Review: Tesla Model 3 lives up to hype(detroitnews.com)
detroitnews.com
Review: Tesla Model 3 lives up to hype
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/henry-payne/2018/02/26/tesla-model-three-test-drive-detroit/110880692/
161 comments
The single screen and the underwhelming on-wheel controls are the reason I’m avoiding the Model 3 despite distinctly looking forward to it for a while.
Yep, I've commented on this before. It's a safety hazard and is bad UX.
Having seen and dealt with the Model S screen before, no thank you, not interested.
Having seen and dealt with the Model S screen before, no thank you, not interested.
It's worth noting that Model S can control a lot of things from the steering wheel buttons. (You may already know this, but many commenters in the past haven't.)
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IMHO, Lack of a proper dashboard/steering wheel controls in Model 3 is a dealbreaker for me too. It is not even available as an optional package. Audi has a virtual cockpit, model 3 should have some thing like that.
With no hard evidence, but still: wouldn't you think they've already thought of these issues and have addressed these? I.e no designer whims, and good software separation on whatever runs in the car. One would think they have, since many if not most are concerned -- perhaps more so among us on the software front since there are many devs here who know more about ins-and-outs.
I would have thought that Jeep had thought of that too, and yet they had vehicles that could be hacked through OnStar. When it comes to security, safety and remote control by someone else of a vehicle weighing almost 2 tons and able to reach freeway speeds in a few seconds, assumption is not what I want to rely on.
Airplanes with glass cockpit still have analog instruments. Doubly redundant, separate visual reference and separate meausurement.
Teslas get OTA updates, so I'm pretty sure they're always connected. A big downside in my opinion
Is there a way to control that? Can you run your Tesla in airplane mode?
I've no idea
Yes the single touch screen instrumentation is a deal killer for me. I will not buy a Model 3 for this reason, the Chevy Bolt has a much more traditional interior that I prefer. As does the Nissan Leaf.
Having to look down at a center-mounted console to see your current speed seems dangerous.
Really, the whole "remove all tactile console controls and slap in an iPad" thing seems lazy and tacky.
Really, the whole "remove all tactile console controls and slap in an iPad" thing seems lazy and tacky.
to, for example, having to change the autopilot cruise control follow distance apparently you have to
When it's raining I usually adjust the speed of the windshield wipers very often depending on precipitation level and spray of the car in front of me, the last thing I want to do in a reduced visibility situation is to have to futz around with a touch tablet to do so: I want a rotating dial on the stalk so I can change things without having to look anywhere else. Apparently on the model-3 this setting is also part of the tablet interface.
I cannot believe that when you have tons of "distracted driving" laws to prevent people from texting while driving, manufacturers are allowed to produce cars where you more or less need to text to actually control the car.
I am all for technological advancement, but having a tablet-driven car makes as much sense as having a tablet as your desktop keyboard where you'd have to look down all the time to figure out where the keys are.
- find and tap "vehicle settings"
- find the "autopilot" text label and tap it
- now find the "+" and "-" buttons and tap them to adjust
When it's raining I usually adjust the speed of the windshield wipers very often depending on precipitation level and spray of the car in front of me, the last thing I want to do in a reduced visibility situation is to have to futz around with a touch tablet to do so: I want a rotating dial on the stalk so I can change things without having to look anywhere else. Apparently on the model-3 this setting is also part of the tablet interface.
I cannot believe that when you have tons of "distracted driving" laws to prevent people from texting while driving, manufacturers are allowed to produce cars where you more or less need to text to actually control the car.
I am all for technological advancement, but having a tablet-driven car makes as much sense as having a tablet as your desktop keyboard where you'd have to look down all the time to figure out where the keys are.
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Which is why Tesla is putting so much emphasis on voice controls.
do you think it's a better user experience to have to say out loud "windshield wipers faster" / "windshield wipers slower" every 30 seconds compared to subtly clicking the control on the stem? How well will it work with music on and while you're having a random conversation with your passengers? How well will it discriminate random voices on the radio telling your car things like "driver seat recline angle flat" or "driver seat position full back"?
Voice control is a good things for services but not for driving related controls, it's a QOL increase to be able to tell your car "set the a/c to 67 degrees", but let's leave the driving related functions (lights, wipers, cruise, ...) to hardware buttons/dials on the stem where they belong.
Voice control is a good things for services but not for driving related controls, it's a QOL increase to be able to tell your car "set the a/c to 67 degrees", but let's leave the driving related functions (lights, wipers, cruise, ...) to hardware buttons/dials on the stem where they belong.
That sounds annoying when you kids sleeping in the back seat.
Sort of related, but an idea I had recently on a longer drive: I want a max speed control in my car. Not cruise control, I just want to be able to set the max speed I can ever drive on my current trip (say, 75 mph) and then my car only ever goes that fast when I am pressing the accelerator. I recently got a much faster car, and on the drive I would look down and realize I'm going way too fast. Would be nice to not have to trust my foot for that.
I rented a campervan in New Zealand that had that feature. They called it a "programmable limiter". It was fantastic, I loved it. If I drive with the pedal to the metal, all the way down, then it works identically to cruise control. But you can also slow down for curves or traffic, and then resume your desired speed, without having to mess with any controls.
I don't know if that was a new zealand thing, or a campervan thing. However from what I've googled, it's becoming a more common feature. https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/459/what-is-a-speed-limiter
I don't know if that was a new zealand thing, or a campervan thing. However from what I've googled, it's becoming a more common feature. https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/459/what-is-a-speed-limiter
It would be nice if there was a little bit harder pressure section at the end of the pedal travel that disengaged it, so in situations where it's dangerous to be artificially limited in speed (such as overtaking another vehicle) there's an easy and intuitive way to disengage it that's normal behavior. Stomp on the pedal for speed and no limitation present, gently press until higher resistance section of pedal travel (which should feel a bit like the pedal being entirely depressed) and it works as advertised.
I know Mercedes often have that extra resistance level, since I've relatives' Mercedes some (I don't know if it function in cruise control or speed limiting in any way). I always found it annoying, because it came with what felt like a lagged and softened engine response until you utilized it. That just made the cars feel like they had two modes when starting from a stop sign, too slow or too fast, depending on how hard you pressed. :/ Perhaps I would have adjusted better if I drove one for more than a couple days.
I know Mercedes often have that extra resistance level, since I've relatives' Mercedes some (I don't know if it function in cruise control or speed limiting in any way). I always found it annoying, because it came with what felt like a lagged and softened engine response until you utilized it. That just made the cars feel like they had two modes when starting from a stop sign, too slow or too fast, depending on how hard you pressed. :/ Perhaps I would have adjusted better if I drove one for more than a couple days.
That's a pretty normal feature on Mercedes.
That seems to be pretty common, I even rented a Nissan Qashqai here in Sweden that had it, not a fancy car at all.
This is a fairly common feature in many car models.
That sounds incredibly dangerous. What if you need a burst of acceleration in some emergency?
Edit: Good points about the emergency cutoff being feasible, I stand corrected.
Edit: Good points about the emergency cutoff being feasible, I stand corrected.
These devices exist, and are quite common in some countries. The number of situations where you need to suddenly accelerate past the speed limit are few and far between, but in the case of the car I rented recently, there was a single tactile button for turning the whole feature off.
How about have a point at which the pedal has extra resistance, and if you push through it, you can go over the limit?
I'm pretty sure that the Volvo XC70 I rented two years ago had exactly this feature. If you'd kickdown it will release all the furious anger hidden beneath the hood.
Every automatic does this, even a 1980's classic Mini has a kickdown cable. It basically forces the gearbox to shift down to one gear lower than it would normally do at the speed you are traveling at.
That makes sense, and I’d pay for that feature.
Well, it's the inverse of cruise control. So some comparable way to disengage quickly like tapping on the brakes could be thought up I'm sure.
There are plenty of cars with speedometer positioned in the middle (particularly from french automakers), some people don't mind that.
I personally never even look at the car with speedometer in the middle, just cannot stand the looks of it. Maybe by the time I will be able to afford Model 3 I'll grow not to mind their interior looks, but at this moment it's the most horrible looking interior I have seen. Seems more like something what hobbyist would do rather then automaker. Sad really.
I personally never even look at the car with speedometer in the middle, just cannot stand the looks of it. Maybe by the time I will be able to afford Model 3 I'll grow not to mind their interior looks, but at this moment it's the most horrible looking interior I have seen. Seems more like something what hobbyist would do rather then automaker. Sad really.
They don't have it installed like Tesla though - it's higher in the field of view and usually in "infinite" focus. Not in a corner of a tacked on tablet.
> There are plenty of cars with speedometer positioned in the middle
They are usually set up to mitigate shift from far to near focus and how far you have to look from the road; they actually keep your eye closer to the road than traditional behind the wheel instruments.
The Model 3 megatablet isn't like those displays.
They are usually set up to mitigate shift from far to near focus and how far you have to look from the road; they actually keep your eye closer to the road than traditional behind the wheel instruments.
The Model 3 megatablet isn't like those displays.
Hopefully the autopilot is good enough that we won't have to worry about our current speed.
IMO, most automakers put too much crap on the dash and it eventually breaks or becomes outdated. I have two cars with built-in navigation systems that are essentially useless to me because they don't include traffic information.
IMO, most automakers put too much crap on the dash and it eventually breaks or becomes outdated. I have two cars with built-in navigation systems that are essentially useless to me because they don't include traffic information.
To be pedantic, the Model 3's speedometer is considerably higher than the speedometer of most cars. You have to look right, not down.
Right, and if you're tall it's often a chore to see the speedometer through the steering wheel, it sometimes requires moving your head. This might be an improvement.
This is curious. I'm 6'"4 and have never had a problem seeing the speedometer in any car I have driven, sure I might have to adjust the seat but I've never had to peer around the steering wheel. This includes a 1974 TR6 that was way way too small for me, two Mini Coopers (though in that case it's the tacho behind the steering wheel), and various French and Italian cars. Now I have much bigger cars but it ain't because of the speedo.
> I'm 6'"4 and have never had a problem seeing the speedometer in any car I have driven
I have this problem all the time. Often the top is cut off by the steering wheel. I adjust the seat and the steering wheel to fix it though, not a big deal.
I have this problem all the time. Often the top is cut off by the steering wheel. I adjust the seat and the steering wheel to fix it though, not a big deal.
Yup, to go even further the Saturn Ion had almost the exact same placement ~10 years ago.
Remember car shopping and hating those center console displays.
I like Mazda's HUD system (think some luxury cars have had such solutions for awhile) which allows you not even change the focus of your eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZdisJihI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dr02z6tgss
I like Mazda's HUD system (think some luxury cars have had such solutions for awhile) which allows you not even change the focus of your eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZdisJihI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dr02z6tgss
That is hideous, is that the final version? Looks like a hacked in screen that would be in something while they are still developing it.
I've driven a model 3, and it's not distracting. The position relative to your eyes is very similar to the position of the dash on a Prius, for example.
While I completely agree, your statement made me consider that altogether it's not much different from looking down at a normal car's speedometer already.
In the U.K. there’s such concern over being distracted while driving that it’s illegal to touch a smartphone while driving even if you’re just using google maps. Not sure a giant touchscreen in the middle of the dashboard would be any better.
What would be cool would be a long thin OLED screen where the instrumentation normally goes. And physical controls with a Taptic-style feedback mechanism for navigating dynamic interfaces.
This would allow for a more fluid, updateable UI while still keeping important info in the eyeline.
More expensive than just slapping an off-the-shelf LCD panel wherever it’ll fit I guess...
What would be cool would be a long thin OLED screen where the instrumentation normally goes. And physical controls with a Taptic-style feedback mechanism for navigating dynamic interfaces.
This would allow for a more fluid, updateable UI while still keeping important info in the eyeline.
More expensive than just slapping an off-the-shelf LCD panel wherever it’ll fit I guess...
Should be a heads-up display.
I have a heads-up display in my Audi A4, and it turns out to be surprisingly useful. It shows speed limit, current speed, and upcoming navigation turns. The only problem is that it can be difficult to see if wearing polarized sunglasses.
Interesting, I wonder if that's an unsolved problem - BMW's HUD has the same issue.
Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't do that.
Once you have speed & navigation on the windshield you don't look elsewhere for that information. It's easier and safer, so it feels like a new standard. When I drive other cars it's something that I really miss.
Once you have speed & navigation on the windshield you don't look elsewhere for that information. It's easier and safer, so it feels like a new standard. When I drive other cars it's something that I really miss.
Yes that's one feature I really miss from my old Pontiac. I don't know why more manufacturers don't offer HUDs. It really does help improve safety by keeping the driver's eyes on the road.
I was thinking this also, seems like the perfect thing.
It could highlight hazards and turn-offs, especially at night. And all the other data that the automated driving system collects. I bet it'd be safer even if you didn't switch to fully automatic. It'd be awesome. Maybe we can get it as an add on.
That's the same in every Mini.
Not quite. The large round speedometer in the center on the mini is only to honor the old mini look. They also have a fairly large digital speedometer on the top of the steering column.
What makes it any worse than having to look down at an instrument panel?
Takes longer to move your gaze, and less of the road is in your peripheral vision.
Is it actually farther away, in terms of angles, than a normal instrument cluster? Looks similar to me. I haven’t sat in one yet though.
Seems basically the same as the Toyota Prius.
The newer Prius speedometer (etc.) is a more distant, behind the console display. (Previously, Prius used behind-the-wheel.) The angle might be similar (though the Tesla looks significantly lower), and the Tesla display seems (again, from photos) to require nearer focus.
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iPad Pro
disagree. having buttons and knobs just because it's the norm and auto manufacturers don't want to risk changing annoys the crap out of me.
remove every single tactile element. have convenient touch interface. have usable voice control. that's the future. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes.
Edit: what is it with people not reading the message before commenting on it? that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes.
remove every single tactile element. have convenient touch interface. have usable voice control. that's the future. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes.
Edit: what is it with people not reading the message before commenting on it? that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes. that's also an exaggeration, but i'd like the pendulum to swing there and see where it stabilizes.
> having buttons and knobs just because it's the norm
What about having buttons and knobs just because you can use them without looking at them? Because that's what makes them extraordinarily useful when compared to a touchscreen.
> remove every single tactile element. have convenient touch interface. have usable voice control.
Just to imagine out loud: you want to change lanes. In order to activate your indicator, you have to look down at a touchscreen, or say "Car, activate left indicator!". I struggle to see how either of those could be an improvement on the current controls. Now I come to think of it, the wheel is a tactile element! Maybe we could implement a left-to-right slider on a touchscreen you could use to control car direction?
I get that you're not actually advocating for that, but I also don't think we really need to test out the hypothesis to know that it's a bad idea.
What about having buttons and knobs just because you can use them without looking at them? Because that's what makes them extraordinarily useful when compared to a touchscreen.
> remove every single tactile element. have convenient touch interface. have usable voice control.
Just to imagine out loud: you want to change lanes. In order to activate your indicator, you have to look down at a touchscreen, or say "Car, activate left indicator!". I struggle to see how either of those could be an improvement on the current controls. Now I come to think of it, the wheel is a tactile element! Maybe we could implement a left-to-right slider on a touchscreen you could use to control car direction?
I get that you're not actually advocating for that, but I also don't think we really need to test out the hypothesis to know that it's a bad idea.
As someone with touch interfaces in their car for a lot of traditional things: sorry, you’re dead wrong.
In practice, the inability to do things without looking over to make sure your finger is in the right place is a big problem.
It’s far too easy to hit the wrong thing or hit nothing. There’s no good way to judge how much you’re adjusting something without looking at it.
It’s infuriating. If it wasn’t for the tactile controls on my steering wheel I wouldn’t have bought he car. It’s that bad.
In practice, the inability to do things without looking over to make sure your finger is in the right place is a big problem.
It’s far too easy to hit the wrong thing or hit nothing. There’s no good way to judge how much you’re adjusting something without looking at it.
It’s infuriating. If it wasn’t for the tactile controls on my steering wheel I wouldn’t have bought he car. It’s that bad.
Knobs are safer, a flat screen by definition requires your eyes to be on it to use since there is no tactile component. And if your eyes aren't on the road...
You are thinking about this based on your experience with traditional cars. When you drive today, think about all the moments of interactions that you have with the car while driving. It is fairly limited. You would change volume controls, turn on wipers, skip music, call someone etc. And almost all of those controls are either available via the steering wheels knobs or readily available on the giant screen (e.g., climate controls). The touch screen is really there for secondary controls such as vehicle settings and user preferences. Most people are thinking that you have to navigate some menu to increase volume. But that's not the case.
But even if they're right on the giant screen, you still have to look. A dashboard knob can be used without ever taking the eyes from the road.
Tactile feedback allows you to use controls without taking your eyes off the road. Do you really want the opposite of this in a car?
Couldn't disagree more, but I guess there will be that division between people. Cars are not the phones and at least until I'm driving my car myself, I will always prefer buttons or other tactile UI instead of touchscreen.
And voice control, well if you are non English speaker, good luck with that :)
I think it's pretty clear that touch is third rate for many applications. Such as where you'd like to reliably and quickly operate a control without looking at it.
Voice control. No thanks. Optional for the stereo perhaps, but I absolutely do not want a car that's voice controlled where I can travel with 4 other humans. Kids are noisy. Teen friends might find it comical to shout out "handbrake!". Need I go on?
Yes, I know tactile switches and knobs are so last century, but they look like actually the best tool for the job.
Voice control. No thanks. Optional for the stereo perhaps, but I absolutely do not want a car that's voice controlled where I can travel with 4 other humans. Kids are noisy. Teen friends might find it comical to shout out "handbrake!". Need I go on?
Yes, I know tactile switches and knobs are so last century, but they look like actually the best tool for the job.
> Teen friends might find it comical to shout out "handbrake!".
obviously not for anything driving related. there's still plenty left: radio/music, ac, navigation, phone interactions.
i don't really know where people got the idea i was talking about driving related instruments. they are almost never "buttons and knobs".
obviously not for anything driving related. there's still plenty left: radio/music, ac, navigation, phone interactions.
i don't really know where people got the idea i was talking about driving related instruments. they are almost never "buttons and knobs".
I rented a Tesla Model S four months ago, and I enjoyed it very much, except for the fact that they had hidden the button for the fog lights in some menu on the touch screen - it was not easy to turn on and off while driving - at all! Otherwise, it felt like someone had thinked through the most things.
I can already can change volume, change track, mute, answer/hang-up a call, signal, adjust my lights, set/cancel cruise control, wash my windscreen, and other stuff I have forgotton without taking my hands off the steering wheel
Never liked the idea of touch controls in cars. You don't need to look at knobs to find and operate them, but you absolutely need to look at a touchscreen and that just gives people more chances to get distracted from the road.
Someday, when the computer glitches or is slow to boot up, and you'd really like the AC to turn on, please update your comment above.
Tried a Peugeot 308 2017 that replaces a lot od buttons (ac,..) with a touch interface.
This being a french car maker they obviously skimp on having adequate performance - interface is slow as hell. Just increasing ventilation is a 30s process.
It actually made me rethink my purchase an go for a different brand.
I know buttons are expensive if you want good looking + ergonomic ones (a tablet is a great cost saving measure), but its worse for todays cars.
For cars in 5 yr time touch will be the norm and not a problem since full autonomy vehicles remove the worry of keeping your eyes on the road.
I would really count touch as a minus for tesla, but it sure is visionary. Kindof like we hated iphone for going with touch and no physical keyboard. It's stkll shitty bur we addpyed. Sort-off ;)
This being a french car maker they obviously skimp on having adequate performance - interface is slow as hell. Just increasing ventilation is a 30s process.
It actually made me rethink my purchase an go for a different brand.
I know buttons are expensive if you want good looking + ergonomic ones (a tablet is a great cost saving measure), but its worse for todays cars.
For cars in 5 yr time touch will be the norm and not a problem since full autonomy vehicles remove the worry of keeping your eyes on the road.
I would really count touch as a minus for tesla, but it sure is visionary. Kindof like we hated iphone for going with touch and no physical keyboard. It's stkll shitty bur we addpyed. Sort-off ;)
Speaking from a necessity standpoint, how often does someone actually check their speed? How often does one need to check their speed?
How often do you look at your car's thermometer, clock, compass, stereo, HVAC controls, or seat warmer switch? I would say 2 or more at least 2 times per car ride.
In my experience I am either on small roads where the person in front of me or the windiness of the road artificially limit my speed to something around the speed limit. Or I am on a busy road where I am traveling close to the speed of traffic regardless of the speed limit.
About the only time I check my speed is when I feel in danger and I want to rule myself out as the cause or when I see a cop car and I want to avoid getting pulled over.
From what I have heard in reviews, the speed is displayed in the top right corner of the display and is no harder to see than a regular speedometer.
How often do you look at your car's thermometer, clock, compass, stereo, HVAC controls, or seat warmer switch? I would say 2 or more at least 2 times per car ride.
In my experience I am either on small roads where the person in front of me or the windiness of the road artificially limit my speed to something around the speed limit. Or I am on a busy road where I am traveling close to the speed of traffic regardless of the speed limit.
About the only time I check my speed is when I feel in danger and I want to rule myself out as the cause or when I see a cop car and I want to avoid getting pulled over.
From what I have heard in reviews, the speed is displayed in the top right corner of the display and is no harder to see than a regular speedometer.
I am constantly checking my speed. But I guess that explains my frustration at other people who seem to swing wildly +-5 MPH for no clear reason.
This is why I'm so upset that my 2014 Leaf didn't have cruise control by default. It'd be like $300 to get it installed aftermarket.
$300 is surprisingly inexpensive. I'm assuming the wiring harness is in place and that's just to replace the steering wheel face to give you the controls?
Oh-- I thought it was expensive!! Yeah, I can imagine all that needs to happen is they need to pull off a little face plate and put in the buttons/switches. I'm now embarrassed that I haven't figured out how to do it myself.
Not sure where you live but in places like Australia, UK etc. there are speed restrictions for certain areas.
In particular when you drop from 60km/h to 40km/h during a school zone. These are often continuously monitored by speed cameras and subject to excessive fines and often loss of license. And if you've ever been in a high end car this drop in speed is often hard to notice.
So yes, a lot of the population are constantly checking their speeds. Otherwise you at risk of losing your license and if you cause an accident going to jail.
In particular when you drop from 60km/h to 40km/h during a school zone. These are often continuously monitored by speed cameras and subject to excessive fines and often loss of license. And if you've ever been in a high end car this drop in speed is often hard to notice.
So yes, a lot of the population are constantly checking their speeds. Otherwise you at risk of losing your license and if you cause an accident going to jail.
We have speed controlled zones in the US as well and I don't see how that makes a difference. It's a speed limit, not a speed requirement. Unless you're riding the speed limit and leaving yourself no margin for error then you should be actively monitoring your speedometer with sub-minute frequency and having to glance to your side instead of down isn't going to impact you much if at all.
My point is that where I'm from I typically don't get to decide my speed because it's dictated by externalities like traffic or road conditions. I also have a pretty good idea of the speed I'm travel and when moving through speed control zones I know if I need to slow down without watching my speedometer like a hawk.
My point is that where I'm from I typically don't get to decide my speed because it's dictated by externalities like traffic or road conditions. I also have a pretty good idea of the speed I'm travel and when moving through speed control zones I know if I need to slow down without watching my speedometer like a hawk.
Are there no speed cameras where you are from?
Most people I know would get between 5 and 10 fines per ride if they did not check their speed.
Most people I know would get between 5 and 10 fines per ride if they did not check their speed.
A speed limit is an upper bound maximum safe speed, not the speed you're required to travel at on the road. If you're unable to approximate your speed and keep it under the speed limit without a gauge then maybe you shouldn't be driving?
I'm sorry, but the big flatscreen in the middle of the dash is just moronic.
I don't want to have to take my eyes off of the road to see my speed.
Humans like controlling things via touch. Ironically, since touch screens are smooth, there is zero tactile feedback. It's impossible to use it without looking at it, and if the driver is looking at the screen, they aren't looking at the road. This is especially true because of the touch screen's position relative to the driver.
A head up display projection directly on the windshield, directly in front of the driver (with control buttons on the steering wheel) should be the bare minimum for any modern car.
I don't want to have to take my eyes off of the road to see my speed.
Humans like controlling things via touch. Ironically, since touch screens are smooth, there is zero tactile feedback. It's impossible to use it without looking at it, and if the driver is looking at the screen, they aren't looking at the road. This is especially true because of the touch screen's position relative to the driver.
A head up display projection directly on the windshield, directly in front of the driver (with control buttons on the steering wheel) should be the bare minimum for any modern car.
I'd like to see some real-world reports on how useable having most of the controls in the screen are. My first concern is being able to accurately interact with it while the car is moving -- personally my arm would be bouncing all over the place from car motion when the arm is extended that far.
As a point of reference, my Ford has their new Sync 3 system, and I often need to steady my hand by resting the thumb just past the edge of the screen. Many controls are available on my car as physical knobs, levers, and buttons, in addition to the screen, but some things like setting dual-zone climate control or manually moving the vent between floor and dash are screen only. And I typically can only mess with that at a stop light.
Now the counter-arguments on the Tesla would include that their self-driving capabilities decrease the risk of looking at the screen for a few seconds, and the screen placement probably helps too. But I'd still like to see some long-term reports as situations arise, such as when a passing truck sprays water/mud on the windshield and you need to quickly increase the speed of the wipers to high and put the windshield wash on. Or a rapidly changing climate condition causes the windshield to suddenly fog over (doesn't happen that often, but it has for me periodically), and you need to take a glove off to get the screen to work.
My other gripe is that the screen isn't molded into the dash, but on a stem sticking out -- it doesn't really look like it is part of the car. And looking at the pictures, the only thing I can think of is that this was a cost cut, as it is probably expensive designing and manufacturing all the normal dash controls.
But then again, I could be wrong, but if not, I really hope the rest of the industry doesn't follow. And I hope that this isn't a trend for Tesla, and future models will have more driver friendly controls.
As a point of reference, my Ford has their new Sync 3 system, and I often need to steady my hand by resting the thumb just past the edge of the screen. Many controls are available on my car as physical knobs, levers, and buttons, in addition to the screen, but some things like setting dual-zone climate control or manually moving the vent between floor and dash are screen only. And I typically can only mess with that at a stop light.
Now the counter-arguments on the Tesla would include that their self-driving capabilities decrease the risk of looking at the screen for a few seconds, and the screen placement probably helps too. But I'd still like to see some long-term reports as situations arise, such as when a passing truck sprays water/mud on the windshield and you need to quickly increase the speed of the wipers to high and put the windshield wash on. Or a rapidly changing climate condition causes the windshield to suddenly fog over (doesn't happen that often, but it has for me periodically), and you need to take a glove off to get the screen to work.
My other gripe is that the screen isn't molded into the dash, but on a stem sticking out -- it doesn't really look like it is part of the car. And looking at the pictures, the only thing I can think of is that this was a cost cut, as it is probably expensive designing and manufacturing all the normal dash controls.
But then again, I could be wrong, but if not, I really hope the rest of the industry doesn't follow. And I hope that this isn't a trend for Tesla, and future models will have more driver friendly controls.
I suspect the rest of the industry won't follow because we have many decades worth of research into why tactile buttons and knobs are a good thing while piloting vehicles. This just reeks of Musk overriding his designers in service of a pure vision, and frankly it's reckless and I plan to give Teslas I see on the road a wide berth so they don't murder me while trying to change the airflow via touchscreens with zero feedback.
From a "visual" statement, at least from the pictures, something about that dash (at least to me, others may differ) screams out "cheap" and "cost cut". I'd really like to know if this was the case (cost cut), or if it really was a design choice.
My suspicion is less cost cutting and more designers not being allowed to do good work. A lot of the interior decisions feel like the results of edicts from the top by someone who has no design sense.
> personally my arm would be bouncing all over the place from car motion when the arm is extended that far.
Good point -- this screen would be basically unusable in much of Houston, TX, due to rough roads.
Good point -- this screen would be basically unusable in much of Houston, TX, due to rough roads.
All these comments about hardware buttons will in a few years inspire the same chuckles reading comments about how hardware keyboards are absolutely essential for cellphones from 2007.
I don't completely buy that argument - we still use hardware keyboards for laptop and desktop computers. Some hardware interfaces are just naturally superior. Humans are tactile beings, and if you want to operate an interface without looking at it, you need an interface that a person can feel.
I have a Cadillac XTS, and it is a 100% touch interface. I cannot do anything with the radio/climate without taking my eyes off the road. I absolutely hate it. It doesn't respond well in the hot Texas summers, and requires more effort to operate than even the cheapest in-dash car UI. Contrast to my friend's Audi, which I can do most things with the center mounted dial without looking, just by memorizing how the console feels.
I have a Cadillac XTS, and it is a 100% touch interface. I cannot do anything with the radio/climate without taking my eyes off the road. I absolutely hate it. It doesn't respond well in the hot Texas summers, and requires more effort to operate than even the cheapest in-dash car UI. Contrast to my friend's Audi, which I can do most things with the center mounted dial without looking, just by memorizing how the console feels.
Somehow almost all phone manufacturers in 2018 still include hardware buttons in their phones, precisely when the UX of a hardware button is better.
The Model 3 also has some hardware buttons.
Just because something happened in one situation doesn't mean it'll happen again in a different situation. By your logic we'd all be using laptops with touchscreen keyboards now, but we aren't.
To belabour an obvious point: when you are driving a car it is vitally important that you keep your eyes on the road. When you are operating a mobile device, much less so. So hardware controls are far more useful in a car than they are on a phone. Touchscreen keyboards on phones are a trade-off - what you lose in tactile feedback, you make up on valuable screen real estate. That logic doesn't apply to cars either.
To belabour an obvious point: when you are driving a car it is vitally important that you keep your eyes on the road. When you are operating a mobile device, much less so. So hardware controls are far more useful in a car than they are on a phone. Touchscreen keyboards on phones are a trade-off - what you lose in tactile feedback, you make up on valuable screen real estate. That logic doesn't apply to cars either.
I still hate giving up my screen to onscreen keyboard and would love a clamshell keyboard for my android phone...
They also said SD card are going away, that hasnt worked out so well. Neither has the headphone jack for audiophiles.
They also said SD card are going away, that hasnt worked out so well. Neither has the headphone jack for audiophiles.
I'd argue the headphone jack is staying around because most people including myself don't want to be forced to use bluetooth ones which are more expensive and require recharging.
A headphone converter dongle that plugs into the usb connection is also an option.
Yeah, my brother has to use one of those with his new iPhone and hates it because it prevents you from also charging the phone (a problem while he is using battery costly GPS). He has also had to buy like 4 now because apple cords are so awful.
If anyone at Apple reads this comment, for the love of god fix your cords. Fake Chinese dongle/cords are better than the ones you guys make which is atrocious from a company that brands itself as high quality.
Here are your macbook pro power charger reviews of which 152 out of 170 reviews are 1/5 mostly because they are so fragile they break: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD565LL/A/apple-60w-magsa...
Here are your iphone jack to headphone jack reviews of which 376 out of 479 are 1/5 mostly due to breaking: https://www.apple.com/shop/reviews/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
If anyone at Apple reads this comment, for the love of god fix your cords. Fake Chinese dongle/cords are better than the ones you guys make which is atrocious from a company that brands itself as high quality.
Here are your macbook pro power charger reviews of which 152 out of 170 reviews are 1/5 mostly because they are so fragile they break: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD565LL/A/apple-60w-magsa...
Here are your iphone jack to headphone jack reviews of which 376 out of 479 are 1/5 mostly due to breaking: https://www.apple.com/shop/reviews/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
The dongle is one more thing to buy, to keep around, to carry, to plug, to replace when misplaced...
Everyone thinks they'd hate the Tesla interface, but I don't personally know a single owner that doesn't love it. I understand the argument for tactile feedback, but the pros I get from the Tesla display outweigh them for me, personally. I dread going back to a dash full of buttons.
Maybe _owner_ means there is already bias in your sample...
Definitely. However, speaking of myself personally, I was apprehensive of the touch screen when I bought it. I thought it looked cool but was worried about usability. 2 year (and one major UI refresh) later, I have no more concerns.
I'm now imagining trying to drive a car with a touch screen steering wheel and touch screen pedals.
Saab once made a prototype with a steer-by-wire joystick. All the reviews I've read were that it wasn't so great -- and clearly, they must have agreed, since they never put it into production.
It's very different from phones, where you don't need to keep your eyes on the road to avoid ramming your 3000lb metal box into the car in front of you.
Tactile controls facilitate use without having to look at them, so you can keep your eyes on the road where they belong.
Tactile controls facilitate use without having to look at them, so you can keep your eyes on the road where they belong.
Hardware keyboards are obviously not essential for cellphones, but that doesn't mean there's no place for them. Markets can be weird sometimes, right now it's just too damned easy to make a huge profit margin selling people smartphones, that limits the pressure to innovate. I, for one, would easily pay a 50% premium (maybe more) for a smartphone that had a good built-in keyboard.
Yeah, I also look forward to when the same concept that brought us "damn you autocorrect" means several pedestrians are dead in the street.
They're not essential but I miss the hardware keyboards.
They were essential. Even the best touchscreen keyboards are still slower for typing. Cellphones have gotten worse in the name of reducing manufacturing costs and allowing a single SKU to be sold in every region.
Should I cancel my Model 3 reservation and get my $1000 back?
Or could I sell it off to someone who now wants a Tesla Model 3 faster?
Or could I sell it off to someone who now wants a Tesla Model 3 faster?
Tesla doesn't allow that without written consent (https://teslanomics.co/can-i-sell-my-model-3-reservation/).
That being said, you can try buying the car and re-selling it immediately.
Whether someone would take you up on that offer is another question.
That being said, you can try buying the car and re-selling it immediately.
Whether someone would take you up on that offer is another question.
Yeah, I was planning on doing that since my brother works for tesla and can skip to the head of the line but then I found out you would have to pay double sales tax on that (1 for the original sale and 1 for the resale). Also, you are technically now allowed to claim the federal tax rebate if you buy the car with the intention of selling (hard to prove but not worth the risk).
Additionally, in the agreement you sign when you take delivery, I believe there is a clause requiring you to not resell for a profit.
Good luck enforcing that. Sell the car at cost and sell a token item for the remainder...
Wow you can’t resell the car for profit? Absurd.
What position are you?
I don't understand everyone's complaints about Model 3 missing tactile buttons. I went from BMW (which had buttons everywhere) to Model S. I have had the S for 2 years and have never missed any tactile button. Nor have I met any Model S owner who has said "I missed those buttons". Tesla allows for an overnight test drive. Try the S. You will not miss any buttons.
> Nor have I met any Model S owner who has said "I missed those buttons". Tesla allows for an overnight test drive.
The second sentence helps explain the first: people who would miss the buttons don't become Model S owners.
The second sentence helps explain the first: people who would miss the buttons don't become Model S owners.
I don't think it explains anything. A car purchase decision is based on a number of different factors. Availability of buttons is certainly one of them, and it is reasonable to believe that many Tesla owners have bought their vehicles despite lack of physical buttons as a compromise. For example, in the Model X forum, you would see a lot of X owners buying the car despite and Falcon Wing Doors and complaining about it later. This doesn't happen at all about the lack of physical buttons.
If the Tesla model 3 was really shipping with an advanced UI, it would feature real tactile dumb buttons. Instead, it removes utility for 'clean' lines. I appreciate the approach (e.g. it worked for Apple), but soft buttons are a bane, IMO.
Perhaps each to their own, but I find the maze of meaningless buttons on most steering wheels to be far worse
For anyone interested, Doug DeMuro's video on the Model 3 is probably the most informative I've seen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8
One of my favourite reviewers. He can be a bit hokey at times, but he truly understands and appreciates cars.
The instrumentation probably won't age well. In 10 years the screen will look like a relic from the stone age.
Tesla now has a ton of experience. Can someone please help me understand why Model 3 production has been so challenging? I get this part that it requires a new production line and have its own part list. Is that the challenge?
Btw, detroitnews.com is a navigation nightmare - popup after popup, auto play ads
Btw, detroitnews.com is a navigation nightmare - popup after popup, auto play ads
> I get this part that it requires a new production line and have its own part list. Is that the challenge?
Yes. Making cars is hard. Making them with a low defect rate is harder still. Making a completely new car on a completely new line is super hard, especially if the cars have to be relatively cheap.
Yes. Making cars is hard. Making them with a low defect rate is harder still. Making a completely new car on a completely new line is super hard, especially if the cars have to be relatively cheap.
Hopefully the Model 3 has a lower defect rate then previous Teslas
According to https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/26/can-tesla-learn-chevy-b..., Tesla managed to build Tesla 3 faster and in greater volume that GM managed to build Chevy Bolt.
Is that accurate?
I don't know but I'm pretty sure manufacturing a completely new car in volume is challenging for any car company, including those that are 100 years old, have tons of money, existing factories and lots of employees.
Is that accurate?
I don't know but I'm pretty sure manufacturing a completely new car in volume is challenging for any car company, including those that are 100 years old, have tons of money, existing factories and lots of employees.
It’s true but a bit pointless. GM isn’t building a lot of Bolts because there aren’t that many buyers for them. If demand suddenly spiked to a million cars a year, they could probably ramp up to meet that demand fairly quickly.
Tesla is ramping up pretty quickly too, though. I think the main difference is that Tesla is being watched by everybody and they’re getting production cars out early. When GM takes some time to ramp up production, people mostly don’t notice or don’t care.
For one example I was personally interested in, the plug-in hybrid version of Mitsubishi’s Outlander has had its US release delayed five years due to production constraints. I think it might finally be available, judging from their web site. I really wanted one back when it was supposed to come out in 2013, but in the intervening half decade I bout a Tesla, reserved another one, and no longer want to buy something that burns any gas.
Tesla is ramping up pretty quickly too, though. I think the main difference is that Tesla is being watched by everybody and they’re getting production cars out early. When GM takes some time to ramp up production, people mostly don’t notice or don’t care.
For one example I was personally interested in, the plug-in hybrid version of Mitsubishi’s Outlander has had its US release delayed five years due to production constraints. I think it might finally be available, judging from their web site. I really wanted one back when it was supposed to come out in 2013, but in the intervening half decade I bout a Tesla, reserved another one, and no longer want to buy something that burns any gas.
Honestly, GM isn't building that many Bolts because they simply don't have the batteries for them. There's usually a waitlist for the ones they have. They sold every single one they manufactured last year.
Really? I test drove one a few months ago and the dealer had three on the lot. Cars.com shows 47 currently available within 30 miles of my zip code in the DC suburbs.
I've read the primary bottleneck is the batteries coming out of the Gigafactory. (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/12/batteries-not-model-3-r...)
Need comparison to GM Bolt EV, probably it's most direct competitor. My bro just got one of those, and it seems to live up to the hype as well.
I’m curious if the average Model 3 buyer is the same as the average electric car buyer. The Model 3 isn’t just an electric car the same way a GM Bolt EV is, the Tesla has all the self-driving features that are still relatively unmatched by other offerings in the market. The Autonomous Bolt EV doesn’t go into production until next year.
Some argue that GM's "Super Cruise" is a better level 2 system than the Tesla systems: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/04/cadillac-super-cruises-...
Not yet available in the Bolt, but maybe in the next model year.
Not yet available in the Bolt, but maybe in the next model year.
>the Tesla has all the self-driving features that are still relatively unmatched by other offerings in the market
Where do you get this idea from?:
"Now, a new report from Navigant Research has dropped, rating the relative positions of various firms racing to develop self-driving cars — and it ranks Tesla dead last, behind the entire field."
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/262510-new-report-self-d...
It's one thing to claim Tesla are really good (and that might be a stretch). But unmatched? Based on what evidence?
Where do you get this idea from?:
"Now, a new report from Navigant Research has dropped, rating the relative positions of various firms racing to develop self-driving cars — and it ranks Tesla dead last, behind the entire field."
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/262510-new-report-self-d...
It's one thing to claim Tesla are really good (and that might be a stretch). But unmatched? Based on what evidence?
Unmatched marketing, for sure. Their system, if they ever turn it on fully, is going to lead to accidents and lawsuits.
I would consider another EV - for me that's the main I'm looking for in my next car. The reason I'm waiting for a model 3 rather than already driving a Bolt or Leaf is largely a matter of battery longevity. I want to have some assurance that the battery will not need replacing in the first 5-10 years. Tesla so far seems to be the best in that regard with their large packs and active pack management. The beauty and performance of the car are a nice plus, but even with that I'm not certain I'll wind up with a 3.
What data have you found regarding superiority of the Tesla Model 3 battery pack vs the Bolt.
From my research, the Leaf is far behind, but the Bolt and Model 3 seem very similar almost to the point where I'd guess driving style and heater usage would make up the difference.
From my research, the Leaf is far behind, but the Bolt and Model 3 seem very similar almost to the point where I'd guess driving style and heater usage would make up the difference.
I was basing that concern mostly on bad reports of the Leaf battery, good reports of the Tesla battery (someone put together a data set of range loss vs mileage) and lack of data on the Bolt.
I haven't seen data yet on the Bolt. The other child comment suggests it's favorable, though. If new data shows the Bolt as having similar longevity to the Tesla then it's more of a contender for me, although I don't think highly of GM or their cars in general.
I haven't seen data yet on the Bolt. The other child comment suggests it's favorable, though. If new data shows the Bolt as having similar longevity to the Tesla then it's more of a contender for me, although I don't think highly of GM or their cars in general.
All of the reports I have heard about the battery longevity of GM's Volt are very encouraging. Very few large-scale battery problems. Some users with 400K miles. GM did a good job with battery management. Presumably they continue that with the Bolt.
I just want to add that the car doesn't totally lack hardware controls. There are some buttons and up/down sticks on the steering wheel.
I wish they'd make one with less premium content and minimal weight, priced and competitive with something like a GTI or Civic Si.
I'd also like a Civic Type R, but the wait-list on those is just as silly.
They're making great cars, but you have to wait for them.
I'd also like a Civic Type R, but the wait-list on those is just as silly.
They're making great cars, but you have to wait for them.
Although not professionally taken, those interior shots make it look terrible inside. The back seat looks like it might before a base model Dodge Dart or something. The dash looks like it is a vehicle driven by Robocop.
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Holy cow, I didn't realize they were missing production by so much.
Estimated 20k in December and ended up being just 1,500. May as well have said they'd make a million of them lol.
Estimated 20k in December and ended up being just 1,500. May as well have said they'd make a million of them lol.
"missing" is relative.
The original official (from Tesla/Musk) estimate for mass production (5k / week) of Tesla 3 was 2020.
In 2014 they moved that back by 2 years to early 2018.
In late 2017 they moved that forward by 6 months, to mid 2018.
So depending on which official estimate you're looking at, they are either 6 months late or 1.5 years ahead.
The original official (from Tesla/Musk) estimate for mass production (5k / week) of Tesla 3 was 2020.
In 2014 they moved that back by 2 years to early 2018.
In late 2017 they moved that forward by 6 months, to mid 2018.
So depending on which official estimate you're looking at, they are either 6 months late or 1.5 years ahead.
> The original official (from Tesla/Musk) estimate for mass production (5k / week) of Tesla 3 was 2020. In 2014 they moved that back by 2 years to early 2018. In late 2017 they moved that forward by 6 months, to mid 2018.
A friendly correction: funnily enough, the terms 'moving/pushing back' and ' moving/bringing forward' in time work in the opposite way to how non-native English speakers (such as myself) tend to understand and use them. The mental image I use to remember it has the event looking at me from the future, so bringing it 'forward' moves it closer to where I stand, in the present.
A friendly correction: funnily enough, the terms 'moving/pushing back' and ' moving/bringing forward' in time work in the opposite way to how non-native English speakers (such as myself) tend to understand and use them. The mental image I use to remember it has the event looking at me from the future, so bringing it 'forward' moves it closer to where I stand, in the present.
They probably won't reach 5,000 a week until in the second half of the year. They're at 1,000 a week right now.
Still, at least the car seems great. Being a year behind in production is not going to matter that much in the long-term, even if say 50,000 people cancel their orders. They'll probably keep the pipeline full for the next 3-4 years, while still steadily increasing production. I'm sure larger carmakers have had such delays for at least some of their car models, too.
Still, at least the car seems great. Being a year behind in production is not going to matter that much in the long-term, even if say 50,000 people cancel their orders. They'll probably keep the pipeline full for the next 3-4 years, while still steadily increasing production. I'm sure larger carmakers have had such delays for at least some of their car models, too.
A year in a production means by the time they are shipping cars, competitors are 1 year better. Nissan has increased range on the LEAF from 2012 84mi to 2018 151mi, and targeting 2018 225mi
Everyone knew it. Toyota, arguably the world champions of car production, scoffed at Musk's production optimism.
I thought everyone knew the general consensus with Musk's time frames were to always add 3 years to the promise? It's not bad but I can't remember an time estimate they have reached successfully with any of the companies?
iPhone of the cars?
Does it mean you will have to deal with some stupid or inferior solutions forever because Apple thinks it’s so perfect that nothing can be fixed?
Was the product hype ever a "hype"?
I thought it was the production hype that had investors worried.
I thought it was the production hype that had investors worried.
"Unless you’ve been living on Mars, you know the Model 3’s production launch has been a pickle "
And if you're living on Mars...your Roadster is on its way
And if you're living on Mars...your Roadster is on its way
That launch had some issues as well... You'll have to head over to the asteroid belt to pick it up.
* I don't want to be at the whim of some designer's ideas as to whether when I switch navigation screens my fuel gauge and current speed should shrink or move to a separate area for better design flow. I want them at the same location no matter what.
* I don't want the added complexity of the entire entertainment and navigation system working against the stability of the system. I don't want poor quality of some random widget crashing my only information display.
* After the Jeep hacking a few years ago where there wasn't enough separation between the internet connected devices and features essential to operation of the vehicle, many commenters here were saying anything without an air-gap between the internet and CAN-bus is a security problem.[1] That may or may not be extreme, but putting everything together like this means I really want to know what steps they've taken to segregate and secure high-importance data channels in the car. I really hope the answer isn't "we have software that is responsible for firewalling access." When it comes to something like this, I really want some physical and/or hardware level separation.
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9921557