The psychological importance of wasting time(qz.com)
qz.com
The psychological importance of wasting time
https://qz.com/970924/the-psychological-importance-of-wasting-time/
86 comments
Yes, I agree with you 100%.
In my case I am a freelancer, so I have strict deadlines and clients might expect me to work the full 8 hours or more. Hell, I've even been asked to work over the weekends and get my hourly rate adjusted accordingly.
I always decline, my flow state does not last more than 5 hours per day with plenty of lazying around on weekends, and working more than that would mean spreading it to a mediocre productivity.
Deadlines are met, and clients are happy (as far as I know).
Unless we are underachievers, I suspect many are in the same boat and would be as productive with 20% fewer hours.
In my case I am a freelancer, so I have strict deadlines and clients might expect me to work the full 8 hours or more. Hell, I've even been asked to work over the weekends and get my hourly rate adjusted accordingly.
I always decline, my flow state does not last more than 5 hours per day with plenty of lazying around on weekends, and working more than that would mean spreading it to a mediocre productivity.
Deadlines are met, and clients are happy (as far as I know).
Unless we are underachievers, I suspect many are in the same boat and would be as productive with 20% fewer hours.
Do you charge your clients by the hour or another way?
I feel like I could be just as productive with fewer hours but there is somewhat of a financial conflict when being paid by the hour.
I feel like I could be just as productive with fewer hours but there is somewhat of a financial conflict when being paid by the hour.
By the hour. I know I should bill by the day or week, but I think then clients will expect me to work a full working day, i.e. 8 hours.
This way, I don't feel like I'm ripping my clients off if I'm working only 2 hours today, or diluting my rate too much if I manage to work 12 hours tomorrow. I really enjoy this freedom.
This way, I don't feel like I'm ripping my clients off if I'm working only 2 hours today, or diluting my rate too much if I manage to work 12 hours tomorrow. I really enjoy this freedom.
Maybe it's like that for you but if you can charge per project with a deadline , it would give you a good flexibility even while running multiple clients in parallel which is what I do.
Which doesn't feel like ripping off by either side even if you take a whole day off if you keep the deadline accordingly.
Which doesn't feel like ripping off by either side even if you take a whole day off if you keep the deadline accordingly.
How do you deal with changing specs? That's what scares me about fixed prices. Both of my longest freelance jobs (1+ years) were supposed to be a couple months worth of work.
I think the right way is to write the specs down clearly in the initial contract, but since most projects seem to go way past their expiration date, it would entail spending a non-trivial amount of time of continuously updating and agreeing on the new contracts.
Anyway, I often have a couple active project at a time, but no more than that because it would make scheduling my time a nightmare. And context switching halfway through the day takes a considerable amount of mental energy.
I think the right way is to write the specs down clearly in the initial contract, but since most projects seem to go way past their expiration date, it would entail spending a non-trivial amount of time of continuously updating and agreeing on the new contracts.
Anyway, I often have a couple active project at a time, but no more than that because it would make scheduling my time a nightmare. And context switching halfway through the day takes a considerable amount of mental energy.
I only work against smaller companies who tend to be frank and flexible with similar ages of 30 or so.
Initially, both sides agree in what to deliver (no concrete spec but we talk until we know what needs built) at what price and that is usually enough to ask for more if other side tells me something new or if I'm getting a decent deal for monthly charges after going production, then I tend not to bother much about little extra additions.
I always ask questions as I encounter them to be sure that I'm not developing against their intention and let them see the progress continously too.
I even question whether what they want is valid or not and provide the reasoning in plain language without much technical terms why I'm complaining about it.
The only problem would be I can be slightly behind schedule often on everyone by managing 4+ clients in parallel.
Task switching seems crazy but I guess I'm trying to free up brain memory as much as I can to speed it up by not caring anything unnecessary in life (Have no TV, don't care about personally uninteresting stuff even if popular around, work from home where it's quiet etc)
Initially, both sides agree in what to deliver (no concrete spec but we talk until we know what needs built) at what price and that is usually enough to ask for more if other side tells me something new or if I'm getting a decent deal for monthly charges after going production, then I tend not to bother much about little extra additions.
I always ask questions as I encounter them to be sure that I'm not developing against their intention and let them see the progress continously too.
I even question whether what they want is valid or not and provide the reasoning in plain language without much technical terms why I'm complaining about it.
The only problem would be I can be slightly behind schedule often on everyone by managing 4+ clients in parallel.
Task switching seems crazy but I guess I'm trying to free up brain memory as much as I can to speed it up by not caring anything unnecessary in life (Have no TV, don't care about personally uninteresting stuff even if popular around, work from home where it's quiet etc)
>nothing Hacker News would care about in the million and billion scheme, but it pays my mortgage and gives me a comfortable life
Man! this is precisely what I care about not one more story about billion dollar unicorn. Would Love to hear your story sometime.
Man! this is precisely what I care about not one more story about billion dollar unicorn. Would Love to hear your story sometime.
I hope he replies! But in the meantime you can read https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses and find plenty of models to copy and leverage into your own thing. GL!
Trust me, I don't mean the million and billion line as a dig at Hacker News, I think as a business owner, the insight and advice in this community is incredible, even for small business owners that it may not necessarily relate too all the time. I've lurked in this community for years reading articles and absorbing advice and only recently started commenting.
I work for myself with short term help hired in as needed when orders require, typically seasonal. I build customized conceal carry gun holsters for the CCW market nationally and sell internationally as well.
It's a very small business, but I worked to become a niche expert in my part of the field with my product, and I largely do everything on my own, website and marketing work, product development, research, customer support, follow up and feedback, customized manufacturing software using barcoding and kitting parts, customized shipping software, CAD, etc. My hobby is software and machine tools, it's how I relax and have fun, and it's helped my business keep overhead low and productivity up while being able to tweak things as I notice areas needing improvement.
Admittedly it's not the most efficient way of doing things compared to how I could do it with a huge team of people and lots of outside investment and expert help, but it keeps my operating overhead very minimal(!), my stress level low(!!), time available for family high(!!!), and I learned a long time ago as a small business owner that a dollar not spent is a dollar you get to keep for yourself to do things you enjoy, or choose to invest.
Your hourly rate as a business owner isn't just the total revenue coming in, you have to constantly think of expenses going out at all times. Earning $6,000 to keep $200 can be very stressful for a small business owner with an inconsistent market and the normal fluctuations that happen. Some very large businesses work on this model and scale it into the billions to really make it work, but I can't do that. I want to earn several hundred per day and keep several hundred per day (after fixed costs, taxes, etc.) I need to feed my family, keep the lights on, and save for the rainy day fund, so it's my priority.
It boiled down for me that I had a few specific requirements for myself and my business, which helped to shape my business that others in the market have not done, and as a result I know other companies eat my lunch when it comes to segments of the market, but I'm aware of these things and it was a conscious choice. I could have been as successful as some of these companies, but I personally know and talk to many of my colleagues in this position in the market and they've sacrificed more than I was comfortable with, both with health and family, most are divorced it seems.
Ultimately, the business has to work for your personal goals. If you want the billion exit, you will obviously engineer your life and the business in that direction in regards to investing and procedures, but I didn't want that game, I'm trying to make a living and not let work consume me. It's a really hard balance.
I work for myself with short term help hired in as needed when orders require, typically seasonal. I build customized conceal carry gun holsters for the CCW market nationally and sell internationally as well.
It's a very small business, but I worked to become a niche expert in my part of the field with my product, and I largely do everything on my own, website and marketing work, product development, research, customer support, follow up and feedback, customized manufacturing software using barcoding and kitting parts, customized shipping software, CAD, etc. My hobby is software and machine tools, it's how I relax and have fun, and it's helped my business keep overhead low and productivity up while being able to tweak things as I notice areas needing improvement.
Admittedly it's not the most efficient way of doing things compared to how I could do it with a huge team of people and lots of outside investment and expert help, but it keeps my operating overhead very minimal(!), my stress level low(!!), time available for family high(!!!), and I learned a long time ago as a small business owner that a dollar not spent is a dollar you get to keep for yourself to do things you enjoy, or choose to invest.
Your hourly rate as a business owner isn't just the total revenue coming in, you have to constantly think of expenses going out at all times. Earning $6,000 to keep $200 can be very stressful for a small business owner with an inconsistent market and the normal fluctuations that happen. Some very large businesses work on this model and scale it into the billions to really make it work, but I can't do that. I want to earn several hundred per day and keep several hundred per day (after fixed costs, taxes, etc.) I need to feed my family, keep the lights on, and save for the rainy day fund, so it's my priority.
It boiled down for me that I had a few specific requirements for myself and my business, which helped to shape my business that others in the market have not done, and as a result I know other companies eat my lunch when it comes to segments of the market, but I'm aware of these things and it was a conscious choice. I could have been as successful as some of these companies, but I personally know and talk to many of my colleagues in this position in the market and they've sacrificed more than I was comfortable with, both with health and family, most are divorced it seems.
Ultimately, the business has to work for your personal goals. If you want the billion exit, you will obviously engineer your life and the business in that direction in regards to investing and procedures, but I didn't want that game, I'm trying to make a living and not let work consume me. It's a really hard balance.
I think the real test is if you're willing to let your employees adopt the same sort of schedule. I've yet to find an employer who is comfortable with this sort of schedule (I only expect 4-5 productive hours in the day) even if some enlightened managers will recognize that reality privately.
Would you allow high-value employees to put in high-quality 4 hour workdays? Why or why not?
Would you allow high-value employees to put in high-quality 4 hour workdays? Why or why not?
This is an important point. I would personally allow it, because I believe the fundamental premise to be true. In my experience, too much time in the "standard work day" is wasted on looking like you're working, at all levels of the hierarchy of most businesses.
OTOH, I would demand some sort of measurable feedback and/or self evaluation from employees to determine which schedule works best for them.
Maybe that's just too much overhead for a larger team, though. Perhaps at a certain point in size, the productivity gains VS overhead of "managing" more flexible schedules, become minimal.
OTOH, I would demand some sort of measurable feedback and/or self evaluation from employees to determine which schedule works best for them.
Maybe that's just too much overhead for a larger team, though. Perhaps at a certain point in size, the productivity gains VS overhead of "managing" more flexible schedules, become minimal.
I don't think this works, because, frankly, in a team, the usually is a guy who picks up other people's slack and, because he's that good, he really works 8h of the day. The bigger the company, the more true this is because it grings up inefficiencies that need to be filled with personell time.
It's person dependent in my experience. Some people NEED structure in their day and need the 8 hours or 10 hours or however many you require for the work. Most don't have a business owners mindset and just want to stay busy all day and clock out.
I know I can work whenever, but most people have been conditioned to put in hours through a lifetime of previous employment and it's extremely difficult to break the habit once it's ingrained.
I know I've tried giving many employees lots of runway, but in my experience, hourly and even piece work (commission) employees can find a way to make a 1 hour task fill the 8 hours instead of efficiently working out of it and moving on if the incentives aren't there to break them of it. Others will abuse it and not get the work done.
It can be frustrating.
I know I can work whenever, but most people have been conditioned to put in hours through a lifetime of previous employment and it's extremely difficult to break the habit once it's ingrained.
I know I've tried giving many employees lots of runway, but in my experience, hourly and even piece work (commission) employees can find a way to make a 1 hour task fill the 8 hours instead of efficiently working out of it and moving on if the incentives aren't there to break them of it. Others will abuse it and not get the work done.
It can be frustrating.
Working at a place that focuses on billable hours and the majority of work is time and materials, the answer speaks for itself.
This is why even at my normal 9-6 type job, I always go out to eat for lunch. I always feel more refreshed and energized after I spend an hour away from my tasks.
It's harder to follow this advice when you're self-employed—in the bootstrapped, struggle-with-bills, glorified one-man-show sense, not the funded-with-plenty-of-runway sense. In addition to the guilt and social pressure to "look busy", there's the knowledge that making rent really is tied to how much you work. That leaves one feeling not only guilty for doing not-work in the abstract, diffuse sense related to societal messaging, but indeed, it feels financially irresponsible and often financially deleterious.
It's not that grinding away at the PC makes one any more productive than folk who follow the article's advice. It's just an even bigger weight on one's shoulders. Instead of feeling like you owe society, your coworkers or your employer something, you think about owing people paychecks that don't bounce and owing the bank account balances that aren't negative.
Seeing past that and becoming aware that taking a walk now and again won't change any of that in the big picture, because the big picture depends on the more cosmological success or failure of your business model to grow/scale, is hard when life is that kind of constant struggle. And then you constantly feel like a moral failure—I mean a real piece of shit, not just a slacker getting away with slacking—when you binge-watch something on Netflix or cruise HN or YouTube because you're constantly burned out.
It's not that grinding away at the PC makes one any more productive than folk who follow the article's advice. It's just an even bigger weight on one's shoulders. Instead of feeling like you owe society, your coworkers or your employer something, you think about owing people paychecks that don't bounce and owing the bank account balances that aren't negative.
Seeing past that and becoming aware that taking a walk now and again won't change any of that in the big picture, because the big picture depends on the more cosmological success or failure of your business model to grow/scale, is hard when life is that kind of constant struggle. And then you constantly feel like a moral failure—I mean a real piece of shit, not just a slacker getting away with slacking—when you binge-watch something on Netflix or cruise HN or YouTube because you're constantly burned out.
I thought so too. Ego plays a huge part in this when it comes to business. Working less can help you with working more meaningfully in a small business in my own personal experience. For others it may not.
The thing that helped me with my small business, is the age old wisdom, the less I spent, the less I had to earn for the business and the more I could keep for myself. Instead of burning money on things that didn't help the business, or provided very small benefit financially but added more hours to grind out, I killed those things off and buried them.
Changed my life with owning a small business for myself. It went from spending money like it was going out of style to gain a few more on top, working insane hours everyday, literally almost killing myself with neglect to my health and sleep, to enjoyment again and restoring my health.
Frankly, some businesses and ideas won't scale, no matter how hard you try, and they won't exit for millions or billions at an IPO, but it doesn't make them failures if they give you the ability to provide for your home and find time to do other things that might down the road.
Just my two cents. I've been in your shoes as have most here. Starting a business is one of the most insane experiences I think anyone can go through.
The thing that helped me with my small business, is the age old wisdom, the less I spent, the less I had to earn for the business and the more I could keep for myself. Instead of burning money on things that didn't help the business, or provided very small benefit financially but added more hours to grind out, I killed those things off and buried them.
Changed my life with owning a small business for myself. It went from spending money like it was going out of style to gain a few more on top, working insane hours everyday, literally almost killing myself with neglect to my health and sleep, to enjoyment again and restoring my health.
Frankly, some businesses and ideas won't scale, no matter how hard you try, and they won't exit for millions or billions at an IPO, but it doesn't make them failures if they give you the ability to provide for your home and find time to do other things that might down the road.
Just my two cents. I've been in your shoes as have most here. Starting a business is one of the most insane experiences I think anyone can go through.
Frankly, some businesses and ideas won't scale, no matter how hard you try, and they won't exit for millions or billions at an IPO, but it doesn't make them failures if they give you the ability to provide for your home and find time to do other things that might down the road.
Oh, I agree with that. My business aspirations aren't much higher. But sometimes even getting to that point is a challenge. As you say, high personal or business expenses can be a major reason for that.
Oh, I agree with that. My business aspirations aren't much higher. But sometimes even getting to that point is a challenge. As you say, high personal or business expenses can be a major reason for that.
I struggle with this a lot. It's like I have to make appearances for me. Forget pointy haired bosses and managers who like to see you work. Nothing is harder on yourself than yourself. You have a very clear insight into just how much you procrastinate and slack off and everything feels like too much.
This of course does not lead to more productivity. It leads to a lot of "productivity" where you work late into the night or early into morning, but know a surprising lot about all the latest memes and goings on du jour of the internet.
What I found works for me is exercise. Can't convince yourself that you can sit still and stare at the ceiling for an hour? Going for a run has the same effect and it feels productive.
Added bonus: you don't look idle to others either. Saying "I wanna read for an hour" is often met with "Ok but can you do the dishes and the laundry while you're not doing anything anyway?". Going for a run or hopping to the gym is met with "Ok."
Both from your subconscious and the people around you.
This of course does not lead to more productivity. It leads to a lot of "productivity" where you work late into the night or early into morning, but know a surprising lot about all the latest memes and goings on du jour of the internet.
What I found works for me is exercise. Can't convince yourself that you can sit still and stare at the ceiling for an hour? Going for a run has the same effect and it feels productive.
Added bonus: you don't look idle to others either. Saying "I wanna read for an hour" is often met with "Ok but can you do the dishes and the laundry while you're not doing anything anyway?". Going for a run or hopping to the gym is met with "Ok."
Both from your subconscious and the people around you.
I have taught myself to not feel bad about "off days". Rather than 5 days on, 2 days off like structured employment, if I "go with the flow" my body/mind/voice might demand after say 15 days on, maybe 3-5 days off. I'll grant that. As soon as recharged, whatever down-time/"off" stuff I was into becomes boring and the work where I left off lures me back in. But you'll have to allow such off time. Having one right now, hence I'm posting here.
As for "procrastination" through "work-days", I don't do that much, maybe an hour of "random rubbish" a day tops. Grabbing lunch is a nice short break; eating it, another; 10 minutes of weights, another; showering, (h)eating dinner, filling/emptying dishwasher.. it all adds up to just the right amount & length of brief brain breaks "aerating" the work day/routine.
The feeling that's worse than any sort of misguided guilt about off time is when you did power through some 12-15 hours and reflect back on & summarize what exactly one has managed to produce net --- it often feels like disturbingly little for the time, given all the high-level tooling, frameworks, helper libs and the fast hardware & internet we all enjoy today.
As for "procrastination" through "work-days", I don't do that much, maybe an hour of "random rubbish" a day tops. Grabbing lunch is a nice short break; eating it, another; 10 minutes of weights, another; showering, (h)eating dinner, filling/emptying dishwasher.. it all adds up to just the right amount & length of brief brain breaks "aerating" the work day/routine.
The feeling that's worse than any sort of misguided guilt about off time is when you did power through some 12-15 hours and reflect back on & summarize what exactly one has managed to produce net --- it often feels like disturbingly little for the time, given all the high-level tooling, frameworks, helper libs and the fast hardware & internet we all enjoy today.
The feeling that's worse than any sort of misguided guilt about off time is when you did power through some 12-15 hours and reflect back on & summarize what exactly one has managed to produce net --- it often feels like disturbingly little for the time
Definitely. Especially when coming by 12-15 hours is incredibly difficult, for any number of reasons. I often come away with the feeling that for having run this kind of marathon—and that's what it feels like nowadays—I should have managed like a week's worth of work, especially considering, as you say, all the perceived efficiency gains.
But modern high-level tooling and frameworks have their drawbacks, too. One spends an inordinate amount of time figuring out how to do things "the frameworky way". I understand the upsides, of course, but it has still led to a profound frustration with the modern-day practice of programming. Back when I wrote C, I may have had to write 10x as much code, but at least I was churning out lines of code perceptibly. With a small standard library, there wasn't that much to stop and look up. It was an exercise full of "creative flow". Nowadays, I have 27 browser tabs and 5 API references open any time I need to actually do anything, and that in itself can be a major psychological blocker.
Definitely. Especially when coming by 12-15 hours is incredibly difficult, for any number of reasons. I often come away with the feeling that for having run this kind of marathon—and that's what it feels like nowadays—I should have managed like a week's worth of work, especially considering, as you say, all the perceived efficiency gains.
But modern high-level tooling and frameworks have their drawbacks, too. One spends an inordinate amount of time figuring out how to do things "the frameworky way". I understand the upsides, of course, but it has still led to a profound frustration with the modern-day practice of programming. Back when I wrote C, I may have had to write 10x as much code, but at least I was churning out lines of code perceptibly. With a small standard library, there wasn't that much to stop and look up. It was an exercise full of "creative flow". Nowadays, I have 27 browser tabs and 5 API references open any time I need to actually do anything, and that in itself can be a major psychological blocker.
Yes I usually try to stick to the current language's standard library as much as possible --- and then for DB or other interop/protocols not already in there, there's typically the canonical mature library or binding in place. Other stuff where libs/modules may exist, I often prefer attacking the small sub-set actually required myself manually. This may not always work out and one cannot always be sure beforehand how well it'll work out, but especially for the things where you only need 10% of the actual functionality and some framework's/lib's focus is mostly on "the other 90%" (in terms of perf / stability / bug-free-ness), on balance I end up with "more LoC written & to maintain but less time spent now and going forward". This approach can definitely fall flat on its face occasionally when just by writing the 10% you thought you needed, you only at the end slowly realize the rest will need to be pulled in after all. That blows. Not a very common occurrence imho tho
For me, it's about having the "courage" to go get a long sleep. I'm not good at it, so my sleeping becomes so random I start sleeping at any time of day but usually wakes up in about 4 hours out of pressure (or by phone call) and perhaps does that in a certain cycle to at least keep the total sleeping time enough to keep going.
This "If I do more through the night, then I can impress the client a bit more as a work done today" feeling is pretty shortsighted but it kind of still drags me to late night work especially when I'm behind schedule.
But sometimes when I feel burned out, I take a break thinking I have the right to kill anyone who interrupts my time, even if it lasts for a day.
This "If I do more through the night, then I can impress the client a bit more as a work done today" feeling is pretty shortsighted but it kind of still drags me to late night work especially when I'm behind schedule.
But sometimes when I feel burned out, I take a break thinking I have the right to kill anyone who interrupts my time, even if it lasts for a day.
I get you, but you will be more useful to people who depend on you if you are rested.
I found out about rest when I started to track my worked time exactly. I like to track things and wanted to see how much exactly each specific activity takes. I would write down how much I am actually really working and what exactly I am doing e.g. staring at monitor with code while daydreaming does not count as coding. Chatting with colleague does not count etc.
Result was that I could see drop in what I produce after working a lot. Sometimes it is just a question of doing experiment on yourself.
I found out about rest when I started to track my worked time exactly. I like to track things and wanted to see how much exactly each specific activity takes. I would write down how much I am actually really working and what exactly I am doing e.g. staring at monitor with code while daydreaming does not count as coding. Chatting with colleague does not count etc.
Result was that I could see drop in what I produce after working a lot. Sometimes it is just a question of doing experiment on yourself.
This is one of the main reasons I've stopped taking lunch at my desk. I cheat a bit, eat my lunch right before my long break while I'm getting to a stopping point, then put on my headphones, leave my desk, and wander around our campus for an hour on foot.
The music relaxes me and doesn't let me focus on any surrounding snippets of conversation, and I just let my mind wander along with my feet as I traverse our campus with no particular destination. (Our "office building" was originally an old mall, so it's huge and spacious.) This is surprisingly refreshing, and I usually find that I arrive at my desk energized mentally by the end of the hour.
The music relaxes me and doesn't let me focus on any surrounding snippets of conversation, and I just let my mind wander along with my feet as I traverse our campus with no particular destination. (Our "office building" was originally an old mall, so it's huge and spacious.) This is surprisingly refreshing, and I usually find that I arrive at my desk energized mentally by the end of the hour.
I've always found the habit of eating at one's desk almost insulting.
It is not about the annoyances that at-the-desk-eaters create for their immediate surroundings. Eating creates noise and smell pollution. I don't want to smell your tacos, and I don't want to hear the scratching of a spoon in an empty joghurt cup.
It is also not the thought about hygienic implications. Lots of the food consumed at desks is finger food. I've grown up getting taught to wash hands before eating and to use knife and spoon. The thought that someone changes between food and operating the keyboard, a piece that has been proven to be dirtier than toilet seats, is unsettling.
No, it is the fact that the person sees eating as a mindless task that can be done _while working_ that bothers me most. As if it was filling up gas at the pump. No, eating to me has two dimensions that these cultureless creatures spurn: that food is, next to breathing and sleeping, one of the most important things that keep you alive. You liteeally are what you eat. Your body tells you very directly what it needs and how much. But you got to listen to it while you're eating. It is already a series of sensations that require being mindful. Just think of the texture, smell, and taste of a leaf of basil. Of olive oil. Of fresh fish. Wonderful.
The other side is that eating is a social endeavour. It is an opportunity to bond and build empathy. It's an opportunity to relax and get good ideas as a team. Also to exchange information. I would say those of our team that go out for lunch regularly are more successful than the ones who don't.
So, I think eating at the desk while working is wrong in many dimensions. Taking a walk is definitely a good idea, too.
It is not about the annoyances that at-the-desk-eaters create for their immediate surroundings. Eating creates noise and smell pollution. I don't want to smell your tacos, and I don't want to hear the scratching of a spoon in an empty joghurt cup.
It is also not the thought about hygienic implications. Lots of the food consumed at desks is finger food. I've grown up getting taught to wash hands before eating and to use knife and spoon. The thought that someone changes between food and operating the keyboard, a piece that has been proven to be dirtier than toilet seats, is unsettling.
No, it is the fact that the person sees eating as a mindless task that can be done _while working_ that bothers me most. As if it was filling up gas at the pump. No, eating to me has two dimensions that these cultureless creatures spurn: that food is, next to breathing and sleeping, one of the most important things that keep you alive. You liteeally are what you eat. Your body tells you very directly what it needs and how much. But you got to listen to it while you're eating. It is already a series of sensations that require being mindful. Just think of the texture, smell, and taste of a leaf of basil. Of olive oil. Of fresh fish. Wonderful.
The other side is that eating is a social endeavour. It is an opportunity to bond and build empathy. It's an opportunity to relax and get good ideas as a team. Also to exchange information. I would say those of our team that go out for lunch regularly are more successful than the ones who don't.
So, I think eating at the desk while working is wrong in many dimensions. Taking a walk is definitely a good idea, too.
> I don't want to hear the scratching of a spoon in an empty joghurt cup
Well sheesh where did you grow up, Silenceville? Peaceful Springs? ;)
> Your body tells you very directly what it needs and how much.
True in the case of severe deficiencies. Otherwise it'll at best signal "give me all the essential aminos and" (depending on mitochondrial preference / adaptation) "fatty acids / glucose you have, in whatever hopefully digestable format".. =)
> But you got to listen to it while you're eating. It is already a series of sensations that require being mindful. Just think of the texture, smell, and taste of a leaf of basil. Of olive oil.
All these "sensations" are pure acculturation. The only signal I get from "a leaf of basil" (any leaf, really) or any vegetable oil is rejection. We're not born with any taste, just with a sucking reflex, the rest is shaped by our moms and the others around us. You can of course enjoy this situation mindfully and perceptably, more power to you! =)
Well sheesh where did you grow up, Silenceville? Peaceful Springs? ;)
> Your body tells you very directly what it needs and how much.
True in the case of severe deficiencies. Otherwise it'll at best signal "give me all the essential aminos and" (depending on mitochondrial preference / adaptation) "fatty acids / glucose you have, in whatever hopefully digestable format".. =)
> But you got to listen to it while you're eating. It is already a series of sensations that require being mindful. Just think of the texture, smell, and taste of a leaf of basil. Of olive oil.
All these "sensations" are pure acculturation. The only signal I get from "a leaf of basil" (any leaf, really) or any vegetable oil is rejection. We're not born with any taste, just with a sucking reflex, the rest is shaped by our moms and the others around us. You can of course enjoy this situation mindfully and perceptably, more power to you! =)
> I don't want to hear the scratching of a spoon in an empty joghurt cup
This sort of thing is rage inducing in some folks - there is a neurological thing that makes folks become angry at certain sounds, to the point of wearing earplugs at dinner. Eating is a common trigger sound, as is yawning and other such sounds.
This sort of thing is rage inducing in some folks - there is a neurological thing that makes folks become angry at certain sounds, to the point of wearing earplugs at dinner. Eating is a common trigger sound, as is yawning and other such sounds.
I can't stand the sounds of other people eating when I'm not.
I suspect it's something my mother induced in me. She had the same problem if anyone else at the table, was eating with their mouth open, or otherwise noisily. It doesn't bother me at the dinner table or when I'm eating. But in any other context, any crunching/chewing/sucking noise just grabs my full attention and disgusts me.
I suspect it's something my mother induced in me. She had the same problem if anyone else at the table, was eating with their mouth open, or otherwise noisily. It doesn't bother me at the dinner table or when I'm eating. But in any other context, any crunching/chewing/sucking noise just grabs my full attention and disgusts me.
I do go with my people to the supermarket and then eat later at my desk...which is in an proper office room. With doors and stuff.
I mean, sure there are people who did not grew up with proper hygiene education and such but, please, this is not everyone. I want my keyboard clean because I work on it. I know when to wash my hands. I'm not 5.
And yes, it's a social thing too. I worked for several companies in Germany in almost all of them the dining room at 12 was a horrible gossip melting point. To me it's social pressure. I'm not even hungry at 12. I also don't want to have my break being filled with the latest office gossip. It's terrible...
So as you see. Sometimes it's just a different perspective and probably it's not the same everywhere.
I mean, sure there are people who did not grew up with proper hygiene education and such but, please, this is not everyone. I want my keyboard clean because I work on it. I know when to wash my hands. I'm not 5.
And yes, it's a social thing too. I worked for several companies in Germany in almost all of them the dining room at 12 was a horrible gossip melting point. To me it's social pressure. I'm not even hungry at 12. I also don't want to have my break being filled with the latest office gossip. It's terrible...
So as you see. Sometimes it's just a different perspective and probably it's not the same everywhere.
I agree on all points except the part where you say eating is a social endeavour. It can be a social activity or not. There is no particular reason eating should be done in the company of others.
Anecdata: I'm all for social breakfast and dinner. But I prefer to eat lunch by myself, maybe with a good book. In this way lunch is a pause where I can slow down and recenter for the afternoon. And I don't think anything is wrong with that.
Neither of these things bug me. If people want socialize that's great. If people want to to be alone. That's also great. But I wish everyone would go to a dedicated eating area, such as a lunch room, so we don't create a culture of peer preasaure where everyone has to eat lunch at their desk in 5 minutes.
> The other side is that eating is a social endeavour.
For some perhaps.
I've always preferred eating alone and undisturbed.
Also, the last thing I want to be doing during my lunch is bouncing ideas off my team. That's work, and I do not get paid to work during my lunch, so I will do anything remotely related to work during my lunch.
It's my time, so I spend it eating alone, catching up on news or reading a book.
For some perhaps.
I've always preferred eating alone and undisturbed.
Also, the last thing I want to be doing during my lunch is bouncing ideas off my team. That's work, and I do not get paid to work during my lunch, so I will do anything remotely related to work during my lunch.
It's my time, so I spend it eating alone, catching up on news or reading a book.
My office is in front of the Seine in Paris. When it's sunny and warm, I go on the banks of the river. There are some trees that provide a comfortable shade, I chose a bench and I usually stay there for one or two hours, semi-sleeping.
I dont think it increases my productivity one bit, but I love it and I think it's precisely because I am already good and productive at what I do that I can enjoy these sort of relaxing moments.
I dont think it increases my productivity one bit, but I love it and I think it's precisely because I am already good and productive at what I do that I can enjoy these sort of relaxing moments.
My office is very near Washington Square Park in NYC. When the weather is warm there's almost always a band playing jazz in the park at lunchtime. As often as possible I'll bring a sandwich to the park and just enjoy the moment there, watching people walk by, listening to the music, staring up at the big trees swaying overhead.
Like you, I usually find myself refreshed afterwards, and often wind up walking back to the office excited to tackle something that I'd been dreading when I arrived in the morning.
Like you, I usually find myself refreshed afterwards, and often wind up walking back to the office excited to tackle something that I'd been dreading when I arrived in the morning.
That was also one of my favorite moments of the day when I worked in NYC, lunch at Washington Square, listening to whatever jazz band was playing and watching people. A thousand times better than Union Square :)
Every nice day, I love walking up to Washington Square and grabbing a dosa or uttapam from the dosa man.
How do you escape coworker's asking to go to lunch without seeming like an uninterested a$$? Would love some advice in this area.
Can't you just tell them what you're doing..?
"I like to wander around campus a little during lunch to recharge. Thanks for asking though, maybe dinner?"
"I like to wander around campus a little during lunch to recharge. Thanks for asking though, maybe dinner?"
Just say you're busy / in the middle of something. Decline their offer enough and they'll eventually stop asking you. No hard feelings (I say this as the guy who often invites others out).
This is what I recommend too. If someone declines me politely with a reason like "Sorry I'm busy today, maybe next time." I'll probably wait a week or so and invite them again if I want to eat lunch with them. If they reply with something shorter like "I got something to do, sorry," with a less kind intonation I probably wouldn't invite them again.
Go occasionally, do your own thing most of the time.
"Oh, I brought my lunch. Sorry!"
I've been faced with the same dilemma. Eventually, I just started telling people "I have something important to do". After all, being on your own every now and then is something important.
You can also say you've got a previous appointment or engagement... which is also true, even though it's with yourself.
You must all be very popular people since you have to have a strategy to get out of doing things with others. Most people have the opposite problem. You'll seem very unsincere after a while though, if your strategy is to not tell the truth.
Is it that you don't want to hurt the feelings of others that you lie? It's a little immature.
Is it that you don't want to hurt the feelings of others that you lie? It's a little immature.
Some good ones are you're saving money for whatever reason. Or you're trying to eat healthier and can't eat out as much.
Per my company policy, if I eat my desk, that time counts toward hours worked, else I have to take a full hour off which doesn't count toward the standard eight hour day. So if I want that extra hour at home with my kid, I'm eating at my desk.
That's my reasoning as well - while we don't do "our 40 and go home", it looks conspicuously similar, and we bill the client by our hours worked, and so any time I'm at work not putting in billable time is my own time I'm wasting.
I have always done this. I use the time in different ways, depending.
Sometimes I sleep. I have a nice, super comfy setup in the car, should I need it.
Often, I play. Or walk. Just get into idle and stay there for long enough to matter.
Sometimes I sleep. I have a nice, super comfy setup in the car, should I need it.
Often, I play. Or walk. Just get into idle and stay there for long enough to matter.
This is very oddly framed. If the time is psychologically useful, then it isn't wasted. Some people need more, and some people need less relaxation time. I think the author's real issue is with the psychology of trapping yourself into feeling you must work at every moment and feeling guilty if you don't.
The trouble with that in turn is that it's a person's habit or emotional orientation, and likely doesn't change just by being given evidence that you're more productive if you give yourself a break sometimes. Habits don't respond to evidence because they're pattern continuations, not logical choices.
The trouble with that in turn is that it's a person's habit or emotional orientation, and likely doesn't change just by being given evidence that you're more productive if you give yourself a break sometimes. Habits don't respond to evidence because they're pattern continuations, not logical choices.
I've definitely developed habits that were based on mistaken beliefs, then changed them fairly easily when my beliefs changed. I don't think it's crazy to think that someone who is obsessed with optimizing every second of life could change their tune when they start to think of "down time" as productive.
People respond more strongly to the framing of an argument than to its logical content (case in point: GP), and so I would argue that choosing the frame of the oppressor (e.g. it is wasted time) actually reinforces the belief and is counterproductive to changing the habit. It would be better to attack the frame directly by challenging the notion that it's wasted time, instead of parroting it.
I'm not sure about that, how much of the benefit remains if you look at leisure time as another productivity optimizing activity?
I like the attack on the fundamental ideology at play (not just the frame built on top of it) in the statement that "wasting time is good". I think it might be far more helpful.
I like the attack on the fundamental ideology at play (not just the frame built on top of it) in the statement that "wasting time is good". I think it might be far more helpful.
However, using the phrase "wasting time" supports the idea that time is something that can be wasted, and reinforces ideas that being "unproductive" is somehow wasteful.
If it was a habit and you "changed [it] fairly easily", then it either wasn't a habit or you have an exceptional ability there, one most everyone doesn't have.
> I think the author's real issue is with the psychology of trapping yourself into feeling you must work at every moment and feeling guilty if you don't.
I would say that you need to grow as a person at every moment. This includes sleeping, walking in the park without thinking about work, learning themes unrelated to your professional occupation (humanities are great for software engineers), spending time with good people, and of course meditating.
There are almost universal time-wasters though, especially if you spent enough time with them in the past – online and other endless games, most of the movies and TV series, arguing on the Internet, etc.
When you have a subtle feeling that you have experienced it before – it's time to quit.
I would say that you need to grow as a person at every moment. This includes sleeping, walking in the park without thinking about work, learning themes unrelated to your professional occupation (humanities are great for software engineers), spending time with good people, and of course meditating.
There are almost universal time-wasters though, especially if you spent enough time with them in the past – online and other endless games, most of the movies and TV series, arguing on the Internet, etc.
When you have a subtle feeling that you have experienced it before – it's time to quit.
Too often wasting time in an endless youtube/HN/reddit loop takes away from a real break you could be enjoying fully instead of being in guilty limbo.
Everyone needs breaks, so factor these into your plan and commit to them fully, planned breaks can be enjoyed without guilt.
Everyone needs breaks, so factor these into your plan and commit to them fully, planned breaks can be enjoyed without guilt.
For the typical office worker, much of the day is spent pretending to work.
The notion of measuring one's quality of life by "productivity" seems very strange. When one is focused on micro-optimizing what one does, it is difficult to dwell on the bigger and more important questions (such as what life goals might be worthy of pursuit). On the basis of the obliquity principle [1] most metrics that we try to optimize for are probably corollaries of a life well lived.
Further, the irony of articles that try to justify "downtime" as an enabler for better productivity is very funny.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obliquity_(book)
Further, the irony of articles that try to justify "downtime" as an enabler for better productivity is very funny.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obliquity_(book)
At least measuring productivity makes some sense.
A lot of people seem to measure busyness, or even the appearance of busyness as a proxy, but business without achievement is not productivity.
A lot of people seem to measure busyness, or even the appearance of busyness as a proxy, but business without achievement is not productivity.
There is a big difference between wasting time and doing nothing or resting.
I think the title is quite misleading as I doubt the majority of time wasting as it happens in the modern world has any good psychological implications:
A while back I wrote a post analysing Coldplay, Minecraft and my own previous start up in relation to "doing nothing", someone might find it useful: http://unratedtogm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/doing-nothing-will...
I think the title is quite misleading as I doubt the majority of time wasting as it happens in the modern world has any good psychological implications:
A while back I wrote a post analysing Coldplay, Minecraft and my own previous start up in relation to "doing nothing", someone might find it useful: http://unratedtogm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/doing-nothing-will...
I wonder how people in the US are still struggling with this obvious notion that having a good rest is important, not only for the "quality of life", whatever it is, but for the quality of work itself. Here in Europe, this is regarded as self-evident.
Decluttering is the keyword for me. Rethinking what I am consuming, how and what the effects of its consumption are, i.e. what do I do with what I consume? Do I share it? Do I digest it? Do I make something based on it?
I believe that I have elevated wasting time to an art form. For decades I only worked 4 days a week, even for large corporations, and spent my extra day off on my sailboat or at the beach. I am fairly busy right now, but I am still taking two short hikes today, morning and late afternoon with two groups of friends.
A recent book I bought written by Cal Newport "Deep Work" inspires me to keep my habits, with some refinements.
I pay a price for taking lots of time off: "leaving money on the table." For me it is worth it.
A recent book I bought written by Cal Newport "Deep Work" inspires me to keep my habits, with some refinements.
I pay a price for taking lots of time off: "leaving money on the table." For me it is worth it.
Spending time on fun or interesting things is a good way to zero out your 'stressbox' and can be (I'd say should be) just as deliberate a daily habit as zeroing out your email inbox.
Maybe it is not wasting time that is fulfilling, it is adjusting the rhythm that is fulfilling. I think it's more about allocating enough time for both left brain/right brain, or id/ego.
I would said depend wasting time on what right? And still we are here commenting on HN. :)
Is it even possible to waste time? Consider meditation. Widely considered to be a valuable and healthy activity, it literally consists of doing nothing.
Sure, when anxiety and exhaustion from your schedule stop you from doing anything productive (actual work) or healthy (meditation, walks in the park etc etc).
Maybe doing something that's actively harmful could be considered wasting time?
I don't think anyone intends anything harmful. People do harmful things because they are mistaken about stuff, including about what is good. But mistakes are a normal part of discovering the way forward, so, no, not a waste.
Sleeping consists of doing nothing. But you are still breathing, so it's not nothing. I would say watching TV often qualifies as wasting time.
Sleeping isn't a waste of time, either.
TV is source of background cultural knowledge and is enjoyable for that reason. When it ceases to be enjoyable one can stop watching.
OK, one might be addicted to watching TV, but that's a separate issue. Here one is using the TV to avoid addressing other problems. True, it might take a period of mindless watching in order to appreciate this. Has that time been wasted? Well, no, because it had to be spent in order to gain that very appreciation.
TV is source of background cultural knowledge and is enjoyable for that reason. When it ceases to be enjoyable one can stop watching.
OK, one might be addicted to watching TV, but that's a separate issue. Here one is using the TV to avoid addressing other problems. True, it might take a period of mindless watching in order to appreciate this. Has that time been wasted? Well, no, because it had to be spent in order to gain that very appreciation.
suppacodah(1)
Granted, this time doesn't offer much benefit in the course of the working day, personally I'd find if I started work early, that sometimes the meat of my day really wouldn't be productive until later, even though I had been at work for several hours before productivity really took off.
When I had my second son and my wife stayed home for three months, I found myself spending most mornings going to the park with my children and wife and just enjoying the first part of my day with them. Each day I did this I came into work in the afternoon with a lot more energy and focus and finished the same amount of work, or more, plus I was able to enjoy my family and felt more fulfilled overall.
If I had started my day rolling groggily into the shop with coffee in hand and heroically pounding away, it would have taken me those same hours just to wind up into productivity, and my day would feel more tiring and unfulfilling in the end.
Honestly, 7 years in now, I've found I have a natural rhythm to my day, hours I'm focused, hours I'm tired, hours I just don't care and want to do something else, and if I try to work outside of this rhythm, it doesn't make me any more productive, just busy on my own time and needlessly braggadocios towards others when I can say I "worked" 16 hours yesterday when really only 5 hours had anything get done.
This is my own experience though, and to each their own. I tried all the productivity hacking and life hacking and it seemed for me, at the end of the day, that finding time to not work did more to help my work than working for the sake of work.