Analysts: Oracle vs. Google May Hurt Future of Java as Dev Platform(adtmag.com)
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Analysts: Oracle vs. Google May Hurt Future of Java as Dev Platform
http://adtmag.com/blogs/watersworks/2010/08/oracle-google-lawsuit-hurt-java.aspx
34 comments
Why, exactly? Will the impact (if any) on android change those languages? I can't see how.
Those fretting about "Oracle's stewardship of Java" all need to take a breath. Honestly, things can't be worse than they were under Sun -- except perhaps in the eyes of those that make platform decisions based on the patent-management policies of multinational corporations. If FUD or "morale" or "community" is the chief concern for others, then they've forgotten the lessons of Java's history: i.e. the shit keeps hitting the fan in different ways, yet code running on JVMs is everywhere, and that'll continue to be the case for decades.
Anyway, I honestly can't see how this has any bearing on "userspace" as it were. If I were a VM vendor, I'd be very concerned, but application and library developers would seem to be entirely unaffected by the suit.
Those fretting about "Oracle's stewardship of Java" all need to take a breath. Honestly, things can't be worse than they were under Sun -- except perhaps in the eyes of those that make platform decisions based on the patent-management policies of multinational corporations. If FUD or "morale" or "community" is the chief concern for others, then they've forgotten the lessons of Java's history: i.e. the shit keeps hitting the fan in different ways, yet code running on JVMs is everywhere, and that'll continue to be the case for decades.
Anyway, I honestly can't see how this has any bearing on "userspace" as it were. If I were a VM vendor, I'd be very concerned, but application and library developers would seem to be entirely unaffected by the suit.
> Why, exactly?
Imagine you are developing a new language to run on the JVM, and it turns out that to get a 10x performance improvement, it would be really great to have this new bytecode instruction added to the JVM. To get it into every JVM, you would have to go through Oracle anyway, so nothing changes there. But if you wanted to distribute your own variation, a hypothetical openJVM+, Oracle is saying that they may well go after you with patent suits.
Good for people happy with the current JVM, looking for stability. Bad for people wanting to bring innovations to the JVM without explicit consent from Oracle.
Imagine you are developing a new language to run on the JVM, and it turns out that to get a 10x performance improvement, it would be really great to have this new bytecode instruction added to the JVM. To get it into every JVM, you would have to go through Oracle anyway, so nothing changes there. But if you wanted to distribute your own variation, a hypothetical openJVM+, Oracle is saying that they may well go after you with patent suits.
Good for people happy with the current JVM, looking for stability. Bad for people wanting to bring innovations to the JVM without explicit consent from Oracle.
Bollocks. People in the alternative JVM language space have been hankering for all sorts of VM changes/additions for years, including TCO, fixnums, method handles, continuations, etc etc etc. How many openJVM+ implementations have ever been implemented, nevermind used out in the world? None, AFAIK -- the progress, as it is, happens in the MLVM, which is under the umbrella of OpenJDK.
So as I said, the exceptions to this might be highly VM vendors, such as Azul, GAE, and various people that have worked on (maybe deployed, I don't know?) full-stack Java operating systems and/or Java-on-a-chip (for embedded applications I suppose). Anyone developing applications, libraries, et al. are entirely unaffected AFAICT.
So as I said, the exceptions to this might be highly VM vendors, such as Azul, GAE, and various people that have worked on (maybe deployed, I don't know?) full-stack Java operating systems and/or Java-on-a-chip (for embedded applications I suppose). Anyone developing applications, libraries, et al. are entirely unaffected AFAICT.
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People are really just being silly about this stuff. They aren't suing because they USED Java or the JVM. I don't see how this could have any effect on these languages.
Yes, they are. Java is _used_ in Android SDK only. You use java-based tools to develop and build Android applications and then convert them into Dalvik applications.
On devices, there is only Dalvik, no Java.
On devices, there is only Dalvik, no Java.
I think you've missed my point. They are not suing simply because Java was used to create an application. I don't plan on creating a new, incompatible JVM any time soon, so how does this effect me in any way? I'm a Clojure application and web developer, not a JVM developer.
No, not at all. The first thing is to realize, that Android, the platform, does not use Java at all. It uses Dalvik, proprietary virtual machine, just like Microsoft's .net or random Smalltalk. There is no JVM in sight.
What uses Java is Android SDK, for their tools. Clojure is Java application the same way, as Android SDK tools are.
What uses Java is Android SDK, for their tools. Clojure is Java application the same way, as Android SDK tools are.
Maybe with open-source developers, but not with Java's corporate bread-and-butter. They might actually like the warm security blanket provided by purchasing official Java licenses, support contracts, certifications, etc that Sun wasn't quite corporatey enough to provide.
Java is practically dead in the water now. Oracle will be lucky if their database product doesn't get badly damaged.
The best developers at Sun were already leaving, with this ? - if I was a recruiter I'd be outside their offices on monday handing out flyers.
Oracle has committed seppuku. They simply won't be able to hire good developers any more, they've horribly tainted their brand. For the next 3-5 years while the lawsuit goes on they're going to be the SCO of the developer world. No decent developer is going to want to touch them.
Any time one of their developers introduces themselves as "I work as a developer for Oracle" to another developer at a party, conference, meetup etc. what do you think the topic of conversation is going to be ?
Once software development companies are no-longer able to hire the best developers there's only one direction for the company to go in.
The best developers at Sun were already leaving, with this ? - if I was a recruiter I'd be outside their offices on monday handing out flyers.
Oracle has committed seppuku. They simply won't be able to hire good developers any more, they've horribly tainted their brand. For the next 3-5 years while the lawsuit goes on they're going to be the SCO of the developer world. No decent developer is going to want to touch them.
Any time one of their developers introduces themselves as "I work as a developer for Oracle" to another developer at a party, conference, meetup etc. what do you think the topic of conversation is going to be ?
Once software development companies are no-longer able to hire the best developers there's only one direction for the company to go in.
If Oracle was worried about looking evil, they've had thirty years to come to their senses. If their employees are concerned about working for an evil company, they haven't been paying attention.
I dunno, there was already a stereotype (maybe even of stigma) of working at Oracle. I've always held the notion that they cared more about selling their products than developing them.
It's not like super talented hackers were beating down the door to work there already (with maybe the exception of their core database team).
It's not like super talented hackers were beating down the door to work there already (with maybe the exception of their core database team).
Bad reputations don't hurt anyone in this business. Up until the 90's no other company had a bully reputation as bad as IBM (e.g.: their Hollerith machines were used by Hitler to control who was going to the gas chambers).
But still, no other company in the world has attracted so many bright minds (Jon Von Neuman, John Backus, Ted Cobb, etc), got so many Nobel prizes or made so many important technological achievements.
But still, no other company in the world has attracted so many bright minds (Jon Von Neuman, John Backus, Ted Cobb, etc), got so many Nobel prizes or made so many important technological achievements.
In the past IBM, AT&T Labs, and now Google all had the huge advantages in being at the cutting edge of research which allowed them to attract talent.
If you want to see a company dying because it can't hire good developers because of it's reputation look at Nokia.
If you want to see a company dying because it can't hire good developers because of it's reputation look at Nokia.
I've been thinking an openJDK fork would be inevitable ever since the Sun acquisiton was announced. The one upside to this announcement is it may just accelerate the fork by making Oracle's hostility to free software more obvious. The community should be able to get the JVM moving forward again.
What would be the point of a fork?
If the fork subsets or supersets Java, or if it fails to comply to the Java specification, I believe that Sun's patent promise does not apply, and so the fork would be vulnerable to Oracle patent suits.
If the fork subsets or supersets Java, or if it fails to comply to the Java specification, I believe that Sun's patent promise does not apply, and so the fork would be vulnerable to Oracle patent suits.
And you can't prove compliance without getting a JTCK license from ... Oracle. Which Sun wasn't very interested in supplying to the Apache Harmony project, and when I checked into the terms a few months ago they're still very restrictive. Basically if you aren't furthering openJDK, forget it.
Depending on the outcome of the negotiations, Google (and somewhat less directly, the telcos and end-users) will have clearly taken hit points against a critical part of the Android stack.
A discussion of vertical integration and competition and of maintaining control over the key parts of the product stacks, of managing outside dependencies, of Adobe, and of Google and J2ME, from a few months back:
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-is-a-genius-contro...
And what Oracle might seek in return here will be interesting. Buckets of money would be the most obvious, but Oracle can also play a much longer game.
A discussion of vertical integration and competition and of maintaining control over the key parts of the product stacks, of managing outside dependencies, of Adobe, and of Google and J2ME, from a few months back:
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-is-a-genius-contro...
And what Oracle might seek in return here will be interesting. Buckets of money would be the most obvious, but Oracle can also play a much longer game.
For me, the big question is: where does all this leave IBM? IBM has a huge investment in Java, but now Oracle has made it clear that they're not going to play nice. The senior guys at IBM have to be thinking long and hard about that...
Gee, you think?
Even "obvious" articles need to be written because there are many people out there for whom, they aren't obvious.
i.e investors
Investors who can't see that suing people who use your technology might reduce the popularity of said technology should probably not be investing in technology. As Warren Buffett says: invest in what you know.
Suing people who use your technology without licensing it is typically a net positive. Hence it needs to be pointed out why that isn't the case here.
Of course, Oracle's action threatens what we know as Sun's Java.
Indeed, it kills Java ME stone dead. But it was dead a couple of years ago. So no loss there.
However, I'm not clear how this affects Android, since Android is not Java.
When I code Android I 'feel' like I'm coding Java, because the syntax is the same. But I'm not running Java. I know that, and I feel that.
So, if Oracle want to attack Java, or protect its patents, take your pick, I say: knock yourself out. Here in Android world, it's no concern of mine as I'm not using Java.
Attacking Java isn't an attack on Android development. Although that appears to be what Oracle thinks it is doing.
Indeed, it kills Java ME stone dead. But it was dead a couple of years ago. So no loss there.
However, I'm not clear how this affects Android, since Android is not Java.
When I code Android I 'feel' like I'm coding Java, because the syntax is the same. But I'm not running Java. I know that, and I feel that.
So, if Oracle want to attack Java, or protect its patents, take your pick, I say: knock yourself out. Here in Android world, it's no concern of mine as I'm not using Java.
Attacking Java isn't an attack on Android development. Although that appears to be what Oracle thinks it is doing.
My reaction was the opposite. They're not going after people who use their Java implementation or OpenJDK, they're going after the distributors of an alternate implementation of something like Java that is infringing on the patents related to language implementation. Oracle's (formerly Sun's) Java versions, including ME and EE, still look safe.
I'm wondering if the lawsuit has anything to do with Apple. Ellison and Jobs are best friends, as far as I know.
Is anyone else's reaction to the situation: "Oracle is dispensable"?
Well, not any time soon (the Java/JVM ecosystem is too big, too rich). But in the long term, at the moment I agree with this observation in the article which captures the most relevant and important issue for me:
Forrester Research analyst John Rymer agrees [ this will have a chilling effect on developers ]: "I think this lawsuit casts the die on Java’s future," he said. "It will become a slow-evolving legacy technology. Oracle’s lawsuit links deep innovation in Java with license fees, and that will kill deep innovation in Java by anyone outside Oracle or startups hoping to sell out to Oracle. Software innovation just doesn’t do well in the kind of environment Oracle just created."
"Deep innovation" in e.g. JVM GC for functional languages (Clojure) is exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in ... and that's now at best on hold while I get a better grasp of this mess and its implications. But the real scope of the implications probably won't become clear for years and I'm certainly not going to wait that long.
Forrester Research analyst John Rymer agrees [ this will have a chilling effect on developers ]: "I think this lawsuit casts the die on Java’s future," he said. "It will become a slow-evolving legacy technology. Oracle’s lawsuit links deep innovation in Java with license fees, and that will kill deep innovation in Java by anyone outside Oracle or startups hoping to sell out to Oracle. Software innovation just doesn’t do well in the kind of environment Oracle just created."
"Deep innovation" in e.g. JVM GC for functional languages (Clojure) is exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in ... and that's now at best on hold while I get a better grasp of this mess and its implications. But the real scope of the implications probably won't become clear for years and I'm certainly not going to wait that long.
Just the latest event to make the LNPP/LNPR stack more attractive. (Linux, Nginx, PostgreSQL, Python/Ruby)
Does anyone think Google didn't plan for this? Isn't this a great excuse to displace Java and use their own language? I'm already scared.
That would be just dandy. I wonder how many decades school will continue teaching Java after it has truly and finally become obsolete?
Oracle vs. Google May Hurt Future of Java as Dev Platform
Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
If you were contemplating starting a new project using Clojure, for instance, would this lawsuit give you pause? I think I would worry about it, at least a little.