Fun with Snapchat's Gender Swapping Filter(blog.evjang.com)
blog.evjang.com
Fun with Snapchat's Gender Swapping Filter
https://blog.evjang.com/2019/05/fun-with-snapchats-gender-swapping.html
99 comments
I looks like what you could see in "A Scanner Darkly" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405296/
You read my mind! I was just going to post this -
So here's a real application than Snap and kiddie jokes (not saying they are not fun!) - a scramble suit to protect witness/whistle-blower identity
So here's a real application than Snap and kiddie jokes (not saying they are not fun!) - a scramble suit to protect witness/whistle-blower identity
I'm guessing this filter is only available on certain phones? I installed Snapchat to play with it, but apparently I don't get access.
Did you find the filters? You have to hold down on your face when the selfie camera is activated. It's on my LG G7, which basically nobody uses, so I doubt they only targeted certain phones (unless they block generic criteria like less than 2 GB ram or something).
> Did you find the filters? You have to hold down on your face when the selfie camera is activated.
This right here is why I hate Snapchat. I've never seen a more unintuitive UI.
This right here is why I hate Snapchat. I've never seen a more unintuitive UI.
There's theories out there that Snapchat's confounding UI is to make older people frustrated with it and avoid it, keeping it cool.
Some people think it's a feature, not a bug: https://www.inc.com/kevin-j-ryan/the-ingenious-reason-snapch...
I've found the filters, but I can't find one that does this.
You may have to have someone send you a snap from their phone with the filter installed and hit the Unlock button in that snap. It's weird.
[deleted]
My pixel phone had it but the filter ran at around 0.5fps, so it was very hard to use.
cat199(1)
You can follow artists like Mario Klingemann to see people experimenting on the cutting edge of this stuff:
https://twitter.com/quasimondo/status/1127906469108756480
https://twitter.com/quasimondo/status/1127906469108756480
> I have a friend who does drag. It's a lot of work! I'm excited for technology like this, because it will make it easier for makeup & drag artists to experiment with new ideas and identities cheaply and quickly.
Similarly, I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features. Sometimes coming up with makeup ideas is hard since I lack in experience and equipment. I don't want to purchase a bunch products I'll end up never using. Technologies like this allows me to quickly test makeup ideas. For example, I have green eyes so they automatically add purple eye-shadow to make my eyes look brighter. I've since incorporated this color in my daily makeup. I've noticed that they overdraw the lipstick to make the lips look fuller, so I also do that when I want a more polished look.
However, this is a double edged sword.
Those filters raise expectation on what you might look like after a gender transition.
I've seen a lot of angry and disappointed people because of that. Those applications change a lot about your face, sometimes in subtle ways you won't notice. The curve of the jaw is slightly different, the eyes are a bit farther apart, your skull is more round, etc. Changes that are pretty much impossible even with facial feminization surgeries.
People strive to reach that "perfection" and end up being stuck in limbo, unable to reach it so unable to free themselves from their gender dysphoria. It's easy to spiral down from there.
Similarly, I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features. Sometimes coming up with makeup ideas is hard since I lack in experience and equipment. I don't want to purchase a bunch products I'll end up never using. Technologies like this allows me to quickly test makeup ideas. For example, I have green eyes so they automatically add purple eye-shadow to make my eyes look brighter. I've since incorporated this color in my daily makeup. I've noticed that they overdraw the lipstick to make the lips look fuller, so I also do that when I want a more polished look.
However, this is a double edged sword.
Those filters raise expectation on what you might look like after a gender transition.
I've seen a lot of angry and disappointed people because of that. Those applications change a lot about your face, sometimes in subtle ways you won't notice. The curve of the jaw is slightly different, the eyes are a bit farther apart, your skull is more round, etc. Changes that are pretty much impossible even with facial feminization surgeries.
People strive to reach that "perfection" and end up being stuck in limbo, unable to reach it so unable to free themselves from their gender dysphoria. It's easy to spiral down from there.
> I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features
I've been recommending FaceApp to people who want to buy new glasses or sunglasses for a while. It seems pretty stable.
I've been recommending FaceApp to people who want to buy new glasses or sunglasses for a while. It seems pretty stable.
> I've noticed that they overdraw the lipstick to make the lips look fuller, so I also do that when I want a more polished look.
Does that not look obvious from close up?
Does that not look obvious from close up?
Not if done correctly. This is simply one of the methods of applying lipstick. See: https://imgur.com/a/f8GE3iE
This also serve as an example of what I was saying above. I would have never thought to learn that skill if not for those apps that applied it to me. It's like having your own personal AI makeup assistant.
This also serve as an example of what I was saying above. I would have never thought to learn that skill if not for those apps that applied it to me. It's like having your own personal AI makeup assistant.
>Similarly, I'm transgender and use those applications to come up with new ideas on how to make little changes to my appearance to feminize my features.
Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes? Like "you selected female, here is what females should look like." If gender is a social construct, tech like this is clearly maintaining that construct, yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.
Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes? Like "you selected female, here is what females should look like." If gender is a social construct, tech like this is clearly maintaining that construct, yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.
There's nothing inherently wrong with maintaining the construct of gender, if it has been defanged to do no harm to anybody.
If "gender" just means that you put on a dress and makeup and now you're "a girl", or you put on a suit and cut your hair and now you're "a dude", then "gender" isn't really anything to be afraid of, because anyone can put on or take off a gender any time they like, and it's no longer an inherent property of a person. It's just a word describing voluntary roles that anyone can assume at any time—archetypal character profiles that one can choose to "wear" to indicate that people should identify them with that archetype (like wearing a mask in an opera; or "disneybounding.")
We're not there yet, mind you, but that's the direction the LGBTQ movement has been trying to push things for decades now: making it less about "am I female?" and more about e.g. "am I a dainty princess?" where anyone who wants to play the role of "a dainty princess" can do so; and anyone who wants to opt out of that role can do that, too, and nobody in particular is expected to take that role upon themselves.
But if-and-when we have all that, then there would be nothing wrong with wanting to conform to the stereotype of "a dainty princess", or to any other gender-based stereotype; and there wouldn't even be anything wrong with gatekeeping such roles, insisting that "a dainty princess" has a particular look and behavior, being picky about who does or doesn't fit the mold of "a dainty princess", etc. If nobody is already slotted into any gender by default, then "gender" becomes a matter of finding the gender that perfectly suits you; rather than something where you're stuck with a gender whether it suits you or not, and so have to fight for the mind-share required to deform your gender's definition to ensure it includes you.
If "gender" just means that you put on a dress and makeup and now you're "a girl", or you put on a suit and cut your hair and now you're "a dude", then "gender" isn't really anything to be afraid of, because anyone can put on or take off a gender any time they like, and it's no longer an inherent property of a person. It's just a word describing voluntary roles that anyone can assume at any time—archetypal character profiles that one can choose to "wear" to indicate that people should identify them with that archetype (like wearing a mask in an opera; or "disneybounding.")
We're not there yet, mind you, but that's the direction the LGBTQ movement has been trying to push things for decades now: making it less about "am I female?" and more about e.g. "am I a dainty princess?" where anyone who wants to play the role of "a dainty princess" can do so; and anyone who wants to opt out of that role can do that, too, and nobody in particular is expected to take that role upon themselves.
But if-and-when we have all that, then there would be nothing wrong with wanting to conform to the stereotype of "a dainty princess", or to any other gender-based stereotype; and there wouldn't even be anything wrong with gatekeeping such roles, insisting that "a dainty princess" has a particular look and behavior, being picky about who does or doesn't fit the mold of "a dainty princess", etc. If nobody is already slotted into any gender by default, then "gender" becomes a matter of finding the gender that perfectly suits you; rather than something where you're stuck with a gender whether it suits you or not, and so have to fight for the mind-share required to deform your gender's definition to ensure it includes you.
If you remove the link to sex, then what's the difference between gender and personality? My understanding is that gender is a social construct that maps behavior onto biology... if you sever that link, then you're left with behavior. Why do we need to maintain these categories of masculinity and femininity? Why are we reifying archetypes instead of moving past them?
The thing gender "actually is", when you pare everything else away, is a set of role scripts. Culture is made of rituals, and these rituals have labelled slots for people to fit into. The labels are genders (and also ages, social classes, and familial relationships, but that's less relevant here.)
Think of it this way: a wedding has a "bride" and a "groom." One way to think of it—the beach-head gay rights have established for us—is that either a man or a woman can be "a bride"; and either a man or a woman can be "a groom." Therefore, you could have a wedding with two "brides" who are both men, if you wanted.
Another way to think of it, though, is that being "a groom" (and all other such similar roles) is what it means to be "a man." In this model, a wedding is one of many rituals—a stage-play with a script—and one character in this stageplay is called "the bride", while another character is "the groom." You can't have two brides; that's not how the play of "The Wedding" is written. But anyone can play "the groom." And whoever plays "the groom" in the wedding, is also known as "a man"—at least for the purposes of the wedding script. If you happen to always play the set of roles in role-scripts that say that "a man" plays them, then you are "a man." Your gender is something you deduce from the set of roles you favor.
The work that goes into being transgender—the hormones, makeup, clothes, all that? Other than for the few people with true Body Dysmorphic Disorder (who would get reassignment surgery even if there were no other humans left on Earth to observe the results), the whole goal of the transitioning process is to get other people to "cast" you as the role you prefer to be identified with in these cultural role-scripts. A transman is someone who wants other people to intuitively place them as "the groom" at the wedding. That's the essential quality of it.
And, if you don't go for any of the available gender role-scripts that our culture defines? Then you don't have a (simple, obvious) gender, according to said culture. You would be genderqueer, nonbinary—whatever the word is today. Even if you're accidentally a completely central example of masculinity or femininity—if you aren't playing the role associated with that presentation, then it ain't your gender.
Think of it this way: a wedding has a "bride" and a "groom." One way to think of it—the beach-head gay rights have established for us—is that either a man or a woman can be "a bride"; and either a man or a woman can be "a groom." Therefore, you could have a wedding with two "brides" who are both men, if you wanted.
Another way to think of it, though, is that being "a groom" (and all other such similar roles) is what it means to be "a man." In this model, a wedding is one of many rituals—a stage-play with a script—and one character in this stageplay is called "the bride", while another character is "the groom." You can't have two brides; that's not how the play of "The Wedding" is written. But anyone can play "the groom." And whoever plays "the groom" in the wedding, is also known as "a man"—at least for the purposes of the wedding script. If you happen to always play the set of roles in role-scripts that say that "a man" plays them, then you are "a man." Your gender is something you deduce from the set of roles you favor.
The work that goes into being transgender—the hormones, makeup, clothes, all that? Other than for the few people with true Body Dysmorphic Disorder (who would get reassignment surgery even if there were no other humans left on Earth to observe the results), the whole goal of the transitioning process is to get other people to "cast" you as the role you prefer to be identified with in these cultural role-scripts. A transman is someone who wants other people to intuitively place them as "the groom" at the wedding. That's the essential quality of it.
And, if you don't go for any of the available gender role-scripts that our culture defines? Then you don't have a (simple, obvious) gender, according to said culture. You would be genderqueer, nonbinary—whatever the word is today. Even if you're accidentally a completely central example of masculinity or femininity—if you aren't playing the role associated with that presentation, then it ain't your gender.
This seems really alien to me. When I grew up the idea was to do away with gender roles, but what you're saying seems to be pretty much the opposite of that. I guess a lot of this comes from people using the word gender, but they mean sex.
Gender could be a benign or even beneficial social construct, if that’s what it is, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing.
How would a lack of choice and the ability to self determine be positive?
You can't pick your ethinicity either, it just exists.
If by ethnicity you mean genetics, then no, you can't change that (not yet anyway). But if you mean outward appearance of ethnicity, then yes, there are plenty of ways to adjust it that are widely employed. Everything from skin whitening cream to tanning to bleaching to plastic surgery to whatever Rachel Dolezal did. A lot of this stuff is very widespread in many countries, e.g. it's very common for Asians to get eyelid surgery to look more white.
People would change it if they could, same as height and any number of other immutables that people are discriminated on.
People are already getting leg surgeries to adjust height. It doesn't seem worth it to me, and there's lots of potential negative side effects, but this is something that is actually happening.
And I don't even need to explain all the surgeries people do to add or remove fatness.
And I don't even need to explain all the surgeries people do to add or remove fatness.
Its just the technology doesn't exist yet. Although some feature of ethnicity can currently be changed.
People make choices about culture all the time, it’s in the realm of self determination.
> Do you ever feel like these applications are re-enforcing physical gender stereotypes?
They do. Even people that are not transgender might get stuck trying to reach a goal that is impossible. What I have is "Gender Dysphoria" because it is strongly linked to my gender identity. However, nobody is safe from "Body Dysmorphic Disorder". There has been a increase in people who go see plastic chirurgeons with such filters as reference images[1].
In my case, that's a wanted effect. By sticking to society's gender stereotypes I increase my ability to pass unnoticed. It is fine for women to not follow those stereotypes. There are strong women, women who like to dress in male clothing, women who wear punk haircuts, sit with their legs spread out, etc. The thing is, those habits often cause people to take notice. In their case, people would look and think "Oh, this woman is punk. I [love/hate] how it looks!". In my case, that's often "Oh god, there is a man in the girl's bathroom. Let's call security!".
I am aware of the stereotypes and hide behind them. That's not to say I never break them. In my daily life, I try to blend in. If I go to a bar and want to stand out? There's nothing stopping me from bending those rules. For example, my large shoulders that are a pain in my day to day life look amazing in studded leather coat.
[1] "Please Don’t Ask a Plastic Surgeon to Make You Look Like a Snapchat Filter" - http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surg...
They do. Even people that are not transgender might get stuck trying to reach a goal that is impossible. What I have is "Gender Dysphoria" because it is strongly linked to my gender identity. However, nobody is safe from "Body Dysmorphic Disorder". There has been a increase in people who go see plastic chirurgeons with such filters as reference images[1].
In my case, that's a wanted effect. By sticking to society's gender stereotypes I increase my ability to pass unnoticed. It is fine for women to not follow those stereotypes. There are strong women, women who like to dress in male clothing, women who wear punk haircuts, sit with their legs spread out, etc. The thing is, those habits often cause people to take notice. In their case, people would look and think "Oh, this woman is punk. I [love/hate] how it looks!". In my case, that's often "Oh god, there is a man in the girl's bathroom. Let's call security!".
I am aware of the stereotypes and hide behind them. That's not to say I never break them. In my daily life, I try to blend in. If I go to a bar and want to stand out? There's nothing stopping me from bending those rules. For example, my large shoulders that are a pain in my day to day life look amazing in studded leather coat.
[1] "Please Don’t Ask a Plastic Surgeon to Make You Look Like a Snapchat Filter" - http://fortune.com/2018/08/03/please-dont-ask-a-plastic-surg...
Interesting, I've never realized how much of it was just wanting to blend in with everyone else. I'm not transgender, but I also feel much less anxious when I'm not standing out, so I can definitely relate there. Thank you for explaining.
Most (some would say all) transgender individuals suffer from gender dysphoria. In short, whenever we are reminded that our body is not like the image in our mind's eye it feels a bit like having a panic attack, being home sick & heart broken at the same time.
The last thing you want to happen is people to actually know that you are transgender, much less misgender you. The transitioning body is not the gender's present in your mind's eye, it is the result of having lived through the wrong puberty. Being made aware of the fact that you are transgender often triggers dysphoria.
Ever heard your voice in a recording and thought "Oh, that's not my voice -- it's just wrong. Must be the recording." and then felt a strong dislike towards that recording? Perhaps a bit of pain or cringe. Well, that's what a lot of transgender individuals experience daily when looking at their own bodies, hearing their own voice, seeing their image in the mirror, looking down at your own hands, etc.
The last thing you want to happen is people to actually know that you are transgender, much less misgender you. The transitioning body is not the gender's present in your mind's eye, it is the result of having lived through the wrong puberty. Being made aware of the fact that you are transgender often triggers dysphoria.
Ever heard your voice in a recording and thought "Oh, that's not my voice -- it's just wrong. Must be the recording." and then felt a strong dislike towards that recording? Perhaps a bit of pain or cringe. Well, that's what a lot of transgender individuals experience daily when looking at their own bodies, hearing their own voice, seeing their image in the mirror, looking down at your own hands, etc.
This is excellent writing. Thanks for articulating this.
That's a really interesting description, thanks. It seems like a very difficult condition and a constant source of anxiety. I struggle to think this is something anyone would choose for themselves.
It makes me very worried for the three year old I know who's mother insists he/she is transgender. That this shouldn't be a trendy thing - but a serious struggle.
It makes me very worried for the three year old I know who's mother insists he/she is transgender. That this shouldn't be a trendy thing - but a serious struggle.
One can choose whether they want to begin a social & hormonal transition but they cannot choose to not have the genetic and biological factors that are at play[1]. I doubt anyone take the decisions lightly. It is a huge burden on your life.
In my case, I have decided to transition after 25 years of successfully living as a male. The burden of not transitioning was compounding with interest and I felt as if waiting any more would result in me being a toxic person both to myself and those surrounding me. Everyone has different factors at play. Personally, I had different hormonal levels than that of a regular male and had some female features as a child (testosterone bulldozes over those during puberty). I have also been told that my body processes estrogen slightly differently than the majority of males.
Three years old is indeed the age where gender identity starts to appear in children. It could be possible that the mother is telling the truth but one cannot say without an actual health professional's advice. It is normal for a child to experience different gender identities at that age since the brain is still forming. Usually the identity begins to solidify around five.
In the case that this identity cause distress in the child (attempting to mutilate themselves, depressive episodes, etc.), they should see a therapist. If there is a diagnostic of gender dysphoria which increase as their body develop, they might choose to use puberty blockers at the start of adolescence to stop the body from going through a puberty that increases this distress. It gives the child and therapist more time to go through those issues. Blockers can be stopped and a regular puberty would occur (with some possible health issue, so you shouldn't prescribe those unless the child is actually suffering). Should the feelings of distress and gender non-conformity still be present, discussion of an actual transition begin around sixteen years old. Children who transition from that path have the chance of not having lived the an extra puberty. It makes their transition easier and makes it less hard for the person to blend in as their actual gender. This avoid a lot of issues which adult transitioner have to struggle with their entire lives and will save on costs (facial feminization surgery, body feminization surgery, voice surgeries, etc.).
[1] A starting point for more information about this could be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Scientific_studies...
In my case, I have decided to transition after 25 years of successfully living as a male. The burden of not transitioning was compounding with interest and I felt as if waiting any more would result in me being a toxic person both to myself and those surrounding me. Everyone has different factors at play. Personally, I had different hormonal levels than that of a regular male and had some female features as a child (testosterone bulldozes over those during puberty). I have also been told that my body processes estrogen slightly differently than the majority of males.
Three years old is indeed the age where gender identity starts to appear in children. It could be possible that the mother is telling the truth but one cannot say without an actual health professional's advice. It is normal for a child to experience different gender identities at that age since the brain is still forming. Usually the identity begins to solidify around five.
In the case that this identity cause distress in the child (attempting to mutilate themselves, depressive episodes, etc.), they should see a therapist. If there is a diagnostic of gender dysphoria which increase as their body develop, they might choose to use puberty blockers at the start of adolescence to stop the body from going through a puberty that increases this distress. It gives the child and therapist more time to go through those issues. Blockers can be stopped and a regular puberty would occur (with some possible health issue, so you shouldn't prescribe those unless the child is actually suffering). Should the feelings of distress and gender non-conformity still be present, discussion of an actual transition begin around sixteen years old. Children who transition from that path have the chance of not having lived the an extra puberty. It makes their transition easier and makes it less hard for the person to blend in as their actual gender. This avoid a lot of issues which adult transitioner have to struggle with their entire lives and will save on costs (facial feminization surgery, body feminization surgery, voice surgeries, etc.).
[1] A starting point for more information about this could be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Scientific_studies...
>If there is a diagnostic of gender dysphoria which increase as their body develop, they might choose to use puberty blockers at the start of adolescence to stop the body from going through a puberty that increases this distress.
Interesting position that we're in as a society where you can't be trusted to make decisions about almost anything thing until you're 18 but would allow a child and help them stunt/alter their physiological growth process because the they insist this is the correct thing for them.
Right or wrong, mental illness or suffering or natural variance aside, it's an tough problem of doing the right thing for the child.
Interesting position that we're in as a society where you can't be trusted to make decisions about almost anything thing until you're 18 but would allow a child and help them stunt/alter their physiological growth process because the they insist this is the correct thing for them.
Right or wrong, mental illness or suffering or natural variance aside, it's an tough problem of doing the right thing for the child.
It may help to think of it as a medical treatment. We don't withhold heart surgery from a child just because they aren't 18 and can't legally consent to it, and likewise we don't withhold treatment for gender dysphoria just because of age.
Note that the diagnostic criteria for this treatment are very strict. It's not gonna accidentally be given to a mere "tomboy".
Note that the diagnostic criteria for this treatment are very strict. It's not gonna accidentally be given to a mere "tomboy".
I used to think like that and then I learned that suicide rate is extremely high among young people with gender dysphoria and these medicines are known to reduce that risk.
> and these medicines are known to reduce that risk
I'd known the first, but I've seen very few sources for actual studies on this. Do you happen to know of any? Even a 5 year study of people transitioning vs people denied the ability to transition would be greatly appreciated. There's a lot of people out there saying that transitioning doesn't lower lifetime suicide risks and I'd love something to push back on that.
I'd known the first, but I've seen very few sources for actual studies on this. Do you happen to know of any? Even a 5 year study of people transitioning vs people denied the ability to transition would be greatly appreciated. There's a lot of people out there saying that transitioning doesn't lower lifetime suicide risks and I'd love something to push back on that.
The population is small and more studies are needed.
I found this:
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-...
Unfortunately the suicide risk is still very high even for post transition trans population.
I found this:
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-...
Unfortunately the suicide risk is still very high even for post transition trans population.
So I'm unfortunately unable to access that paper - well, without paying $32 which is a bit steep - but does it have anything on the difference between people who transitioned and ones who did not? That's what matters after all, not the base rates. (Base rates being high tells us we really need to find a treatment, but it doesn't tell us what that treatment might be)
Most studies focus on how safe the therapy is. The questions are will it cause lifelong issues, how does it affect life expectancy, etc. You would need a study that begins before a diagnostic to be able to have any significant data. Any trans person who is denied transition will likely not be available to participate in such an experiment. Those that were denied that do make it to a scientist or expert would instead promptly begin to transition. It would be unethical to deny them transition for a longer period just to see how it goes.
There's a few that focus on how it increase quality of life but I don't know any hard comparaison.
"The present study suggests a positive effect of hormone therapy on transsexuals' QoL after accounting for confounding factors." [1]
"evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life" [2]
"Psychological evaluation has shown that sex reassignment increases the well-being of transsexuals, but it should not be considered as a cure-all; it is rehabilitative relieving gender dysphoria, but some transsexual subjects may still experience other problems (e.g. comorbid psychiatric problems, social isolation, troubled relationships, prejudice, and discrimination)." [3]
"A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults." [4]
"Using data draw from the follow-up literature covering the last 30 years, and the author's clinical data on 295 men and women after SRS, an estimation of the number of patients who regretted the operations is made. Among female-to-male transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in men, no regrets were reported in the author's sample, and in the literature they amount to less than 1%. Among male-to- female transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in women, regrets are reported in 1-1.5%. Poor differential diagnosis, failure to carry out the real-life- test, and poor surgical results seem to be the main reasons behind the regrets reported in the literature." [5]
---
[1] "Is Hormonal Therapy Associated with Better Quality of Life in Transsexuals? A Cross-Sectional Study" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22145968
[2] "Hormonal therapy and sex reassignment: a systematic review and meta-analysis of quality of life and psychosocial outcomes" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181
[3] "A long-term follow-up study of mortality in transsexuals receiving treatment with cross-sex hormones" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266549
[4] "Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment" https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/4/696
[5] "Regrets After Sex Reassignment Surgery" https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05?jo...
There's a few that focus on how it increase quality of life but I don't know any hard comparaison.
"The present study suggests a positive effect of hormone therapy on transsexuals' QoL after accounting for confounding factors." [1]
"evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life" [2]
"Psychological evaluation has shown that sex reassignment increases the well-being of transsexuals, but it should not be considered as a cure-all; it is rehabilitative relieving gender dysphoria, but some transsexual subjects may still experience other problems (e.g. comorbid psychiatric problems, social isolation, troubled relationships, prejudice, and discrimination)." [3]
"A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults." [4]
"Using data draw from the follow-up literature covering the last 30 years, and the author's clinical data on 295 men and women after SRS, an estimation of the number of patients who regretted the operations is made. Among female-to-male transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in men, no regrets were reported in the author's sample, and in the literature they amount to less than 1%. Among male-to- female transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in women, regrets are reported in 1-1.5%. Poor differential diagnosis, failure to carry out the real-life- test, and poor surgical results seem to be the main reasons behind the regrets reported in the literature." [5]
---
[1] "Is Hormonal Therapy Associated with Better Quality of Life in Transsexuals? A Cross-Sectional Study" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22145968
[2] "Hormonal therapy and sex reassignment: a systematic review and meta-analysis of quality of life and psychosocial outcomes" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181
[3] "A long-term follow-up study of mortality in transsexuals receiving treatment with cross-sex hormones" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266549
[4] "Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment" https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/4/696
[5] "Regrets After Sex Reassignment Surgery" https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05?jo...
> Interesting position that we're in as a society where you can't be trusted to make decisions about almost anything thing until you're 18 but would allow a child and help them stunt/alter their physiological growth process because the they insist this is the correct thing for them.
This seem to be written from the point of view that children improvise their gender identity to get attention, or that gender transition isn't the method used to alleviate the serious mental health issue that is gender dysphoria. It is a lifelong source of anguish and suffering if not treated correctly.
Children have a quite clear idea of their gender and gender dysphoria is usually serious enough so that a professional won't confuse it from something else.
"A total of 55 young transgender adults [...] who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression, when cross-sex hormones were introduced and and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery [...] After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being." [1]
"On both more-controllable self-report measures and less- controllable implicit measures, our group of transgenderchildren showed a clear indication that they thought of themselves in terms of their expressed gender. Their responses were indistinguishable from those of the two cisgender control groups, when matched by gender identity. [...] In summary, our findings refute the assumption that trans- gender children are simply confused by the questions at hand, delayed, pretending, or being oppositional." [2]
"While they may not have had language for it at the time, 59% knew that their gender identity did not match their body before the age of 10, and 80% had this knowledge by the age of 14." [3]
The differential diagnosis of gender dysphoria makes it quite clear that GD is not to be confused with other similar issues which won't require an hormone replacement therapy (body dysmorphia, the transvestism paraphilia, borderline personality disorder and psychosis, Asperger's syndrome possible obsessive preoccupations with gender, etc.).
It is not the child which request how the therapy will go but the health professional. Blockers are used because they are relatively safe and reversible without serious sequelae. When compared to a the lifetime of issues that would happen in the person's life should they go through an extra puberty are considered worth the risk.
[1] Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/4/696
[2] Gender Cognition in Transgender Children"https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761456815...
[3] Challenging the BinaryGender Characteristics of Trans Ontarians http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Trans...
This seem to be written from the point of view that children improvise their gender identity to get attention, or that gender transition isn't the method used to alleviate the serious mental health issue that is gender dysphoria. It is a lifelong source of anguish and suffering if not treated correctly.
Children have a quite clear idea of their gender and gender dysphoria is usually serious enough so that a professional won't confuse it from something else.
"A total of 55 young transgender adults [...] who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression, when cross-sex hormones were introduced and and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery [...] After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being." [1]
"On both more-controllable self-report measures and less- controllable implicit measures, our group of transgenderchildren showed a clear indication that they thought of themselves in terms of their expressed gender. Their responses were indistinguishable from those of the two cisgender control groups, when matched by gender identity. [...] In summary, our findings refute the assumption that trans- gender children are simply confused by the questions at hand, delayed, pretending, or being oppositional." [2]
"While they may not have had language for it at the time, 59% knew that their gender identity did not match their body before the age of 10, and 80% had this knowledge by the age of 14." [3]
The differential diagnosis of gender dysphoria makes it quite clear that GD is not to be confused with other similar issues which won't require an hormone replacement therapy (body dysmorphia, the transvestism paraphilia, borderline personality disorder and psychosis, Asperger's syndrome possible obsessive preoccupations with gender, etc.).
It is not the child which request how the therapy will go but the health professional. Blockers are used because they are relatively safe and reversible without serious sequelae. When compared to a the lifetime of issues that would happen in the person's life should they go through an extra puberty are considered worth the risk.
[1] Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/4/696
[2] Gender Cognition in Transgender Children"https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761456815...
[3] Challenging the BinaryGender Characteristics of Trans Ontarians http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Trans...
>This seem to be written from the point of view that children improvise their gender identity to get attention, or that gender transition isn't the method used to alleviate the serious mental health issue that is gender dysphoria. It is a lifelong source of anguish and suffering if not treated correctly.
Well, two things to that. No, not really. I'm absolutely in agreement that gender dysphoria is real, and causes great suffering. Absolutely.
As to "get attention"... I have a 13yo niece that did exactly this for two months. She was "transgender" and asked people to call her by a different name and pronoun, seemingly dead serious to even her parents - now, you and I probably agree this is just a teenage girl seeking attention on a hot button topic and doesn't have much weight here. But - let's not pretend that someone else might be more committed. To your expected point, this is what a shrink would determine to be the case and we can move past it.
I guess the question I have is how is Gender Dysphoria different from Body Dysphoria?
If you are proposing to treat Gender Dsyphoria in children by giving them drugs to stop the natural development process. Why would anyone treating anorexia with daily supplements to keep them at a dangerously low weight but alive be different?
There is no answer to that because we just flat out don't understand gender dysphoria yet, imo. Phsycology has a replication crisis, so posting phsyc journals and trans blogs isn't doing much for me.
That's not to say I'm an enemy. I just don't agree that we should make changes to the body because of something we don't understand in the mind.
Let me ask you a totally serious question - if tomorrow a pill is released to "fix" gender dsyphoria, it's 100% effective and the person sees their body as their own, hears their voice as their own, etc. Would it be right to treat the symptoms by stopping adolescence or would that be seen as a barbaric / the very wrong thing to do? Would you take that pill or would that in your opinion remove who you are?
My point isn't to suggest there is a fix or will be a pill. It's to understand why gender dysphoria is different than body dysphoria. I suppose there is a great divide in the effects of one are physical and the other are mental. But also we accept that one is a flaw, but are told the other is to be accepted. The extreme of my argument is gay conversion camps which I can assure you is not the case I'm making.
Well, two things to that. No, not really. I'm absolutely in agreement that gender dysphoria is real, and causes great suffering. Absolutely.
As to "get attention"... I have a 13yo niece that did exactly this for two months. She was "transgender" and asked people to call her by a different name and pronoun, seemingly dead serious to even her parents - now, you and I probably agree this is just a teenage girl seeking attention on a hot button topic and doesn't have much weight here. But - let's not pretend that someone else might be more committed. To your expected point, this is what a shrink would determine to be the case and we can move past it.
I guess the question I have is how is Gender Dysphoria different from Body Dysphoria?
If you are proposing to treat Gender Dsyphoria in children by giving them drugs to stop the natural development process. Why would anyone treating anorexia with daily supplements to keep them at a dangerously low weight but alive be different?
There is no answer to that because we just flat out don't understand gender dysphoria yet, imo. Phsycology has a replication crisis, so posting phsyc journals and trans blogs isn't doing much for me.
That's not to say I'm an enemy. I just don't agree that we should make changes to the body because of something we don't understand in the mind.
Let me ask you a totally serious question - if tomorrow a pill is released to "fix" gender dsyphoria, it's 100% effective and the person sees their body as their own, hears their voice as their own, etc. Would it be right to treat the symptoms by stopping adolescence or would that be seen as a barbaric / the very wrong thing to do? Would you take that pill or would that in your opinion remove who you are?
My point isn't to suggest there is a fix or will be a pill. It's to understand why gender dysphoria is different than body dysphoria. I suppose there is a great divide in the effects of one are physical and the other are mental. But also we accept that one is a flaw, but are told the other is to be accepted. The extreme of my argument is gay conversion camps which I can assure you is not the case I'm making.
> As to "get attention"... I have a 13yo niece that did exactly this for two months. She was "transgender" and asked people to call her by a different name and pronoun, seemingly dead serious to even her parents
I doubt that a therapist would have written her a letter of recommendation for an endocrinologist to start puberty blockers or HRT. Children can also claim to hear voices and you do not give them medication for schizophrenia without a diagnosis. Adults can start hormone replacement therapy since the enlightened consent path without a therapist since it allows an adult to make the decisions they see as the best for themselves. No therapist would be caught dead risking their entire career to agree with the whims of a child. I went to therapy as an adult and it was only after two years of monthly visits that they wrote me the recommendation letter. I have read the testimonials of children who claimed to be transgender in such a way and they pretty much all saw their quality of life decrease as their treatment advanced[1]. I don't have the source at hand but I've seen claims that desisters are 2% to 5% of the children who take blockers. That's a very small percentage of a small population (0.6%[2]) so I don't believe that we should see transition as a "danger to children". This is also to be expected since blockers are used to create an environment where the child can calmly explore all options and some of those options are not transitioning.
> I guess the question I have is how is Gender Dysphoria different from Body Dysphoria?
Gender Dysphoria is multifaceted and touch more of a person's life than Body Dysmorphia which I assume is your actual question. "Body dysmorphic disorder involves a distressing or impairing preoccupation with an imagined or slight defect in appearance. Individuals do not consider themselves a different gender, but find a part of their body (possibly the genitalia or breasts) to be abnormal and want them removed."[3] Gender Dysphoria is much more pervasive than that in an individual's life.
Body dysphoria is one of the facets of gender dysphoria. It is not different from gender dysphoria because it is part of it. Gender dysphoria may be experienced as body dysphoria, social dysphoria, or both.
"Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which [...] they identify. People with gender dysphoria may be very uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned, sometimes described as being uncomfortable with their body [...] or being uncomfortable with the expected roles of their assigned gender."[4]
"Gender dysphoria in adults and children is considered a disorder if the person also experiences significant distress or impairment in major areas of life as a result of the incongruence. Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is no longer considered a mental disorder in itself."[5]
Gender dysphoria will flare up from social encounters. A person who has had all the surgeries done and has the physical body of a model of their identified gender will still suffer if put in the opposite gender's roles.
It can also manifest in relation to a person's inner emotional life. A "boy" identifying as female being told to man up while crying is an example. In my case, I had stumped my emotional life to pretty much nothing and was coldly going through the motions.
> If you are proposing to treat Gender Dsyphoria in children by giving them drugs to stop the natural development process.
Puberty blocker are used when the child shows significant distress with their incoming puberty. Suicidal idealization, self-mutilation, substance-related disorders, etc. They are coupled with therapy and will allow the therapist to explore all possible options with the patient without the stress of a ticking clock.
> Why would anyone treating anorexia with daily supplements to keep them at a dangerously low weight but alive be different?
Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is no longer considered a mental disorder in itself. The patient will likely cease to suffer from the destructive effects of gender dysphoria after transition or at the very least reach a point where the issue is manageable when coupled with therapy should the transition stop at a point where the individual is unable to pass as their transitioned gender.
> There is no answer to that because we just flat out don't understand gender dysphoria yet, imo. Phsycology has a replication crisis, so posting phsyc journals and trans blogs isn't doing much for me.
Assuming you meant Trans PULSE project as the "trans blog", possibly because their site is hosted on WordPress? "The Trans PULSE Project is a community-based research (CBR) project that is investigating the impact of social exclusion and discrimination on the health of trans people in Ontario, Canada." See their team's credentials here: http://transpulseproject.ca/about-us/meet-the-team/
If you choose to ignore current research from scientific journal there isn't much I can do to convince you. The literature is not very much exhaustive because this is a relatively new field of study. The "Institut für Sexualwissenschaft" studied the topic back in 1919 and coined the term transsexualism but the Nazi Party launched its purge in 1933, destroyed the research and sent the founders to concentration camps. Source say that around 20,000 books and journals, and 5,000 images, were destroyed. After that, most of the studies were done from the point of view that identifying with a gender different from the one assigned at birth was a disease of the mind. Transgender individuals were mixed up with transvestism and cross-dressers and were seen as fetishist. The research was on how to cure those "poor depraved souls". It is only recently that transgender individuals were recognized as sane individuals.
> I just don't agree that we should make changes to the body because of something we don't understand in the mind.
We may not understand the root cause with certitude but we know that transition raise the quality of life of patients. There has been many studies on the topic and health professionals will collaborate with them based on their experience in the field. I have never seen a study claiming the opposite other than the cases where misdiagnosis are used as if the non transgender patient was transgender and the wording written in such a way as to push a transphobic agenda.
It would be unethical not to attempt to treat a segment of the population that has rates of suicide attempts as high as 40%[6] simply because the exact cause of their issue is undetermined.
All I can do is claim from my anecdotal experience on the topic that my quality of life augmented, my substance-abuse issues stopped, my suicidal idealization and self-mutilation issues ceased and the heavy veil of negativity that was pervasive through my entire life dissipated once my testosterone levels dropped and my estrogen levels raised to cis female levels. It even cured my lifelong addiction to nails biting in the first week of hormonal therapy.
> Let me ask you a totally serious question - if tomorrow a pill is released to "fix" gender dsyphoria, it's 100% effective and the person sees their body as their own, hears their voice as their own, etc. Would it be right to treat the symptoms by stopping adolescence or would that be seen as a barbaric / the very wrong thing to do? Would you take that pill or would that in your opinion remove who you are?
I'm not quite certain what you mean here with "as their own". In the case of a trans person, that would be their identifying gender. Assuming you meant a pill that fully transition you, this is actually a question that is often asked at the beginning of therapy. All the trans individuals I've talked to would take that pill.
If you meant a pill that magically cures gender dysphoria while keeping the person in the body of the gender they do not identify with, then you do not understand the crux of the issue. According to your description, a "male to female" person would perceive their body as a female's and hear their voice as a female's. This might solve the issue if they lived in a vacuum or alone in the wilderness but we live in a society. Everyone else around them would expect male gender's roles from them and their dysphoria would be at its worst. Some transgender individuals I've talked with are already in that very situation, where their own perception tells them "you are looking at a female" but everyone around them sees a male.
Should you mean a pill that rewrites your entire brain, habits, joys and manners along with sexual orientation then I'd say no without any speck of hesitation. The question is often asked to transgender individuals and I've seen many an online poll asking the same thing and most if not all ended up with a strong majority of no's. From my point of view, it is alike to electroshock therapy and frontal cortex ablation straight out of the 1950's. The only persons I've seen answer yes to that are those with abusive families and transphobic environment. They would rather delete their entire life and start over than live through the hate and violence.
Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is not a mental disorder. There is nothing to be cured since it is not a disease. If we lived in a world where body transfer existed, in one where nanobots could rebuild our bodies from the inside or in one where genetic engineering was so evolved that you could change someone's chromosomes this would be a non-issue. Anyone born in a body they do not identify with would simply switch to the right one and the concept of "transgender" would not exist. Gender Dysphoria would not exist either since the new body would be indiscernible from a cis person's eliminating body related dysphoria and nobody would push gender roles or be transphobic which would eliminate sources of social related dysphoria.
I do not transition to be pretty nor I do not transition to become someone else. It is not exciting to transition but rather a chore. The reason I transition is to be myself without filters. To stop fabricating and improvising my life according to gender roles that are not natural to me. My entire life up to this point has been an exhausting constant imitation and mimicry of behaviors that does not come intuitively to me. Now I can simply stop thinking about anything, be my unadulterated self and fit one of society's box without effort -- that of a woman. In the same way that living your life as your current gender does not cause you any distress, exhaustion or ask any effort out of you.
> [...] That's not to say I'm an enemy. [...]
Never said or had the impression you were.
[1] https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/2019/05/transgenre-sexe-det...
[2] How Many Adults Identify as Transgender in the United States" http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How...
[3] https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2015/november/gender-dysphoria/
[4] https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
[5] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/conditions/gender-dysphor...
[6] James, S. E., Herman, J. L., Rankin, S., Keisling, M., Mottet, L., & Anafi, M. (2016). The Report of the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey. Washington, DC: National Center for Transgender Equality.
I doubt that a therapist would have written her a letter of recommendation for an endocrinologist to start puberty blockers or HRT. Children can also claim to hear voices and you do not give them medication for schizophrenia without a diagnosis. Adults can start hormone replacement therapy since the enlightened consent path without a therapist since it allows an adult to make the decisions they see as the best for themselves. No therapist would be caught dead risking their entire career to agree with the whims of a child. I went to therapy as an adult and it was only after two years of monthly visits that they wrote me the recommendation letter. I have read the testimonials of children who claimed to be transgender in such a way and they pretty much all saw their quality of life decrease as their treatment advanced[1]. I don't have the source at hand but I've seen claims that desisters are 2% to 5% of the children who take blockers. That's a very small percentage of a small population (0.6%[2]) so I don't believe that we should see transition as a "danger to children". This is also to be expected since blockers are used to create an environment where the child can calmly explore all options and some of those options are not transitioning.
> I guess the question I have is how is Gender Dysphoria different from Body Dysphoria?
Gender Dysphoria is multifaceted and touch more of a person's life than Body Dysmorphia which I assume is your actual question. "Body dysmorphic disorder involves a distressing or impairing preoccupation with an imagined or slight defect in appearance. Individuals do not consider themselves a different gender, but find a part of their body (possibly the genitalia or breasts) to be abnormal and want them removed."[3] Gender Dysphoria is much more pervasive than that in an individual's life.
Body dysphoria is one of the facets of gender dysphoria. It is not different from gender dysphoria because it is part of it. Gender dysphoria may be experienced as body dysphoria, social dysphoria, or both.
"Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which [...] they identify. People with gender dysphoria may be very uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned, sometimes described as being uncomfortable with their body [...] or being uncomfortable with the expected roles of their assigned gender."[4]
"Gender dysphoria in adults and children is considered a disorder if the person also experiences significant distress or impairment in major areas of life as a result of the incongruence. Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is no longer considered a mental disorder in itself."[5]
Gender dysphoria will flare up from social encounters. A person who has had all the surgeries done and has the physical body of a model of their identified gender will still suffer if put in the opposite gender's roles.
It can also manifest in relation to a person's inner emotional life. A "boy" identifying as female being told to man up while crying is an example. In my case, I had stumped my emotional life to pretty much nothing and was coldly going through the motions.
> If you are proposing to treat Gender Dsyphoria in children by giving them drugs to stop the natural development process.
Puberty blocker are used when the child shows significant distress with their incoming puberty. Suicidal idealization, self-mutilation, substance-related disorders, etc. They are coupled with therapy and will allow the therapist to explore all possible options with the patient without the stress of a ticking clock.
> Why would anyone treating anorexia with daily supplements to keep them at a dangerously low weight but alive be different?
Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is no longer considered a mental disorder in itself. The patient will likely cease to suffer from the destructive effects of gender dysphoria after transition or at the very least reach a point where the issue is manageable when coupled with therapy should the transition stop at a point where the individual is unable to pass as their transitioned gender.
> There is no answer to that because we just flat out don't understand gender dysphoria yet, imo. Phsycology has a replication crisis, so posting phsyc journals and trans blogs isn't doing much for me.
Assuming you meant Trans PULSE project as the "trans blog", possibly because their site is hosted on WordPress? "The Trans PULSE Project is a community-based research (CBR) project that is investigating the impact of social exclusion and discrimination on the health of trans people in Ontario, Canada." See their team's credentials here: http://transpulseproject.ca/about-us/meet-the-team/
If you choose to ignore current research from scientific journal there isn't much I can do to convince you. The literature is not very much exhaustive because this is a relatively new field of study. The "Institut für Sexualwissenschaft" studied the topic back in 1919 and coined the term transsexualism but the Nazi Party launched its purge in 1933, destroyed the research and sent the founders to concentration camps. Source say that around 20,000 books and journals, and 5,000 images, were destroyed. After that, most of the studies were done from the point of view that identifying with a gender different from the one assigned at birth was a disease of the mind. Transgender individuals were mixed up with transvestism and cross-dressers and were seen as fetishist. The research was on how to cure those "poor depraved souls". It is only recently that transgender individuals were recognized as sane individuals.
> I just don't agree that we should make changes to the body because of something we don't understand in the mind.
We may not understand the root cause with certitude but we know that transition raise the quality of life of patients. There has been many studies on the topic and health professionals will collaborate with them based on their experience in the field. I have never seen a study claiming the opposite other than the cases where misdiagnosis are used as if the non transgender patient was transgender and the wording written in such a way as to push a transphobic agenda.
It would be unethical not to attempt to treat a segment of the population that has rates of suicide attempts as high as 40%[6] simply because the exact cause of their issue is undetermined.
All I can do is claim from my anecdotal experience on the topic that my quality of life augmented, my substance-abuse issues stopped, my suicidal idealization and self-mutilation issues ceased and the heavy veil of negativity that was pervasive through my entire life dissipated once my testosterone levels dropped and my estrogen levels raised to cis female levels. It even cured my lifelong addiction to nails biting in the first week of hormonal therapy.
> Let me ask you a totally serious question - if tomorrow a pill is released to "fix" gender dsyphoria, it's 100% effective and the person sees their body as their own, hears their voice as their own, etc. Would it be right to treat the symptoms by stopping adolescence or would that be seen as a barbaric / the very wrong thing to do? Would you take that pill or would that in your opinion remove who you are?
I'm not quite certain what you mean here with "as their own". In the case of a trans person, that would be their identifying gender. Assuming you meant a pill that fully transition you, this is actually a question that is often asked at the beginning of therapy. All the trans individuals I've talked to would take that pill.
If you meant a pill that magically cures gender dysphoria while keeping the person in the body of the gender they do not identify with, then you do not understand the crux of the issue. According to your description, a "male to female" person would perceive their body as a female's and hear their voice as a female's. This might solve the issue if they lived in a vacuum or alone in the wilderness but we live in a society. Everyone else around them would expect male gender's roles from them and their dysphoria would be at its worst. Some transgender individuals I've talked with are already in that very situation, where their own perception tells them "you are looking at a female" but everyone around them sees a male.
Should you mean a pill that rewrites your entire brain, habits, joys and manners along with sexual orientation then I'd say no without any speck of hesitation. The question is often asked to transgender individuals and I've seen many an online poll asking the same thing and most if not all ended up with a strong majority of no's. From my point of view, it is alike to electroshock therapy and frontal cortex ablation straight out of the 1950's. The only persons I've seen answer yes to that are those with abusive families and transphobic environment. They would rather delete their entire life and start over than live through the hate and violence.
Identifying with a gender different from the one that was assigned is not a mental disorder. There is nothing to be cured since it is not a disease. If we lived in a world where body transfer existed, in one where nanobots could rebuild our bodies from the inside or in one where genetic engineering was so evolved that you could change someone's chromosomes this would be a non-issue. Anyone born in a body they do not identify with would simply switch to the right one and the concept of "transgender" would not exist. Gender Dysphoria would not exist either since the new body would be indiscernible from a cis person's eliminating body related dysphoria and nobody would push gender roles or be transphobic which would eliminate sources of social related dysphoria.
I do not transition to be pretty nor I do not transition to become someone else. It is not exciting to transition but rather a chore. The reason I transition is to be myself without filters. To stop fabricating and improvising my life according to gender roles that are not natural to me. My entire life up to this point has been an exhausting constant imitation and mimicry of behaviors that does not come intuitively to me. Now I can simply stop thinking about anything, be my unadulterated self and fit one of society's box without effort -- that of a woman. In the same way that living your life as your current gender does not cause you any distress, exhaustion or ask any effort out of you.
> [...] That's not to say I'm an enemy. [...]
Never said or had the impression you were.
[1] https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/2019/05/transgenre-sexe-det...
[2] How Many Adults Identify as Transgender in the United States" http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How...
[3] https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2015/november/gender-dysphoria/
[4] https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
[5] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/conditions/gender-dysphor...
[6] James, S. E., Herman, J. L., Rankin, S., Keisling, M., Mottet, L., & Anafi, M. (2016). The Report of the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey. Washington, DC: National Center for Transgender Equality.
Isn't there also good to be had here, because it could normalize the concept of transgenderism, drag, etc.?
I've met quite a few people who told me that they questioned their gender identity after playing with such a filter.
That's a good thing, it allows people with an otherwise strong sense of their own gender identity to have a small glimpse into what a gender identity disorder could be like. For a cis person, this happens when an AI morph their features into the opposite gender. For a person with a gender identity disorder, this happen with regular mirrors. It's two very different experience, but the sour taste in your mouth is similar.
It is easier to have empathy for something you have experienced the tip of. Similar to how someone with a broken heart will be able to empathize with the struggles of someone with clinical depression.
That's a good thing, it allows people with an otherwise strong sense of their own gender identity to have a small glimpse into what a gender identity disorder could be like. For a cis person, this happens when an AI morph their features into the opposite gender. For a person with a gender identity disorder, this happen with regular mirrors. It's two very different experience, but the sour taste in your mouth is similar.
It is easier to have empathy for something you have experienced the tip of. Similar to how someone with a broken heart will be able to empathize with the struggles of someone with clinical depression.
Are there other online Machine Learning apps out there for this? Or is Snap-Chat the only one?
I remember back in the VRML/SecondLife heyday where you could pick an avatar that was another gender. I still do that. But the emphasis for voice chat in modern games and MMORPGs make it far more difficult. A low gruff voice does not bode well coming from a feminine avatar. Catches too many off guard.
I remember back in the VRML/SecondLife heyday where you could pick an avatar that was another gender. I still do that. But the emphasis for voice chat in modern games and MMORPGs make it far more difficult. A low gruff voice does not bode well coming from a feminine avatar. Catches too many off guard.
My company, Modulate, is building "voice skins" for exactly this purpose: customizing your voice in chat for online videogames!
It's a really interesting technical challenge. On the one hand, changing your timbre to another human voice is much more complicated than basic pitch shifting, so we ended up using deep neural networks for a kind of simultaneous speech-recognition and speech-synthesis approach (though training this system to preserve e.g. the emotional complexity of your input speech while still changing out the timbre convincingly is difficult - we use adversarial training on the raw audio waveform, which is powerful but also pretty much unknown territory compared to images).
On the other hand, it's important to run with very low latency on your device while you're playing, which means that we can't simply "throw the biggest network we can" at the problem. So we have a tradeoff between model latency, which is easy to characterize, and audio quality / voice skin plausibility, which is pretty ambiguous and subjective.
Finally, as this kind of tech improves the potential for misuse becomes an important problem, so we need to build in protections (like watermarking the audio) that can help prevent fraud while not compromising the speed of the algorithm or the quality of the output audio.
It's a really interesting technical challenge. On the one hand, changing your timbre to another human voice is much more complicated than basic pitch shifting, so we ended up using deep neural networks for a kind of simultaneous speech-recognition and speech-synthesis approach (though training this system to preserve e.g. the emotional complexity of your input speech while still changing out the timbre convincingly is difficult - we use adversarial training on the raw audio waveform, which is powerful but also pretty much unknown territory compared to images).
On the other hand, it's important to run with very low latency on your device while you're playing, which means that we can't simply "throw the biggest network we can" at the problem. So we have a tradeoff between model latency, which is easy to characterize, and audio quality / voice skin plausibility, which is pretty ambiguous and subjective.
Finally, as this kind of tech improves the potential for misuse becomes an important problem, so we need to build in protections (like watermarking the audio) that can help prevent fraud while not compromising the speed of the algorithm or the quality of the output audio.
Interesting approach; is your system low enough latency to avoid the delayed audio feedback problem?
> Finally, as this kind of tech improves the potential for misuse becomes an important problem, so we need to build in protections (like watermarking the audio) that can help prevent fraud while not compromising the speed of the algorithm or the quality of the output audio.
Legitamate question: (absolutely not rhetorical, I don't know the answer!)
What the potential misuse of a gender voice changer? If someone wants to change their perceived gender in a video game (presumably to avoid harassment), should that be detectable? If both genders should ideally receive identical treatment anyway, is there any harm in swapping?
Legitamate question: (absolutely not rhetorical, I don't know the answer!)
What the potential misuse of a gender voice changer? If someone wants to change their perceived gender in a video game (presumably to avoid harassment), should that be detectable? If both genders should ideally receive identical treatment anyway, is there any harm in swapping?
I should definitely expand a bit: the voice skins that we're building give you a _specific_ person's timbre (or you can do some cool "voice space" vector manipulations to combine timbres). The cool application here is being able to sound like a character or celebrity in the game, but the risk of misuse for having a specific person's vocal cords is much greater than that for just swapping your gender.
That said, there _are_ some interesting things to be careful around, even for changing your gender, or age, or other basic variables around your voice. We're mostly worried about what impact this would have for communities built around these kinds of commonalities: for example, is it okay for a child to masquerade as an adult in an adults-only social group? I don't think there's a clear answer to all of those situations - but until we see more use of realistic voice skins in the real world, we're playing it safe and building in these kinds of tools!
That said, there _are_ some interesting things to be careful around, even for changing your gender, or age, or other basic variables around your voice. We're mostly worried about what impact this would have for communities built around these kinds of commonalities: for example, is it okay for a child to masquerade as an adult in an adults-only social group? I don't think there's a clear answer to all of those situations - but until we see more use of realistic voice skins in the real world, we're playing it safe and building in these kinds of tools!
Catfish (verb) - lure (someone) into a relationship by means of a fictional online persona.
> Are there other online Machine Learning apps out there for this?
Faceapp comes to mind[1]. There's also Artistry Virtual Beauty[2] but it is a bit less advanced. I believe that Facebook Messenger also have some similar features.
> A low gruff voice does not bode well coming from a feminine avatar. Catches too many off guard.
A lot of sound cards those days come with tools that allow you to modify your audio input. Often, they'll have a female settings where it changes the pitch to make your voice sound more like a woman's.
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.faceapp&hl=...
[2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.perfectcor...
Faceapp comes to mind[1]. There's also Artistry Virtual Beauty[2] but it is a bit less advanced. I believe that Facebook Messenger also have some similar features.
> A low gruff voice does not bode well coming from a feminine avatar. Catches too many off guard.
A lot of sound cards those days come with tools that allow you to modify your audio input. Often, they'll have a female settings where it changes the pitch to make your voice sound more like a woman's.
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.faceapp&hl=...
[2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.perfectcor...
There's software out there to dynamically change your voice on the fly.
Snapchat have filters that do that too.
I appreciate seeing posts like this as someone who doesn't use any of these apps themselves. It's intriguing what we're already able to accomplish in this area with sufficient funding and data, it makes the future seem very interesting.
Physical gender stereotypes? The differences in physical appearance, like the shape of the bones in your face and the fact some people have penises and other people have vaginas, caused by activation of the SRY gene (the sex determinism gene), are not social constructs.
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19900606 and marked it off-topic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19900606 and marked it off-topic.
Physical gender stereotypes are things like hair length/style, whether makeup is applied, eyebrow grooming etc--all things that these apps are doing. These are not determined by sex. They are physical gender stereotypes, and are social constructs. Apps like these are upholding those stereotypes.
I'll put it another way. If apps like these were framed with a right-wing narrative of "this is what men should look like" and "this is what women should look like," people would be furious. But that's exactly what these apps are implying right now yet I don't see anyone speaking out against them.
I'll put it another way. If apps like these were framed with a right-wing narrative of "this is what men should look like" and "this is what women should look like," people would be furious. But that's exactly what these apps are implying right now yet I don't see anyone speaking out against them.
s_kilk(2)
I don't usually pay attention to things like this, but I have a younger sister who uses Snapchat. She used this filter and the output was essentially a perfect photo of our brother, but with longer hair. I couldn't help but be impressed.
What about the brother -> sister mapping?
Wasn't anywhere close.
[deleted]
Judging from my family's group chat that also works really well.
It's fantastic to see how far this tech came in such a short time.
It's also scary, because soon it will be very dificult to trust anything you see in video. What now demands a big CGI budget, will be possible to do with a simple App.
It's also scary, because soon it will be very dificult to trust anything you see in video. What now demands a big CGI budget, will be possible to do with a simple App.
I would argue it's a good thing. This was already possible for people with a lot of money, but nobody knew about it because it was so rarely done. When anyone can do it, these fake videos will become common and people will realize you can't trust it just because it's in a video. The only drawback is that there will be an awkward period where smart people can do it but most people can't, so nobody realizes what's going on.
There's still tells. 80% realism is still far enough away to be unrealistic. There's lots of places it breaks. I think soon is still at least 20 years away. And 20 years away in technology is basically never. Reality is very very detailed and we've been optimized in our evolution to get to that fine grit quickly.
It doesn't entirely apply, but here's an article (one of many) on telling deep fakes: https://www.howtogeek.com/341469/how-to-spot-a-deep-fake-fac...
Also this short one on playing with a robo-call: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread988484/pg1
It doesn't entirely apply, but here's an article (one of many) on telling deep fakes: https://www.howtogeek.com/341469/how-to-spot-a-deep-fake-fac...
Also this short one on playing with a robo-call: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread988484/pg1
That is just crazy impressive to me. I'm not a fan of those kind of apps myself but it's pretty cool what they're engineers get to spend time on.
Did the post get deleted? Getting a 404.
It's a shame it got deleted. From the web archive, it looks like an interesting, in-depth exploration of the filter.
I wonder if Snap offered him a job to take it down.
If anything, it is free advertising. Not sure why they would be bothered.
My bad, I accidentally unpublished it with my butter fingers.
it's down for me.
What an awesome thing. This is probably a rare example of using technologies like machine learning and face recognition for good.
Also, it means that we cannot trust photos anymore.
Also, it means that we cannot trust photos anymore.
> What an awesome thing. This is probably a rare example of using technologies like machine learning and face recognition for good. Also, it means that we cannot trust photos anymore.
You can't trust any social media anymore.
Between Lyrebird, GPT-2, Deep Fakes, Sybil attacks on social media sites, and abusing Facebook/Google targeted advertising to leak targeting information on anyone, any sufficiently motivated individual, group or nation state has enough power to locate audiences and reorient them through tailor-made content to the attacker's objectives.
Today's cat-picture-viewing joke-seeking social media user faces adversaries who can deploy coordinated attacks from multiple points-of-origin (via Sybil clones) using multiple mediums (via audio, video, text generation) against specific targets without collateral damage to non-targeted audiences (target discovery via surveillance platforms like Facebook, Google). The information weapons deployed can change minds, destroy relationships with family members, undermine friendships, cause confusion, addict, and waste time that could be spent organizing against the attacker's policies.
In your profile, you state that you're a Russian developer. Consider that it's known that the Russian government interfered with American elections using these divide-and-conquer techniques. Consider that we have to question whether or not your profile is a Sybil account designed to slightly shift the perspective of HN readers towards the idea that Russians are not undermining elections by presenting the idea that educated Russians are naive to the threat. Likewise, consider that this response might be a cointel operation. One can _hope_ that you're genuine, but that's about it.
Sadly, the untrustworthiness goes far beyond photos.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/05/13/deepfakes-why...
You can't trust any social media anymore.
Between Lyrebird, GPT-2, Deep Fakes, Sybil attacks on social media sites, and abusing Facebook/Google targeted advertising to leak targeting information on anyone, any sufficiently motivated individual, group or nation state has enough power to locate audiences and reorient them through tailor-made content to the attacker's objectives.
Today's cat-picture-viewing joke-seeking social media user faces adversaries who can deploy coordinated attacks from multiple points-of-origin (via Sybil clones) using multiple mediums (via audio, video, text generation) against specific targets without collateral damage to non-targeted audiences (target discovery via surveillance platforms like Facebook, Google). The information weapons deployed can change minds, destroy relationships with family members, undermine friendships, cause confusion, addict, and waste time that could be spent organizing against the attacker's policies.
In your profile, you state that you're a Russian developer. Consider that it's known that the Russian government interfered with American elections using these divide-and-conquer techniques. Consider that we have to question whether or not your profile is a Sybil account designed to slightly shift the perspective of HN readers towards the idea that Russians are not undermining elections by presenting the idea that educated Russians are naive to the threat. Likewise, consider that this response might be a cointel operation. One can _hope_ that you're genuine, but that's about it.
Sadly, the untrustworthiness goes far beyond photos.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/05/13/deepfakes-why...
[deleted]
Strange, I can still call this up at the original address at the moment. Just in case: http://archive.is/lTgGj
I really wonder why he ended up deleting the post.
Edit: It's back up again.
Edit: It's back up again.
For shits and giggles, I installed Snapchat just to play with this, after seeing some friends having fun with it.
For background, I am guy, but with long hair and a beard. I wouldn't look out of place in a mosh pit at a heavy metal show. I've also been told I look like Jesus.
To my amusement, my beard and hair seem to break the female face filter. I take picture with it, and nothing changes. Conversely, if I use the male face filter there's quite a difference. My hair gets trimmed, my beard is darkened and my jawline made more square than it already was. The male filter still gets confused by my hair and fails to remove all of it much below my jawline; I can still see my natural hair transitioning back into existence about my neck and shoulders.
This makes me think that the filters are mainly working on hair length, or perhaps me already having hair short-circuits the filter and it forgets to address my cheekbones, jawline, lips, nose and brow.
Scratch all of that. It just worked properly. Compared to the male filter, it did soften my jawline, blur away my beard, and kept my natural lighter hair color (though it took away my natural curls). It could have stood to reduced the size of my nose. Still in the uncanny valley for me, but much closer to crossing that threshold in than some other filters I've seen in the past.
For background, I am guy, but with long hair and a beard. I wouldn't look out of place in a mosh pit at a heavy metal show. I've also been told I look like Jesus.
To my amusement, my beard and hair seem to break the female face filter. I take picture with it, and nothing changes. Conversely, if I use the male face filter there's quite a difference. My hair gets trimmed, my beard is darkened and my jawline made more square than it already was. The male filter still gets confused by my hair and fails to remove all of it much below my jawline; I can still see my natural hair transitioning back into existence about my neck and shoulders.
This makes me think that the filters are mainly working on hair length, or perhaps me already having hair short-circuits the filter and it forgets to address my cheekbones, jawline, lips, nose and brow.
Scratch all of that. It just worked properly. Compared to the male filter, it did soften my jawline, blur away my beard, and kept my natural lighter hair color (though it took away my natural curls). It could have stood to reduced the size of my nose. Still in the uncanny valley for me, but much closer to crossing that threshold in than some other filters I've seen in the past.
Anyone know if this has been implemented for a task like this?