Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable(ifixit.com)
ifixit.com
Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable
https://www.ifixit.com/News/101675/bike-manufacturers-are-making-bikes-less-repairable
213 comments
That's awesome!
Minor grammar tip - saying "since 2 years" is a tell that you're a non-native speaker. It's a common mistake that most people will understand, but the correct phrasing is "for 2 years."
I'm sure this is a pitch you practice a lot, so I wanted to help for next time.
Minor grammar tip - saying "since 2 years" is a tell that you're a non-native speaker. It's a common mistake that most people will understand, but the correct phrasing is "for 2 years."
I'm sure this is a pitch you practice a lot, so I wanted to help for next time.
Thank you!! Appreciated :)
Alternately, “since two years ago” works too.
“Since” goes with a particular moment in time (rather than an amount of time) to refer to the period between that time and now, like an old restaurant saying “making pizza since 1922” or for recent events like “since yesterday.”
“Since” goes with a particular moment in time (rather than an amount of time) to refer to the period between that time and now, like an old restaurant saying “making pizza since 1922” or for recent events like “since yesterday.”
'Since two years ago' is still awkward. Generally a native speaker would choose the phrasing 'for the last two years.'
The other two examples work, though 'since yesterday' is still slightly forced unless its an answer to a direct question.
The other two examples work, though 'since yesterday' is still slightly forced unless its an answer to a direct question.
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Why does configuration require a closed-source app, with an account on your proprietary platform?
There is no required account :)
The app just allows to connect over Bluetooth to the battery if you want to set a wifi password to retrieve your data and set alerts!
It also lets you configure your battery for any type of e-bike system
The app just allows to connect over Bluetooth to the battery if you want to set a wifi password to retrieve your data and set alerts!
It also lets you configure your battery for any type of e-bike system
"Required" is hiding the ball here. There's desirable functionality - that you're touting in your sales pitch! - that isn't accessible without your client software, and it sure looks like https://clients.gouach.com/ won't do anything without a login.
https://docs.gouach.com/connected-batteries/monitoring-inter... explicitly states "In order to access the connectivity features, you will need a Gouach client account."
None of this is the end of the world, and I'm glad the batteries will continue to work as batteries after you go out of business, but it does come off as hypocritical given your big talk about repairability.
https://docs.gouach.com/connected-batteries/monitoring-inter... explicitly states "In order to access the connectivity features, you will need a Gouach client account."
None of this is the end of the world, and I'm glad the batteries will continue to work as batteries after you go out of business, but it does come off as hypocritical given your big talk about repairability.
Web page claims the app is being open-sourced.
It's the "account required" part that really bugs me. Implies that everything is routed through some cloud backend that'll shut down one day and then you lose access to all the smarts in your "infinitely repairable" battery.
No, the app is never needed! It's for extra features and configurability
I just read about Gouach on Indiegogo last week ( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/infinite-the-repairable-u... ) -- very cool stuff.
Thanks so much!!
In the thermal runaway video, you have steel bars holding the battery down. Is there risk of the battery casing blowing apart without that steel holding it down?
No! The casing contains the explosion. We just used steel bar to be extra safe, and make sure the batteries don't move while filming
How do you address local heat generation at the interfaces between the cells and the contacts? Does that pose additional risk of cell failure leading to thermal runaway in high current scenarios?
Yes! You can check the technical details on our documentation and our FAQ here (sorry, we're still cleaning up now, but feel free to ask for details)
https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-ques...
We've seen that our design does not pose heating or resistance issues
https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-ques...
We've seen that our design does not pose heating or resistance issues
Which cells did you test with? Is that result valid for other cells?
What is your team's background in battery safety?
What is your team's background in battery safety?
We are using DMEGC INR 18650 cells, which is the best quality/price ratio that we've found, often beating even great brands.
We've developed a LOT of experience on safety after fighting a few fires haha, this is why we added a lot of software and hardware safeties (fuses everywhere, alerts, etc)
Oh and we designed a fireproof casing to be extra-cautious that nothing would happen to our clients! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
We've developed a LOT of experience on safety after fighting a few fires haha, this is why we added a lot of software and hardware safeties (fuses everywhere, alerts, etc)
Oh and we designed a fireproof casing to be extra-cautious that nothing would happen to our clients! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
Are you working with any external lithium ion battery safety specialists?
Hello,
I own a Specialized Vado SL from 2022. Can I use your battery as a range extender?
I own a Specialized Vado SL from 2022. Can I use your battery as a range extender?
Yes! You can use the Datex extender that we sell when you order the battery here https://get.gouach.com
Why does that URL redirect to your indigogo site?
Seems like a perfectly valid question to me. Why the flagging? Redirecting to IndiGoGo makes it look like it's not yet a real product. Linking directly to the product mentioned when the link was provided seems like a much more helpful thing rather than some generic self promotion. So is the product being pitched actually being sold as claimed, or is it hoping to become a product while looking for funding?
So, why is the link redirecting?
So, why is the link redirecting?
Hi! Thanks for the question!
The link was our original pre-launch page, and now redirecting to the Indiegogo campaign!
The product does exist, and is in use, but until now our clients have been B2B, who are able to pay upfront for the commands.
As we are now opening to the general public, and we're a startup, we needed a schema like Indiegogo to get the money upfront and be able to buy the materials to assemble all the batteries!
We're expecting to ship at the end of the year
The link was our original pre-launch page, and now redirecting to the Indiegogo campaign!
The product does exist, and is in use, but until now our clients have been B2B, who are able to pay upfront for the commands.
As we are now opening to the general public, and we're a startup, we needed a schema like Indiegogo to get the money upfront and be able to buy the materials to assemble all the batteries!
We're expecting to ship at the end of the year
>> 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks)
Um... Paris isn't exactly a harsh climate. Send some batteries to me in a month or two and I'll show them winter. Proper winter starts when it stops snowing.
Um... Paris isn't exactly a harsh climate. Send some batteries to me in a month or two and I'll show them winter. Proper winter starts when it stops snowing.
Everything is relative ;-) Hash in the context of places where you'd ride your bike is a very different kind of hash than let's say, the weather on mercury or pluto.
That’s great have you looked into the marine industry?
Not yet! If you have interesting applications or contacts, we'd love to know! Send us an email at [email protected] :)
Work in a bike shop part-time. Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect.
As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."
We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality. I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't need it to just go for a ride.
Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They also want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary direction.
That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that are used in less-integrated installations across bike manufacturers.
As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."
We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality. I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't need it to just go for a ride.
Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They also want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary direction.
That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that are used in less-integrated installations across bike manufacturers.
You're right!
Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch batteries.
Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch battery!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
(the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning to film a new one next week haha)
Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch batteries.
Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch battery!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc
(the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning to film a new one next week haha)
Appreciate the work you're doing, and to be clear: I'm not defending any of Bosch's business practices and vendor lock-in[0]. I do appreciate that they're big enough that they pop up on multiple manufacturers' bikes and that they offer a battery system that looks decent enough that various manufacturers are willing to use it.
[0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their diagnostic software...
[0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their diagnostic software...
Thanks for your message :)
I'd love for the EU (because I know the US won't do it) to start requiring battery standardization. I normally am complaining about power tool batteries, but now that I've started looking at ebikes it's clear that a more general regulation would really benefit consumers.
Exactly! And EU is mandating that light mobility electric batteries be repairable (able to change cells) starting 2027!
Bottom bracket fussing is a tale as old as time. I have a bike from 1983 with an original Suntour bottom bracket. It even uses cartridge bearings! But the spline pattern for the cups is proprietary and the tool has long been out of production.
> Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect.
I agree the various (totally random) BB standards are a pain; every bike build I've done has meant that I CADed and then 3D printed the tool (100% infill PETG, takes ~2 hours on a Prusa MK3S).
Curious how long it is before we get 3D printing tech easy enough to where shops can have a printer, download any special tools for a bike assembly, and make them in a few hours.
Hope is a great example of a manufacturer who does this today: https://www.hopetech.com/open-source-tools/
I agree the various (totally random) BB standards are a pain; every bike build I've done has meant that I CADed and then 3D printed the tool (100% infill PETG, takes ~2 hours on a Prusa MK3S).
Curious how long it is before we get 3D printing tech easy enough to where shops can have a printer, download any special tools for a bike assembly, and make them in a few hours.
Hope is a great example of a manufacturer who does this today: https://www.hopetech.com/open-source-tools/
Realistically you only need the tools for your bike. Hardly matters that there are a dozen bb types, you pick the adapter you need and move on. And by and large most people are going to be something common like 22 spline not those weird campy bb from 50 years ago.
You are spot on. We have several bicycles in my extended family and I have the tools to repair all of it, but when we bought or built the bikes we looked for the widest compatibility possible of the spare parts: 2 BB types, 2 chain types, 2 fork and bearing types and 4 wheel sizes for ~ 10 bikes. The only "rare" tools are a Shimano Hollowtech 2 wrench and the "square BB" one, the rest are common tools most people have in the house.
> As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species."
Whenever you put a computer into a device that has historically been reliable and never needed a computer, you instantly limit its reliability to that of the computer (which usually becomes the most failure-prone and/or non-repairable part in the device).
Whenever you put a computer into a device that has historically been reliable and never needed a computer, you instantly limit its reliability to that of the computer (which usually becomes the most failure-prone and/or non-repairable part in the device).
Kudos to your shop for working on e-bikes at all. My experiences have been that bike shops/mechanics won't even do normal bike stuff, like working on brakes, when its an e-bike.
I had 3 simple questions to decide if an e-bike went in my stand:
1.) Does the frame use a seatpost?
2.) Are there any frayed or broken wires?
3.) Is the power cable to the motor removable?
I suppose the reason for needing a seatpost is to clamp on your stand. E-bikes get heavy, like 30kgs / 65lbs isn't at all rare, I wonder how if thats good for a seatpost?
Removable battery is as good as a removable power cable right?
Removable battery is as good as a removable power cable right?
Seatposts support hundreds of pounds of human flesh also, so the weight usually isn't the concern. But if your bike looks like more of a motorcycle, it's probably not going into my work stand.
On the point about the power cable, this is more directed at hub Drive motors. If I can't disconnect your motor to remove your wheel, I'm not going to fix your flat tire.
On the point about the power cable, this is more directed at hub Drive motors. If I can't disconnect your motor to remove your wheel, I'm not going to fix your flat tire.
How to make your life super easy if shopping for a bike:
- 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered
- Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded ones won’t last as long.
- QR or common thru-axle
- Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made)
- Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if you care about dropper posts
- Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price.
- Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and better value that drop bar!
- If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical equipment. It’s much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro level not so long ago.
- External cable routing!
- Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of weigh/cost/durability
- Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor in comfort
- Never buy a bike that doesn’t fit you
These tips won’t get you the best bike (in terms of absolute performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.
- 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered
- Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded ones won’t last as long.
- QR or common thru-axle
- Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made)
- Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if you care about dropper posts
- Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price.
- Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and better value that drop bar!
- If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical equipment. It’s much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro level not so long ago.
- External cable routing!
- Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of weigh/cost/durability
- Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor in comfort
- Never buy a bike that doesn’t fit you
These tips won’t get you the best bike (in terms of absolute performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.
I.. appreciate the effort but even as an owner of three bikes, and doing maintenance myself most of the time, I barely understand half of this list. I imagine most casual bicycle riders would be in the same boat?
No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is this racing bike lingo?
No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is this racing bike lingo?
SHIS is standard headset identification
QR is quick release (as in wheels)
BB is bottom bracket
Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!
QR is quick release (as in wheels)
BB is bottom bracket
Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!
What's "MTB?"
MTB mountain bike.
mountain bikes have a "flat" handlebar that is mostly straight from end to end.
They also have dropper posts - this basically converts a bicycle seat into an office chair. A handlebar lever you can pull will let the seat move up and down hydraulically and when you release it it stays in that position.
People use it to pedal normally with the seat up, but on tricky trails you can drop the seat down out of your way.
back to handlebars, drop bars are what road bikes have. They are the curled handlebars that look like a C from the side. If you lean forward, you can grab them by the "drops" and aerodynamically pedal harder.
mountain bikes have a "flat" handlebar that is mostly straight from end to end.
They also have dropper posts - this basically converts a bicycle seat into an office chair. A handlebar lever you can pull will let the seat move up and down hydraulically and when you release it it stays in that position.
People use it to pedal normally with the seat up, but on tricky trails you can drop the seat down out of your way.
back to handlebars, drop bars are what road bikes have. They are the curled handlebars that look like a C from the side. If you lean forward, you can grab them by the "drops" and aerodynamically pedal harder.
Thanks. The presence of the T makes it non-obvious.
I did look up "dropper" posts. Hadn't heard of those before.
I have a Trek 920 that people covet when I ride around. I replaced all the drive components a few years ago, since they were original from the early '90s. After it threw a chain and almost caused me serious injury I noticed hey, there's a bunch of teeth missing from these gears!
I learned a lot doing the overhaul... especially that you need a bunch of bike-specific tools!
I'm pretty sure my old Schwinn Continental is still in my parents' storage space, too...
I did look up "dropper" posts. Hadn't heard of those before.
I have a Trek 920 that people covet when I ride around. I replaced all the drive components a few years ago, since they were original from the early '90s. After it threw a chain and almost caused me serious injury I noticed hey, there's a bunch of teeth missing from these gears!
I learned a lot doing the overhaul... especially that you need a bunch of bike-specific tools!
I'm pretty sure my old Schwinn Continental is still in my parents' storage space, too...
I had a bike with the new di2 electronic shifters. It was amazing! you could shift and it would always get it right, even while pedaling!
Yea, wow, I know you can go infinitely deep on any topic, but bicycle nerds are a species all their own!
Here's how I bought my bicycle, as a total casual: Went to craigslist, typed in "bicycle", bought the one that looked to be in good shape for $50. It's lasted me 15 years and the only maintenance I've ever had to do on it was change tire tubes. I don't even know much about it. It says "Specialized Crossroads" on it, I guess that's the brand name.
Here's how I bought my bicycle, as a total casual: Went to craigslist, typed in "bicycle", bought the one that looked to be in good shape for $50. It's lasted me 15 years and the only maintenance I've ever had to do on it was change tire tubes. I don't even know much about it. It says "Specialized Crossroads" on it, I guess that's the brand name.
You know more than I do about bikes. I've assembled one (except for fork/handlebars) myself and have ridden various styles.
My only objection is brakes. If it can fit your budget, mechanical disc is worth the lower maintenance, adjustment, weather resistance over rim brakes. Disc in general have the fringe benefit of being able to swap tire sizes for different purposes.
Hydraulic disc are smoother and somewhat more effective, at the expense of money and ease of maintenance.
My only objection is brakes. If it can fit your budget, mechanical disc is worth the lower maintenance, adjustment, weather resistance over rim brakes. Disc in general have the fringe benefit of being able to swap tire sizes for different purposes.
Hydraulic disc are smoother and somewhat more effective, at the expense of money and ease of maintenance.
Rim breaks are pretty maintenance free. I just replaced the pads only thing ive done to them in 5 years with this bike. $15 and 2 mins of work.
Check the rims too, when you change the pads there is a chance your rims are very thin and at some point you need to replace it. Not cheap. Mechanical disk brakes are indeed quite good at cost-performance ratio, even if the hydraulic ones are nicer but significantly more expensive.
Its a cheap mavic rim I could probably get it second hand built already pretty cheap. Plenty of meat on the rim as there is a wear indicator to make it easy. I don’t think its very common to wear through a rim unless you do nothing but mountain descents for years and years.
Maybe it's a bias due to my rim bikes being historically lower quality. My rims get out of true more than my discs, and cheap-style rim brakes are harder to adjust to even braking.
I've never owned high quality rim brakes, that could be the issue.
I've never owned high quality rim brakes, that could be the issue.
Back in the day, even on a low-end steel Miyata mountain bike, I had to have QR wheel and QR seat post keyed locks because of theft. They consisted of an epoxy-coated offset plate with a hole at each end and a miniature luggage lock. In general IMO, it's not worth having an expensive bike because it's just going to get ripped-off and likely lacks significant benefit over a middle-market one. (A friend of mine had a $8k USD road bike stolen in downtown Mountain View right in front of every passerby in the busiest area where cops pass every 10 minutes.) Also, the only time I ever forgot to lock my (undersized jacked up with very long seat post and handlebar extensions) Miyata in the rack at home (apartments) in Davis CA was the very time it was stolen.
For dry climates: wax lube. Wet lube is only for rainy climates and attracts dust like mad. Chain guard is a must for non-leisure riding.
And if you don't like changing tires very often and don't mind the extra free exercise of added rolling resistance, kevlar armor bands are a must have with green snot slime. Still have to carry a vulcanizing patch kit, levers, and a pump because goatheads are pure evil.
For dry climates: wax lube. Wet lube is only for rainy climates and attracts dust like mad. Chain guard is a must for non-leisure riding.
And if you don't like changing tires very often and don't mind the extra free exercise of added rolling resistance, kevlar armor bands are a must have with green snot slime. Still have to carry a vulcanizing patch kit, levers, and a pump because goatheads are pure evil.
> - Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made)
I confirm. High-end bicycle here, "only" 8 years old. Full carbon (frame and wheels).
Bottom bracket is now a bit noisy. I went to a shop only doing that brand and...
"Oh but it's a threadless BB, the company doesn't make that anymore. And because it's a carbon frame, it's too complicated/risky to change it. We suggest you buy a new bicycle".
That'd be on a five digits bicycle supposed to be of the absolute best quality. And, well, it definitely has one of these not well made expensive frame.
P.S: had to google the acronyms you used but I suggest everybody here to listen: GP knows what he's talking about.
I confirm. High-end bicycle here, "only" 8 years old. Full carbon (frame and wheels).
Bottom bracket is now a bit noisy. I went to a shop only doing that brand and...
"Oh but it's a threadless BB, the company doesn't make that anymore. And because it's a carbon frame, it's too complicated/risky to change it. We suggest you buy a new bicycle".
That'd be on a five digits bicycle supposed to be of the absolute best quality. And, well, it definitely has one of these not well made expensive frame.
P.S: had to google the acronyms you used but I suggest everybody here to listen: GP knows what he's talking about.
AFAIK you can extract the bearings from the bottom bracket with generic tools. So they should've been at least able to regrease or replace those. You can also find custom made bottom brackets online for 2-400€ if it comes down to that. But for an 8yo model from a big manufacturer you can find mass produced ones for a reasonable price. Maybe they just really wanted you to buy a new bike from them.
I suggest you find a new shop with better mechanics
What make and model is it?
-Rim brakes means ever so slightly bent rim = SOL.
-There are some decent internal cable routing setups. The newest fad (through-headset), though...
-Comfort has a ton of variables, of which tyre volume/pressure/type/details(inserts/etc) are a major part of, but not the be-all-end-all. Grips, handlebars, saddles, pedals, crank length, etc, etc, etc, etc...
-There are some decent internal cable routing setups. The newest fad (through-headset), though...
-Comfort has a ton of variables, of which tyre volume/pressure/type/details(inserts/etc) are a major part of, but not the be-all-end-all. Grips, handlebars, saddles, pedals, crank length, etc, etc, etc, etc...
Rim breaks are fine for most people. your wheel has to be very very visually out of true to cause problems and thats only a $20 fix at the local bike shop. A little cathunk in the hands during braking never hurt anyone. Source: rode $40 bikes through college. Most of the comfort stuff is not applicable unless you are spending hours and hours in the saddle. You aren’t going to notice the crank arms are too short or your reach is too long commuting 30 mins to work.
Truing a wheel is something that for 100 years avid cyclists (riding multiple times per week) could do with nothing but a single $3 truing wrench. If you were very poor like me in college you did it by pushing the rim brakes to one side or another and then truing against the rim hitting the pad. We used to do this on the trail, ride mates amiably sitting by why the whacked wheel gets put into "enough" true.
Nowadays of course I have the whole kit, the Park truing stand, various truing wrenchs... and that's it. Oh right I use painter's tape to mark problematical spokes. I've built three sets of fabulous wheels that take a lot of abuse but let me still set personal records at (say) TdT.
Now we get to the flame wars. I've been endurance cycling 50 years, since I was 14 or so. I completely understand the arguments for disc brakes for tandems and touring setups. What the disc brake people are not telling you is that the hand fatigue problem was solved by $40 Avid Single Digit rim brakes 25 years ago. I have a set on my mt bike that are truly single digit sufficient for most rough descents up to say 3000' and maybe an hour. Probably you need to do some exercises if you're doing those and having fatigue. I have been at Moab doing an insane gonzo abusive descent and noticing that hmm might be having safety issues soon with my forearms, and hmm, I need to get this descent done... but that was before the Avid brakes. My 20 yo Specialized frame FrankenBike with Avid SD brakes is not being replaced in I guess forever because it is gonzo abusive ready and it just works.
Edit: Oh if anyone has a nice set of used Avid SD brakes I'd really like to replace the way too sensitive Paul sidepull brakes on my gravel bike. I put the dumbest pads possible on them and they're still too sensitive. I'd happily trade if I could fully refurb the functionality of the Avid brakeset.
Nowadays of course I have the whole kit, the Park truing stand, various truing wrenchs... and that's it. Oh right I use painter's tape to mark problematical spokes. I've built three sets of fabulous wheels that take a lot of abuse but let me still set personal records at (say) TdT.
Now we get to the flame wars. I've been endurance cycling 50 years, since I was 14 or so. I completely understand the arguments for disc brakes for tandems and touring setups. What the disc brake people are not telling you is that the hand fatigue problem was solved by $40 Avid Single Digit rim brakes 25 years ago. I have a set on my mt bike that are truly single digit sufficient for most rough descents up to say 3000' and maybe an hour. Probably you need to do some exercises if you're doing those and having fatigue. I have been at Moab doing an insane gonzo abusive descent and noticing that hmm might be having safety issues soon with my forearms, and hmm, I need to get this descent done... but that was before the Avid brakes. My 20 yo Specialized frame FrankenBike with Avid SD brakes is not being replaced in I guess forever because it is gonzo abusive ready and it just works.
Edit: Oh if anyone has a nice set of used Avid SD brakes I'd really like to replace the way too sensitive Paul sidepull brakes on my gravel bike. I put the dumbest pads possible on them and they're still too sensitive. I'd happily trade if I could fully refurb the functionality of the Avid brakeset.
Rim brakes suck in the rain. This matters a lot for commuter bikes.
I've never heard of the hand fatigue thing. I agree that it sounds like BS.
I've never heard of the hand fatigue thing. I agree that it sounds like BS.
Hand fatigue is a real issue if doing big off road touring, but that’s not most people.
Yes rim brakes are worse in the rain, but they’re not that bad! I wonder if people who say this have tried a modern dual pivot road caliper or decent v-brakes. They have easily enough stopping power for commuting in rain.
Yes rim brakes are worse in the rain, but they’re not that bad! I wonder if people who say this have tried a modern dual pivot road caliper or decent v-brakes. They have easily enough stopping power for commuting in rain.
Everything sucks in the rain. They still work alright they just take a single rotation to squeegie water off the rim then they grab stronger than the tire can hold the road.
Threaded headsets are fine, "threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable, drop bars and their levers are fine and sometimes better, 2x10 is even cheaper than 2x11 (what's up Tiagra), AL was never uncool except for forks, mostly agree with the rest
Threaded headsets work, but it’s an inferior design to threadless. There are no advantages to them at all - except maybe aesthetics!
The only modern bikes with threaded tend to be low end anyway. Best to avoid!
The only modern bikes with threaded tend to be low end anyway. Best to avoid!
> "threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable
Are you including Shimano pressfit BBs here? Never had problems replacing it, not even needed special tools.
Are you including Shimano pressfit BBs here? Never had problems replacing it, not even needed special tools.
If you're not considering a bearing press as a special tool (or you didn't use one) then we exist in different worlds.
> "threadless" bottom brackets are mostly trash and almost entirely non-user serviceable,
Yup I confirm. I'm never buying that again.
Yup I confirm. I'm never buying that again.
I used the Ratio conversion to bring both my old 10 and newer 11 speed SRAM drop bar shifters to 12 speed spec.
Highly recommend!
https://bikepacking.com/gear/ratio-1x12-upgrade-kit-review/
Highly recommend!
https://bikepacking.com/gear/ratio-1x12-upgrade-kit-review/
I don’t have many hard rules I follow about specific standards or parts when I shop for a bike, but I do have one guideline I adhere to:
I only buy bikes with online tech manuals containing exploded diagrams, dimensions, part numbers, and torque specs.
I look through the parts and verify that either the manufacturer has spares available on their web store or that they’re common parts available anywhere. I also look up older models and make sure the manufacturer still has manuals and parts for them too so I have confidence I will still be able to get parts in 5 years or so.
I only buy bikes with online tech manuals containing exploded diagrams, dimensions, part numbers, and torque specs.
I look through the parts and verify that either the manufacturer has spares available on their web store or that they’re common parts available anywhere. I also look up older models and make sure the manufacturer still has manuals and parts for them too so I have confidence I will still be able to get parts in 5 years or so.
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Rim brakes/pull-brakes/v-brakes are great even for serious off roading, though you may want to upgrade to long caliper pads, which make a world of difference. Disc brakes aren't helpful until you're doing serious downhill. Why everyone has disc brakes these days when they don't need them is a great question.
Hydraulic brakes have far better power and better power modulation. I think that matters a lot in terms of usability and confidence to a beginner. Especially in rainy weather.
Rim doesn't mean they aren't hydraulic. I have hydraulic rim brakes and agree they give you much more power than cabled ones.
> Why everyone has disc brakes these days when they don't need them is a great question.
The reason I've got disc brakes is because of how precise and pleasant the feeling and feedback in the brake lever is. It's pure bliss.
I know it's totally overkill but the to me there's no comparison in how pleasant the brake lever is, so I don't mind paying a bit more.
The reason I've got disc brakes is because of how precise and pleasant the feeling and feedback in the brake lever is. It's pure bliss.
I know it's totally overkill but the to me there's no comparison in how pleasant the brake lever is, so I don't mind paying a bit more.
Rim/v-brakes just need proper adjustment, replacement pads when worn, and clean rims. They're also much easier to control with finesse than disc brakes which tend to lock and require brake fluid and pads service. In rain though, I'd want disc brakes because rim/v-brakes can fade rapidly depending on material and coating of the rim.
I used to ride a lot in the mountains. Even on roads my disk brakes were blue from heat, rim brakes would simply die or make me die - no, thanks. Rim brakes are perfectly fine for city bikes, many road bikes and light offroad, but not for any long braking - that is not limited to downhill.
carbon rims
enough said
enough said
Shockingly bad advice.
I wouldn't recommend anyone get quick release, thru-axle is so much better. Disc brakes too, it's such a huge upgrade. I'd also say a dropper post if you're doing anything off-road, or maybe even on-road, they're awesome!
Unlocked QR wheels and seats get stolen and vandalized. QR should generally only be used where transportation space is limited or for stationary security, but otherwise prefer permanently-installed ones at the expense of having to carry a wrench with the tire patch kit.
I can't think of a reason QR is better other than price. I actually find it easier to mount and unmount the wheels with thru-axle. They're not really permanently installed though, so they can be stolen if you know how to take them off.
Anything can be stolen given unreasonable dedication, but that's not the point. The point is to deter by making it not worth messing with. Unlocked QR wheels will be stolen or vandalized in most major US cities in an instant.
When I was in college, I'd pop the QR front wheel off and chain lock it through the rear wheel+frame+rack. Only took an extra 10 seconds or so, and took less time than it'd take to lock two chains to make sure everything was secured to the rack.
I wish they'd have given more examples for traditional bikes than bottom brackets. Yeah, bike shops have to deal with lots of different BBs, but that's because they deal with bikes that might be 30 or 40 years old, from all over the planet. Some threaded, some press-fit, etc. Some high-end, some very cheap.
On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.)
Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.
On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.)
Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.
I spent 6 months chasing down a new rear wheel because my freewheel hub had broke and I didn't want to spend twice the price of the used bike on a new wheel set from the manufacturer.
Visited many local bike shops, got a lot of bad advice there (same as online), then finally got told what to order exactly at one online shop because not even their supplier had it.
Maybe the blame is not on the manufacturer here because they wanted to make it less repairable, but if showed me a lesson in non-standard components. (it's an 11-speed Ultegra on a QR, which seems to be very, very uncommon).
But just the amount of "just do X" responses I got showed that there are too many fine details.
Visited many local bike shops, got a lot of bad advice there (same as online), then finally got told what to order exactly at one online shop because not even their supplier had it.
Maybe the blame is not on the manufacturer here because they wanted to make it less repairable, but if showed me a lesson in non-standard components. (it's an 11-speed Ultegra on a QR, which seems to be very, very uncommon).
But just the amount of "just do X" responses I got showed that there are too many fine details.
I agree that the message seems to mostly be about e-bikes, though I will say I was recently forced to get yet another Shimano BB / rotor tool recently, and I have quite an assortment of them now... My newest ride has a belt (not an ebike, but Gates + Alfine 11sp) which means more unique bits (but likely not for a while, I did have to get a fitting to oil the hub, but that's less work than keeping a chain lubed, so I can't complain).
Hub is way more work than the chain. I have to repack mine soon and its going to take me getting it open, replacing the ball bearings, packing them in new grease after cleaning out old, then an undetermined amount of fiddling getting them just a quarter turn or so too loose in the cones so the quick release will torque them perfectly when its installed. Thats assuming nothing fights me along the way like a seized locknut on the cassette.
Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then its fine for another long while.
Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then its fine for another long while.
Which Hub?
I know back in the day I could abuse the hell out of Nexus/Alfine 8 speeds, had one on a Chicago Schwinn that I rode in all sorts of weather, and another on a Diamondback Tandem that was ridden through tornado warning weather [0] on top of the overall abuse of being on a tandem with two experienced riders.
[0] - 10/10 would totally do again.
I know back in the day I could abuse the hell out of Nexus/Alfine 8 speeds, had one on a Chicago Schwinn that I rode in all sorts of weather, and another on a Diamondback Tandem that was ridden through tornado warning weather [0] on top of the overall abuse of being on a tandem with two experienced riders.
[0] - 10/10 would totally do again.
Some tiagra 10 speed set up with an 8 speed cassette but its a simple enough cup and cone loose bearing design like most rear hubs made. Still though if you leave it in the rain like me the bearings will dry out and howl when the wheel is spinning, requiring new grease and bearings (since they are cheap enough to replace instead of clean and inspect).
The 'red' Alfine 8 speed hubs had extra weather sealing, that's why it was great in the tornado weather lol.
TBH if you leave it in the rain just do a repack before you ride it again, unless it's a stupidly fancy hub, a lifetime bucket of grease suitable for hub bearings is probably still under 20-30 USD per person, and if you've got the wrenches and a stand [0] a repack can be done in 20 mins or less.
Edit: to be clear, I'm talking about normal hubs, with the Alfine we did an inspection but the seals looked good and a peek done inward indicated everything was fine so... yeah those red bands were gr8.
[0] - IDK if they still make it, but the Minoura FT-1 is... pretty good balance of quirks for the lack of dollars spent, both for truing and other wheel checks...
TBH if you leave it in the rain just do a repack before you ride it again, unless it's a stupidly fancy hub, a lifetime bucket of grease suitable for hub bearings is probably still under 20-30 USD per person, and if you've got the wrenches and a stand [0] a repack can be done in 20 mins or less.
Edit: to be clear, I'm talking about normal hubs, with the Alfine we did an inspection but the seals looked good and a peek done inward indicated everything was fine so... yeah those red bands were gr8.
[0] - IDK if they still make it, but the Minoura FT-1 is... pretty good balance of quirks for the lack of dollars spent, both for truing and other wheel checks...
I had a belt drive not so long ago and when the belt broke, I found out that the entire system had been recalled by Continental with no repair or upgrade path possible. I couldn't even get a replacement belt.
The bike was a write-off as a result.
Oh... the Alfine hub that is supposedly nice and weather-proof get some rust in it that pitted some of the bearing races in the hub. Turns out those are not replaceable short of torching the hub.
The bike was a write-off as a result.
Oh... the Alfine hub that is supposedly nice and weather-proof get some rust in it that pitted some of the bearing races in the hub. Turns out those are not replaceable short of torching the hub.
I'm grateful that my 2019 Norco Section uses a round seatpost, threaded Shimano BB, and standard cockpit; I deplore the "self-adjusting" D-shaped Giant seatpost on my girlfriend's bike (which is subtly off-centre and takes all kinds of witchery to approximate the ease with which I can adjust a standard seatpost), as well as the mess of BBs and integrated cockpits that are becoming common even on mid-range road & gravel bikes. When I buy my next bike, I will go out of my way to select something using standardized parts. I very much hope something akin to the Framework laptop comes to market in cycling, where the entire machine is built to be user-serviceable with off-the-shelf, readily available parts. I put something like 20,000 km commuting to school on my early 1970s Raleigh Record, which I rebuilt almost completely with my brother, and it was a gloriously simple machine that I miss dearly today.
You can still buy bikes like that. There are plenty of people still making frame sets that will work with standard drive train components, standard sized stems, and plain ol handlebars in a variety of shapes. And they will build a bike for you.
I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit, but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a fraction of the weight of the bike!
Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or other replaceable parts.
I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit, but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a fraction of the weight of the bike!
Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or other replaceable parts.
It does seem like a complete bike that is under $1100 or so today will be less repairable than the bike I got in 2008 for $600 (less than $900 in 2024 dollars).
In some ways yes in other ways no. Shimano has been on their forced obsolescence train for 30 years. They don’t make hoods for my old 8spd levers. If I want to not deal with ratty old tape over sticky ancient hoods I need to drop $130 on new claris levers and $25 on a new fd because the pull ratio changed then another $20 on new bar tape.
>They don’t make hoods for my old 8spd levers.
You should check AliExpress for those. You might be able to find some knock-offs. AE is actually really good for things like this. The other place to check is Ebay, in case someone is selling NOS (new old stock).
You should check AliExpress for those. You might be able to find some knock-offs. AE is actually really good for things like this. The other place to check is Ebay, in case someone is selling NOS (new old stock).
I’ve tried both. They don’t make 8spd era hoods they do have some 9spd clones. NOS has n’t existed for years and when it comes up people ask $100 for a set of hoods.
I wonder if any of the companies making 9spd clones would be interested in making 8spd clones. It might not be worth it for them, but probably wouldn't hurt to ask, especially if people are actually getting $100 for a set when they dig up some NOS.
If your hoods aren't absolutely disintegrating into goo, a little talc powder goes a long way towards getting rid of the stickiness.
I tried that too. Talc only works for the first time you grip the hoods. If you then take your hands off and regrip you are back to where you started getting black crap everywhere. Tape has been the best solution if a bit ugly.
Speaking as an ex bicycle repair man, this irks and/or boggles me. I feel trolled. I mean, I doubt the veracity of this headline and I think they're making shit up.
Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts. Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel tuner.
I can smell it now.
Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts. Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel tuner.
I can smell it now.
Parliament breaks between coats of Mastik...yeah, sometimes I think I miss that smell, but I don't.
Unfortunately this isn't a new problem. My 20+ year old bike, that doesn't have a single electronic component on it, has a single special crankarm bolt because the crankarm is "integrated" with the spider, presumably to shave off a few grams. Four normal bolts and one special bolt that may be hard to find today.
A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing standards.
A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing standards.
Bicycles should be required to be sold with a sheet of all the measurements of replacement parts. I find that buying the correct part is often the biggest hurdle in maintaining my bicycles.
Complete bicycle manufacturers usually make these specification lists public in online and print catalogs. Component-level repair, as in many other fields, requires more specialized knowledge and a parts list is rarely practical nor helpful.
I'm happy to learn about it. I've owned trekking/urban bicycles from multiples brands and never found such documents, except maybe using archive.org to get old marketing pages.
My daily cycling mostly consists of a mile and a half to the station each way without any serious hills, but my station bike is one we got second-hand for my brother when he was a teenager back in 1980 or so and we repainted it back then, so it's probably over 50 years old. It is the scruffiest bike in the bike shed at the station, which is just the way I want it. But most importantly, just about everything on it still works. It was once a racer with a lightweight steel frame, but I put straight bars on it 20 years ago. It lives outside year round and has done so for 25 years, so it has a nice patina that means thieves always look the other way. A little rust converter every now and then ensures the corrosion looks much worse than it really is. The original pedals finally fell apart a couple of years ago, but replacements were readily available. The front derailier failed and I removed it, so it's a 5-speed now, but that is fine for my use. The saddle has been replaced many times. And the rear wheel needed replacing twice. But it's still on the original chainwheel (!), brakes, rear derailier, shifter and remarkably, front wheel. Headstock bearings and bottom bracket are original too. Anytime I have needed something, the local independent bike shop has it - all the parts are still available.
Alongside it at the station are so many nice looking bikes, but chances are mine will outlive all of them and not get stolen either. Anyway, if you're getting a bike as transport, get yourself something used from way back that was a high quality bike back then. Some of them at least were built to last, they're easy to repair, and are still way lighter than most modern bike shaped objects.
Alongside it at the station are so many nice looking bikes, but chances are mine will outlive all of them and not get stolen either. Anyway, if you're getting a bike as transport, get yourself something used from way back that was a high quality bike back then. Some of them at least were built to last, they're easy to repair, and are still way lighter than most modern bike shaped objects.
The science/education podcast Let's Learn Everything had an episode recently about planned obsolescence [1], and it does seem to have started with the bicycle. So this is not new.
1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the...
1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the...
This is very intersting! Thanks
I've just noticed that the timestamps on the page are clearly from a different episode. The planned obsolescence section actually starts at 57:42.
Can't get past the intro sentence without getting triggered. No, most people cannot fix a bike. As evidenced by the horrid shape most bikes are in. Heaven help folks that get the brakes so that they need to replace pads. You are as often to see people that ruined rims as you are to see people that did that correctly.
Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need apps to run. That is just baffling.
So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.
Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need apps to run. That is just baffling.
So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.
> Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously
The kids in my neighborhood are zipping around on these things at 30 MPH. In my state it's illegal for these kids to be riding around on these things, but the law isn't being enforced. Probably more of a hassle for the officer than it's worth.
And safety? Bwahahahaha! Kids are riding these at 30 MPH in shorts, t-shirt and maybe a bicycle helmet. Just the other day I saw three girls who appeared to be middle school-aged hop on an e-delivery type bike and ride 3 up! All they were wearing were those super short and super thin shorts girls like to wear, and a t-shirt. Not a single helmet. Yet there they were riding 3 up on this e-bike on public streets just after the peak of evening rush hour.
It's insane! I'm continually amazed we're not seeing more news stories of kids getting hurt on these things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we're not seeing these news stories, but I'm amazed we aren't.
The kids in my neighborhood are zipping around on these things at 30 MPH. In my state it's illegal for these kids to be riding around on these things, but the law isn't being enforced. Probably more of a hassle for the officer than it's worth.
And safety? Bwahahahaha! Kids are riding these at 30 MPH in shorts, t-shirt and maybe a bicycle helmet. Just the other day I saw three girls who appeared to be middle school-aged hop on an e-delivery type bike and ride 3 up! All they were wearing were those super short and super thin shorts girls like to wear, and a t-shirt. Not a single helmet. Yet there they were riding 3 up on this e-bike on public streets just after the peak of evening rush hour.
It's insane! I'm continually amazed we're not seeing more news stories of kids getting hurt on these things. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we're not seeing these news stories, but I'm amazed we aren't.
I'm wondering what insurance companies are going to say. I have a feeling they will be the driving force at least in the US, since they are the ones picking up the bills.
I'm wondering how the law is going to be applied in the event of an accident. In my state, if you hit a minor riding a bike then you're automatically at-fault and the burden of proof is on you to prove that the accident was unavoidable.
Will that same law apply when the kid is operating a motorized vehicle? Especially if they're operating that vehicle illegally?
TBF, it hasn't been a problem so hey, maybe these kids have a lot more sense than we give them credit for? Maybe I should just be grateful that those girls were outside playing instead of being in a screen and were feeling a little "dangerous" and rode 3 up on an e-bike?
Will that same law apply when the kid is operating a motorized vehicle? Especially if they're operating that vehicle illegally?
TBF, it hasn't been a problem so hey, maybe these kids have a lot more sense than we give them credit for? Maybe I should just be grateful that those girls were outside playing instead of being in a screen and were feeling a little "dangerous" and rode 3 up on an e-bike?
Unfortunately I am missing a "modern" rim brake bike to confirm I am not going mad, but back in the 90s about half of the time we fixed a flat at the back the shifting was off after that and needed readjusting, and replacing brake pads usually meant fiddling for an hour until everything aligned well again.
Compare to any disc brake bike I have owned (bought later than 2010)... everything is super smooth. I just can't believe both my dad and I (when I was teenager) were completely inept and now as an adult I can magically fix bikes.
Compare to any disc brake bike I have owned (bought later than 2010)... everything is super smooth. I just can't believe both my dad and I (when I was teenager) were completely inept and now as an adult I can magically fix bikes.
Unlike car maintenance bike maintenance is way more accessible. You need like one or two specialized tools to cover the majority of the work you'll do on your bike compared to a car. People are just lazy.
I think the reality of most people using bikes in rather low stakes situations also changes things heavily. That is, many are riding bikes that I would not trust down a hill going 30+mph. But, notably, most people are not going anywhere close to 30mph on a bicycle.
To that end, you are correct that most people are just needing to clean their bike. Replace the occasional consumable part of it, maybe. Keep it clean, though, and you are unlikely to need to replace any parts anytime soon.
Edit: And, again, limit this to ebikes and things change pretty rapidly. It is trivial to get an ebike to 25mph.
To that end, you are correct that most people are just needing to clean their bike. Replace the occasional consumable part of it, maybe. Keep it clean, though, and you are unlikely to need to replace any parts anytime soon.
Edit: And, again, limit this to ebikes and things change pretty rapidly. It is trivial to get an ebike to 25mph.
Exactly what specialized tools do you need to work on a car? Are you counting closed end wrenches and sockets as "specialized" or something?
While it is technically a socket, an oil filter wrench is reasonably specialized in that you won't see it in a standard socket set. Same may be true of a spark plug socket depending on your car.
Otherwise, doing routine/basic maintenance on a car, such as changing the oil, requires a means of getting under the car (ramps or jack and stands) and of handling large amounts of fluids (drain pan and funnel) neither of which you need to do the equivalent work on a bike.
A torque wrench is much more important for car maintenance than for bike maintenance (and you'll need a bigger one!). Depending on the condition of your car you may want a breaker bar.
Obviously doing anything with the suspension requires a spring compressor, and troubleshooting certain engine problems requires a compression tester, but those are needed infrequently enough that they can be rented or borrowed.
And that's before getting into the model-specific specialized tools for something like a timing belt change, or anything electronic (though I recommend anyone with a car should get a cheap Bluetooth OBDII reader).
Otherwise, doing routine/basic maintenance on a car, such as changing the oil, requires a means of getting under the car (ramps or jack and stands) and of handling large amounts of fluids (drain pan and funnel) neither of which you need to do the equivalent work on a bike.
A torque wrench is much more important for car maintenance than for bike maintenance (and you'll need a bigger one!). Depending on the condition of your car you may want a breaker bar.
Obviously doing anything with the suspension requires a spring compressor, and troubleshooting certain engine problems requires a compression tester, but those are needed infrequently enough that they can be rented or borrowed.
And that's before getting into the model-specific specialized tools for something like a timing belt change, or anything electronic (though I recommend anyone with a car should get a cheap Bluetooth OBDII reader).
You have a pretty odd definition of "specialized". A jack is a jack. Yes, I use a big one for my truck since it weighs many thousands of pounds. I use the same jack to lift small cars and anything else I want, within reason.
A torque wrench is a specialized tool...for torquing a fastener. I use the torque wrench to torque fasteners on my truck, my motorcycle, some random piece of equipment I want to repair, etc.
I have seal drivers for driving seals on my motorcycle. I also can use them on hydraulic cylinders, or any other random seal I want to drive in.
The only truly specialized piece of auto repair tooling I have is a tool that is cast and machined specifically to fit inside the engine head to remove a portion of the valvetrain for maintenance. It's a very boring once you understand how it works, but I'm not using it for anything else.
As for a spring compressor, I've been doing suspension work for about a decade now and used one zero times. You just don't need it for routine maintenance. I guess if a spring breaks, you would need it in some weird circumstance possibly.
A torque wrench is a specialized tool...for torquing a fastener. I use the torque wrench to torque fasteners on my truck, my motorcycle, some random piece of equipment I want to repair, etc.
I have seal drivers for driving seals on my motorcycle. I also can use them on hydraulic cylinders, or any other random seal I want to drive in.
The only truly specialized piece of auto repair tooling I have is a tool that is cast and machined specifically to fit inside the engine head to remove a portion of the valvetrain for maintenance. It's a very boring once you understand how it works, but I'm not using it for anything else.
As for a spring compressor, I've been doing suspension work for about a decade now and used one zero times. You just don't need it for routine maintenance. I guess if a spring breaks, you would need it in some weird circumstance possibly.
Well yes, I suppose if you also have a motorcycle and a truck and some miscellaneous hydraulic machinery that you work on yourself, then you will also use most of the tools you use for car maintenance to work on other things.
For someone who owns a car and nothing else with an internal combustion engine except maybe a lawnmower, most of those tools are only used to work on their car.
There are of course also specialized tools you need to work on a bicycle- tire levers and a chain link breaker, for instance. But they're much smaller and cheaper.
For someone who owns a car and nothing else with an internal combustion engine except maybe a lawnmower, most of those tools are only used to work on their car.
There are of course also specialized tools you need to work on a bicycle- tire levers and a chain link breaker, for instance. But they're much smaller and cheaper.
I would consider jacks, seal drivers and oil filter wrenches specialized tools. The only specialized tool you need for a bike is a spoke wrench.
> The only specialized tool you need for a bike is a spoke wrench.
And a chain whip, and a lockring bit for brakes/cassette, and another bit for the bottom bracket, and some pin spanners maybe, a derailer alignment gauge, maybe crank puller, tire levers, chain breaker, and master link pliers. Hydraulic brakes? Bleed kit, piston press. Pneumatic suspension? Shock pump. Tubeless? Better get a syringe to refill sealant through valves (and don't forget the valve core wrench) or reset your tires every time you need new sealant.
And a chain whip, and a lockring bit for brakes/cassette, and another bit for the bottom bracket, and some pin spanners maybe, a derailer alignment gauge, maybe crank puller, tire levers, chain breaker, and master link pliers. Hydraulic brakes? Bleed kit, piston press. Pneumatic suspension? Shock pump. Tubeless? Better get a syringe to refill sealant through valves (and don't forget the valve core wrench) or reset your tires every time you need new sealant.
Does the average person really need all that? An Allen key set and socket wrench kit will get you pretty far.
You do need all that if you want to perform maintenance on a bike. I assure you that the average person won't be able to replace a cassette, which is a wear item, with an Allen wrench and a socket wrench. Or replace disk brakes, or a chain ring, which are also wear items. I imagine you can use an Allen bit as a lever when you need to access tubes or replace tires (wear items both), but it does have high probability of damaging your rims, which, again will need lockring bits and a chain whip to replace, at least on the rear wheel. Chain is another wear item, I figure you can just hammer out pins with a thin Allen key to cut a new chain and use the same technique to remove the old one but your hammering technique should be very precise to retain the pin, you cannot put them back in once you hammered them out too far, not even with a socket wrench.
Lockring tool for cassette
Various BB tools, also for disc brake lockrings
Chain whip
Bleed kit
You can force a missing link with other tools but the dedicated pliers are really much better
Various BB tools, also for disc brake lockrings
Chain whip
Bleed kit
You can force a missing link with other tools but the dedicated pliers are really much better
I gave in and bought a torque wrench recently for my bikes... modern bike components sure are light but they are also really easy to over-tighten.
> jack and stands
Manual for my latest car recommends against jacking up under the front axle, so a jack and stands are out for getting underneath it.
Manual for my latest car recommends against jacking up under the front axle, so a jack and stands are out for getting underneath it.
Had a mobile mechanic unable to change the timing belt on our 10 y/o Volkswagen Golf because the balancer is now secured with a proprietary lock-ring instead of four hex bolts.
He said this sort of thing is getting more common and even if he did want to buy all of the required bits and bobs he wouldn't be able to fit them all in his van.
Even in the 'good old days', you weren't getting very far working on your car without things like gear pullers, timing guns and feeler gauges. All things that technically you could be using for other things, but not exactly in the average toolbox of someone that doesn't work on cars.
He said this sort of thing is getting more common and even if he did want to buy all of the required bits and bobs he wouldn't be able to fit them all in his van.
Even in the 'good old days', you weren't getting very far working on your car without things like gear pullers, timing guns and feeler gauges. All things that technically you could be using for other things, but not exactly in the average toolbox of someone that doesn't work on cars.
I can't change the oil in my ancient '99 passat (very low miles, I barely drive) without a special wrench.
Meh. There have been Bike Shaped Objects sold at non-bike shops forever. Huffy used to be a complete joke of a bike, but in 1988 the 7-11 team rode "Huffy" frames. (which were really Serottas).
Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did.
Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in.
Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely. Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur.
I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes too.
iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.
Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did.
Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in.
Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely. Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur.
I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes too.
iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.
Lithium ion batteries and battery modules are never ever gonna be user repairable. The main reason is that the electrolyte is a highly toxic, carcinogenic and extremely flammable organic solvent. AAs are user swappable because the electrolyte is water based.
Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge bearings are used.
Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see a straight up plastic adult bike frame?
Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge bearings are used.
Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see a straight up plastic adult bike frame?
Lion cell electrolytes are nowhere near as toxic as those of NiCd or lead-acid. Flammability is the biggest risk. Toxicity is comparable to acetone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_carbonate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_carbonate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_carbonate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_carbonate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate
Yes, but unless you drink the lead acid battery acid, you're not exposed to it. Ditto for NiCd. No one is drinking battery electrolyte. The key is that all of the above in Lithium ion are VOC and highly available, including what you mentioned and worse, specifically NMP.
People are talking about replacing cells within packs, not disassembling the cells themselves!
Agreed, I apologize that I wasn't more clear. It's just that the electrolyte composition forms the basis of safety. In an environment where end users are handling bare cells, you need to assume the cells are leaky/ruptured.
For example, if you have ever changed out old Duracell alkaline batteries, the white stuff on the contacts means they leaked.
For example, if you have ever changed out old Duracell alkaline batteries, the white stuff on the contacts means they leaked.
"In the US, propylene carbonate is not regulated as a volatile organic compound (VOC) because it does not contribute significantly to the formation of smog and because its vapor is not known or suspected to cause cancer or other toxic effects"
"Diethyl carbonate is used as a solvent such as in erythromycin intramuscular injections."
Ethyl acetate: "The LD50 for rats is 5620 mg/kg,[24] indicating low acute toxicity. Given that the chemical is naturally present in many organisms, there is little risk of toxicity."
"Diethyl carbonate is used as a solvent such as in erythromycin intramuscular injections."
Ethyl acetate: "The LD50 for rats is 5620 mg/kg,[24] indicating low acute toxicity. Given that the chemical is naturally present in many organisms, there is little risk of toxicity."
Yes, just need to watch out for the ethers, NMP, various other volatile additives. And even worse, the HF. That's the one that melts your bones.
Lithium ion electrolyte is extremely hazardous when inhaled. I would not attempt to handle, open or modify cells without engineered ventilation and appropriate training and protection. If a cell is punctured or suspected to be leaking, I would evacuate to fresh air immediately and activate a hazardous substance control team.
Lithium ion electrolyte is extremely hazardous when inhaled. I would not attempt to handle, open or modify cells without engineered ventilation and appropriate training and protection. If a cell is punctured or suspected to be leaking, I would evacuate to fresh air immediately and activate a hazardous substance control team.
It appears you're far too paranoid for your own good. If by NMP you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone ,
"N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone is a relatively innocuous compound with an LD50 of 4150 mg/kg (oral, rats).[5] It is non-mutagenic."
HF is only formed in combustion, but then so are a lot of other more hazardous chemicals.
But getting the occasional whiff of electrolyte (which I admit actually has a quite pleasant smell) or having some skin contact from a leaking cell is certainly nothing to worry about.
I know plenty of people who regularly work on cars, washed their hands with gasoline and probably came into contact with much worse, yet still lived healthily into their 80s and 90s.
"N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone is a relatively innocuous compound with an LD50 of 4150 mg/kg (oral, rats).[5] It is non-mutagenic."
HF is only formed in combustion, but then so are a lot of other more hazardous chemicals.
But getting the occasional whiff of electrolyte (which I admit actually has a quite pleasant smell) or having some skin contact from a leaking cell is certainly nothing to worry about.
I know plenty of people who regularly work on cars, washed their hands with gasoline and probably came into contact with much worse, yet still lived healthily into their 80s and 90s.
Check out what we're building at https://get.gouach.com ! We're solving exactly this problem, and we have designed a fireproof casing for extra safety! Happy to answer any question :)
I could see this being interesting if you handle all the aspects of pack teardown, rebuild and recertification, and send out finished packs. Would you be comfortable with doing that and standing behind those 100%?
Asking regular people or even highly technical people to assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire. It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new, matched cells.
Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case for consumer products.
Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and a cell vents, will it start a fire?
How are you going to thoroughly test with your production parts before shipping to customers next month?
Asking regular people or even highly technical people to assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire. It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new, matched cells.
Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case for consumer products.
Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and a cell vents, will it start a fire?
How are you going to thoroughly test with your production parts before shipping to customers next month?
Thanks for all those questions! No we will ship standard cells that we tested the battery with (it is EU-certified, and UL-certification is ongoing)
Yes! The battery is quite safe now! We have iterated on the design for close to 4 years now.
We have added safeties everywhere so that even a misplaced cell wouldn't be dangerous. And as you mention the fireproof casing is the extra layer of safety, so that if there is an unlikely thermal event, no flames can go out.
We've been running those batteries for around 2 years on about 1000 shared mobility e-bikes in France, so we're quite sure of the design!
Yes! The battery is quite safe now! We have iterated on the design for close to 4 years now.
We have added safeties everywhere so that even a misplaced cell wouldn't be dangerous. And as you mention the fireproof casing is the extra layer of safety, so that if there is an unlikely thermal event, no flames can go out.
We've been running those batteries for around 2 years on about 1000 shared mobility e-bikes in France, so we're quite sure of the design!
That's great to hear. UL certification is a starting point. How is that going?
What does EU-certified mean with regards to battery safety?
I think the sticking point with UL is that you need to know the specific application in order to assess the downstream risks. Are you able to do the UL certification for multiple bikes, or just a specific model?
Are you able to get UL certification for multiple different cell brands, or do you need to do a different certification for each type of cells used in the pack?
I'm assuming mixed salvaged cells are off the table for UL certification?
What does EU-certified mean with regards to battery safety?
I think the sticking point with UL is that you need to know the specific application in order to assess the downstream risks. Are you able to do the UL certification for multiple bikes, or just a specific model?
Are you able to get UL certification for multiple different cell brands, or do you need to do a different certification for each type of cells used in the pack?
I'm assuming mixed salvaged cells are off the table for UL certification?
> Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades.
Steel frames are heavy beasts. Aluminum alloys, magnesium alloys or carbon fiber is waaaay lighter in contrast, and weight is king at least if you're not running with electrical assistance.
It's exactly the same in cars, there we have exactly the same trend towards lighter but more brittle materials.
Steel frames are heavy beasts. Aluminum alloys, magnesium alloys or carbon fiber is waaaay lighter in contrast, and weight is king at least if you're not running with electrical assistance.
It's exactly the same in cars, there we have exactly the same trend towards lighter but more brittle materials.
I used to race as an amateur for almost 10 years. I saw people winning on steel frame bikes and for flat terrain the weight of the bike is not that important. Carbon is light indeed, but the frame as a percent of the overall bike can be quite low, as low as 25%. Half a kilo in a 12 kg MTB is insignificant except pro races.
I'm not necessarily talking about bike races... for commuter bikes that you have to lug up and down stairs into your basement, every gram counts.
My e-bike is somewhat around 20 kg, that thing is a tank in its own right, and it's hell to haul around when our beloved Deutsche Bahn once again manages to fuck up elevators.
My e-bike is somewhat around 20 kg, that thing is a tank in its own right, and it's hell to haul around when our beloved Deutsche Bahn once again manages to fuck up elevators.
AAs aren't user repairable either. When was the last time you repaired an AA? What the article is asking for is just a standardized connector and voltage for Li-ion batteries.
I misspoke, what I intended to say is that lithium ion batteries are never going to be user swappable. Yes, you can get sketchy stuff off of Amazon that supports it, but the regulatory bodies will, correctly, continue to strongly resist end users touching bare lithium ion cells.
Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and toxic chemicals out one end.
Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab, for various good safety reasons.
Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and toxic chemicals out one end.
Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab, for various good safety reasons.
At least standardized form factors and no complex proprietary communication protocols to the battery would help a lot to make battery replacements more affordable
There are many kinds of bottom bracket these days, but like, not that many. BSA is still extremely common and it's looking like T47 (which has two variants) will be the other common standard going forward. BB30, BB86 exist. Other variants are much less common.
Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try to generalize.
Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try to generalize.
Which major manufacturers are adopting T47?
I hate how fetishists on certain narrow cross cutting topics (e.g. right to repair, open source, environmentalists, security) drag the conversation in such a negative direction. The biggest revolution in biking accessibility happened in the last 10 years with electrification of bicycles. Most people care about total cost of ownership. The old bicycle were 100% repairable by most people and while it's a loss to not to be able to do that anymore it won't impact many people other than the ones looking to either drop their costs to near zero or the fetishists who will scream their heads off the whole time.
It reminds me of not being able to pick a milk without getting scorn from somewhere (real milk ~ cows, oat milk ~ sugar, macadamia milk ~ env impact, soy milk ~ hormones, etc). All the while we're watering alfalfa to feed cows for beef.
Oh boy the bikes are less repairable, even though half the city dwellers could be replacing cars with electric bikes. A car has way higher repair bills and up front purchase costs not to mention the ongoing costs.
It reminds me of not being able to pick a milk without getting scorn from somewhere (real milk ~ cows, oat milk ~ sugar, macadamia milk ~ env impact, soy milk ~ hormones, etc). All the while we're watering alfalfa to feed cows for beef.
Oh boy the bikes are less repairable, even though half the city dwellers could be replacing cars with electric bikes. A car has way higher repair bills and up front purchase costs not to mention the ongoing costs.
I think that's true for e-bikes, but that's perhaps to be expected in a newer market.
Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and basically everything else was standardized except some bearings. All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake, shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps things competitive.
Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and basically everything else was standardized except some bearings. All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake, shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps things competitive.
Hmm, I don’t know anything about ebikes but normal bikes seem to be going back to BSA threaded bottom brackets.
The last 3 bikes I’ve bought have had BSA.
The last 3 bikes I’ve bought have had BSA.
"This makes it all the more important that we have legislation to force them to make proprietary parts available for riders to buy themselves"
Of course this should be the case, but even then I'm not sure it would help, as they will simply make the spare parts so costly that it's uneconomical.
Maybe there should be a 'standardization' score, somewhat like energy efficiency scores, that could then be mandated.
Or mandate that parts interfaces must be documented and published as standards, and be free and open for competitors.
The basic problem is that almost the whole of business has discovered or decided that their reason for existence is to get money out of people, and that providing the best products and services they can is merely incidental and not actually necessary, especially if they all play the same game.
Of course this should be the case, but even then I'm not sure it would help, as they will simply make the spare parts so costly that it's uneconomical.
Maybe there should be a 'standardization' score, somewhat like energy efficiency scores, that could then be mandated.
Or mandate that parts interfaces must be documented and published as standards, and be free and open for competitors.
The basic problem is that almost the whole of business has discovered or decided that their reason for existence is to get money out of people, and that providing the best products and services they can is merely incidental and not actually necessary, especially if they all play the same game.
I have no respect for e-bikes and couldn't care less about how they're constructed, but I ride mountain bikes and a return to standardisation is a big theme of the newer generation of MTB. People are shunning brands that ship proprietary crap in favour of universal parts and sizes.
Im going to disagree - bikes are incredibly more repairable because of e-commerce. I no longer rely on local availability of parts, and lack of documentation when doing repairs. YouTube has infinite knowledge and Amazon/walmart ship literally any part to my door. Bottom bracket as an example I don’t think is fair - I’m an avid cyclist and have never once heard of anyone working in their bottom bracket. Chain, derailleur, cranks/pedals, brakes, handlebars, seat, etc are all very reasonable to do but bottom brackets everyone takes to a shop.
Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6 online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair, but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks replaced.
Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6 online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair, but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks replaced.
I'm not saying these prices aren't painful, but I am pretty sure there are very few bike shop owners, let alone employees, with enviable wealth.
It's true for mechanical bikes!
For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery!
But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver.
Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!
For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery!
But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver.
Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!
Often times community bike shops will have tools to let you fix one. It is a kind of once in a decade repair though.
I replaced my own bottom bracket!
Ok well, first I destroyed the threads on the cranks meant to interface with the bottom bracket tool. Thus requiring a shop visit. And the shop, after consulting with the frame manufacturer, cut the destroyed cranks off with an angle grinder (and posted a video to their Facebook page - you don't usually see that many sparks in a bike shop).
But hey, I now have a nice, let-the-pros-do-this-job souvenir (the wrecked cranks). And my bracket/bearings are creak-free and spinning quite nicely three years later.
Ok well, first I destroyed the threads on the cranks meant to interface with the bottom bracket tool. Thus requiring a shop visit. And the shop, after consulting with the frame manufacturer, cut the destroyed cranks off with an angle grinder (and posted a video to their Facebook page - you don't usually see that many sparks in a bike shop).
But hey, I now have a nice, let-the-pros-do-this-job souvenir (the wrecked cranks). And my bracket/bearings are creak-free and spinning quite nicely three years later.
Yeah I've only ever had to use my bottom bracket tool twice in 20 years of cycling, wasn't so hard to do (moving from a cracked frame to a new one once, and replacing a bottom bracket that had gone in a bmx) - but I doubt most people would try to diy it - it just so happened that I had the tool in my 'every tool you might ever need' kit from China.
I've replaced a couple and the conclusion is that this definitely has economies of scale since you will very rarely use the tool. Better to go take it to a bike shop. It wasn't hard once I had the tools, but I'm not going to use the tools that often. And I'm more likely to lose the bottom bracket adapter tool than reuse it, if I'm being honest.
Totally agree - despite having most bike tools I might need, I'd watch friends time and again pay over £100 for a new chain fitted and maybe a minor 'service' if they were lucky in London. I'd offer to either loan them the tools, make the fix or walk through the processes, but to many people it just feels impossible to start taking a bike apart. The only reason I learnt is that I am tight/cheap and a massive set of (OK) tools was far less than a single trip to the lbs.
the online direct business doesn't have to pay rent for a shop space in an accessible part of Denver though, which is why downtowns can't compete on price
> shop prices are absolutely disgusting
Do you think they are high because that's what it takes to pay for labor and rent, or are they high because the owners are greedy and are getting rich?
Do you think they are high because that's what it takes to pay for labor and rent, or are they high because the owners are greedy and are getting rich?
Simply high from a consumers perspective. Some shops certainly are greedy (PE owned, multiple locations, like evo). But for the truly lbs I don’t know the cause.
Unregulated markets trend towards brand lock-ins, proprietary parts, cheaper goods of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc. All businesses are doing this everywhere because we are running out of World for them to expand into, but any company that posts a less profitable quarter is presumed to be failing.
For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of this.
For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of this.
There are lots of counter-examples to this, such as the market for microprocessors. Huge market, few regulations, excellent quality, remarkably low switching costs.
"Huge" market? AMD and Intel. Technically Apple but they don't sell to OEM's, and of course bespoke processors for specific applications.
It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.
It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.
You're ignoring all the non-desktop/laptop processors.
That's true! So Qualcomm. Four whole firms, clearly invalidating my point.
ST Micro, Microchip, Texas Instruments, NXP, etc.
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This mostly seems to be a complaint about e-bikes and batteries. Almost all major manufacturers are still making mostly user-repairable bikes for recreational riding and commuting.
From nearly a decade of bike industry experience, I can say that most people should not be doing their own repairs, or should at least have someone check their work. Lack of experience, shoddy mechanical aptitude, and poor attention to detail can all add up quickly to missing teeth and broken bones, or worse.
From nearly a decade of bike industry experience, I can say that most people should not be doing their own repairs, or should at least have someone check their work. Lack of experience, shoddy mechanical aptitude, and poor attention to detail can all add up quickly to missing teeth and broken bones, or worse.
Opinionated solution; always buy used never buy electric. There are enough steel frames in the world that we probably never need to manufacture another one.
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ever think the government should (externally) tax non-repairable stuff?
Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?
Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?
I don't. I think they should force people to redesign if things are unnecessarily non-repairable, and in some cases subsidize that redesign. The government should also create standards (including standard component designs) that automatically pass the product if adhered to.
If we're going to be officially judging what is repairable and not repairable, we should commit to dealing with it fully rather than half-assing and leaving infinite loopholes.
If we're going to be officially judging what is repairable and not repairable, we should commit to dealing with it fully rather than half-assing and leaving infinite loopholes.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but what does "(externally)" mean ? A tariff ? In large enough trading blocs I would be concerned that manufacturing of the non-repairable part would just move within the bloc. I'm in favour of the idea but the mechanism might need some thought.
Sorry, I was thinking outside the whole corporate tax system. Tax stuff as it is sold, like gas taxes happen at point-of-sale.
I suspect subsidies and corporate taxes and the rest are a convoluted mess that might not serve people as well.
I suspect subsidies and corporate taxes and the rest are a convoluted mess that might not serve people as well.
Who decides if it’s repairable?
Even a small start would be useful, like "user-replacable battery".
not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery would pass.
not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery would pass.
Does that mean a removable battery because who is to say that your bikes brand of batteries is going to be available for purchase tomorrow?
open standard battery > standard battery > removable proprietary battery > glued-in phone battery > whatever airpods do
I guess I don’t need to say that you need to define all those things and also the person who decides is you apparently. convenient
Mandate a ten year warranty that covers labor but (maybe) not parts.
Mandate customers paying for a warranty no thanks
Great idea!
Bikes have sucked for a long time and they just seem to be getting worse. Even a bike that costs $5k+ will inevitably fall apart. I find that if you are a real serious cyclist the best option is to buy your own frame and then build your own rig with bespoke parts.
I've bought a lot of bikes in my lifetime and only twice have I opted to build a bike from scratch. Both times I was working on a bike shop. It was really the second time when one of our dealers had a "bike shop deal" where you could get a frame/fork setup for like $300. The Fox fork on the frame was worth around $700 so it was a really good deal.
The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes on and on.
It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together which took quite a while.
It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model. Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs dialed in.
The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes on and on.
It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together which took quite a while.
It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model. Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs dialed in.
Building a road bike with a threaded bottom bracket, rim brakes and pre built brakes really isn't that bad. I was pretty unexcited when disc brakes were introduced to road bikes due to the increased maintenance burden.
Disc brakes make sense if you're riding hilly terrain or racing, but are otherwise overkill. They do have their place though, there's a particular descent around here that tends to melt carbon rim braking surfaces.
A $5k bike will fall apart way more quickly than a $1k to $2k bike. The only reason to get a $5k bike is if you are trying to win a race and have other people to do the maintenance for you. The lower end (but not absolute cheapest) parts are generally more reliable since they aren't nearly as weight optimized.
Maybe? I am not really sold on bikes falling apart. They all have consumables. It’s no different than a car. Sure there are some hyper specific frame styles, thinking of you tri bikes, but beyond that they don’t feel less repairable.
Yes, bikes built with race equipment need to be maintained like race equipment. Don't buy a $5k bike (or a Porsche) if you are going to complain about maintenance intervals.
- we salvaged 100s of discarded e-bike batteries
- we found that 90% of components were like new
- batteries were thrown away because of the spot-welding and the glue which prevents repairability
- we spent 2 years (and 5 patents) to design a robust, safe, and easy to assemble system that requires nothing but a screwdriver
Our batteries have been in use since 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks), and we're very happy with their performances!
We're now opening it to the general public (for conversion kits, and to replace old batteries that are no longer manufactured)
We plan to open-source at least part of the embedded software, so people can write extensions (to let their battery "talk" with any e-bike system, and share it — using WASM embeddable code — to other people on the web!)
Let's fight planned obsolescence!
(and if you're looking for a new battery, there's 25% off on https://get.gouach.com)