Laptop Review: ThinkPad X1 Extreme (Gen 2)(michael.stapelberg.ch)
michael.stapelberg.ch
Laptop Review: ThinkPad X1 Extreme (Gen 2)
https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2021-06-05-laptop-review-lenovo-thinkpad-x1-extreme-gen2/
46 comments
I had hoped that after many years of laptops containing Intel/nVidia hybrid graphics, this setup would largely work, but was disappointed.
Both the proprietary nVidia driver and the nouveau driver would not work reliably for me. I ran into kernel error messages and hard-freezes, with even SSH sessions to the machine breaking.
Nvidia GPUs are still the number one problem. Buying anything with Nvidia in it is a waste of money. Closed source binary drivers that only work sometimes is acceptable for gamers but not if you want a reliable, controlled machine.
Both the proprietary nVidia driver and the nouveau driver would not work reliably for me. I ran into kernel error messages and hard-freezes, with even SSH sessions to the machine breaking.
Nvidia GPUs are still the number one problem. Buying anything with Nvidia in it is a waste of money. Closed source binary drivers that only work sometimes is acceptable for gamers but not if you want a reliable, controlled machine.
The RTX 3060 in my machine is working well under Windows and Linux. It's a bit tricky to set up, but it's been super stable for me, with no crashes in the past few months.
Talk to me when decent laptops with AMD dedicated and/or APU graphics and >1080p IPS displays exist.
Except they already do. Also, AMD announced SmartShift ("shifts power inside your laptop for the optimal performance for a given task") support for Linux a couple of days ago. They're more than usable nowadays.
Probably a popular opinion here, but any display with a higher res than 1440p (1600p if it's a 16:10 display) is a waste on a laptop. I'd rather have a 1080p one over a 4K one, personally.
Probably a popular opinion here, but any display with a higher res than 1440p (1600p if it's a 16:10 display) is a waste on a laptop. I'd rather have a 1080p one over a 4K one, personally.
> Except they already do. Also, AMD announced SmartShift ("shifts power inside your laptop for the optimal performance for a given task") support for Linux a couple of days ago. They're more than usable nowadays.
Interesting, thanks!
> Probably a popular opinion here, but any display with a higher res than 1440p (1600p if it's a 16:10 display) is a waste on a laptop. I'd rather have a 1080p one over a 4K one, personally.
I don't disagree that 4k is a little nuts on a ~15" laptop LCD, but it seems until recently you're options for decent >1080p displays on laptops for the most part were a) Macbooks (2880x1800 at 15.4"), and b) 4k PC laptops
Interesting, thanks!
> Probably a popular opinion here, but any display with a higher res than 1440p (1600p if it's a 16:10 display) is a waste on a laptop. I'd rather have a 1080p one over a 4K one, personally.
I don't disagree that 4k is a little nuts on a ~15" laptop LCD, but it seems until recently you're options for decent >1080p displays on laptops for the most part were a) Macbooks (2880x1800 at 15.4"), and b) 4k PC laptops
It misses your >1080p mark, but the DELL G5 SE is a budget workhorse with a remarkably good screen (once calibrated).
Zen 2 6/8 core, RX5600, and uses AMDs shiftable power budget. Dual SSD slots as well.
It’s a plastic fantastic for sure, but at the $800 I paid 6 months ago it’s been a great machine.
Zen 2 6/8 core, RX5600, and uses AMDs shiftable power budget. Dual SSD slots as well.
It’s a plastic fantastic for sure, but at the $800 I paid 6 months ago it’s been a great machine.
Setting up Optimus is quite the miserable experience, and nouveau being pretty much useless is exasperating. I just gave up and "disabled" the discrete GPU on my thinkpad, as intel's iGPUs are good enough for all daily tasks and more.
> Nvidia GPUs are still the number one problem. Buying anything with Nvidia in it is a waste of money. Closed source binary drivers that only work sometimes is acceptable for gamers but not if you want a reliable, controlled machine.
No it's not a hardware problem, it's a pure software / platform problem. The experience is phantastic on Windows. The reason why I went with Windows 10 base and Linux VM & WSL2 (which is pretty seamless) instead of vv is that I did not want to spend time caring about Optimus, PRIME and having to consider the dGPU/iGPU mux topology in order to get my hardware to work correctly.
No it's not a hardware problem, it's a pure software / platform problem. The experience is phantastic on Windows. The reason why I went with Windows 10 base and Linux VM & WSL2 (which is pretty seamless) instead of vv is that I did not want to spend time caring about Optimus, PRIME and having to consider the dGPU/iGPU mux topology in order to get my hardware to work correctly.
Choosing a dev laptop right now is very difficult.
On one hand, you have Apple silicon MacBooks redefining efficiency.
On the other hand, XPSs/Inspirons/Thinkpads have caught up a lot in what used to differentiate MacBooks: The linux emulation on Windows is suitable for unix-like development, desktop linux is better than it's ever been, AMD is selling laptop CPUs that have 8 physical cores (with hyperthreading), 4k displays are available on basically every model, large trackpads are everywhere, Lenovo has a model out with a haptic (read: mac-like) trackpad, it's all very competitive.
On one hand, you have Apple silicon MacBooks redefining efficiency.
On the other hand, XPSs/Inspirons/Thinkpads have caught up a lot in what used to differentiate MacBooks: The linux emulation on Windows is suitable for unix-like development, desktop linux is better than it's ever been, AMD is selling laptop CPUs that have 8 physical cores (with hyperthreading), 4k displays are available on basically every model, large trackpads are everywhere, Lenovo has a model out with a haptic (read: mac-like) trackpad, it's all very competitive.
Honestly, I just spent about a year on MacOS because of the hardware. That time also includes an M1 Macbook.
Frankly, now that there are so many high quality, thermally-suitable ultrabooks,I'm done, I don't care if the M1 blows everything out of the water as long as some Evo-class ultrabook can do the same to the older laptops I had - because MacOS and homebrew fucking suck. The file system organization sucks too, and not all programs ported to unix/MacOS with as well as standard linux. (or install as cleanly as with apt-get and an isolated environment in file explorer on WSL2).
I understand buying a Macbook for the internal hardware prowess (there is no perfornance per watt competition for the M1), QC, screen resolution, but fuck, the important hardware shit is 80% as good [edit: not really but this is also use case dependent] if not better on Windows laptops by now, and arguably the most important variable - software - is miles ahead with WSL2/Ubuntu/bash/apt-get/GNU tools vs MacOS/zsh/brew etc.
I'd grant IO and some web development on MacOS is still going to be more productive, but from where I'm standing the platform choice is one without hesitation.
Totally do agree on hardware writ large though, still haven't figured out what Windows system i'm going to grab, for that exact reason.
Frankly, now that there are so many high quality, thermally-suitable ultrabooks,I'm done, I don't care if the M1 blows everything out of the water as long as some Evo-class ultrabook can do the same to the older laptops I had - because MacOS and homebrew fucking suck. The file system organization sucks too, and not all programs ported to unix/MacOS with as well as standard linux. (or install as cleanly as with apt-get and an isolated environment in file explorer on WSL2).
I understand buying a Macbook for the internal hardware prowess (there is no perfornance per watt competition for the M1), QC, screen resolution, but fuck, the important hardware shit is 80% as good [edit: not really but this is also use case dependent] if not better on Windows laptops by now, and arguably the most important variable - software - is miles ahead with WSL2/Ubuntu/bash/apt-get/GNU tools vs MacOS/zsh/brew etc.
I'd grant IO and some web development on MacOS is still going to be more productive, but from where I'm standing the platform choice is one without hesitation.
Totally do agree on hardware writ large though, still haven't figured out what Windows system i'm going to grab, for that exact reason.
I'm not really in the market for a laptop, but I do look a bit from time to time, and what I've found is that even though AMD starts showing up, sometimes even with current gen CPUs (I think? I've seen Ryzen 5500s), I haven't seen one yet with a 4k screen. The best I've seen was some gaming Lenovo at 2560x1440.
I really wish I could have Apple hardware without Apple software...
Mostly just chip/memory wise tho, their outer design is jewlrey
I prefer plastic components much of the time in electronics. CNC aluminum - sorry, aluminium, and glass are really overutilized.
I prefer plastic components much of the time in electronics. CNC aluminum - sorry, aluminium, and glass are really overutilized.
Feels like laptops are just crap these days. I'm on a Macbook Pro and hate it. The unergonomic keyboard sux, the software is broken and I am disempowered to fix it, and there is no way reliably get modern builds of open source projects I care about. In short it was a false economy. I had a Dell with Gentoo before this, recently reinvigorated under Ubuntu but despite only being a few years old the CMOS battery is so crap it loses BIOS config regularly and has to be tediously reconfigured to get boot functioning.
Does anyone feel it makes more sense to buy an embedded system and lug it around instead from now on? There are spare screens everywhere, they cost nothing, and it seems the laptop form factor is just overpriced, underpowered, unmaintainable/unupgradeable for the money. Should be trivial to build a decent keyboard, optional portable screen and power pack in to a backpack in lieu of a traditional case.
Does anyone feel it makes more sense to buy an embedded system and lug it around instead from now on? There are spare screens everywhere, they cost nothing, and it seems the laptop form factor is just overpriced, underpowered, unmaintainable/unupgradeable for the money. Should be trivial to build a decent keyboard, optional portable screen and power pack in to a backpack in lieu of a traditional case.
They basically have those. For example the NexDock. It's basically a laptop with no guts designed to be driven by USB C smartphone, probably could work with anything really.
I hate my MBP too.
I hate my MBP too.
I'm starting to dislike laptops as well. Once you get used to a nice mechanical keyboard, especially one with an ergonomic layout, laptop keyboards feel like a joke. I wonder why they won't try to innovate there. Only the MNT Reform comes to mind, and its keyboard is still not my ideal layout. Some way to keep a high end keyboard I acquired myself attached to a portable machine would be nice. Maybe just a custom case around a modern SBC with a portable screen slapped on. Like one of those cyberdeck builds, but in the clamshell form factor.
I also use a docked laptop as my main machine with peripherals attached, but then the thermal situation is pretty bad because laptops so often seem to run very hot. I think I'd be okay with an increase in size and weight to sort out some of these problems.
I also use a docked laptop as my main machine with peripherals attached, but then the thermal situation is pretty bad because laptops so often seem to run very hot. I think I'd be okay with an increase in size and weight to sort out some of these problems.
> Does anyone feel it makes more sense to buy an embedded system and lug it around instead from now on?
Not embedded, but I was actually toying with the idea of buying or building a smallish x86 computer that I'd lug around.
The idea came to me when we started getting EliteDesk minis at work, which are basically the size of a book.
Now, those are fairly nice on paper, and at the time were one of the limited options of PCs available with thunderbolt, so I got one for myself. The honeymoon didn't last long, as the components are custom designed and some are downright cheap, like the CPU fan, which emits a constant, unbearable whir, but I can't replace the heatsink with a custom one (it only uses three screws, none of which are in the standard locations). Also, the thunderbolt doesn't work reliably either, so all in all I wouldn't recommend.
But the idea of actually being able to grab a desktop in my bag stuck with me. As I wouldn't be doing that all dat every day, I figured I could get a bigger one, with the limit being "fit in a backpack".
However, for the time being, I only move between my apartment and my parents' house, and having a fixed desktop at each location works well enough.
Not embedded, but I was actually toying with the idea of buying or building a smallish x86 computer that I'd lug around.
The idea came to me when we started getting EliteDesk minis at work, which are basically the size of a book.
Now, those are fairly nice on paper, and at the time were one of the limited options of PCs available with thunderbolt, so I got one for myself. The honeymoon didn't last long, as the components are custom designed and some are downright cheap, like the CPU fan, which emits a constant, unbearable whir, but I can't replace the heatsink with a custom one (it only uses three screws, none of which are in the standard locations). Also, the thunderbolt doesn't work reliably either, so all in all I wouldn't recommend.
But the idea of actually being able to grab a desktop in my bag stuck with me. As I wouldn't be doing that all dat every day, I figured I could get a bigger one, with the limit being "fit in a backpack".
However, for the time being, I only move between my apartment and my parents' house, and having a fixed desktop at each location works well enough.
Have you investigated whether you can replace the CMOS battery? It may be a worthwhile activity if it enables you to power off and power on the laptop as and when you need to.
Have a cupboard full of disparate coin format batteries, it's just 10 minutes I won't make back in reboot-BIOS-twiddling. Repairing a different Dell XPS right now, boots to BSOD. Gonna Linux it and VM the dozeness.
In the last 18mths I've had work issued 2019 Macbook Pros and 2020 Macbook Pros and they both suck as developer machines for my workloads (docker and intellij).
Absurdly hot running under load, the frequent point releases for OSX, 3.4-3.7GB and 30-40 minutes of time unless I do it out of hours - the trainwreck that was Big Sur and virtualisation.
I'm fortunate in that while I have work issued machines I don't have to use them *for work and can instead use my nice desktop but damn if I had to work on those machines I'd lose the plot (as other members of my team frequently seem to at various times).
Absurdly hot running under load, the frequent point releases for OSX, 3.4-3.7GB and 30-40 minutes of time unless I do it out of hours - the trainwreck that was Big Sur and virtualisation.
I'm fortunate in that while I have work issued machines I don't have to use them *for work and can instead use my nice desktop but damn if I had to work on those machines I'd lose the plot (as other members of my team frequently seem to at various times).
> Performance-wise, this machine can almost replace a proper workstation.
This guy has never seen a real workstation.
Real workstation (from vendors like Lenovo, HP and Dell) usually come with Xeon-class processors (multiple, often two of them) and a shitload of ram (sometimes terabytes). And multiple disks.
Example: the HP z-series workstation and the ThinkStation series from Lenovo.
An "enthusiast"-class gaming pc is not a workstation.
This guy has never seen a real workstation.
Real workstation (from vendors like Lenovo, HP and Dell) usually come with Xeon-class processors (multiple, often two of them) and a shitload of ram (sometimes terabytes). And multiple disks.
Example: the HP z-series workstation and the ThinkStation series from Lenovo.
An "enthusiast"-class gaming pc is not a workstation.
You don't even need a "real workstation". A desktop with a 5 year old (heck, probably even 10 year old) CPU will beat the snot out of any mobile x86 CPU. Intel stagnated mobile performance for a long time, favoring terrible performance over battery life. Maybe the M1 can finally propel the laptop market back on track so we can actually get pro devices which rival desktops.
wow, it must be nice to belong to .0000001%.
For applications such as CAD, Video and Sound Editing, and other computationally and memory inventive applications, workstations are indeed a class apart from desktops. For e.g., the disks are rated for high throughput, the RAM is ECC, the CPUs have higher L2/L3 cache.
The Video cards and drivers are also often tuned for the use case.
Such workstations are not the same as desktops used for gaming, everyday use, or even programming.
The Video cards and drivers are also often tuned for the use case.
Such workstations are not the same as desktops used for gaming, everyday use, or even programming.
Yup, it must be really nice.
I wouldn't know though.
What I can guess thought, is that at the end of the day, all work is work. You'd probably get bored of work even if you could work on a 1 petabyte ram workstation (that doesn't exist at the moment, afaik).
I wouldn't know though.
What I can guess thought, is that at the end of the day, all work is work. You'd probably get bored of work even if you could work on a 1 petabyte ram workstation (that doesn't exist at the moment, afaik).
I've had 3 x1 extremes and I just can't do it anymore. A major drawback is declining build quality. When you couple that with Lenovo's 3 week turnaround on hardware repairs, it's painful. Don't get fooled by specs, they only tell half the story.
For Toronto, Canada, Lenovo offers a support option where it can assign a repair technician to fix your computer at your office or residence (avoiding the potentially weeks-long wait with shipping).
Unfortunately, when I tried to use the service, my appointment was cancelled due to restrictions in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic. In the end, I replaced the laptop with an X1 Extreme Gen 2. That, too, unfortunately stopped working some months later as one of the fans no longer worked (I believe it was my error, for letting it spin too quickly when blowing the fans out, after usage in a dusty environment).
To avoid the downtime of shipping out the laptop, I repaired the fans myself, following instructions from iFixit, with replacement parts ordered from AliExpress. (In the meantime, I used Throttlestop to run the laptop with slow speeds, but operational.) I also took the opportunity to replace the display with a 144 Hz version (making it almost unique, as few workstation laptops now sell with high refresh-rate screens), also from AliExpress.
It worked, though I was lucky as the laptop could still function as I waited for the parts to arrive. I’m happy with the laptop now, though I only attempted the self-repair versus requesting a technician due to COVID-19 restrictions.
Unfortunately, when I tried to use the service, my appointment was cancelled due to restrictions in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic. In the end, I replaced the laptop with an X1 Extreme Gen 2. That, too, unfortunately stopped working some months later as one of the fans no longer worked (I believe it was my error, for letting it spin too quickly when blowing the fans out, after usage in a dusty environment).
To avoid the downtime of shipping out the laptop, I repaired the fans myself, following instructions from iFixit, with replacement parts ordered from AliExpress. (In the meantime, I used Throttlestop to run the laptop with slow speeds, but operational.) I also took the opportunity to replace the display with a 144 Hz version (making it almost unique, as few workstation laptops now sell with high refresh-rate screens), also from AliExpress.
It worked, though I was lucky as the laptop could still function as I waited for the parts to arrive. I’m happy with the laptop now, though I only attempted the self-repair versus requesting a technician due to COVID-19 restrictions.
>Lenovo’s 3 week turnaround on hardware repairs
Usually I’ve had the repair guy show up within 72 hours of me creating a ticket. 3 weeks is really odd where are you located?
Usually I’ve had the repair guy show up within 72 hours of me creating a ticket. 3 weeks is really odd where are you located?
This is a review of linux on the laptop, as the problems of graphic, TouchPad and battery are from OS side more than h/w
In my Gen 1, I found that the graphics processor and cpu couldn't sustain even a medium usage because of cooling. Diagnostics showed near constant throttling. Is this one any better?
This seems to be a bit of a trend with Lenovo. My gen 1 T14s (Ryzen 7 4750u) has a similar issue with heat, I can offer one suggestion, replace the thermal paste. I did it a week after I got mine as well as smoothing the oddly rough surface of the heatsink. Got a 5c drop, still throttles but less quickly.
In addition to replacing the thermal paste, I was able to lower the temperature of my X1 Extreme Gen 2 to about 40-60 degrees most of the day by:
i) Undervolting by installing Throttlestop, and setting it to launch on startup with Windows’s Task Scheduler [0]
ii) Removing the back panel, holding the fans in place with a paperclip, and blowing the dust out of the fans with an air compressor
I also installed Thinkpad Fan Controller (tpfancontrol) [1] to make the laptop run quieter. After implementing these, the laptop finally ‘just works.’ None of the above was intuitive, though, and I did not expect to find and try these solutions before purchasing the laptop.
[0] https://www.repairwin.com/how-to-start-throttlestop-at-windo...
[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/tp4xfancontrol/
i) Undervolting by installing Throttlestop, and setting it to launch on startup with Windows’s Task Scheduler [0]
ii) Removing the back panel, holding the fans in place with a paperclip, and blowing the dust out of the fans with an air compressor
I also installed Thinkpad Fan Controller (tpfancontrol) [1] to make the laptop run quieter. After implementing these, the laptop finally ‘just works.’ None of the above was intuitive, though, and I did not expect to find and try these solutions before purchasing the laptop.
[0] https://www.repairwin.com/how-to-start-throttlestop-at-windo...
[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/tp4xfancontrol/
Kinda saddened by the fact that tpfancontrol is still a must have in 2021. I believe it became mandatory for me when I upgraded my old W520 from win7 to 10, as the newer OS didn't properly manage fan speeds (the minimum speed was way too high, the maximum speed was never triggered).
I haven't used windows on that laptop in years (and it doesn't get much use anymore, although it still works flawlessly!), reckoned they'd have fixed this by now.
I haven't used windows on that laptop in years (and it doesn't get much use anymore, although it still works flawlessly!), reckoned they'd have fixed this by now.
Appreciate the tips
Unfortunately, for newer Intel CPUs, undervolting is no longer an option due to Plundervolt mitigations.
This continues. Try to run multiple monitors and you'll melt your DIMMs.
> Unfortunately, while the keyboard is great, I can’t say the same about the touchpad.
I'm sure he has read https://bill.harding.blog/2018/01/07/linux-with-a-macbook-to..., although he provides a link to the newest approach by Bill to restructure some of the drivers... I think the 2018 config is already a big improvement.
> an annoyingly loud fan that spins up too frequently
https://github.com/hirschmann/nbfc enables you to control your notebook fan. You can also create your own XML config.
I'm sure he has read https://bill.harding.blog/2018/01/07/linux-with-a-macbook-to..., although he provides a link to the newest approach by Bill to restructure some of the drivers... I think the 2018 config is already a big improvement.
> an annoyingly loud fan that spins up too frequently
https://github.com/hirschmann/nbfc enables you to control your notebook fan. You can also create your own XML config.
I have one of these for work and I echo the issues with fan sound and battery life. I've also had some frustrating problems with sleep and hibernation (on Windows) that I'm not sure how to resolve, but they may be related to proprietary apps and so on that I can't go into details on.
Overall, it's a fine machine, it does what I need it to, but I would not buy one for myself.
Overall, it's a fine machine, it does what I need it to, but I would not buy one for myself.
I have a gen1 and noticed a dramatic improvement in heat and fan noise after undervolting and repasting (may be unneeded) by about -150mv iirc. This is on Fedora but it may help in Windows too.
Dual video with Optimus manager works quite well. You can't truly shut off the Nvidia card from what I understand but switching between Intel/hybrid/Nvidia still yields decent battery life and performance optimizations.
Although it requires the Nvidia drivers and blacklisting nouvea driver still. And I hate relying on Nvidia drivers for anything Linux personally.
Although it requires the Nvidia drivers and blacklisting nouvea driver still. And I hate relying on Nvidia drivers for anything Linux personally.
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When are they going to make one of these with a Ryzen?
It seems Ryzens are really rare among higher end developer laptops. Is there a technical reason or is it just Intel using their clout to block the major vendors/oems from using AMD?
It seems Ryzens are really rare among higher end developer laptops. Is there a technical reason or is it just Intel using their clout to block the major vendors/oems from using AMD?
Yes, Intel had an OEM network few people in the West know about called something like "Intel preferred partner."
The Gen 3 has been out for a long time...
I recently replaced the 1080p display panel on my T490 with a 2560x1440 model with no issues whatsoever.
[1] https://support.lenovo.com/au/en/partslookup