> You do realize the Chinese government is not just content with keeping to itself and has repeatedly trying to impose [0] its [1] values [2] on the west too, right?
Except the Hollywood one you linked, which is mostly a money driven result by Hollywood itself, but the rest of your examples are really results of the China-western conflicts.
> the Chinese government has been pretty effective at keeping the "good bits" of westernization and tossing out anything that clashes with its ideology
I don't see what's wrong with that. China has been totalitarian for thousnds of years. I don't see why many westerners believe it has to be overthrone, especially given all the economical achievements in recent decades. Yes the CCP made mistakes, in fact many in the past, and still making some today. But it's a system that in overall worked for most people in this country, if there's a way to fix it without replacing it, why not?
> I, too, want Asian hatred to stop, but people should be rightfully upset with the CCP
If the people can distinguish their hatred and reasonable doubt, sure, be upset with the CCP. But is it what people can do as of today? Obviously not. The way these media outlets producing these anti-CCP articles are in a fashion to exagerrate hatred, not reasonable doubt. Just notice the wording they use, the way they shape their tone, and the image they are trying to plant in readers' mind. It's so obvious that people wrote these articles wants more conflicts through hatred. This is the danger I want to point out.
Is there another way? Of course! Write as many articles as you want, but please use an objective tone and wording, and most importantly, focus on facts! Educate your readers what they can do to verify the facts, how they can contribute TO THE GROUND on helping those in trouble. Just do what honest journalism should do.
I'm Chinese and I have a lot to say about articles like this.
"We hate China. X loves / helps / do business with China. So we should hate X too. Unless X become one of us to hate China together."
This is the common logic used in articles like this, where X is Apple in this case.
I don't see other use of these articles than spreading and deteriorating Chinese hate. Yes, just one or two articles may not be a problem, but we have seen these like forever now.
This is the psychological warfare the US government doing to its own citizen, and to all the world, spreading Chinese hate. This FUD movement has even turned in to business for US military, and political campaigns.
As a Chinese, I really want it to stop. I don't want the younger generation around the world grow up hating Chinese people. I don't want everyone treat me like an enemy.
But I'm so helpless. China, is so helpless.
Even without the Xinjiang issue. Even if China has a fully westernized democratic system, the US would still make up something for you to hate us. It's what this country does everytime some other country threatens its global hegemony, no matter what ideology or political system they have.
Yes, I know I sounds like a wumao now. I'm also surprised I would say something like a wumao someday.
So let me make it clear, I don't want to defend the allegation to the Chinese goverment. If there's unjust crime being made to Uyghurs in Xinjiang, I want it to stop, I would condemn those who responsible and want them to be punished by law. I want the government to implement supervision protocol to prevent anything like that to happen again.
But for programs that is helping the Uyghurs family to get employed, improve their working skill and living condition, without compromising their existing living standard, I would also praise the effort and want it to continue. If there's anything I can help to improve living conditions in areas like Xinjiang, either be donation or a chance to become a volunteer or a teacher, I would do it to help those people.
I don't know why I haven't hear a single westerner to say something like this. Shouldn't real justice to be punishing the bad and supporting the good? China like any other goverment, is not all good or all evil. But isn't the right thing always to help the people? Why not donate education resource to poor area like Xinjiang? Why not participate and help on the ground when you can? Because going into China would compromise your passport? your mind? or your pride?
It's the same logic people use to justify their "get out of China" actions. Because being inside China would force you to follow rules and laws you don't support, therefore it compromise your value, therefore you should get out of China.
I found these statement so selfish and condescending, almost like an excuse for their hate. Whether you compromised your value is your own problem. Nobody concern your own being as good or evil, it's your contribution to others lives that matters when we judge.
I like Apple. Most Chinese users like Apple. It makes people's life better, easier, and more enjoyable. That's absolutely a good thing that Apple did. With or without Apple, Chinese goverment already had access to all its people's data. Apple didn't made that worse with its participation.
Even if Apple compromised their value by following the Chinese rules, the benefits its products provided is still a good thing to Chinese people's lives.
You think it's bad not because Apple compromised its own value, but because Apple compromised YOUR value -- YOUR hatred toward China.
Did you see the evil cycle here? The more you hate China, the more evil someone's action would look like when they do business in China, and that makes you hate China even more. And all that facilitating this cycle is the US media outlets influenced by their Chinese FUD campagin.
I know I'm so helpless on this problem, but I want to wake up one or two people reading this as much as I can. Please stop the Chinese hate!
That would only feed the western media what they want, so no, I don't expect more details from the government. It's almost the de-facto solution that China use to address foreign publicity -- no comment.
But that doesn't mean they will ignore the problem, but on the contrary, they always take care the situation swiftly and always show off their results one way or the other. If you know China enough you should be familiar with how they operate.
What matters is they are giving all the resources to the people in the camp, and implementing strict regulation and accountability for all the activities in the camp, to make sure everything is running humanely and lawfully.
We were being taught that way, but not all people will become uncreative. In fact it's the opposite, your creativity has nothing to do with how you were taught. It's all about how you think. Even with conformist education there can be evolutionary talents coming out of it. It's my whole point writing this thread.
Like a normal person, I'm against any inhumane treatment in any form against innocent people.
These personal stories from these victims are most likely true. I feel sad and angry about what happened to them and would like to see changes.
You know, even average schools in China looks more like a prison than actual prisons in the west. (Which remind me of this: https://www.schoolprison.com/ )
You will often find 8-12 students packed in a small 10-20m^2 room with thousands of students in each building. Many schools would also have fences or walls all around to prevent students from escaping. Some photos:
These re-education camps/concentration camps (whatever you call them) are surely a downgrade from average schools because they are completely out of the government's pocket and constructed in a short period.
Only that, can seem inhumane to many people in developed country, even exaggerated by some BBC documentary, but it's just a reflection of average living condition in China.
It's not difficult to realize part of the CCP's narrative must hold some truth -- the Xinjiang situation was mostly a response to the non-stopping terror attacks in the region for the last couple of decades. And depending on the "radicalization level" of the people being contained, the security level of these camps must be ranging from a lot more usual to heavily guarded.
So yes, there will be prison-level camps and many near-prison-level camps.
I believe most of these incidents reported by western media are conducted independently by the officials in the camps under stricter lock-down, which provided an out-lawed environment for them to conduct the crimes. However, I don't believe any of these are systematically orchestrated and oversaw by the CCP from the top down. If you argue otherwise, you better provide some strong proof, i.e. recording of high-rank CCP officials admitting such an evil plan. Because it's a very, very serious allegation.
Those individuals who conducted these crimes are directly responsible for what they did and must be held responsible. There also must be regulations on these camps to make sure incidents like these never happen again.
Then where's the justice held? You must then ask. I don't have a solid answer to it. I hope those responsible already got what they deserve. But those verdicts probably won't be made public. You surely can understand why given the heat on all of this.
But I'm more confident that the CCP has placed better regulation on all the camps to prevent such incidents from happening again. The reason is CCP has invited western reporters to visit and investigate on the ground. Of course, they probably won't find any evidence that those incidents ever happened, but they will be shown with all the regulations of these places to a degree that no problem can be found. Surely western reporters also understand that very well -- most haven't responded to the invitation because they know they won't be able to dig more dirt on this.
Another level of discussion is whether it's humane to force/mandate people to attend re-education camps. If you want we can get into that as well.
I think if you really want to help people in those camps, you should start talking about donations, improving their living conditions, providing educational resources, even collaboration on education projects, help them graduate/get out of there, and get a job sooner.
I want to show some folks on HN, even with Chinese people, you can have a civil and reasonable conversation on controversial topics. We are not liars, nor monsters without compassion. We are also normal people, just like you. It's completely up to you to listen or deny.
I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking.
I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection.
I envy you, having been taught so many ways to learn, to listen, to ask.
You know, in China, they don't teach you those. They fill you with hard knowledge, 1+1=2 kind of knowledge. There's always only one correct answer: the answer from the textbook, from the instructor, from the authority. No question is asked unless you forgot what you should have memorized.
I envy you, having the freedom to argue 1+1=0 and discover binary.
As Chinese, we've been taught to believe, to repeat, to bow down to seniors, teachers, authorities.
It's the way of life here.
It's also the reason I came to the US.
And yet, here we are.
"You cannot trust anything reported out of China."
"No use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed."
Do you hear the racists in these words? Do you feel the rejection of listening, the denial of communication, the blockage of thinking in those expressions?
Chinese are liars. -- is what they want to say.
Because the west has free speech and free press, so everything the western media report must be the truth. -- is what they believe.
Folks, where is your doubt? Where is your wisdom of knowledge?
Just because Chinese people were taught to remember the only answer, doesn't mean they can't think critically. Have you ever listened to them? Are you dismissing them just because of where they were born or how they were taught?
Just because you have a free press, doesn't mean your media is unbiased. Who are their sponsors? What political spectrum do they stand for? Is it economically or politically beneficial to talk trash about China?
Now you have to ask: What's your defense for the CCP? How brainwashed are you? Do you condemn the CCP for what they alleged doing?
My answer is simple: I will stay doubtful until I have first-hand contact or undeniable evidence showing one way or the other. Until then, I can't say if those allegations are real or not. If they were real, I (and I believe most Chinese people) would condemn the practice, and would like to demand a change.
"I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad."
-- It's a very common argument lot of Chinese people would use. Because it's relatively easy to find people living in Xinjiang or who come from Xinjiang online. Me too, had several conversations with folks from the area, some on Telegram where they were using VPN to connect, and some are friends of friends. Of course, we would talk about the headlines all over the western media. And every time, the answer I got is they are still working, living, studying as normal. There were conflicts in some areas in the southern part, but I haven't got any more detail than that.
These conversations are not proof of China not doing what it's been alleged to do. But you have to understand it's much more difficult to prove something you didn't do instead of something you did, and yet these kinds of personal encounters are the closest things we have to give us a perspective of the situation in the area.
To think back, what is the closest encounter you had to the situation in Xinjiang? Did you talk to any victim from the area? Of course, you would immediately argue that CCP wiped clean all witness and evidence, so finding a victim is almost impossible, which is another allegation that's almost impossible to prove otherwise --- how convenient of you.
But anyway, the closest encounter of yours is almost always the media stories you read, from western media, all over the places. But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative? Why people are saying things to discredit every word comes out Chinese people's mouth? Doesn't it feel strange to you?
And it's not easy for someone to speak up for China either. I -- writing these words, am seriously worried about losing my job in the US just because of this. So I'm using an alias account. YouTubers that speaking up for China are constantly being depromoted, demonetized, restricted for sharing, or banned for their words. Is it free speech should look like? Is the west deliberately running some kind of campaign to discredit and disconnect China from the rest of the world?
Of course, that's an allegation without concrete proof. But you can find it is logically sound. There are many political movements and campaigns by the US and other five eye countries trying to contain the political and economical development of China - so their countries can continue to sit on top of the world's hegemony. It's not strange that these political and economical campaigns had affected public opinion and implanted negative views of China in its citizens' minds.
We can have a lot of allegations back and forth. Maybe they are all wrong - or all true. But the bottom line is, what kind of thinking you want to promote.
If you are spreading denial and racism, I would condemn you regardless if your arguments are true or not.
Please, don't let a Chinese person point out your fallacies. We were supposed to not learned that.
Except the Hollywood one you linked, which is mostly a money driven result by Hollywood itself, but the rest of your examples are really results of the China-western conflicts.
> the Chinese government has been pretty effective at keeping the "good bits" of westernization and tossing out anything that clashes with its ideology
I don't see what's wrong with that. China has been totalitarian for thousnds of years. I don't see why many westerners believe it has to be overthrone, especially given all the economical achievements in recent decades. Yes the CCP made mistakes, in fact many in the past, and still making some today. But it's a system that in overall worked for most people in this country, if there's a way to fix it without replacing it, why not?
> I, too, want Asian hatred to stop, but people should be rightfully upset with the CCP
If the people can distinguish their hatred and reasonable doubt, sure, be upset with the CCP. But is it what people can do as of today? Obviously not. The way these media outlets producing these anti-CCP articles are in a fashion to exagerrate hatred, not reasonable doubt. Just notice the wording they use, the way they shape their tone, and the image they are trying to plant in readers' mind. It's so obvious that people wrote these articles wants more conflicts through hatred. This is the danger I want to point out.
Is there another way? Of course! Write as many articles as you want, but please use an objective tone and wording, and most importantly, focus on facts! Educate your readers what they can do to verify the facts, how they can contribute TO THE GROUND on helping those in trouble. Just do what honest journalism should do.