Ask HN: Any Parents to “Average” Children?
Edit: I will rewrite and post this again. Thank you to Paul and Ross for helpful comments that directly answered the question I asked.
40 comments
I have three children - all now adults with successful careers.
The oldest was a voracious reader from very early on. Headstrong and made lots of mistakes but is now a successful ice cream entrepreneur.
Middle child was/is mathematically gifted. Kept him in sports - hockey, soccer, track, snowboarding - to balance the intellectual and keep him from getting bored. He's now a developer at a startup.
My youngest turned out to be the weakest intellectually. Always struggled with school. But she worked hard (unlike the other two) and was always creative. She is now a UX designer at a big consulting firm and will probably do the best of all three because she learned how to work hard and has a flare for design that resonates.
You can never tell what path they will take, so just encourage them whenever they show interest in something - even if it's not what you're into.
The oldest was a voracious reader from very early on. Headstrong and made lots of mistakes but is now a successful ice cream entrepreneur.
Middle child was/is mathematically gifted. Kept him in sports - hockey, soccer, track, snowboarding - to balance the intellectual and keep him from getting bored. He's now a developer at a startup.
My youngest turned out to be the weakest intellectually. Always struggled with school. But she worked hard (unlike the other two) and was always creative. She is now a UX designer at a big consulting firm and will probably do the best of all three because she learned how to work hard and has a flare for design that resonates.
You can never tell what path they will take, so just encourage them whenever they show interest in something - even if it's not what you're into.
[deleted]
I have an IQ of 130 or a bit more (last I checked, it was many years). I have never gotten my daughter's IQ tested. If she has an IQ of 102, but is emotionally balanced, she's got a bright future.
One of the features of an emotionally gifted/balanced/well-adjusted person, is their ability to use all of their mental powers to bear on a problem, without letting their wishes or fears overwhelm their intellect. Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one, but plenty of people screw it up because they let envy, shame, fear, greed, or other emotions get the better of them.
Your role would be to let her use her talents to make reasonable, well-adjusted choices in life. If she never gets a high IQ, that's not a big problem, as long as she isn't trying to pretend she does, in order to avoid disappointing a loving but emotionally "morose" parent. If she chooses a life that does not require a high IQ, she can still be happy and productive. If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that.
One of the features of an emotionally gifted/balanced/well-adjusted person, is their ability to use all of their mental powers to bear on a problem, without letting their wishes or fears overwhelm their intellect. Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one, but plenty of people screw it up because they let envy, shame, fear, greed, or other emotions get the better of them.
Your role would be to let her use her talents to make reasonable, well-adjusted choices in life. If she never gets a high IQ, that's not a big problem, as long as she isn't trying to pretend she does, in order to avoid disappointing a loving but emotionally "morose" parent. If she chooses a life that does not require a high IQ, she can still be happy and productive. If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that.
> If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that.
Beautifully put. Thank you.
Beautifully put. Thank you.
"Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one"
It's not so easy. For example, what fraction of high school students who are good at math know what an actuary is? They have likely heard of doctors, nurses, and lawyers, but what is a management consultant? I've read that there is still a strong tendency for children to follow the careers of their parents. Part of it is genetics (doctors' kids are more likely to have the IQ to be a doctor than kids in general), but part of it is just having those careers on your radar screen.
It's not so easy. For example, what fraction of high school students who are good at math know what an actuary is? They have likely heard of doctors, nurses, and lawyers, but what is a management consultant? I've read that there is still a strong tendency for children to follow the careers of their parents. Part of it is genetics (doctors' kids are more likely to have the IQ to be a doctor than kids in general), but part of it is just having those careers on your radar screen.
Maybe I should have been more precise. It's not actually an intellectually difficult problem: it may require a lot of research effort, but it is not intellectually complex. Lots of effort is something plenty of IQ 102 people can do, and by the way lots of high-IQ people cannot. Determining if that career will work for you, while emotionally fraught, is not intellectually difficult.
But, you're correct, it is not easy. Nothing about it requires a high IQ, though.
But, you're correct, it is not easy. Nothing about it requires a high IQ, though.
Yeah. My son has a very different intelligence than me. I learned to read when I was 3 as did his mom. My son was slow to read. I home schooled him in math a bit, he never really got algebra but I had to improve my ability to do mental arithmetic to keep up with him. He beats me at chess.
Thank you for sharing. Would love to see anecdotal stories like this, even with different endings.
I recall Gunther on Futurama was happiest with his half-Electronium hat. Moderate intelligence is just fine, perhaps even better.
To add to that, we're not even talking about "intelligence" here. We are talking about a single score a preschooler (as I understand it) got on a particular assessment instrument. That's not the thing that should play a meaningful role in defining one's life.
Don’t focus too much on numbers… the day we’ll grade EQ we may reconsider what intelligence is.
Not sure what you are looking for but if it helps: more intelligent people tend to be less happy.
[real citation needed]:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/2...
https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html
[real citation needed]:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/2...
https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html
It might be helpful to specify more precisely what's distressing to you about this.
Well, my morose nature is to be distressed by most situations :-)
But, I feel like it's typical for "average" parents to seek help for dealing with their gifted children. I've read a bit about that online. Haven't seen much about the opposite.
Imagine a parent who is proud of their child's precocity. What's the opposite of pride? Shame? Do I feel some shame? Maybe a smidge. Love is definitely the predominant feeling. Thank God.
But, I feel like it's typical for "average" parents to seek help for dealing with their gifted children. I've read a bit about that online. Haven't seen much about the opposite.
Imagine a parent who is proud of their child's precocity. What's the opposite of pride? Shame? Do I feel some shame? Maybe a smidge. Love is definitely the predominant feeling. Thank God.
You are ashamed your child is pretty much like every other child? Am I reading that right? That seems really strange.
My tip would be to just let the child be average. Do you think your higher IQ has made you happier throughout your life? Nothing bad about being average.
My tip would be to just let the child be average. Do you think your higher IQ has made you happier throughout your life? Nothing bad about being average.
OP's original post referenced this article [0] as a concern.
[0] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-k...
Are they concerned about depression because he's afraid his daughter won't be smart enough? Do they think 68% of the population within 1 SD of the mean IQ are suicidal, or should be?
[0] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-k...
Are they concerned about depression because he's afraid his daughter won't be smart enough? Do they think 68% of the population within 1 SD of the mean IQ are suicidal, or should be?
[deleted]
It's totally okay, I don't know why you should care.
IQ is not some moral value. Support her in life, and make sure she gets a job that get her by in life without much suffering, and be glad you have a daughter that's mentally well.
IQ is not some moral value. Support her in life, and make sure she gets a job that get her by in life without much suffering, and be glad you have a daughter that's mentally well.
IQ testing and "gifted" labelling is as toxic as any other. Look at how many prodigies say life was distorted.
Keep bright kids active, extended? Sure. But maintain links to your peer group.
The cohort of people in the beyond normal bucket is tiny. Building dreams by hothousing is intellectual child abuse in most cases.
Every "mensa" child I knew as a kid was an arrogant fuckhead. (I'm average, or below. Content.)
My dad was super smart. He didn't push us. He said "regression tends to the mean" at the time, which I didn't understand but maybe now I do kinda. Aspire to be socially average but above normal productive, and maximise what you have judiciously
Keep bright kids active, extended? Sure. But maintain links to your peer group.
The cohort of people in the beyond normal bucket is tiny. Building dreams by hothousing is intellectual child abuse in most cases.
Every "mensa" child I knew as a kid was an arrogant fuckhead. (I'm average, or below. Content.)
My dad was super smart. He didn't push us. He said "regression tends to the mean" at the time, which I didn't understand but maybe now I do kinda. Aspire to be socially average but above normal productive, and maximise what you have judiciously
Remember that she's only a child, and has talents that are different than yours.
Don't expect her to live up to who you are, because she's not you.
Try to remember what it was like to be a kid.
Make time to organize playdates and discuss behavior and development with her peers' parents. You'll find that it's easy to normalize her behavior when you realize that everyone struggles with their kids.
Don't expect her to live up to who you are, because she's not you.
Try to remember what it was like to be a kid.
Make time to organize playdates and discuss behavior and development with her peers' parents. You'll find that it's easy to normalize her behavior when you realize that everyone struggles with their kids.
In my experience, attitude trumps IQ in pretty much all situations.
Most humans are average in what they do. Potential doesn't matter, only reality does. Focusing on potential is what arrogant people that are lazy like to do, but mostly no one else cares.
You are the perfect example: > I am now a below-average performer at an elite company
Teach her to have mentality of curiosity, lifelong learning and humility and everything will be just fine.
Most humans are average in what they do. Potential doesn't matter, only reality does. Focusing on potential is what arrogant people that are lazy like to do, but mostly no one else cares.
You are the perfect example: > I am now a below-average performer at an elite company
Teach her to have mentality of curiosity, lifelong learning and humility and everything will be just fine.
This post makes me really sad. I wonder if my parents thought this about me when I was growing up. My dad's pretty smart,and probably knew I was dumb when I couldn't beat him at chess/mental math when I was younger. My mom and sister were voracious readers but I never was.
Like your daughter, I'm average. I didn't go to an elite university. I make average pay and don't own a Mercedes. What's bad about that? Do you have pity on average people like me, who make up the vast majority of the population?
Like your daughter, I'm average. I didn't go to an elite university. I make average pay and don't own a Mercedes. What's bad about that? Do you have pity on average people like me, who make up the vast majority of the population?
OP, I'd really, really recommend that you are able to answer these questions before you start projecting assumptions, wishes, or expected failure onto a pre-schooler:
- are you happy, right now?
- are you living a life that you chose?
- what makes you happy
- what makes a live "well-lived"?
I have this growing pit in my stomach right now that I just can't shake. Your IQ is high and you make a ton of money... and I doubt I'd trade places with you for any material possession on this Earth. You have a daughter to help guide through the world and you're on HN having an unspecified anxiety about a capricious measurement, of a 4 year old, that is widely accepted by thoughtful folks to be a largely unuseful metric.
I suspect that maybe you're wondering about the legitimacy of those tests, questioning your own results, wondering what this means for her... and I really hope you can see that how you process this is going to affect how you treat her. That is going to affect her so much more than an IQ test done at 4, it's really worrisome to me that you can't see the forest for the trees.
I always feel most loved by my parent, and most at peace with my path to find happiness in life, when they tell me "Whatever, we just want you to be happy.". It's what they said when I came out. It's what they said when I stepped back from a promising career because despite... the exceptional status and money I had... I was being under-valued, disrespected and made to do thoughtless techno-capital work. The self-doubt I already had from societal expectations would've crushed me if they had leaned into it and admonished me.
I hope in your heart you realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness is far more important than projecting your unexamined internalized expectations onto her.
- are you happy, right now?
- are you living a life that you chose?
- what makes you happy
- what makes a live "well-lived"?
I have this growing pit in my stomach right now that I just can't shake. Your IQ is high and you make a ton of money... and I doubt I'd trade places with you for any material possession on this Earth. You have a daughter to help guide through the world and you're on HN having an unspecified anxiety about a capricious measurement, of a 4 year old, that is widely accepted by thoughtful folks to be a largely unuseful metric.
I suspect that maybe you're wondering about the legitimacy of those tests, questioning your own results, wondering what this means for her... and I really hope you can see that how you process this is going to affect how you treat her. That is going to affect her so much more than an IQ test done at 4, it's really worrisome to me that you can't see the forest for the trees.
I always feel most loved by my parent, and most at peace with my path to find happiness in life, when they tell me "Whatever, we just want you to be happy.". It's what they said when I came out. It's what they said when I stepped back from a promising career because despite... the exceptional status and money I had... I was being under-valued, disrespected and made to do thoughtless techno-capital work. The self-doubt I already had from societal expectations would've crushed me if they had leaned into it and admonished me.
I hope in your heart you realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness is far more important than projecting your unexamined internalized expectations onto her.
> realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness
That's precisely what I'm working on here. There are countless guides for "average parents with gifted child." There are no guides for "gifted parents with average child".
That's precisely what I'm working on here. There are countless guides for "average parents with gifted child." There are no guides for "gifted parents with average child".
This thread makes me irrationally angry. Labeling yourself as "the gifted one" is such an unbelievably absent-minded opener and toxic mindset to raise a child on, but your incessant infatuation with your daughter being a mirror image of your own capabilities is, quite frankly, deranged. What's the problem with her? Oh, she's normal? What a pity! Everyone, come gawk at this guy's normal child! Not only did you manage to thwart the chance of horrifying congenital disease or disfigurement, she didn't even get the genius genes!
Completely tone-deaf contributions like this make me hate HN more by the day. What's stopping you from just enjoying life with your daughter, spending time with your growing family, and fostering understanding? Maybe you both like the same episodes of Star Trek, or have the same taste in 90s music. Who knows!
Imagine her reading this in 10 years, working through the most difficult portion of her academic life. Do you think it would inspire confidence in her? Do you think it would make her appreciate you as a parent? Do you think she'd find greater respect for you knowing that you tried turning her into... yourself? This whole thread is like someone watched Gattica but their only thought was "the gene editing part was pretty cool I guess". It burns me up. I have no right to tell you how to live your life, but I should hope you have the same respect for your own kin.
Completely tone-deaf contributions like this make me hate HN more by the day. What's stopping you from just enjoying life with your daughter, spending time with your growing family, and fostering understanding? Maybe you both like the same episodes of Star Trek, or have the same taste in 90s music. Who knows!
Imagine her reading this in 10 years, working through the most difficult portion of her academic life. Do you think it would inspire confidence in her? Do you think it would make her appreciate you as a parent? Do you think she'd find greater respect for you knowing that you tried turning her into... yourself? This whole thread is like someone watched Gattica but their only thought was "the gene editing part was pretty cool I guess". It burns me up. I have no right to tell you how to live your life, but I should hope you have the same respect for your own kin.
You raise them like any other child. I've never seen a question like this.
Got 150, Im a mess never finished school, never did any study.
Can code somehow which in this market is enough
Can code somehow which in this market is enough
Same here
The more IQ the more mental illness
The more IQ the more mental illness
I don’t know… I was tested when I was 12 yo and got a 142, I am an extremely balanced, relaxed and happy person. Great self esteem too.
Better than winning a roulette, congratulations.
[deleted]
IQ is bullshit, don't put any importance whatsoever on it.
There is much psychometric research contradicting this. Some authors are Ian Deary, Arthur Jensen, and Charles Murray.
I don't believe that for a minute. I taught "dumb" kids with all Fs programming and now they're just as good as the best 150+ IQ guys. I bet their IQ test results increased significantly (I know for sure about 3 cases of big increase of 25+ points) . IQ is bullshit, you can't change my mind. I'm fully convinced it's 100% dependent on parents and environment and can be changed (given enough determination) at any point in life. Anybody can be taught programming, and programmers have good IQ test results - both of these statements have proven true to me again and again.
[deleted]
> but due to some difficulties in preschool, underwent some tests and has an IQ of 102.
That's an average-ish result, so it probably isn't the source of the problems in preschool. OTOH whatever the unidentified source of those problems is may be depressing the results of the IQ assessment. (While IQ tests generally have decent test-retest consistency, there are definitely factors other than what they are intended to test that can impact them, and the kinds of other things that would lead to problems for which an IQ test would be part of the diagnostic response definitely include them.)
In this scenario, were it me, “my child has a test showing average intelligence” would not be a major concern.
That's an average-ish result, so it probably isn't the source of the problems in preschool. OTOH whatever the unidentified source of those problems is may be depressing the results of the IQ assessment. (While IQ tests generally have decent test-retest consistency, there are definitely factors other than what they are intended to test that can impact them, and the kinds of other things that would lead to problems for which an IQ test would be part of the diagnostic response definitely include them.)
In this scenario, were it me, “my child has a test showing average intelligence” would not be a major concern.
Pre-school? Seems a bit early to be worried about their standardized test performance. It's a lot of theater to justify your tuition fee.
But even if they have a lower test score (than you wanted)when they are 3/4/5 years old, so what? Don't be fatalistic, they have a lot of growing to do & need your support.
But even if they have a lower test score (than you wanted)when they are 3/4/5 years old, so what? Don't be fatalistic, they have a lot of growing to do & need your support.
An IQ test for a preschooler. Is there any less valuable metric out there?
Yeah, I'm not sure what the point is. Good IQ tests usually test vocabulary and text comprehension, which a preschooler will not have, period.
Testing kids earlier than 12 seems like absolute nonsense.
Testing kids earlier than 12 seems like absolute nonsense.