The Subcontrabassoon Project(subcontrabassoon.com)
subcontrabassoon.com
The Subcontrabassoon Project
http://www.subcontrabassoon.com/media.html
41 comments
I remember going to a flute event in Chicago back around 2000 and in the exhibit hall, there was a bass flute¹ that a few people picked up and couldn’t get a sound out of—later, I was on the other side of the room and someone (who likely had previous experience with the bass flute) picked it up and played a lyrical line on it and it was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard.²
⸻
1. While called a bass flute, strictly speaking a bass flute should be called a tenor flute as it sounds a fifth below the alto flute which sounds a fourth below the concert flute. The piccolo plays an octave above the concert flute and there are intermediate flutes pitched a fifth above the concert flute and also a whole tone above it.
2. At the time, a bass flute seemed an improbably expensive instrument that I could never afford to buy. It occurs to me that now that I’m older and more financially secure, I could conceivably afford to buy one and learn to play it.
⸻
1. While called a bass flute, strictly speaking a bass flute should be called a tenor flute as it sounds a fifth below the alto flute which sounds a fourth below the concert flute. The piccolo plays an octave above the concert flute and there are intermediate flutes pitched a fifth above the concert flute and also a whole tone above it.
2. At the time, a bass flute seemed an improbably expensive instrument that I could never afford to buy. It occurs to me that now that I’m older and more financially secure, I could conceivably afford to buy one and learn to play it.
I got a supposedly used Jupiter for $1500 on eBay a few years ago, so yeah! Worth it.
That's a lot of money, but it's well within the range of what people pay for high quality instruments
That’s less than half the price of a new bass flute, so not really that much money. And a good double bass (the stringed version) would be $10,000 so $1500 is kind of a bargain in comparison.
Man, I was just looking on eBay and all I was seeing were no-name Chinese bass flutes around $1000. I’ve been contemplating whether it’s worth the risk to get something that might not be playable.
You are correct. I'd risk it if I didn't have one already. I've bought several (normal aka soprano) new Chinese flutes for $80 or so and they're absolutely fine. That price is way less than it costs to get my old student model Gemeindhardt to be repadded. Plus PayPal and eBay never ever side with the seller if you decide to return :O
…or the subcontrabass recorder, e.g. https://www.kunath.com/en/Generalueberholung-Subkontrabass-P... or https://www.dolmetsch.com/millennium.htm .
I have a near obsession with these instruments, and would love to try to build one. Excellent recording of this awesome recorder in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIesMapxaOs
Beautiful! Thanks for the link.
[0] Damn. Scrub to 1:00 if you want the real tea. In the first part he’s playing very high, in standard bass flute territory. At the minute mark it sounds like a string bass. The amount of air you need to push through an instrument that size has to push some kind of anatomical limit.
“amount of air”
Is it more air than, like, a tuba, or whatever would be a more familiar so-low instrument? Would it be cheating to add an assist like on a bagpipe? What about mechanical airflow like a compressor or air conditioning vent?
Is it more air than, like, a tuba, or whatever would be a more familiar so-low instrument? Would it be cheating to add an assist like on a bagpipe? What about mechanical airflow like a compressor or air conditioning vent?
Fun thoughts! Surprisingly, a normal (soprano) flute takes almost as much air as a tuba. The instrument featured here would definitely take at least tuba volumes of air.
None of the assists you mention would be worth it because you would lose almost all of the nuance in tone quality. It is no accident that bagpipes tend to have a fairly uniform sound and volume. And that’s assuming you can somehow prevent the additional noise these techniques bring with them.
None of the assists you mention would be worth it because you would lose almost all of the nuance in tone quality. It is no accident that bagpipes tend to have a fairly uniform sound and volume. And that’s assuming you can somehow prevent the additional noise these techniques bring with them.
i played both flute and tuba for a few years and both make your lips hurt and require obnoxious amounts of lung capacity - air.
I'd say a tuba requires a bit more overall, because you gotta move your lips by pushing air through them.
I'd say a tuba requires a bit more overall, because you gotta move your lips by pushing air through them.
I play both and agree. Now imagine playing one of those crazy contrabass dealies…
Not too many people would confuse a flute with a bassoon.
Other extreme bass instruments:
- octobasse: https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE
- subcontrabass saxophone: https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0
- subcontrabass flute: https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw
- subcontrabass recorder: https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE
- subcontrabass tuba: https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4
- octobasse: https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE
- subcontrabass saxophone: https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0
- subcontrabass flute: https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw
- subcontrabass recorder: https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE
- subcontrabass tuba: https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4
Most extreme of all:
-Broadwalk Hall Auditorium Organ 64-foot diaphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc
-Broadwalk Hall Auditorium Organ 64-foot diaphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc
Looks like it's been built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agInwu6Ojdg
(makes sounds, but keywork isn't there yet).
(makes sounds, but keywork isn't there yet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3QaSqraPY - He has a nice little edited demo uploaded as well. I hope he's able to get the keywork going soon.
If you enjoyed that one, you may also like this recording (subcontrabassoon comes in at 0:26). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSh34z1SrI
We live in an age where combining music, software, and signal processing can let you do some amazing things. I can imagine a high-fidelity simulation of this instrument's timbre before it's ever built, by using the mechanical CAD model to produce an acoustic model, and then modeling the response of the wood to an incident acoustic wave.
It's already sounded it's first notes a while ago.
Sorry to spoil the fun.
This reminded me of a very hip recording of Anthony Braxton playing Donna Lee on contrabass clarinet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M
[deleted]
I went into college as a bassoon performance major and came out as a math major. This is so incredibly amazing to me and is one of the most serendipitous posts I've ever seen on HN.
It looks from the diagrams like the plan once the keywork is done is to have some of the keys operate what look to me to essentially be bicycle cables (Bowden cables), which for some reason I find totally delightful.
The original plan was to use Bowden cables for some of the low register notes, but I've since redesigned those to use more robust and stable traditional linkages.
Bowden cable linkages work well on some woodwinds, specifically those made by Wolf or Eppelsheim. However, on those instruments they're used for harmonic vents; tiny keys that are normally held shut by spring action, where the cable linkage only needs to open the key slightly, and which often need to be placed in positions where traditional keywork would be impossible (like on the bocal). For low register notes, the holes are large and on the main bore, most keys are open by default and must be closed a precise amount for proper sealing, and even those that are closed by default need to be opened a precise amount for proper intonation. So in the end I believe Bowden connections are unnecessary for the current design (unless I decide to add an altissimo vent to the bocal).
Bowden cable linkages work well on some woodwinds, specifically those made by Wolf or Eppelsheim. However, on those instruments they're used for harmonic vents; tiny keys that are normally held shut by spring action, where the cable linkage only needs to open the key slightly, and which often need to be placed in positions where traditional keywork would be impossible (like on the bocal). For low register notes, the holes are large and on the main bore, most keys are open by default and must be closed a precise amount for proper sealing, and even those that are closed by default need to be opened a precise amount for proper intonation. So in the end I believe Bowden connections are unnecessary for the current design (unless I decide to add an altissimo vent to the bocal).
Makes sense, thanks for the clarification!
This kind of sound is why I don't think I'll ever be rid of the desire to build a calliope, or more technically a calliaphone, but not being a musicologist, I'm not sure if that also technically makes it a pipe organ.
A special few instruments can reach down the frequency scale and just whack you with a note so low it feels like a force of nature is coming out of the instrument. And I'm always delighted whenever I come across a new one.
A special few instruments can reach down the frequency scale and just whack you with a note so low it feels like a force of nature is coming out of the instrument. And I'm always delighted whenever I come across a new one.
> The planned sounding range of the subcontrabassoon is from A−1 (13.75 Hz) to (at least) F2
The thought of a note having a frequency of just a few Hertz reminded me of an old video I watched, which explained that all tones can be thought of as rhythms (and chords can be thought of as polyrhythms):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc
Great video, thanks!
Good news is that since I'm been experimenting with the incomplete prototype, I've been able to play up to at least Eb3, and will likely get F3 on the redesigned 2nd prototype. That gives it roughly the same range as the bassoon (just two octaves lower), all without the need for a dedicated altissimo vent.
Very cool, congratulations! Does it take a lot of breath to play those lower notes?
OP: your username brought me a big smile this morning. Yes it is totally out of topic, but thank you.
[deleted]
That guy who got into a fistfight with Bach: bassoon player. Just imagine what would have happened if he was a subcontrabassionist.
Thanks so much for sharing my project. If any of you have questions, I'm happy to do my best to answer them.
[0]: https://twitter.com/sonic_presence/status/119649172902250906...
[1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/theouterworlds/comments/ilvt6x/got_...