Ask HN: How to find time to learn after full-time job?
70 comments
> Since I started working at a regular job in an office two months back, I don't get enough time to even watch YT videos off of the feed. With the commute, solid 8 hours at office, I barely have any cognitive or physical energy to do any mentally taxing work even if that means learning something new and exciting.
Be kinder to yourself. You're two months into a new job, it takes time to adjust to that. It's also pretty common to work harder earlier in a job to develop a reputation as a hard worker. Reputations like that can stick for years, even as your hours at the desk go down.
There are times in life when it's easier to do things you want, and times when it feels like it takes everything you have just to keep everything from falling apart. Don't try to overextend yourself when you're at your limits, recognize the limit and give yourself easy goals. Spend 5 minutes a day on something instead of lying to yourself and trying to do an hour. Do one hour a week instead of one a day. When you have more time or the work you're doing is motivating, it will get easier to continue doing it more and more.
Most importantly: don't feel like you NEED to do any of that stuff. Do it if you want to and it interests you. It's a lot easier to motivate yourself to do something you find fun, than something you don't really enjoy but feel like you "should".
Be kinder to yourself. You're two months into a new job, it takes time to adjust to that. It's also pretty common to work harder earlier in a job to develop a reputation as a hard worker. Reputations like that can stick for years, even as your hours at the desk go down.
There are times in life when it's easier to do things you want, and times when it feels like it takes everything you have just to keep everything from falling apart. Don't try to overextend yourself when you're at your limits, recognize the limit and give yourself easy goals. Spend 5 minutes a day on something instead of lying to yourself and trying to do an hour. Do one hour a week instead of one a day. When you have more time or the work you're doing is motivating, it will get easier to continue doing it more and more.
Most importantly: don't feel like you NEED to do any of that stuff. Do it if you want to and it interests you. It's a lot easier to motivate yourself to do something you find fun, than something you don't really enjoy but feel like you "should".
This is possibly the best advice.
Also: Think longer term now. My unit of time, as I got older, went from hours to days to weeks. Now, I say things like "I'll finish that next month." It's not necessarily that I do less, it's just that I cannot afford to fragment my days as much as I used to so I'm stricter with my schedule.
In this respect, it makes perfect sense to allow yourself to think only about your job for, say, 6 months. When your mind wanders, right down the idea as something to come back to. Schedule, ahead of time, a day to just exist with your idea list and tinker a bit, every now and then.
But don't expect to be able to follow your interests every minute. Self-regulating in this way is a super power that takes time to build up, but it's immensely rewarding when you can close something, turn to a new thing, and know you have the capacity to finish it.
Also: Think longer term now. My unit of time, as I got older, went from hours to days to weeks. Now, I say things like "I'll finish that next month." It's not necessarily that I do less, it's just that I cannot afford to fragment my days as much as I used to so I'm stricter with my schedule.
In this respect, it makes perfect sense to allow yourself to think only about your job for, say, 6 months. When your mind wanders, right down the idea as something to come back to. Schedule, ahead of time, a day to just exist with your idea list and tinker a bit, every now and then.
But don't expect to be able to follow your interests every minute. Self-regulating in this way is a super power that takes time to build up, but it's immensely rewarding when you can close something, turn to a new thing, and know you have the capacity to finish it.
”Do stuff that interests you” is possibly the best recipe for happy life ever. That’s the Einstein, Feynman & James Watson recipe as well. But the point is not to be succesfull, the point is to do things that interest you, and avoid those that you don’t. Most people won’t be megastars, but those that did things that interested them lived likely much more fullfilling lives - so it’s a win/win recipe. Avoid the boring stuff. At some point the boring stuff may become interesting to you. Then embrace it. Don’t keep up appearances. Don’t read the hip blogs, listen to the top albums, watch the top series, read the venerable books, study advanced math, unless it interests you.
Part of it is finding a company that doesn't work you to the bone. I have a normal 9-5 in a very technical field but the PTO is generous, nobody is counting my hours, and as long as I deliver reasonably in the timeframe they're looking for everyone is super happy. There were years that I was working at most 4 hours a day. Now it's closer to the full 8 but the pace of the day is not grueling.
This falls under the generic umbrella of taking care of yourself. Take breaks, eat and sleep well, exercise... These all help with energy levels and mood.
Another one that was very helpful for me is to find a hobby you really enjoy outside of the field of your work. For years all I did for hobby and work was programming. It got me really far, really quickly in my career but I burnt out hard one year. Even though I thought I was enjoying myself the whole time. So I picked up music, drawing, reading (non-tech)... All helped me disconnect and get better. Doing things a little bit every day will see surprising gains.
This falls under the generic umbrella of taking care of yourself. Take breaks, eat and sleep well, exercise... These all help with energy levels and mood.
Another one that was very helpful for me is to find a hobby you really enjoy outside of the field of your work. For years all I did for hobby and work was programming. It got me really far, really quickly in my career but I burnt out hard one year. Even though I thought I was enjoying myself the whole time. So I picked up music, drawing, reading (non-tech)... All helped me disconnect and get better. Doing things a little bit every day will see surprising gains.
> Part of it is finding a company that doesn't work you to the bone
Definitely a big part of it. A job where your manager/boss doesn't hold you to unreasonable output, implicit overtime requirements, and one where your manager/boss respects you enough to not do that is a big thing, makes a big difference in what you have time and energy for.
Having a job that lets you focus is also a big part. Being on a team where you context switch 2 or 3 times a day because something is on fire vs just focusing on one thing all day, no 2 or 3 hours of meeting leaves you less exhausted as well.
Definitely a big part of it. A job where your manager/boss doesn't hold you to unreasonable output, implicit overtime requirements, and one where your manager/boss respects you enough to not do that is a big thing, makes a big difference in what you have time and energy for.
Having a job that lets you focus is also a big part. Being on a team where you context switch 2 or 3 times a day because something is on fire vs just focusing on one thing all day, no 2 or 3 hours of meeting leaves you less exhausted as well.
This is where I am going wrong. I am supposed to sit at the office for 7-8 hours, and then take work home when something is unfinished, and needs ASAP solving, which happens often.
I often wonder if this is the wrong company or I am in the long line of work.
I am incredibly curious and love to learn new things all the time. If this is what typical "work" looks like, then I may have chosen the wrong line of work.
Remember this is India, and I was happy enough to work in a product based company, as opposed to a service based one. But damn, expectations don't match at all.
I often wonder if this is the wrong company or I am in the long line of work.
I am incredibly curious and love to learn new things all the time. If this is what typical "work" looks like, then I may have chosen the wrong line of work.
Remember this is India, and I was happy enough to work in a product based company, as opposed to a service based one. But damn, expectations don't match at all.
Are you still in India? It's very much a cultural thing, I've seen it first hand from people I've worked with.
But no, not all companies are like that. I can't speak specifically to companies that are based on India or hire in India, those may just seek to perpetuate that culture for their own financial gain.
European people I've worked with were very particular about when they worked and how much time they took off work. They normally get like 5 or 6 or more weeks of paid time off per year.
In North America it's not as employee friendly as Europe, but not every company overworks people. Some do, but not all.
Definitely look around, talk to people you know or have worked with before to better understand your options. Do your interview prep, stay sharp and look for better opportunities. Don't burn yourself out, you'll get nothing out of it, you'll only hurt yourself or your family prioritizing work outside work hours.
I read a comment or a quote, I'll paraphrase it here because I can't remember it exactly: burnout happens when the effort you put in doesn't pay off as you expected in the end.
European people I've worked with were very particular about when they worked and how much time they took off work. They normally get like 5 or 6 or more weeks of paid time off per year.
In North America it's not as employee friendly as Europe, but not every company overworks people. Some do, but not all.
Definitely look around, talk to people you know or have worked with before to better understand your options. Do your interview prep, stay sharp and look for better opportunities. Don't burn yourself out, you'll get nothing out of it, you'll only hurt yourself or your family prioritizing work outside work hours.
I read a comment or a quote, I'll paraphrase it here because I can't remember it exactly: burnout happens when the effort you put in doesn't pay off as you expected in the end.
Yes, I am still in India.
I didn't look around enough and hesitant to migrate to Europe for personal reasons.
I was recruited by a Director directly in this company.
Update: I left the job last week. That's why I couldn’t reply to comments here.
I didn't look around enough and hesitant to migrate to Europe for personal reasons.
I was recruited by a Director directly in this company.
Update: I left the job last week. That's why I couldn’t reply to comments here.
That sounds like a recipe for burnout.
Don't get me wrong, we all have had jobs like that and at certain points of your career is good to have that kind of pressure/grind to quickly progress your skills, but at a certain point you need to give your mind a break.
One thing that I'd try in your situation is to have a talk with your manager and try to allocate a few hours of your week for personal development. "Most" companies should be ok with this as it is usually a win-win for both the employee and the company and that way you'd have time to pursue other technical interests that may or may not be directly related to your job. If this idea doesn't sit well with your manager it might time for you to start updating your linkedIn profile...
Don't get me wrong, we all have had jobs like that and at certain points of your career is good to have that kind of pressure/grind to quickly progress your skills, but at a certain point you need to give your mind a break.
One thing that I'd try in your situation is to have a talk with your manager and try to allocate a few hours of your week for personal development. "Most" companies should be ok with this as it is usually a win-win for both the employee and the company and that way you'd have time to pursue other technical interests that may or may not be directly related to your job. If this idea doesn't sit well with your manager it might time for you to start updating your linkedIn profile...
> There were years that I was working at most 4 hours a day. Now it's closer to the full 8 but the pace of the day is not grueling.
This is my experience too, it's really not bad working a full 8 if you have good coworkers and nobody expects you to work more. It's just that you really have to be cognizant about not letting it creep in. 8.5 hours a day added up over a year of work is a lot more work, less free time, and overall not that much more productive that just 8 but I find it's hard to really limit myself to 8 when I'm in the throws of work for a day. My goal this year is to literally close my computer when the clock strikes 5 and only glance at my phone a couple times in case an emergency comes up.
This is my experience too, it's really not bad working a full 8 if you have good coworkers and nobody expects you to work more. It's just that you really have to be cognizant about not letting it creep in. 8.5 hours a day added up over a year of work is a lot more work, less free time, and overall not that much more productive that just 8 but I find it's hard to really limit myself to 8 when I'm in the throws of work for a day. My goal this year is to literally close my computer when the clock strikes 5 and only glance at my phone a couple times in case an emergency comes up.
I think we all struggle with this, and you need to realize that that's okay. Historically, I've indulged in short-term passion projects that have driven a high degree of learning in a short amount of time. There were also 2 different occasions where I was able to convince my boss to fund some form of on-the-job training where I learned a ton of new programming skills on company time.
In general though, I don't have the energy for it, especially throwing a wife, kids, pets, house upkeep, etc into the mix. Life gets in the way, and that's okay, because that's sort of the point - your life is supposed to come first.
In general though, I don't have the energy for it, especially throwing a wife, kids, pets, house upkeep, etc into the mix. Life gets in the way, and that's okay, because that's sort of the point - your life is supposed to come first.
I am 24, and I know life will get in the way at some point of early 30s, or late 20s. I want that to happen.
Before that happens, I want to learn as much as possible, spread myself over diverse fields of knowledge. That doesn't happen here.
I left the job last week, because I was directly told to work on each Saturday and shamed for working only 7-8 hours where others put 13-14 hours.
Nobody can sustain 13-14 hours each day. Point is, others are not Computer Engineers, and go out to have cigarettes or spend time on FB to "relax". There's no appetite for improvement in most of them. Or a career change. So, they can toe the line and warm the seat for 9-11 hours, and then do more work from home.
Before that happens, I want to learn as much as possible, spread myself over diverse fields of knowledge. That doesn't happen here.
I left the job last week, because I was directly told to work on each Saturday and shamed for working only 7-8 hours where others put 13-14 hours.
Nobody can sustain 13-14 hours each day. Point is, others are not Computer Engineers, and go out to have cigarettes or spend time on FB to "relax". There's no appetite for improvement in most of them. Or a career change. So, they can toe the line and warm the seat for 9-11 hours, and then do more work from home.
I've found that there is a natural cycle to it:
1. Start a job, and be swamped with learning it, getting better at it. No time (or reason) to focus on anything else.
2. Job learning is done, you are cruising at your work, if not coasting, and you enjoy some time living a decent balance.
3. You get bored, but can do your job just fine at 50%, so you then spend a couple hours a day learning something new.
4. You've learned something new and can start looking for a new job. (Maybe externally, maybe a promotion or lateral move at your current gig.)
That cycle takes a couple years to play out. You are a couple months into it. Give it time.
1. Start a job, and be swamped with learning it, getting better at it. No time (or reason) to focus on anything else.
2. Job learning is done, you are cruising at your work, if not coasting, and you enjoy some time living a decent balance.
3. You get bored, but can do your job just fine at 50%, so you then spend a couple hours a day learning something new.
4. You've learned something new and can start looking for a new job. (Maybe externally, maybe a promotion or lateral move at your current gig.)
That cycle takes a couple years to play out. You are a couple months into it. Give it time.
I did most of my first MS degree part-time over a few years of my early 20s, while working full-time on pretty intense software development. I was seriously sleep-deprived at times (for one period, frequently had to dig fingernail painfully into hand during morning class, because was getting microsleeps). And I went from having a great girlfriend, to not having a social life for a long time. I wouldn't recommend this, in most cases.
Some ideas:
* Make sure you're getting good nutrition, exercise, and sleep. You need your machine working well near-term, and long-term.
* Is your office job sedentary? Are you alternating with standing desk, moving around? Is the office job draining because you're using your brain, or because you're not using your brain, or because you're unhappy, or because you're stressed?
* Is all your time at the office job productive? Can you reduce the time it takes to do the work, change what the work is, or reduce the time spent on non-work things?
* Can you get rid of your commute? Or at least switch it from driving or hectic hopping between buses/subways, to transit where you can focus and read a bit?
* Are you getting frequent good interaction with friends & family? It should be energizing, mood-boosting, and supportive.
* Can your office job accommodate some of the learning you want to do? (Especially work-related: learn a new tech skill, get a part-time MBA, etc. Or do they do tuition-reimbursement and schedule flexibility during the day for taking college classes?)
* Relaxing has value, but are there "relaxing" time sinks that aren't worthwhile, and you'd be happier and better off spending much of that time more productively. Maybe it's too much video games, or too much video streaming, or too much social media (including HN).
* Don't over-stress yourself. Powering through stress has long-term costs.
Some ideas:
* Make sure you're getting good nutrition, exercise, and sleep. You need your machine working well near-term, and long-term.
* Is your office job sedentary? Are you alternating with standing desk, moving around? Is the office job draining because you're using your brain, or because you're not using your brain, or because you're unhappy, or because you're stressed?
* Is all your time at the office job productive? Can you reduce the time it takes to do the work, change what the work is, or reduce the time spent on non-work things?
* Can you get rid of your commute? Or at least switch it from driving or hectic hopping between buses/subways, to transit where you can focus and read a bit?
* Are you getting frequent good interaction with friends & family? It should be energizing, mood-boosting, and supportive.
* Can your office job accommodate some of the learning you want to do? (Especially work-related: learn a new tech skill, get a part-time MBA, etc. Or do they do tuition-reimbursement and schedule flexibility during the day for taking college classes?)
* Relaxing has value, but are there "relaxing" time sinks that aren't worthwhile, and you'd be happier and better off spending much of that time more productively. Maybe it's too much video games, or too much video streaming, or too much social media (including HN).
* Don't over-stress yourself. Powering through stress has long-term costs.
This is the problem with instagram. Influencers setting extremely high standards of life in luxury. How can a young girl keep up?
It’s so easy to see when it’s someone else. But us tech folk have our own demons. Yes, there are exceptional people, but there’s also millions of happy mediums that have hobbies and enjoy learning stuff that they find the time to do.
Hacker News is everything every tech person could possibly be interested in and more. Read a while, find the stuff you enjoy. The rest, let it pass. Don’t hold yourself to the HN influencer standard.
As a test, think of how many times you see the same persons blog on here detailing something extremely intricate and interesting. There’s a few regulars but most are one off or once a year posts.
It’s so easy to see when it’s someone else. But us tech folk have our own demons. Yes, there are exceptional people, but there’s also millions of happy mediums that have hobbies and enjoy learning stuff that they find the time to do.
Hacker News is everything every tech person could possibly be interested in and more. Read a while, find the stuff you enjoy. The rest, let it pass. Don’t hold yourself to the HN influencer standard.
As a test, think of how many times you see the same persons blog on here detailing something extremely intricate and interesting. There’s a few regulars but most are one off or once a year posts.
What you say, makes sense.
But where I was, there was no clear boundary between my work and more work.
When I am done with my work, I am handed others' work. So, zero time to learn other things and grow. Or read books. Or anything, really.
So, I quit last week.
But where I was, there was no clear boundary between my work and more work.
When I am done with my work, I am handed others' work. So, zero time to learn other things and grow. Or read books. Or anything, really.
So, I quit last week.
Lots of good advice in this thread, but I'll add my two cents:
First, learn your job. It's a new job, so there should be plenty to learn. Learn the tech stack, the processes and procedures, study the people and the social dynamics. All of that will be helpful in you being the most productive you can.
Second, learn at your job. Once you've achieved a comfortable level of productivity at your job, it should be expected that you will (responsibly) take time to learn new things. Most of those should probably be fairly closely related to your current projects, but some things will be more exploratory. It is part of your job to learn what you need to do you job better.
Third, learn one thing at a time. Maybe you are really into learning a musical instrument, so you spend a few nights a week practicing chords or learning a new song. Maybe it is functional programming and you spend a your commutes listening to famous talks on FP. But don't think you can do it all at once. The people who seem to have it all still probably got there one bit at a time.
Fourth, learn what you want to learn. Overtime, if you manage your energy and time, you will find that there are things you do have enough passion and energy to work on and you will find time to fit it in.
And remember, it is good to try and push yourself while you are young, but remember that is a marathon, not a sprint.
First, learn your job. It's a new job, so there should be plenty to learn. Learn the tech stack, the processes and procedures, study the people and the social dynamics. All of that will be helpful in you being the most productive you can.
Second, learn at your job. Once you've achieved a comfortable level of productivity at your job, it should be expected that you will (responsibly) take time to learn new things. Most of those should probably be fairly closely related to your current projects, but some things will be more exploratory. It is part of your job to learn what you need to do you job better.
Third, learn one thing at a time. Maybe you are really into learning a musical instrument, so you spend a few nights a week practicing chords or learning a new song. Maybe it is functional programming and you spend a your commutes listening to famous talks on FP. But don't think you can do it all at once. The people who seem to have it all still probably got there one bit at a time.
Fourth, learn what you want to learn. Overtime, if you manage your energy and time, you will find that there are things you do have enough passion and energy to work on and you will find time to fit it in.
And remember, it is good to try and push yourself while you are young, but remember that is a marathon, not a sprint.
I'm 45. I don't do any of the things you're talking about doing outside work. I also have a wife and 4 kids. There's just not time. I don't feel bad about it either. I hate that I have waste so much time on this boring computer stuff to pay my bills, but otherwise, I'm spending my very limited time how I want to be spending it.
When I hear about people doing something like a Rust project for fun outside of work I assume they either have zero social life or are very young.
When I hear about people doing something like a Rust project for fun outside of work I assume they either have zero social life or are very young.
44 here! This is what it’s to be middle aged!
To me it’s not weird to do some Rust programming out of work.
What is weird is if people believe it would be some sort of virtue.
If it’s fun for the person, great! If it’s not fun and you are not getting paid for it - maybe rather find something you like to do.
To me it’s not weird to do some Rust programming out of work.
What is weird is if people believe it would be some sort of virtue.
If it’s fun for the person, great! If it’s not fun and you are not getting paid for it - maybe rather find something you like to do.
That sounds like a pretty good life! But I think for someone 20 years your junior at the beginning of their career, they probably should be pushing themselves pretty hard.
But even for those of us who are more established, I think it can be a good thing to dial back our social lives from time to time and invest in building and maintaining our career capital. That is especially true if you find work boring. It is totally fine to be bored at work for a time, but long term that is a sign of stagnation. Stagnation, in turn, can leave you in a vulnerable place when market conditions turn for the worse.
But even for those of us who are more established, I think it can be a good thing to dial back our social lives from time to time and invest in building and maintaining our career capital. That is especially true if you find work boring. It is totally fine to be bored at work for a time, but long term that is a sign of stagnation. Stagnation, in turn, can leave you in a vulnerable place when market conditions turn for the worse.
You are in for plenty of surprises.
You can prioritise anything, if coding is fun for you you can find the time. (3 kids, 30s).
Same for exercise, and pretty much anything else
You can prioritise anything, if coding is fun for you you can find the time. (3 kids, 30s).
Same for exercise, and pretty much anything else
I've been reading the book Atomic Habits, recommended by a former work colleague. It's about building small habits that over time pay off in dividends. Like one great example from the author was that he started a blog about his habits, he made it a point to post every week on the same two days, he built a mailing list to tens of thousands, to hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and it wasn't some overnight success, that led to a book deal. It took years, but the consistency helped. Maybe its taking a 30 minutes after your work day to read some technical books, or watch videos on subjects of interest (2x speed sometimes helps to absorb it quicker too).
You just have to build up the habits for yourself, and over time, you'll be surprised how effective it is. I'm still early in the book, but this is all from the first few pages I've gotten through.
Edit more personal anecdote:
I still remember my first job, I'd work work work, and when I'd get home I wouldn't do anything other than spend time with my girlfriend (now wife) or watch movies / shows just to de-thaw from the work. Now I unplug after working. I think once you get used to the routine at work, you go back to normal speed.
You just have to build up the habits for yourself, and over time, you'll be surprised how effective it is. I'm still early in the book, but this is all from the first few pages I've gotten through.
Edit more personal anecdote:
I still remember my first job, I'd work work work, and when I'd get home I wouldn't do anything other than spend time with my girlfriend (now wife) or watch movies / shows just to de-thaw from the work. Now I unplug after working. I think once you get used to the routine at work, you go back to normal speed.
> I barely have any cognitive or physical energy to do any mentally taxing work even if that means learning something new and exciting
When I was in this situation, I found learning or doing side-project work in the morning, before leaving for work, to be a substantially better approach. I'd get up at 5AM and work until 7AM. It made me excited to go to bed and felt like I was giving the best hours of my day to myself.
When I was in this situation, I found learning or doing side-project work in the morning, before leaving for work, to be a substantially better approach. I'd get up at 5AM and work until 7AM. It made me excited to go to bed and felt like I was giving the best hours of my day to myself.
+1 for this. I think of it as momentum. Whatever I start my day with sets the tone for my day as a whole. Changing my personal growth time to the morning is probably the best change I ever made for myself.
Get rid of the commute. Waste of your life right there. Either move closer to work or find another job that lets you work remotely or closer to where you live.
Get a job that lets you learn at work. I don't really need to learn much at home because I learn so much at work.
Don't socialise. Seriously. Whether this is a good idea or not is up to you. But you merely asked how to find time to learn.
Get a job that lets you learn at work. I don't really need to learn much at home because I learn so much at work.
Don't socialise. Seriously. Whether this is a good idea or not is up to you. But you merely asked how to find time to learn.
I don't have Instagram, Facebook, TikTok accounts. I don't watch Netflix. I don't play video games.
Magically, I have hours per week to read books.
Magically, I have hours per week to read books.
> I am 24, young, and naive.
when you are just starting your career, you're not just working, you're learning how to work (ideally through mentorships, but typically through just building experience in your field)
over time, you'll find yourself building up skills and being able to finish 8 hours of work in 7 hours, then after some more time it only takes 6, and eventually half of your work day becomes reading articles and 'learning'
it's not an on-off switch, but a steady progression towards supplanting your busy work with 'smart' work, good luck :)
when you are just starting your career, you're not just working, you're learning how to work (ideally through mentorships, but typically through just building experience in your field)
over time, you'll find yourself building up skills and being able to finish 8 hours of work in 7 hours, then after some more time it only takes 6, and eventually half of your work day becomes reading articles and 'learning'
it's not an on-off switch, but a steady progression towards supplanting your busy work with 'smart' work, good luck :)
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For a year or two, I woke up one hour earlier and did one thing for one hour. I sort of set myself an objective like “in this hour I’ll try and do xxx”. The evening is hard.
I'm 23. I'm not sure how long your commute is, but I know that driving takes a mental toll no matter how long.
I'm enrolled full-time in school while also being full-time employed. Most of my time spent outside of work during the week is spent studying for my courses. Thankfully, however, these are all interesting and align with my goals.
Other than that, I simply take time that I would spend watching a movie or playing a game and assign it to project work. I, however, do personal projects in bursts where I'm fixated on it for over a week or two and have a period of dormancy before I continue back down another rabbit hole.
I'm not sure how your sleep is, but that was one of the biggest detractors from my motivation to actually do anything more than the bare minimum to function. I'd say I was chronically overslept for two years or more. Since I've refocused and improved my sleep, despite working a full-time job, I find it 1000 orders of magnitude easier to do more than the bare minimum. Maybe look there and see?
I'm enrolled full-time in school while also being full-time employed. Most of my time spent outside of work during the week is spent studying for my courses. Thankfully, however, these are all interesting and align with my goals.
Other than that, I simply take time that I would spend watching a movie or playing a game and assign it to project work. I, however, do personal projects in bursts where I'm fixated on it for over a week or two and have a period of dormancy before I continue back down another rabbit hole.
I'm not sure how your sleep is, but that was one of the biggest detractors from my motivation to actually do anything more than the bare minimum to function. I'd say I was chronically overslept for two years or more. Since I've refocused and improved my sleep, despite working a full-time job, I find it 1000 orders of magnitude easier to do more than the bare minimum. Maybe look there and see?
It's understandable to feel overwhelmed by the demands of a full-time job, especially when trying to balance personal interests and hobbies. Many people struggle with finding the time and energy to pursue their passions outside of work.
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When I was 24 I would spend almost the entire weekend in the local bookstore or library, as far from any distractions as possible, and work through programming and CS books (and a few others) on my reading list. I would also sometimes stay after work and do the problem sets on my work computer.
The only other alternative is to go back to graduate school and be a full-time student again.
The only other alternative is to go back to graduate school and be a full-time student again.
At 24 I mostly played video games and avoided studying for my MSc (which I passed a few years later despite my best efforts to flunk it). Then I found what I really like, dropped out from a PhD program, and am now two decades later pretty good at it.
Everyone has their own path. If it’s aligned with existing formal education and literature, that’s awesome. But there are other paths as well.
Everyone has their own path. If it’s aligned with existing formal education and literature, that’s awesome. But there are other paths as well.
I learned a musical instrument in elementary school. I never forgot how to play. So don't sweat that. I didn't do sports as a kid, I don't need to start now.
Dating back to your age, I probably have a hundred unfinished projects, and dozens of finished projects, that I regret not writing up. If I had done that, I'd have a super impressive looking personal page. I don't. Instead, I'm a nobody and I don't start now because it'd look like noob shit but I'm almost done going gray.
Do a small thing when you have time. Write it up. Don't sweat the polish. Don't plan on finishing. Just do stuff that's enjoyable, and document it a little.
And, forget all that stuff. Do you have time for exercise, and a social life? Feed your body, feed your soul, first. I haven't always been great at that. The darkest times of my life have been caused or at least exacerbated by a single-minded focus on mental pursuits.
Dating back to your age, I probably have a hundred unfinished projects, and dozens of finished projects, that I regret not writing up. If I had done that, I'd have a super impressive looking personal page. I don't. Instead, I'm a nobody and I don't start now because it'd look like noob shit but I'm almost done going gray.
Do a small thing when you have time. Write it up. Don't sweat the polish. Don't plan on finishing. Just do stuff that's enjoyable, and document it a little.
And, forget all that stuff. Do you have time for exercise, and a social life? Feed your body, feed your soul, first. I haven't always been great at that. The darkest times of my life have been caused or at least exacerbated by a single-minded focus on mental pursuits.
Most people overestimate what they can achieve in a year and underestimate what they can achieve in ten years. Bill Gates
If you decide to learn the lyre today, a year hence you’ll still be a beginner. But by the time you’re forty you will be good at it, modulo quitting because the lyre is not for you. But even if you quit tomorrow but took it back up at forty, you could be pretty good by the time you’re sixty.
Which suggests that your interests will change over time as you learn more about the world and more importantly more about yourself.
One thing worth learning is that not only can you no longer keep up, but that the periods where you felt you were keeping up were an hallucination. There’s simply too much and humans are too little…
…the feeling of keeping up is the result of keeping out at worst and ordinary ignorance at best.
So just learn what you learn and enjoy the time you get to do it.
Good luck.
If you decide to learn the lyre today, a year hence you’ll still be a beginner. But by the time you’re forty you will be good at it, modulo quitting because the lyre is not for you. But even if you quit tomorrow but took it back up at forty, you could be pretty good by the time you’re sixty.
Which suggests that your interests will change over time as you learn more about the world and more importantly more about yourself.
One thing worth learning is that not only can you no longer keep up, but that the periods where you felt you were keeping up were an hallucination. There’s simply too much and humans are too little…
…the feeling of keeping up is the result of keeping out at worst and ordinary ignorance at best.
So just learn what you learn and enjoy the time you get to do it.
Good luck.
'24, young, and naive' - only thing better than this is being 23 :)
Seriously don't sweat it. I'm - well ok pretty old and sadly not naive in areas where it counts. I still find time not because I believe in Hussle culture nor because I have Uber energy and time. It's just desperation (family, mortgage, visa constraints and financial situation pointing to a bleak retirement future) - lot of it partly because I wasted my 20s and large chunks of 30s.
Point is if you need fear to be a motivator - simple don't end up like me :)
If you want passion as a motivator, pace yourself, don't burn yourself out and be consistent - say 15-30-60 mins a day of carved out time as you build up your reserves. Don't aim for the endgame. Focus on the journey. You are not racing against anybody else!
Seriously don't sweat it. I'm - well ok pretty old and sadly not naive in areas where it counts. I still find time not because I believe in Hussle culture nor because I have Uber energy and time. It's just desperation (family, mortgage, visa constraints and financial situation pointing to a bleak retirement future) - lot of it partly because I wasted my 20s and large chunks of 30s.
Point is if you need fear to be a motivator - simple don't end up like me :)
If you want passion as a motivator, pace yourself, don't burn yourself out and be consistent - say 15-30-60 mins a day of carved out time as you build up your reserves. Don't aim for the endgame. Focus on the journey. You are not racing against anybody else!
Priorities.
We all have 24 hours, there is no "finding time", it is just prioritising one thing over the another.
In the mids of my booming (cough) career, I was blessed with 4 children within 5 years. My prios shifted and still I was able to progress in my job, maintain social contacts and sleep :)
Turns out I was maxing my work hours to the absolute max before, and with far less pure time spend doing my job, I reached the same quality & respect. I had been spending my energy / time wrong / sub optimal.
Since that "revelation" I can do soo much more, that I deem important. Including spending very serious quality time with my children & partner. Much more than I was able before.
We all have 24 hours, there is no "finding time", it is just prioritising one thing over the another.
In the mids of my booming (cough) career, I was blessed with 4 children within 5 years. My prios shifted and still I was able to progress in my job, maintain social contacts and sleep :)
Turns out I was maxing my work hours to the absolute max before, and with far less pure time spend doing my job, I reached the same quality & respect. I had been spending my energy / time wrong / sub optimal.
Since that "revelation" I can do soo much more, that I deem important. Including spending very serious quality time with my children & partner. Much more than I was able before.
That makes sense.
But I work at a startup with no startup benefits and yet all the negative sides.
Once I end a project/make some progress, or even before that, I am handed another project/responsibility.
I can barely breathe.
With that, the unhealthy obsession with warming your chair for longer hours is mixed.
I am so exhausted. I can barely do anything else.
But I work at a startup with no startup benefits and yet all the negative sides.
Once I end a project/make some progress, or even before that, I am handed another project/responsibility.
I can barely breathe.
With that, the unhealthy obsession with warming your chair for longer hours is mixed.
I am so exhausted. I can barely do anything else.
> Since I started working at a regular job in an office two months back
Starting a new job is demanding, just give it time: in a few months things will look more ordinary/boring and then you will have more mental energy after work :)
Starting a new job is demanding, just give it time: in a few months things will look more ordinary/boring and then you will have more mental energy after work :)
> With the commute, solid 8 hours at office, I barely have any cognitive or physical energy to do any mentally taxing work even if that means learning something new and exciting.
Address the energy thing. Diet, sleep, daily habits etc.
But also recognize that software work is incredibly taxing. I balance it with workouts, instruments, socializing, diy crafting.. and definitely not evening Rust projects. That's the same energy bar.
The people who do impressive side projects on top of a taxing 9-5 are built differently. It gives those people energy (or maybe moreso joy) to do that. Don't try to be someone you're not.
Address the energy thing. Diet, sleep, daily habits etc.
But also recognize that software work is incredibly taxing. I balance it with workouts, instruments, socializing, diy crafting.. and definitely not evening Rust projects. That's the same energy bar.
The people who do impressive side projects on top of a taxing 9-5 are built differently. It gives those people energy (or maybe moreso joy) to do that. Don't try to be someone you're not.
I would differentiate between full-time job and having to commute. My role went from being in the office to full remote, and during that transition I started a part time masters program. I literally use the hour before and after work to do school work when I would have been commuting instead.
I had to go into the office twice this week and it was immediately apparent that commuting is a huge drain on my mental and temporal capacity for learning.
I had to go into the office twice this week and it was immediately apparent that commuting is a huge drain on my mental and temporal capacity for learning.
I think this is just the beginning, give yourself some time, the learning curve is always steep at the beginning, especially when you start or change job, so you may feel overwhelmed. It is only a matter of time, what today needs 8 hours, tomorrow will take less time and you will start to gain back your time.
Of course if you can cut the commuting time, or work some days remotely, that will add more time for other activities that you can do. Do you really need to go everyday to the office?
Of course if you can cut the commuting time, or work some days remotely, that will add more time for other activities that you can do. Do you really need to go everyday to the office?
Number of things here.
1) If you have partner and kid(s), give up for a decade and try again. Sounds like you don't.
2) Each job has different requirements. Find one not so mentally taxing. As others mentioned, a new job gets easier after six months as you get comfortable.
3) Eliminate the commute. Once had a job with 90 mins of heavy traffic in the morning. That lasted less than a week. Instead rented a studio about a mile from work and strolled into work each morning refreshed instead of angry. It wasn't cheap but I was able to be happy again.
1) If you have partner and kid(s), give up for a decade and try again. Sounds like you don't.
2) Each job has different requirements. Find one not so mentally taxing. As others mentioned, a new job gets easier after six months as you get comfortable.
3) Eliminate the commute. Once had a job with 90 mins of heavy traffic in the morning. That lasted less than a week. Instead rented a studio about a mile from work and strolled into work each morning refreshed instead of angry. It wasn't cheap but I was able to be happy again.
Dealing with something new demands a lot of energy. On top of the rational side of the new role, there is an iceberg of social learning and anxiety. You are not only finding your space in this new tribe but crafting it in every new interaction. Give yourself time to fully immerse in this challenge. In my opinion, is more important to use the after hours to take care of your personal life and build mental resiliance. In time, your curiosity for new topics will surface once again.
I have weeks where my full-time job is 55 hours. I also have weeks where it’s 25. So, I do more extracurriculars on the light weeks and none on the heavy weeks.
I study for an hour every morning on a subject I enjoy right after I finish my first cup of coffee - right now I’m learning Japanese but I’ve done other things like building apps or reading history books. Main thing is always making sure it’s something I’m personally interested in, and I don’t multithread. Interestingly time bounding myself makes it more fun because I look forward to coming back to it vs getting tired of it
My process
1 utilize commute time. If you drive: podcasts about things you want to get better at. If you are on a commuter rail (where it’s normal to laptop) mooc or side projects.
2 temptation bundle: you get to do a fun thing if you do the learning etc thing first
3 micro learning: make it easy to pick up your phone and read a few pages vs wherever else you spend your time. Load the book into your reader, download the class for offline etc
1 utilize commute time. If you drive: podcasts about things you want to get better at. If you are on a commuter rail (where it’s normal to laptop) mooc or side projects.
2 temptation bundle: you get to do a fun thing if you do the learning etc thing first
3 micro learning: make it easy to pick up your phone and read a few pages vs wherever else you spend your time. Load the book into your reader, download the class for offline etc
I have very little time and tend to be exhausted when I am free, so I make frustratingly slow progress on things I do outside work (currently learning electronics), but I just keep at it. There are no deadlines and it's remarkable what you can get done with just snippets of time here and there if you're patient and don't give up.
I lift weights, I have 90 seconds break in between each set, I read books in those 90-120 seconds chunk (in 1 hour it adds up to almost 30 minutes)
People have more or less stamina.
People may do very little work at their daily job.
Tracking performance is hard.
Pace yourself at work or maybe find a job with less demands and no commute.
You need the experience growth or time for side projects if you want to leave the rat race and make income in a different way than selling your time.
Pace yourself at work or maybe find a job with less demands and no commute.
You need the experience growth or time for side projects if you want to leave the rat race and make income in a different way than selling your time.
If your employer doesn't offer time for professional development, they are a bad employer, and you should look for one that does.
The unfortunate reality is that the last few years have shown that a lot more companies are bad employers than had shown their true colors before.
The unfortunate reality is that the last few years have shown that a lot more companies are bad employers than had shown their true colors before.
I find that it goes in phases, you can't sustain it all the time. I have fallow periods when I just get my head down at work and relax afterwards.
Then I get some consuming interest and I find I have the energy to work on it outside work for a few months or a year.
Then I get some consuming interest and I find I have the energy to work on it outside work for a few months or a year.
Don't be looking for time after full time job, look for time during full time job
If applied correctly this is good advice. Let your employer know that you want to learn. I'd much rather have the folks on my team learn OJT than try to hire that skill.
i moved to 4 day work week with a small pay reduction.
I spend Fridays and some evening on learning and side projects. might earn a bit less now, but then i can be sure that my skills and knowledge will stay relevant
Honestly? If I was 24, I'd quit, go back to my parents house work my ass off try to start my own business. Or, live extra frugally for a few months, save as much money and then quit & try start a business or something on the side.
You DO NOT want to be an employee going forward.
What you're doing right now is a waste of time and offers no security whatsoever. I know because I've been there.
You DO NOT want to be an employee going forward.
What you're doing right now is a waste of time and offers no security whatsoever. I know because I've been there.
> You DO NOT want to be an employee going forward.
Emphasizing this point as well.
Tech is a competitive industry, and is slowly catching on to the fact that it doesn't require lots of people to get results.
Emphasizing this point as well.
Tech is a competitive industry, and is slowly catching on to the fact that it doesn't require lots of people to get results.
Let the existential anguish of your office job be the fire that pushes you onto something a bit better.
Rinse and repeat every 4-7 years.
Rinse and repeat every 4-7 years.
As others have suggested, be kind to yourself. Inspiration comes and goes, and the key is to ride it when it comes.
I used to feel a strong need to work on side project early in my career, that I had to keep up with trends and test out new languages (software developer by trade). Since having a kid I realized how precious little time I have and discovered the need to feel in control of what I spend it on. If I want to zone out one evening watching Youtube videos, that's ok, as long as I decide to do so.
Last year I had long periods of time where the only thing I'd do in my "me time" was reading. I plowed through most of Ryk Brown's Frontiers Saga (read 40 something books before summer), then completely stopped reading for the rest of the year and dove deep into teaching myself PCB design (made a SNES Macropad and put it on Tindie). Right now I've slipped into 3d printing and mechanical CAD, but the goal is to get back into electronics and tackle another keyboard design.
The key I think is to find projects that really interest you. Doing something in your spare time because you feel you "should" do them is a recipe for failure and misery. For me it was abandoning the idea that I'd learn to play the guitar and get fluent in Spanish, if I ever get a true passion for either there will always be time in the future.
One last thing to keep in mind is that what ends up on Hacker News is perhaps not your Average Joe. The internet is great for bringing people together, but it's easy to get sucked into a bubble thinking you have to be like John Carmack or you might as well give up.
I used to feel a strong need to work on side project early in my career, that I had to keep up with trends and test out new languages (software developer by trade). Since having a kid I realized how precious little time I have and discovered the need to feel in control of what I spend it on. If I want to zone out one evening watching Youtube videos, that's ok, as long as I decide to do so.
Last year I had long periods of time where the only thing I'd do in my "me time" was reading. I plowed through most of Ryk Brown's Frontiers Saga (read 40 something books before summer), then completely stopped reading for the rest of the year and dove deep into teaching myself PCB design (made a SNES Macropad and put it on Tindie). Right now I've slipped into 3d printing and mechanical CAD, but the goal is to get back into electronics and tackle another keyboard design.
The key I think is to find projects that really interest you. Doing something in your spare time because you feel you "should" do them is a recipe for failure and misery. For me it was abandoning the idea that I'd learn to play the guitar and get fluent in Spanish, if I ever get a true passion for either there will always be time in the future.
One last thing to keep in mind is that what ends up on Hacker News is perhaps not your Average Joe. The internet is great for bringing people together, but it's easy to get sucked into a bubble thinking you have to be like John Carmack or you might as well give up.
Commute by train or limousine or self driving cyber truck, use commute time to read/learn. Read on the toilet at work. Drink more coffee, stay up late to stack new skills. Avoid the pussy trap. Grind harder. Call your dad for advice and follow it.
> With the commute, solid 8 hours at office, I barely have any cognitive or physical energy to do any mentally taxing work
start with identifying why are you so exhausted after only 8 hours
There is already a ton of a good advice here, but you can't follow them if you don't have the energy to do so.
start with identifying why are you so exhausted after only 8 hours
There is already a ton of a good advice here, but you can't follow them if you don't have the energy to do so.
A lot of full time jobs are not full time work. I have a friend who completed a masters degree, full time, all while working full time. If you do things correctly, a full time job can not even involve doing any real work in a given day.
He was a data analyst who was tasked with this daily report. He automated it and hid the automation, so for two years he did pretty much nothing until his degree was finished.
I have two full time (albeit remote) jobs and two part time admin/data processing jobs. ChatGPT and Copilot let me do far more work in the same amount of time but officially are not permitted, so I just sit on the work for days to ensure that I only produce at the same rate as everyone else. The two admin/data processing jobs are also nearly fully automated. I introduce random defects to the work product to keep expectations from rising.
I work fewer than 25 hours a week net now. Leaves lots of time for reading.
Figure out how to improve your productivity, but make sure your employer doesn't benefit from it. You can keep that improvement for yourself.
He was a data analyst who was tasked with this daily report. He automated it and hid the automation, so for two years he did pretty much nothing until his degree was finished.
I have two full time (albeit remote) jobs and two part time admin/data processing jobs. ChatGPT and Copilot let me do far more work in the same amount of time but officially are not permitted, so I just sit on the work for days to ensure that I only produce at the same rate as everyone else. The two admin/data processing jobs are also nearly fully automated. I introduce random defects to the work product to keep expectations from rising.
I work fewer than 25 hours a week net now. Leaves lots of time for reading.
Figure out how to improve your productivity, but make sure your employer doesn't benefit from it. You can keep that improvement for yourself.
I just had to go through the firing process for a contractor like this guy. It was miserable for everyone. Don't be like this guy.
1. If he got caught, he wasn't doing it correctly. I don't get negative feedback. I just know to avoid getting praise. I strive to be a reliable and hard to notice drone.
2. Would he consider his time there miserable? He probably made off with tens of thousands he would not otherwise have.
2. Would he consider his time there miserable? He probably made off with tens of thousands he would not otherwise have.
It's impressive you are managing to hold that many jobs at once and still work so little, well done! At my current job of 2 years (I have just the one), I am being worked to the bone and my health is suffering. I consider myself very productive and think that employers tend to exploit that.
I like the sound of working multiple jobs with reasonably low responsibility, e.g. admin/data processing type jobs that are easily automatible. I'd like to give this a shot to see if it makes me happier in life.
Do you have any tips you could share please on 1) how to find these jobs, and 2) how to juggle simultaneous jobs without your employers caring or finding out?
I like the sound of working multiple jobs with reasonably low responsibility, e.g. admin/data processing type jobs that are easily automatible. I'd like to give this a shot to see if it makes me happier in life.
Do you have any tips you could share please on 1) how to find these jobs, and 2) how to juggle simultaneous jobs without your employers caring or finding out?
1. Just scroll through all remote jobs and see what you can find that seems like automation should be able to handle. I literally review some 500 job postings a day to find opportunities like that. What can be automated is going to be based on your own capabilities and experiences. Ideally, it is something in which you have a bit of domain expertise.
2. Do your work. Deliver your work. But not too well. Be a bit unreliable. Never go the extra mile. Be the person who seems disinterested or disengaged. Ace your main goals, but fail your stretch goals. I want to be the person they trust enough to give work regularly to, but someone who they see no future potential in. The reliable cog in the machine unfit for any other purpose. Find ways to do things better, but don't share them. That is how you get your time back. Someone who does their work but is otherwise nothing special gets no attention.
2. Do your work. Deliver your work. But not too well. Be a bit unreliable. Never go the extra mile. Be the person who seems disinterested or disengaged. Ace your main goals, but fail your stretch goals. I want to be the person they trust enough to give work regularly to, but someone who they see no future potential in. The reliable cog in the machine unfit for any other purpose. Find ways to do things better, but don't share them. That is how you get your time back. Someone who does their work but is otherwise nothing special gets no attention.
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Also, so many great comments where people show amazing knowledge across multiple fields.
There are many among us who keep learning new things, good at math, play a musical instrument, and manage to make truly insightful theoretical comment on an AI thread while having a full-time job?
My question is: where do you find the time?
I worked as an independent consultant for about 2.5 years and I could find the time learn new things and delving deep into topics that I liked, beyond my need.
Since I started working at a regular job in an office two months back, I don't get enough time to even watch YT videos off of the feed. With the commute, solid 8 hours at office, I barely have any cognitive or physical energy to do any mentally taxing work even if that means learning something new and exciting.
How do you peeps manage? After having a full time job, how do manage to read the latest Doctorow article, having already read Master and Margarita years back, while knowing how to play a musical instrument, and working on a cool Rust project?
How do you even manage? I feel like, if I continue full time office job, I will have to give everything else up. Is it even possible to have a full time tech job and maintaining my culture?
I used to, but can't do anymore.
I am 24, young, and naive. Please excuse my ignorance, and be kind.