Is Amazon Art a Doomed Venture?(marginalrevolution.com)
marginalrevolution.com
Is Amazon Art a Doomed Venture?
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/08/is-amazon-art-a-doomed-venture-lets-hope-so.html
45 comments
I think a better question is "What is the marginal cost for Amazon adding art as a new product category?" which is approximately $0. They can afford to keep it around until buying art on the internet becomes either normalized (if there's cultural friction) or perfected (if it's how they're selling it that's holding them back).
I've never had a bad experience with Amazon or any of their third parties across hundreds (!) of transactions. Long time collector, I purchased two pieces of art yesterday via the beta. Known gallery, brick-and-mortar. It's already a total debacle.
Late 90s press quoted Bezos as saying he wanted Amazon to sell everything except livestock and gasoline. Compared to art galleries, there's less bullshit and more ethics among the beef and oil companies.
But I pushed the button yesterday specifically knowing Amazon had my back. That says a lot.
Late 90s press quoted Bezos as saying he wanted Amazon to sell everything except livestock and gasoline. Compared to art galleries, there's less bullshit and more ethics among the beef and oil companies.
But I pushed the button yesterday specifically knowing Amazon had my back. That says a lot.
Could you elaborate on the debacle part?
Nothing that's Amazon's fault. Amazon purchase history shows order complete, paid via Amazon credit card. Gallery currently refuses to ship either piece.
Verdict: yes, Amazon has successfully brought the magical experience of dealing with art dealers online. Not sure earning their cut is going to be much fun for them, but like Prime I'll happily use it as long as they offer the implausible service.
Verdict: yes, Amazon has successfully brought the magical experience of dealing with art dealers online. Not sure earning their cut is going to be much fun for them, but like Prime I'll happily use it as long as they offer the implausible service.
I presume the gallery refuses to ship the piece because they didn't get the money yet, right?
Thank you for having "developer at artsy.net" in your bio as I would have found this continued questioning odd otherwise.
The gallery cancelled the order claiming both pieces are out of stock. A direct email to the gallery said the pieces were in stock. Typically gallery scam nonsense.
And literally while I was typing this, Amazon called me, totally unprompted.
So there's your verdict. Art galleries still suck, Amazon is still awesome, and it's still virtually impossible to make a significant purchase on the internet in 2013.
The gallery cancelled the order claiming both pieces are out of stock. A direct email to the gallery said the pieces were in stock. Typically gallery scam nonsense.
And literally while I was typing this, Amazon called me, totally unprompted.
So there's your verdict. Art galleries still suck, Amazon is still awesome, and it's still virtually impossible to make a significant purchase on the internet in 2013.
Thanks. Just trying to learn.
The venture is putting amazon in the news so it also has PR implications for the rest of their business. It isn't clear yet if it will be a positive or negative impact on their reputation, but perhaps they are using this as an icebreaker into other luxury markets.
Amazon seems to targeting the wrong category of the art market. I can see people buying works for $50-$2,000. But the idea of someone paying 1.5 mil for a Monet on Amazon is both ridiculous and unlikely.
The very expensive items are just establishing the legitimacy of this 'fine art' section. Amazon doesn't need those items to sell. Having them listed alone makes the art section feel like it is fine, and makes people more comfortable purchasing a thousand dollar item.
So it's anchoring? "This must be a classy joint if they sell $50 whiskey, I'll just have the $15 Jack and Coke..."
Yes. Anchoring price and legitimacy.
I think this opportunity combines basic access/awareness and the fact that there are more people out there with money to burn than some of us think. On top of that, simply getting a product in front of so many new (and unlikely) eyeballs has to have some value.
On the first point and in my experience, the majority of traditional galleries rarely list prices for art. That leaves no chance to be surprised at accessibility ("Who would've thought that Dali lithograph would be $2k? That's worth it just to say I have a Dali on my wall.") or to start saving towards a defined goal ("$6,000. And I love it. If I get that end of financial year bonus..."). How many people would just think "If I have to ask, I can't afford it" and walk away.
A piece or something similar might be cheaper in a specific gallery, but it's quite possible that a newcomer would have little idea about that. Or no way of easily telling if the gallery itself was listing POA.
On the second point, someone recently offered a $1m+ tour package that travelled to every UNESCO world heritage site (hundreds of them), across a span of 1-2 years. They found a buyer.
There is a growing interest in wine from an inexperienced Chinese market with money to spend and I could see there being a similar market for Western art presented accessibly too.
On the first point and in my experience, the majority of traditional galleries rarely list prices for art. That leaves no chance to be surprised at accessibility ("Who would've thought that Dali lithograph would be $2k? That's worth it just to say I have a Dali on my wall.") or to start saving towards a defined goal ("$6,000. And I love it. If I get that end of financial year bonus..."). How many people would just think "If I have to ask, I can't afford it" and walk away.
A piece or something similar might be cheaper in a specific gallery, but it's quite possible that a newcomer would have little idea about that. Or no way of easily telling if the gallery itself was listing POA.
On the second point, someone recently offered a $1m+ tour package that travelled to every UNESCO world heritage site (hundreds of them), across a span of 1-2 years. They found a buyer.
There is a growing interest in wine from an inexperienced Chinese market with money to spend and I could see there being a similar market for Western art presented accessibly too.
This is what it seems like to our generation (I'm guessing you're 25+). By the time current 12 year olds are old enough to buy art, buying it online will seem totally normal.
~2006 I tried to create an online art marketplace (this was a direct-from-artist marketplace from $50 to $50,000) and one of the main problems was that buying online made the work feel a bit cheaper. That's a stigma that will die off.
All you need to sell work remotely is trusting the brand you're buying through (Amazon) and being familiar with the artist you're buying.
~2006 I tried to create an online art marketplace (this was a direct-from-artist marketplace from $50 to $50,000) and one of the main problems was that buying online made the work feel a bit cheaper. That's a stigma that will die off.
All you need to sell work remotely is trusting the brand you're buying through (Amazon) and being familiar with the artist you're buying.
I don't necessarily think buying art online won't work. But Amazon isn't exactly an "upper-class" website, for lack of a better term. It's too commercialized and focuses too much on essential and low cost items.
A bricks-and-mortar comparison might be Target and a higher-end store like Lord & Taylor or Nordstrom's. Amazon is more like Target - it has a decent brand, but you wouldn't really expect to find thousand dollar paintings there. You could, perhaps, expect to find such paintings at a "higher end" store, though.
But, I could be wrong. I just don't think the people spending millions on paintings are the people cruising Amazon for a deal. The online marketplace for exclusive artworks is a different site IMO.
A bricks-and-mortar comparison might be Target and a higher-end store like Lord & Taylor or Nordstrom's. Amazon is more like Target - it has a decent brand, but you wouldn't really expect to find thousand dollar paintings there. You could, perhaps, expect to find such paintings at a "higher end" store, though.
But, I could be wrong. I just don't think the people spending millions on paintings are the people cruising Amazon for a deal. The online marketplace for exclusive artworks is a different site IMO.
I think that having the expensive stuff at the announcement is all about getting people talking about it. Lots of stores have that ridiculously priced item that everyone wants to see but nobody actually wants to buy.
It does seem to be gallery prices for the commodity art at the low end. But these are just the people that were first in. If we get that race to the bottom among artists, we might see some good stuff for a good price.
It does seem to be gallery prices for the commodity art at the low end. But these are just the people that were first in. If we get that race to the bottom among artists, we might see some good stuff for a good price.
Amazon carries a surprising amount of expensive merchandise already. I've never seen, e.g., luxury watches at Target: http://www.amazon.com/IWC-IW356502-Portofino-Automatic-Black... — and notice that the only reviewer opted to buy the piece at Amazon (Prime eligible!) rather than a brick-and-mortar boutique.
Makes it easy for someone to find a Monet for sale, and easy for someone to offer one (simple & cheap to list). I was stunned right off the bat that I could buy genuine Dali works for $5000 - maybe overpriced, but makes it easy to buy if I've got the cash and the stock market is tanking. Making it easy to move easy money (if such money is easy for you) is profitable for Amazon.
eBay has a lot of listings priced over 6 digits.
Both are positioning themselves as the go-to site for buying anything, recognizing that entries in a web-searchable database costs next to nothing regardless of how many digits in the offered price tag.
eBay has a lot of listings priced over 6 digits.
Both are positioning themselves as the go-to site for buying anything, recognizing that entries in a web-searchable database costs next to nothing regardless of how many digits in the offered price tag.
Amazon isn't really targetting the high end. It's just that people are only looking at those pieces. Even in the painting section, only 25% of the paintings are over $5k, and half are under $2.5k.
Don't people buy art now by looking in a catalog from an auction house and making a telephone call? Is it THAT different to go to a website?
One indication that buyers may be ok with this is that art buying (bidding, really) has been done over the phone in the past.
Also, try to realize what this means for Asian bidders who may not have the time (or inclination) to fly over to the West to purchase a work. Or vice-versa.
Also, try to realize what this means for Asian bidders who may not have the time (or inclination) to fly over to the West to purchase a work. Or vice-versa.
I think the reviews on this one are a pretty good indication of where this is going:
http://www.amazon.com/LEnfant-tasse-portrait-Jean-Monet/dp/B...
If it is going to work, then they have a lot of work left to do.
If it is going to work, then they have a lot of work left to do.
Ugh.
Those reviews would have been cute 10 years ago, but I really wish Amazon would screen reviews or only allow people who have purchased that particular item.
Those reviews would have been cute 10 years ago, but I really wish Amazon would screen reviews or only allow people who have purchased that particular item.
Which is a problem for a marketplace of mostly-unique or one-off items. Ebay makes the seller ratings paramount, which mostly works. Amazon has seller ratings, but the sitewide culture doesn't place as much emphasis on them.
I've rated every Ebay seller I've ever worked with, but I don't always remember to do the same with Amazon, and I assume that's pretty typical.
I've rated every Ebay seller I've ever worked with, but I don't always remember to do the same with Amazon, and I assume that's pretty typical.
This makes me wonder if it's a PR stunt. I think Amazon allows them to stay up because it draws traffic to the site.
Amazon does flag reviews where they can verify the purchase.
Amazon does flag reviews where they can verify the purchase.
I think those reviews are zero indication of where it will go.
That isn't to say that Amazon art will do well, I just doubt that people writing those reviews represent the demand for art or the feelings of people who might buy from Amazon.
That isn't to say that Amazon art will do well, I just doubt that people writing those reviews represent the demand for art or the feelings of people who might buy from Amazon.
Smart thing would be to add logic to say:
if type = "Unique Work" then disallow reviews.
if type = "Unique Work" then disallow reviews.
If anything the reviews are good PR, no?
I'm waiting for the one that comes with the "Amazon Confirmed Purchase" tag.
I'm waiting for the one that comes with the "Amazon Confirmed Purchase" tag.
The article is odd. Almost seems like the author is pissed about people being able to buy art... I like the concept of being able to purchase prints or art online, and amazon has online shipping down... I hope it makes it.
Yes. And he's focusing his words on things that don't make sense, rather than speculating on what might work out.
When well-off people build homes, they want art for the walls. So they buy a bunch of art en masse ("will these colors work in the study?"). This site could work for these people, or for the consultants that they hire to recommend work. Another related use case would be boutique hotels and other public spaces.
When well-off people build homes, they want art for the walls. So they buy a bunch of art en masse ("will these colors work in the study?"). This site could work for these people, or for the consultants that they hire to recommend work. Another related use case would be boutique hotels and other public spaces.
I've seen worse. Some people on the Internet seem offended by the very concept of other people making money off anything but manual labor.
Here's my guess as to why art would be overpriced on Amazon (I know nothing about art prices, so I won't assume that it actually is, just why it would make sense).
Some recently IPO'd CEO walks into a Brooklyn gallery and sees a piece of art. He likes art but he's not much of a collector. He knows that art can be a very lucrative investment, but has no idea what sells in this wierdo art market. When he finds a piece at the gallery and has a good feeling about, he whips out his phone and does a google search of the artist/piece and finds and would you look at that! Prices are on Amazon.com with reviews and everything.
The artist/gallery knows this is happening, so they jack their price on Amazon. "Hey! This is worth $50k and I'm getting it for $10k". Plus when you show off your house, you can say "Oh, you like that? I got it at this cute little gallery in Greenpoint last summer".
Art combines the speculative nature of investment with all the trend psychology of fashion. Its an irrational market, and a really odd fit for Amazon.com.
Some recently IPO'd CEO walks into a Brooklyn gallery and sees a piece of art. He likes art but he's not much of a collector. He knows that art can be a very lucrative investment, but has no idea what sells in this wierdo art market. When he finds a piece at the gallery and has a good feeling about, he whips out his phone and does a google search of the artist/piece and finds and would you look at that! Prices are on Amazon.com with reviews and everything.
The artist/gallery knows this is happening, so they jack their price on Amazon. "Hey! This is worth $50k and I'm getting it for $10k". Plus when you show off your house, you can say "Oh, you like that? I got it at this cute little gallery in Greenpoint last summer".
Art combines the speculative nature of investment with all the trend psychology of fashion. Its an irrational market, and a really odd fit for Amazon.com.
The author is focusing on >$10000 and < $500 (posters and crap) It's the mid-range that is interesting here.
Would someone involved in the art world please comment.
I always thought seeing a painting in person would be crucial to buying art (if you're in the really high end). There's more than just how the painting looks and its provenance. It's a physical object that has layers, textures and patterns to it.
But then again, if it's only a stays symbol then who cares?
I always thought seeing a painting in person would be crucial to buying art (if you're in the really high end). There's more than just how the painting looks and its provenance. It's a physical object that has layers, textures and patterns to it.
But then again, if it's only a stays symbol then who cares?
The thing that I never see mentioned here is that it's not actually Amazon listing these items, but third party merchants through Amazon Marketplace. Doesn't that mean that the merchants are the ones setting these "high prices"?
If the merchant thinks their Monet is worth $1.5M, then they can sell it (or lower the price). Amazon pays very little for each listing and then takes their commission (and I don't know what that is, but even 5% of $1.5M is a shiny penny). So if it doesn't work, all that's lost is the dev hours spent on the experiment. If it does work, then Amazon has really increased their profit, and the customer/merchant experience is that much better
When the title is a question, the answer is usually 'No'.
The full title actually ends with "Let's hope so."
I deleted the "Let's hope so" because I thought it was editorializing. :-)
Let's hope so ;-)
I agree with others that is odd to focus on "name" high-end art for this article. I'm sure most of the sales will come out of the lower-end decorator market. Where people want to buy a good-sized under-$500 photo that will make a room, and it's very easy to use this service to browse a lot of pieces and find that kind of thing.
>> Should you buy this mediocre Mary Cassatt lithograph for “Price: $185,000.00 + $4.49 shipping”? (Jeff, is WaPo charging you $250 million plus $4.49 shipping? I don’t think so. )
If you have an Amazon Prime subscription, I bet you don't have to pay the $4.49 shipping.
If you have an Amazon Prime subscription, I bet you don't have to pay the $4.49 shipping.
I don't think eBay is Amazon's end goal with this. In the long run, it is more about Southeby's and Christies's. It will be a long slog to establish a reputation as a reliable source, but we all know Amazon is willing to go long.
It is strange to hear "Don't you need to see art in person?" because I felt the same way about books, shoes and eyeglasses.
I still do feel that way about books--I often take trips to B&N just to look around, even though I rarely purchase books from them.
I purchased my last pair of shoes from Zappos, and I don't think they would be nearly as attractive if they didn't have such a good return policy (the internet-equivalent of see it in person).
I purchased my last pair of shoes from Zappos, and I don't think they would be nearly as attractive if they didn't have such a good return policy (the internet-equivalent of see it in person).
It is launched just now.