Tell HN: Mailchimp locked my account because I'm Russian
49 comments
Mailchimp is a US company and thus bound to US law, which includes economic sanctions.
This is likely Mailchimp complying with those sanctions.
This is likely Mailchimp complying with those sanctions.
There are no sanctions (yet) that target every citizen.
And it's only going to get worse
Unless you take to the streets. They can't arrest you all (or maybe they can, idk)
Unless you take to the streets. They can't arrest you all (or maybe they can, idk)
> Unless you take to the streets. They can't arrest you all.
This is really out of touch coming from childless Western men with email jobs. Revolutionary ideas guys.
This is really out of touch coming from childless Western men with email jobs. Revolutionary ideas guys.
As an Eastern European, I disagree. This guy is right. It has been done before (Solidarnosc) and it can be done again.
Russia is a dictatorship. The true constituents of Russia, the military, the oligarchs, all for now seem to unconditionally support Putin. Publicly demonstrating in a country known for violently ending public demonstrations is only going to get people needlessly killed. There are many other ways to dissent.
> Publicly demonstrating in a country known for violently ending public demonstrations is only going to get people needlessly killed.
Public activism (well targeted) is how you turn those things, particularly the military rank-and-file.
I mean, it's not like the same thing wasn't true of the Tsarist regime when the various forces opposed to it started demonstrating.
Public activism (well targeted) is how you turn those things, particularly the military rank-and-file.
I mean, it's not like the same thing wasn't true of the Tsarist regime when the various forces opposed to it started demonstrating.
> Unless you take to the streets.
I don't understand why keyboard warriors in liberal democracies seem to think that Putin is going to be toppled by street protests. As terrible as Putin is, he is objectively less terrible than Stalin. Yet, nobody was able to topple him.
I don't understand why keyboard warriors in liberal democracies seem to think that Putin is going to be toppled by street protests. As terrible as Putin is, he is objectively less terrible than Stalin. Yet, nobody was able to topple him.
Arab Spring was street protests. results varied widely from Tunisia to Egypt to Syria, but in all cases protests led to massive change.
Almost all of the arab spring countries except for Tunisia maybe are worse off, they are significantly worse off too. Literal slave market in Libya for example.
People dont seem to understand that foreign interventions are complicated seem to almost always go wrong.
Its not as simple as oh Saddam is a dictator, get rid of him, all done we good.
What pisses me off the most is that these gov agents face no consequences for any failed interventions. They dont really care if people die as a result, cities are leveled refugees etc..
they’ll move on to get a promotion in the white house somewhere else and work on other stuff. I find it disgusting and dehumanizing.
Apologies for the rant.
People dont seem to understand that foreign interventions are complicated seem to almost always go wrong.
Its not as simple as oh Saddam is a dictator, get rid of him, all done we good.
What pisses me off the most is that these gov agents face no consequences for any failed interventions. They dont really care if people die as a result, cities are leveled refugees etc..
they’ll move on to get a promotion in the white house somewhere else and work on other stuff. I find it disgusting and dehumanizing.
Apologies for the rant.
Last I checked Assad was still in power. This is despite significant foreign involvement. Is NATO going to start funding armed opposition in Russia?
(ex Israeli here) I actually don't think Syria is a good example for the Arab Spring,they were attacked by ISIS and Curds, Iran got involved on the way and then Russia, the US and Israel through some more fire into the mix. It was not an attempt to throw Aasad and start a democracy.
The street protests and the initial armed insurrection most definitely claimed they wanted to bring down Assad.
How much of it was motivated by a a desire for democracy versus the resentment of the Sunni majority against perceived Alawite domination, I don't know.
How much of it was motivated by a a desire for democracy versus the resentment of the Sunni majority against perceived Alawite domination, I don't know.
> Arab Spring was street protests. results varied widely from Tunisia to Egypt to Syria, but in all cases protests led to massive change.
With Tunisia going back to authoritarianism, Libya/Yemen at war, Egypt already back to military control and Syria holding the status quo.... I'm not sure what massive change you are talking about.
With Tunisia going back to authoritarianism, Libya/Yemen at war, Egypt already back to military control and Syria holding the status quo.... I'm not sure what massive change you are talking about.
I would not want an Arab spring, give me a dictatorship over an endless low level conflict between warring factions any day.
The question is whether "you all" actually feel strongly about getting rid of Putin, or even having relations with the west.
When Jacob Zuma was jailed, people went on pro-corruption riots. Pro-corruption, not anti-corruption. It's possible the same thing will happen in Russia if Putin is toppled too. Protesters may not only have to deal with the police, they might also have to deal with an angry pro-Putin lynch mob.
When Jacob Zuma was jailed, people went on pro-corruption riots. Pro-corruption, not anti-corruption. It's possible the same thing will happen in Russia if Putin is toppled too. Protesters may not only have to deal with the police, they might also have to deal with an angry pro-Putin lynch mob.
Your government did this to you, not mailchimp, not «the west». As long as Putin prioritizes invading sovereign countries for territorial gain, you just have to suck it up.
Putin had bombs planted in Russian cities, had his opponents jailed and assassinated and ordered the bombardment of Chechen, Syrian and Ukranian cities. But I'm pretty sure he didn't lock anyone out of their MailChimp account.
Yes, he wouldn't do anything as bad as locking anyone out of their Mailchimp account.
Your list are all things that Putin ordered. Then the last thing is something that happened because of his orders.
Did Putin personally send millions of refugees out of Ukraine? No, but he ordered the invasion and bombardment. And that's what lead to it happening.
Did Putin personally supply Ukraine with German defensive weaponry? Ditto.
Did Putin personally do whatever blowback occurs? Ditto.
Did Putin personally send millions of refugees out of Ukraine? No, but he ordered the invasion and bombardment. And that's what lead to it happening.
Did Putin personally supply Ukraine with German defensive weaponry? Ditto.
Did Putin personally do whatever blowback occurs? Ditto.
> Then the last thing is something that happened because of his orders.
Evacuating refugees and supplying weapons to Ukraine helps save civilian lives. What exactly does locking out OP from his mailing lists achieve?
Far from being blowback, this is virtually zero cost, zero impact corporate virtue signalling.
Evacuating refugees and supplying weapons to Ukraine helps save civilian lives. What exactly does locking out OP from his mailing lists achieve?
Far from being blowback, this is virtually zero cost, zero impact corporate virtue signalling.
That supplying weapons does help save civilian lives is a non-sequitur for me. Technically, if you only care about civilian lives, you would immediately surrender.
But as to your point, yes - I also think this is mostly virtue signalling - you'd need to lock the columns of the government's power out, i.e. specifically target any members of police/government institutions/military (Edit: as private persons, not only at their workplace).
Edit2: Also, specifically targeting only them has a much larger effect than blanket-banning everyone. But I guess it's technically unfeasible without resorting to nation state levels of intelligence resources.
But as to your point, yes - I also think this is mostly virtue signalling - you'd need to lock the columns of the government's power out, i.e. specifically target any members of police/government institutions/military (Edit: as private persons, not only at their workplace).
Edit2: Also, specifically targeting only them has a much larger effect than blanket-banning everyone. But I guess it's technically unfeasible without resorting to nation state levels of intelligence resources.
> Technically, if you only care about civilian lives, you would immediately surrender.
I think the nuance is that you don't only care about civilian lives. Even peace may be purchased at too high a price. The government of Ukraine thinks that loss of sovereignty is a much higher price to pay.
I think the nuance is that you don't only care about civilian lives. Even peace may be purchased at too high a price. The government of Ukraine thinks that loss of sovereignty is a much higher price to pay.
> What exactly does locking out OP from his mailing lists achieve?
Leave behind an economic scorched earth to hopefully deter future wannabe warmongerers from deciding to war monger.
Sorry for OP but tbh, his pain is nothing compared to literally dying as many Ukrainians are right now.
Leave behind an economic scorched earth to hopefully deter future wannabe warmongerers from deciding to war monger.
Sorry for OP but tbh, his pain is nothing compared to literally dying as many Ukrainians are right now.
> Leave behind an economic scorched earth to hopefully deter future wannabe warmongerers from deciding to war monger.
Right, because it's small tech blogs that are the backbone of the Russian economy, not its state owned energy companies which still continue to sell to Europe.
> literally dying as many Ukrainians are right now
I mean sure, it's great perfomative activism but how exactly does cancelling OP helps them?
Right, because it's small tech blogs that are the backbone of the Russian economy, not its state owned energy companies which still continue to sell to Europe.
> literally dying as many Ukrainians are right now
I mean sure, it's great perfomative activism but how exactly does cancelling OP helps them?
It’s astounding isn’t it? Technically Russia isn’t all that dependent on gas exports to Europe for its income but it does seem that Europe is very dependent on Russian gas. Meanwhile the peanut gallery is applauding meaningless gestures like this.
This is becoming a meme, like that "Nothing bad can happen to the UK because of Brexit, because Germans like British cars" thing that people repeated for no obvious reason.
The EU has quite detailed and widespread plans to fuck up the Russian economy on a near permanent basis. They'd basically already done so by taking climate change seriously while Putin tried to pretend it wasn't happening, now they're hitting fast-forward on that plan and specifically targeting Russian carbon first.
Russian coal and oil is the easy bit to do and it hurts Russia more, so they're doing that first. It's like shouting at someone with a sniper rifle, "why don't you come out and fight me like a man?". Because it would be strategically unwise and totally unnecessary in order to beat you, is one potential answer.
The EU has quite detailed and widespread plans to fuck up the Russian economy on a near permanent basis. They'd basically already done so by taking climate change seriously while Putin tried to pretend it wasn't happening, now they're hitting fast-forward on that plan and specifically targeting Russian carbon first.
Russian coal and oil is the easy bit to do and it hurts Russia more, so they're doing that first. It's like shouting at someone with a sniper rifle, "why don't you come out and fight me like a man?". Because it would be strategically unwise and totally unnecessary in order to beat you, is one potential answer.
Why is it zero cost to lock out customers? That presumably has a very direct and obvious cost to the person making the decision.
As to what it achieves, well at the very least it's conveying some information that Russians won't be getting via their usual media.
Why is my blog down? Oh because my country is murdering innocent people again.
I thought people who used the phrase 'virtue signaling' liked and supported Putin? So kind of confusing to use it to critique actions taken against him and try to excuse him from blame for the consequences.
As to what it achieves, well at the very least it's conveying some information that Russians won't be getting via their usual media.
Why is my blog down? Oh because my country is murdering innocent people again.
I thought people who used the phrase 'virtue signaling' liked and supported Putin? So kind of confusing to use it to critique actions taken against him and try to excuse him from blame for the consequences.
[deleted]
Can’t you contact them and try to get a copy of your data ?
I did not see any corporate announcement from Mailchimp regarding enforcement of sanctions. Ate you a Russian living in Russia?
Here the e-mail I got:
Hello,
As part of Intuit, Mailchimp is no longer supporting accounts based in Russia. This account is now suspended, and it will be necessary that you find a new vendor.
If you believe that your account has been disabled in error, you may reply to this email. You will be asked to submit information demonstrating that your Mailchimp account complies with regulatory requirements and/or corporate policies.
We join the millions around the world calling for a quick and peaceful resolution to the war. To find out more about Intuit’s position please click here.
– Mailchimp
Yes, well, Ukrainians are dying, when that stops maybe your inconveniences can too.
What you're saying is you'll be fine with getting cancelled because of whatever your government does?
This attempted generalization is a whataboutism.
Very few governments initiate wars.
It‘s only in this specific and utterly exceptional situation that yes, the citizen's should be cancelled because their government started a war and sanctioning them is our only less-than-WW3 option.
Very few governments initiate wars.
It‘s only in this specific and utterly exceptional situation that yes, the citizen's should be cancelled because their government started a war and sanctioning them is our only less-than-WW3 option.
Interestingly, accusations of whataboutism are themselves kind of mindless. You do X, but so do you, whataboutism
> This attempted generalization is a whataboutism.
No, if I asked why the Saudis aren't getting sanctioned despite causing the deaths of a hundred thousand Yemenis, that would be whataboutism.
No, if I asked why the Saudis aren't getting sanctioned despite causing the deaths of a hundred thousand Yemenis, that would be whataboutism.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Sorry for your loss, but you have to suck it up. This is hybrid warfare, and your country is at a kinda sorta war with the US. The 'good news' is your tech blog is going to be canceled anyway once the readers find out you're Russian.
As a side note, it looks like Russian 'below-the-threshold' invasion of 2014 significantly altered American strategy and made it more versatile. We'll just have to wait and see if it changes the end game, though.
As a side note, it looks like Russian 'below-the-threshold' invasion of 2014 significantly altered American strategy and made it more versatile. We'll just have to wait and see if it changes the end game, though.
[deleted]
The window opportunity of protesting in the streets has been closed. Who "wins" the war now will not change the fact that Ukraine will be rebuilt with your money. The bill is huge yet and keeps growing each day.
Many young Russians are quitting the country. Probably the safest solution now that your president has going so mentally unstable as to equal a maternity full of women and newborn with a nazis den.
Russia can just aim for a pyrrhic victory. Then will suffer a hard recession and faces a very bleak future.
You have a bigger problem that Mailchimp access. If you can, quit the country.
Many young Russians are quitting the country. Probably the safest solution now that your president has going so mentally unstable as to equal a maternity full of women and newborn with a nazis den.
Russia can just aim for a pyrrhic victory. Then will suffer a hard recession and faces a very bleak future.
You have a bigger problem that Mailchimp access. If you can, quit the country.
Since we have an actual Russian in the thread, it would be interesting to have some light shed on this.
One analysis I keep hearing is that economic collapse means that they will inevitably submit to western liberal democracy because living in a stone age economy with no proverbial coke or blue jeans is just too intolerable for people.
The other analysis is that most Russians live quite independently of the economy, have never heard of any American chimpanzees delivering mail, have no interest in any western luxuries, and are happy as long as they can hear soothing messages from the state media about their greatness, and get drunk off the gourd on cheap vodka (which will practically be free if nobody buys Russian grain anymore).
If the former is true, obviously pile on as many sanctions as possible. But if the latter is true, sanctions could make Russia less likely to change, not more. You'd want to get more people hooked on western goods, services and culture. I'm sure both groups of people exist concurrently, since Russia is anything but homogenous. But without actually living on the inside for a long time it's hard to tell which way the bias leans. And then there's the question of how strong the bias would need to be to justify one course of actions over the other.
One analysis I keep hearing is that economic collapse means that they will inevitably submit to western liberal democracy because living in a stone age economy with no proverbial coke or blue jeans is just too intolerable for people.
The other analysis is that most Russians live quite independently of the economy, have never heard of any American chimpanzees delivering mail, have no interest in any western luxuries, and are happy as long as they can hear soothing messages from the state media about their greatness, and get drunk off the gourd on cheap vodka (which will practically be free if nobody buys Russian grain anymore).
If the former is true, obviously pile on as many sanctions as possible. But if the latter is true, sanctions could make Russia less likely to change, not more. You'd want to get more people hooked on western goods, services and culture. I'm sure both groups of people exist concurrently, since Russia is anything but homogenous. But without actually living on the inside for a long time it's hard to tell which way the bias leans. And then there's the question of how strong the bias would need to be to justify one course of actions over the other.
> economic collapse means that they will inevitably submit to western liberal democracy
Not, economic collapse means that Russia will became a serf from China.
Coca cola, blue jeans and jewels are easily replaceable; Russia not having anymore Intel CPUs, or Taiwanese chips for fixing computers, or even neon gas required to make their own chips will not be so funny.
And by Computers I mean all that is basically a computer now: cars, trains, machine, TV, phones, appliances... the "stone age" one is a good metaphor. Everything can be smuggled, is just more expensive, but "Smart" products can easily be redesigned to refuse to work inside Russian frontiers, for example.
Of course Russia could buy (almost) everything from China instead, paying with raw materials or asking China to buy all things in their name (Many African countries are doing exactly that now), but then China will write the price. Russia will not have much leverage to negotiate in that position.
Not, economic collapse means that Russia will became a serf from China.
Coca cola, blue jeans and jewels are easily replaceable; Russia not having anymore Intel CPUs, or Taiwanese chips for fixing computers, or even neon gas required to make their own chips will not be so funny.
And by Computers I mean all that is basically a computer now: cars, trains, machine, TV, phones, appliances... the "stone age" one is a good metaphor. Everything can be smuggled, is just more expensive, but "Smart" products can easily be redesigned to refuse to work inside Russian frontiers, for example.
Of course Russia could buy (almost) everything from China instead, paying with raw materials or asking China to buy all things in their name (Many African countries are doing exactly that now), but then China will write the price. Russia will not have much leverage to negotiate in that position.
> now we have even less freedom of speech inside the country.
Did anybody read this part?
I see a lot of comments along the lines of "well we're at war with you" or "you'll get your access back once Ukraine stops being bombed", with the justification that anyone living in Russia has the duty to "rise up" and stop the war locally. To be these responses seem thoroughly un-nuanced and flippant. Its absolutely true that to stop the war, you need to get rid of Putin, but its not clear that there's a connection between dropping clients and getting rid of Putin. In fact this is probably counterproductive and strengthen's Putin's grip on the population even further.
The usual mechanism given is "if we annoy the people enough, they'll rise up on the streets and demand change". First, this assumes that if you annoy people, they'll transfer their anger to the regime. This is only true for a subgroup of affected people; the rest will just be angry at the sanctioning party and direct their anger through the regime into even stronger pro-war support. But for the people who might be motivated to protest, its not clear whether or not their actions will be effective. Because we're talking about a dictatorship, individual action carries both high personal risk and is unlikely to be very effective. There are exceptions to this rule, for example, Marina Ovsyannikova, but ordinary people going to the streets and holding up signs is only likely to end up with more people in jail (and potentially more people conscripted into the army). There is also the objection that mass-protest will make a difference, which, perhaps it will, but that requires co-ordination and a critical mass.
The second thing to say here (relevant to what I quoted from OP) is that Mailchimp is infrastructure which is in use by the local resistance. By blanket cutting-off Russia, you're also hindering the local resistance as well. If one wants to take a principled stand, its probably fine to cut off regular businesses that have nothing to do with it (with the caveat that you might just make them angry at you), but throwing out the baby with the bathwater and cutting off the local resistance is just completely counterproductive. Due to the inability to make payments outside the country, their only options for replacement infrastructure are local, which are more likely to be under state influence and censorship. So now their only options are to shut down and stop organizing the resistance to the regime, or engage in self-censorship, which might as well just be shutting down.
Did anybody read this part?
I see a lot of comments along the lines of "well we're at war with you" or "you'll get your access back once Ukraine stops being bombed", with the justification that anyone living in Russia has the duty to "rise up" and stop the war locally. To be these responses seem thoroughly un-nuanced and flippant. Its absolutely true that to stop the war, you need to get rid of Putin, but its not clear that there's a connection between dropping clients and getting rid of Putin. In fact this is probably counterproductive and strengthen's Putin's grip on the population even further.
The usual mechanism given is "if we annoy the people enough, they'll rise up on the streets and demand change". First, this assumes that if you annoy people, they'll transfer their anger to the regime. This is only true for a subgroup of affected people; the rest will just be angry at the sanctioning party and direct their anger through the regime into even stronger pro-war support. But for the people who might be motivated to protest, its not clear whether or not their actions will be effective. Because we're talking about a dictatorship, individual action carries both high personal risk and is unlikely to be very effective. There are exceptions to this rule, for example, Marina Ovsyannikova, but ordinary people going to the streets and holding up signs is only likely to end up with more people in jail (and potentially more people conscripted into the army). There is also the objection that mass-protest will make a difference, which, perhaps it will, but that requires co-ordination and a critical mass.
The second thing to say here (relevant to what I quoted from OP) is that Mailchimp is infrastructure which is in use by the local resistance. By blanket cutting-off Russia, you're also hindering the local resistance as well. If one wants to take a principled stand, its probably fine to cut off regular businesses that have nothing to do with it (with the caveat that you might just make them angry at you), but throwing out the baby with the bathwater and cutting off the local resistance is just completely counterproductive. Due to the inability to make payments outside the country, their only options for replacement infrastructure are local, which are more likely to be under state influence and censorship. So now their only options are to shut down and stop organizing the resistance to the regime, or engage in self-censorship, which might as well just be shutting down.
Do you have an option of transferring the ownership to someone out of Russia? Maybe even find a co-author for the blog
I don't know what's the Mailchimp policy on this, but that's a path I would try. Of course, that would require a lot of correspondence with the support and finding an actual person outside of Russia whom you trust.
I don't know what's the Mailchimp policy on this, but that's a path I would try. Of course, that would require a lot of correspondence with the support and finding an actual person outside of Russia whom you trust.
Feel sorry for you mate. But citizens of the world have to put up with American hegemony and the hubris of having better military weapons and the petro dollar. You may not find much empathy by appealing to moral scruples on social media.
Pretty nasty. Welcome to the big tech tyrants! Really, you’re paying too much for mail anyways. Oracle cloud email delivery is a mere $0.085/1,000 emails sent. For sure a much better deal than any other email delivery provider. Oh, you’ll also pay $0.0085/GB of data transferred. That’s $8.50 per 1 TB. Best deal in the world.
I respect their opinion and do not support the war, but locking out data is just insane. I know there are a lot of independent Russian journalists and activists who use Mailchimp and now we have even less freedom of speech inside the country.
Thanks Mailchimp.