On Being Accused (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)(facebook.com)
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On Being Accused (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)
https://facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/on-being-accused/10156870826326613/
39 comments
To be fair, they are well compensated for it.
Sadly I have to agree with you, when you're in the spotlight like that you have to realise that your actions ripple outwards and drive the behaviour of susceptible recipients.
One can argue "he's just a guy, he did something stupid, probably thought it was funny at the time" but that argument falls flat when you consider that some people will use that as an excuse to imitate the behaviour. Even if you're not a creep yourself, the "I was just messing around" excuse isn't good enough when it might enable real creeps to do the same.
One can argue "he's just a guy, he did something stupid, probably thought it was funny at the time" but that argument falls flat when you consider that some people will use that as an excuse to imitate the behaviour. Even if you're not a creep yourself, the "I was just messing around" excuse isn't good enough when it might enable real creeps to do the same.
In this case, and the case with Andy Rubin, I immediately thought "these people are guilty" - without evidence, without even knowing them or having spoken to them or otherwise having any sort of real judgement about their character.
I had to step back and realize that I was jumping to a conclusion prematurely.
In case you are not familiar with how the law works (outside of the court of social media), an accusation, no matter how believable, is not damning evidence - even when multiple accusations come to light. Objectivity is extremely important in these situations because it has already been demonstrated that our instincts are not impartial.
I'm not saying that any given person is or is not guilty, just that they deserve a fair trial.
I had to step back and realize that I was jumping to a conclusion prematurely.
In case you are not familiar with how the law works (outside of the court of social media), an accusation, no matter how believable, is not damning evidence - even when multiple accusations come to light. Objectivity is extremely important in these situations because it has already been demonstrated that our instincts are not impartial.
I'm not saying that any given person is or is not guilty, just that they deserve a fair trial.
There is nothing wrong with suspecting that they are guilty when there are multiple accusers, because you are a person in the court of social media, and not a judge.
It's okay to form an opinion without believing that your opinion should be adopted as a legal conclusion!
It's okay to form an opinion without believing that your opinion should be adopted as a legal conclusion!
The problem is that it doesn't take a legal conclusion to ruin someone's life. If enough people form a bad opinion of you, even if those opinions are based off incorrect evidence, then your life is ruined, regardless of what the legal conclusions say.
There's an idea that someone would never accuse another of sexual misconduct because there is nothing to gain. Victims are unfortunately still stigmatized. At the same time, there are those who would lie about sexual misconduct for various reasons including attention, revenge and notoriety. The chance of this happening to a public figure increases exponentially.
It is totally fair to form an opinion, I just hope that people weigh all the evidence first. In many cases, I see people forming verdicts as soon as someone is accused. The other problem is that the details of these cases are often largely obscured for the public, other than what they are willing to publicly state (and often lawyers discourage this).
“If I hug you I might just want more.” is a very creepy thing to say in my opinion.
Uncharitable reading: "a very creepy thing"
Charitable reading: "a funny throw away comment"
Charitable reading: "a funny throw away comment"
No, actually, it's just creepy.
While I'd agree with you 'in the wild' on a random person, if you watch Neil for a length of time on stage,.... he has an energy about him. It almost exudes as a hyperactive type of quality. Not many people are excited about space "stuff" - so I can see him just becoming overly excited when people ARE interested.
I've watched NDT quite a bit (being an amateur astronomer myself), but that statement is still creepy. I don't think that being 'energetic' automatically excempts any individual from criticism for their actions and words.
That’s the kind of thing a horny fourteen year old boy says. It’s funny to precisely no one.
Really? I bet many people would find it funny. Perhaps not you or your circle, but you don't define the world, his country, state, or community.
[deleted]
It's a pretty peculiar thing to say. Maybe even a bad attempt at flirting. But it seems like whether it's creepy depends on how it's delivered and by whom.
Sure I suppose I'll grant that creepiness is subjective and others will find this creepy even if I don't.
But what's more critical IMO is what if anything we should do about it. Should NDT lose job opportunities? Should women fear working with him? Not over 'creepiness' IMO. That said, losing job opportunities and women avoiding him is a natural consequence if the frequency/severity of the bad behavior continues.
The power of #metoo is that through unity, past victims can prevent future ones. If NDT truly victimizes women, this disclosure will help prevent more.
Sure I suppose I'll grant that creepiness is subjective and others will find this creepy even if I don't.
But what's more critical IMO is what if anything we should do about it. Should NDT lose job opportunities? Should women fear working with him? Not over 'creepiness' IMO. That said, losing job opportunities and women avoiding him is a natural consequence if the frequency/severity of the bad behavior continues.
The power of #metoo is that through unity, past victims can prevent future ones. If NDT truly victimizes women, this disclosure will help prevent more.
If #metoo is about sexual harassment, then going after people who once said something creepy seems to make the term less strong.
To me, it feels like an insult to all people who were actual victims of sexual harassment.
To me, it feels like an insult to all people who were actual victims of sexual harassment.
That rather depends on if that was intended to complete to "If I hug you I might just want more [hugs]." vs "If I hug you I might just want more [intimate things]."
Usually the truth lies between the stories expressed by the two sides. Condemning someone just because he is accused is definitely wrong. If things are the way he says then in my book I don't think he did anything wrong but that's just me and my opinion and I don't really know what happened the same way anyone who condemns him doesn't either. Bottomline he's right about one thing for sure, that everyone is a jury in the court of social media. Guilty or not won't matter cause his popularity has already been hurt by the social media backfire.
FTA:
> I was reported to have “groped” her by searching “up her dress”, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress."
Umm.. what? If you wondered if Pluto was in her tattoo, why not just ask? Or even make a joke, "Hey, do you have Pluto or did you get it removed like I did?"
Actually touching her dress and moving any portion aside is bizarre at best and creepy in many other cases.
Umm.. what? If you wondered if Pluto was in her tattoo, why not just ask? Or even make a joke, "Hey, do you have Pluto or did you get it removed like I did?"
Actually touching her dress and moving any portion aside is bizarre at best and creepy in many other cases.
The alleged groping:
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p75x225/472313...
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p75x225/472313...
[deleted]
Might want to add Neil Degrasse Tyson to the title :)
The complete text from Facebook
-------------------------------
On Being Accused
NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON·SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2018
For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in today’s “me-too” climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due-process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.
In any claim, evidence matters. Evidence always matters. But what happens when it’s just one person’s word against another’s, and the stories don’t agree? That’s when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom. And that’s when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth – and would have my full cooperation to do so.
I’ve recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past forty-eight hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, it’s not the media’s fault. I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press. But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent. So below I offer my account of each accusation.
The 2009 Incident
I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them. A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore. As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice you’re wearing cosmic bling – clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically. And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph.
A colleague at a well attended, after-conference, social gathering came up to me to ask for a photograph. She was wearing a sleeveless dress with a tattooed solar system extending up her arm. And while I don’t explicitly remember searching for Pluto at the top of her shoulder, it is surely something I would have done in that situation. As we all know, I have professional history with the demotion of Pluto, which had occurred officially just three years earlier. So whether people include it or not in their tattoos is of great interest to me. I was reported to have “groped” her by searching “up her dress”, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.
I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy. That was never my intent and I’m deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot. In my mind’s eye, I’m a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to people’s personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm.
Summer 2018 Incident
While filming this past summer, I had a (female) Production Assistant assigned to me, to ensure, among her countless tasks, that every ounce of my energy was efficiently allocated to the production needs of the show. As part of this, she was also my driver, to and from the studio, ensuring that I arrive on time. In the car we would review details of the shoot and she would help me anticipate parts of the shoot to come. Across the many weeks of shooting she and I spent upwards of a hundred hours in one-on-one conversation. We became so friendly that we talked about all manner of subjects, even social-personal ones, like the care of aging parents, sibling relationships, life in high school and college, hometown hobbies, race, gender, and so forth. We also discussed less-personal topics in abundance, like rock lyrics, favorite songs in various musical genres, concert experiences, etc. And we also talked about food – I’m kind of a foodie, and her fiancé was a chef. In short, we had a fun, talkative friendship.
She is a talented, warm and friendly person -- excellent traits for morale on a high pressure production. Practically everyone she knows on set gets a daily welcome-hug from her. I expressly rejected each hug offered frequently during the Production. But in its place I offered a handshake, and on a few occasions, clumsily declared, “If I hug you I might just want more.” My intent was to express restrained but genuine affection.
In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted. In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated. Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.
Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening. She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had.
Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure. On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon. You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other person’s vital spirit energy -- the pulse. I’ve never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom I’ve developed new friendships.
At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology. And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.
I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend.
Early 1980s
I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980. It’s a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD. In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives. While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class. Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasn’t there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.
I didn't see much of her after that time. Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes. A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. That’s when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school. Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.
More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name. Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school. She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.
For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets. As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember. It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesn’t remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time. So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.
I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.
Overview
I’m the accused, so why believe anything I say? Why believe me at all?
That brings us back to the value of an independent investigation, which FOX/NatGeo (the networks on which Cosmos and StarTalk air) announced that they will conduct. I welcome this.
Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage. Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant – a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public. I am grateful for the support I’ve received from those who continue to respect and value me and my work.
Respectfully submitted, Neil deGrasse Tyson, New York City
-------------------------------
On Being Accused
NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON·SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2018
For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in today’s “me-too” climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due-process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.
In any claim, evidence matters. Evidence always matters. But what happens when it’s just one person’s word against another’s, and the stories don’t agree? That’s when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom. And that’s when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth – and would have my full cooperation to do so.
I’ve recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past forty-eight hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, it’s not the media’s fault. I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press. But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent. So below I offer my account of each accusation.
The 2009 Incident
I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them. A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore. As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice you’re wearing cosmic bling – clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically. And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph.
A colleague at a well attended, after-conference, social gathering came up to me to ask for a photograph. She was wearing a sleeveless dress with a tattooed solar system extending up her arm. And while I don’t explicitly remember searching for Pluto at the top of her shoulder, it is surely something I would have done in that situation. As we all know, I have professional history with the demotion of Pluto, which had occurred officially just three years earlier. So whether people include it or not in their tattoos is of great interest to me. I was reported to have “groped” her by searching “up her dress”, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.
I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy. That was never my intent and I’m deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot. In my mind’s eye, I’m a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to people’s personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm.
Summer 2018 Incident
While filming this past summer, I had a (female) Production Assistant assigned to me, to ensure, among her countless tasks, that every ounce of my energy was efficiently allocated to the production needs of the show. As part of this, she was also my driver, to and from the studio, ensuring that I arrive on time. In the car we would review details of the shoot and she would help me anticipate parts of the shoot to come. Across the many weeks of shooting she and I spent upwards of a hundred hours in one-on-one conversation. We became so friendly that we talked about all manner of subjects, even social-personal ones, like the care of aging parents, sibling relationships, life in high school and college, hometown hobbies, race, gender, and so forth. We also discussed less-personal topics in abundance, like rock lyrics, favorite songs in various musical genres, concert experiences, etc. And we also talked about food – I’m kind of a foodie, and her fiancé was a chef. In short, we had a fun, talkative friendship.
She is a talented, warm and friendly person -- excellent traits for morale on a high pressure production. Practically everyone she knows on set gets a daily welcome-hug from her. I expressly rejected each hug offered frequently during the Production. But in its place I offered a handshake, and on a few occasions, clumsily declared, “If I hug you I might just want more.” My intent was to express restrained but genuine affection.
In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted. In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated. Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.
Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening. She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had.
Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure. On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon. You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other person’s vital spirit energy -- the pulse. I’ve never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom I’ve developed new friendships.
At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology. And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.
I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend.
Early 1980s
I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980. It’s a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD. In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives. While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class. Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasn’t there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.
I didn't see much of her after that time. Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes. A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. That’s when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school. Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.
More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name. Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school. She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.
For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets. As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember. It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesn’t remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time. So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.
I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.
Overview
I’m the accused, so why believe anything I say? Why believe me at all?
That brings us back to the value of an independent investigation, which FOX/NatGeo (the networks on which Cosmos and StarTalk air) announced that they will conduct. I welcome this.
Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage. Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant – a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public. I am grateful for the support I’ve received from those who continue to respect and value me and my work.
Respectfully submitted, Neil deGrasse Tyson, New York City
As someone who explicitly blocked everything FB on a DNS level in his home, I'd like to thank you.
On a related note, I noticed that Outline.com is useful for grabbing FB posts like that one: https://outline.com/csDYmp
On a related note, I noticed that Outline.com is useful for grabbing FB posts like that one: https://outline.com/csDYmp
He is right that the presumption of guilt is bad, but typically these things either snowball or fizzle, as more women come forward or none do. If I had to gamble, I'd gamble he's done nothing wrong and this will go away.
I read the whole thing with his voice in my head and it made me mad.
I thought Judge Kavanaugh was treated in a grossly unfair manner.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson is a chance for us all to do better, let's not condemn him without fair proof. He may well be guilty, but it's best to presume innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson is a chance for us all to do better, let's not condemn him without fair proof. He may well be guilty, but it's best to presume innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Neil Degrasse Tyson, Laurence Krauss and Michael Shermer have all been accused of sexual misconduct. What’s up with the New Atheists?
Yes, there are genuine creeps out there. But no, I don’t think you can judge a person by a few “puts foot in mouth” moments. We all do that sometimes, but when you are a celebrity the stakes are so much higher.