University of Chicago Graduate Students Vote to Unionize(chicagomaroon.com)
chicagomaroon.com
University of Chicago Graduate Students Vote to Unionize
https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2017/10/19/graduate-student-unionization-uchicago-nlrb/
229 comments
I responded to another comment along this line of thought. I took a relatively common "STEM" view until I joined a fellowship cohort with some students in humanities. Their teaching loads were completely ridiculous as grad students and they seemed to have a nearly abusive relationships with their departments because of it.
I got my PhD a while ago, but I think unionizing is a terrible idea. First, while the hours are long, tuition is usually paid for / waived and we got a small stipend and OK health insurance for 2-4 hours of teaching a week. I graduated with no debt.
Much more important though is that most unions make work predictable. Hours, duties, etc. However, most PhD research is highly unpredictable. If I want to set up the test while the conditions are good, I may want to work NOW; hearing that I'm out of hours and need to do it tomorrow is the last thing I need. If I got my test set up (in shared lab) and going great I may want to go as long as I can stand it -- it may be broken tomorrow.
At least last 2 years of grad school my #1 desire was to finish and go use my new PhD in real world for real money. If union imposed policies add 1-2 years to the process I would not want them.
Much more important though is that most unions make work predictable. Hours, duties, etc. However, most PhD research is highly unpredictable. If I want to set up the test while the conditions are good, I may want to work NOW; hearing that I'm out of hours and need to do it tomorrow is the last thing I need. If I got my test set up (in shared lab) and going great I may want to go as long as I can stand it -- it may be broken tomorrow.
At least last 2 years of grad school my #1 desire was to finish and go use my new PhD in real world for real money. If union imposed policies add 1-2 years to the process I would not want them.
I am at a university (Michigan) where the union is primarily for graduate students that teach. I could not tell from the writeup, but it sounds like this is for _all_ graduate students at UChicago.
Being in an engineering department, I never had an issue with having to teach a heavy load of classes. But, some of my friends in humanities departments had a teaching load of - 6+ hours of classroom time + discussions + grading long papers - for classes of 50+ students. Being part of the union allowed them to put pressure on their departments that they needed to hire other TAs so that they could focus on their research and not spend additional years writing their dissertation.
I don't think being part of a union is going to stop any motivated student from doing their own research. And part of joining the union is to ensure that their members do receive a good stipend and have their health insurance paid for while maintaining a reasonable teaching load.
Being in an engineering department, I never had an issue with having to teach a heavy load of classes. But, some of my friends in humanities departments had a teaching load of - 6+ hours of classroom time + discussions + grading long papers - for classes of 50+ students. Being part of the union allowed them to put pressure on their departments that they needed to hire other TAs so that they could focus on their research and not spend additional years writing their dissertation.
I don't think being part of a union is going to stop any motivated student from doing their own research. And part of joining the union is to ensure that their members do receive a good stipend and have their health insurance paid for while maintaining a reasonable teaching load.
It is definitely possible that my worries are overblown. However I did see a lab where researchers would close doors before moving a desk to a new location because they are not supposed to as moving furniture was a union job (and requesting this via official channels takes days instead of minutes).
When I saw it first I thought it was a joke and laughed, but the folks working there were serious and asked me to shut up lest I get them in trouble. Maybe this is an edge case, but this still worries me when I hear about unionizing -- formalization of duties is extremely inefficient in most research environments and is often a flip side of unionization.
Again, I admit that my fears might be overblown.
When I saw it first I thought it was a joke and laughed, but the folks working there were serious and asked me to shut up lest I get them in trouble. Maybe this is an edge case, but this still worries me when I hear about unionizing -- formalization of duties is extremely inefficient in most research environments and is often a flip side of unionization.
Again, I admit that my fears might be overblown.
Why do a group of people need permission to start a union? Can a group of people unionize without permission of their employer? Does the employer need to sign a form or something?
I thought unions were just groups of people who bargained with collective power. Why don't all researchers at these universities just use their abilities as leverage? Most people in universities are hired because they're one of a few thousand people in the world who are up to speed on a specific topic. That makes them very difficult to replace, one would think.
I thought unions were just groups of people who bargained with collective power. Why don't all researchers at these universities just use their abilities as leverage? Most people in universities are hired because they're one of a few thousand people in the world who are up to speed on a specific topic. That makes them very difficult to replace, one would think.
Under US law, the only way to gain recognition as the bargaining representative of a unit of employees—and the only way an employer is legally allowed to recognize you as the sole bargaining agent—is by demonstrating that you have the support of a majority of the bargaining unit, usually through a union certification election.
I don't think there's anything legally preventing a subset of employees from banding together and withholding work until just that subset gets what they want, if that's what you're asking. It's just not a terribly effective tactic, and obviously doesn't leave the benefits in place for future employees the way that a NLRB-sanctioned collective bargaining agreement does.
I don't think there's anything legally preventing a subset of employees from banding together and withholding work until just that subset gets what they want, if that's what you're asking. It's just not a terribly effective tactic, and obviously doesn't leave the benefits in place for future employees the way that a NLRB-sanctioned collective bargaining agreement does.
The sad thing that they will learn which my wife's school learnt was that, as a union employee, you are no longer a student. That is, all the tax breaks, ability to not pay SS, etc. all those fees come right back. In the end, they raised student wages but the take home pay was cut. Then they paid union dues...
This is either hyperbole or an example of the university punishing unionization, because I know of at least a half dozen unionized universities where grad students do get those benefits.
The comments here are giving me more questions than answers...
I genuinely don't know what it's about. At my university, the work to do (5 years in my case) existed out of studying for exams, sometimes group projects to build something (not something usable outside of a presentation for points), and in the last year a thesis (not at all as publish-worthy as a phd paper). This spanned "bachelor" and "master" but those names were actually retrofitted to an older system.
The article and comments talk about labor by students in university.
My university was in Europe. Please enlighten me, do students do actual labor in US universities? I'd love to understand what this is about. Thanks!
I genuinely don't know what it's about. At my university, the work to do (5 years in my case) existed out of studying for exams, sometimes group projects to build something (not something usable outside of a presentation for points), and in the last year a thesis (not at all as publish-worthy as a phd paper). This spanned "bachelor" and "master" but those names were actually retrofitted to an older system.
The article and comments talk about labor by students in university.
My university was in Europe. Please enlighten me, do students do actual labor in US universities? I'd love to understand what this is about. Thanks!
In the US graduate students typically do "grunt work" as part of their program. For example, you might be a research assistant, where you help out with your professor's research. Or a teaching assistant, where you help a professor teach a low-level/intro class (things like grading or preparation of class materials). For this you receive a small stipend.
The original idea was that a professor takes you under his or her wing to teach you and help you with your research and in exchange you help out the professor with what they are doing. Nowadays graduate students feel like they're just being treated as cheap labor without the professor/university holding up their end of the bargain.
The original idea was that a professor takes you under his or her wing to teach you and help you with your research and in exchange you help out the professor with what they are doing. Nowadays graduate students feel like they're just being treated as cheap labor without the professor/university holding up their end of the bargain.
As far as I understand the terminology, "bachelor" matches "undergrad student" and "master" matches "grad student". Is that right?
So this bachelor and master was just combined in one single 5-year program in my case.
Research, being teaching assistant, and writing papers was done by those who went for a PhD at my university, that is, after those 5 years, those who chose to do a PhD after receiving your master diploma.
Do you think it says something about the quality of the university, when master students were not teaching/writing papers/doing research, but simply doing exams as usual...? (Ok there was the thesis in the last year, but that was really more like a larger final project)
Most top universities in the world are indeed not in Europe, but in my country at least is was considered a good one.
So this bachelor and master was just combined in one single 5-year program in my case.
Research, being teaching assistant, and writing papers was done by those who went for a PhD at my university, that is, after those 5 years, those who chose to do a PhD after receiving your master diploma.
Do you think it says something about the quality of the university, when master students were not teaching/writing papers/doing research, but simply doing exams as usual...? (Ok there was the thesis in the last year, but that was really more like a larger final project)
Most top universities in the world are indeed not in Europe, but in my country at least is was considered a good one.
See my sibling comment. But, yes, undergraduate = bachleors, graduate = masters or professional, post-graduate = PhD.
Typically, these labor issues revolve around post-graduate students who expect to be at school for many years. And not students who are just pursuing a Masters program, which only lasts a year or two.
Typically, these labor issues revolve around post-graduate students who expect to be at school for many years. And not students who are just pursuing a Masters program, which only lasts a year or two.
> In the US graduate students typically do "grunt work" as part of their program.
PhD students do that.
Most graduate students are not PhD students. Your typical Master's degree program does not include any gruntwork.
PhD students do that.
Most graduate students are not PhD students. Your typical Master's degree program does not include any gruntwork.
Yes, in the US, graduate students usually do some amount of work, either as teachers or researchers. Particularly if they are on track for a PhD and expect to take more than 2 years to finish their studies.
In the US, higher education usually progresses: * 4 years for a Bachelors (BA/BS) * 2-3+ years for a Masters (MA/MS) or professional degree (medicine, law, etc) * 3+ years for a PhD.
In the US, higher education usually progresses: * 4 years for a Bachelors (BA/BS) * 2-3+ years for a Masters (MA/MS) or professional degree (medicine, law, etc) * 3+ years for a PhD.
University of Chicago is private, right? So this falls under Federal purview (unionization issues at state schools are under state jurisdiction). With the NLRB in the current administration, I can't imagine a friendly ruling towards the graduate students when the university administration's inevitable appeal boils up.
Grad students aren't grad students forever, right? So it must be darn hard to have union membership turn over.
Grads today in the union will leave in a few years and not stay decades.
Unions i know work when lives in the same job are represented. And contracts last 4-6 yrs.
Not sure i see a chance for long term benefit.
Grads today in the union will leave in a few years and not stay decades.
Unions i know work when lives in the same job are represented. And contracts last 4-6 yrs.
Not sure i see a chance for long term benefit.
Awesome news! I hope this rapidly growing network of graduate unions somehow jumps over to infect the tech world. Strong unions in tech could really make big changes in US politics.
ucla grad student anecdote: we have a union. but a few students are not part of it. they do accept benefits for being quiet about work issues or outright siding with the faculty.
just to set a level of the workers issue I am talking about, recently they cut in half the salary of a category, to double the number of people. from 3 to 6. while each teaches a class in full, to 20+ undergrads each. pay is now tuition plus enough to be 2 grand a year above CA poverty line.
just to set a level of the workers issue I am talking about, recently they cut in half the salary of a category, to double the number of people. from 3 to 6. while each teaches a class in full, to 20+ undergrads each. pay is now tuition plus enough to be 2 grand a year above CA poverty line.
Abolish tenure. Problem solved.
A significant change in how graduate studies may occur.
> An e-mail from Executive Vice Provost David Nirenberg on Sunday cautioned that unionization would introduce a “third party” that could interfere with graduate students’ relationships with the University.
That, of course, being the point.
That, of course, being the point.
It's funny that the liberal ivory tower academics in charge don't want unions...... Oh the... I'd say irony but it is really hypocrisy.
The students and professors tend to be in favor, but they aren't the university. It's the administration that tends to hate the idea.
EDIT: speaking from my limited experience with the unionization effort at Brown. My main point is that faculty are not the university.
EDIT: speaking from my limited experience with the unionization effort at Brown. My main point is that faculty are not the university.
Why would professors be in favor of a move that would likely make it harder to get the cheap labor needed to churn out publications?
Because when I admit a student to my lab, I'm talking about spending five years helping someone grow as a future colleague, and, in the process, advance the science produced in my lab.
"Cheap labor churning out publications" doesn't support those goals.
I also was a graduate student once, and am endowed with basic human empathy.
"Cheap labor churning out publications" doesn't support those goals.
I also was a graduate student once, and am endowed with basic human empathy.
Because they care about their students, but can't pay them any more than the university allows.
I think you are overly cynical. To me it looks like many professors view their grad students more like a protege than a minion. As such while the greater system is perverse, and the professor looks out for themselves, many professors would still have their students interests in mind.
Perhaps you are right. My wording may have also been too strong. But I still think that unions are not in the best interests of the faculty.
Well, of course they are not in the best interest of faculty. The point is at least some of the faculty is perfectly human enough to advocate policy that is not necessarily in their own best interest, for the betterment of others they care about.
The university pays for the graduate student salary, not the faculty.
Edit: My knowledge of funding comes from a sample size of 1 (wife's cousin doing genetic engineering out of St Louis) so it's possible I've made a mistake extrapolating too widely.
Edit: My knowledge of funding comes from a sample size of 1 (wife's cousin doing genetic engineering out of St Louis) so it's possible I've made a mistake extrapolating too widely.
I'm a grad student myself, so I'm speaking from experience.
As far as I know, in virtually all US public universities, faculty members have to pay for research assistants from their own grant money. The university I am at helps the faculty by charging less for the student's tuition (out-of-state to in-state).
Maybe you are confusing RA funding with TA funding?
As far as I know, in virtually all US public universities, faculty members have to pay for research assistants from their own grant money. The university I am at helps the faculty by charging less for the student's tuition (out-of-state to in-state).
Maybe you are confusing RA funding with TA funding?
It depends on the universities. Yeah for most public universities, the grad students are directly funded by the professor's research. In many other universities, grad students are funded through the department, as in they are guaranteed a salary; the salary would come from the professor (or other fellowships the student got themselves) if they a research assistant, and it would come from the university if they are a teaching assistant. They are guaranteed funding because if the student doesn't get research funding, then the department sticks them in a TA position so that they get a salary.
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Isn't it mainly TAs who want unionization? At least in the physical sciences, RAs are indeed paid with grant money.
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My graduate students are funded directly from my startup funding and grants.
When they tried to unionize students and postdocs at a previous workplace the most vociferous opponents were the full-time professors, protected not only by their public-sector union, but by tenure as well. They would do such a thing, wouldn't they, it would limit their power.
Huh, I'm not getting that impression from Brown's professors at all. We're working toward unionization as well.
The sad truth is that over the last 60 years the academics have been seeing more and more power over the University ripped away from them by middle management. So they aren't really in charge. If you speak with an academic in the US about this they will agree that it's a bad situation for everyone...except the middle managers.
The kind of profs that are the norm at Chicago aren't living off their educational salaries.
Yeah, the administration is not "liberal ivory tower academics". The administration tend to be conservative business folks forever at odds with the university's faculty.
Maybe it's time to question your belief that academia is inherently liberal.
Or perhaps recognize that "left leaning" is not a monolithically held block of universal ideas.
In some sense though most academic departments that study labor movements would probably argue that unions are a good thing. So that is why it seems hypocritical.
You've now gone from "Something the provost said" to the stance of most faculty in a single department.
One of these things is not like the others.
One of these things is not like the others.
This will end well...
I went to grad school at a unionized school (UC Berkeley), and was generally fine with the union. I never directly took advantage of the union protections, but it's nice knowing that you won't just be at the mercy of your advisor should something go wrong (though having an advisor you can trust in the first place is obviously preferable). I know people who took advantage of maternity leave, and I felt that the benefits we were provided were a cut above those at Stanford (who only recently got dental/vision coverage).
> I went to grad school at a unionized school
Me too. One time the department admins decided it was too expensive to have the restrooms in the grad student offices cleaned more than once a week. We're talking about a men's room with a single toilet and a single urinal, shared by a dozens of people pulling verrry long days (some were just sleeping in their offices). The restroom was already pretty gross when it was being cleaned 3x/wk. Predictably, the change to 1x/week cleaning made things much, much worse. Honestly, it was a health hazard at that point. The administration didn't care. Faculty didn't care. Everyone could see that it was disgusting, but no amount of griping by the people who had to use those facilities had any effect.
Someone finally had the bright idea to contact the graduate student employee union steward, who was himself a graduate student in another department. He came down, took one look, and walked over to have a chat with department administration. I don't know what was said, but they resumed 3x/wk cleaning immediately.
Me too. One time the department admins decided it was too expensive to have the restrooms in the grad student offices cleaned more than once a week. We're talking about a men's room with a single toilet and a single urinal, shared by a dozens of people pulling verrry long days (some were just sleeping in their offices). The restroom was already pretty gross when it was being cleaned 3x/wk. Predictably, the change to 1x/week cleaning made things much, much worse. Honestly, it was a health hazard at that point. The administration didn't care. Faculty didn't care. Everyone could see that it was disgusting, but no amount of griping by the people who had to use those facilities had any effect.
Someone finally had the bright idea to contact the graduate student employee union steward, who was himself a graduate student in another department. He came down, took one look, and walked over to have a chat with department administration. I don't know what was said, but they resumed 3x/wk cleaning immediately.
Hey fellow former autoworker!
I also found that the grad student union was pretty well run and did reasonable things at Berkeley. If they didn't go crazy-hard-left there of all places, it seems unlikely for some of the more far-fetched scenarios to play out elsewhere.
The biggest issue I recall them addressing was health insurance for spouses and dependents of grad students, namely defending that from being cut. I think they did good work.
I also found that the grad student union was pretty well run and did reasonable things at Berkeley. If they didn't go crazy-hard-left there of all places, it seems unlikely for some of the more far-fetched scenarios to play out elsewhere.
The biggest issue I recall them addressing was health insurance for spouses and dependents of grad students, namely defending that from being cut. I think they did good work.
I also attended a unionized school (UMich) and I also appreciated the union. Our union frequently pushed for wage increases and other benefits, and our healthcare was absolutely stellar (basically full and free coverage for most common things, no co-pay even). Obviously not ALL of that can be attributed to the union, but I really appreciated knowing that an organization had my back.
Curious: did unionization reduce the # of graduate students UC Berkeley was able to allow in?
This has been a common criticism I've heard, and would have potential ramifications on the long-term research pipeline if it were true + spread nationally.
This has been a common criticism I've heard, and would have potential ramifications on the long-term research pipeline if it were true + spread nationally.
Not obviously, though most people I knew were in reasonably well funded departments/programs, and at any rate they were unionized well before I got there, so I wasn't around to observe any changes.
For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that the research pipeline isn't already overfull. The tenure track shouldn't be the goal of all incoming graduate students, but I think the increasing length of postdoc positions, the massive oversupply of adjunct professors, and historically low rates of grant funding are hints that there's something wrong.
For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that the research pipeline isn't already overfull. The tenure track shouldn't be the goal of all incoming graduate students, but I think the increasing length of postdoc positions, the massive oversupply of adjunct professors, and historically low rates of grant funding are hints that there's something wrong.
Given the pyramid scheme nature of graduate programs, this may be a positive outcome.
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A PhD student at UChicago whom I know well told me that they significantly limited who was allowed to vote to make this happen.
Not allowed to vote if:
* Not currently onsite (field work or pre-grad research elsewhere for a year)
* If you were not onsite in the previous year (anyone who did field work last year)
* Anyone who took a year break from teaching was not allowed to vote even if returning to teaching this year
* Anyone in 1st or 2nd year not allowed to vote (despite most years left to live under this union)
Not allowed to vote if:
* Not currently onsite (field work or pre-grad research elsewhere for a year)
* If you were not onsite in the previous year (anyone who did field work last year)
* Anyone who took a year break from teaching was not allowed to vote even if returning to teaching this year
* Anyone in 1st or 2nd year not allowed to vote (despite most years left to live under this union)
“They” being who? The criteria were negotiated by the union organizers and the university, with the NLRB mediating.
Then there you have your answer. That is who set them
So both sides, plus a government body which is going to be skewed anti-labor in a Republican administration.
I can’t believe I have to spell this out, but: then it would seem difficult to claim the criteria were structured to bias the process in either direction. If anything, it would be the organization with millions of dollars at their disposal that would have the upper hand.
This seems to contradict the criteria in a child post, citing. [1]
Is there any citation for your claims?
From the cited list, it seems that anyone who got paid on a regular basis by the university over the past two years could vote.
[1] http://knowthefacts.uchicago.edu/
Is there any citation for your claims?
From the cited list, it seems that anyone who got paid on a regular basis by the university over the past two years could vote.
[1] http://knowthefacts.uchicago.edu/
Know the Facts is provided by the University of Chicago.
Ah. Good to know. No further questions, your honour.
Ah. Good to know. No further questions, your honour.
Autumn 2016 is only one year ago... just fyi, not two.
So no contradiction - that is only ppl who taught in the last one year. So it does not include those who took a year off or did field work.
So no contradiction - that is only ppl who taught in the last one year. So it does not include those who took a year off or did field work.
Any idea what the criteria were? Was it by department? Degree status? Teaching vs fellowship status?
http://knowthefacts.uchicago.edu/
eligible voters are
"All graduate students in the School of Divinity, School of Social Service Administration, Division of the Social Sciences, Division of the Humanities, Division of the Biological Sciences, and Division of the Physical Sciences who are or were compensated as full-time and regular part-time teaching assistants, research assistants, course assistants, workshop coordinators, writing interns, preceptors, language assistants, instructors, lecturers, lectors, and teaching interns, in at least one quarter of Autumn 2016, Winter 2017, Spring 2017, Summer 2017, or Autumn 2017, and who have not yet attained their degree or otherwise completed their course of study."
Some wikipedia resulted in 600 (law)+ 400 ( medschool)+ 3140 (business)+noise term ~5000 grad students. I bet the rest of the gap is just low turnout
Some wikipedia resulted in 600 (law)+ 400 ( medschool)+ 3140 (business)+noise term ~5000 grad students. I bet the rest of the gap is just low turnout
I updated the parent comment
This is a fantastic idea. Graduate students have to compete for so little funding (or even just unfunded slots) that the wage and conditions are at a bare minimum. Just a shot at those sweet professor jobs (whether or not they exist) or just adding to the world's knowledge send to be so desirable that people will work ridiculous hours with no benefits for pitiful pay. But why should the grads compete with each other?
What's next should be academia uniting to distribute funding internally, rather than stock with the farcical lotteries that are grant proposals.
What's next should be academia uniting to distribute funding internally, rather than stock with the farcical lotteries that are grant proposals.
Not every project is deserving of funding. Grants provide at least one filter, and at least in my experience have some correlation to merit. There's just not enough money, spreading it out doesn't help.
Attaching funding to academic politics sounds like the death of innovation, but that may be an exaggeration.
Attaching funding to academic politics sounds like the death of innovation, but that may be an exaggeration.
Knowing what projects "deserve" funding before they're funded is a harder problem than any funding body would like to admit. I'm not proposing all available money is divided up equally, in saying that the application should be done in an efficient way by a union of academics.
~1600 students participated in the vote, but on wikipedia the school has 10k postgrads. How does this work?
This is very interesting. Having been a graduate student who threw off the reins to do basically the same work in industry at 6-7x the compensation with better benefits I support them.
The graduate students at Penn have been trying to unionize for a while (http://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/update-grad-students-un...). For the most part, the divide is between engineering students (who are well-funded) and the rest (who are not).
I wonder if this will spark student athletes in major football and basketball programs to follow suit.
This would be a long time coming. In my experience athletes at big programs are even more vulnerable and more exploited than graduate students.
It's a similar situation, but there are even less professional jobs, less alternatives after graduation, and a n increased risk for injury.
It's a similar situation, but there are even less professional jobs, less alternatives after graduation, and a n increased risk for injury.
Do they get to take advantage of labor laws protecting organizing since they're not actually, like, employed? Obviously the minimum wage doesn't apply to them...
If they don't have the protection, doing that could jeopardize any chance they have of going to the NFL (not that most of them make it anyways).
If they don't have the protection, doing that could jeopardize any chance they have of going to the NFL (not that most of them make it anyways).
Student athletes' biggest protection from retaliation is probably their incredible power over the institution and high level of visibility, as demonstrated by the actions of the Mizzou players during #concernedstudent1950.
Football players, at least in D1, have also been determined to at least have some of the rights to concerted action protected under the NLRA:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/02/02/nlrb-general-...
Of course, while that does protect them from their current employer (the school), I don't think it can protect them against the reluctance of a potential future employer (like the NFL).
Football players, at least in D1, have also been determined to at least have some of the rights to concerted action protected under the NLRA:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/02/02/nlrb-general-...
Of course, while that does protect them from their current employer (the school), I don't think it can protect them against the reluctance of a potential future employer (like the NFL).
There are already a fair number of graduate student unions so probably not.
Probably not at UChicago.
They definitely should.
In higher ED this seems like a long time coming.
Grad students essentially work as slaves for the Uni's & professors with triple-duty in lab time for professor + teaching + self-research.
Their reward comes in notoriety & bi-lines on research that helps them become professors in their own right in higher ed.
The cost is minimized rights to IP they've been crucial in inventing, outrageously low wages, and an average of $100k (1) in debt.
The brutality is sold as a right of passage, but the reality is the incentives are completely out of whack - uni's have an inverse incentive to admit Phd / grad students to benefit from the wage-slave / revenue generating aspect.
And it shows in the data - there are now a "glut" of PhD's that are far outpacing the very limited # of academic positions.
The system needs fixing and if unionization exerts some pressure on correcting the macro problem I am all for it.
(1) https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/03/25/how-much-out...
(2) https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2016/10/academic-job-market-...
Grad students essentially work as slaves for the Uni's & professors with triple-duty in lab time for professor + teaching + self-research.
Their reward comes in notoriety & bi-lines on research that helps them become professors in their own right in higher ed.
The cost is minimized rights to IP they've been crucial in inventing, outrageously low wages, and an average of $100k (1) in debt.
The brutality is sold as a right of passage, but the reality is the incentives are completely out of whack - uni's have an inverse incentive to admit Phd / grad students to benefit from the wage-slave / revenue generating aspect.
And it shows in the data - there are now a "glut" of PhD's that are far outpacing the very limited # of academic positions.
The system needs fixing and if unionization exerts some pressure on correcting the macro problem I am all for it.
(1) https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/03/25/how-much-out...
(2) https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2016/10/academic-job-market-...
While these are valid issues, there are big differences between the concerns of Masters and PhD students in the US that I think you conflating together.
Doctoral students at major research universities rarely pay tuition, particularly at a place as highly ranked as UChicago, and usually are given a large enough stipend to live off of (1). Relative to the amount of work, however, the pay is low and the number of faculty jobs on the other end of this is shrinking. Masters students on the other hand typically do not engage in their own independent research nor do they teach their own classes. They are basically treated like undergraduates with a harder course load. The tuitions for Masters degrees (for which few scholarships are available), on the other hand, are outrageously high.
(1) [https://grad.uchicago.edu/admissions/funding/doctoral](https...
Doctoral students at major research universities rarely pay tuition, particularly at a place as highly ranked as UChicago, and usually are given a large enough stipend to live off of (1). Relative to the amount of work, however, the pay is low and the number of faculty jobs on the other end of this is shrinking. Masters students on the other hand typically do not engage in their own independent research nor do they teach their own classes. They are basically treated like undergraduates with a harder course load. The tuitions for Masters degrees (for which few scholarships are available), on the other hand, are outrageously high.
(1) [https://grad.uchicago.edu/admissions/funding/doctoral](https...
Masters from UW-Madison here. Got it in 1987. Back then, I did pay tuition but it was super cheap, like $2400/year. The TA pay (I taught the intro to programming class) was about $16K/year for 2 semesters of teaching. It was just enough to live on.
I've got a kid going into math who wants a PhD. I'd love to see what that looks like for him at various good universities (maybe it's lower in the comments).
I've got a kid going into math who wants a PhD. I'd love to see what that looks like for him at various good universities (maybe it's lower in the comments).
UChicago is notoriously stingy stipend-wise for top-tier school. A good friend ultimately went to Yale because their stipend nearly double.... also they were Yale.
> also they were Yale
Depends what you are studying. Their CS department is notoriously shoddy (I know the Yale undergrads were up in arms about this a few years back).
Depends what you are studying. Their CS department is notoriously shoddy (I know the Yale undergrads were up in arms about this a few years back).
It's also undergrad, so the quality of the department doesn't actually matter. You also get to put Yale on your resume.
In many of the physical sciences both Masters and PhD students are usually paid a living wage, do not pay tuition, and work double or triple duty as student, teacher, researcher. These students usually do not accrue additional debt beyond what was needed for their undergraduate degree (if any). Despite their importance to many parts of the university system such as instruction, research, and funding (NSF proposals that don't have explicit funding for grad students are D.O.A.), they can still be treated pretty unfairly. Given the hours they work, it is still most common for them to be on the books as part-time employees (0.49 full-time) which cuts off access to employee sponsored health care that is mandated under the ACA. In almost all cases they have no benefits outside of tuition payment.
I think grad students unionizing is a fantastic idea. They are in every way the critical grease that keeps the capitalistic university system running. They should be able to protect themselves and have a stronger impact in how the universities are run.
The only concern I have is the huge turnover. Unions are most effective and most rationale when the members are committed for life. The longest any of these students could be there is 15 years (5 masters, 10 PhD). This would be very extreme. Most are looking to be out in 2-6 years.
Are there any other examples of unions for occupations that have mandatory turnover or term limits?
I think grad students unionizing is a fantastic idea. They are in every way the critical grease that keeps the capitalistic university system running. They should be able to protect themselves and have a stronger impact in how the universities are run.
The only concern I have is the huge turnover. Unions are most effective and most rationale when the members are committed for life. The longest any of these students could be there is 15 years (5 masters, 10 PhD). This would be very extreme. Most are looking to be out in 2-6 years.
Are there any other examples of unions for occupations that have mandatory turnover or term limits?
> Given the hours they work, it is still most common for them to be on the books as part-time employees (0.49 full-time) which cuts off access to employee sponsored health care that is mandated under the ACA. In almost all cases they have no benefits outside of tuition payment.
As far as I'm aware, all reputable American colleges will do the following for graduate students who are teaching assistants: 1) waive tuition 2) pay for the majority of a health insurance plan 3) issue a modest living stipend that's enough to live on, albeit not very comfortably. I know this is the case for Purdue.
As far as I'm aware, all reputable American colleges will do the following for graduate students who are teaching assistants: 1) waive tuition 2) pay for the majority of a health insurance plan 3) issue a modest living stipend that's enough to live on, albeit not very comfortably. I know this is the case for Purdue.
These are precisely the kinds of things that unions will fight for though.
Just assuming that the university (out of its goodwill?) will do any of those things is kind of ludicrous. At my university, we had to fight tooth and nail (we had a union) to get the university to improve our health insurance and full waive our tuition (They did a tricky thing where they would waive all people with 50% TA-ships, and then they gave everyone a 49% one. Universities are not noble, altruistic actors. Far far from it)
Just assuming that the university (out of its goodwill?) will do any of those things is kind of ludicrous. At my university, we had to fight tooth and nail (we had a union) to get the university to improve our health insurance and full waive our tuition (They did a tricky thing where they would waive all people with 50% TA-ships, and then they gave everyone a 49% one. Universities are not noble, altruistic actors. Far far from it)
These things come at a cost. If the cost of grad students goes up, we'll see some combination of the following:
1 - Less grad students.
2 - More undergrads doing the work of grad students.
3 - More adjuncts doing the work of grad students.
4 - Grad students being asked to do more.
The irony is this is happening at the great home of Price Theory!
1 - Less grad students.
2 - More undergrads doing the work of grad students.
3 - More adjuncts doing the work of grad students.
4 - Grad students being asked to do more.
The irony is this is happening at the great home of Price Theory!
Grad students are already the cheapest, and universities are flushed with cash and can't outsource so while they may cut a bit on the numbers mostly they will have to suck it up.
The cost could be offset by administrators not taking a huge cut. Quite literally these administrators do nothing of worth; it's the work of grad students and not-yet-tenured professors that keeps universities rhnning., Not the endless circles of bureaucrats
Will we?
Grad students are major drivers of funding and research for universities. Cutting them will reduce that funding further and make them look worse nationally as an institution.
Perhaps undergraduates SHOULD be welcome to do more of the work? I see no problem with offering cheap workstudies to help grad students and professors getting the little things done while they research and learn.
Adjunct professors might be a good thing-many tenured professors disdain teaching and it shows.
Grad students won't be asked to do more than they agree to because they have a union.
Grad students are major drivers of funding and research for universities. Cutting them will reduce that funding further and make them look worse nationally as an institution.
Perhaps undergraduates SHOULD be welcome to do more of the work? I see no problem with offering cheap workstudies to help grad students and professors getting the little things done while they research and learn.
Adjunct professors might be a good thing-many tenured professors disdain teaching and it shows.
Grad students won't be asked to do more than they agree to because they have a union.
Many won't pay for health insurance, or if they do, it is the health insurance that only gets you access to the student health center, which is basically just a dispenser of tylenol and condoms. Most will waive "tuition" but won't waive "fees" which can still be substantial (10% of your take home pay, in my case). This was at a top-10-for-CS grad program.
That was the case at VCU and every other state school I looked at in VA. Only for Science/Engineering though. All other subjects had very few if any TA/RA positions and a ton of people competing to get them.
About 10 years ago the stipends were around 25-35k/year. Plenty to live off of in Richmond or Charlottesville.
About 10 years ago the stipends were around 25-35k/year. Plenty to live off of in Richmond or Charlottesville.
My masters program offered really affordable health care to students (both undergrad and grad). That was around 2005 though. Not sure if that's still the case.
My experience in my CS MS was that there was ~50% discount on tuition, a subsidized health insurance plan, and not quite enough to live on.
Top tier usesally doesn’t have terminal MS. MS means you didn’t cut it or you want out. In either case they pay you.
I think that's not completely accurate. In physics and math and probably other hard science disciplines, yeah, you are correct, a masters means "thanks but you're not gonna make it to a PhD".
I have a masters in Computer Science from UW-Madison and I had nothing to do with the PhD track. I just wanted more learning and the CS department was happy to provide it. There was no stigma associated with a masters degree there and it's definitely helped me in my career.
I have a masters in Computer Science from UW-Madison and I had nothing to do with the PhD track. I just wanted more learning and the CS department was happy to provide it. There was no stigma associated with a masters degree there and it's definitely helped me in my career.
Unions work out pretty well in retail and hotel trades where there is a mix of high turnover and longish tenure people.
When I worked retail in high school and college, one of my employers was a union shop. It was nice in that there was less abusive and capricious scheduling behavior. I moved up to a level where I saw store P&L and the economics looked to be about the same — but it was more equitable and predictable for the employees.
When I worked retail in high school and college, one of my employers was a union shop. It was nice in that there was less abusive and capricious scheduling behavior. I moved up to a level where I saw store P&L and the economics looked to be about the same — but it was more equitable and predictable for the employees.
I would have concern in that unions are typically great when labor is fungible. If there's a wide spread in individual productive value, unions are not so great. Unionizing is basically capitulation to the ethic that grad student labor is a commodity, which it may already be, but is certainly not the aspiration. If I were a grad student at the uofc I would almost certainly be a strike breaker. Your experiment waits for no one.
There are highly skilled professional unions in Europe, such as for doctors, pilots or engineers.
Before striking, there's working to rule. The experiment can continue, but the extra hours spent grading papers or doing additional tutorials are not worked.
Before striking, there's working to rule. The experiment can continue, but the extra hours spent grading papers or doing additional tutorials are not worked.
Your premise is dubious.
The entertainment industry unions are among the most longstanding and effective and there are no greater spreads in economic value than there are between a novice actor or screenwriter and a global movie star.
The entertainment industry unions are among the most longstanding and effective and there are no greater spreads in economic value than there are between a novice actor or screenwriter and a global movie star.
I think you've made my point for me: the unions in acting basically serve to cement and magnify inequality in the system.
Extending the scope of the union to post-docs and adjuncts may help. You're now talking a decade or so in many fields.
I feel like Masters degrees have become a way for immigrants to get a foot in the door by buying some time to get a H1 job. Citizens in master's programs that I've seen usually just end up there by tacking on a bit of extra time to their undergrad tenure.
> Grad students essentially work as slaves for the Uni's & professors ...
The typical cost to a professor's budget of employing a graduate student with tuition covered and a basic stipend is somewhere in the range of $50k to $150k. The graduate student gets paid to be trained by a domain expert, and the cost to the "employer" is well above the median income. Outside the rather unorthodox software field, graduate degrees typically result in title advances and higher salaries (this is 100% true in government positions).
Calling this arrangement slavery is ridiculous.
Bias disclosure: I was once a professor, and also once a graduate student.
The typical cost to a professor's budget of employing a graduate student with tuition covered and a basic stipend is somewhere in the range of $50k to $150k. The graduate student gets paid to be trained by a domain expert, and the cost to the "employer" is well above the median income. Outside the rather unorthodox software field, graduate degrees typically result in title advances and higher salaries (this is 100% true in government positions).
Calling this arrangement slavery is ridiculous.
Bias disclosure: I was once a professor, and also once a graduate student.
The tuition part is a little bit shady.
I took some great classes as a grad student, but the NIH also paid my university a lot for "Disseration Research in Progress" courses, which met 0 times a week for 0 hours, and certainly did not cost the university much to organize....
I took some great classes as a grad student, but the NIH also paid my university a lot for "Disseration Research in Progress" courses, which met 0 times a week for 0 hours, and certainly did not cost the university much to organize....
It's how your research advisor's salary gets paid.
No, it's not. That money definitely did not go directly to him or his salary.
My research advisor--like most faculty at med schools--was in a soft money position. His salary was--or at least was supposed to be--covered by the grants he brought in and the 68%ish overhead on those grants.
My research advisor--like most faculty at med schools--was in a soft money position. His salary was--or at least was supposed to be--covered by the grants he brought in and the 68%ish overhead on those grants.
To be precise: Overhead does not pay salary. Overhead is only for a subset of indirect costs associated with the project as a whole (e.g., it takes place in a building, with staff and janitors and lights). PI salary must be specified as a direct cost on awards.
Second, there's theory, and there's reality. The reality of funding, even for soft-money faculty, is that schools tend to be (recognizing that not all fit the mold) a little bit flexible about how they calculate these things. Money comes in, salaries get paid, and the bean-counting happens at a slightly more fuzzy level of abstraction. The exact requirements on soft-money funding are typically negotiable, and in many cases, can be pooled across multiple researchers to create a bit of a backstop in the event of temporary funding drops. The tuition fees that your advisor's grants brought in will usually be split between the university and the departments in various (ungodly annoyingly complicated) ways, but it's fairly common that the department -- who pays the salary -- sees some fraction of indirect benefit from grad student tuition paid.
So I agree with your statement as phrased: "directly to him or his salary", but there's a ton of indirect money flow in universities.
(Source: I've had the ... mis? fortune of serving on some of the finance committees in the past, and discuss this issue regularly with colleagues at other universities, including those at medical schools.)
But as a non-me source, here's Wisconsin's definition: https://www.education.wisc.edu/soe/about/leadership/committe...
"Other types of soft money may include generated program revenues and flexible internal monies such as those funding credit outreach timetable courses." -- your tuition was generated program revenue.
Second, there's theory, and there's reality. The reality of funding, even for soft-money faculty, is that schools tend to be (recognizing that not all fit the mold) a little bit flexible about how they calculate these things. Money comes in, salaries get paid, and the bean-counting happens at a slightly more fuzzy level of abstraction. The exact requirements on soft-money funding are typically negotiable, and in many cases, can be pooled across multiple researchers to create a bit of a backstop in the event of temporary funding drops. The tuition fees that your advisor's grants brought in will usually be split between the university and the departments in various (ungodly annoyingly complicated) ways, but it's fairly common that the department -- who pays the salary -- sees some fraction of indirect benefit from grad student tuition paid.
So I agree with your statement as phrased: "directly to him or his salary", but there's a ton of indirect money flow in universities.
(Source: I've had the ... mis? fortune of serving on some of the finance committees in the past, and discuss this issue regularly with colleagues at other universities, including those at medical schools.)
But as a non-me source, here's Wisconsin's definition: https://www.education.wisc.edu/soe/about/leadership/committe...
"Other types of soft money may include generated program revenues and flexible internal monies such as those funding credit outreach timetable courses." -- your tuition was generated program revenue.
Fully-loaded costs is typically on the order of 2x income in cases I'm familiar with. The working hours for grad students are extensive. And yes, that's accounting for the education.
Even allowing for some slack, I'd suggest that a grad student is seeing a pre-tax equivalent of $25k - $100k, and probably skewed to the lower end of that, based on your numbers.
Given that the educational (and academic publishing) systems exist as gateways into a highly-limited cabal, the arrangement cannot reasonably be called free-market.
I'm in favour of unionisation.
Even allowing for some slack, I'd suggest that a grad student is seeing a pre-tax equivalent of $25k - $100k, and probably skewed to the lower end of that, based on your numbers.
Given that the educational (and academic publishing) systems exist as gateways into a highly-limited cabal, the arrangement cannot reasonably be called free-market.
I'm in favour of unionisation.
No one anywhere else gets to count hours being educated as hours worked, so that isn't a fair comparison. Also, if you were to pay for the degree out of pocket, then you are looking at something in the realm of $40-50k / year. That would be $60-75k / year pre-tax. Add a stipend onto that that provides basic necessities of room, board, insurance, and money for necessities like clothes, and you easily reach into the realm of $100k total compensation for someone in this field.
There is a lot of work to be done, but there are many people who work 80 hrs/week to be paid < $100k / year.
I'd love to see the numbers on what the all in dollar value of benefits provided to the students is, as I think that would shift the opinion of quite a few people here.
There is a lot of work to be done, but there are many people who work 80 hrs/week to be paid < $100k / year.
I'd love to see the numbers on what the all in dollar value of benefits provided to the students is, as I think that would shift the opinion of quite a few people here.
> No one anywhere else gets to count hours being educated as hours worked
Work experience is education. That's why you get paid more for past experience - it saves the company on a cost they would otherwise have invested in you. Doing a PhD is just another way of getting work experience, except you get paid a lot less.
I think it's reasonable to claim that PhD's are compensated a lot by virtue of the "cost" of educating them and other benefits. But this education is something you receive in a normal job too. And just like in a normal job, the employer gains a lot more out of the exchange. Grad students are typically worth a lot more to universities than they cost, otherwise there would be no sense in admitting so many. I'd wager the ratio of value to cost is perhaps greater in academia than it is in a lot of other industries.
Work experience is education. That's why you get paid more for past experience - it saves the company on a cost they would otherwise have invested in you. Doing a PhD is just another way of getting work experience, except you get paid a lot less.
I think it's reasonable to claim that PhD's are compensated a lot by virtue of the "cost" of educating them and other benefits. But this education is something you receive in a normal job too. And just like in a normal job, the employer gains a lot more out of the exchange. Grad students are typically worth a lot more to universities than they cost, otherwise there would be no sense in admitting so many. I'd wager the ratio of value to cost is perhaps greater in academia than it is in a lot of other industries.
Comparing cost to the employer against the median income is nonsensical. At least try and estimate "median cost to an employer".
There's slack, sure. But "nonsensical" is obviously false -- the two must be correlated else profit margins would be detached from labor costs, which we know is false at a macro level.
Do you think there could possibly be enough slack to justify calling this arrangement "slavery", which was the crux of my point?
Do you think there could possibly be enough slack to justify calling this arrangement "slavery", which was the crux of my point?
Yes, they're correlated. If that's the only understanding you have of the relationship, would you agree with my assertion that the cost of employing a grad student is about 10% of the median cost of an employee?
I think we're off on the wrong foot here. I agree with you that median cost to the employer and median income are not exactly the same thing. I asked if you thought that changed the substance of my argument, and you didn't reply.
I assume your 10% figure here is purely rhetorical, since per my estimate and sibling comment's the cost of employing a graduate student is at least $50k. So your 10% estimate would imply the median cost of an employee is $500k, which is obviously not true.
I don't want to drive this further into nitpicking so I will conclude this exchange by conceding, again, that median income and median cost to employer are not the same thing. Have a good day.
I assume your 10% figure here is purely rhetorical, since per my estimate and sibling comment's the cost of employing a graduate student is at least $50k. So your 10% estimate would imply the median cost of an employee is $500k, which is obviously not true.
I don't want to drive this further into nitpicking so I will conclude this exchange by conceding, again, that median income and median cost to employer are not the same thing. Have a good day.
I think your argument was a bad one which you attempted to shore up with an irrelevant and misleading rhetorical sleight of hand, comparing money grad students don't get to money other people do get and implying that because it was a high number that made them well off.
Usually a professor gets a grant with money specifically allocated for paying grad students. It's not like there's an opportunity cost involved since there's nowhere else that money can go.
A graduate who spent the 6 years getting experience in industry instead of doing their PhD can expect to be at a similar salary level as the person being hired out of the PhD. They also earned more through those 6 years and so they are on average better off overall.
A graduate who spent the 6 years getting experience in industry instead of doing their PhD can expect to be at a similar salary level as the person being hired out of the PhD. They also earned more through those 6 years and so they are on average better off overall.
Out of curiosity, I looked up a recent grant of mine and you're spot on. Costs me about $65K a year to support a grad student on a grant.
If it really were slavery, there wouldnt be grad students doing this work. It is a preposterous argument to say the students are not getting a deal they want.
The question is , however, if they can get more.
The question is , however, if they can get more.
The problems you mentioned still exist at universities where grad students are unionized.
Some fairly large university systems have had grad student unions for a long time, including the University of California, so I don't think it's a matter of waiting for a critical mass of unionized universities to develop before change can be made.
I think the root cause is one that you mentioned in your post: "there are now a "glut" of PhD's that are far outpacing the very limited # of academic positions". As long as that is the case, academic labor will be cheap and easy to replace, and there will always be enough students willing to work in the conditions you mentioned for professors who could help them in their careers.
Some fairly large university systems have had grad student unions for a long time, including the University of California, so I don't think it's a matter of waiting for a critical mass of unionized universities to develop before change can be made.
I think the root cause is one that you mentioned in your post: "there are now a "glut" of PhD's that are far outpacing the very limited # of academic positions". As long as that is the case, academic labor will be cheap and easy to replace, and there will always be enough students willing to work in the conditions you mentioned for professors who could help them in their careers.
Indeed, in some places things get really odd because there are several different "types" of graduate student, and unions don't necessarily manage to negotiate equally advantageous contracts for all of them.
This is correct. At Berkeley the GSIs are unionized at the GSRs are not. As recently as two years ago they tried to organise the GSRs and as far as I know it was voted down. GSRships tend to skew towards STEM and there seems to be little interest among the GSRs themselves in worker protections. Most of them arrive knowing they're there to work their asses off for little pay in return for a better life down the road. It's a very different mentality than in the humanities.
It's not the mentality per se; the conditions are very different in humanities versus STEM.
For humanities students, the department or division makes a lot of decisions that affect grad students, including the assignment of TA and RA positions, providing funding for conferences and other travel (e.g., to archives). Issues like fairly distributing TAships and keeping class sizes reasonable are things that a union could address. Their advisors were literally....advisors; some of my friends met with their advisor monthly or even less and their research was usually related to--but not an integral part of--their advisors' work.
In contrast, science PhD students (especially in biomedical fields) usually work for ONE professor and their work is usually a piece of that prof's overarching research plan. The prof (through grants) usually provides funds for salaries and research-related expenses, rather than the department. The department has very little effect on their lives; bad interactions with their advisor are the main source of misery. It's less clear to me how unions could solve this. They could prevent students from being dismissed for not working insane hours, but they can't force advisors to actually help students do and publish experiments, write them useful letters of recommendation, or things like that.
For humanities students, the department or division makes a lot of decisions that affect grad students, including the assignment of TA and RA positions, providing funding for conferences and other travel (e.g., to archives). Issues like fairly distributing TAships and keeping class sizes reasonable are things that a union could address. Their advisors were literally....advisors; some of my friends met with their advisor monthly or even less and their research was usually related to--but not an integral part of--their advisors' work.
In contrast, science PhD students (especially in biomedical fields) usually work for ONE professor and their work is usually a piece of that prof's overarching research plan. The prof (through grants) usually provides funds for salaries and research-related expenses, rather than the department. The department has very little effect on their lives; bad interactions with their advisor are the main source of misery. It's less clear to me how unions could solve this. They could prevent students from being dismissed for not working insane hours, but they can't force advisors to actually help students do and publish experiments, write them useful letters of recommendation, or things like that.
> there are now a "glut" of PhD's that are far outpacing the very limited # of academic positions.
Professors have very little incentive to practice academic `birth control`.
Professors have very little incentive to practice academic `birth control`.
They have a strong perverse incentive to glut the PhD market since their control of grads then becomes nearly absolute - the graduate students' futures depend on their profs letters of recommendation. Not just wage slavery but "Weinberg benefits" and "pump and dump" (steal the graduate students ideas and then kill their careers and publish those ideas) results. One helluvan incentive.
With such a power disparity, I wonder how long before the stories of professors sexually abusing their positions start coming out. The situation sounds like a breeding ground for that sort of exploitation.
Follow female scientists on Twitter for like, a week. It'll be an eye opening experience.
I will echo what has been said earlier- "start?"
http://academiaiskillingmyfriends.tumblr.com/
http://academiaiskillingmyfriends.tumblr.com/
I often wonder whether a much older professor sleeping with a much younger student (with consent; both adults obviously) is always a case of attraction based on intelligence and maturity as is often portrayed - esp. in books and films? e.g., One I watched recently - Pelican Brief. Just a random example really but my curiosity is broader in the sense that I want to know from people’s experiences - what they have seen around them.
My example seems to make my question sound like having fixed gender roles in this context - it kind of is so. I mean I rarely come across examples of such relationships with reversed gender roles. In fact when it’s an older female faculty member and a younger male pupil it’s often portrayed as, directly or subtly, something perverse or an abuse of some sort and isn’t shown to be as open and accepted as its counterpart (my example). Maybe the historical patriarchy or so?
Anyway, this has always intrigued me. Partially because where I am from this is rarely heard of and is a not at all socially accepted. In fact it was a taboo till very recently (maybe it still is), where as in the west it seems to be at least socially accepted (I am not sure how the reaction is at much smaller like concerned families level) and very common (unless I read it wrong from the films).
(typed on mobile)
My example seems to make my question sound like having fixed gender roles in this context - it kind of is so. I mean I rarely come across examples of such relationships with reversed gender roles. In fact when it’s an older female faculty member and a younger male pupil it’s often portrayed as, directly or subtly, something perverse or an abuse of some sort and isn’t shown to be as open and accepted as its counterpart (my example). Maybe the historical patriarchy or so?
Anyway, this has always intrigued me. Partially because where I am from this is rarely heard of and is a not at all socially accepted. In fact it was a taboo till very recently (maybe it still is), where as in the west it seems to be at least socially accepted (I am not sure how the reaction is at much smaller like concerned families level) and very common (unless I read it wrong from the films).
(typed on mobile)
>I mean I rarely come across examples of such relationships with reversed gender roles. In fact when it’s an older female faculty member and a younger male pupil it’s often portrayed as, directly or subtly, something perverse or an abuse of some sort and isn’t shown to be as open and accepted as its counterpart (my example).
The current President of France met and fell in love with his wife when she was his teacher.
The current President of France met and fell in love with his wife when she was his teacher.
True. But in popular culture it's not depicted in the same proportion at all. Right? How is it in reality there, comparatively?
PS. Why the down-votes?
I am not asking directly to @logicchains (I can't edit that comment now so adding it here). I am really perplexed. I was not trolling or being offensive (hope I didn't turn out to be so) and it is one of the aspects of western culture I don't understand and tried to understand it from the people who live there or have been there since I noticed a comment on the same lines (or perceived so). Also I assumed there would be lots of (ex) grad students here. I was thinking is there intimidation, misleading, fear of losing career chances involved in such relationships (and a whole lot of things)?
I have noticed this quite a few times. Comment down-voted that were neither offensive, nor unconstructive (I would like to know if mine was either of these or something else and learn from my mistakes).
I have recently got the ability to down-vote (seeing the up and down arrows both) and I hardly down-vote (on other forums too I've the same habit). Am I doing it wrong? The saying that "don't down-vote just because you disagree or don't like something" is just for saying and in practice we should just down-vote based on whims and likes? Or is there a methodology to it?
PS. Why the down-votes?
I am not asking directly to @logicchains (I can't edit that comment now so adding it here). I am really perplexed. I was not trolling or being offensive (hope I didn't turn out to be so) and it is one of the aspects of western culture I don't understand and tried to understand it from the people who live there or have been there since I noticed a comment on the same lines (or perceived so). Also I assumed there would be lots of (ex) grad students here. I was thinking is there intimidation, misleading, fear of losing career chances involved in such relationships (and a whole lot of things)?
I have noticed this quite a few times. Comment down-voted that were neither offensive, nor unconstructive (I would like to know if mine was either of these or something else and learn from my mistakes).
I have recently got the ability to down-vote (seeing the up and down arrows both) and I hardly down-vote (on other forums too I've the same habit). Am I doing it wrong? The saying that "don't down-vote just because you disagree or don't like something" is just for saying and in practice we should just down-vote based on whims and likes? Or is there a methodology to it?
> The current President of France met and fell in love with his wife when she was his teacher.
Conincidentally, she also has a very rich father.
Conincidentally, she also has a very rich father.
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I'm not going to do the search, but there are already quite a few stories of that.
"start"? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/24/sexual-harassm... andhttp://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/03/23/top-uc-berkeley-... are recent stories from one college alone.
Ooops. That should be "Weinstein benefits", of course.
Little incentive, but some of us try to as good stewards of the field.
It's baffling to me that academia, which is predominantly progressive, would treat its workers so poorly.
Camouflage. I well remember a real Chinese Marxist dropped into a supposedly Marxist-dominated academic department here a few decades ago who was astounded. How they could reconcile all being wine collectors and snobs with their trumpeted socialist views he asked me? The answer is that their progressive views masked very regressive and antisocial behavior in general, and that was quite purposeful.
Marxism as an analysis technique and as a political philosophy are totally different. This is not surprising.
Please cite something or elaborate. This is a fair statement, but it's hardly an excuse in this context. I think you are stretching the meaning here. Marxism is not an ambiguous term.
Academic Marxism - or "Marxist Critique" - is really better referred to as dialectical materialism, historical materialism, or even more generally as Hegelian dialectics.
The political philosophies, namely socialism and communism, are a product of such thinking, but are not the same.
For instance, many feminists make heavy use of dialectics and are considered Marxist critique, but may not identify with e.g. communism.
The political philosophies, namely socialism and communism, are a product of such thinking, but are not the same.
For instance, many feminists make heavy use of dialectics and are considered Marxist critique, but may not identify with e.g. communism.
Marx was first and foremost an analyst of class in history, and capitalism. That's Marxist analysis, which can be largely divorced from specific communist implications.
That makes sense. I question assuming that self-identified "marxists" are merely analysts of class and capitalism.
These things are necessarily correlated and I'm not sure the necessity of drawing the line. Why not just use another term?
It seems to me we are making a rhetorical space for bourjois marxists. Why?
These things are necessarily correlated and I'm not sure the necessity of drawing the line. Why not just use another term?
It seems to me we are making a rhetorical space for bourjois marxists. Why?
> It seems to me we are making a rhetorical space for bourjois marxists. Why?
??? Academically they're interesting questions to ask? Have you ever taken a class on Marxist critical theory or Marxist feminism or ...
A "marxist" is someone who uses Marx's method of analyzing class and capitalism to talk about whatever they want. One specific example is a Marxist critical theorist I know who likes to discuss the way class and capitalism as Marx discussed them arise in philosophical interpretations of modern literature.
Marxism is a political philosophy - one that has a lot of negative connotation in the United States due to its ties to communism, but Marxism is just philosophy so of course we'd want a space where academics can talk philosophy.
See this comment for a better explanation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15512846
??? Academically they're interesting questions to ask? Have you ever taken a class on Marxist critical theory or Marxist feminism or ...
A "marxist" is someone who uses Marx's method of analyzing class and capitalism to talk about whatever they want. One specific example is a Marxist critical theorist I know who likes to discuss the way class and capitalism as Marx discussed them arise in philosophical interpretations of modern literature.
Marxism is a political philosophy - one that has a lot of negative connotation in the United States due to its ties to communism, but Marxism is just philosophy so of course we'd want a space where academics can talk philosophy.
See this comment for a better explanation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15512846
I think you're explaining yourself clearly, and of I know this is a common way of treating marxism in academia. I know you were taught it this way, as was I. But, I think it is suspicious nonetheless. Reading Marx makes me wonder why we arrived at objectifying and extermalizing his work like this. If we are thinking of Marx's work and his 'philosophy', we are critiquing class and capitalism. If we are critiquing class and capitalism, we are foolish to think our critiques are only worthy when applied to others. Of course, this point could hardly be more apparent than in the faculty's current predicaments. Marxist theory would have illuminated the trajectory many years ago had they the wits to apply the thought to their own situation. I don't feel very sorry for them myself. I've got my student loans to pay off and my university faculty members could never seem to care much less. When I was in school, talking about my student loan problems was looked down on as 'showing my class.'
> Marxist theory would have illuminated the trajectory many years ago had they the wits to apply the thought to their own situation.
Faculty members are not in control of their own situation. I'm sorry to sound a bit rude here, but you're being a bit oblivious. Faculty are under the rule of law of the administration. That is who their boss is and that is whose rules they follow. They don't get to choose the class hierarchy and power dynamics of their job same as you or I. If it were that easy to disrupt a power imbalance, then Marxism would be a lot more than just a theoretical framework. More importantly, academics are the very definition of the type of people who "get their head stuck in the clouds". They care about their work at the expense of every other aspect of their lives, expecting them to apply the same critical lens to their lives (which they are likely somewhat comfortable in) is very naive. Even Marx goes out of his way to emphasize that the means of production must be "seized" - there has to be great motivation to change the power dynamic. For professors, it can be hard to get them to care about anything that doesn't directly affect their research.
> When I was in school, talking about my student loan problems was looked down on as 'showing my class.'
The faculty have no control over your student loans. They are not the ones who charge you. And in my own experience, my professors were very enthusiastic about me talking about my issues with student loan debt. Are you sure it wasn't just in the wrong class / awkward timing? I brought this stuff up in a course on class dynamics and got plenty of positive feedback - where you say something is just as important as what you say after all.
You should redirect some of your frustration at the University's administration. Professors and faculty are getting screwed in a lot of the same ways as you, so why do you choose to get upset at them and their talk about "Marxism". They're academics whose heads are up in the clouds, what do you expect?
Faculty members are not in control of their own situation. I'm sorry to sound a bit rude here, but you're being a bit oblivious. Faculty are under the rule of law of the administration. That is who their boss is and that is whose rules they follow. They don't get to choose the class hierarchy and power dynamics of their job same as you or I. If it were that easy to disrupt a power imbalance, then Marxism would be a lot more than just a theoretical framework. More importantly, academics are the very definition of the type of people who "get their head stuck in the clouds". They care about their work at the expense of every other aspect of their lives, expecting them to apply the same critical lens to their lives (which they are likely somewhat comfortable in) is very naive. Even Marx goes out of his way to emphasize that the means of production must be "seized" - there has to be great motivation to change the power dynamic. For professors, it can be hard to get them to care about anything that doesn't directly affect their research.
> When I was in school, talking about my student loan problems was looked down on as 'showing my class.'
The faculty have no control over your student loans. They are not the ones who charge you. And in my own experience, my professors were very enthusiastic about me talking about my issues with student loan debt. Are you sure it wasn't just in the wrong class / awkward timing? I brought this stuff up in a course on class dynamics and got plenty of positive feedback - where you say something is just as important as what you say after all.
You should redirect some of your frustration at the University's administration. Professors and faculty are getting screwed in a lot of the same ways as you, so why do you choose to get upset at them and their talk about "Marxism". They're academics whose heads are up in the clouds, what do you expect?
>Faculty members are not in control of their own situation.
Yes, they are. They are in so much as a police officer. They too, can leave their positions any time they please. They can discuss and protest, by all means. Teaching and research can and might should be done elsewhere.
The growth of administration is dispicable but not authoritarian. I will argue the administration bloat is of the same sensibilities as the oversocialized culture of academic careerism. I say with much disappointment 'Flush them both!'
We would be insulting to conclude hypocrisy excusable because of a little "head in the clouds." I will defend with you the value of submersion, of passion and obsessiveness to inspire study and discovery. Anecdotally, I find this freedom abounds more outside of academia than within.
Nonetheless, I understand your reasoning; more generously in some disciplines than others. Political theorists may visit "the clouds" but if they hang out too long, they would be oblivious to the very specimin of their research!
I am young and cannot claim to have known these mythical "genuine marxists" who amandoned Academia some decades back, but conceptually they are relatable. I would have liked a shot at an academic career but lacked the quite obvious requirements: monetary entry fee, cultural decoration, marketing/social skills.
My work has involved many ties with Academia and I've even been published in some academic journals. I want to believe, but I just find Academia and its' self-obsessive traditions, processes, and increasingly oversocialized culture to be terribly distracting. The necessity of these things is a worthwhile debate, but with so many bright minds enmeshed, anything less than greatness would be near impossible. But, my observations and personal experiences suggest that the "clouds" in which the academics' tend to place their heads are so rarely a result of curiosity and exploration as you imply. They often more resemble a narrow path down which they will chase the next carrot.
I understand you to be defending those few who place their research practice above all else. I implore you to question what might be if they were not constrained by this path. Admittedly, I'm not offering any more a solution to this than I am to the problem of pay: Leave the path or speak up/protest. These rhetorical frameworks for distancing sake is a losing proposition, and has become commonplace. These practice of prioritizing the carrot path favors a survival of the shmooziest. This is bad for research, bad for education, bad for faculty, bad for business. We can probably agree the administration does not represent bygone Academia, but I assert instead it is a bureaucratic creep that will feed on academic careerism like a virus. I suggest it is a symptom, not a cause.
Sorry for the length. My battery is soon to die or I would try to edit.
Yes, they are. They are in so much as a police officer. They too, can leave their positions any time they please. They can discuss and protest, by all means. Teaching and research can and might should be done elsewhere.
The growth of administration is dispicable but not authoritarian. I will argue the administration bloat is of the same sensibilities as the oversocialized culture of academic careerism. I say with much disappointment 'Flush them both!'
We would be insulting to conclude hypocrisy excusable because of a little "head in the clouds." I will defend with you the value of submersion, of passion and obsessiveness to inspire study and discovery. Anecdotally, I find this freedom abounds more outside of academia than within.
Nonetheless, I understand your reasoning; more generously in some disciplines than others. Political theorists may visit "the clouds" but if they hang out too long, they would be oblivious to the very specimin of their research!
I am young and cannot claim to have known these mythical "genuine marxists" who amandoned Academia some decades back, but conceptually they are relatable. I would have liked a shot at an academic career but lacked the quite obvious requirements: monetary entry fee, cultural decoration, marketing/social skills.
My work has involved many ties with Academia and I've even been published in some academic journals. I want to believe, but I just find Academia and its' self-obsessive traditions, processes, and increasingly oversocialized culture to be terribly distracting. The necessity of these things is a worthwhile debate, but with so many bright minds enmeshed, anything less than greatness would be near impossible. But, my observations and personal experiences suggest that the "clouds" in which the academics' tend to place their heads are so rarely a result of curiosity and exploration as you imply. They often more resemble a narrow path down which they will chase the next carrot.
I understand you to be defending those few who place their research practice above all else. I implore you to question what might be if they were not constrained by this path. Admittedly, I'm not offering any more a solution to this than I am to the problem of pay: Leave the path or speak up/protest. These rhetorical frameworks for distancing sake is a losing proposition, and has become commonplace. These practice of prioritizing the carrot path favors a survival of the shmooziest. This is bad for research, bad for education, bad for faculty, bad for business. We can probably agree the administration does not represent bygone Academia, but I assert instead it is a bureaucratic creep that will feed on academic careerism like a virus. I suggest it is a symptom, not a cause.
Sorry for the length. My battery is soon to die or I would try to edit.
They didn't make such a distinction - it would have lessened the camouflage.
The elitism is something I've noticed, but espousing socialist views is purposeful to what end?
My best guess is that the behavior is an unconscious projection due to underlying narcissistic tendencies of people who are put on an intellectual pedastal...
I suppose it could be camouflage for being an asshole but that just seems too exhausting to be sustainable. And if they don't genuinely hold those beliefs, then what do they actually believe?
My best guess is that the behavior is an unconscious projection due to underlying narcissistic tendencies of people who are put on an intellectual pedastal...
I suppose it could be camouflage for being an asshole but that just seems too exhausting to be sustainable. And if they don't genuinely hold those beliefs, then what do they actually believe?
I would say that these abuses of power are intrinsic to having power. Also it's usually not the faculty vs the students. If you asked any single faculty member if they would rather
1.) Overwork their students, stretch them thin doing everything.
2.) Have more graduate students.
They would always pick #2. Professors are notoriously short-handed. They are typically not the ones who are outright abusing the power. It's usually the administration tying the professor's hands in these matters.
As a graduate student, your boss is usually the administration more than the professor - especially w.r.t. things a union would care about (workplace safety, wages, benefits, overwork...). Professors do not like to overwork their students - it's just they don't care if you are overworked.
1.) Overwork their students, stretch them thin doing everything.
2.) Have more graduate students.
They would always pick #2. Professors are notoriously short-handed. They are typically not the ones who are outright abusing the power. It's usually the administration tying the professor's hands in these matters.
As a graduate student, your boss is usually the administration more than the professor - especially w.r.t. things a union would care about (workplace safety, wages, benefits, overwork...). Professors do not like to overwork their students - it's just they don't care if you are overworked.
"As a graduate student, your boss is usually the administration more than the professor"
This is important to note. I have very little control over how much my students are paid, their benefits, their course load, etc.
And, for the record, I do care if my students are overworked. Burnt out students produce shitty science.
This is important to note. I have very little control over how much my students are paid, their benefits, their course load, etc.
And, for the record, I do care if my students are overworked. Burnt out students produce shitty science.
> I do care if my students are overworked. Burnt out students produce shitty science.
Good point and apologies for the slight. I suppose a better way of putting it is that faculty are often ignorant of their students' issues / difficulties due to their busy schedules.
Good point and apologies for the slight. I suppose a better way of putting it is that faculty are often ignorant of their students' issues / difficulties due to their busy schedules.
Ever also wonder how it's ethical to put a 19 year old $100,000 into debt for an economically worthless bachelor's degree?
Absolutely. It's predatory lending in many cases. There is a choice on behalf of the students, but they are often completely ignorant about finance and the job market. The K-12 education system is failing to equip young people to understand and deal with the real world, so I see that as a root cause of these problems.
And what's the deal with universities pursuing stupendous multi-billion dollar endowments and never lowering tuition?
It's like a competition between universities to see who can get the biggest war chest. Lacking any market concerns they're just looking for some variable to maximize just to keep themselves occupied. It seems largely orthogonal to any social purpose a university is supposed to have.
It's like a competition between universities to see who can get the biggest war chest. Lacking any market concerns they're just looking for some variable to maximize just to keep themselves occupied. It seems largely orthogonal to any social purpose a university is supposed to have.
Endowments are there to provide "passive income" for the university and not to be spent. One of the main things interest on an endowment funds is financial aid. Endowment size is a pretty decent proxy for how generous a financial aid program is.
Spending down an endowment could provide lots of free tuition... for a few years. Universities (like the Church) think in centuries.
Spending down an endowment could provide lots of free tuition... for a few years. Universities (like the Church) think in centuries.
Pretty much this. Whether or not my alma mater could go to a "need blind" admissions policy was entirely a function of whether or not the endowment was in the right shape.
IIRC they managed it in 2007 and then...in 2008...well, that went away.
IIRC they managed it in 2007 and then...in 2008...well, that went away.
It's probably the same phenomenon like unions who fight for worker rights are often very abusive employers themselves. I have seen this in Germany and in the US.
Is it really any different than the most obstreperously puritanical religious zealots harboring plenty of scandalous sin in their personal life? Whether our ideals have a God at the top or not, we aren't any more or less prone to psychologically projecting our failings.
It should be noted that this is not universal, and varies heavily, down even to what lab you're in within a university.
It treats it's students no better. The student loan crisis is by far the biggest foot in Academia's mouth. Academia's politics don't apply to academia.
Is Academia one entity? Do you consider Adjunct Professors to be part of Academia?
Perhaps ... the system is the result of organizational dynamics and some basic rules that some exploit and others get exploited by.
Perhaps ... the system is the result of organizational dynamics and some basic rules that some exploit and others get exploited by.
Academia is essentially a class of institutions and/or an industry concerned with higher education. Of course adjunct professors would be associated here.
Apparently you are missing the irony in such critical theory, post-structuralism, marxism, etc. having been so vigorously theorized that it's application was overlooked! The "system" here is quite late to blame itself and the brazen approach to doing so is a bit humurous.
Are you seeking to divide academia into smaller parts; innocent ones and guilty others? Where have we seen that before?
Apparently you are missing the irony in such critical theory, post-structuralism, marxism, etc. having been so vigorously theorized that it's application was overlooked! The "system" here is quite late to blame itself and the brazen approach to doing so is a bit humurous.
Are you seeking to divide academia into smaller parts; innocent ones and guilty others? Where have we seen that before?
Adjunct professors are notoriously overworked by the rest of "Academia"... they're like the H1B workers in tech.
Face it, the entire system probably needs an overhaul but isn't governed by some sort of "evil overmind". Small regulatory or incentive-based changes or movements like unionization will probably cause the system to re-adjust.
Face it, the entire system probably needs an overhaul but isn't governed by some sort of "evil overmind". Small regulatory or incentive-based changes or movements like unionization will probably cause the system to re-adjust.
You are misunderstood about my point. I do not assume any authoritarian presence.
I guess it's just textbook components of neo-liberalism: priorities which lead to bloated administration and marketing initiatives.
I agree unionizing is a good solution. One would think the experts would have acted sooner; that's all. The trajectory has been obvious for a very long time.
I guess it's just textbook components of neo-liberalism: priorities which lead to bloated administration and marketing initiatives.
I agree unionizing is a good solution. One would think the experts would have acted sooner; that's all. The trajectory has been obvious for a very long time.
"Les cordonniers sont les plus mal chaussés." - roughly translated: the shoemakers often has the worst shoes.
Your point falls flat when we consider the student loan emabrrassment the professors have (with similar snide elegance) overlooked.
To clarify, the shoemaker's customers in your analogy (the students) have been wearing worse shoes for much longer.
There is a sense that liberal academics assume, which purports that they carry the torch of revolution or something like this. The notion, however, lives only in the academic professorial abstract and fails to materialize outside of it. This torch is an academic torch, not a proletariat torch, not a working class torch. This is a bourjois torch.
To clarify, the shoemaker's customers in your analogy (the students) have been wearing worse shoes for much longer.
There is a sense that liberal academics assume, which purports that they carry the torch of revolution or something like this. The notion, however, lives only in the academic professorial abstract and fails to materialize outside of it. This torch is an academic torch, not a proletariat torch, not a working class torch. This is a bourjois torch.
Academia's politics
Does this refer to political attitudes typically associated with faculty?
academia
And this to decisions made by university administrators?
If so, then no, I don't expect one to apply to the other.
Does this refer to political attitudes typically associated with faculty?
academia
And this to decisions made by university administrators?
If so, then no, I don't expect one to apply to the other.
By Academia's politics I am referring to the faculty'sgeneral leftist views, which I myself widely share.
By academia I mean the whole thing.
The faculty has maintained these these acclaimed leftist views for many decades, sat back and drank Kool-Aid while the administration took on the bloat. They were too busy climbing the ladder and forgot to critique it; no better than than the rest of the average neo-liberals.
Student debt swallowed at least 2 generations whole while the faculty did nothing. They didn't have to. But, they'll be the first to commend a proletariat revolution which remains a safe enough distance from their job. I cannot help notice the hypocrisy here.
By academia I mean the whole thing.
The faculty has maintained these these acclaimed leftist views for many decades, sat back and drank Kool-Aid while the administration took on the bloat. They were too busy climbing the ladder and forgot to critique it; no better than than the rest of the average neo-liberals.
Student debt swallowed at least 2 generations whole while the faculty did nothing. They didn't have to. But, they'll be the first to commend a proletariat revolution which remains a safe enough distance from their job. I cannot help notice the hypocrisy here.
There is some irony in this happening to one of the most anti-union Econ departments out there. :-)
What will this do? Raise the cost of grad students for schools, so perhaps they take less of them. But didn't the students know this was the situation before applying?
What will this do? Raise the cost of grad students for schools, so perhaps they take less of them. But didn't the students know this was the situation before applying?
Not to say that these are not issues, but the treatment of students is also highly field-dependent. In addition, in fields like mathematics (mine), most postdoctoral positions (even very good ones) come with a certain amount of teaching, and students who have not had significant classroom experience sometimes will have difficulty finding good positions.
Also, how much TAing one does really varies a huge amount between fields. AFAIK students do much more teaching in the humanities than in STEM, and within STEM departments that teach lots of service courses (e.g., math) will tend to have more TAships than departments that do not.
Also, how much TAing one does really varies a huge amount between fields. AFAIK students do much more teaching in the humanities than in STEM, and within STEM departments that teach lots of service courses (e.g., math) will tend to have more TAships than departments that do not.
I completely agree with you here. I also wonder what other effects this could have on public higher education. My university was largely funded by the IP created by grad students and other property owned by the university.
Undergraduate student fees were actually paid to the state board of education, the university then got only a fraction of that back. The state provided less than a third of the budget to a state university.
This was actually less than the cost to educate an undergrad and so grad students work was used to subsidize undergrads who in turn subsidized other public schools in the state.
Grad students do deserve fair compensation for their work but if that happens it will exacerbate the problems caused by under funding public education. I hope I see the time when we solve these problems and I think this is a step in that direction.
Undergraduate student fees were actually paid to the state board of education, the university then got only a fraction of that back. The state provided less than a third of the budget to a state university.
This was actually less than the cost to educate an undergrad and so grad students work was used to subsidize undergrads who in turn subsidized other public schools in the state.
Grad students do deserve fair compensation for their work but if that happens it will exacerbate the problems caused by under funding public education. I hope I see the time when we solve these problems and I think this is a step in that direction.
I'm not opposed, but where will the higher wages come from? You make it sound like someone is making a killing off their labor, but I understand universities to be perpetually strapped. These aren't meant to be challenges to your point; I just don't understand university economics.
Universities have vastly expanded the percentage of their budget that goes towards administrative and brand building roles. Redistributing it towards teachers and grad students would be a good start. In addition, public universities could receive greater public funding.
Also sports budgets.
Big budget, popular sports teams typically pay for themselves through ticket sales.
Which does not describe U Chicago...
Uhh, no thanks. The research money should be spent on research, and the student tuition should be spent on students.
That research and undergraduate education are combined together is the real problem here.
That research and undergraduate education are combined together is the real problem here.
There’s a natural connection between the two: you need qualified people to teach students and many of the best students are looking for research experience in labs doing real work. Given what tuition runs these days, any place which doesn’t have those is going to see students passing for other institutions.
The problem isn’t pairing the two but generations of overhead growth combined with a decline in the federal funding which used to support researchers, both of which mean compensation has fallen behind in real value.
The problem isn’t pairing the two but generations of overhead growth combined with a decline in the federal funding which used to support researchers, both of which mean compensation has fallen behind in real value.
Researchers are extremely unqualified to be teachers. That's because researchers are good at researching.
And this skill has very little overlap with teaching undergraduate students.
And on the other end, a fairly small percentage of students end up doing any research in college.
In an ideal world, researchers would research, and people who specialize in teaching would teach.
You do NOT have to be some cutting edge leader in your field to teach undergrads. Simple skills, like being an engaged and interesting speaking are way way way more important than how many papers you've published.
And this skill has very little overlap with teaching undergraduate students.
And on the other end, a fairly small percentage of students end up doing any research in college.
In an ideal world, researchers would research, and people who specialize in teaching would teach.
You do NOT have to be some cutting edge leader in your field to teach undergrads. Simple skills, like being an engaged and interesting speaking are way way way more important than how many papers you've published.
In my opinion and experience, the process of teaching itself makes you a much better researcher. People can get bored doing research, epecially if it is primarily solo research. Plus, teaching forces you to learn a subject much more thoroughly than you would otherwise. And if you want to expand your research to a slightly different topic, teaching that topic can give you a lot of knowledge and confidence in that topic. I feel like teaching+research institutions do better research than pure research institutions.
One of my best teachers was a hard core researcher.
Some of my worst teachers were teaching specialists.
And the most influential person in my undergraduate career? A researcher.
Some of my worst teachers were teaching specialists.
And the most influential person in my undergraduate career? A researcher.
There are always exceptions, of course.
My point is the research and teaching are orthogonal skills.
It is certainly possible for someone to be both a good researcher and a good teacher.
I am just saying that I don't care how good of a researcher they are. The only thing I care about is how good of a teacher they are.
So let's judge the teachers based SOLELY on their teaching skills, and not have writing papers have anything at all to do with whether they are hired as a teacher.
My point is the research and teaching are orthogonal skills.
It is certainly possible for someone to be both a good researcher and a good teacher.
I am just saying that I don't care how good of a researcher they are. The only thing I care about is how good of a teacher they are.
So let's judge the teachers based SOLELY on their teaching skills, and not have writing papers have anything at all to do with whether they are hired as a teacher.
I started my research career as part of my undergraduate education.
The wages will never be high. Thats just the nature of the job. But unions can fight for things like working conditions for TAs and helping students deal with abusive advisers. Students are strongly incentive not to bring complaints against professors since they hold all the power over potential career advancement. Unions could help here too.
Really more than students unionizing its adjunct faculty that are being severely exploited. Whereas PhDs at least get a degree for their troubles, adjuncts just get straight up robbed, and too many of them are living on public assistance and non-guaranteed contracts.
Really more than students unionizing its adjunct faculty that are being severely exploited. Whereas PhDs at least get a degree for their troubles, adjuncts just get straight up robbed, and too many of them are living on public assistance and non-guaranteed contracts.
"...and helping students deal with abusive advisers."
This is one thing I hope the unionization movement will genuinely change. There's not much room to move the needle on pay, but having students have a means of addressing abuse besides "Throw myself on the mercy of the department and hope they don't shred my career" would be a huge step.
Interestingly, one of the grad student union's arguments in a place I was at was, essentially, "You're flooding the university with cheap adjuncts, and it's devaluing our career path", which I thought was, at the very least, an interesting take.
This is one thing I hope the unionization movement will genuinely change. There's not much room to move the needle on pay, but having students have a means of addressing abuse besides "Throw myself on the mercy of the department and hope they don't shred my career" would be a huge step.
Interestingly, one of the grad student union's arguments in a place I was at was, essentially, "You're flooding the university with cheap adjuncts, and it's devaluing our career path", which I thought was, at the very least, an interesting take.
There's actually a lot of room to move the needle on pay even. I know a CS department that is giving it's grad student a >$5000 yearly raise from $25K because it's grad student union (unofficial) found out that CS students are getting much worse pay compared to the other engineering grad students. 5000 is a lot of money for grad students.
Agreed. It's about balancing the power dynamic, not the wages.
ICOs. The time to invest in UCoin is now!
"BaronVonSteuben"? Are you some sort of Utican?
> and an average of $100k (1) in debt
First, the USNews article you cite says the average is $57k. The $100k number is the 75th percentile number.
Second, the article you cite is pretty freely mixing "graduate students" and "graduate and professional degrees", to the extent that it's not clear whether the average numbers it cites are just for the former, or for the latter. It obviously makes a big difference, because while law school and medical school have their own problems they don't have the (very real) problems you describe PhD programs as having.
So I looked at the actual report your linked article is citing. The $57k number is the _median_ (not average!) debt across all graduate and professional students. Same for the $100k number: 75th percentile across all graduate and professional students. See page 1 of the report.
Page 3 of the report cites some "typical" (I assume they mean "median", but they don't define it) numbers for various graduate degree debts, including law and medicine, but conveniently leaves out the number for "PhDs". Those make up about 23% of all graduate degrees, according to the chart on that page, by the way, so your typical "graduate or professional student" is not a PhD candidate, but is aiming for an MD, JD, or Master's degree, all of which have _quite_ different funding models from PhDs.
All the tables on page 12 and following conveniently exclude PhDs as well.
So this report tells us pretty much nothing about PhD debt. The law and medicine numbers inflate everything involved, obviously, and most of the rest are masters degrees of various sorts. All PhDs could have a debt of 0 and still get the reported median and 75th percentile numbers.
OK, so how this works in practice (or at least did 10 years ago) at the universtity of Chicago, while I wad doing my PhD there.... Grad students in the _sciences_ generally did not take on debt at all: their tuition was covered, and they were paid a stipend that was enough to live on reasonably, in return for the teaching and whatnot that they did. Grad students in the _humanities_ were an entirely different story. So even within the PhD bucket it really depended on the field of study. The number of students who took on debt and had "lab time" of any sort was quite close to 0, if not exactly 0.
Now there are real problems in PhD programs, including in the sciences, and grad students and especially postdocs _are_ underpaid in various ways. But you're not having science PhDs with $100k in grad school debt, typically.
First, the USNews article you cite says the average is $57k. The $100k number is the 75th percentile number.
Second, the article you cite is pretty freely mixing "graduate students" and "graduate and professional degrees", to the extent that it's not clear whether the average numbers it cites are just for the former, or for the latter. It obviously makes a big difference, because while law school and medical school have their own problems they don't have the (very real) problems you describe PhD programs as having.
So I looked at the actual report your linked article is citing. The $57k number is the _median_ (not average!) debt across all graduate and professional students. Same for the $100k number: 75th percentile across all graduate and professional students. See page 1 of the report.
Page 3 of the report cites some "typical" (I assume they mean "median", but they don't define it) numbers for various graduate degree debts, including law and medicine, but conveniently leaves out the number for "PhDs". Those make up about 23% of all graduate degrees, according to the chart on that page, by the way, so your typical "graduate or professional student" is not a PhD candidate, but is aiming for an MD, JD, or Master's degree, all of which have _quite_ different funding models from PhDs.
All the tables on page 12 and following conveniently exclude PhDs as well.
So this report tells us pretty much nothing about PhD debt. The law and medicine numbers inflate everything involved, obviously, and most of the rest are masters degrees of various sorts. All PhDs could have a debt of 0 and still get the reported median and 75th percentile numbers.
OK, so how this works in practice (or at least did 10 years ago) at the universtity of Chicago, while I wad doing my PhD there.... Grad students in the _sciences_ generally did not take on debt at all: their tuition was covered, and they were paid a stipend that was enough to live on reasonably, in return for the teaching and whatnot that they did. Grad students in the _humanities_ were an entirely different story. So even within the PhD bucket it really depended on the field of study. The number of students who took on debt and had "lab time" of any sort was quite close to 0, if not exactly 0.
Now there are real problems in PhD programs, including in the sciences, and grad students and especially postdocs _are_ underpaid in various ways. But you're not having science PhDs with $100k in grad school debt, typically.
Why will unionization solve the glut of PhDs? If there are already too many grad students when conditions are miserable, why will improving the conditions reduce the supply?
Grad students are not supply-limited. UChicago--and many of the other places flirting with unionization--are never going to have to worry about finding enough grad students.
Improving conditions might let them recruit better grad students, which has obvious knock-on effects for the university, even if they retain fewer of them. In general, it is not the case that one researcher yields one interchangeable unit of knowledge. We might be better off (in terms of happiness and productivity) with N calmly productive researchers than 2N miserable researchers desperately flinging stuff at the walls.
Improving conditions might let them recruit better grad students, which has obvious knock-on effects for the university, even if they retain fewer of them. In general, it is not the case that one researcher yields one interchangeable unit of knowledge. We might be better off (in terms of happiness and productivity) with N calmly productive researchers than 2N miserable researchers desperately flinging stuff at the walls.
The solution is less people becoming PHDs.
Unions, and the like, just move around the real problem, which is that we have too many people in academia, and that those people should move to industry.
Unions, and the like, just move around the real problem, which is that we have too many people in academia, and that those people should move to industry.
Bingo! It’s free country — you don’t like to be in academia, go somewhere else!
It is also a free market — you get paid how much you are worth.
Disclaimer: dropped out of PhD program many many years ago for this and other reasons. Don’t regret it for a second.
It is also a free market — you get paid how much you are worth.
Disclaimer: dropped out of PhD program many many years ago for this and other reasons. Don’t regret it for a second.
I don't regret leaving either.
I do wish that 24-year-old me had either enough wisdom (or perhaps, say, an ethical advisor) to skip getting into massive debt.
I don't agree that folks get paid what they are worth, but that's probably a deeper disagreement than warrants discussion on this forum.
I do wish that 24-year-old me had either enough wisdom (or perhaps, say, an ethical advisor) to skip getting into massive debt.
I don't agree that folks get paid what they are worth, but that's probably a deeper disagreement than warrants discussion on this forum.
Going in to academia is always on my mind because I would love to be on the cutting edge of research, but I can never justify leaving my job to work twice as hard and get paid 4x less.
It's a shame that you need to be rich to continue your education past a point, but it just doesn't make sense to keep going.
It's a shame that you need to be rich to continue your education past a point, but it just doesn't make sense to keep going.
Industry left to China: https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i41/Chinese-chemistry-PhD-gr...
The only thing that the US is producing these days is student debt.
The only thing that the US is producing these days is student debt.
if they are saying they are employees, not students, then international students should have to get the appropriate visas, and should not be here on a student visa.
* by-line
* rite of passage
well it likely is too late to matter, with the ever connected world people will get their education from anywhere for the best price.
the end result is the many US colleges will have to reign in costs and this could put a lot of pressure on all positions.
the end result is the many US colleges will have to reign in costs and this could put a lot of pressure on all positions.
I'm excited about this. I had the advantage of working full-time while in grad school, and my company paid for most of it, but I missed out on being a TA and getting classroom experience.
I watched a lot of fellow grad students struggle, constantly worrying about grants and funding. Some just took loans, others rushing so they could get through before their fellowships ended.
Meanwhile you watch new buildings, dorms and student centers go up as undergrad tuition goes up. Most professors I know who are my age are all adjunct or part time, but it's their full time gig.
Adjuncts positions were meant for professionals in the field who wanted to teach a class or two. The position is really being abused to keep from paying hard working professors a full-time wage and keeping them from a tenure track.
So where the hell is all the money going. Yes there are cuts, but we still see new buildings and programs. I realize these are different budgets a lot of times, but it's still getting really ridiculous.
If universities want to do something real, they need to stop worrying about unions and start tackling the student debt situation. They draw students deeper into debt than they've ever been in history to fund their institutions. You can no longer work a part time job and pay for many state schools. And what if those kids graduate and decide they really hate engineering or business or whatever they got. Now they feel like slaves, working jobs they hate to pay off that debt.
We desperately need student debt forgiveness. It has to happen. The bubble needs to burst, the system needs to collapse and schools need to scrap and rebuild programs that are affordable, that work and that are significantly better and different than their shitty for profit counterparts, which they're becoming more like everyday.
I watched a lot of fellow grad students struggle, constantly worrying about grants and funding. Some just took loans, others rushing so they could get through before their fellowships ended.
Meanwhile you watch new buildings, dorms and student centers go up as undergrad tuition goes up. Most professors I know who are my age are all adjunct or part time, but it's their full time gig.
Adjuncts positions were meant for professionals in the field who wanted to teach a class or two. The position is really being abused to keep from paying hard working professors a full-time wage and keeping them from a tenure track.
So where the hell is all the money going. Yes there are cuts, but we still see new buildings and programs. I realize these are different budgets a lot of times, but it's still getting really ridiculous.
If universities want to do something real, they need to stop worrying about unions and start tackling the student debt situation. They draw students deeper into debt than they've ever been in history to fund their institutions. You can no longer work a part time job and pay for many state schools. And what if those kids graduate and decide they really hate engineering or business or whatever they got. Now they feel like slaves, working jobs they hate to pay off that debt.
We desperately need student debt forgiveness. It has to happen. The bubble needs to burst, the system needs to collapse and schools need to scrap and rebuild programs that are affordable, that work and that are significantly better and different than their shitty for profit counterparts, which they're becoming more like everyday.
Administration is like a giant vacuum.
Several things to note in this issue.
1. Regarding huge number of grads and few people voting - wiki and other aggregate sources of info will only tell you the total number of students listed as "enrolled" at the school. Not all of them taught in the previous five quarters. That actually reduces the number of grads eligible to vote drastically.
2. Regarding the comments linking union to money. It is by no means guaranteed that a union can increase the salaries paid to grad students. And in fact most grad students (at least at the PhD level) survive off the stipend not the TA/RA salary. As far as I understand the union has no bearing in the stipend amount. There is also the thing that UChicago is cash strapped. It doesn't have the liquid assets to increase anyone's salaries. (Look up the aggressive campaign to sell UChicago owned buildings in HP if you are curios).
3. A union, as an organization of people, by definition caters to the average contributor. In a factory where the workers provide similar enough service that 'an average' is still a meaningful concept, a union can do some good. In my opinion, in a union of all grad students across all departments, 'average demand' is meaningless. Each department can't even agree internally on what their students need, so I'm not sure how a union will find common ground among all the departments. On the one hand limiting the number of hours in a work day sounds good, no? But ask a science grad - they will likely complain that they no longer have time to finish their experiment in time. Giving students a choice in which class they want to TA sounds good, no? But ask a student in humanities - they will tell you that seventeen of them apply for the same spot that only one person can have so they would prefer assigned positions not chosen ones. Etc, etc, etc.
1. Regarding huge number of grads and few people voting - wiki and other aggregate sources of info will only tell you the total number of students listed as "enrolled" at the school. Not all of them taught in the previous five quarters. That actually reduces the number of grads eligible to vote drastically.
2. Regarding the comments linking union to money. It is by no means guaranteed that a union can increase the salaries paid to grad students. And in fact most grad students (at least at the PhD level) survive off the stipend not the TA/RA salary. As far as I understand the union has no bearing in the stipend amount. There is also the thing that UChicago is cash strapped. It doesn't have the liquid assets to increase anyone's salaries. (Look up the aggressive campaign to sell UChicago owned buildings in HP if you are curios).
3. A union, as an organization of people, by definition caters to the average contributor. In a factory where the workers provide similar enough service that 'an average' is still a meaningful concept, a union can do some good. In my opinion, in a union of all grad students across all departments, 'average demand' is meaningless. Each department can't even agree internally on what their students need, so I'm not sure how a union will find common ground among all the departments. On the one hand limiting the number of hours in a work day sounds good, no? But ask a science grad - they will likely complain that they no longer have time to finish their experiment in time. Giving students a choice in which class they want to TA sounds good, no? But ask a student in humanities - they will tell you that seventeen of them apply for the same spot that only one person can have so they would prefer assigned positions not chosen ones. Etc, etc, etc.
I'm not sure the uchicago sell off is because they are cash strapped. probably because uchicago feels like it no longer has to ensure that hyde park experiences urban decay (aka why they bought the buildings) and to shift those funds it into something with a better rate of return.
-no longer has to ensure hyde park DOESNT experience urban decay
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Princeton did this last year as well.
Seems unlikely to drive the cost of education lower.
The value of a degree will continue to lose ground against the cost. This is not good.
The value of a degree will continue to lose ground against the cost. This is not good.
This is a direct consequence of rising enrollment rates in college. A degree is a largely a positional good - it only helps your employment prospects by making the limited number of open positions more likely to be filled by you rather than someone without a degree. In other words, the marginal extra law degree results in nearer to zero additional employed lawyers, rather than one.
Of the 2,457 students in the bargaining unit, 1,103 students voted in favor, 479 students voted against, two ballots could not be counted and 873 did not vote.
As for the news from UChicago, I congratulate my former colleagues, and yet I also know that it's not enough. I started a Ph.D. in the humanities at Illinois and left after 2.5 years. Our union was great, but no union is enough. We were fighting to prevent the administration from docking our meager $17k/year pay for frivolous BS reasons, and while I'm grateful for what the union did for us, in another way it was so shortsighted. Why were the stewards of civilization making $17k/year in the first place? Why couldn't we make far, far more, worthy of the years of specialized knowledge that we had developed at great cost?
The union could never answer these questions. Actually, most people thought I was crazy for even asking them. We spent all day denouncing capitalism, and yet we were enthralled to the myth of the Protestant work ethic, that compensation is somehow tied to our self-worth. And that misguided albeit well-meaning hypocrisy why I left academia and joined Silicon Valley.