Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Life and death in Apple’s forbidden city
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-life-death-forbidden-city-longhua-suicide-apple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract
56 comments
It's important to remember employed people normally have a lower suicide rate than average. So Foxcon's rate is similar to the national average, but higher than the national average of employed people.
That and it sounds like groups of workers regularly use the threat of suicide pacts to gain leverage over management-- not to improve conditions, or anything drastic-- just to get paid what they are owed.
Let's not forget that the average age of Foxconn worker is only 23. According to (somewhat dated) WHO, that age group has the lowest suicide rate (http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf)
Number of suicides by age group and gender. CHINA (mainland, selected rural and urban areas*), 1999.
Age (years) 5-14 15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ All
Males 83 626 1357 1287 1196 1165 1325 1009 8048
Females 64 915 1937 1351 1186 1017 1273 1045 8788
Total 147 1541 3294 2638 2382 2182 2598 2054 16836
the same age group has the lowest suicide rates in other countries (eg, US) as well.
Number of suicides by age group and gender. CHINA (mainland, selected rural and urban areas*), 1999.
Age (years) 5-14 15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ All
Males 83 626 1357 1287 1196 1165 1325 1009 8048
Females 64 915 1937 1351 1186 1017 1273 1045 8788
Total 147 1541 3294 2638 2382 2182 2598 2054 16836
the same age group has the lowest suicide rates in other countries (eg, US) as well.
You should look at per capita suicide rates because populations are not distributed evenly by age group. Also, China in 1999 was a very different country so it's difficult to draw conclusions from this dataset about the situation there today.
Sure, I also accounted for the One-Child policy which started in 1979. It still supports the conclusion that the suicide rate is much lower for that age group:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/F...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/F...
Suicide is an especially sensitive death classification, and I would assume even moreso in a place like China. What is your opinion on the validity of these data?
Do you have a source?
It's usually referred to as an increase in suicide rates for the unemployed:
long form: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/02/the-link-between-unem...
Random paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/02779536939...
long form: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/02/the-link-between-unem...
Random paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/02779536939...
A friend of mine is an investigative journalist in China - he spent a while working in a helmet foam factory and living in a dorm such as the one in the article.
He heard rumors that the Chinese mafia would pay workers to commit suicide at Foxconn in exchange for money for their family in the countryside. The mafia would then threaten suicide attempts as leverage to extort concessions from Foxconn.
Not sure if it's true (was only a rumor), but certainly got me thinking about it from another perspective.
Some of my buddy's work:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvwj3k/chinas-21st-centur...
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/roads/2015/0...
He heard rumors that the Chinese mafia would pay workers to commit suicide at Foxconn in exchange for money for their family in the countryside. The mafia would then threaten suicide attempts as leverage to extort concessions from Foxconn.
Not sure if it's true (was only a rumor), but certainly got me thinking about it from another perspective.
Some of my buddy's work:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvwj3k/chinas-21st-centur...
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/roads/2015/0...
Honestly, that sounds like a convenient rumor for Foxconn.
The only thing that I can add is an anecdote.
Around 2000, I worked at a startup that was streamlining the globalization logistics for large manufacturers. One aspect of our software was a qualitative and quantitative rating system for factories in low-cost countries. One of our largest challenges was coming up with reliable scoring metrics that couldn't be gamed by the factories. Because Of this, we eventually had to resort to randomly sending physical auditors to factories.
I wasn't part of that side of the business, but we had systems that allowed these auditors to enter data and notes. It wasn't uncommon for them to report on suicides. At the time, we didn't know much about Chinese culture beyond what we understood through movies and such, so we thought that 'suicide' was a euphemism for 'forced suicide'. Who knows - But, people would just disappear, at least at a seemingly higher rate in China than elsewhere. It was quite chilling.
Around 2000, I worked at a startup that was streamlining the globalization logistics for large manufacturers. One aspect of our software was a qualitative and quantitative rating system for factories in low-cost countries. One of our largest challenges was coming up with reliable scoring metrics that couldn't be gamed by the factories. Because Of this, we eventually had to resort to randomly sending physical auditors to factories.
I wasn't part of that side of the business, but we had systems that allowed these auditors to enter data and notes. It wasn't uncommon for them to report on suicides. At the time, we didn't know much about Chinese culture beyond what we understood through movies and such, so we thought that 'suicide' was a euphemism for 'forced suicide'. Who knows - But, people would just disappear, at least at a seemingly higher rate in China than elsewhere. It was quite chilling.
Please note that the myth of a high rate of suicides at Apple's factories has been proven to be an invention.
Given how many times it's been said and how sensible the question is, would you have a source for that?
It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
> It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard.
You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a serious problem at the factory.
In many industrialized countries suicide rates are not spread equally across all demographic groups.
You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a serious problem at the factory.
In many industrialized countries suicide rates are not spread equally across all demographic groups.
What is the suicide rate for young adults stuck working brutal rural farm jobs? Because that's what most of Foxconn employees waiting in line to escape.
It's not 'simple maths'. Those are 'on-campus suicides', not 'all suicides in the demographic'. Your own link also points out that suicides are mostly elderly rural people, which doesn't line up with the Foxconn worker demographic.
From the article: "There were 18 reported suicide attempts that year alone and 14 confirmed deaths. Twenty more workers were talked down by Foxconn officials."
Then, "Foxconn CEO, Terry Gou, had large nets installed outside many of the buildings to catch falling bodies. The company hired counsellors and workers were made to sign pledges stating they would not attempt to kill themselves."
"In 2012, 150 workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump. They were promised improvements and talked down by management; they had, essentially, wielded the threat of killing themselves as a bargaining tool. In 2016, a smaller group did it again. Just a month before we spoke, Xu says, seven or eight workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump unless they were paid the wages they were due, which had apparently been withheld. Eventually, Xu says, Foxconn agreed to pay the wages and the workers were talked down."
"The body-catching nets are still there."
Then, "Foxconn CEO, Terry Gou, had large nets installed outside many of the buildings to catch falling bodies. The company hired counsellors and workers were made to sign pledges stating they would not attempt to kill themselves."
"In 2012, 150 workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump. They were promised improvements and talked down by management; they had, essentially, wielded the threat of killing themselves as a bargaining tool. In 2016, a smaller group did it again. Just a month before we spoke, Xu says, seven or eight workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump unless they were paid the wages they were due, which had apparently been withheld. Eventually, Xu says, Foxconn agreed to pay the wages and the workers were talked down."
"The body-catching nets are still there."
Nets are a useful suicide prevention measure, and I work quite hard to get them installed in UK multi-story carparks. (Without much success.)
If you can't fit nets you should consider other methods - one multi-storey carpark in England closed the whole top floor.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-preventio...
If you can't fit nets you should consider other methods - one multi-storey carpark in England closed the whole top floor.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-preventio...
> The difference is that Foxconn City is a nation-state governed entirely by a corporation and one that happened to be producing one of the most profitable products on the planet.
Why do we put up with "oh, it's the same everywhere, so it's not a problem" when they are directly responsible for creating this environment?
Why do we put up with "oh, it's the same everywhere, so it's not a problem" when they are directly responsible for creating this environment?
Doesn't Foxconn also manufacture products for many other companies? It doesn't matter because, at the end of the article:
"This is an edited extract from The One Device: The Secret History of the iPhone by Brian Merchant, published by Bantam Press (£16.99). To order a copy for £14.44 go to bookshop.theguardian.com"
"This is an edited extract from The One Device: The Secret History of the iPhone by Brian Merchant, published by Bantam Press (£16.99). To order a copy for £14.44 go to bookshop.theguardian.com"
PlayStations, other cell phones, the nintendo switch,...
They manufacture everything
They manufacture everything
They recently announced they are going to build a huge $10Billion plant in Wisconsin to build LCD screens. (likely related to their Sharp acquisition)
Only if they get the massive tax breaks they are demanding.
Not an uncommon practice for state governments luring new business.
a small slice of pie is better than all of a non-existent pie because the pie relocated to another state or country
With the 3BN tax-dollar giveaway, Wisconsin will not receive any positive pie returns from Foxconn until 2043. Assuming Foxconn doesn't move on to another location in 2042.
It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010: "It wouldn’t be Foxconn without people dying."
It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010: "It wouldn’t be Foxconn without people dying."
> It's worth pointing out that Wisconsin is giving billions to a company where working conditions so bad that workers have been killing themselves there since 2010
Suicide is very common. Pick any large company and you'll find similar rates of death by suicide.
Suicide is very common. Pick any large company and you'll find similar rates of death by suicide.
I pick Apple's California campuses. Now, where are the people flinging themselves off company buildings there?
This apologism misses the fact that the Foxconn suicide statistics are about suicide attempts on company grounds reported to the company. Most suicide attempts aren't known to the company - if someone dies outside the company, it's not necessarily known to the company or counted as part of the aggregate statistics.
I've known two people attempt suicide, and neither of them let their workplace know. Similarly, a friend of a friend committed suicide by flinging himself from a hospital roof - do you really think his company would count his death as being due to their workplace? Of course not, what company would ever tie a suicide to themselves if they could avoid it, regardless of whether they contributed to it.
In short, your argument makes the false assumption that the people killing themselves at their workplace are the only suicides in that demographic.
This apologism misses the fact that the Foxconn suicide statistics are about suicide attempts on company grounds reported to the company. Most suicide attempts aren't known to the company - if someone dies outside the company, it's not necessarily known to the company or counted as part of the aggregate statistics.
I've known two people attempt suicide, and neither of them let their workplace know. Similarly, a friend of a friend committed suicide by flinging himself from a hospital roof - do you really think his company would count his death as being due to their workplace? Of course not, what company would ever tie a suicide to themselves if they could avoid it, regardless of whether they contributed to it.
In short, your argument makes the false assumption that the people killing themselves at their workplace are the only suicides in that demographic.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561995/Police-inves...
Although I don’t know what this does to your statistics; Foxconn employed and houses 2x magnitude more workers vs the apple campus (which houses none)
Although I don’t know what this does to your statistics; Foxconn employed and houses 2x magnitude more workers vs the apple campus (which houses none)
blame china for not having any worker's rights or pollution regulations. Makes it pretty easy to make cheap stuff. I'm guessing advances in robotics now make it cheaper to make it here instead of shipping it from China to the US.
It will be interesting to watch to breakdown in China as tens of millions of angry citizens lose their jobs to automation. Combined with the demographic abomination they created with their 1 child policy I predict China will collapse eventually.
Also it's not a straight tax giveaway upfront, they have to hit incentives over time.
It will be interesting to watch to breakdown in China as tens of millions of angry citizens lose their jobs to automation. Combined with the demographic abomination they created with their 1 child policy I predict China will collapse eventually.
Also it's not a straight tax giveaway upfront, they have to hit incentives over time.
> the demographic abomination they created with their 1 child policy
You mean the male surplus?
Compare the Chinese fertility rate, currently estimated at an abysmally low 1.6 children per woman, with the fertility rate in anything-goes Japan, at 1.4.
You mean the male surplus?
Compare the Chinese fertility rate, currently estimated at an abysmally low 1.6 children per woman, with the fertility rate in anything-goes Japan, at 1.4.
Not necessarily. Increasing research into these "tax incentive" schemes shows that most of the time the jurisdictions in question would be better off without the plant.
The big recent change is that measurements and penalties are starting to get written into these agreements. When you have to go that far, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
The big recent change is that measurements and penalties are starting to get written into these agreements. When you have to go that far, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
This is an extremely well written story, I kept imaging action scenes from thriller.
But I kept wondering the legality of actually stepping into an iPhone fab without permission. As the journalists might be seen as given prior approval, what if they saw the new iPhone and how does journalism in here functions toward revealing information v.s. respecting policies. I also felt that the reason this article was written is only for partially humanitarian cause, but still largely trying to capture curiosities from readership, and the risks definitely seem to have paid off.
But I kept wondering the legality of actually stepping into an iPhone fab without permission. As the journalists might be seen as given prior approval, what if they saw the new iPhone and how does journalism in here functions toward revealing information v.s. respecting policies. I also felt that the reason this article was written is only for partially humanitarian cause, but still largely trying to capture curiosities from readership, and the risks definitely seem to have paid off.
One thing I always find chilling about stories like these is the description of work - specifically, how easily it can be automated. Very few people in western countries depend on jobs like these, but your average Chinese doesn't have much padding against automation taking away this type of jobs. Articles like these make me feel very lucky to have been born into a country which gives me enough opportunities to pad myself against obsolescence.
I wouldn't say very few, driving is a large portion of many breadwinners duties whether they're cab drivers or truck drivers and those jobs will very shortly in the grand scheme of things be automated out.
Tellers, and clerks are another big group of people who might be hit pretty hard by automation.
Tellers, and clerks are another big group of people who might be hit pretty hard by automation.
If the automated checkout at the grocery is any indication, truckers will be ok :)
I've been using automated checkout at Ralph's for a year now, couldn't be happier.
> truckers
You mean checkers? Because with self driving cars somewhere around the corner, I could see truckers getting replaced with self driving trucks sometime in the future.
You mean checkers? Because with self driving cars somewhere around the corner, I could see truckers getting replaced with self driving trucks sometime in the future.
> how easily it can be automated
You're correct. Here's a story of them replacing 60,000 people in one factory. Just incredible!
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966
You're correct. Here's a story of them replacing 60,000 people in one factory. Just incredible!
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966
If they beat a journalist for taking photos from the outside, I'm quite worried what they'll do to the guard that let the author in.
38 suicide attempts among 450,000 workers would place Foxconn's suicide rate at lower than the general suicide rate across the US.
Unless they are US veterans, which is 135 suicides per 450,000 per year.
Yes, 38 per 450,000 people would be a bit lower than the current US rate.
It's very hard to compare suicide rates internationally because different countries have different definitions, and the people who do the counting are not consistent.
The US probably undercounts suicide. The age standardised rate is roughly 13 per 100,000
China definitely undercounts suicide.
It's very hard to compare suicide rates internationally because different countries have different definitions, and the people who do the counting are not consistent.
The US probably undercounts suicide. The age standardised rate is roughly 13 per 100,000
China definitely undercounts suicide.
As consumers we have the power to vote with our wallet. I'm actually proud to say that the last Apple product I bought was the iPad generation 1 for these exact ethical reasons.
I'd really encourage others to look at the companies they buy from and see if they align with your morals before making a purchase.
I'd really encourage others to look at the companies they buy from and see if they align with your morals before making a purchase.
What phone and/or tablet do you use?
Clients of Foxconn include Amazon, Microsoft, Cisco, HP, Dell, Huawei, Nintendo, Sony, Toshiba, Motorola, Blackberry and many more. They don't just make iPhones. Next time you look at an XBox or Switch, guess where it came from? Do you know that workers prefer to work on the Apple lines because Apple has greater say in the factory conditions than the other clients and pays the workers on their lines more? When you looked into the companies you buy from, how far did that research go?
Clients of Foxconn include Amazon, Microsoft, Cisco, HP, Dell, Huawei, Nintendo, Sony, Toshiba, Motorola, Blackberry and many more. They don't just make iPhones. Next time you look at an XBox or Switch, guess where it came from? Do you know that workers prefer to work on the Apple lines because Apple has greater say in the factory conditions than the other clients and pays the workers on their lines more? When you looked into the companies you buy from, how far did that research go?
I use a Fairphone based on Ethical Consumer's research (http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/mobile/phonebroadband/mobilep...)
I still have my iPad Generation 1 as my use case for it is reading epub and pdfs and that hasn't changed since 2010. Also my ethical stance with regards too my consumerism is something I've been doing since 2014.
Granted my laptop is a Dell XPS 15 9550 and while the machine itself is very environmentally friendly Dell's ethical practices leave a lot wanting but so do the other ultrabook manufacturers. In my line of work I am often client facing therefore I need form and function. I'm at least aware of the trade off and my eyes are open with regards to whom I'm supporting with my money.
To answer your question about how far I go, I rely on Ethical Consumer a lot and my own internet searches before making a purchase. Of course I'm also on the lookout for reputable news articles that are focused on this area good or bad.
I still have my iPad Generation 1 as my use case for it is reading epub and pdfs and that hasn't changed since 2010. Also my ethical stance with regards too my consumerism is something I've been doing since 2014.
Granted my laptop is a Dell XPS 15 9550 and while the machine itself is very environmentally friendly Dell's ethical practices leave a lot wanting but so do the other ultrabook manufacturers. In my line of work I am often client facing therefore I need form and function. I'm at least aware of the trade off and my eyes are open with regards to whom I'm supporting with my money.
To answer your question about how far I go, I rely on Ethical Consumer a lot and my own internet searches before making a purchase. Of course I'm also on the lookout for reputable news articles that are focused on this area good or bad.
Well, personally I have no problem supporting highly sought after jobs in China, and industries that have helped raise hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and transformed the country into a modern advanced nation. If you'd seen what China was like the first time I went in 2001 and saw it again today, you might understand.
Yes I've been to China and in a way I supported China's growth by founding a sunglasses marketing and distribution company when i was 18 that grew exceptionally well in New Zealand (50% market share for under $20 price point).
Our manufactures were in Guangzhou and Xiamen.
One thing that struck me when I was in China once was that human life didn't seem as valued as in the West. This planted a seed that had a profound influence on my thinking.
At that time I didn't think about ethics in our supply chain, my focus was solely on survival and then growth... but as I've gotten older I've seen how that's part of the problem. Consumers generally don't see the whole picture and they largely don't care. The theory goes if consumers did start to care, and changed their purchasing habits accordingly, the whole supply chain would be forced to change.
Our manufactures were in Guangzhou and Xiamen.
One thing that struck me when I was in China once was that human life didn't seem as valued as in the West. This planted a seed that had a profound influence on my thinking.
At that time I didn't think about ethics in our supply chain, my focus was solely on survival and then growth... but as I've gotten older I've seen how that's part of the problem. Consumers generally don't see the whole picture and they largely don't care. The theory goes if consumers did start to care, and changed their purchasing habits accordingly, the whole supply chain would be forced to change.
How economically feasible is it to automate assembly? It looks like a lot of human suffering can be lessened if at least some parts of assembly are automated.
Have you ever been to the Chinese countryside? I have, my wife is Chinese. My wife's sister is disabled and married a man from the countryside, a common arrangement in China, so I have relatives from the country. Trust me, sending all those workers back home really isn't going to do an awful lot to reduce human suffering. They choose to go and take those jobs for good reasons.
Many of the workers in those factories are women. After a few years, they often go back home as the wealthiest members of their families, with enough capital to build homes and start new businesses of their own. It's actually started a distinct demographic trend. People have all sorts of bizarre ideas about china. Sure the conditions in these factories are awful by western standards, but China isn't the west. The same basis for making decisions just don't apply. Hopefully they will one day, but we're not there yet.
Many of the workers in those factories are women. After a few years, they often go back home as the wealthiest members of their families, with enough capital to build homes and start new businesses of their own. It's actually started a distinct demographic trend. People have all sorts of bizarre ideas about china. Sure the conditions in these factories are awful by western standards, but China isn't the west. The same basis for making decisions just don't apply. Hopefully they will one day, but we're not there yet.
It's all perspective, just like (paid) child labor in some cultures. While west europeans and most north americans oppose child labor and slavery, in some countries and cultures it is only the 'lesser evil', compared to sex slavery/prostitution, starving to death or getting maimed to then beg for some pimp type of situation.
Is the human assembly line ideal? No. But for many workers it seems that the alternatives in the rural areas are either non-existant or pretty bad.
Is the human assembly line ideal? No. But for many workers it seems that the alternatives in the rural areas are either non-existant or pretty bad.
Reason enough not to buy apple
Apple is about one of the very few companies that at least have a program to check and improve working condition of their manufacturers. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, you've got to stop buying most tech all together.
Given how many products are made by Foxcon and all the companies similar to them you would be better off saying "reason enough not to by an electronic product"