Vermont EV buses prove unreliable for transportation this winter(vermontdailychronicle.com)
vermontdailychronicle.com
Vermont EV buses prove unreliable for transportation this winter
https://vermontdailychronicle.com/vermont-ev-buses-prove-unreliable-for-transportation-this-winter/
23 comments
Per the article, the issue is with recalled batteries that are going to take 18-24 months to be replaced that won't allow the bus to charge pas 75% or below 41 degrees and because of the risk of fire and lack of suitable fire mitigation equipment, can no longer be charged in garages. Not seeing any mention of an issue with the underlying technology.
It's a double whammy, because at cold temperatures the total capacity of the battery is reduced, and now they're only using 75% of that.
Also, recalls in lithium cobalt batteries are much, much more common than they are with other battery technologies, which is an issue inherent to the specific technology used for those batteries.
Also, recalls in lithium cobalt batteries are much, much more common than they are with other battery technologies, which is an issue inherent to the specific technology used for those batteries.
Yea, it's fricken cold. Vermont internal combustion buses were extremely unreliable already and would struggle in the extremely hilly environment as soon as there was ice. Even Williston is too much for buses to be a reliable year round transit option.
That said, relying on a technology with a temperature requirement anywhere north of -10c was a foolhardy decision.
That said, relying on a technology with a temperature requirement anywhere north of -10c was a foolhardy decision.
> That said, relying on a technology with a temperature requirement anywhere north of -10c was a foolhardy decision.
There was no temperature requirement when they were purchased. Now it seems likely that New Flyer will be sued.
From the article:
Clark also explained that the five electric buses were “operating well” until November 2025 when the batteries “were recalled for fire hazard.”
The recall prompted a software update from New Flyer to “decrease the likelihood for fire” that “included only allowing the bus to charge to 75% and to not allow charging when the battery is below 41 degrees,” Clark explained.
“Previously we could charge in any temperature to 100%,” Clark said.
There was no temperature requirement when they were purchased. Now it seems likely that New Flyer will be sued.
From the article:
Clark also explained that the five electric buses were “operating well” until November 2025 when the batteries “were recalled for fire hazard.”
The recall prompted a software update from New Flyer to “decrease the likelihood for fire” that “included only allowing the bus to charge to 75% and to not allow charging when the battery is below 41 degrees,” Clark explained.
“Previously we could charge in any temperature to 100%,” Clark said.
>Vermont internal combustion buses were extremely unreliable already and would struggle in the extremely hilly environment as soon as there was ice
Why do you think internal combustion engines have more than almost nothing at all to do with tire grip?
Why do you think internal combustion engines have more than almost nothing at all to do with tire grip?
EVs are superior at traction control and torque vectoring using power controls.
You're splitting hairs between a turd and a polished turd here.
Throw air actuated chains on like every snowy municipality already does for their fire trucks and school busses and call it good. This solution is one every regional transit authority that deals in snow is already aware of and familiar with and it doesn't matter what your source of motive power is.
Throw air actuated chains on like every snowy municipality already does for their fire trucks and school busses and call it good. This solution is one every regional transit authority that deals in snow is already aware of and familiar with and it doesn't matter what your source of motive power is.
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I looked up the specific bus in this article and we don't need to have an argument about this because the New Flyer buses involved don't have torque vectoring and have 1 central motor.
The drive is nearly identical to a regular diesel bus with an open differential, except it doesn't work in the winter.
The drive is nearly identical to a regular diesel bus with an open differential, except it doesn't work in the winter.
Swap the batteries for sodium ion chemistry.
> Where the CATL Naxtra battery really stands out, however, is cold-weather performance. CATL says its discharge power at -30 degrees Celsius (-22 degrees Fahrenheit) is three times higher than that of LFP batteries.
They can also charge at temperatures as low as -30°C to -40°C.
The first sodium-ion battery EV is a winter range monster - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46936315 - February 2026
> Where the CATL Naxtra battery really stands out, however, is cold-weather performance. CATL says its discharge power at -30 degrees Celsius (-22 degrees Fahrenheit) is three times higher than that of LFP batteries.
They can also charge at temperatures as low as -30°C to -40°C.
The first sodium-ion battery EV is a winter range monster - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46936315 - February 2026
The MacGuffin that will replace the current, flawed technology and usher in a new era.
Sure, all sorts of things are possible at half energy density. In bus use case, a heater would be lighter.
Naxtra hasn't even published their specs, why draw such conclusions?
Much to the disappointment of the combustion apologists, electric heavy vehicles are the future [1] [2]. They win simply from a total cost of ownership perspective, and the technology will continue to rapidly advance. No need to polish a turd with a heater.
In this situation, the product was not fit for purposes because it was not a requirement [4]. This is a procurement and contracting issue, not a technology issue. Another subthread indicates this piece is astroturfing fossil fuel interests [5]. The lesson is to select a vendor who doesn't suck next time. I suggest BYD.
[1] https://www.wri.org/insights/countries-electrifying-bus-flee... ("There are about 780,000 electric buses on the world’s roads as of 2024. Electric buses include battery electric buses, plug-in hybrid electric buses and fuel cell electric buses. So far, 94% of all electric buses are battery electric, which are expected to continue to dominate the industry. More than 90% of the world’s electric buses are located in China — nearly 700,000 in total. China experienced massive growth in electric buses from 2014 to 2018, a time when other countries had barely started deploying them. In 2017, Shenzhen became the first city in the world to electrify its entire bus fleet (16,000 buses). By 2023, the top 10 global cities with the most electric bus sales were in China, with Shenzhen, Shanghai, Chengdu and Beijing leading the way. Outside of China, Santiago, Chile is the city with the highest electric bus sales. The European Union is home to 17,000 electric buses, with most of the sales growth taking place after 2018. Several European countries such as the Netherlands, Finland and Switzerland have achieved very high rates of electric bus adoption. India, South Korea and the United States are each home to more than 10,000 electric buses.")
[2] https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in... ("Sales of electric buses, comprising all medium- and large-sized buses, are far ahead of those of other heavy-duty vehicle (HDV) segments (including medium- and heavy-duty trucks). Several European countries (such as Belgium, Norway and Switzerland) and the People’s Republic of China (hereafter "China") achieved sales shares above 50% in 2023, and more than one-fifth of bus sales were electric in Canada, Chile, Finland, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Sweden. Globally, almost 50 000 electric buses were sold in 2023, equating to 3% of total bus sales and bringing the global stock to approximately 635 000 in total. This relatively low share is primarily due to the limited sales shares in most EMDEs, as well as the low market penetration of electric buses in some larger markets such as the United States and Korea.")
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47064734
[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47064724
In this situation, the product was not fit for purposes because it was not a requirement [4]. This is a procurement and contracting issue, not a technology issue. Another subthread indicates this piece is astroturfing fossil fuel interests [5]. The lesson is to select a vendor who doesn't suck next time. I suggest BYD.
[1] https://www.wri.org/insights/countries-electrifying-bus-flee... ("There are about 780,000 electric buses on the world’s roads as of 2024. Electric buses include battery electric buses, plug-in hybrid electric buses and fuel cell electric buses. So far, 94% of all electric buses are battery electric, which are expected to continue to dominate the industry. More than 90% of the world’s electric buses are located in China — nearly 700,000 in total. China experienced massive growth in electric buses from 2014 to 2018, a time when other countries had barely started deploying them. In 2017, Shenzhen became the first city in the world to electrify its entire bus fleet (16,000 buses). By 2023, the top 10 global cities with the most electric bus sales were in China, with Shenzhen, Shanghai, Chengdu and Beijing leading the way. Outside of China, Santiago, Chile is the city with the highest electric bus sales. The European Union is home to 17,000 electric buses, with most of the sales growth taking place after 2018. Several European countries such as the Netherlands, Finland and Switzerland have achieved very high rates of electric bus adoption. India, South Korea and the United States are each home to more than 10,000 electric buses.")
[2] https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in... ("Sales of electric buses, comprising all medium- and large-sized buses, are far ahead of those of other heavy-duty vehicle (HDV) segments (including medium- and heavy-duty trucks). Several European countries (such as Belgium, Norway and Switzerland) and the People’s Republic of China (hereafter "China") achieved sales shares above 50% in 2023, and more than one-fifth of bus sales were electric in Canada, Chile, Finland, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Sweden. Globally, almost 50 000 electric buses were sold in 2023, equating to 3% of total bus sales and bringing the global stock to approximately 635 000 in total. This relatively low share is primarily due to the limited sales shares in most EMDEs, as well as the low market penetration of electric buses in some larger markets such as the United States and Korea.")
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47064734
[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47064724
I hope a few of these experimental alternative battery chemistries prove viable. One company recently claimed their Al/Li batteries has 92% efficiency at -13°C
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/this-new-aluminum-based-e...
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/this-new-aluminum-based-e...
There are lots of cities using electric buses in place colder than Vermont. The problem is with New Flyer, not with electric buses.
Surprisingly, New Flyer is a Canadian company. Cold temperatures shouldn't be a surprise.
> Spokesman for energy workers advocacy group Power the Future Larry Behrens told the Center Square: “Taxpayers were sold an $8 million ‘solution’ that can’t operate in cold weather when the home for these buses is in New England.” “We’re beyond the point where this looks like incompetence and starts to smell like fraud,” Behrens said.
It’s disingenuous to quote someone from Power the Future, a known fossil fuel advocate in the beginning of the article. Batteries are subject to recalls. So what? Newer technologies aren’t as mature yet. If you wait until a technology is fully mature before adopting it, you are never going to adopt any new technology. The Chevy Bolt has had some bad battery recalls and actual fires, but these days these growing pains are over and the Bolt is a reliable vehicle.
It’s disingenuous to quote someone from Power the Future, a known fossil fuel advocate in the beginning of the article. Batteries are subject to recalls. So what? Newer technologies aren’t as mature yet. If you wait until a technology is fully mature before adopting it, you are never going to adopt any new technology. The Chevy Bolt has had some bad battery recalls and actual fires, but these days these growing pains are over and the Bolt is a reliable vehicle.
https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/power-the-future/
> Daniel Turner is the founder and as of 2025 was the executive director of Power the Future. Turner is an commentator on energy and environmental issues especially as they relate to jobs, rural communities, and the U.S. economy. Turner formerly worked as director of strategic communications at the Charles Koch Institute, vice president of communications at Generation Opportunity, and network and cable liaison director for the 2012 Republican National Convention.
So, yeah.
> Daniel Turner is the founder and as of 2025 was the executive director of Power the Future. Turner is an commentator on energy and environmental issues especially as they relate to jobs, rural communities, and the U.S. economy. Turner formerly worked as director of strategic communications at the Charles Koch Institute, vice president of communications at Generation Opportunity, and network and cable liaison director for the 2012 Republican National Convention.
So, yeah.
Adding onto that, the last quarter or so of the article is spent quoting William Rampe of the Institute for Energy Research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
> IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry. It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections.
Regardless of whether or not the buses proved effective, it's pretty obvious to me that this isn't neutral journalism. It seems like the author approached it first as an opportunity to echo anti-EV talking points and second as a noteworthy story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
> IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry. It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections.
Regardless of whether or not the buses proved effective, it's pretty obvious to me that this isn't neutral journalism. It seems like the author approached it first as an opportunity to echo anti-EV talking points and second as a noteworthy story.
The complete lack of fucks about anything beyond covering one's own ass given by anyone involved here is maddening.
The feds shouldn't have granted this hardware into this climate but hey the requirements don't say anything about being reasonable and it checks the box.
The supplier should work with them to quantify the risks rather than covering ass. Yeah it's a big lithium battery and "hurr durr fire safety" but these fleets are multimillion dollar investments that shouldn't incur serious downtime. Limit the charging rate or something as a temp fix. Better than nothing.
GMT should come up with an interim charging solution to charge at 40deg (RV size car-port and a couple torpedo heaters, IDK I'm not a biologist).
The feds shouldn't have granted this hardware into this climate but hey the requirements don't say anything about being reasonable and it checks the box.
The supplier should work with them to quantify the risks rather than covering ass. Yeah it's a big lithium battery and "hurr durr fire safety" but these fleets are multimillion dollar investments that shouldn't incur serious downtime. Limit the charging rate or something as a temp fix. Better than nothing.
GMT should come up with an interim charging solution to charge at 40deg (RV size car-port and a couple torpedo heaters, IDK I'm not a biologist).
I cant agree more
Lithium iron phosphate batteries have lower specific power and energy, often making them too heavy for automotive use, but they have a great price per watt-hour, so they're getting enough use that they're becoming easier to manufacture, which is making them even more affordable and increasing the specific power and energy as new variations are developed.
Public transit busses are very large, don't carry a lot of weight, and need to charge and operate in cold areas, so sodium ion batteries are the best option, despite their low specific power and energy. They also theoretically have an even lower price per watt-hour, but they have so little adoption that there isn't any cost optimized manufacturing. They're absolutely what's needed for busses, and are also great for battery backup in cold climates, but as with lithium iron phosphate, it will take some time for them to be viable.
Early adopters are what makes technology happen, but they have to deal with under-performance and high costs. We may have to wait for the technology to mature, before it is practical for public infrastructure.