Ask HN: Shortest route to $60K+ salary without college
I'm developing a project to support U.S. 25+ year olds in getting college educations. The first step is increasing their wages quickly to make their lives easier and free up time for study. My first guess is that the fastest route I can provide is Java through the Oracle's Java Programmer II certification and creating an original Android app for Google Play store. What would you suggest for a fast and reliable training program? (Apologies for fanning the rush-hurry-impatience fire, but I'm dealing with a need.)
48 comments
> My first guess is that the fastest route I can provide is Java through the Oracle's Java Programmer II certification and creating an original Android app for Google Play store.
Very unreasonable. You're expecting someone will be capable of making an app, making it usable (different skill than the programming part), and then you will be lucky enough to hit upon something people use a lot and are willing to pay for (also 2 different things).
I would say you can get to 60k a year a lot faster waiting tables or bar tending in many locals than a new person getting into development, let along trying to strike it rich on an app store. Many people claim the app store gold rush is over, with most people downloading only apps from major companies which don't even charge for theirs. I'm inclined to agree, outside of professional tooling apps, some games, although those are mostly in-app purchase and ad based (additional skills needed to gamify an app, and extremely high active user counts to pull 60k from simple ad inclusions).
Very unreasonable. You're expecting someone will be capable of making an app, making it usable (different skill than the programming part), and then you will be lucky enough to hit upon something people use a lot and are willing to pay for (also 2 different things).
I would say you can get to 60k a year a lot faster waiting tables or bar tending in many locals than a new person getting into development, let along trying to strike it rich on an app store. Many people claim the app store gold rush is over, with most people downloading only apps from major companies which don't even charge for theirs. I'm inclined to agree, outside of professional tooling apps, some games, although those are mostly in-app purchase and ad based (additional skills needed to gamify an app, and extremely high active user counts to pull 60k from simple ad inclusions).
Thanks. I wasn't clear. I'm not expecting the app to sell at all. It's just for demonstration during interviews -- something that shows that the coder can take a project from idea to completion. AND YES! Making a finished app usable is different from the programming. That's why I thought it would be a compelling credential. AND I appreciate the feedback about unreasonable. Last thing I want to do is mislead people.
Lineman training -> 15 weeks -> over 60k in most geographies with potential well over 100k
Huge shortage of talent.
Huge shortage of talent.
Thanks! I'll check it out. You mean working for the local PUD. Maybe there are even programs that hire and train?
I don't understand the Android app bit. If you're trying to free up time for studying, that implies passive income to me. If you think an Android app will generate $60k/year, you should probably recheck your assumptions.
Thanks. I wasn't clear. The app is supposed to serve as a credential for interviewing: "Look what I can do." Perhaps working on an open-source project would serve that purpose better, but that seems to me to involve less flexibility -- more coordinating with existing projects. That might just be my own background and inexperience in open source.
What subset of 25+ year olds do you want to get college educations? Anybody that can pick up Java and be productive with it doesn't need a college education, and anybody that can't is only going to play a pantomime of being educated.
See the recent Reddit thread for an answer to your question: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/9a830g/what_are_...
See the recent Reddit thread for an answer to your question: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/9a830g/what_are_...
Sort of. I agree that they do not need a college education to get a job, but they do need cultural anthropology to understand the society they are working in. Close reading to be able to deconstruct microaggressions. History and political theory to make sense of the current risks of fascism and to be sensible while considering democratic socialism. Psychology to inoculate themselves from depression and to help them raise happy and secure children. Etc. All of this college education can be obtained on your own. There are probably as few as 10 media sources that, combined, would get you there on your own.
And going to college is not the same as getting a college education. Half of Americans who have been awarded bachelor's degrees cannot figure out their change after buying two items, even with a pen and paper and unlimited time. Those folks have only an incomplete college education.
So I pretty much agree with you. Thanks!
AND YES! That is exactly the Reddit conversation I needed!
And going to college is not the same as getting a college education. Half of Americans who have been awarded bachelor's degrees cannot figure out their change after buying two items, even with a pen and paper and unlimited time. Those folks have only an incomplete college education.
So I pretty much agree with you. Thanks!
AND YES! That is exactly the Reddit conversation I needed!
Do they actually have any interest in programming? Development can be incredibly stressful and frustrating and without any personal passion or interest for it, I doubt someone could really stick to it for the long-term.
There are many jobs in tech that would have an easier learning curve IMHO (customer support, success, QA, growth hacking, even UI/UX design).
There are many jobs in tech that would have an easier learning curve IMHO (customer support, success, QA, growth hacking, even UI/UX design).
Good point
That took me ~3 years:
Year 1: Learn basic Python and Javascript.
Year 2: Get some freelance jobs building basic websites in my local area.
Year 3: Laid off from normal job, apply for hundreds of web development jobs and grind through interviews, using the interview process to sharpen my coding skills. Keep doing side projects to sharpen skills and add things to resume.
Year 4: Be a senior developer at a small company, make ~80k
Year 1: Learn basic Python and Javascript.
Year 2: Get some freelance jobs building basic websites in my local area.
Year 3: Laid off from normal job, apply for hundreds of web development jobs and grind through interviews, using the interview process to sharpen my coding skills. Keep doing side projects to sharpen skills and add things to resume.
Year 4: Be a senior developer at a small company, make ~80k
Thanks! Where you work now, are there any coders who were hired for Java without any ability in any other language?
I work at a small company, I don't really want to dox myself.
My advice (worth what you pay for it) is to focus on problem solving skills rather than language-specific skills. Enterprise companies might be concerned about Java skills, but in my experience smaller companies are much more concerned with your ability to solve real business problems with code, regardless of technology.
My advice (worth what you pay for it) is to focus on problem solving skills rather than language-specific skills. Enterprise companies might be concerned about Java skills, but in my experience smaller companies are much more concerned with your ability to solve real business problems with code, regardless of technology.
Are you trying to "increase their wage" through generation of income or through salary?
Through getting a job. As other folks here have pointed out, entry-level Java work may be way too taxing for what I'm hoping to do. Thanks for checking.
Others have pointed out that you're highly unlikely to make $60k a year off of an Android app. When I first read your question, I was going to write the same thing. But, now I read it again and I wonder if you mean:
1.) Get them certified in Java.
2.) Get them to build an app and put it in the store as a portfolio piece.
3.) Get them to apply for entry level full-time Java jobs.
If that's the case, I think it could work. My only concern though is that being an entry level developer is freakishly hard. I wonder how much mental capacity they'll have left to study if they've just spent a day debugging something crazy.
1.) Get them certified in Java.
2.) Get them to build an app and put it in the store as a portfolio piece.
3.) Get them to apply for entry level full-time Java jobs.
If that's the case, I think it could work. My only concern though is that being an entry level developer is freakishly hard. I wonder how much mental capacity they'll have left to study if they've just spent a day debugging something crazy.
Yes. You got my question. Got your point. Thanks for that perspective. Yes. My hope is that they'll come away from work feeling NOT wiped out -- up for an hour of studying.
"Shortest route to $60K+ salary without college"
Become a welder...
I'm sure there are a lot of other trades that'll achieve similar results.
Become a welder...
I'm sure there are a lot of other trades that'll achieve similar results.
Do you know off-hand how the timing goes on that? My impression is that the training would be several months. 1 month? This is not the world I know, so I'm ignorant. Do you need to apply and be admitted to a union?
Thanks very much!
I learned how to weld well enough for a job in ~3 months of community college night courses (Welding 101, 102, 110) three nights per week. They even offered job placement if I was interested in having a job after completing those courses. Books for my courses cost ~$200 total. Total cost (books and classes) was under $1000.
Trades are fantastic. You can't offshore them, you can't easily outsource them, everyone currently doing them will retire soon, and you'll usually have union protecting compensation, benefits, and working conditions. Can't recommend them enough.
Trades are fantastic. You can't offshore them, you can't easily outsource them, everyone currently doing them will retire soon, and you'll usually have union protecting compensation, benefits, and working conditions. Can't recommend them enough.
Cool! What state are you in? I think these things may vary from state to state.
Thanks very much!
Generally trade schools offer a 2 year program in which you take classes and work as an an understudy for alternating periods. e.g. 6 weeks classes, 6 weeks of work. In my state, starting hourly is around $18-20 with increases until you 'graduate' then you work as an apprentice and move up the ranks.
The wages both in school and after are contingent on the trade and state.
2 years is pretty standard, but you get paid while you learn instead of paying for education.
The wages both in school and after are contingent on the trade and state.
2 years is pretty standard, but you get paid while you learn instead of paying for education.
Got it. Thanks!
From my experience if one is in the programming just for the money - one will never make a lot of money as a programmer, only hatred and despair awaits because one will hate the profession.
You are doing a disservice to those 25+ year olds most likely by wasting their time.
If, however those people are interested in programming - learning front-end is the quickest way to get good salary because it does not require any CS knowledge. Doing something like Java/.NET will take some time to learn properly.
I've personally seen a guy in his 30ties who had interest in front-end development become mid-level Angular/React developer in a matter of 3 years. Obviously he has decent salary as you'd expect from mid-level developer.
You are doing a disservice to those 25+ year olds most likely by wasting their time.
If, however those people are interested in programming - learning front-end is the quickest way to get good salary because it does not require any CS knowledge. Doing something like Java/.NET will take some time to learn properly.
I've personally seen a guy in his 30ties who had interest in front-end development become mid-level Angular/React developer in a matter of 3 years. Obviously he has decent salary as you'd expect from mid-level developer.
I'm not going to get into whether frontend development needs as much CS knowledge as backend (on the whole, because some backend is actually quite simple and requires 0 CS knowledge).
What I will say is that even if frontend takes 0 CS knowledge , which is a more common sentiment than that about backend, you are severely underestimating the other skills required, which some people are not cut out for, just as some are not cut out for hard core CS.
What I will say is that even if frontend takes 0 CS knowledge , which is a more common sentiment than that about backend, you are severely underestimating the other skills required, which some people are not cut out for, just as some are not cut out for hard core CS.
Yes. I bumped into one article that suggested that React had the largest gap between demand and supply.
What is the second step?
Thanks for asking. This is VERY MUCH still in development. I don't have step 1 figured out. Tentatively, step 3 would be increasing skills with Javascript. Current thoughts abuot step 2 is a course organized around the topic of working in America. Topics include: Code switching; Conflict resolution & negotiations without drama; Work estimation & reliability; Employment law; Morale
sales is so underrated and despised but nevertheless...
Entry level sales positions that I have bumped into have paid only slightly over minimum wage. And I appreciate the suggestion. I'll check locally. Thanks!
The workflow goes as such: you get an entry level sales position of the retail or cold calling variety. You become the best person on the floor. There you go, now you can sell anything, get hired at a high commission position selling software, ad space, furniture, things with high price tags.
Sales jobs are as taxing as entry-level Java jobs and not much more likely to leave someone capable of going to school in their off hours (especially since they tend to require some travel or entertainment on your own time). However, presumably you also wish to help extroverts, who are unlikely to want to spend hours writing "public static" in front of random character strings every single day.
Sales jobs are as taxing as entry-level Java jobs and not much more likely to leave someone capable of going to school in their off hours (especially since they tend to require some travel or entertainment on your own time). However, presumably you also wish to help extroverts, who are unlikely to want to spend hours writing "public static" in front of random character strings every single day.
About extroverts: good question. I'll have to think about it. Thanks
Lambda School
Yes, or Ada. Ada currently takes something like less than 10% of their applicants. I don't know about Lambda. What I'm trying to get together is in that area
Easy. The trades.
> My first guess is that the fastest route I can provide is Java through the Oracle's Java Programmer II certification and creating an original Android app for Google Play store.
Oh great, flooding the already low quality programming industry with even more "in it for a quick buck and I don't really care about quality" programmers?
Oh great, flooding the already low quality programming industry with even more "in it for a quick buck and I don't really care about quality" programmers?
As I was crafting this question, I included "(Apologies for fanning the flames of get-rich-quick/impatience/tiny-training-big-promises.)" To shorten it, I took that out. I love Norvig's "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years" http://norvig.com/21-days.html.
I doubt I'll be able to do this with enough people to have any noticeable impact on the programming world. I'm not seeing much in the way of scaling (or monetization) anytime soon.
Oracle's Java SE certification exams are actually quite hard.
Passing an exam means you're a good exam taker, not a good programmer.
Nah, this exam actually means you have an abnormal understanding of Java and a good understanding of how OOP works. It also means you can read and understand code fast. It does not mean you are a good team player or have experience in building things. To say that the code in the exams are not clean code is an understatement though. The questions usually grab all clean code practices by the neck and murder it violently then asks questions about the output. So there's that.
True. And and exam does not mean you'll be able to get past the interview questions. But does the Java cert get you the interview?
Yes. I've heard that. I'm guessing that hiring managers/HR is aware of that, and that the qualification makes a difference. Does that seem right?
I'm aware because I tried the exams. I also happen to sometimes interview people and for me a fresh certificate of this exam means I'm immediately satisfied with the basic programming skills of that person and can tackle other topics. But I don't know how common this knowledge is among recruiters.
Thanks!