good does this look?
Interested to hear the same.
In particular, how easy will distribution be, considering that HIV is extremely easily preventable but it still spreads, because of lack of distribution of knowledge, I assume.
In particular, how easy will distribution be, considering that HIV is extremely easily preventable but it still spreads, because of lack of distribution of knowledge, I assume.
> In particular, how easy will distribution be, considering that HIV is extremely easily preventable but it still spreads, because of lack of distribution of knowledge, I assume.
This is a huge problem in the US. Truvada must be taken everyday to prevent HIV, and in 2015, it cost $1400 for a 30 day supply. In 2021, it costs between $1900 and $2500+ for a 30 day supply in the US.
Elsewhere in the world, Truvada might cost $40. In Australia, Truvada costs $8 for a 30 day supply[1].
The only other drug approved for PrEP in the US is Descovy, which is manufactured by Gilead, too, and costs $2300+ minimum for a 30 day supply.
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
This is a huge problem in the US. Truvada must be taken everyday to prevent HIV, and in 2015, it cost $1400 for a 30 day supply. In 2021, it costs between $1900 and $2500+ for a 30 day supply in the US.
Elsewhere in the world, Truvada might cost $40. In Australia, Truvada costs $8 for a 30 day supply[1].
The only other drug approved for PrEP in the US is Descovy, which is manufactured by Gilead, too, and costs $2300+ minimum for a 30 day supply.
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
Why doesn't the US pass a law that prevent such large deprecencies? Is it because the legal landscape is different and pharmaceuticals companies worry about the cost of litigation in the US?
Because the GOP is ideologically opposed to price controls (except when it's in the form of subsidies to their state's pet industry of course). Something, something, free market distortions I think is the usual reason.
Didn’t Trump pass some executive order clamping down on this very thing?
Biden stopped it before the EO went into effect.
https://archive.is/eh5GV
https://archive.is/eh5GV
To be clear, the Biden administration issued a regulatory rule freeze memorandum, and that's one of the things that was frozen. Has any decision since been made whether to implement the rule?
He signed at least two of them, one to cover Medicare Part B and one to cover Medicare Part D.
Dems control President, Senate and House
You know about the filibuster right? Republicans can filibuster (force infinite 'debate' though modern rules don't require people to actually talk during a filibuster any more [0]) anything they don't want to pass and it's up to extremely centrist (barely) Democrats like Joe Manchin if the filibuster remains. Without removing that it takes 10 Republican votes to stop debate on any bill.
There are some work arounds but they're limited to things that one person decides are sufficiently budget related enough to go through the reconciliation process that prevents filibusters. And that is a thrice a year option at most.
[0] I get why since senators have all sorts of commitments to their time even counting just Senate business but it means a there's basically no cost to doing one where there was.
There are some work arounds but they're limited to things that one person decides are sufficiently budget related enough to go through the reconciliation process that prevents filibusters. And that is a thrice a year option at most.
[0] I get why since senators have all sorts of commitments to their time even counting just Senate business but it means a there's basically no cost to doing one where there was.
Filibuster.
I think you’re misguided if you think this is a partisan issue. It’s an American issue where neither party has really adequately done anything about affordable healthcare and gouging like this.
Everything that has been done or been tried has had to pass or be written under the specter of the filibuster though. It fundamentally limits the type of options that get through. The only major change in the last decade was Obamacare which is remarkably similar to the system passed under a the Republican Governorship of Mitt Romney.
Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster. Reconciliation which is the only way around the filibuster guaranteed is pretty limited in scope due to the rules around it. Whether those could pass a vote if there was no filibuster is unknown because they all get completely blocked by Republican filibuster.
Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster. Reconciliation which is the only way around the filibuster guaranteed is pretty limited in scope due to the rules around it. Whether those could pass a vote if there was no filibuster is unknown because they all get completely blocked by Republican filibuster.
> The only major change in the last decade was Obamacare which is remarkably similar to the system passed under a the Republican Governorship of Mitt Romney.
Which itself was a state level implementation of a program the insurance industry and national Republicans were talking up as an alternative in the 90s when, i the wake of the failure of Clinton’s healthcare reform, it seemed there was enough residual demand for something to be done in that regard nationally that they thought they needed to bring something to the table.
Which itself was a state level implementation of a program the insurance industry and national Republicans were talking up as an alternative in the 90s when, i the wake of the failure of Clinton’s healthcare reform, it seemed there was enough residual demand for something to be done in that regard nationally that they thought they needed to bring something to the table.
The filibuster is a set of rules that both parties agreed to. One might well ask why Democrats in the senate agreed to this rule once again, knowing full well it would impede their ability to accomplish their publicly touted platform over the next few years.
The obvious answer is eventually they will be out of power again and will want it. In fact until a few years ago they had it for judges, but they got rid of it when Republicans filibustered. Then when Trump nominated a judge they didn't like, well they discovered the filibuster was gone by their own doing and they were powerless.
that obvious answer is not a good one. when democrats got material gains for working people they controlled congress from 1933 to 1980 except for two years. getting rid of the filibuster and packing the supreme court to pass and see to fruition real material gains would make democrats the ruling party for the foreseeable future. they don't do that because that's not what they want.
You don’t get elected for doing things, you get electing for promising to do things.
The obvious answer isn't really applicable here, though it does cross the lips of plenty of moderates. The reality is that the Democratic party is forced into being a "big tent" party of "everyone left of the Republicans," which represents a simply massive spectrum, and therefore they have less consensus than the Republican party. Take, for example, Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia who drew some ire after FiveThirtyEight found he sided with Trump's priorities 58% of the time. He's been vocal that he would never agree to eliminate the filibuster, because he's basically a Republican in all but name.
As an international who is not as familiar with American politics (but wants to understand), why is this comment being down voted? Are the claims incorrect? Are they unsubstantiated?
As the person who wrote it, I'm not sure; I think this one of those things that's colored by opinion as much as fact. I would like to hear someone say what they think.
The bit about Manchin is fact, though. They can't change the rule without him, and he doesn't want to eliminate the filibuster. He did say that he would consider modifying it to make it more difficult, however.
The bit about Manchin is fact, though. They can't change the rule without him, and he doesn't want to eliminate the filibuster. He did say that he would consider modifying it to make it more difficult, however.
Because they're just as correct when you switch the labels.
With two parties both jockey for position in being as close to center as possible while still appearing unique. To leave the center is to sacrifice those voters to the opposition. This is why first past the post voting is stable yet nearly useless.
Democrats consist of actual liberals, marxists, authoritatians, etc.
Republicans consist of actual fiscal conservatives, the religious, libertarians, etc.
Both are unhappy alliances and occasionally fracture and spill one of these constituencies and the opposition rushes to appeal to them.
With two parties both jockey for position in being as close to center as possible while still appearing unique. To leave the center is to sacrifice those voters to the opposition. This is why first past the post voting is stable yet nearly useless.
Democrats consist of actual liberals, marxists, authoritatians, etc.
Republicans consist of actual fiscal conservatives, the religious, libertarians, etc.
Both are unhappy alliances and occasionally fracture and spill one of these constituencies and the opposition rushes to appeal to them.
That's not true. Mitch McConnell got rid of the SCOTUS 'filibuster' lowered it to 51 votes - pretty hypocritically based on his statements but you can't take McConnell's word you have to look at what has power.
Harry Reid previously lowered cloture threshold for non SCOTUS appointments, but only after Republicans act(ed) in bad faith and refused to "Advice and Consent."
They refused to confirm 2 very important seats for 'cost savings' and claimed that the DC circuit was 'underworked.' This is in the context of anti-Obama everything and no matter how milquetoast the nominee was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_option#Use_in_2013_and...
Harry Reid previously lowered cloture threshold for non SCOTUS appointments, but only after Republicans act(ed) in bad faith and refused to "Advice and Consent."
They refused to confirm 2 very important seats for 'cost savings' and claimed that the DC circuit was 'underworked.' This is in the context of anti-Obama everything and no matter how milquetoast the nominee was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_option#Use_in_2013_and...
Kind of, the filibuster isn't so much in the rules as it's a consequence of other rules and (imo) a poorly designed government. The Senate was originally setup with truly unlimited debate, this is a pretty bad idea on the face of it because it allows a pretty small group to potentially completely stall the whole of the US government's law making apparatus. [0] So cloture was added which added a way to officially close debate on a bill to avoid that. It requires more coordination but still introduces an extra veto point into the government that most modern democracies don't have. It's an extremely powerful tool for the minority.
That very power is a reason I think there's a few hold outs on the Democrat side that don't want to get rid of it. The senate is naturally stacked against the democrats as the parties are currently aligned so a few don't want to risk giving up that power. There's also a number who (at least claim to) believe that the unlimited debate is an important part of the Senate.
Personally I think it's a relic that's getting in the way of passing the exact legislation that will make Democrats more popular (and make it easier to vote to counteract some extremely blatant voter suppression happening in red states).
[0] consider 3 senators working 8 hour shifts of 8 on 16 off. That would be maintainable for a very long time.
That very power is a reason I think there's a few hold outs on the Democrat side that don't want to get rid of it. The senate is naturally stacked against the democrats as the parties are currently aligned so a few don't want to risk giving up that power. There's also a number who (at least claim to) believe that the unlimited debate is an important part of the Senate.
Personally I think it's a relic that's getting in the way of passing the exact legislation that will make Democrats more popular (and make it easier to vote to counteract some extremely blatant voter suppression happening in red states).
[0] consider 3 senators working 8 hour shifts of 8 on 16 off. That would be maintainable for a very long time.
The US govt is heavily calibrated on the side of minority political factions in order to protect minorities from “oppressive” majority rule. It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. What recent events tell me is that we’re looking to the federal government to do more than it is/was meant to do. If that’s dated so be it but I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
For starters the Federal level has access to waaay more money and sources of money (including just 'printing' money, investment taxes, etc.) than any state and the larger the population the more power a government has in bargaining. It's also much easier for companies and people to just abandon a state to avoid paying new taxes than it is for them to leave the US entirely.
The power of the minority was a crappy compromise to get the less densely populated states (not coincidentally southern slave owning states) to sign on to the constitution. The original Articles of Confederation were even worse requiring basically unanimity to pass federal laws and taxes. The whole job of the Senate was to appease those same states. Do any other countries have this kind of explicit carve out for land (essentially) getting an equal weight?
The power of the minority was a crappy compromise to get the less densely populated states (not coincidentally southern slave owning states) to sign on to the constitution. The original Articles of Confederation were even worse requiring basically unanimity to pass federal laws and taxes. The whole job of the Senate was to appease those same states. Do any other countries have this kind of explicit carve out for land (essentially) getting an equal weight?
> It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates.
I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government.
> I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?
I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government.
> I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?
> I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government.
I think this is a big sustaining source of disillusion with the US government. Cynical minorities have a pretty easy way to make people hate the opposition by just blocking everything, this was even explicitly acknowledged by McConnel as their strategy. Block everything no matter how small.
I think this is a big sustaining source of disillusion with the US government. Cynical minorities have a pretty easy way to make people hate the opposition by just blocking everything, this was even explicitly acknowledged by McConnel as their strategy. Block everything no matter how small.
> Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster.
Repetitively, issues are raised and forgotten by politicians, and never actually solved by the party in power. For various reasons, many people have come to believe propaganda about the filibuster. For example, Sen. Warren and others say that the filibuster is racist and a relic of the past, yet Democrats (including Warren) filibustered the Republican's $500 billion coronavirus relief bill in September of last year. They were really saving their votes to send you money after the election. They also filibustered a Republican police-reform bill last year.
While the parties do not necessarily hold the same platforms as each other, many of the Senators literally went to school in order to become politicians. They are not your friends. They are prevaricating in order to remain in power and make money. Not all - but many of them. Warren has some redeeming qualities, but facts are facts. She has been a Senator since 2013 and has had her own share of "clarified statements".
Definition: A wedge issue is a divisive political issue, especially one that is raised by a candidate for public office in hopes of attracting or alienating an opponent's supporters.
These wedge issues are used to keep people's emotions going, so as to vote for one party and hate the other. Then, the issues are not solved a the times they could. There is a reason for the existence of an actual term, wedge issue, for the concept - because it constantly happens.
Repetitively, issues are raised and forgotten by politicians, and never actually solved by the party in power. For various reasons, many people have come to believe propaganda about the filibuster. For example, Sen. Warren and others say that the filibuster is racist and a relic of the past, yet Democrats (including Warren) filibustered the Republican's $500 billion coronavirus relief bill in September of last year. They were really saving their votes to send you money after the election. They also filibustered a Republican police-reform bill last year.
While the parties do not necessarily hold the same platforms as each other, many of the Senators literally went to school in order to become politicians. They are not your friends. They are prevaricating in order to remain in power and make money. Not all - but many of them. Warren has some redeeming qualities, but facts are facts. She has been a Senator since 2013 and has had her own share of "clarified statements".
Definition: A wedge issue is a divisive political issue, especially one that is raised by a candidate for public office in hopes of attracting or alienating an opponent's supporters.
These wedge issues are used to keep people's emotions going, so as to vote for one party and hate the other. Then, the issues are not solved a the times they could. There is a reason for the existence of an actual term, wedge issue, for the concept - because it constantly happens.
Obamacare has an annual out of pocket cost cap of ~$6300 on healthcare including prescriptions.
Sure, that is still pretty high, but it basically saved my life. If not for Obamacare I would need to come up with over 300k per year to not get very sick.
This isn't an either party is the same situation. One party would let me be seriously ill. One would give me a possible solution.
Sure, that is still pretty high, but it basically saved my life. If not for Obamacare I would need to come up with over 300k per year to not get very sick.
This isn't an either party is the same situation. One party would let me be seriously ill. One would give me a possible solution.
The problem is that it can always be taken away from you. Remember, the Affordable Care Act ruling is supposed to come out this summer.
I am on an orphan drug myself (subcutaneous immunoglobulin, which I am self-infusing at the moment...) which costed $278,000/year under contract, when I lived in the US. Of course the provider bills a much higher amount. But the figure I gave is the one that is paid out, over the course of a year.
You should know that the third leading cause of death in the US is believed to be preventable medical errors. This has been corroborated via multiple follow-up studies, just google "third leading cause of death US medical errors". But, here is the original article: https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
You can go to the "best hospitals", have the "best insurance", and "be able to pay for care", but you cannot evade a statistic like that. The medical error rate is on par with developing countries, by the way.
Also, 7-8% of the general population collectively has some sort of rare disease, which is theoretically treated by orphan drugs. There are now orphan drugs that cost $2 million/year per person, and the cost is so extortionate that it is literally going to screw over the US health system. Such meds have to be taken for life.: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/25/health/drug-prices-rare-d...
Also, life expectancy does not look so good in the US.
How healthy will we be in 2040? http://www.healthdata.org/news-release/how-healthy-will-we-b...
US was 43rd worldwide in life expectancy in 2016. In 2040, we are expected to be 64th.
Honestly, this kind of stuff is why I emigrated and I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen. As an EU citizen, I have Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in 30+ countries within the EU and EFTA (minus Liechtenstein--has an immigration quota).
Because of your health status, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are off limits because they have strict medical inadmissability clauses in their immigration laws. I would stay away from the UK too, because they could implement such rules post-Brexit.
But, I have studied healthcare systems, logistics of healthcare, along with rules for acquiring citizenship, for hundreds of hours. If you want any help or advice, feel free to shoot me an email (check my profile).
I am on an orphan drug myself (subcutaneous immunoglobulin, which I am self-infusing at the moment...) which costed $278,000/year under contract, when I lived in the US. Of course the provider bills a much higher amount. But the figure I gave is the one that is paid out, over the course of a year.
You should know that the third leading cause of death in the US is believed to be preventable medical errors. This has been corroborated via multiple follow-up studies, just google "third leading cause of death US medical errors". But, here is the original article: https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
You can go to the "best hospitals", have the "best insurance", and "be able to pay for care", but you cannot evade a statistic like that. The medical error rate is on par with developing countries, by the way.
Also, 7-8% of the general population collectively has some sort of rare disease, which is theoretically treated by orphan drugs. There are now orphan drugs that cost $2 million/year per person, and the cost is so extortionate that it is literally going to screw over the US health system. Such meds have to be taken for life.: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/25/health/drug-prices-rare-d...
Also, life expectancy does not look so good in the US.
How healthy will we be in 2040? http://www.healthdata.org/news-release/how-healthy-will-we-b...
US was 43rd worldwide in life expectancy in 2016. In 2040, we are expected to be 64th.
Honestly, this kind of stuff is why I emigrated and I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen. As an EU citizen, I have Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in 30+ countries within the EU and EFTA (minus Liechtenstein--has an immigration quota).
Because of your health status, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are off limits because they have strict medical inadmissability clauses in their immigration laws. I would stay away from the UK too, because they could implement such rules post-Brexit.
But, I have studied healthcare systems, logistics of healthcare, along with rules for acquiring citizenship, for hundreds of hours. If you want any help or advice, feel free to shoot me an email (check my profile).
It's not a partisan issue at all. Both parties are aligned with Big Pharma to screw over the American people.
Partisan gridlock is terrible, but it's even worse when the parties agree...
Partisan gridlock is terrible, but it's even worse when the parties agree...
Because the passage of laws is bought and paid for by corporations.
Because Big Pharma lobbies to prevent such laws from being imposed. There’s even a law that prevents Medicare from negotiating down the price of drugs, with obvious consequences.
English isn't my first language so I might be asking something obvious here, but what's a deprecency?
Typo of "discrepancy".
We had a president that addressed this but people didn't like that he sent 'nasty' tweets. then his successor overturned the order and we all celebrated.
OK, I'm legitimately curious to know more. I do remember him talking about "making insulin as cheap as water" or something like that, but can you point me to the actual executive order or bill he was trying to pass that dealt with this issue of lowering the cost for prescriptions? A source about Biden overturning whatever it was would be great as well.
I don't preclude Trump from having actually done something meaningful, but a lot of what he does is vain and self-promoting, so I could easily see this being a case where he tried to put something into effect that looks good on the surface but doesn't actually accomplish anything, or doesn't accomplish it in a sustainable way and thus would need to be revoked to prevent prices going up in the long term.
I don't preclude Trump from having actually done something meaningful, but a lot of what he does is vain and self-promoting, so I could easily see this being a case where he tried to put something into effect that looks good on the surface but doesn't actually accomplish anything, or doesn't accomplish it in a sustainable way and thus would need to be revoked to prevent prices going up in the long term.
fny(1)
I remember him making a lot of noise about making insulin super cheap or giving us the best and cheapest health plan to replace obamacare, he had a full 4 years in office to accomplish this, including two years with complete control of congress. So what exactly did he accomplish?
DanHulton(1)
I'm sorry, but he didn't.
I thought it was a great idea, but issuing a bunch of scattershot EOs that never actually get implemented is not addressing anything.
The problem is that in reality he was all sending nasty tweets and no actual substance.
I thought it was a great idea, but issuing a bunch of scattershot EOs that never actually get implemented is not addressing anything.
The problem is that in reality he was all sending nasty tweets and no actual substance.
Trump's EO on lowering insulin prices never got implemented because biden rescinded it.
Trump waited until 2020 to sign a bunch of fake healthcare EOs that had little chance of being implemented. What was he doing the previous 3 years on healthcare beyond trying to strip all of it away???
He only did this to distract from COVID and even when he wrote the EOs everyone said they were going to get jammed up in the courts forever.
I'm not going to play pretend about things trump really truly wanted to do but waited 3.5 years until the middle of a pandemic, and then never implemented.
He only did this to distract from COVID and even when he wrote the EOs everyone said they were going to get jammed up in the courts forever.
I'm not going to play pretend about things trump really truly wanted to do but waited 3.5 years until the middle of a pandemic, and then never implemented.
Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You started out with a good post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24915604), but since then have been breaking the site guidelines.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Worth noting that no one pays $1400 a month. Their insurance covers it, just like insurance covers you in Australia or Germany or Canada or anywhere else.
But then, doesn't that mean everyone with coverage pays for it?Insurance pays for it, and everyone with coverage pays for these high costs through high premiums -- public healthcare in Canada doesn't pay for drugs, and even without insurance the cost of those drugs tends to be substantially cheaper, at least in the few scenarios I've been exposed to.
More likely it means you pay (or more appropriately, your insurance company pays) the negotiated rate, which is often far, far less than the published retail cost of a medication.
Those big monthly $$s get investors excited tho.
This is to say nothing of the public / private debate.
Those big monthly $$s get investors excited tho.
This is to say nothing of the public / private debate.
Insurance doesn't pay $1400 either.
I mean 225,000 Americans are on it, and multiply that by 1400 x 12, and you're already way past Truvada's global annual revenue. The numbers don't work out.
Americans do subsidize European and African prices though, there's no doubt about that.
I mean 225,000 Americans are on it, and multiply that by 1400 x 12, and you're already way past Truvada's global annual revenue. The numbers don't work out.
Americans do subsidize European and African prices though, there's no doubt about that.
> Worth noting that no one pays $1400 a month
There are millions of people with deductibles that are in the $2000 - $8000+ range, and even higher for family plans. Those people are certainly paying $1400 for several months until their insurance kicks in. Then, in the next coverage year, they get to spend that $1400 several times again, and they continue that pattern each year.
If their insurance doesn't cover it, they're also paying $1400.
There are millions of people with deductibles that are in the $2000 - $8000+ range, and even higher for family plans. Those people are certainly paying $1400 for several months until their insurance kicks in. Then, in the next coverage year, they get to spend that $1400 several times again, and they continue that pattern each year.
If their insurance doesn't cover it, they're also paying $1400.
Corruption. Seriously. It is both chronic and legal here.
The US had a president who tried. Yeah, that guy.
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/11/20/fact-sheet-trump-a...
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/11/20/fact-sheet-trump-a...
It costs quite a lot to take any given new drug to market (one study suggested a median of 0.985 billion, and a mean of 1.3 billion), and most of them do not make it. They must recoup expenses somehow, or go broke, and then ... no new drugs. To that end, they get a limited period of exclusivity over their invention.
Now, is this done efficiently? I don't know. Perhaps the FDA approval process could be less costly. Or we could limit litigation in some manner. And so on.
But they're sure not gonna churn out new drugs for the cost of some generics.
Now, is this done efficiently? I don't know. Perhaps the FDA approval process could be less costly. Or we could limit litigation in some manner. And so on.
But they're sure not gonna churn out new drugs for the cost of some generics.
While I can appreciate that drugs _do_ cost money to manufacture, it does not mean that people should be expected to pay hundreds or thousands for a drug that is vital to their health.
The money comes from somewhere. You can make it direct or you can make it indirect, but it is still coming from one bank account or another.
Essentially, the US is footing the bill for the world. If you look at overseas pharmacies, PReP has been available (as are many drugs) at very cheap prices for quite a while now. Some countries just ignore the drug patents and go on their merry way. Our current method of accounting inside the US has people pay into insurance, which then pays out for these particular drugs.
Essentially, the US is footing the bill for the world. If you look at overseas pharmacies, PReP has been available (as are many drugs) at very cheap prices for quite a while now. Some countries just ignore the drug patents and go on their merry way. Our current method of accounting inside the US has people pay into insurance, which then pays out for these particular drugs.
Or pharma could not make profit/pay dividends? That seems like a much bigger 'cost' than FDA paperwork (though trials are expensive)
Instead of making a smart-ass comment, I was prompted by your reply to look.
Some non-profit pharmas do exist, but it appears that they are largely focused on generics or orphan drugs. I have seen some press-release stuff on how some of them could work in drug discovery, but it was always a team-up with someone else, and I couldn't find what new drugs had actually made it to market from non-profit pharmas.
I suppose the only way to really prove this one way or another would be to select the last thousand drugs to market globally, note the country of origin and the company, and whether or not they were for-profit or not. Perhaps build out on that -- how much did it cost to bring that to market? How many failed per pharma?
Some non-profit pharmas do exist, but it appears that they are largely focused on generics or orphan drugs. I have seen some press-release stuff on how some of them could work in drug discovery, but it was always a team-up with someone else, and I couldn't find what new drugs had actually made it to market from non-profit pharmas.
I suppose the only way to really prove this one way or another would be to select the last thousand drugs to market globally, note the country of origin and the company, and whether or not they were for-profit or not. Perhaps build out on that -- how much did it cost to bring that to market? How many failed per pharma?
So two valid arguments to have: drug discovery, & whether 'market incentives' give us cheaper & more drugs.
My main point is looking at this holistically profit is a huge % and a terrible incentive for both what drugs are pushed and trialed and how much they can gouge us to benefit their shareholders.
Gilead is 79%... More than 2x apple. [1]
That is ethically wrong.
Government already funds (most seems like this research article sats? [2]) early stage research e.g. discovery. Then the drug companies take the best looking candidates but they have gross incentives to pick the most potential profit, not the most benefit to society (like HIV a so far lifetime disease where our lives are dependent on this medicine) - why pay to research a prodrug or big stage 3 trial on a drug you cant make money on.
In terms of 'market incentive' on the manufacturing side manufacturing costs themselves are tiny [4] and if anything my intuition is it has a net negative effect on quality. these companies try to penny pinch and push the every lessoning government oversight to its limits & offshore production with dangerous JIT supply chains and single source failures. Plus Republicans refuse to allow the government to negotiate or 'interfere' with 'the market' in the name of 'market incentive' kudos to trump to buck the party though.
and it also seems setting up a non-profit is currently hostile by the system our government has concocted because of pharma lobby & their ad persuasion $ [3]
https://statista.com/statistics/473429/top-global-pharmaceut...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK50972/
https://waxmanstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Nonp...
https://gh.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000571
My main point is looking at this holistically profit is a huge % and a terrible incentive for both what drugs are pushed and trialed and how much they can gouge us to benefit their shareholders.
Gilead is 79%... More than 2x apple. [1]
That is ethically wrong.
Government already funds (most seems like this research article sats? [2]) early stage research e.g. discovery. Then the drug companies take the best looking candidates but they have gross incentives to pick the most potential profit, not the most benefit to society (like HIV a so far lifetime disease where our lives are dependent on this medicine) - why pay to research a prodrug or big stage 3 trial on a drug you cant make money on.
In terms of 'market incentive' on the manufacturing side manufacturing costs themselves are tiny [4] and if anything my intuition is it has a net negative effect on quality. these companies try to penny pinch and push the every lessoning government oversight to its limits & offshore production with dangerous JIT supply chains and single source failures. Plus Republicans refuse to allow the government to negotiate or 'interfere' with 'the market' in the name of 'market incentive' kudos to trump to buck the party though.
and it also seems setting up a non-profit is currently hostile by the system our government has concocted because of pharma lobby & their ad persuasion $ [3]
https://statista.com/statistics/473429/top-global-pharmaceut...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK50972/
https://waxmanstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Nonp...
https://gh.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000571
[deleted]
It's relevant to mention that the patent for every component of Truvada will expire this September.
No guarantee the price will go down in the US as a result.
An epilepsy medication I took, once the patents completely expired (both on the regular and extended release versions), the generics ended up costing me more to pick up while the branded version rose in price as well.
An epilepsy medication I took, once the patents completely expired (both on the regular and extended release versions), the generics ended up costing me more to pick up while the branded version rose in price as well.
It typically takes about 6 months to 3 years for generic drug prices to decline due to how we approve generics in the USA. Most people don't know that we have an insane policy whereby the first generic drug applicant receives an extended period of market exclusivity.
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/abbreviated-new-drug-application-a...
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/abbreviated-new-drug-application-a...
I'm curious with what the motivation behind that rule is -- assuming there is one and the rule isn't a result of plain lobbying.
"Most people don't know that we have an insane policy whereby the first generic drug applicant receives an extended period of market exclusivity."
The US has some of the lowest cost generics in developed nations - prices tend to be lower than the EU. The US has some of the highest generic drug penetration of developed nations. [1] That's because of things like the 180 generic drug exclusivity and mandatory generic substitution laws.
The 180 exclusivity is a big part of that. If you open the flood gates to any generic manufacturer, the margins disappear so quickly that some manufacturers won't even bother to try. By dangling a massive carrot whereby the generic manufacturers can quickly recoup costs and make a large profit, it drives generic companies to compete to the enter the market.
When Lipitor went off patent, eleven generic companies entered the market and prices dropped 95%.
The US generic market is one of the best functioning in the world.
[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5594322/
The US has some of the lowest cost generics in developed nations - prices tend to be lower than the EU. The US has some of the highest generic drug penetration of developed nations. [1] That's because of things like the 180 generic drug exclusivity and mandatory generic substitution laws.
The 180 exclusivity is a big part of that. If you open the flood gates to any generic manufacturer, the margins disappear so quickly that some manufacturers won't even bother to try. By dangling a massive carrot whereby the generic manufacturers can quickly recoup costs and make a large profit, it drives generic companies to compete to the enter the market.
When Lipitor went off patent, eleven generic companies entered the market and prices dropped 95%.
The US generic market is one of the best functioning in the world.
[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5594322/
Generic truvada is available in the US but isn't dramatically cheaper. How likely is it that the patent expiration will actually drive down prices?
But does that cover the combo? I guess you could take two pills.
Interesting that the UK-based Independent did this reporting without mentioning that the NHS still hasn't issued approval for Truvada to be provided outside of trial programs.
I googled your claim and found this:
https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/prep-is-finally-available-on...
http://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/nhs_england_will_make_prep...
So it seems that your claim is (thankfully) outdated.
https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/prep-is-finally-available-on...
http://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/nhs_england_will_make_prep...
So it seems that your claim is (thankfully) outdated.
I looked up pricing of Truvada vs. Descovy through my insurance, and weirdly Truvada would be a $40 copay, yet Descovy is $0 as insurance covers the entire obscene amount ($~2200 for a 30 day supply).
Medical insurance companies know they get a slice of the pie, so the size of the pie is really, really important to future growth.
Also, can't help but wonder if your insurance company has an ownership interest in Descovy...somewhere. $2200 is cheap if you're paying it to yourself. And the pie grows.
Yeah, that's my mildly paranoid writing for the week, methinks.
Also, can't help but wonder if your insurance company has an ownership interest in Descovy...somewhere. $2200 is cheap if you're paying it to yourself. And the pie grows.
Yeah, that's my mildly paranoid writing for the week, methinks.
I don't know anyone who's actually paying for PrEP here in the US because pretty much every provider's going to cover it, no? It's more expensive treat HIV than it is to prevent it, so if you're an at-risk individual your insurance doesn't want you getting it
Not everybody has or can afford insurance.
Exactly. It's like assuming everyone has a Mercedes, a smartphone, or a butler. M4A is also not a solution for universal healthcare because Medicare isn't very good: it requires multiple types of paid co-insurance, rations healthcare, and doesn't pay doctors enough to motivate them to help patients. Medicare is a bare-bones, half-measure that doesn't offer a healthcare system. The common refrain of "It's better than nothing" is an invalid rationalization to settle for substandard healthcare.
Several insurance companies like UnitedHealthCare had to be sued into covering PrEP. Not many insurance companies are going to happily cover a medication that can cost ~$30,000+ a year to fill.
Even now, United is making it clear that they don't intend to cover new PrEP medication like Descovy even though the medication doesn't cause as much renal damage and failure as Truvada does: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/payer-issues/unitedhea...
If you have a high deductible insurance plan, it is not going to be fun to pay for your first few months of PrEP entirely out of pocket. Many people are priced out of PrEP because of that, as are the uninsured and underinsured.
Even now, United is making it clear that they don't intend to cover new PrEP medication like Descovy even though the medication doesn't cause as much renal damage and failure as Truvada does: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/payer-issues/unitedhea...
If you have a high deductible insurance plan, it is not going to be fun to pay for your first few months of PrEP entirely out of pocket. Many people are priced out of PrEP because of that, as are the uninsured and underinsured.
The copay should be refunded by Gilead. but it shouldn't have to be that way and many can't just be out $1k for 60 days.
One thing that I've never understood is: if the cost of medicine (insulin is another example) is so high in the US, couldn't you just import?
america is a free market when you don't look at the collusion between industry and government (i.e. import bans and tariffs).
https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-basics/it-legal-me-persona...
>In most circumstances, it is illegal for individuals to import drugs into the United States for personal use.
https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-basics/it-legal-me-persona...
>In most circumstances, it is illegal for individuals to import drugs into the United States for personal use.
FDA, however, has a policy explaining that it typically does not object to personal imports of drugs that FDA has not approved under certain circumstances, including the following situation:
and Generally, not more than a 3-month supply of the drug is imported. >> And even if the drug could save your life and it's not available in the US you still have to play this stupid traveling game every three months. I'm sure most people with chronic illnesses love to burn their money being forced to travel due to some arbitrary regulation
Holy shit fuck the fda
The drug is for use for a serious condition for which effective treatment is not available in the United States; There is no commercialization or promotion of the drug to U.S. residents; The drug is considered not to represent an unreasonable risk; The individual importing the drug verifies in writing that it is for his or her own use, and provides contact information for the doctor providing treatment or shows the product is for the continuation of treatment begun in a foreign country;and Generally, not more than a 3-month supply of the drug is imported. >> And even if the drug could save your life and it's not available in the US you still have to play this stupid traveling game every three months. I'm sure most people with chronic illnesses love to burn their money being forced to travel due to some arbitrary regulation
Holy shit fuck the fda
> Elsewhere in the world, Truvada might cost $40. In Australia, Truvada costs $8 for a 30 day supply[1].
AUD 6.60 in Australia is the cost for those eligible for the concession PBS rate (those that are on welfare, pension etc.). It's AUD 41.30 for everyone else.
This is all thanks to our government negotiating a good rate with the manufacturer and then subsidizing the costs. This is not what all governments do, unfortunately.
AUD 6.60 in Australia is the cost for those eligible for the concession PBS rate (those that are on welfare, pension etc.). It's AUD 41.30 for everyone else.
This is all thanks to our government negotiating a good rate with the manufacturer and then subsidizing the costs. This is not what all governments do, unfortunately.
There is absolutely NO WAY that a brand name drug costs $8 dollars. This is just confusion.
8 dollars is what the user pays in co-pay at a pharmacy. Taxes paid for others shoulder the rest, via a subsidy mechanism.
Reference from the first google search: https://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/78769/truvada-300-20...
Private prescription means you forgo the govt subsidy. Truvada is apparently no longer on the subsidized (PBS) list: https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/national-news/no-more-s...
8 dollars is what the user pays in co-pay at a pharmacy. Taxes paid for others shoulder the rest, via a subsidy mechanism.
Reference from the first google search: https://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/78769/truvada-300-20...
Private prescription means you forgo the govt subsidy. Truvada is apparently no longer on the subsidized (PBS) list: https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/national-news/no-more-s...
Cost is the largest factor. HIV could be nearly eliminated entirely if PREP wasn’t a cash cow for Gilead.
Uhm... Last I checked many pharmaceuticals that compete with Gilead also operate in the HIV space.
No, the only two drugs approved for PrEP in the US are Truvada and Descovy, both of which are Gilead drugs.
I stand by what I said. On a worldwide revenue basis, there are many other manufacturers that have strong incentives to develop a cure. Also, I disagree that "PrEP" would eliminate HIV. It's a prophylactic, not a cure, and one that will not be affordable globally for a looooong time. Even at $30 per month, the drug would be out of reach for many (see Africa where annual incomes hover around $1-2K annually.)
1. Gilead owns 3 of 4 top HIV drugs. GSK owns the #2, Triumeq.
2. GSK, Merk, J&J are all megacap, viable competitors with their own HIV products. Yes, its true that Merk and Gilead are in cahoots, but this was out of fear of GSKs dominance.
3. Some other US-listed names who are developing HIV drugs: ViiV (GSK subsidiary), Bristol Myers Squibb, Janssen, Mylan, Genentech, Abbvie.
Yes, the US is currently dominated by one company, but that does not mean there are heavy incentives for competitors--who are already well invested in the space--to break in.
[0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/273434/revenue-of-the-wo...
1. Gilead owns 3 of 4 top HIV drugs. GSK owns the #2, Triumeq.
2. GSK, Merk, J&J are all megacap, viable competitors with their own HIV products. Yes, its true that Merk and Gilead are in cahoots, but this was out of fear of GSKs dominance.
3. Some other US-listed names who are developing HIV drugs: ViiV (GSK subsidiary), Bristol Myers Squibb, Janssen, Mylan, Genentech, Abbvie.
Yes, the US is currently dominated by one company, but that does not mean there are heavy incentives for competitors--who are already well invested in the space--to break in.
[0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/273434/revenue-of-the-wo...
I stand by my assertion that cost is the limiting factor :)
[deleted]
Gilead's patent on Truvada (the most common drug used for PrEP) just expired. As of a few months ago it's available as a generic.
Generic Truvada costs between $1600 - $2200 a month without a discount. GoodRx brings it down to about $600 - $1200.
As I understand it, only one company makes the generic right now.
As others begin producing it market pressure will hopefully drive those costs down.
It’s also worth noting that some insurance companies have recently begun classifying it as preventative medicine (as it should’ve been this whole time) and covering it at 100%.
As others begin producing it market pressure will hopefully drive those costs down.
It’s also worth noting that some insurance companies have recently begun classifying it as preventative medicine (as it should’ve been this whole time) and covering it at 100%.
> As others begin producing it market pressure will hopefully drive those costs down.
That's the idea, but it doesn't really work that way.
https://hbr.org/2017/04/how-pharma-companies-game-the-system...
> One of the ways branded drug manufacturers prevent competition is simple: cash. In so-called “pay for delay” agreements, a brand drug company simply pays a generic company not to launch a version of a drug. The Federal Trade Commission estimates these pacts cost U.S. consumers and taxpayers $3.5 billion in higher drug costs each year.
and this fun one...
> Another way pharmaceutical firms are thwarting generics is by restricting access to samples for testing. Generic drug makers need to be able to purchase a sample of a brand-name product to conduct bioequivalence testing. That’s because they have to prove they can make a bioequivalent product following the current good manufacturing practices (CGMP) standard. These manufacturers don’t need to conduct clinical trials like the original drug company did.
> But the original drug developer often declines to sell drug samples to generics manufacturers by citing “FDA requirements,” by which they mean the agency’s Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies program. The idea behind this program is a good one: give access to patients who will benefit from these personalized medicines, and bar access for patients who won’t benefit and could be seriously harmed. However, brand drug makers are citing these requirements for the sole purpose of keeping generics from coming to market.
That's the idea, but it doesn't really work that way.
https://hbr.org/2017/04/how-pharma-companies-game-the-system...
> One of the ways branded drug manufacturers prevent competition is simple: cash. In so-called “pay for delay” agreements, a brand drug company simply pays a generic company not to launch a version of a drug. The Federal Trade Commission estimates these pacts cost U.S. consumers and taxpayers $3.5 billion in higher drug costs each year.
and this fun one...
> Another way pharmaceutical firms are thwarting generics is by restricting access to samples for testing. Generic drug makers need to be able to purchase a sample of a brand-name product to conduct bioequivalence testing. That’s because they have to prove they can make a bioequivalent product following the current good manufacturing practices (CGMP) standard. These manufacturers don’t need to conduct clinical trials like the original drug company did.
> But the original drug developer often declines to sell drug samples to generics manufacturers by citing “FDA requirements,” by which they mean the agency’s Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies program. The idea behind this program is a good one: give access to patients who will benefit from these personalized medicines, and bar access for patients who won’t benefit and could be seriously harmed. However, brand drug makers are citing these requirements for the sole purpose of keeping generics from coming to market.
But since there is already a generic apparently this did not work?
Successfully limiting the number of generic competitors still helps quite a bit.
That's not how the system works. The first generic get 6 months of market exclusivity. The FDA won't approve any other until after the 6 months is up.
And if one generic manufacturer was able to get approved, then the flood gates are open. It won't limit anything if all those additional patents were found invalid (which they would need to be for the 1st generic to be approved).
And if one generic manufacturer was able to get approved, then the flood gates are open. It won't limit anything if all those additional patents were found invalid (which they would need to be for the 1st generic to be approved).
Thats collusion and its supposed to be illegal. Maybe the US should enforce the laws it has or get more teeth in anti-trust cases by expanding the definition.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collusion.asp
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collusion.asp
Pharma has leadership of both Dems and republicans. It’s one of the most underrated lobbying groups in the country
[deleted]
Generic medicines also require licensing, which costs money and takes time. A whole lot more could be done by governments to facilitate more competition in generic drugs.
India manufacturers it for $6 a month. Gilead looks the other way as long its only used in the 3rd world.
Why does this falsehood keep being repeated as the truth?
I suppose you know the truth, then?
fny did it for me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26693761
15,000 people a year still die in the US with HIV.
https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/stat...
https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/stat...
This vaccine doesn't prevent infection by HIV so it's not ready for real world use. What it does is prime the immune system so that a second vaccine might become more effective. The second vaccine still needs to be developed though
H.i.v. spread is not so easy to prævent as many think.
Many seem to think that the use of a condom turns transmission risk from 99% to 0% or something along those lines.
The reality is more so that it changes 1% to 0.3%, and it heavily depends on the sex act and direction of transmission as well.
Another not so often sung fact is that the transmission rate from patients who take blockers properly, and thus have an undetectable viral load is 0%.
https://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/estimated-hiv-risk-exposur...
Many seem to think that the use of a condom turns transmission risk from 99% to 0% or something along those lines.
The reality is more so that it changes 1% to 0.3%, and it heavily depends on the sex act and direction of transmission as well.
Another not so often sung fact is that the transmission rate from patients who take blockers properly, and thus have an undetectable viral load is 0%.
https://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/estimated-hiv-risk-exposur...
If you look at the link below, you’ll see that the 70% figure comes from a study of repeated sex over time (with self-reported condom usage), and so can’t be applied to the figures for a single sex act. Preventing semen from coming in contact with the vagina/anus will reduce transmission risk to effectively zero, and condoms don’t break all that often.
Correct condom use will make you as an individual much safer. But as a public health strategy, telling people to use condoms has a significant but limited effect.
More info here: https://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/do-condoms-work
Correct condom use will make you as an individual much safer. But as a public health strategy, telling people to use condoms has a significant but limited effect.
More info here: https://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/do-condoms-work
Wow that link has been super informative, thank you! I knew that the transmission risk was actually lower than commonly thought but wasn't aware that it was direction- and sexual act-dependent, nor that condoms were of great but still limited effect. Thanks!
In fact, receptive penio-anal sex has about 17 times as high a transmission rate than receptive penio-vaginal sex, which an order of magnitude more difference than what a condom can make in either.
The difference a condom makes is quite comparable to being the receiver or penetrator in penio-vaginal sex, in fact.
The difference a condom makes is quite comparable to being the receiver or penetrator in penio-vaginal sex, in fact.
[deleted]
Distribution? There’s no evidence that it works yet
From NPR interviews I listened to during the early days of the mRNA vaccines showing incredible promise, I understood that one of the problems with HIV is that the human body does not naturally have strong defense mechanisms (antibodies, etc) for this type of virus. Hence, the usual vaccine path (or mRNA derived method) of accelerating the learning of the body's T-cells, etc. to manufacture its own defenses is not very effective -- they are not there to begin with.
Is that not correct? What are they doing differently here?
Is that not correct? What are they doing differently here?
Passive immunization with broadly neutralizing antibodies have been shown to prevent HIV infection in various animal studies. The goal is apparently to make the immune system able to manufacture such antibodies. The human immune system is fundamentally able to come up with these antibodies on its own, as some HIV positive individuals do develop them, but at least during natural infection they don't appear in everyone.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604566/
However, antibody levels won't be as high in vaccinated individuals as they are in those passive immunization animal studies, at least not forever. The body can't afford to produce full levels of antibodies for all antigens all the time. Instead, human bodies reduce produced antibody levels some time after the event that triggered the production of the antibodies. The immune system remembers the antibodies it has come up with, and can ramp up their production quickly if the antigen is re-encountered, but the question is whether this reaction is quick enough to prevent HIV infection. IIRC people with who produce broadly neutralizing antibodies naturally still eventually develop AIDS, if left untreated. Time has to tell if vaccinated individuals behave more like those animal models, or more like that subset of people who produce broadly neutralizing antibodies a few years post infection.
Until now, every vaccine for HIV has failed, and there have been many attempts. But you never win if you never try :).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604566/
However, antibody levels won't be as high in vaccinated individuals as they are in those passive immunization animal studies, at least not forever. The body can't afford to produce full levels of antibodies for all antigens all the time. Instead, human bodies reduce produced antibody levels some time after the event that triggered the production of the antibodies. The immune system remembers the antibodies it has come up with, and can ramp up their production quickly if the antigen is re-encountered, but the question is whether this reaction is quick enough to prevent HIV infection. IIRC people with who produce broadly neutralizing antibodies naturally still eventually develop AIDS, if left untreated. Time has to tell if vaccinated individuals behave more like those animal models, or more like that subset of people who produce broadly neutralizing antibodies a few years post infection.
Until now, every vaccine for HIV has failed, and there have been many attempts. But you never win if you never try :).
My understanding is that many HIV vaccine candidates have showed promising Phase I results but so far they have all failed in later trials.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_vaccine_development lists five vaccines that made it to Phase 2-3 (and all failed). Two of them appeared to increase the risk of contracting HIV. The strongest candidate appears to have been ~30% effective.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_vaccine_development lists five vaccines that made it to Phase 2-3 (and all failed). Two of them appeared to increase the risk of contracting HIV. The strongest candidate appears to have been ~30% effective.
Interesting that there was some warnings given about using the same vectored technique on a Covid vaccine (AstraZeneca is an example) could also potentially increase the risk of contracting HIV? https://www.ajmc.com/view/researchers-warn-of-heightened-ris...
Note that Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca use different adenoviruses as vectors than Merck’s failed Ad5 vaccine.
Note that Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca use different adenoviruses as vectors than Merck’s failed Ad5 vaccine.
The title seems to over-promise.
> ...the vaccine successfully stimulated the production of the rare immune cells needed to generate antibodies against HIV in 97 percent of participants.
This is not the same as creating a 97% antibody response.
The article goes on to say that it's part of a mutli-step process to create immunity, so it seems this initial shot is not enough.
This needs more clarity from someone with expertise in the field.
> ...the vaccine successfully stimulated the production of the rare immune cells needed to generate antibodies against HIV in 97 percent of participants.
This is not the same as creating a 97% antibody response.
The article goes on to say that it's part of a mutli-step process to create immunity, so it seems this initial shot is not enough.
This needs more clarity from someone with expertise in the field.
This looks to be the original announcement from February: https://www.iavi.org/news-resources/press-releases/2021/firs...
Browsers not showing full URLs were the first bad thing, but now articles are linking to domain names, which makes those links unusable for cross-checking references.
Browsers not showing full URLs were the first bad thing, but now articles are linking to domain names, which makes those links unusable for cross-checking references.
Does this cure pre-existing infections
The vaccines that I'm aware of only prevent infection in people without HIV. You can look up the vaccines on clinicaltrials.gov and find out their efficacy in different populations.
I'd guess so?
It seems to target cells outside of HIV's production pipeline (to stimulate them into becoming little antibody factories).
It seems to target cells outside of HIV's production pipeline (to stimulate them into becoming little antibody factories).
At this point, no one knows if it actually prevents HIV, just that it produces a immune response (which can be detected through blood tests) which indicates that it could.
In general, it is possible that an HIV vaccine could lead to remission of pre-existing infections, but it's impossible to know yet if this one would do that.
In general, it is possible that an HIV vaccine could lead to remission of pre-existing infections, but it's impossible to know yet if this one would do that.
Haven’t there been multiple HIV vaccines that cleared initial trials but did not actually work? Is antibody response rate a meaningful metric?
Phase 1 is only designed to test safety. This is great news, but way way too early to celebrate.
Phase 1 is only designed to test safety. This is great news, but way way too early to celebrate.
Africa really needs to be the target rollout for these vaccines if and when they materialize.
> The Swazi population faces major health issues: HIV/AIDS and (to a lesser extent) tuberculosis are widespread.It is estimated that 26% of the adult population is HIV-positive. As of 2018, Eswatini has the 12th-lowest life expectancy in the world, at 58 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eswatini
It seems countries like this could benefit massively from an effective vaccine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eswatini
It seems countries like this could benefit massively from an effective vaccine
> Africa really needs to be the target rollout for these vaccines if and when they materialize.
I'm not sure why this is downvoted. Africa is the most affected continent of the HIV pandemic.
> Although the continent is home to about 15.2 percent of the world's population, more than two-thirds of the total infected worldwide – some 35 million people – were Africans, of whom 15 million have already died. Sub-Saharan Africa alone accounted for an estimated 69 percent of all people living with HIV and 70 percent of all AIDS deaths in 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa
I'm not sure why this is downvoted. Africa is the most affected continent of the HIV pandemic.
> Although the continent is home to about 15.2 percent of the world's population, more than two-thirds of the total infected worldwide – some 35 million people – were Africans, of whom 15 million have already died. Sub-Saharan Africa alone accounted for an estimated 69 percent of all people living with HIV and 70 percent of all AIDS deaths in 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa
qrbLPHiKpiux(5)
Dumb question: Isn't HIV a solved problem? With current anti-virals they can't even detect HIV in blood tests.
If you call requiring tens of thousands of dollars of maintenance medication treatment annually for life a solved problem, then absolutely!
This still requires treatment for life, though. A vaccine would obviate this need, freeing up time, resources, and money for other healthcare.
If there was a cost-effective cure, we could consider it solved. The only (functional) cure for it involves basically taking a sledgehammer to the entire immune system and replacing it with one from a donor with CCR-5 delta 32. As far as anyone's aware, this was only done with 2(?) patients who also had blood cancers.
Everyone else is popping antiviral cocktails and living with both the stigma of the disease and the risk of a relapse if they ever end up not being able to afford the drugs.
So... not quite solved. Hopefully this'll get us closer.
Everyone else is popping antiviral cocktails and living with both the stigma of the disease and the risk of a relapse if they ever end up not being able to afford the drugs.
So... not quite solved. Hopefully this'll get us closer.
No it isn't. The costly treatment can have heavy side effects... for the people who can afford it, i.e. not most of people who are infected in Africa...
Treatment is both expensive and taxing on the body, the drugs can cause renal problems and even renal failure. Multiple drugs need to be taken, they'll need to be switched up, and you'll need regular blood work to make sure that they aren't destroying your organs. You're going to need to see expensive specialists regularly for the rest of your life. You aren't going to only fill a prescription and take a pill and have that be the extent of your treatment.
There are several different and relatively large populations for whom complications can arise with treatment, like those with weakened immune systems, organ transplants, kidney disease, the elderly etc.
If you're wealthy and in otherwise good health, then yes, HIV is a relatively solved problem for you.
There are several different and relatively large populations for whom complications can arise with treatment, like those with weakened immune systems, organ transplants, kidney disease, the elderly etc.
If you're wealthy and in otherwise good health, then yes, HIV is a relatively solved problem for you.
I'll answer the question to the best of what I know. It appears that there wasn't a problem to start with. Luc Montagnier, one of the co-discoverers of the AIDS virus for which he got the noble prize, is on record saying that it is a benign virus and in Africa at least is related to malnutrition. So unless the video is doctored one can take his word to be gospel. He is a heretic, btw.
Then there is Kary Mullis a noble prize winner (in chemistry) and the developer of the PCR test, who on investigation could not find any paper which indicated that the AIDS virus has been isolated, hence concluded that it's not proven that HIV causes AIDS ( or something to that effect).
If you cannot find the relevant videos on you tube search bitchute.
Then there is Kary Mullis a noble prize winner (in chemistry) and the developer of the PCR test, who on investigation could not find any paper which indicated that the AIDS virus has been isolated, hence concluded that it's not proven that HIV causes AIDS ( or something to that effect).
If you cannot find the relevant videos on you tube search bitchute.
stunt(2)
Does this require everyone to get it?
I presume it would only be recommended for those who are sexually active (particularly homosexuals like me) and those who regularly use needles.
Many who are 'sexually active' are also unwillingly so. By that criteria, it would be best to recommended it to all women and all prisoners in the United States, due to how common rape is among those populations here. I'd like to say "we are better as a society" but that's not true yet, and in the meantime, at least I won't have to worry about AIDS when it's my turn to be raped.
I feel confident enough that I don't have to look this up, but I might be wrong. Most women in the US surely aren't raped right? Not even 0.1% of women in the US get raped no? So I don't think you need to forcibly vaccinate people because of any rape risks.
Most people who are sexually active are voluntary so, so let's just assume people are not talking about sexual assault when talking about an active sex life.
Most people who are sexually active are voluntary so, so let's just assume people are not talking about sexual assault when talking about an active sex life.
> Most women in the US surely aren't raped right? Not even 0.1% of women in the US get raped no?
You’re presumption is so bad it’s not even wrong.
> “Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration. [0]
[0] https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
You’re presumption is so bad it’s not even wrong.
> “Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration. [0]
[0] https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
[deleted]
> Most women in the US surely aren't raped right? Not even 0.1% of women in the US get raped no?
It's closer to 15%.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem
EDIT: Wow people really hate rape statistics.
It's closer to 15%.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem
EDIT: Wow people really hate rape statistics.
For the purposes of HIV, I would think that “attempted” is not very informative?
[deleted]
Irrelevant. If I successfully defend myself from a rape attempt by biting the attacker, that will be recorded as "attempted", and yet I will still be exposed to the risk of HIV infection.
I guess that’s the question: does “attempted rape” really expose one to risk of HIV infection? What fraction of attempted rape victims go on to contract HIV compared to those who were actually raped? What gets counted as “attempted rape”? If the victim escapes before anyone’s clothes are off, does that get recorded as attempted rape? Presumably in that scenario omens risk of contracting HIV isn’t meaningfully increased?
If the rapist spits on them, maybe. If the person being raped bites them in self-defense, maybe. If the rapist is wounded and bleeds on them (and others!), maybe. The statistic you seek is "unsuccessful rape attempts that did not result in fluid transfer risk to the person being raped, bystanders, or emergency responders". If you are able to find it, feel free to link it here. I suspect you will find that no such data is collected.
Fortunately, this is irrelevant. Given the severity of HIV, the full 18% figure can be safely taken at face value, for society-level disease prevention purposes. HIV is both expensive and deadly and vaccination is cheap.
Fortunately, this is irrelevant. Given the severity of HIV, the full 18% figure can be safely taken at face value, for society-level disease prevention purposes. HIV is both expensive and deadly and vaccination is cheap.
So basically, if someone gets raped and gets HIV we can just blame them for not fighting back enough?
If that is the question, it's based on some abhorrent moral assumptions.
If that is the question, it's based on some abhorrent moral assumptions.
The “almost 15%” referred to the 14.8% experiencing “completed” rape, not the additional 2.8% experiencing only “attempted” rape.
If you look up the history of the HPV vaccine and how a subset of the United States decided that it wasn't acceptable to protect women from cervical cancer because 'reasons', you can start to get a sense of the kind of uphill battle an HIV vaccine will face. It's hard enough to explain to parents that it doesn't matter if their kid is sexually active for HPV, imagine how much worse it's going to be when they add "10% of girls will be raped before they turn 18" to the mix.
So rape ends up being epidemiologically-relevant to STD vaccines, but there's a lot of folks who would rather not confront that — even here on HN.
So rape ends up being epidemiologically-relevant to STD vaccines, but there's a lot of folks who would rather not confront that — even here on HN.
[deleted]
As with any vaccine the ideal outcome is the general population is vaccinated and we develop a herd immunity. For a deadly disease like HIV spending the effort to eradicate the disease would be for the best, but like HPV vaccination there's a moral judgment tied to it that will prevent some people from accepting everyone should be vaccinated.
As a side note, it was ridiculous that it took so long for boys to start getting the HPV vaccine. If you're a public health person, even if your only concern is cancer in women, you still want to vaccinate boys to improve herd immunity. If you're a heterosexual man, even if you only care about cancer in women, you would like to have been vaccinated if you are a remotely decent person, because you don't want to give women cancer -- especially the women you have sex with, who, generally, are going to be people you care about. And additionally there are male health concerns related to HPV -- for heterosexuals, primarily oral cancer, and for homosexuals, possibly also anal cancer (these being generalizations, of course). These are nasty, lethal diseases. Surely they should be prevented as well? Given the multitude of common-sense reasons to do it, for the benefit of so many people, it was frustrating to watch it happen only with such a long delay.
Much of the opposition seemed to come from a vengeful kind of religious conservative who wants sex to have negative consequences. Those conservatives represent a familiar kind of evil.
Yet I suspect that some opposition also came from women who had a problem with protecting men's sexual health. This is a newer kind of evil, and even less sensible for women who are heterosexual, for the herd-immunity reasons I outlined in my first paragraph.
A more-widely-administered HPV vaccine was literally a win-win for everyone, gay and straight, female and male, and still it came about slowly and faced opposition. This made me despair of my fellow humans.
Much of the opposition seemed to come from a vengeful kind of religious conservative who wants sex to have negative consequences. Those conservatives represent a familiar kind of evil.
Yet I suspect that some opposition also came from women who had a problem with protecting men's sexual health. This is a newer kind of evil, and even less sensible for women who are heterosexual, for the herd-immunity reasons I outlined in my first paragraph.
A more-widely-administered HPV vaccine was literally a win-win for everyone, gay and straight, female and male, and still it came about slowly and faced opposition. This made me despair of my fellow humans.
You do know that anal or oral sex with/by/for males isn't tied to sexuality. Straight heterosexual couples can have anal sex.
How would a man catch sexually transmitted anal cancer from another person, if not through homosexual activity?
You're right, and I've added some defensive language, but please don't get distracted from the main point, which is that we had an opportunity to reduce the spread of a contagious cancer in people of all sexes, genders, and orientations, and yet we got into stupid fights instead of doing it quickly.
Don't religious people claim that limiting your sex activity to one single person is the best way to prevent diseases at large scale?
[obviously denying the frustration and alienation that goes with it]
What does "religious people" mean? ;-)
But sure, that works when people do it. Just like social distancing.
Relying on other people's good behavior at a large scale is a bad plan though.
Also not sure which number of partners brings the most frustration or alienation. One? Three? Zero? Each situation seems to bring its own problems. Life is suffering.
("One" is the best plan for most people, but it depends a lot on which one...)
But sure, that works when people do it. Just like social distancing.
Relying on other people's good behavior at a large scale is a bad plan though.
Also not sure which number of partners brings the most frustration or alienation. One? Three? Zero? Each situation seems to bring its own problems. Life is suffering.
("One" is the best plan for most people, but it depends a lot on which one...)
[flagged]
Bostonian(2)
[deleted]
HIV is sexually transmitted, so only sexually active people would be required to get a vaccine.
The high risk group is larger than that, though.
Wtf are you talking about?
Drug users are also high risk, as are any medical professionals that work around needles.
You left out transmission via blood.
The public health community learned a hard lesson from this mentality with the HPV vaccine. Many young girls did not get the vaccine because they (or their parents) insisted they were not and would not be sexually active. The CDC recommendations for who should get the vaccine (which controls whether insurance covers it and whether military members are eligible to receive it) expanded from young girls to all people under 27, then to all people under 45.
Regarding HIV, why not get vaccinated if you have easy access to it? What is the harm in being immune to HIV?
Regarding HIV, why not get vaccinated if you have easy access to it? What is the harm in being immune to HIV?
OP asks about what's required, not what makes sense. Everyone needs to be required to get vaccines like measles and Covid because the vaccine doesn't work on everyone so we need herd immunity to ensure safety. HIV does not require herd immunity in the same way as there is no way to get it if you are in a monogamous relationship/not sexually active and don't share needles. Therefore the vaccine isn't required to ensure the safety of everyone that desires it.
>...monogamous relationship/not sexually active...
This is the same mentality that was so tragically wrong and disproven by the data numerous times, no? Girls grow up and eventually have sex, right? Sex is a very human thing, and proclamations about monogamy or abstinence tend to be more religious/cultural signaling than reflections of people's actual behavior or the real need for people to get vaccinated.
This is the same mentality that was so tragically wrong and disproven by the data numerous times, no? Girls grow up and eventually have sex, right? Sex is a very human thing, and proclamations about monogamy or abstinence tend to be more religious/cultural signaling than reflections of people's actual behavior or the real need for people to get vaccinated.
> ...there is no way to get it if you are in a monogamous relationship...
People are frequently unfaithful without their partner's knowledge. Healthcare workers/Dentists are at an elevated risk of infection, and by association so are their partners. As are law enforcement, and their partners. If you routinely interact with the homeless professionally or as a volunteer, you're at an elevated risk.
People are frequently unfaithful without their partner's knowledge. Healthcare workers/Dentists are at an elevated risk of infection, and by association so are their partners. As are law enforcement, and their partners. If you routinely interact with the homeless professionally or as a volunteer, you're at an elevated risk.
I am confuse about the working of this vaccine? Anyone, who can make me understand about the working I would be thankful.
They developed a piece of mRNA that produces a specific type of blood protein that binds the HIV infection mechanism. The bound protein triggers your body’s antibody cascade to attack and neutralize it.
is that similar to what is being investigated for cancer ?
More or less. Insert mRNA instructions for creating or triggering antibodies that target cancer cells specifically.
It's really interesting stuff. One issue as I understand it is getting the immune reaction to be appropriate to develop antibodies without going crazy.
From TFA to set context: The vaccine is an immune primer, to trigger the activation of naive B cells via a process called germline-targeting, as the first stage in a multi-step vaccine regimen to elicit the production of many different types of broadly neutralizing antibodies (bnAbs). Stimulating the production of bnAbs has been pursued as a holy grail in HIV for decades.
That is, the vaccine triggers generation of bnAbs successfully, turning a "passive immunization" HIV/AIDS treatment in to "active immunization".
More on bnAbs:
> Antibodies are proteins that immune cells make to block viruses and other infectious agents. In the case of HIV, people who are infected typically produce antibodies to the virus. But because the virus mutates and replicates rapidly, antibodies are largely ineffective at controlling the virus. After years of infection, though, some people produce highly potent antibodies called broadly neutralizing antibodies (bnAbs) that, in laboratory tests, are able to neutralize a wide variety of HIV strains. The identification of such antibodies has transformed the field of HIV prevention research for two reasons: it provides information to guide the design of vaccines that could elicit bnAbs for protection, and it has opened the door to a new prevention modality: the administration of HIV bnAbs to prevent infection.
> The administration of antibodies to prevent infection is known as passive immunization, in contrast to active immunization, which occurs as a result of vaccination (see graphic, below). While a vaccine “trains” the immune system to generate antibodies and other immune responses, passive immunization requires that the antibodies be delivered directly into the body through infusions or injections. This protection is temporary, and, in the case of HIV prevention, would need to be administered periodically as long as the subject was still at risk.
From: https://www.iavi.org/our-science/bnabs-for-hiv-prevention
That is, the vaccine triggers generation of bnAbs successfully, turning a "passive immunization" HIV/AIDS treatment in to "active immunization".
More on bnAbs:
> Antibodies are proteins that immune cells make to block viruses and other infectious agents. In the case of HIV, people who are infected typically produce antibodies to the virus. But because the virus mutates and replicates rapidly, antibodies are largely ineffective at controlling the virus. After years of infection, though, some people produce highly potent antibodies called broadly neutralizing antibodies (bnAbs) that, in laboratory tests, are able to neutralize a wide variety of HIV strains. The identification of such antibodies has transformed the field of HIV prevention research for two reasons: it provides information to guide the design of vaccines that could elicit bnAbs for protection, and it has opened the door to a new prevention modality: the administration of HIV bnAbs to prevent infection.
> The administration of antibodies to prevent infection is known as passive immunization, in contrast to active immunization, which occurs as a result of vaccination (see graphic, below). While a vaccine “trains” the immune system to generate antibodies and other immune responses, passive immunization requires that the antibodies be delivered directly into the body through infusions or injections. This protection is temporary, and, in the case of HIV prevention, would need to be administered periodically as long as the subject was still at risk.
From: https://www.iavi.org/our-science/bnabs-for-hiv-prevention
[deleted]
I don't understand this well enough to fully know how this vaccine works.
But HIV integrates into the human genome so you can never really get rid of it. So I'm not sure exactly how this treatment would play out.
But HIV integrates into the human genome so you can never really get rid of it. So I'm not sure exactly how this treatment would play out.
You can keep it from spreading quickly within a person's body, and reduce the chances of transmission, if you can reduce the amount of viral particles that exist outside of host cells.
Seems like even vaccine mediated immune response takes time to ramp up and generate antibodies.
Especially from memory cells.
I don't know if that window of opportunity is sufficient for HIV to integrate into the host genome.
Especially from memory cells.
I don't know if that window of opportunity is sufficient for HIV to integrate into the host genome.
As I understand, this integration might happen but would be meaningless because viruses ejected from infected cells will subsequently be intercepted.
Depending on the immune response, infected cells can also be destroyed.
I meant vaccinating the person who already has the infection. Their own immune system will remove the virus particles before they can travel.
Vaccines trigger an immune response, preparing the body to fight of the infection. This allows the body to "beat" the infection before it takes hold.
Afaik vaccines are not useful after the fact. I.e. this HIV vaccine won't be given to people already infected.
Afaik vaccines are not useful after the fact. I.e. this HIV vaccine won't be given to people already infected.
Right but for a virus that integrates into the genome once it takes hold it's game over.
And even vaccine mediated immune responses are via memory cells and take time to ramp up to generate the antibodies to attack the virus.
So I guess my question is: Is the window of opportunity while ramping up the immune system for a vaccine big enough for HIV to take root in a body.
Does your knowledge stop at "Vaccine stop infection?" Isnt that just common knowledge?
And even vaccine mediated immune responses are via memory cells and take time to ramp up to generate the antibodies to attack the virus.
So I guess my question is: Is the window of opportunity while ramping up the immune system for a vaccine big enough for HIV to take root in a body.
Does your knowledge stop at "Vaccine stop infection?" Isnt that just common knowledge?
Like previously stated, HIV hides inside of cells for an indeterminate amount of time. As you mentioned immune memory can take a little bit of time to kick in. Once it kicks in however, it is extraordinarily effective at hunting down viruses and actively (non-dormant) infected cells. With a small enough viral load however, the immune system can fend off HIV well enough.
During an initial infection either the immune system will fight off the virus if the load is small enough and it gets lucky or the virus takes hold of some cells and starts reproducing. In this latter case, the immune memory allows the immune system to effectively fight off the virus before it can properly take hold. Of course some of the virus may lay dormant in a few cells but since it never gets a chance to take hold of the body the quantity of dormant infected cells is relatively low.
Now due to the low quantity of dormant infected cells, it is extremely unlikely that there will be enough "activated" cells at any given time that the immune system is not able to handle the threat before it escalates. Over time you can expect the dormant HIV to slowly be exterminated or at very least prevented from growing in count.
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Now this isn't anything terribly new. The real breakthrough with this vaccine over other attempts in the past is that it results in the production of a specific type of antibody that can act on all known HIV strains with essentially the same efficacy (where as prior vaccines couldn't result in the production of antibodies that worked reliably on even small portions of the thousands of different HIV strains).
During an initial infection either the immune system will fight off the virus if the load is small enough and it gets lucky or the virus takes hold of some cells and starts reproducing. In this latter case, the immune memory allows the immune system to effectively fight off the virus before it can properly take hold. Of course some of the virus may lay dormant in a few cells but since it never gets a chance to take hold of the body the quantity of dormant infected cells is relatively low.
Now due to the low quantity of dormant infected cells, it is extremely unlikely that there will be enough "activated" cells at any given time that the immune system is not able to handle the threat before it escalates. Over time you can expect the dormant HIV to slowly be exterminated or at very least prevented from growing in count.
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Now this isn't anything terribly new. The real breakthrough with this vaccine over other attempts in the past is that it results in the production of a specific type of antibody that can act on all known HIV strains with essentially the same efficacy (where as prior vaccines couldn't result in the production of antibodies that worked reliably on even small portions of the thousands of different HIV strains).
>Right but for a virus that integrates into the genome once it takes hold it's game over.
The same could be said about any other successful vaccine, like Polio and Measles vaccines. Not that those diseases behave like HIV, but the way we handle vaccination against them.
>And even vaccine mediated immune responses are via memory cells and take time to ramp up to generate the antibodies to attack the virus.
That's why there are vaccination campaigns, to immunize target groups before they contract the aforementioned sickness.
>Is the window of opportunity while ramping up the immune system for a vaccine I mean unresponse big enough for HIV to take root in a body.
A vaccine is always a good opportunity to prevent adverse effects, even "if takes time" to ramp up your immune system.
The same could be said about any other successful vaccine, like Polio and Measles vaccines. Not that those diseases behave like HIV, but the way we handle vaccination against them.
>And even vaccine mediated immune responses are via memory cells and take time to ramp up to generate the antibodies to attack the virus.
That's why there are vaccination campaigns, to immunize target groups before they contract the aforementioned sickness.
>Is the window of opportunity while ramping up the immune system for a vaccine I mean unresponse big enough for HIV to take root in a body.
A vaccine is always a good opportunity to prevent adverse effects, even "if takes time" to ramp up your immune system.
olliej(5)
We've been down this path before with vaccines. Often what seems promising early on doesn't pan out long-term.
This is why clinical trials are so lengthy. You have to operate at the time-constants of biology and the human body rather than political or business time-constants. The former are far longer than the latter.
BTW if you get a COVID vaccine right now, you are literally a clinical trial subject/participant. COVID vaccine clinical trials do not end until 2023 in the US based on FDA documents.
This is why clinical trials are so lengthy. You have to operate at the time-constants of biology and the human body rather than political or business time-constants. The former are far longer than the latter.
BTW if you get a COVID vaccine right now, you are literally a clinical trial subject/participant. COVID vaccine clinical trials do not end until 2023 in the US based on FDA documents.
List all the vaccines with negative long term side effects that don't appear within 4+ months.
Clinical trials for vaccines take a while because we don't intentionally infect people and it takes a long time for the test population to naturally catch whatever it is.
They went fast for COVID because it's a pandemic and everyone was getting it.
They went fast for COVID because it's a pandemic and everyone was getting it.
As far as I can tell, what's going on here is that there are multiple stages of antibody development. People have circulating B cells, and these cells have their genomes modified by the the VD(J) recombination process [0] from the genome in the human germline (i.e. what your germline cells and most of the non-B cells in your body have). There are a large number, but nowhere near infinite number, of B cells and corresponding antibodies that can be produced in this process, and I think these are what the authors call "germline" cells.
Once a naive B cell decides that it encodes a useful antibody (which is a complicated process), it starts to divide. Some of the daughter cells further mutate in a process called affinity maturation [1] to produce what are hopefully even better antibodies.
I think that the idea behind this research is that there are certain antibodies that can be produced by affinity maturation that are very useful against HIV, but that the "germline" B cells that lead to these antibodies are not particularly likely to be selected by the immune system when exposed to natural HIV antigens. Instead, the researchers have developed customized antigens intended to target specific germline cells which are known to be able to mature into cells that can produce the desired antibodies. If this works, the next step would be a series of additional vaccines (which are not the same as dose 1) that will try to encourage maturation into the useful antibodies.
The takeaway is that this result is very promising and that there is (so far?) no reason to expect the trial participants to be immune to HIV.
For the ML crowd, another way to think about this is that, when your body is exposed to an antigen, it runs a massively parallel search algorithm to find good antibodies in a truly massive space of possible antibodies. Unfortunately, most people, when exposed to real HIV or to prior vaccine attempts, get stuck in a bunch of not-fantastic local minima. The idea is to specifically aim the search in the right direction so, after a few rounds, it can find a better solution.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V(D)J_recombination
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_maturation