Women are struggling to find men who make as much money as they do(nypost.com)
nypost.com
Women are struggling to find men who make as much money as they do
https://nypost.com/2019/09/25/women-are-struggling-to-find-men-who-make-as-much-money-as-they-do/
72 comments
I think this is a bigger problem than just economics, it's a cultural one too. You have a entire generation of boys/teens/men who either grew up with or are growing up with an endless amount of entertainment (games, movies, shows, music, porn, drugs), the consequences of outsourcing and automation, and the rise of feminism/PC-culture. All at one time, of course many are giving up or just opting out.
I've dated women I thought I wanted. One was a very attractive girl who was into astronomy and whose movie was Jurassic Park. She also had Borderline Personality Disorder. I recently dated an older woman who is a musician and a hardcore vegan, I parted ways with her because I realized I would never be able to live up their list for a 'perfect partner'.
I'm 29, maybe I'll settle down in my 30's. Maybe not. I honestly don't know. I don't think being married is for everyone. I have some friends and family who are married, they don't always seem happier. If anything, some of them seem trapped.
For now, creativity, learning, and travel are more fulfilling to me than dating, meaningless sex, chasing women.
I've dated women I thought I wanted. One was a very attractive girl who was into astronomy and whose movie was Jurassic Park. She also had Borderline Personality Disorder. I recently dated an older woman who is a musician and a hardcore vegan, I parted ways with her because I realized I would never be able to live up their list for a 'perfect partner'.
I'm 29, maybe I'll settle down in my 30's. Maybe not. I honestly don't know. I don't think being married is for everyone. I have some friends and family who are married, they don't always seem happier. If anything, some of them seem trapped.
For now, creativity, learning, and travel are more fulfilling to me than dating, meaningless sex, chasing women.
Things change after both sexes around 27. Your demand as an older male will cross hers as as younger woman. You're 29. Wait.
I'm not worried about meeting women at all, I meet them all the time without putting in much effort. I'm just not sold on the idea of a wife and kids anymore, I used to think I 'had to' have that to be complete. I'm open to whatever life presents now as I go into my 30's.
That's fine. You're not under any biological pressure. As long as you're physically fit you have time to change your mind if you wish to do so.
I make good money (being a reasonably able software dev), and though physically attracted to women, am not interested in them, and haven't been for over a decade now. I was somewhat successful in my youth, but certainly no cassanova.
I find chasing and/or engaging in romantic relationships with women costs me far more than I estimate their worth at (the relationship, not the women themselves). And I'm not just talking money. I'm talking time, freedom, responsibility, cognitive cycles, etc. I think my time is best spent elsewhere on hobbies or video games or mindless entertainment or work.
I find chasing and/or engaging in romantic relationships with women costs me far more than I estimate their worth at (the relationship, not the women themselves). And I'm not just talking money. I'm talking time, freedom, responsibility, cognitive cycles, etc. I think my time is best spent elsewhere on hobbies or video games or mindless entertainment or work.
Maybe you'll come across somebody where the relationship is worth it later if you keep your mind open.
I laughed at "I think my time is best spent elsewhere on ... mindless entertainment".
Not saying you need it, but the world can be a pretty lonely place if you don't have anyone to share it with. Maybe there is someone who you can enjoy the same mindless entertainment with. :-)
You do you though. You're the only one who can.
I laughed at "I think my time is best spent elsewhere on ... mindless entertainment".
Not saying you need it, but the world can be a pretty lonely place if you don't have anyone to share it with. Maybe there is someone who you can enjoy the same mindless entertainment with. :-)
You do you though. You're the only one who can.
Doublful. I don't really go places where one would meet women.
Women are everywhere. You have to get outside sometimes!
I presume you've heard of the https://www.mgtow.com community/movement?
Sure, but I don't identify with it. I haven't really been hurt past, you know, hey I like this girl and she doesn't like me boo hoo.
Just don't find the pursuit or the time dedications or the impact on my life worth it.
Just don't find the pursuit or the time dedications or the impact on my life worth it.
It's not, unless you want to start a family. Then the whole vetting process disguised as "dating" is kind of important with significant life-changing returns.
Personally I decided I didn't want kids decades ago, it drastically changed the distribution of priorities. I, like you, simply can't be bothered with dating now. It's just not worth the time and effort, risk of STDs, risk of pregnancy, risk of crazy, drama, etc.
Having said that however, there is something to be said for having a reliable partner in old age when hospital visits and navigating the healthcare system becomes a regular activity. It's problematic to be alone in a hospital, for a variety of reasons.
Personally I decided I didn't want kids decades ago, it drastically changed the distribution of priorities. I, like you, simply can't be bothered with dating now. It's just not worth the time and effort, risk of STDs, risk of pregnancy, risk of crazy, drama, etc.
Having said that however, there is something to be said for having a reliable partner in old age when hospital visits and navigating the healthcare system becomes a regular activity. It's problematic to be alone in a hospital, for a variety of reasons.
The truth is that it's not. Good on ya
Wow that's some sad cringy stuff. That's enough internet for this week.
My opinion: Heterosexual women default to seeking good providers because if pregnancy happens, whether planned or not, that can make it impossible to sustain a hard charging career for the woman.
Pregnancy can be debilitating. Women are more likely than men to take time off work to care for the new baby. Breastfeeding is done by women.
These are practical issues that make it hard to not feel on some deep level like you really need a man who is capable of earning enough money to support you, him and a child if things do not go according to plan. If she is play the primary breadwinner role, gets pregnant and things go sideways, then what?
(Opinion of a woman. N=1, though.)
Pregnancy can be debilitating. Women are more likely than men to take time off work to care for the new baby. Breastfeeding is done by women.
These are practical issues that make it hard to not feel on some deep level like you really need a man who is capable of earning enough money to support you, him and a child if things do not go according to plan. If she is play the primary breadwinner role, gets pregnant and things go sideways, then what?
(Opinion of a woman. N=1, though.)
I think my comment is going to be pointless, but... As a male, I would love to take time off work to care for the baby. Only after a minimum 6 months of breastfeeding, ideally 2 years with appropriate complementary feeding, of course. That said, if we can afford it, I would love to be there at all times. :P These years matter so much for the child's development. Plus, it is not like I would not be there for them when I am off work, but yeah.
It's a simple statement of fact that women tend to take more time off than men for such things. It is in no way a suggestion that this is what men or women actually want.
I think a lot of it is driven by practical considerations. Taking any time off work can undermine your earning capacity, so if you have a primary breadwinner in the family, it gets hard to make that choice.
I would love to help foster a world where this worked differently. But, for now, this is generally how it works for most people.
I think a lot of it is driven by practical considerations. Taking any time off work can undermine your earning capacity, so if you have a primary breadwinner in the family, it gets hard to make that choice.
I would love to help foster a world where this worked differently. But, for now, this is generally how it works for most people.
> It's a simple statement of fact that women tend to take more time off than men for such things. It is in no way a suggestion that this is what men or women actually want.
I was not at all disagreeing or making a comment regarding that. I just merely expressed my wants, hence why I started with stating that it is going to be a pointless comment. :)
I was not at all disagreeing or making a comment regarding that. I just merely expressed my wants, hence why I started with stating that it is going to be a pointless comment. :)
Eh, not arguing either. Just trying to be clear and trying to say "I would love to help create a world in which you could do that."
No worries, and thank you for that! I hope you succeed, I (and I am sure a lot of other people!) would really love that.
I wish someone would make a definitive meta study where they take the median wage for a country and poll women there if they require a higher income from potential partners before considering marriage.
From what I have seen those poll numbers tend to stay the same regardless of the median income in any given country, which implies that practical aspects is simply an rationale to explain an already made decision. If practical reasons was the primary cause we would expect to see a higher poll numbers in low income countries and a significant lower poll number in countries with high median income and strong well fare system. With free medical care, guarantied housing and food, the risks are reduced and thus preventative measures like only seeking good providers should be of relative lower importance.
From what I have seen those poll numbers tend to stay the same regardless of the median income in any given country, which implies that practical aspects is simply an rationale to explain an already made decision. If practical reasons was the primary cause we would expect to see a higher poll numbers in low income countries and a significant lower poll number in countries with high median income and strong well fare system. With free medical care, guarantied housing and food, the risks are reduced and thus preventative measures like only seeking good providers should be of relative lower importance.
The actual study:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jomf.12603
Really the most suprissing part is that a large portion of unmarried men, age 25-45, make <$25,000 a year.
Really the most suprissing part is that a large portion of unmarried men, age 25-45, make <$25,000 a year.
> Really the most suprissing part is that a large portion of unmarried men, age 25-45, make <$25,000 a year.
Swap cause and effect and it's no longer surprising. Men who don't make a lot of money have a hard time getting married.
That's been that way since the dawn of humanity, and should not surprise anyone.
Swap cause and effect and it's no longer surprising. Men who don't make a lot of money have a hard time getting married.
That's been that way since the dawn of humanity, and should not surprise anyone.
We generally had wars and famines and plagues to deal with them, though.
Also heard a statistic that the average guy is less likely to graduate from HS and University than a women of similar age/class/race/etc. Degrees directly correlate to $$$, and ladies are doing a better job of getting them, though they still tend to choose non-STEM degrees and roles.
Also heard a statistic that the average guy is less likely to graduate from HS and University than a women of similar age/class/race/etc. Degrees directly correlate to $$$, and ladies are doing a better job of getting them, though they still tend to choose non-STEM degrees and roles.
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A large portion of unmarried men on are disability/work off the books I'd wager.
I can't see the pdf, is there a free copy available somewhere?
The problem is that women who make a good amount of money cannot always land a man who is financially successful.
A 30 year old man with a good career and assets will try to date the 23 year old who looks like a fitness model. That's not to say women who make money cannot look like fitness models. There are just few of them because time is a limited resource.
The other part is that men are not on a certain timeline. A man can could spend his 30s and 20s casually dating, then get married at 45 and have kids. Whereas women try to get married before 30, so then she can have a kid or two before it's too late. Sure 35 year old women can get pregnant, but it's common to have miscarriages at that age.
A 30 year old man with a good career and assets will try to date the 23 year old who looks like a fitness model. That's not to say women who make money cannot look like fitness models. There are just few of them because time is a limited resource.
The other part is that men are not on a certain timeline. A man can could spend his 30s and 20s casually dating, then get married at 45 and have kids. Whereas women try to get married before 30, so then she can have a kid or two before it's too late. Sure 35 year old women can get pregnant, but it's common to have miscarriages at that age.
> A 30 year old man with a good career and assets will try to date the 23 year old who looks like a fitness model.
These men sound very shallow
These men sound very shallow
What you call shallow, other people with abundant dating options might call utility maximization.
Women marry up or across on the social ladder. Men marry across or down on the social ladder.
Does it also follow that all women are going for the top 20% of men? Or is this debunked
Actually, this is false. IIRC, it seems that most women on OkCupid considered 80% of men under-average, but still messaged them. Which is strange to say the least.
These guys may be not the most attractive but 1) they may be all that is out there, 2) ladies are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt ("maybe he just has bad pictures?"), and 3) maybe that's all they think they can get. Nothing crazy or irrational about it.
When it's 2am and the bar is closing you hit on who you think you can go home with, not the absolute hottest person in the bar.
When it's 2am and the bar is closing you hit on who you think you can go home with, not the absolute hottest person in the bar.
Probably is true within hookup culture. Not that I would know.
> “Now it’s the case that more highly educated women are marrying down,” says Lichter. “Men have to get with the program.”
This....is unlikely to happen. Men will simply exit the dating market faster than women will tolerate that they have to settle (similar to a cooling housing market where buyers go elsewhere because sellers aren’t motivated).
EDIT: User "rblion" explains why in this thread very well: "I think this is a bigger problem than just economics, it's a cultural one too. You have a entire generation of boys/teens/men who either grew up with or are growing up with an endless amount of entertainment (games, movies, shows, music, porn, drugs), the consequences of outsourcing and automation, and the rise of feminism/PC-culture. All at one time, of course many are giving up or just opting out."
If you can barely hold onto the socioeconomic ladder already, are you going to be a masochist and try to meet your partner's (likely high) expectations as well? Probably not.
This....is unlikely to happen. Men will simply exit the dating market faster than women will tolerate that they have to settle (similar to a cooling housing market where buyers go elsewhere because sellers aren’t motivated).
EDIT: User "rblion" explains why in this thread very well: "I think this is a bigger problem than just economics, it's a cultural one too. You have a entire generation of boys/teens/men who either grew up with or are growing up with an endless amount of entertainment (games, movies, shows, music, porn, drugs), the consequences of outsourcing and automation, and the rise of feminism/PC-culture. All at one time, of course many are giving up or just opting out."
If you can barely hold onto the socioeconomic ladder already, are you going to be a masochist and try to meet your partner's (likely high) expectations as well? Probably not.
> Men have to get with the program.
Sigh... but it was a problem when men did. Damned if you do, damned if you do not. Am I alone in finding this ridiculous?
Sigh... but it was a problem when men did. Damned if you do, damned if you do not. Am I alone in finding this ridiculous?
Its the opinion of one author, I wouldn't generalize it across all of society.
Fair point. I hope this will not "catch on". It does not make it less ridiculous though. :P
Is the alternative to just oppress women so that they can't compete with men and raise the bar?
No? Why would you say that?
I was pointing to the absurdity of
> Sigh... but it was a problem when men did.
so take it as the opposite of the way you did, I'm not good at text sarcasm.
> Sigh... but it was a problem when men did.
so take it as the opposite of the way you did, I'm not good at text sarcasm.
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I've not once had a woman ask me how much I make or what I do for a living.
There was a monologue on exact same subject by Tucker Carlson, may be half a year ago or more, and it was somewhat US-centric.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7OS2o-mMg0
It has been thoroughly laughed at, though, by hosts of 'the View', for example
https://abcnews.go.com/theview/video/tucker-carlson-suggests...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7OS2o-mMg0
It has been thoroughly laughed at, though, by hosts of 'the View', for example
https://abcnews.go.com/theview/video/tucker-carlson-suggests...
Doesn't this just mean that the men who make decent money already found spouses?
And presumably those men aren't interested in women who spend a lot of time working, since they have that covered.
And presumably those men aren't interested in women who spend a lot of time working, since they have that covered.
There are also a good amount of men who make lots of money. However, they are not attractive. They might by chubby, scrawny, bad hygiene, and don't dress well.
I think it's safe to say ~80% of the women are attracted to ~20% of the men (physically fit, financially solvent, pleasant personality).
I don't see why you'd say that about just women, something like that is probably going on for both sexes.
Fortunately reality kicks in and people generally learn to swing their own weight, it's sort of part of becoming an adult.
Fortunately reality kicks in and people generally learn to swing their own weight, it's sort of part of becoming an adult.
Because that's what the article is talking about...
Relax. Breathe.
Yes, it's probably true vice versa too like many things.
Relax. Breathe.
Yes, it's probably true vice versa too like many things.
I couldn't find the full article but I did find some figures. Interesting that this is the first time I've read about hypergamy being mentioned in an academic context, I didn't realize it was an actual term used to describe people looking to marry "better" than themselves.
It expresses more as repulsion to someone perceived to be in a lower social/economic status than you and an attraction so someone who seems to be in a better status than you.
It's most likely not majorly conscious.
32 years old and all i ever heard or seen was established men get brought down Financially,Spiritually,Emotionally and intellectually by bad marriages or relationships. Some men i guess dont even try to raise the bar and just coast through life.
According to this I need to be:
Atleast 6'3
Know to cook
Six figure salary
These women struggle simply because they compete with much younger and more attractive women who are perfectly content with old, wealthy and unattractive men who aren't even looking for monogamous relationships.
Perhaps it's wiser for them to find a spouse at a younger age, before they make a lot of money.
Perhaps it's wiser for them to find a spouse at a younger age, before they make a lot of money.
While not PC, this is somewhat accurate (women competing with younger cohorts overall) based on data.
> In it, researchers studied the “desirability” of male and female users, based on how many messages nearly 200,000 users, all of whom were seeking opposite-sex partners, got over one month on a “popular, free online-dating service” — and if those sending the messages were desirable based on the same criteria.
> The researchers determined that while men’s sexual desirability peaks at age 50, women’s starts high at 18 and falls from there.
> “The age gradient for women definitely surprised us — both in terms of the fact that it steadily declined from the time women were 18 to the time they were 65, and also how steep it was,” said Elizabeth Bruch, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Michigan and an author of the study. [1] [2]
> A woman’s desirability peaks at 21, which, ironically enough is the age that men just begin their “prime,” i.e. become more desirable than average. Following that dotted line out, you can see that a woman of 31 is already “past her prime,” while a man doesn’t become so until 36. As we mentioned above, after age 26, a man has more potential matches than his female counterparts, which is a drastic reversal of the proportion in young adulthood, when women are much more sought-after. Because men’s dating preferences skew so young, and women’s are age-equitable, men peak later, and have a longer plateau of desirability, than women. [3]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/style/dating-apps-online-...
[2] https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/8/eaap981...
[3] https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-case-for-an-older-woman-99d8...
> In it, researchers studied the “desirability” of male and female users, based on how many messages nearly 200,000 users, all of whom were seeking opposite-sex partners, got over one month on a “popular, free online-dating service” — and if those sending the messages were desirable based on the same criteria.
> The researchers determined that while men’s sexual desirability peaks at age 50, women’s starts high at 18 and falls from there.
> “The age gradient for women definitely surprised us — both in terms of the fact that it steadily declined from the time women were 18 to the time they were 65, and also how steep it was,” said Elizabeth Bruch, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Michigan and an author of the study. [1] [2]
> A woman’s desirability peaks at 21, which, ironically enough is the age that men just begin their “prime,” i.e. become more desirable than average. Following that dotted line out, you can see that a woman of 31 is already “past her prime,” while a man doesn’t become so until 36. As we mentioned above, after age 26, a man has more potential matches than his female counterparts, which is a drastic reversal of the proportion in young adulthood, when women are much more sought-after. Because men’s dating preferences skew so young, and women’s are age-equitable, men peak later, and have a longer plateau of desirability, than women. [3]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/style/dating-apps-online-...
[2] https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/8/eaap981...
[3] https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-case-for-an-older-woman-99d8...
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Perhaps this correlates with the shift to getting married later in life as well?
In these women’s world dating is like Top Trumps but they bring along an unofficial card set for themselves where their attributes are far higher than reality and the cards the other player (the man) gets are all scored lower than the official set.
The woman in the photo probably thinks of herself as an 8.5, is probably a 7 with makeup and a 6 without. Every man has to be an 8.5 even if she says 7 and above is fine but she’d call him a 6 just so he knows how lucky he is to be dating her as she’s an 8.5
It’s the dating world equivalent of CDO selling lol.
Once upon a time a guy got away who was probably right for her but she thought she was deserving of better. Probably after buying some expensive shoes because as we all know $1500 shoes make a woman who is a 7 turn into an 8 in men’s eyes.
Articles like this are a good reminder to do something nice for our partners who aren’t money obsessed self important fantasists. The idea of going back to the dating market and having to bend over backwards for that type of woman is mind sharpener alright.
The woman in the photo probably thinks of herself as an 8.5, is probably a 7 with makeup and a 6 without. Every man has to be an 8.5 even if she says 7 and above is fine but she’d call him a 6 just so he knows how lucky he is to be dating her as she’s an 8.5
It’s the dating world equivalent of CDO selling lol.
Once upon a time a guy got away who was probably right for her but she thought she was deserving of better. Probably after buying some expensive shoes because as we all know $1500 shoes make a woman who is a 7 turn into an 8 in men’s eyes.
Articles like this are a good reminder to do something nice for our partners who aren’t money obsessed self important fantasists. The idea of going back to the dating market and having to bend over backwards for that type of woman is mind sharpener alright.
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It’s one thing to call someone lazy, it’s quite another to try to understand why they live the way they do. Personally, I don’t believe in laziness as a real concept, at least not over the long term.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori