Reddit communities ‘go dark’ in protest over Covid misinformation(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Reddit communities ‘go dark’ in protest over Covid misinformation
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/01/reddit-communities-go-dark-in-protest-over-covid-misinformation
27 comments
In the old days we used to go dark to protest censorship. Now Reddit goes dark to demand censorship.
That's fucked.
That's fucked.
In most cases, the information being censored is harmless or useful. Censorship of this sort is unjustifiable.
In this case, what is being censored is information that leads directly, or almost-directly, to unnecessary deaths. Non-censorship of such speech is ethically unjustifiable to me.
In this case, what is being censored is information that leads directly, or almost-directly, to unnecessary deaths. Non-censorship of such speech is ethically unjustifiable to me.
Worse enough that many journalists have this opinion today, although I can understand that given their dire financial situation. But opinions like this are indicative of a severe lack of literacy.
What leads to death is a reactionary movement against vaccination and medical advice. A reaction that is actually healthy, because it is directed against censorship. Censorship some bad actors try to enforce. Any mod on reddit that took part here should be quite ashamed.
What leads to death is a reactionary movement against vaccination and medical advice. A reaction that is actually healthy, because it is directed against censorship. Censorship some bad actors try to enforce. Any mod on reddit that took part here should be quite ashamed.
When will people understand that what’s wrong with censorship isn’t what information is or isn’t being censored, it’s the act itself.
It would just be better if people like you just admitted you don’t believe in free speech. It’s a philosophical argument that just goes over your heads.
It would just be better if people like you just admitted you don’t believe in free speech. It’s a philosophical argument that just goes over your heads.
> It would just be better if people like you just admitted you don’t believe in free speech.
It would be better if people like you could realise you have no idea what free speech is.
Free speech is not free from the consequences of said speech.
If a private site feels that your words are not warranted, they're free to turn you away.
Nobody owes you a platform to say whatever you want without any responsibility due whatsoever.
Is it censorship to arrest someone for falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater? No. It isn't.
Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/
It would be better if people like you could realise you have no idea what free speech is.
Free speech is not free from the consequences of said speech.
If a private site feels that your words are not warranted, they're free to turn you away.
Nobody owes you a platform to say whatever you want without any responsibility due whatsoever.
Is it censorship to arrest someone for falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater? No. It isn't.
Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/
I love XKCD but it is (slightly) wrong here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
First sentence:
"Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction."
Emphasis on principle, not on law.
There are certainly much better XKCD than this one but it isn't wrong when it describes behavior of communities. It isn't wrong when it declares the irrelevance of the first amendment of the US.
But where you are wrong is that you support free speech. You are more focused on the consequences for the people whose uttering you dislike. It is intellectual weakness if you are afraid to face opposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
First sentence:
"Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction."
Emphasis on principle, not on law.
There are certainly much better XKCD than this one but it isn't wrong when it describes behavior of communities. It isn't wrong when it declares the irrelevance of the first amendment of the US.
But where you are wrong is that you support free speech. You are more focused on the consequences for the people whose uttering you dislike. It is intellectual weakness if you are afraid to face opposition.
Be careful not to leave out the RELEVANT portions.
> Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury.
Freedom of speech has never been absolute and never been without consequence.
I have the right to tell you to get out of my house, you do not have the right to force me to listen to you.
> Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury.
Freedom of speech has never been absolute and never been without consequence.
I have the right to tell you to get out of my house, you do not have the right to force me to listen to you.
These aren't the relevant portions, these are the portions that curtail the freedom. And I agree that there are sensible ones and not sensible ones. Lying is also free speech and I don't like it. Obscenity is extremely subjective.
But that doesn't matter because you said:
> "Free speech is not free from the consequences of said speech."
That is a contradiction to the principle of free speech and you are just moving the goalpost here.
> I have the right to tell you to get out of my house
Of course you have, my speech would not be limited by that. It is also correct that a platform can ban anyone without even stating any reason. If they do that they just plainly don't adhere to the principle of freedom of speech. There is also freedom of association. Also a very important right. I don't have to justify with whom I association in the best case. Doesn't matter if that is ignored all too often in reality.
In case of reddit it is certainly false advertising because they advocated freedom of speech for the longest time. They don't anymore, but they don't get to claim that they still do in that case.
But that doesn't matter because you said:
> "Free speech is not free from the consequences of said speech."
That is a contradiction to the principle of free speech and you are just moving the goalpost here.
> I have the right to tell you to get out of my house
Of course you have, my speech would not be limited by that. It is also correct that a platform can ban anyone without even stating any reason. If they do that they just plainly don't adhere to the principle of freedom of speech. There is also freedom of association. Also a very important right. I don't have to justify with whom I association in the best case. Doesn't matter if that is ignored all too often in reality.
In case of reddit it is certainly false advertising because they advocated freedom of speech for the longest time. They don't anymore, but they don't get to claim that they still do in that case.
"Shouting fire in a a crowded theater" is the most consistently overused, misunderstood, and tiresome arguments levied by censorship apologists against the ideals of free speech. It's also completely incorrect, as the actual act of shouting the word fire in a crowded theater is most assuredly protected under the first amendment. A casual reading of literature makes this obvious[1].
Thankfully the use of this argument is generally the loudest signal that can be generated by those who haven't spend much time dealing with the subject in any depth, so it's always a useful tool to gauge how much energy to spend engaging with someone on the topic.
In any case, when activists refer to Free Speech, we are generally referring to the greater principle of Freedom of Speech[2], which has a much broader philosophical and societal scope than the narrow definition of legally protected speech under the first amendment of the US constitution. Apostles for the movement like myself are in favor of greatly expanding the scope of Free Speech protections in the United States and the world at large, and are more generally committed to engineering a deeper appreciation for the broader concept of Freedom of Speech and the enormous influence it bears on our trajectory towards a free society.
1. https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
Thankfully the use of this argument is generally the loudest signal that can be generated by those who haven't spend much time dealing with the subject in any depth, so it's always a useful tool to gauge how much energy to spend engaging with someone on the topic.
In any case, when activists refer to Free Speech, we are generally referring to the greater principle of Freedom of Speech[2], which has a much broader philosophical and societal scope than the narrow definition of legally protected speech under the first amendment of the US constitution. Apostles for the movement like myself are in favor of greatly expanding the scope of Free Speech protections in the United States and the world at large, and are more generally committed to engineering a deeper appreciation for the broader concept of Freedom of Speech and the enormous influence it bears on our trajectory towards a free society.
1. https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
I'm against the act of censorship on principle, but it's not the only principle I believe in. I also believe in the principle that unnecessary deaths should be avoided, and that principle takes precedence over the other one.
Selfhoster as your name, crying for restrictions. Wild.
I'm vaccinated.
I'm vaccinated.
I'm not an anarchist. The only reason why I call for censorship of this content is because one's own right to expression should never trump another's right to live.
That is not the case here.
Whelp, if there's anyone who knows anything about the effectiveness of censorship, it would be you.
Trying to blacklist the word, hijacking any channel that mentioned 'libera' in the topic in any context led to you once having the largest IRC network by user count... to... what is it now? 1500 users, tops?
Now Libera is number 1 on Netsplit.de and you would rank at about 22... if they were feeling generous.
Trying to blacklist the word, hijacking any channel that mentioned 'libera' in the topic in any context led to you once having the largest IRC network by user count... to... what is it now? 1500 users, tops?
Now Libera is number 1 on Netsplit.de and you would rank at about 22... if they were feeling generous.
rasengan(2)
The popcorn communities that are following this have found some great results in reaction to this.
Frustrated with the inaction of the admins some redditors proceeded to make /r/ivermectin into a NSFW subreddit by posting drawn sexual content involving horses: https://old.reddit.com/r/TopMindsOfReddit/comments/pfb2kr/ch...
Meanwhile last night there are accusations being pushed by both sides about pedophilia: https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/pfmbjf/rnon...
It's hilarious and sad, and while it may be technically censorship, IMO the people calling for the removal of Covid misinformation and the subreddits spreading it have just as much right to do so as I have to boo and heckle a performing artist.
Frustrated with the inaction of the admins some redditors proceeded to make /r/ivermectin into a NSFW subreddit by posting drawn sexual content involving horses: https://old.reddit.com/r/TopMindsOfReddit/comments/pfb2kr/ch...
Meanwhile last night there are accusations being pushed by both sides about pedophilia: https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/pfmbjf/rnon...
It's hilarious and sad, and while it may be technically censorship, IMO the people calling for the removal of Covid misinformation and the subreddits spreading it have just as much right to do so as I have to boo and heckle a performing artist.
They certainly have a right to do so, but since reddit complied, it is censorship.
There is the usual talk about how companies aren't bound to the first amendment. If you only adhere to it because you are compelled by law you fail the most basic levels of literacy on that topic.
This doesn't mean you are not allowed to oppose the opinions uttered in that subs at all. But its prominency is mainly caused by tantrums like this in the first place. This is destructive in many way and reddit does promote actors far worse than people believing misinformation.
There is the usual talk about how companies aren't bound to the first amendment. If you only adhere to it because you are compelled by law you fail the most basic levels of literacy on that topic.
This doesn't mean you are not allowed to oppose the opinions uttered in that subs at all. But its prominency is mainly caused by tantrums like this in the first place. This is destructive in many way and reddit does promote actors far worse than people believing misinformation.
Did I say it wasn't censorship or something? The destruction was happening. When you have a drunk person at the party shitting on the table kicking them out is the unfortunate reality.
An update, the main sub pushing the misinformation, r/NoNewNormal was just banned and r/Ivermectin is under quarantine.
This makes me sad but is also actually kind of hilarious.
> The r/PokemonGo subreddit, representing players of the augmented reality game, announced it was going dark and would stay private until Reddit removed sites spreading misinformation about Covid.
Really? r/PokemonGo mods are to have influence over what kind of discussion people can have about a constantly evolving medical situation?
> The r/PokemonGo subreddit, representing players of the augmented reality game, announced it was going dark and would stay private until Reddit removed sites spreading misinformation about Covid.
Really? r/PokemonGo mods are to have influence over what kind of discussion people can have about a constantly evolving medical situation?
This isn't a protest, it's a tantrum. Comparing it to a protest is an insult to protestors. If you've seen what the mods behind this are saying, the intent behind all becomes VERY clear.
I think this entire event and the way all parties have reacted to it is extremely embarrassing.
I think this entire event and the way all parties have reacted to it is extremely embarrassing.
So what ARE the mods saying? Can you provide a citation as well please?
[deleted]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-oV42OMQoE