Lead-Free Solder Is Better for You(bhencke.com)
bhencke.com
Lead-Free Solder Is Better for You
https://www.bhencke.com/blog/2019/3/15/a-hill-to-die-on
262 comments
>If for whatever reason lead is unavoidable in a project, make sure you're using good ventilation and wash thoroughly before going around your kids after you've handled lead.
I worked for a welding company and a significant portion of the engineering training involved attending welding school, which also included classes about the chemistry and physics of welding. They drilled into our heads the dangers from long term exposure to elements and chemicals in the fumes such as manganese and cadmium, and I even recall them mentioning lawsuits brought upon them that the company won, which I guess somehow disproves the danger. Anyway, if there's one thing I learned it's that I'd never allow my family members to become professional welders if I have a say. That stuff is nasty and a dirty "secret". Not to mention, a huge number of welders develop cataracts, but that could be due to incorrect shade usage and one one's fault to blame but the weldor....which I guess you could point back and say that's a result of improper training. Either way, I think welding is fun and a great skill to have, but I'd never do it for a living regardless of the pay.
edit - I should add this mostly applies to flux based welding such as stick and FCAW
I worked for a welding company and a significant portion of the engineering training involved attending welding school, which also included classes about the chemistry and physics of welding. They drilled into our heads the dangers from long term exposure to elements and chemicals in the fumes such as manganese and cadmium, and I even recall them mentioning lawsuits brought upon them that the company won, which I guess somehow disproves the danger. Anyway, if there's one thing I learned it's that I'd never allow my family members to become professional welders if I have a say. That stuff is nasty and a dirty "secret". Not to mention, a huge number of welders develop cataracts, but that could be due to incorrect shade usage and one one's fault to blame but the weldor....which I guess you could point back and say that's a result of improper training. Either way, I think welding is fun and a great skill to have, but I'd never do it for a living regardless of the pay.
edit - I should add this mostly applies to flux based welding such as stick and FCAW
My dad is a welder, and he's always been a stickler for his own health; at his previous company (which went under, unfortunately, he had worked there for 40 years) he had a strong extractor (on a hose so it could be moved close to his work) and a positive pressure / filtered hood - always on.
He's had 'welding eyes' (basically sunburn?) and he's had metal splinters in his eyes, but besides that he seems to be in good health still.
He did have to insist on better ventilation and a positive pressure welding mask at his current job though; he's been complaining about fatigue, which cleared up right when he started using that one. If I had known he was made to work like that I would probably have bought him one myself, but OTOH it's a matter of workplace safety / worker health so he could've kicked off about it himself.
He's had 'welding eyes' (basically sunburn?) and he's had metal splinters in his eyes, but besides that he seems to be in good health still.
He did have to insist on better ventilation and a positive pressure welding mask at his current job though; he's been complaining about fatigue, which cleared up right when he started using that one. If I had known he was made to work like that I would probably have bought him one myself, but OTOH it's a matter of workplace safety / worker health so he could've kicked off about it himself.
> 'welding eyes' (basically sunburn?)
Like a more concentrated sunburn. A welding torch will create much higher intensity UV than you're typically exposed to, and you're staring right at it. So instead of your skin, it burns the cornea directly. I've always heard it called "flash burn" after the flash caused by welding.
Like a more concentrated sunburn. A welding torch will create much higher intensity UV than you're typically exposed to, and you're staring right at it. So instead of your skin, it burns the cornea directly. I've always heard it called "flash burn" after the flash caused by welding.
Why don't they just make a welding mask that uses goggles with a video feed so you don't have to be exposed to any UV?
I don't claim to be a welding expert, but the immediate and obvious answer to "why don't they simply do X", where X is more expensive and more complex than the current solution, is that for those reasons X isn't going to catch on.
True. Also if I was 3M or Bosch and going to invest in a project like this I would want exclusive IP. There is already an incredible tech demo of this that may inhibit corporate investment: https://hackaday.com/2012/09/11/augmented-reality-welding-ma...
Using computer vision, it looks at the flow rate and arc of the weld and turns any mediocre welder into a good welder.
Having been in a power plant factory in China (which is to say a factory that makes power plants) - bad welds are still very much a problem and a system like this could go miles to improve the craftsmanship of medium skill work there. In the US or Germany a headset like this may cost a few grand (going by Dräger Xplore 8000 prices) but even if China finds a way to get them down to $200 (as with the Shanzhai AR headsets) it's still nearly a months salary for a worker - questionable if an operation would spring for it if they're cutting costs so many other places.
Using computer vision, it looks at the flow rate and arc of the weld and turns any mediocre welder into a good welder.
Having been in a power plant factory in China (which is to say a factory that makes power plants) - bad welds are still very much a problem and a system like this could go miles to improve the craftsmanship of medium skill work there. In the US or Germany a headset like this may cost a few grand (going by Dräger Xplore 8000 prices) but even if China finds a way to get them down to $200 (as with the Shanzhai AR headsets) it's still nearly a months salary for a worker - questionable if an operation would spring for it if they're cutting costs so many other places.
Welding is a highly-skilled precision process. Welders look at the color of the molten steel, the color and brightness of the arc, the flow of the steel, and even the smell. No video feed will have high enough resolution, latency and refresh rate, or color reproduction and brightness fidelity for the task.
Maybe it doesn’t need to? If a computer can simply look at the weld with sensors and detect attributes it can overlay them on the video feed for a welder to see. Then you can turn welding into a lower skill process and create more job opportunities.
> If a computer can simply
>Welding is a highly-skilled precision process.
And, yet, every automobile on the roads today has had some portion or it's frame welded by a robot. Not just spot welds, full on GMAW, and for hundreds/thousands of vehicles a day.
>No video feed will have high enough resolution, latency and refresh rate, or color reproduction and brightness fidelity for the task. Counter example: robotic surgery. Sure, there's fewer UV, IR and X-rays, but it's only a matter of time before a better CCD/CMOS sensor and lense comes along.
>No video feed will have high enough resolution, latency and refresh rate, or color reproduction and brightness fidelity for the task. Counter example: robotic surgery. Sure, there's fewer UV, IR and X-rays, but it's only a matter of time before a better CCD/CMOS sensor and lense comes along.
There is a difference between welding the same part automatically millions of times with exact, very tight known constraints that are always the same, and doing small batches and one off custom welds.
The two are not comparable.
The two are not comparable.
Because an inexpensive auto-darkening welding helmet will provide full protection against IR and UV.
Welding masks already block UV. People get arc flashes when they make mistakes in using the equipment -- striking an arc with their helmet up, or someone else in the area striking an arc when they're not wearing theirs. Video goggles would suffer from the same weakness :)
Actually the wouldn't...the point would be to always have them on from the minute you walk in the door.
You can do that with the auto-darkening welding helmets that are currently in common use. But people don't, because it's annoying.
Welding is hard. Dealing with a video feed is not something I want to be doing.
You're supposed to use a welding mask
You're supposed to use a welding mask
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”I even recall them mentioning lawsuits brought upon them that the company won, which I guess somehow disproves the danger.”
I would guess they won the lawsuits by showing that they had good safety rules and made all reasonable efforts to have their personnel obey them, not by convincing the court/jury that these jobs are risk-free.
I would guess they won the lawsuits by showing that they had good safety rules and made all reasonable efforts to have their personnel obey them, not by convincing the court/jury that these jobs are risk-free.
I was a welder for two years and after the first year I already started to notice a mental and physical decline in my health. Unfortunately, I was not a union welder and the company that I worked for did not educate or enforce proper use of safety gear. It was an eye opening experience for me and I’m glad to have experienced it, but knowing that my health was being put at risk is frustrating.
> Unfortunately, I was not a union welder and the company that I worked for did not educate or enforce proper use of safety gear.
That's just infuriating. How bad of a human being do you need to be to knowingly expose people to health hazards and still only offer basic safety training if an union gets involved?
That's just infuriating. How bad of a human being do you need to be to knowingly expose people to health hazards and still only offer basic safety training if an union gets involved?
> Unfortunately, I was not a union welder
This looks like a quote from a Victor Hugo book, about working in the XIX century.
This looks like a quote from a Victor Hugo book, about working in the XIX century.
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> mentioning lawsuits brought upon them that the company won
Perhaps something like "Please follow the safety rules. If you don't follow them and you hurt yourself, you won't get a huge payday, just bad injuries that your brought on yourself"?
Perhaps something like "Please follow the safety rules. If you don't follow them and you hurt yourself, you won't get a huge payday, just bad injuries that your brought on yourself"?
She might have been a "lead licker" who was an earlier generation soldering expert who used to literally lick the solder. This was forcibly stopped in approx 1980 here but I noticed people doing it when I was working on a line as late as 1995. They were older folk and yes they had the skin problems.
I myself have done a lot of work with leaded solder and have 20 rolls of it in the cupboard and it's most likely zero risk if you take the relevant precautions which are keep it away from eating surfaces, clean your hands afterwards properly, keep things out of your mouth and use a fume extractor.
I noticed analogue "legend" Jim Williams also used to lick the solder and had serious neurological problems when he got older and wondered if there were any links.
I myself have done a lot of work with leaded solder and have 20 rolls of it in the cupboard and it's most likely zero risk if you take the relevant precautions which are keep it away from eating surfaces, clean your hands afterwards properly, keep things out of your mouth and use a fume extractor.
I noticed analogue "legend" Jim Williams also used to lick the solder and had serious neurological problems when he got older and wondered if there were any links.
Why did they lick the solder?
I’m curious as well. A google search didn’t bring anything up about people licking solder.
Presumably, it acts as a flux or something?
Presumably, it acts as a flux or something?
For the taste.
People downvoting this as a joke, it could also bring up a point. Lead acetate was used as a sweetener occasionally in US food products up until the FDA was established. People have been somewhat aware of its poisoning effects since the Romans ("mad painters disease") but still used it in food and water systems. Pretty sure it is still used in some lipsticks as well.
Ah, Hacker News, where you get downvoted for making a joke.
(to be truthful this comment didn't really add anything, which makes it fair game to downvote, but I still got a bit of surprise seeing a decent joke grayed out)
(to be truthful this comment didn't really add anything, which makes it fair game to downvote, but I still got a bit of surprise seeing a decent joke grayed out)
This isn't reddit or imgur.
Why would you expect it to behave like it was?
It's literally in the guidelines: >Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
It's literally in the guidelines: >Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
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I am much into hobbyist work, like 3d printing/welding (mig/tig/stick welding/grinding), laser/CNC cutting.
I use a fume hood, I made it myself using Centrifugal fan and filters.
I thought about using scuba gear for welding, but I was worried about explosion from oxygen in case of leak?
Then I wear a respirator.
Is there anyway to respirate using a pipe placed elsewhere? Thinking about having a respirator attached to 20meter long pipe and put other end of the pipe outside to get fresh air instead of breathing the welding fumes.
I use a fume hood, I made it myself using Centrifugal fan and filters.
I thought about using scuba gear for welding, but I was worried about explosion from oxygen in case of leak?
Then I wear a respirator.
Is there anyway to respirate using a pipe placed elsewhere? Thinking about having a respirator attached to 20meter long pipe and put other end of the pipe outside to get fresh air instead of breathing the welding fumes.
I thought about using scuba gear for welding, but I was worried about explosion from oxygen in case of leak?
FWIW, it's way overkill, but you'd want SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus)[1] not SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus) unless you are, indeed, underwater. Of course the technologies are similar (and can be swapped to a limited degree in a pinch) but SCBA is used when you're not underwater. Those are what firefighters use while attacking fires, or performing trench rescue / confined space rescue / etc. and handling hazardous materials calls.
Note that SCBA do not used bottled oxygen... it's just plain air, but under pressure. I'm not a diver, so I don't know as much about SCUBA, but I know they aren't using pure oxygen either, but I think there may be times when they use a mix that is slightly different from plain old atmospheric air.
An additional note: SCBA are expensive, require maintenance and need to be refilled with air. All of these things would be a challenge to using one outside of an industrial setting. The "refill with air" part is especially tricky, because you might think "I can use a regular air compressor", but you actually can't, for at least two reasons. One, the pressures needed to fully refill an SCBA tank are higher than a standard shop air compressor. Two, the air also needs to be filtered to remove any contaminants - including, for example, oil used to lubricate the pump on the compressor. As you might guess, fire departments and other SCBA users buy special compressors that are very expensive.
And unlike SCUBA, I don't know that there are many, or any, commercial shops where you can walk in and get a bottle filled. If you had a buddy on a local fire department, they might be able to get a bottle filled for you, but no guarantees. Oh, and the bottles also need hydrostatic pressure testing every few years to make sure they are safe to use.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contained_breathing_appar...
FWIW, it's way overkill, but you'd want SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus)[1] not SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus) unless you are, indeed, underwater. Of course the technologies are similar (and can be swapped to a limited degree in a pinch) but SCBA is used when you're not underwater. Those are what firefighters use while attacking fires, or performing trench rescue / confined space rescue / etc. and handling hazardous materials calls.
Note that SCBA do not used bottled oxygen... it's just plain air, but under pressure. I'm not a diver, so I don't know as much about SCUBA, but I know they aren't using pure oxygen either, but I think there may be times when they use a mix that is slightly different from plain old atmospheric air.
An additional note: SCBA are expensive, require maintenance and need to be refilled with air. All of these things would be a challenge to using one outside of an industrial setting. The "refill with air" part is especially tricky, because you might think "I can use a regular air compressor", but you actually can't, for at least two reasons. One, the pressures needed to fully refill an SCBA tank are higher than a standard shop air compressor. Two, the air also needs to be filtered to remove any contaminants - including, for example, oil used to lubricate the pump on the compressor. As you might guess, fire departments and other SCBA users buy special compressors that are very expensive.
And unlike SCUBA, I don't know that there are many, or any, commercial shops where you can walk in and get a bottle filled. If you had a buddy on a local fire department, they might be able to get a bottle filled for you, but no guarantees. Oh, and the bottles also need hydrostatic pressure testing every few years to make sure they are safe to use.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contained_breathing_appar...
Most recreational diving is just compressed air, no added oxygen.
I wonder if, or why, SCBA gear would use different tank valves than SCUBA gear such that any dive shop couldn't fill one.
I wonder if, or why, SCBA gear would use different tank valves than SCUBA gear such that any dive shop couldn't fill one.
FWIW, nitrox use is pretty common among recreational divers as well, and mixed gas diving is all but a must for tech diving. 32 and 36 percent O2 are most common and up to 40 is ok without taking extra equipment precautions.
I wonder if, or why, SCBA gear would use different tank valves than SCUBA gear such that any dive shop couldn't fill one.
Good point. I don't actually know for a fact that they are different. It may actually be the case that a dive shop would have the capability to fill an SCBA bottle. Now, whether or not they'd be willing to do it is a different question.
Good point. I don't actually know for a fact that they are different. It may actually be the case that a dive shop would have the capability to fill an SCBA bottle. Now, whether or not they'd be willing to do it is a different question.
And some small rural fire departments don't even have the ability to refill their own SCBA tanks, and instead bring them to a larger department to get them refilled.
Yes, exactly. Those compressors are expensive. Back in my firefighting days, of the 21 or so departments in my county, I think maybe 3 had their own compressors. A few more had cascade systems, either at their station, or on a truck. So every couple of weeks or so, the other departments would haul all of their bottles to one of the departments that had a compressor, and refill them all (including the cascade bottles).
It really is a bit of a hassle, but it's worth it for an application like firefighting where SCBA are an absolute requirement.
It really is a bit of a hassle, but it's worth it for an application like firefighting where SCBA are an absolute requirement.
>Is there anyway to respirate using a pipe placed elsewhere? Thinking about having a respirator attached to 20meter long pipe and put other end of the pipe outside to get fresh air instead of breathing the welding fumes.
Yes, sort of. Supplied air respirators are masks or helmets fed with compressed air and are widely used in paint spray booths. You'll need a compressor capable of supplying a sufficient quantity of filtered, oil-free air.
A less cumbersome option is a powered air-purifying respirator (PAPR), which uses a belt pack containing a battery, fan and filter unit to supply purified air to a mask or helmet. PAPRs are the most widely used respiratory protection option in commercial welding, with several manufacturers offering PAPRs with an integrated welding helmet.
Both these options have the advantage of being positive-pressure, which means that no fit testing is required to ensure safe use - even if the mask or helmet leaks, the constant supply of clean air at above ambient pressure will prevent the ingress of contaminated air.
Yes, sort of. Supplied air respirators are masks or helmets fed with compressed air and are widely used in paint spray booths. You'll need a compressor capable of supplying a sufficient quantity of filtered, oil-free air.
A less cumbersome option is a powered air-purifying respirator (PAPR), which uses a belt pack containing a battery, fan and filter unit to supply purified air to a mask or helmet. PAPRs are the most widely used respiratory protection option in commercial welding, with several manufacturers offering PAPRs with an integrated welding helmet.
Both these options have the advantage of being positive-pressure, which means that no fit testing is required to ensure safe use - even if the mask or helmet leaks, the constant supply of clean air at above ambient pressure will prevent the ingress of contaminated air.
An example of PAPR application: I know of a professional woodturner who uses one, a 3M system IIRC. Beyond potential issues with long-term exposure to wood dust, turners tend to use material with unusual provenance compared to commercial timber. That in turn often means "spalted" – i.e. it's got fungal growth in it. It produces some lovely patterning and coloration in the wood, but which you definitely do not want to be breathing. The PAPR effectively combines breathing protection with a common turner's face shield; it's a compelling combination for that kind of work.
3M makes masks specifically for welding (3M 8515). Due to current circumstance, they can't be had for any price (they are also N95 rated), but normally that would be the solution to your problem.
Scuba(normally) does not use any higher concentration of oxygen than air. The compressors used just pump high pressure air into the tanks.
Using a scuba tank filled with air does not pose any additional explosion risk due to oxygen. The only additional explosion risk is due to the relatively high pressures involved (2000-5000psi) and the risks surrounding the use of any compressed gas.
There are blends of gasses available that do present an additional explosion hazard, but those are generally not available to someone without the training required to safely handle. For that matter a scuba shop following the rules won't even fill a tank of air for you without verifying your certification.
Using a scuba tank filled with air does not pose any additional explosion risk due to oxygen. The only additional explosion risk is due to the relatively high pressures involved (2000-5000psi) and the risks surrounding the use of any compressed gas.
There are blends of gasses available that do present an additional explosion hazard, but those are generally not available to someone without the training required to safely handle. For that matter a scuba shop following the rules won't even fill a tank of air for you without verifying your certification.
Get a 3M respirator with the appropriate filters for handling lead. When finished, wash up with Hygenall Lead-Off.
> Is there anyway to respirate using a pipe placed elsewhere
Yes, a CPAP machine.
A long tube, remote air with a filter, heated and humidified if you like.
And they're designed to adapt to your breathing so you won't know they're on.
though to be honest it's more like 2-3 meters, not 20.
Yes, a CPAP machine.
A long tube, remote air with a filter, heated and humidified if you like.
And they're designed to adapt to your breathing so you won't know they're on.
though to be honest it's more like 2-3 meters, not 20.
is this for real?
Do you find the dangers and precautions biologically or medically implausible, or do you find it implausible that the social danger of appearing to be weird is worth the risk of sharing?
The “breath through a 20m pipe” part isn’t going to work: all that dead space will (literally) kill you.
Depends on whether you breath in and breath into the pipe (which is not ok), or just breath in from the pipe, and breath out elsewhere (you will need some valve that will regulate the flow here).
No, I think the issue is that your lungs can’t generate enough negative pressure to respirate effectively through 20m of pipe.
They're not underwater. It doesn't take much pressure just to move air through a tube.
I assumed they were going to put a fan on it because otherwise it would be hard to even get a breath in, even if there was a check valve for exhaling.
I find it funny that trying to be safe, the alternative is to do something that will probably kill you. Respirator/Ventilation should work perfectly fine
Once I welded Galvanized pipe and I was sick for a week, I drank a lot of milk to counter that which I learned from my welding instructor
The sickest I've ever been was cutting/torching galvanized pipe and fencing in our poorly ventilated machine shed. I opened the doors to let most of the smoke out, but geez is that stuff aggressive.
We hammered milk afterwards to try to get rid of some of the symptoms, but that sticks with you. It's hard to describe, because it's an illness that isn't really like anything else. It sucks.
We hammered milk afterwards to try to get rid of some of the symptoms, but that sticks with you. It's hard to describe, because it's an illness that isn't really like anything else. It sucks.
That's probably metal fume fever?[1]
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever
I think she might've been exposed to a lot worse than lead.
Agree. I’ve taught kids to use needle nose pliers to handle solder.
After I got out of the military (in Electronics) I did a few years as a rework tech at a big telecom company soldering literally 8 hours a day. I got really good at it.
We had very little safety equipment, and used leaded exclusively. Vent hoods, but that's about it. Many people turned them off because the shake and rattle of the fans made it difficult to work on precise things like surface mount components. There was even a big CPU changing station which was effectively a molten vat of solder that you'd dip all 144 leads into to remove huge square I.C.s
This was in my early 20's, and I had that job for about 2 years. Despite perfect dental hygiene, most of my teeth had decayed and had to be crowned or replaced by the time I was 30. Most people I still talk to from that time in my life have chronic problems directly associated with lead poisoning (tooth decay is sort of loosely correlated, and I don't have any other typical symptoms into my 40s)
All of this is to say, the US Navy barely even mentioned lead safety in school, and a billion dollar (at the time) company didn't seem to care enough to train its employees, so the attitude that it's "not a big deal" was well and alive in the 90s, and I wouldn't be surprised if it still is today.
Also - Why is rosin-core solder so popular? I never used anything but raw spool solder and liquid flux. Rosin core makes a huge mess.
We had very little safety equipment, and used leaded exclusively. Vent hoods, but that's about it. Many people turned them off because the shake and rattle of the fans made it difficult to work on precise things like surface mount components. There was even a big CPU changing station which was effectively a molten vat of solder that you'd dip all 144 leads into to remove huge square I.C.s
This was in my early 20's, and I had that job for about 2 years. Despite perfect dental hygiene, most of my teeth had decayed and had to be crowned or replaced by the time I was 30. Most people I still talk to from that time in my life have chronic problems directly associated with lead poisoning (tooth decay is sort of loosely correlated, and I don't have any other typical symptoms into my 40s)
All of this is to say, the US Navy barely even mentioned lead safety in school, and a billion dollar (at the time) company didn't seem to care enough to train its employees, so the attitude that it's "not a big deal" was well and alive in the 90s, and I wouldn't be surprised if it still is today.
Also - Why is rosin-core solder so popular? I never used anything but raw spool solder and liquid flux. Rosin core makes a huge mess.
The older military and aviation boards we make still all use lead. Changing to lead-free requires an extensive re-certification process for each board, and no one at any level wants to do that. Which seems to create a belief that lead is manageable and okay. Interestingly, the board assembly shop still prefers lead because the boards are apparently easier to make.
Rosin-core is popular because it's a 1-step process. No need to put on the liquid, which seems to make at least the same mess.
[edit:grammar]
Rosin-core is popular because it's a 1-step process. No need to put on the liquid, which seems to make at least the same mess.
[edit:grammar]
There are liquids that are much less messy than rosin core.
Did you ever get your lead level tested by a doc? There are chelating treatments you can do to remove it, even adults have symptoms from lead poisoning
When I was in high school rosin core was used and the teacher talked about it like it was some great forgiving stuff that even if you didn’t use enough flux the core would help you but I agreed messy. I am however used to working on a poor mans budget and only do home electronics, last thing I did was solder and hack a Xbox 360 and rosin core is the only solder around here you can find so I make do. Also can’t buy flux without ordering online so I ended up collecting pine sap and soaking it in alcohol then filtering and evaporate the alcohol to make my own flux. It actually works just as well as any commercial flux I have used.
Am I the only weirdo who prefers lead-free solders because they don't flow as much?
They dry almost as soon as you take the heat off, which keeps parts from moving off their pads while it dries. And the iron doesn't seem to "pull" globs of the stuff around as much. I get really frustrated doing finicky work with leaded solders, but I'll happily do 0.5mm pitches by hand with lead-free.
Maybe it's just because I learned with the stuff?
They dry almost as soon as you take the heat off, which keeps parts from moving off their pads while it dries. And the iron doesn't seem to "pull" globs of the stuff around as much. I get really frustrated doing finicky work with leaded solders, but I'll happily do 0.5mm pitches by hand with lead-free.
Maybe it's just because I learned with the stuff?
Same here. Learned on Pb last century, but have not touched it much since the industry made the shift (2006). It is so much easier to make bad joints that look good with leaded solder. Bad joint with SAC305 or SN100C looks like a bad joint.
What has evolved a lot since the pre-RoHS lead-free panic (2002..2006) is synthetic flux. Hardly see rosin based fluxed in industry nowadays (where performance matters).
For DIY stuff I mostly use SAC305 solder with synthetic mild flux (REL0) like LF4300 (water soluble, in theory no clean, but you do not want to leave this working in very humid environment) or SMD291NL (true no clean). In production different ones depending on the end product and components. Activity and cleaning requirements are main characteristics to choose by.
What has evolved a lot since the pre-RoHS lead-free panic (2002..2006) is synthetic flux. Hardly see rosin based fluxed in industry nowadays (where performance matters).
For DIY stuff I mostly use SAC305 solder with synthetic mild flux (REL0) like LF4300 (water soluble, in theory no clean, but you do not want to leave this working in very humid environment) or SMD291NL (true no clean). In production different ones depending on the end product and components. Activity and cleaning requirements are main characteristics to choose by.
What's your experience desoldering lead-free?
In the custom keyboard hobby you often have people desoldering 160+ through hole joints. With good tools (Hakko FR301) and good solder (Kester 63/37) that's a 15 minute job, but the frustration level and time commitment increase significantly as your tool quality or solder quality declines.
How would doing a whole keyboard of lead-free compare? Especially if you don't have $300-500 invested in gear.
Another question is, how's quality of life on surface mount components in a home/DIY setting? Obviously industry has no trouble here, but sometimes you need to do 0602 or a TQFP by hand.
In the custom keyboard hobby you often have people desoldering 160+ through hole joints. With good tools (Hakko FR301) and good solder (Kester 63/37) that's a 15 minute job, but the frustration level and time commitment increase significantly as your tool quality or solder quality declines.
How would doing a whole keyboard of lead-free compare? Especially if you don't have $300-500 invested in gear.
Another question is, how's quality of life on surface mount components in a home/DIY setting? Obviously industry has no trouble here, but sometimes you need to do 0602 or a TQFP by hand.
Try 63/37 tin/lead instead of 60/40. 63/37 alloy is eutectic, meaning its melting and solidifying temperature is the same (183C). 60/40 has a semisolid state around its melting point (~=190C).
totally agree.
I use kester 66/44 eutetic tin-lead solder on anything I care about.
It's said that light-dark auto helmets make someone a welder nearly overnight; I think that same way about eutetic solder and soldering, it makes the job so much easier that the quality of the work skyrockets.
I use kester 66/44 eutetic tin-lead solder on anything I care about.
It's said that light-dark auto helmets make someone a welder nearly overnight; I think that same way about eutetic solder and soldering, it makes the job so much easier that the quality of the work skyrockets.
Any idea why, if the parts don't add to 100, they don't reduce the fraction in the solder name from 66/44 to 3/2? Un-reduced portions are handy if they're percentages, but if they're not going to be percentages, why not reduce the fraction?
Might be a typo? Usually you have 60/40 and 63/37.
because you're comparing it to 63/37. it's much easier to grok the comparison when you use the same "units".
in racing, they say to drive 10/10ths. not 1's. for the same reason.
in racing, they say to drive 10/10ths. not 1's. for the same reason.
If they don't add up to 100, and neither of the numbers matches the default, they're not the same units.
This guy hams! With your solder knowledge and call sign, I'm surprised you're just a tech!
Maybe this isolation we’re going through will give me time to upgrade. -73-
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No, I am the same as you — lead free is different, but not worse. Just like you I started using pretty much both from the start. I think the perception of lead free solder as beeing worse or harder to solder is mostly due to braking with one's habits. A bit like a subtle version of driving your car in the UK as a continental European: all the signs seem to be at the wrong side.
Lead free behaves differently for sure (although how exactly also depends on the mixture, iron power, temperature), but as you I actually find it better and not worse.
Lead free behaves differently for sure (although how exactly also depends on the mixture, iron power, temperature), but as you I actually find it better and not worse.
I used both leaded[1] and lead free. Only thing with lead free is needing a little more heat and making sure everything is clean. Anything tinned or with a flash of silver/gold solders just fine.
And I think I've seen tin whiskers once in 20 years. I'm dubious it's a problem for 99% of commercial applications. Unlike mil spec the temperature extremes are less, IC's are encapsulated[2]. And I suspect lead free alloys aren't as problematic as pure tin.
Either way industrial production, processing and eventual disposal of lead is bad news.
[1] Nicest solder I've used is lead/tin/antimony. Stuff was the shit.
[2] Early papers I read were all about pure tin solder causing problems inside hermetically sealed packages.
And I think I've seen tin whiskers once in 20 years. I'm dubious it's a problem for 99% of commercial applications. Unlike mil spec the temperature extremes are less, IC's are encapsulated[2]. And I suspect lead free alloys aren't as problematic as pure tin.
Either way industrial production, processing and eventual disposal of lead is bad news.
[1] Nicest solder I've used is lead/tin/antimony. Stuff was the shit.
[2] Early papers I read were all about pure tin solder causing problems inside hermetically sealed packages.
> Maybe it's just because I learned with the stuff?
Quite possibly. I learned to solder last century, using leaded solder, which was available in copious amounts in my dad's workshop for a long time, throughout my high school and university years. It took me a few weeks to get used to lead-free solder and it was days before I could solder anything correctly. I pretty much re-learned it. I sat for two days and did nothing but solder stuff at random until it started coming out right again.
Quite possibly. I learned to solder last century, using leaded solder, which was available in copious amounts in my dad's workshop for a long time, throughout my high school and university years. It took me a few weeks to get used to lead-free solder and it was days before I could solder anything correctly. I pretty much re-learned it. I sat for two days and did nothing but solder stuff at random until it started coming out right again.
Same here. I started soldering with lead solder and found it utterly frustrating, it constantly felt like the solder ignored gravity.
Then a few years later I picked it up again with lead free solder and suddenly it was super easy and the solder flowed exactly how I expected. I'm not very proficient at it but since then I never messed up a pin.
Then a few years later I picked it up again with lead free solder and suddenly it was super easy and the solder flowed exactly how I expected. I'm not very proficient at it but since then I never messed up a pin.
It's not just bad for the solderer.
It will contaminate areas around your solder area (do your kids ever do a project on your workbench?)
And at end of life, lead is a problem in land fill sites and in e-waste recycling.
Indians (including children) desoldering components from imported e-waste have high blood lead levels: https://journals.lww.com/epidem/fulltext/2011/01001/High_Blo...
Indians (including children) desoldering components from imported e-waste have high blood lead levels: https://journals.lww.com/epidem/fulltext/2011/01001/High_Blo...
I think of woodworking as a very similar discussion. People would wear N95s when working with a shit-ton of visible particulates, but otherwise are constantly leaving their lungs unprotected. The resultant progressive loss of long function is pronounced. But try to convince woodworkers that N95s should be a de facto daily driver. “My daddy worked wood all his life and was healthy as a horse until the day he dropped dead”
Agreed on the dangers of sawdust, but in my experience most hobbyist woodworkers these days are very aware of dust and particulate management.
Particle counters are reasonably cheap, so many woodworkers use them to measure and optimize the air cleaning systems in their woodworking areas.
It helps that the most popular Woodworking YouTubers frequently produce videos about improvements to their dust collection setups. It also helps that cheap Chinese air filtration units have become widely available.
Dust collection and air filtration are probably the most common tool talk in my local woodworking groups.
In contrast, it's rare to see electronics hobbyists taking air filtration seriously. Kudos to Ben Heck for writing about it.
Particle counters are reasonably cheap, so many woodworkers use them to measure and optimize the air cleaning systems in their woodworking areas.
It helps that the most popular Woodworking YouTubers frequently produce videos about improvements to their dust collection setups. It also helps that cheap Chinese air filtration units have become widely available.
Dust collection and air filtration are probably the most common tool talk in my local woodworking groups.
In contrast, it's rare to see electronics hobbyists taking air filtration seriously. Kudos to Ben Heck for writing about it.
I think too many people (myself included) have thought incorrect things like, "Ah, wood is natural and can't hurt you". Not that wood is any more natural than lead, or arsenic. But it doesn't seem bad like inhaling smoke from things... and yet, it clearly is not good for you in the long term!
Whenever I hear that something is "natural" and thus not a health danger, I ask the person if they would bite into a camel turd. Those are natural too.
Don't even get me started on "chemical free".
Don't even get me started on "chemical free".
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I think it's just that people are literally and metaphorically blind to dangers that are invisible.
Don't forget treated wood does have arsenic...and fumes from poly, stains and varnishes can be pretty bad.
I don't believe that treated (or, "pressure treated") wood is produced with arsenic anymore.
I believe it (CCA: chromated copper arsenate) was phased out in 2003.
I still treat the cutting of, and the sawdust from, treated wood more carefully - just out of habit - but I think it is fairly benign these days unless you get specially sourced wood for marine applications ... which is not what you're going to find down at the local lumber yard ...
I believe it (CCA: chromated copper arsenate) was phased out in 2003.
I still treat the cutting of, and the sawdust from, treated wood more carefully - just out of habit - but I think it is fairly benign these days unless you get specially sourced wood for marine applications ... which is not what you're going to find down at the local lumber yard ...
Now if I could just get any kind of particulate-reducing mask for a semi-reasonable price...
"People would wear N95s when working with a shit-ton of visible particulates, but otherwise are constantly leaving their lungs unprotected."
Correct. And I say that as both a solderer and woodworker! In fact, woodworking often scares me more than soldering (as with wood there are more variables involved). Some particulates from wood are down outright dangerous—in fact, many different types of woods can either cause cancer or serious lung irritation. The reasons are that (a) the wood itself can have microscopic hook-like structures that embed themselves into one's lungs and they're sufficiently resilient not to be dissolved by body enzymes etc. before they do damage, and (b) some woods contain toxic chemicals, terpenes etc. which plants usually manufacture to deter or destroy pests.
Terpenes are a large class of organic chemicals with a wide range of properties, some are relatively innocuous to humans and others can be harmful, in fact, some terpenes are considered a cancer risk. The flux rosin used in solder consists mostly of terpenes, so if you're one of those who worries about using Pb/Sn solder then you've more than just the lead to worry about. There's an image of natural resins here on this Wiki terpene page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpene
Here's a few references about wood and wood dust toxicity: The Wood Database: https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-a... and Wood Dust Exposure and Lung Cancer Risk: https://www.verywellhealth.com/wood-dust-and-lung-cancer-who.... There are many others.
To protect yourself always use an N95 (aka P2) mask when sanding, sawing or doing fine routing—any work that produces fine wood dust/particulates. What about aerosol terpenes produced in the cuttings you ask? I'd suggest that if you are wearing a mask then the volatiles that actually get through the mask will unlikely cause you any problems (the practical consensus is that it's the fine particulates that lodge in your lungs that actually cause most of the danger). Of course, the same goes for cement dust, other powdered minerals including even talc and of course asbestos.
Over the years, I've done a great deal of soldering and it's mainly been with Pb/Sn solder. Normally, for casual work 60/40 or eutectic are my choice as lead-free requires more care/setup and closer temperature tolerances, and there is a higher risk of damaging components with excessive heat. For PWA [circuit boards] production runs etc. it's a no-brainer, you should always use lead-free solders. These days it's dead easy to use lead-free on PWA production runs as the processes can now be held to such close tolerances.
When soldering, braising or welding always remember to apply the cleanliness is next to godliness rule. Always use masks, keep the area well ventilated, and always wash your hands especially so after handling Pb (lead) and finally vacuum up all the metal dust and other crap with a vacuum cleaner that has a HEP filter.
Correct. And I say that as both a solderer and woodworker! In fact, woodworking often scares me more than soldering (as with wood there are more variables involved). Some particulates from wood are down outright dangerous—in fact, many different types of woods can either cause cancer or serious lung irritation. The reasons are that (a) the wood itself can have microscopic hook-like structures that embed themselves into one's lungs and they're sufficiently resilient not to be dissolved by body enzymes etc. before they do damage, and (b) some woods contain toxic chemicals, terpenes etc. which plants usually manufacture to deter or destroy pests.
Terpenes are a large class of organic chemicals with a wide range of properties, some are relatively innocuous to humans and others can be harmful, in fact, some terpenes are considered a cancer risk. The flux rosin used in solder consists mostly of terpenes, so if you're one of those who worries about using Pb/Sn solder then you've more than just the lead to worry about. There's an image of natural resins here on this Wiki terpene page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpene
Here's a few references about wood and wood dust toxicity: The Wood Database: https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-a... and Wood Dust Exposure and Lung Cancer Risk: https://www.verywellhealth.com/wood-dust-and-lung-cancer-who.... There are many others.
To protect yourself always use an N95 (aka P2) mask when sanding, sawing or doing fine routing—any work that produces fine wood dust/particulates. What about aerosol terpenes produced in the cuttings you ask? I'd suggest that if you are wearing a mask then the volatiles that actually get through the mask will unlikely cause you any problems (the practical consensus is that it's the fine particulates that lodge in your lungs that actually cause most of the danger). Of course, the same goes for cement dust, other powdered minerals including even talc and of course asbestos.
Over the years, I've done a great deal of soldering and it's mainly been with Pb/Sn solder. Normally, for casual work 60/40 or eutectic are my choice as lead-free requires more care/setup and closer temperature tolerances, and there is a higher risk of damaging components with excessive heat. For PWA [circuit boards] production runs etc. it's a no-brainer, you should always use lead-free solders. These days it's dead easy to use lead-free on PWA production runs as the processes can now be held to such close tolerances.
When soldering, braising or welding always remember to apply the cleanliness is next to godliness rule. Always use masks, keep the area well ventilated, and always wash your hands especially so after handling Pb (lead) and finally vacuum up all the metal dust and other crap with a vacuum cleaner that has a HEP filter.
Tin whiskers are a fact [1] and a reason why military and space applications only use leaded solder. I want my electronics to be reliable and last a long time, which is why I'll never use lead-free solder. Leaded solder is safe as long as you take basic precautions (e.g. use a fume extractor, wear gloves, don't lick the solder [2]).
[1] https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/
[2] https://www.edn.com/analog-guru-jim-williams-dies-after-stro...
[1] https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/
[2] https://www.edn.com/analog-guru-jim-williams-dies-after-stro...
For casual hobbyists I don’t agree it’s safe (I used to think so though)
A professional is usually working in a dedicated workspace completely separate of a working area, and that distinction alone is important.
Everyone is aware they should wash their hands after working with lead solder, but if you’re working where you live, it’s all too easy to contaminate areas that you often come in contact with.
I remember trying to clean out my solder sucker one day and realizing the sucker was literally atomizing solder. Just cleaning that thing probably contaminated a good radius around my desk.
And I mean you can say “just wipe down the desk”, but that’s where the hobbyist aspect comes in, a lot of people will do this on a desk with a keyboard and a mouse, maybe a carpet, a ton of places for little bits of solder to hide.
They’re doing things that a professional probably wouldn’t do too, accidentally getting solder balls all over the place and stuff.
I’ve decided it’s not worth the risk. 99% of my soldering is through hole components you could solder with your eyes closed.
Most hobbyists are not doing the volume of soldering that any extra work with non leaded solder is going to be terrible anyways. And they’re also often not going to take precautions like wearing gloves and buying a fume extractor for the same reason
A professional is usually working in a dedicated workspace completely separate of a working area, and that distinction alone is important.
Everyone is aware they should wash their hands after working with lead solder, but if you’re working where you live, it’s all too easy to contaminate areas that you often come in contact with.
I remember trying to clean out my solder sucker one day and realizing the sucker was literally atomizing solder. Just cleaning that thing probably contaminated a good radius around my desk.
And I mean you can say “just wipe down the desk”, but that’s where the hobbyist aspect comes in, a lot of people will do this on a desk with a keyboard and a mouse, maybe a carpet, a ton of places for little bits of solder to hide.
They’re doing things that a professional probably wouldn’t do too, accidentally getting solder balls all over the place and stuff.
I’ve decided it’s not worth the risk. 99% of my soldering is through hole components you could solder with your eyes closed.
Most hobbyists are not doing the volume of soldering that any extra work with non leaded solder is going to be terrible anyways. And they’re also often not going to take precautions like wearing gloves and buying a fume extractor for the same reason
Environment is huge. Listen to this guy!
If you're doing this in your kitchen, stay far, far away from lead.
If you're doing this in your commercial building's electronics lab, where food and drink is prohibited, and there are only electronics people around... leaded solder is going to win.
If you're doing this in your factory, where your processes are tightly dialed in and you're moving mountains of product... now you can use either one just as easily, so there's no reason to risk lead unless the customer or application demands it.
If you're doing this in your kitchen, stay far, far away from lead.
If you're doing this in your commercial building's electronics lab, where food and drink is prohibited, and there are only electronics people around... leaded solder is going to win.
If you're doing this in your factory, where your processes are tightly dialed in and you're moving mountains of product... now you can use either one just as easily, so there's no reason to risk lead unless the customer or application demands it.
Naive question, but isn't it forbidden? How could an application ask for it?
Applications in the military and aerospace sectors are exempt from EU RoHS regulations. Some medical devices may also be exempt, but this is rare. (None of the medical devices I've worked on have been exempt.)
(The US generally follows the same pattern, by industry alignment rather than law. It's actually nice for the US: we get all the benefits of industry-wide RoHS adoption, but with the ability to painlessly "opt out" for any reason at all.)
(The US generally follows the same pattern, by industry alignment rather than law. It's actually nice for the US: we get all the benefits of industry-wide RoHS adoption, but with the ability to painlessly "opt out" for any reason at all.)
Some of things are exempt from those rules. RoHS currently exempts some medical and industrial devices.
I realized that I never took precautions when soldering, I mean soldering on my main computer desk, not cleaning it afterwards, not cleaning my hands, and doing it in a closed room without opening the window.
I should be more careful in the future, fortunately I rarely solder and for short periods of time, like 5 minuts just to fix a wire that got disconnected or change a capacitor, so I don't think it will do any harm, still better to take precautions in the future.
I should be more careful in the future, fortunately I rarely solder and for short periods of time, like 5 minuts just to fix a wire that got disconnected or change a capacitor, so I don't think it will do any harm, still better to take precautions in the future.
I need to research this more, but my impression is it should be fairly easy and affordable to get tested and, if necessary, get chelation therapy to remove heavy metals from your system.
Anyone with knowledge on the topic that can weigh in?
Anyone with knowledge on the topic that can weigh in?
I wonder why new "we will all die to tin whiskers" articles stopped appearing 5 years ago. It used to be a really big thing, but now even all the new military projects are RoHS without any issues.
Did not get your link to Jim Williams article. Care to elaborate?
Did not get your link to Jim Williams article. Care to elaborate?
A lot of it has to do with the platings on component leads/terminations. Within the last 10 years it's become clear just how well component manufacturers have dialed things in. They had to go pretty far to do that, though. I know the amounts used are miniscule, but it still amazes me that cheap commodity ICs have leadframes plated with palladium and gold, and dirt cheap resistors have ruthenium in them. (All very, very expensive noble metals!)
Jim Williams used to lick solder as he was soldering as did other old-timers. Another observed behavior was licking the thumb and wiping the joint immediately after soldering.
Later he developed Parkinson's disease (probably related [1]) and died of a stroke.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807691
Later he developed Parkinson's disease (probably related [1]) and died of a stroke.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807691
In my (limited) exposure of products failing in the field due to whiskers, the mitigations included coating the entire board in some kind of film, and changing layout to make the board less vulnerable in the first place. Probably designers just got good enough at that to the point where it doesn't matter
Conformal coating is not related to whiskers, it's to prevent condensation damage in certain applications. Used where it is called for regardless of solder type.
Some of the linked articles in this comment section claim that conformal coatings mitigate whisker shorting because the whiskers can't pierce the coating.
Tin whiskers aren't the result of lead free solder. They are a result of the tin coating on component leads. If you take a close look at that nasa page you'll see that every photo is of just a component lead/termination.
Tin plating has largely been replaced by tin alloys at this point which has more or less solved the whisker issue at a large scale.
More info here: https://www.indium.com/blog/pb-free-solders-are-not-the-caus...
Tin plating has largely been replaced by tin alloys at this point which has more or less solved the whisker issue at a large scale.
More info here: https://www.indium.com/blog/pb-free-solders-are-not-the-caus...
Unfortunate homograph there at "lead".
On the flip side, lead-free solder has gotten my last 3 GPUs on the cheap as 'non-working" when all they needed was 15 minutes in the oven to help reflow the solder.
Wait, what? How do you do this?
Remove all the heat sinks and anything else you possible can, preheat an oven to 385 (might want to use a thermometer and some thermal mass if your stove kicks on real hard so you don't overheat), make some tinfoil balls/pyramids and use that to elevate your card above the board, make sure most of the mounted components face up, cook for 10-15 minutes, VERY CAREFULLY remove it, or just turn the oven off and let it cool down again so you don't risk knocking anything while it is semi-solid, reapply heatsinks with new paste and install and test.
Sometimes they need a bit more time or a few degrees or to be done more than once, but it works most of the time. Do not get your oven too hot or you risk causing components to fall off, it isn't actually reaching full melting point, just close enough for solder cracks and tin whiskers to self-heal.
I probably don't need to say this but don't do this with a card that works because it is a small risk. The key is keeping a stable temperature and not rushing it. Ive never had it fail on me, but that could just be luck of the draw.
Sometimes they need a bit more time or a few degrees or to be done more than once, but it works most of the time. Do not get your oven too hot or you risk causing components to fall off, it isn't actually reaching full melting point, just close enough for solder cracks and tin whiskers to self-heal.
I probably don't need to say this but don't do this with a card that works because it is a small risk. The key is keeping a stable temperature and not rushing it. Ive never had it fail on me, but that could just be luck of the draw.
Put it in the oven at low heat to melt solder.
I figured the fume extractor is for flux fumes. Do the fumes also contain lead?
No, lead vaporizes at much higher temperatures than ones used for soldering. But the flux/rosin fumes are major lung irritants and can exasperate or even cause asthma.
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What if you clean it with IPA and use a coating? Could that help prevent whiskers?
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Wow I just realized that I did not practice good safety years ago when I used to solder stuff. Now I have p100 filters for working with solvents and de-lead soap and all that.
But that picture of the solder scourer made my brain tickle in that really uncomfortable way when you realize you fd up.
Now I should go look up whether or not smoke from melting/burning diodes is really bad for you. Probably it is :(
But that picture of the solder scourer made my brain tickle in that really uncomfortable way when you realize you fd up.
Now I should go look up whether or not smoke from melting/burning diodes is really bad for you. Probably it is :(
Just because you can get solders both leaded and lead-free having the same flux, does not mean that is usually the case. Your typical lead-free alloy will have a nastier flux. Is this a big effect? No.
The real reason to stick with leaded is simply that it's much, much easier to use. If you get a joint done in half the time, that's half the exposure to nasty stuff. For hobbyist stuff, it doesn't really matter. A moderately skilled operator can do the job about as quickly with either type of solder. For the really hard stuff, like fine-pitch QFNs and 0201s or worse... give me 63/37 any day. (But only if I can't have a skilled soldering technician instead!)
The real reason to stick with leaded is simply that it's much, much easier to use. If you get a joint done in half the time, that's half the exposure to nasty stuff. For hobbyist stuff, it doesn't really matter. A moderately skilled operator can do the job about as quickly with either type of solder. For the really hard stuff, like fine-pitch QFNs and 0201s or worse... give me 63/37 any day. (But only if I can't have a skilled soldering technician instead!)
Reminds me of the post about LED traffic lights.
"But they accumulate snow!"
Of course they do. And that's an easier problem to solve than having bulky, heavy, power-hungry lights that die quickly.
Having a little trouble soldering is an easier problem to deal with than having lead poisoning.
Personally, I'm pretty bad at soldering, so maybe it's time to finally swear off hardware projects.
"But they accumulate snow!"
Of course they do. And that's an easier problem to solve than having bulky, heavy, power-hungry lights that die quickly.
Having a little trouble soldering is an easier problem to deal with than having lead poisoning.
Personally, I'm pretty bad at soldering, so maybe it's time to finally swear off hardware projects.
> Personally, I'm pretty bad at soldering, so maybe it's time to finally swear off hardware projects.
I wear gloves when soldering, and I'm building a fume extractor (currently using an out-of-room Shop Vac). Terrible at it, but getting better. Don't let your current skill level hold you back! It takes some work and practice, but so does everything else in life.
I wear gloves when soldering, and I'm building a fume extractor (currently using an out-of-room Shop Vac). Terrible at it, but getting better. Don't let your current skill level hold you back! It takes some work and practice, but so does everything else in life.
How have you figured you are bad at soldering? Have you had training and _even_ then, remained bad at soldering? Or are you, like most of us, just winging it?
I had some soldering lessons from people. But their technique, one way or the other, was flawed in some way.
This is what I suggest: https://www.youtube.com/user/paceworldwide
I had some soldering lessons from people. But their technique, one way or the other, was flawed in some way.
This is what I suggest: https://www.youtube.com/user/paceworldwide
Technology Connections has a great video on LED traffic lights and how the concern about snow was overblown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8
How does the type of bulb used affect snow accumulation?
LED light does not produce enough heat to melt snow like old light bulbs.
My bathroom mirror is LED-backlit. Old halogen-backlit mirrors do not fog because they get warm. When ordering my LED mirror I had an option to get it with a heating element built in. They just glued a heating film on the back of the mirror, and my mirror is not fogged after showering.
Incandescent bulbs produce a lot of heat, melting the snow. LEDs run fairly cool.
Powerful LEDs also run rather hot, more specifically their power circuits. My pocket size flashlight would easily run up to 100 degrees I think but it has protection built-in and steps down brightness when overheated. And it only has 1 LED and 1 lithium cell for power. So it probably would have been easy to design external radiators for traffic lights internals, with a heatpipe or similar solution. But they would be more expensive that way.
Ah, didn't think of that, thanks.
We could solve that problem right now: Don't use LED traffic lights in areas that get snowfall.
The benefits still vastly outweigh the costs of incandescents in electricity and maintenance. Special "scooped" visors direct wind across the face of the light to blow snow off, and for a couple extra bucks per light assembly you can get one with a heated face that still uses a tiny fraction of the power of incandescents.
Or add optional heating elements to the traffic light package that turn on automatically based on temperature sensors.
I'd spend my effort elsewhere.
Specifically, rather than fighting over which type of solder is less dangerous to inhale, I'd focus on promoting the use of solder fume extractors.
Even basic models purchasable on platforms like aliexpress, which are as you'd expect inexpensive, do make a world of a difference on exposure to fumes.
Yet most people solder without these.
Specifically, rather than fighting over which type of solder is less dangerous to inhale, I'd focus on promoting the use of solder fume extractors.
Even basic models purchasable on platforms like aliexpress, which are as you'd expect inexpensive, do make a world of a difference on exposure to fumes.
Yet most people solder without these.
I’m surprised by the number of commenters who believe lead-free solder is difficult to work with. When it comes to soldering, it being easy comes down to:
1. Using good soldering techniques and practicing a bit.
2. Using good quality flux.
3. Using an iron with consistent temperature control and a tip that isn’t corroded.
4. Lastly, the actual solder alloy.
1. Using good soldering techniques and practicing a bit.
2. Using good quality flux.
3. Using an iron with consistent temperature control and a tip that isn’t corroded.
4. Lastly, the actual solder alloy.
I think the iron part gets overlooked a lot, cheap/old irons see a huge temperature dip when soldering. Leaded solder handles that a little better and this is what people perceive as "the difference". Once you use propper technique and a decent iron lead-free isn't worse, just different
I struggled with soldering for years, thinking I was just bad at soldering. Then I got to use a basic Hakko iron and it was infinitely easier. I immediately threw away the Radio Shack iron I had and bought my own Hakko.
The cheapo irons are such a waste of time and money. Unfortunately, I think they tend to set-point people for what to expect for iron prices. Going from $10-15 for a junky iron to $65-80 for a good one seems like a big leap. But this is a tool that should last you forever, if you take care of it, and the productivity improvement is well worth the cost. Consider, you’ll spend hundreds on components for a hobby project of any moderate size. Just buy a good iron already.
It reminds me of how much I hate the phrase, “it is a poor Workman who blames his tools”. Yeah, yeah, skilled people can get good results out of junky tools. But you won’t actually ever see it happen, because skilled people care about their work enough to only use good tools. The only time a skilled person uses junky tools is when there is literally no other option (and no, having to wait for a delivery is not one of those cases).
The cheapo irons are such a waste of time and money. Unfortunately, I think they tend to set-point people for what to expect for iron prices. Going from $10-15 for a junky iron to $65-80 for a good one seems like a big leap. But this is a tool that should last you forever, if you take care of it, and the productivity improvement is well worth the cost. Consider, you’ll spend hundreds on components for a hobby project of any moderate size. Just buy a good iron already.
It reminds me of how much I hate the phrase, “it is a poor Workman who blames his tools”. Yeah, yeah, skilled people can get good results out of junky tools. But you won’t actually ever see it happen, because skilled people care about their work enough to only use good tools. The only time a skilled person uses junky tools is when there is literally no other option (and no, having to wait for a delivery is not one of those cases).
There are bad tools, and then there are tools that just aren't fit for purpose. If you are trying to melt metal with a machine and that machine cannot translate energy into the required amount of heat fast enough, it might just be the wrong machine to begin with.
Soldering with a bad iron is the equivalent of trying to chisel wood with a flat screwdriver: sure you can do something to the wood – it just might not be the thing you want.
Soldering with a bad iron is the equivalent of trying to chisel wood with a flat screwdriver: sure you can do something to the wood – it just might not be the thing you want.
Yep. And honestly, leaded solder is far more forgiving and less sensitive to technique. If someone is just barely able to solder with leaded, they're definitely NOT going to have a good experience with lead-free.
I do think hobbyists should switch to lead-free, but it will involve getting rid of marginal equipment, refining technique through practice, and following instructions. The best way to make this switch, IMHO, is simply to make leaded solder unavailable to the consumer market.
I do think hobbyists should switch to lead-free, but it will involve getting rid of marginal equipment, refining technique through practice, and following instructions. The best way to make this switch, IMHO, is simply to make leaded solder unavailable to the consumer market.
So what's a good soldering iron for a hobbist? Is the TS-100 that was much hyped on the internet some time ago a good choice? Or the TS-80 one? Or should one go for more traditional irons?
A Hakko FX-888 or FX-888D is a good hobbyist iron if you're going to be soldering a decent amount. I have one and it's very much worth the money.
I've heard good things about the TS-100 as well but I've never tried one so I can't confirm anything about it.
I've heard good things about the TS-100 as well but I've never tried one so I can't confirm anything about it.
I bought a Hakko FX-888D a few years ago and immediately regretted all the time I had wasted using crappy irons for a decade and a half. Suddenly, soldering worked as easily as it did on all those YouTube videos.
I solder so infrequently that it felt like spending $100 on an iron was overkill, and I couldn't have been more wrong.
I solder so infrequently that it felt like spending $100 on an iron was overkill, and I couldn't have been more wrong.
Same! My first iron was a shitty radioshack one. Shelling out the $100 for a Hakko is absolutely worth it for the time and frustration savings. I actually really enjoy soldering with it because it works so smoothly.
My only regret is not getting the analog version because Hakko kinda sucks at making digital interfaces.
My only regret is not getting the analog version because Hakko kinda sucks at making digital interfaces.
It's hyped because it's small and good enough. Great to bring it to a friend to fix their headphones. I'm also planning to buy something like this as a secondary.
If you want some good primary iron, buy a Weller or a Hakko. They are widely available and have a good value/price ratio. Weller WS81 or Hakko FX-888D are both great starter irons. Most likely serve you for life if you don't need it to do any specialized thing.
If you want some good primary iron, buy a Weller or a Hakko. They are widely available and have a good value/price ratio. Weller WS81 or Hakko FX-888D are both great starter irons. Most likely serve you for life if you don't need it to do any specialized thing.
I've heard good things about both irons! About to order one myself for field work and looks perfect for most use-cases.
(I personally have a Metcal PS900, very happy with it)
(I personally have a Metcal PS900, very happy with it)
I've been soldering on prototypes for work since what, 1984.
Every time I see a cheap ass or busted soldering iron I have the urge to smash it with a hammer and fling into the dumpster where it belongs.
Every time I see a cheap ass or busted soldering iron I have the urge to smash it with a hammer and fling into the dumpster where it belongs.
Leaded solder is much more forgiving, which is important when most hobbyists don't have all of 1, 2 and 3.
Good analysis. That said, this is one of those things where, yeah, if I soldered more than a few times a year, I'd probably worry about it. As it is, cumulatively speaking I probably breathe in more hazardous crap when I'm driving than when I'm soldering with a fan blowing the smoke away from my face.
Leaded solder just way easier to work with, unfortunately. I agree. I’ll stick with it because some simple precautions make just about every “danger” involved moot.
WASH YOUR HANDS. It's the most important thing to do! Both lead and coronavirus hate it!
This and don't eat, drink or smoke in the lab. I remember my material sciences professor relating the story that blood lead levels for a certain group of pieceworkers dropped considerably when they banned smoking at the workplace.
MSDS data sheets are only intended to list the hazards associated with a particular material for an employee of a company using that material. You can't really use them to determine the relative risks of two materials. Often times a MSDS is simply wrong and no one cares enough to get it corrected. A second MSDS issued by the same manufacturer for the same material can be different than the first.
Minor point of order: They're now SDS, not MSDS. Knowing such things is a well-known hazard of being married to an environmental engineer.
Yeah, but if I say SDS everyone thinks I'm talking about a hammerdrill. Say MSDS and everyone knows what you mean, even if the name technically changed.
since when? i was about to be a pedant and add the M...
Wikipedia says mid-2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet#United_State...
In practice, a lot of smaller companies are still distributing MSDS rather than SDS.
In practice, a lot of smaller companies are still distributing MSDS rather than SDS.
Question: if you have some solder around and don't know if it's leaded... and you don't have enough practice to be able to tell the difference from the way it flows... is there an easy way to tell?
By mass is probably the easiest way - if you also have some that is known lead-free and it's 'significantly' lighter (per equal volume), the other's probably leaded. If it's close, you could probably work it out by pouring over Wikipedia and making assumptions like 'if it's leaded, it will be at minimum 30% lead'... but at that point the 'easy way to tell' is probably to replace it with known solder (assuming the goal was not to use leaded solder inadvertently).
If you hate soldering with it, it's lead free
Guessing in practice you would melt some and see if it's shiny (leaded) or chalky (lead free.) Surely not foolproof for all alloys though.
Otherwise you could see how hot your iron needs to be to make it melt.
Otherwise you could see how hot your iron needs to be to make it melt.
This is from the perspective of a hobbyist who does _not_ do industrial quantities of soldering, but rather the occasional build or the occasional repair of a piece of old test equipment.
I use eutectic 63/37 Kester solder in several sizes for everything. With my temp controlled Weller station, it's the bee's knees for making quality joints quickly.
As far as worrying about safety, it's really down to common sense. In long time scales, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. If you apply common sense, you can have fun while you're around and not have problems from lead solder.
Here's my "hot takes":
1) There's a reason why food and drink isn't allowed in professional labs of various kinds. Follow their example. Don't use your kitchen table as a workbench. Don't eat and drink in your work area. Don't lick solder. etc. etc.
If your living arrangement is so small that you can't separate them adequately, seek out a local hacker space or a friend who does have space.
2) Wash your hands thoroughly after soldering (and if you are doing projects with your kids, instill in them the instinct to wash their hands, too!) If I'm finding myself doing a lot of soldering/desoldering for a repair, I take frequent breaks and wash then, too. It also helps reduce mistakes.
3) At a minimum, use a desk fan to blow fumes away from your face. Better yet, invest in a fume extractor unit. I'd say the latter it's a necessity if you do a lot of soldering.
The bottom line is, choose what you prefer and what you are willing to risk using, and take appropriate precautions. Chances are, even if you eliminate lead solder from your hobby work, there's likely something equally as hazardous in your local environment that you are more systemically exposed to. Radon gas, naturally occurring drinking water contaminants (or sometimes unnaturally...), etc.
I use eutectic 63/37 Kester solder in several sizes for everything. With my temp controlled Weller station, it's the bee's knees for making quality joints quickly.
As far as worrying about safety, it's really down to common sense. In long time scales, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. If you apply common sense, you can have fun while you're around and not have problems from lead solder.
Here's my "hot takes":
1) There's a reason why food and drink isn't allowed in professional labs of various kinds. Follow their example. Don't use your kitchen table as a workbench. Don't eat and drink in your work area. Don't lick solder. etc. etc.
If your living arrangement is so small that you can't separate them adequately, seek out a local hacker space or a friend who does have space.
2) Wash your hands thoroughly after soldering (and if you are doing projects with your kids, instill in them the instinct to wash their hands, too!) If I'm finding myself doing a lot of soldering/desoldering for a repair, I take frequent breaks and wash then, too. It also helps reduce mistakes.
3) At a minimum, use a desk fan to blow fumes away from your face. Better yet, invest in a fume extractor unit. I'd say the latter it's a necessity if you do a lot of soldering.
The bottom line is, choose what you prefer and what you are willing to risk using, and take appropriate precautions. Chances are, even if you eliminate lead solder from your hobby work, there's likely something equally as hazardous in your local environment that you are more systemically exposed to. Radon gas, naturally occurring drinking water contaminants (or sometimes unnaturally...), etc.
Externalities matter. Eventually that stuff is going to be handled by other people, in a year or ten or a hundred. The risk is not just to you, and is not just based on your own safety procedures.
Please stop advocating for people to use leaded solder at hackerspaces, which are generally frequented by children.
Please stop advocating for people to use leaded solder at hackerspaces, which are generally frequented by children.
Scale matters too. As I clearly stated, I am not making electronics at industrial scales, nor am I generating large quantities of e-waste.
As for hacker spaces, why on earth would anyone in their right mind assume that it would be ok to not wash hands, eat, drink, etc in that environment _and_ let their kids work there without the same precautions, leaded solder or no?
As for hacker spaces, why on earth would anyone in their right mind assume that it would be ok to not wash hands, eat, drink, etc in that environment _and_ let their kids work there without the same precautions, leaded solder or no?
Regardless of how you feel on the matter, I have never been to a hackerspace where people were not eating and drinking inside.
My dad used to solder a lot as a kid and I always loved the smell of it. My dads advice to me was "you probably shouldnt do that. It will slowly poison you." I dont know that it really stopped me though.. He also (still) has a mason jar full of mercury that he let my brother and I play with...
as aside, took me a while ( a while ago when the internet was a much smaller place) to work out the american pronunciation of solder actually meant "solder" which is said "soul der" around these parts.
It's better for you if you aren't breathing the rosin smoke which comes out in greater quantities at the higher temperature you have to use. Since there are an awful lot of people breathing rosin smoke maybe there's still a place for lead solder. (Pragmatically, vents are not very common, and few people will buy a vent when switching to lead free.) Rosin smoke is a serious danger and the number one cause of occupational asthma.
> people breathing rosin smoke maybe there's still a place for lead solder
This statement is what the author is trying to shoot down. "Thoughts that sounds safe" when in reality they aren't and hurt people along the way.
There are times when pragmatism isn't the way to go. Pragmatically, leaded gasoline was everywhere, it's too difficult to change. Pragmatically, emissions are so expensive to deal with, we shouldn't.
If you are exposed to rosin smoke, you need good ventilation, not switch to leaded solder which is what you're implying here because when you switch to solder you've got a whole host of other problems to deal with that are way worse.
For those do this regularly to gain asthma, OSHA (or equal) needs to step in.
Articles like these and activists push us towards better legislation when pragmatism does not.
This statement is what the author is trying to shoot down. "Thoughts that sounds safe" when in reality they aren't and hurt people along the way.
There are times when pragmatism isn't the way to go. Pragmatically, leaded gasoline was everywhere, it's too difficult to change. Pragmatically, emissions are so expensive to deal with, we shouldn't.
If you are exposed to rosin smoke, you need good ventilation, not switch to leaded solder which is what you're implying here because when you switch to solder you've got a whole host of other problems to deal with that are way worse.
For those do this regularly to gain asthma, OSHA (or equal) needs to step in.
Articles like these and activists push us towards better legislation when pragmatism does not.
>If you are exposed to rosin smoke, you need good ventilation, not switch to leaded solder which is what you're implying here
That's not what I'm trying to imply. I'm saying that you should buy a vent before you switch to lead-free because even though you need a vent or a mask for any kind of solder, your need increases when you switch. If you switch and don't buy a vent your total health might actually go down.
That's not what I'm trying to imply. I'm saying that you should buy a vent before you switch to lead-free because even though you need a vent or a mask for any kind of solder, your need increases when you switch. If you switch and don't buy a vent your total health might actually go down.
I hadn't heard about rosin fumes being dangerous until this thread. I'll definitely have to learn more and work on some better ventilation in the future. I do love that smell though!
Just buy a filtering fan already. They are cheap.
Lead free solder is better for your health, that's clear. It requires new tools (solder iron) as lead free solder has a higher melting point than lead free.
In Europe lead free solder is the standard since many (10+) years, you can't get leaded solder as an option to buy.
In Europe lead free solder is the standard since many (10+) years, you can't get leaded solder as an option to buy.
That's nonsense, it is still very easy to get leaded solder in Europe.
I last bought some 2kg of Fluitin 1532 leaded solder in Switzerland back in 2017. They still offer the leaded version in the online shop I got it from. Definitely still easily available.
That stuff will last me for a few years. However, once it's used up, I guess I'll try switching to lead-free as well.
That stuff will last me for a few years. However, once it's used up, I guess I'll try switching to lead-free as well.
Not in Sweden that’s for sure. It took me a long search to find some a while back when I needed it
Wow, I was going to post some trivial links to common national shops that were full of the stuff last time I looked, but ... nothing.
It seems to be due to a EU regulation that became active March 1 2018 here in Sweden, it's no longer legal to sell metal alloys containing more than 0.3% (!) lead to individuals [1].
I had no idea, thanks!
[1]: https://www.kemi.se/lagar-och-regler/reach-forordningen/begr...
It seems to be due to a EU regulation that became active March 1 2018 here in Sweden, it's no longer legal to sell metal alloys containing more than 0.3% (!) lead to individuals [1].
I had no idea, thanks!
[1]: https://www.kemi.se/lagar-och-regler/reach-forordningen/begr...
Actually, yes, it looks like I didn't have the full truth either: as recently as 2 or 3 years ago you could still buy leaded solder in most places (in Europe), but the store in Germany where I used to order it, doesn't sell any anymore.
Not in Spain. I remember the change at around 2003/2005, where the seller just gave me the lead free version.
For what I remember, the lead free had a higher melting temperature. At least back in the days.
Took one week to get used to.
For what I remember, the lead free had a higher melting temperature. At least back in the days.
Took one week to get used to.
Have to agree with my sibling comment.
Just a few months ago I bought my first soldering iron. Not only was the little bit solder included with the iron of the Sn60Pb40 variety but also almost all of the solder products on the shelves at my local "Bauhaus" (a home improvement market chain).
For anyone that cares: brand of iron and solder was "Rothenberger Industrial". Relatively cheap but looked like a good and sturdy tool which from my yet limited hobbyist experience it seems to be.
Just a few months ago I bought my first soldering iron. Not only was the little bit solder included with the iron of the Sn60Pb40 variety but also almost all of the solder products on the shelves at my local "Bauhaus" (a home improvement market chain).
For anyone that cares: brand of iron and solder was "Rothenberger Industrial". Relatively cheap but looked like a good and sturdy tool which from my yet limited hobbyist experience it seems to be.
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Why isn't there alternative to soldering? Laser for fusing component leads to PCB?
For mass production, most work is done with automated methods like wave soldering which spot methods like soldering irons (or lasers) can't hope to match for throughput or repeatability. The kind of hand work that's being discussed here is almost non-representative of most industry practice.
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Since lead is a stabilizing agent for tin whiskers has that been dealt with yet by solder manufacturers or have we just decided that early failure is acceptable?
If Lead is terrible, thanks to getting it out of petrol, why are we still selling lead solders which will easily poison you? I have done some soldering with zero education on how to properly do it or the safety implications. I've most likely poisoned myself.
Can we not ban lead for non-certified use? Like I don't see home depot selling liquid nitrogen wily nily. Same with oxygen tanks. Isn't playing with Lead in the same ballpark?
Can we not ban lead for non-certified use? Like I don't see home depot selling liquid nitrogen wily nily. Same with oxygen tanks. Isn't playing with Lead in the same ballpark?
The simple reason for the difference is that poisons are only dangerous if they end up somewhere they shouldn't be. When we put lead in gasoline, it was going everywhere in the environment, including the air. Lead which is in a large enough chunk that it doesn't spontaneously become airborne is much less likely to end up inside of a human.
Brass also contains lead, which you almost certainly have inside of your house in a few places. Even 'lead-free' brass for plumbing contains some lead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass#Lead_content The key is that it has to be in low enough concentrations that it doesn't end up leaving the part and ending up in dangerous amounts inside of humans.
Unless you have occupational exposure, you have most likely not even come close to poisoning yourself even if you didn't follow any safety precautions. Lead is pretty bad, but it's not something that causes issues with any amount of exposure... you body can tolerate some lead exposure. A hobbyist that solders a dozen PCBs per year has a way different potential exposure than someone who solders a dozen per hour for 2000 hours per year.
> Like I don't see home depot selling liquid nitrogen wily nily. Same with oxygen tanks.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-1-4-oz-Oxygen-Gas-Cy...
Brass also contains lead, which you almost certainly have inside of your house in a few places. Even 'lead-free' brass for plumbing contains some lead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass#Lead_content The key is that it has to be in low enough concentrations that it doesn't end up leaving the part and ending up in dangerous amounts inside of humans.
Unless you have occupational exposure, you have most likely not even come close to poisoning yourself even if you didn't follow any safety precautions. Lead is pretty bad, but it's not something that causes issues with any amount of exposure... you body can tolerate some lead exposure. A hobbyist that solders a dozen PCBs per year has a way different potential exposure than someone who solders a dozen per hour for 2000 hours per year.
> Like I don't see home depot selling liquid nitrogen wily nily. Same with oxygen tanks.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-1-4-oz-Oxygen-Gas-Cy...
Lead is dangerous in one way: when it gets into your body. Lead on your skin is not harmful. There are two main ways lead gets into your body: you can eat it, or you can breathe it in.
Not eating lead is straightforward: wash your hands before you eat, and, uh, just _don't eat lead_. Unfortunately this is harder in practice than it sounds: lead paint was a major health problem because teaching young children about lead isn't easy. There are also several lead compounds that actually taste pretty good, so you want to eat more; go ask the ancient Romans about that. Then don't eat any of those compounds!
Leaded gasoline is an entirely different problem, because "just don't breathe" is, ah, not practical. It's exposure that cannot be avoided, and that is serious indeed.
Not eating lead is straightforward: wash your hands before you eat, and, uh, just _don't eat lead_. Unfortunately this is harder in practice than it sounds: lead paint was a major health problem because teaching young children about lead isn't easy. There are also several lead compounds that actually taste pretty good, so you want to eat more; go ask the ancient Romans about that. Then don't eat any of those compounds!
Leaded gasoline is an entirely different problem, because "just don't breathe" is, ah, not practical. It's exposure that cannot be avoided, and that is serious indeed.
Lead solder isn't really more dangerous than the soldering iron you're applying it with. And lead-free solder can poison you too.
The problems caused by lead are from it filling the environment, not touching tiny amounts. We'd probably get much more benefit by finally banning it in aviation gas.
The problems caused by lead are from it filling the environment, not touching tiny amounts. We'd probably get much more benefit by finally banning it in aviation gas.
The article makes it seem like lead-free solder is indisputably healthier, but in reality the conclusion seems to be based off of just the MSDS of the products. I presume these are generated simply based on the chemical composition of the solder, but do not take into account the actual exposure that really occurs when one is soldering.
Curious, what is your preferred method of dispensing the right amount of solderpaste for SMT work? I find the manual syringe technique quite difficult but perhaps I should consider a smaller tip size. I've seen people using compressed air based approaches, but these seem expensive and take a lot of desk space.
First choice: stencil. Stainless steel stencils are cheap these days and fantastic. No good for rework, though.
Second choice: manual syringe. As you've noticed, it's difficult. Some pastes are thixotropic, so shaking the tube before dispensing can help a little. Or maybe that's just my imagination.
Third choice: stick a stainless steel pick or even just a toothpick into a little pile of paste and dispense it by hand. This is surprisingly useful for those really fine-pitch pads... but it's tedious.
Second choice: manual syringe. As you've noticed, it's difficult. Some pastes are thixotropic, so shaking the tube before dispensing can help a little. Or maybe that's just my imagination.
Third choice: stick a stainless steel pick or even just a toothpick into a little pile of paste and dispense it by hand. This is surprisingly useful for those really fine-pitch pads... but it's tedious.
> "the same fumes"
But, they're not the same. I had to dig around a bit to verify, but melting lead creates lead fumes: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/exposure.html
You do not have to bring lead to boiling create lead fumes (aka vapor).
Here's the OSHA documentation on lead: https://www.osha.gov/chemicaldata/chemResult.html?recNo=500
They have specifications for testing lead (and other metal) content in the air from soldering operations: https://www.osha.gov/dts/sltc/methods/inorganic/id206/id206....
But, they're not the same. I had to dig around a bit to verify, but melting lead creates lead fumes: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/exposure.html
You do not have to bring lead to boiling create lead fumes (aka vapor).
Here's the OSHA documentation on lead: https://www.osha.gov/chemicaldata/chemResult.html?recNo=500
They have specifications for testing lead (and other metal) content in the air from soldering operations: https://www.osha.gov/dts/sltc/methods/inorganic/id206/id206....
There are people who have been using lead solder for years who swear by it and refuse to use lead-free because it produces crappy joints. I tend to be on their side. What you need is proper filtering for air and you'll be fine.
Hey, let them have it if they want it so badly. But they should not convince younger ones that it’s not a danger though!!!
If you get the chance, try out some modern lead free alloys at some point. K100LD has ended up being my favorite solder, absolutely fantastic to use!
I once read that getting rid of lead in gas made some seemingly unrelated illnesses go away over the decades.
Let's see how our lifes get better when we remove combustion engines entirely from our cities.
Let's see how our lifes get better when we remove combustion engines entirely from our cities.
Not just illness. Elimination of lead is a prime suspect for the decrease of violent crime over the last 40 or so years.
I think Lead Solder is Ban in Europe since 2003 or around.
I remember the change, where I was not able to buy the old one. I remember that it had a slightly higher melt temperature.
Can you buy it in America?
I remember the change, where I was not able to buy the old one. I remember that it had a slightly higher melt temperature.
Can you buy it in America?
It's not banned, it's restricted. There are still applications where it's allowed in manufacture, even in the EU.
Prototyping/R&D is excepted as well.
Prototyping/R&D is excepted as well.
You can still buy leaded solder in the EU. Lead is restricted in most consumer applications, but it's still perfectly legal in a lot of industrial products.
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MG-Chemicals/4884-227G?q...
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MG-Chemicals/4884-227G?q...
Yes, the melt temperature is slightly higher, and i have difficulties to melt it with my old solderer.
Ok. When I said ban, I meant that back in the time, I went to the shop and they didn't sell it.
While the solders on through hole stuff come out messier, I find the goopyness of lead free solder to be superior for point to point connections.
I agree that lead is unsafe. However, I'd like to point out that this new solder just doesn't flow.
Maybe your iron needs some inspection — older and less powerful irons don't manage to prevent temperature dips as effectively as new ones where the temperature sensing is integrated in the tip.
I solder lead free mostly for over a decade now and getting a good modern soldering station was hands down the best thing ever for lead free
I solder lead free mostly for over a decade now and getting a good modern soldering station was hands down the best thing ever for lead free
I have a Weller WT2M. I believe that should be sufficient? Perhaps I'll review my technique.
Have you tried Sn100C? It's supposed to be better than SAC305, but we mostly stick to 63/37 around here, so I haven't had a chance to compare.
I will look into that thank you :)
I still have a tiny bit of the spool of lead solder I bought in the 1980's.
SN100C is finally a thing but it's really hard to give up 63/37
i dont know...
ive been eating a roll a week and let me tell you, i can definitely taste a difference in the lead-free solder.
Why does it sound like so many people here literally eat lead solder.
Practice proper lab safety for chrissakes.
Wash your hands after dealing with chemicals and/or dangerous materials, such as flux or lead. Don't let your small children near it. Don't eat or drink in the lab.
The spread of the hobby through cheap dev kits and stuff has made people ignorant to the fact that, yes, these are potentially dangerous chemicals like any other, with MSDS documentation and proper handling precautions that must be taken.
You don't get lead poisoning unless you're improperly handling the stuff. Give me a break.
Arguing that "lead free solder is better for you" is absolutely terrible. That's like saying "drinking straight bleach is better for you than drinking bleach with arsenic mixed in."
None of these should even be coming into your body in any way, shape, or form and if they are, you're doing something horribly wrong.
Practice proper lab safety for chrissakes.
Wash your hands after dealing with chemicals and/or dangerous materials, such as flux or lead. Don't let your small children near it. Don't eat or drink in the lab.
The spread of the hobby through cheap dev kits and stuff has made people ignorant to the fact that, yes, these are potentially dangerous chemicals like any other, with MSDS documentation and proper handling precautions that must be taken.
You don't get lead poisoning unless you're improperly handling the stuff. Give me a break.
Arguing that "lead free solder is better for you" is absolutely terrible. That's like saying "drinking straight bleach is better for you than drinking bleach with arsenic mixed in."
None of these should even be coming into your body in any way, shape, or form and if they are, you're doing something horribly wrong.
I remember seeing somewhere a video of Steve Wozniak showing off his old soldering technique, which involved holding a length of solder in his mouth so both his hands could be free... In the days before lead free solder...
Found the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJif4i9NRdI
See him solder @ 3:08.
See him solder @ 3:08.
Pair of helping hands: $10
Lead poisoning: Priceless
Lead poisoning: Priceless
Melting lead also creates lead vapor, so it doesn't require that you touch or eat it.
Not in any signifnicant way, no. The vapor pressure of lead is incredibly incredibly low. The vapor amounts that would be given off during normal soldering would be miniscule, and would remain incredibly close to the work. You'd basically have to shove the molten lead directly into your nose and snort it to have an effect, if any.
Lead is incredibly dense. I hope it's pretty easy to understand that you have to put a whole lot of energy into it in order to actually get the particles to fly up into your nose or mouth for you to aspirate them. Much more energy than is imparted by the process of soldering.
Lead is incredibly dense. I hope it's pretty easy to understand that you have to put a whole lot of energy into it in order to actually get the particles to fly up into your nose or mouth for you to aspirate them. Much more energy than is imparted by the process of soldering.
Okay, so this link loads up to a blank page. You have to edit the CSS and remove the "opacity: 0" to see the content. Presumably there's some Javascript in there that does this after the page has loaded.
So, talking about a hill to die on - can we please stop doing this? There was absolutely nothing else in that web page that required Javascript to be able to view the content. It was completely unnecessary to pull a trick like that.
So, talking about a hill to die on - can we please stop doing this? There was absolutely nothing else in that web page that required Javascript to be able to view the content. It was completely unnecessary to pull a trick like that.
Confirmed. You'll have to temporarily allow javascript for that. What for? Just some text. Come on, people.
I'm using uMatrix, and I had to allow scripts from static1.squarespace.com to get the text to load, and assets.squarespace.com to load the pictures.
I'd prefer it if sites were written to be loadable and readable with only first-party scripts, but in my experience with uMatrix most services/tools offering aided site construction (blogger, wordpress, squarespace, wix, etc.) have required external scripts like this.
Another option if you're using Firefox is reader mode, which loads the content without images or other decoration. I forgot to try this first myself.
I'd prefer it if sites were written to be loadable and readable with only first-party scripts, but in my experience with uMatrix most services/tools offering aided site construction (blogger, wordpress, squarespace, wix, etc.) have required external scripts like this.
Another option if you're using Firefox is reader mode, which loads the content without images or other decoration. I forgot to try this first myself.
KarlKemp(1)
Maybe the unnecessary thing was you disabling JavaScript?
Don't really care. Leaded solder is much easier to work with.
Wash your hands and lead is fine for hobbyists and far more people enjoyable to work with. The problem that ROHS solves is landfills full of manufactured goods not full of lead.
That's what I always figured. I do so little soldering that I doubt it wouldn't make any difference for my health. And lead based solder saves a lot of time and frustration.
Depends on the iron. If you have a powerful one with temperature sensing in the tip (instead of the heating element), the lead free is not worse, just different.
If you have a beaten down cheap soldering iron, leaded is still much easier to work with.
If you have a beaten down cheap soldering iron, leaded is still much easier to work with.
>Depends on the iron.
tin-lead eutetic is light years ahead of any ROHS stuff i've used with regards to flow performance, regardless of my iron -- a cheap 12v automotive unit or my hundreds of dollars hakko.
I've always used ROHS stuff no problem for bigger less sensitive things. Whenever anything gets near SMD level the hakko and the tin-lead eutetic kester solder come out. It makes the work so much easier for me; not because of the tips on the hakko either, but because eutetic tin-lead flows where you want and locks when you want. I've yet to find a good ROHS solder that works with me for smd stuff without a LOT of brute force and pcb over-heating.
8 times out of 10 if I don't have lead-tin solder when attempting SMD work, i'll just say 'screw it' and use solder paste and a reflow gun or oven. ROHS solder paste acts fine, but reflow soldering sucks when you can normally just zip components on easily with an iron.
tin-lead eutetic is light years ahead of any ROHS stuff i've used with regards to flow performance, regardless of my iron -- a cheap 12v automotive unit or my hundreds of dollars hakko.
I've always used ROHS stuff no problem for bigger less sensitive things. Whenever anything gets near SMD level the hakko and the tin-lead eutetic kester solder come out. It makes the work so much easier for me; not because of the tips on the hakko either, but because eutetic tin-lead flows where you want and locks when you want. I've yet to find a good ROHS solder that works with me for smd stuff without a LOT of brute force and pcb over-heating.
8 times out of 10 if I don't have lead-tin solder when attempting SMD work, i'll just say 'screw it' and use solder paste and a reflow gun or oven. ROHS solder paste acts fine, but reflow soldering sucks when you can normally just zip components on easily with an iron.
I am quite happy with Felder Iso-Core "Clear" for SMD work, but admittedly I also had a lot of bad lead free solder. I think the differences in lead-free solders are bigger than in leaded stuff. Trying to stay open and experimenting with new things once in a while makes sense there.
Also: lead free in my experience needs a little more heat and is more sensitive to temperature dips from the tip when soldering. So if you have a cheap and weak iron or a good one with the temperature sensing in the heating element (and not in the tip), your lead-free experience might be worse than it should have to be.
Lead-free also needs better cleaning – but that is something one should usually do painstakingly anyways.
Also: lead free in my experience needs a little more heat and is more sensitive to temperature dips from the tip when soldering. So if you have a cheap and weak iron or a good one with the temperature sensing in the heating element (and not in the tip), your lead-free experience might be worse than it should have to be.
Lead-free also needs better cleaning – but that is something one should usually do painstakingly anyways.
[deleted]
Whenever someone has difficulty soldering, and I find out they are using unleaded solder, I always give the same advice:
USE LEADED SOLDER
USE LEADED SOLDER
USE LEADED SOLDER
Lead-free solder is a disaster. Stay away from it.
USE LEADED SOLDER
USE LEADED SOLDER
USE LEADED SOLDER
Lead-free solder is a disaster. Stay away from it.
This is seriously old school advice from someone who clearly hasn't done research or used modern solders. There are quite a few very good lead free alloys that are basically as good as any leaded alloy.
I use Kester K100LD and it is absolutely fantastic. Unless you really know your stuff you can't tell a difference.
Please stop giving outdated advice like this.
I use Kester K100LD and it is absolutely fantastic. Unless you really know your stuff you can't tell a difference.
Please stop giving outdated advice like this.
> There are quite a few very good lead free alloys that are basically as good as any leaded alloy.
You know what is 100% as good as leaded solder? Actual leaded solder!
You remember that giant class-action against the Heathkit company for all the people they poisoned with leaded solder? Don't remember it? That's because it never happened!
If your soldering consists of soldering pins onto Arduino nano boards, or whipping up a prototype or two with your JLCPCB boards, you'll be fine with leaded solder.
You know what is 100% as good as leaded solder? Actual leaded solder!
You remember that giant class-action against the Heathkit company for all the people they poisoned with leaded solder? Don't remember it? That's because it never happened!
If your soldering consists of soldering pins onto Arduino nano boards, or whipping up a prototype or two with your JLCPCB boards, you'll be fine with leaded solder.
If all you're soldering is some pins on an Arduino nano or some simple jlc prototypes then you'll also be totally fine with lead free solder. The only time I've seen a reasonable excuse to use leaded solder at home is when working with very temperature sensitive devices such as connectors with plastic in them. Even then leaded isn't /that/ much better.
I'm a little surprised someone with as solid a reputation as Ben Hencke wrote all that and didn't bother to dedicate a single solitary sentence to supporting the claim that leaded solder represents an actual threat to its user. Here I was, getting ready to point out flaws in his sources but not only doesn't he have sources he doesn't even have claims. The whole article is him disproving the myth that lead-free solder is more dangerous than leaded, which, granted, is a good point but he forgot to back up his thesis at all.
Leaded solder is not even slightly dangerous to its user unless you make a daily habit of soldering for hours and then eating without washing your hands. Leaded solder does represent an environmental threat. Fortunately most manufacturers have switched to lead-free solder and the amount of lead put into the environment by hobbyist solder is best described as "fucking infinitesimal".
Leaded solder is not even slightly dangerous to its user unless you make a daily habit of soldering for hours and then eating without washing your hands. Leaded solder does represent an environmental threat. Fortunately most manufacturers have switched to lead-free solder and the amount of lead put into the environment by hobbyist solder is best described as "fucking infinitesimal".
Maybe you're so used to the safety warnings that you always skip them when you encounter them? Here, extracted just for you:
> Compare that to the leaded version with the same rosin formulation. This also creates fumes that are not great to breathe (the same fumes), plus a bunch of really bad stuff because of the lead:
> [Long list of bad stuff]
> I think most of this speaks for itself, but I’d like to point out a subtle upgrade from P261 to P260 for the leaded stuff. It goes from “avoid” to “don’t” and I think this this is worth calling out specifically. Remember leaded paint? The stuff we banned in ‘78? The primary cause of lead-poisoning isn’t eating paint chips, it is breathing lead laced paint dust. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lead-poisonin...
> “But solder dust? ‘Cmon, really? How can that even be?” I can hear someone typing already… Have you seen one of these?
> [Picture of solder tip cleaner]
> Compare that to the leaded version with the same rosin formulation. This also creates fumes that are not great to breathe (the same fumes), plus a bunch of really bad stuff because of the lead:
> [Long list of bad stuff]
> I think most of this speaks for itself, but I’d like to point out a subtle upgrade from P261 to P260 for the leaded stuff. It goes from “avoid” to “don’t” and I think this this is worth calling out specifically. Remember leaded paint? The stuff we banned in ‘78? The primary cause of lead-poisoning isn’t eating paint chips, it is breathing lead laced paint dust. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lead-poisonin...
> “But solder dust? ‘Cmon, really? How can that even be?” I can hear someone typing already… Have you seen one of these?
> [Picture of solder tip cleaner]
Putting aside the need of a citation or at least an explanation as to how tip cleaners create lead dust, that's a reason to use sponges with leaded solder, not a reason not to use lead solder at all.
With pathogens, my standards go the other way: I prefer proof they're not spread before using them. It is very reasonable to assume that grating metals against each other will create dust. That's what happens in a tip cleaner.
And as for the sponges, I can see very small balls of solder on them. And I would call balls smaller than I can see "dust". Should I just assume that there is a lower bound to their size? That they're not there because I can't see them?
And as for the sponges, I can see very small balls of solder on them. And I would call balls smaller than I can see "dust". Should I just assume that there is a lower bound to their size? That they're not there because I can't see them?
There were some studies a few years ago that claimed lead free was actually worse for the environment due to a much higher joint failure, resulting in more disposal of electronics.
There were also a lot of studies a few years ago that people like to invent unnamed studies to support any inane idea that they just thought of to support their preconceived views.
There are a lot of different products in use which will cause health problems, if you don't take care (something that we should all have been taught). There have been some good suggestions in relation to the environmental situation to mitigate contamination.
I will add another suggestion to all of these as well. If you work with various heavy metals, you might want to consider adding beetroot to your diet on a daily basis. My father was a printer using lead type for many years. It got to the point that his health was being affected by lead poisoning. His GP told him to start eating beetroot every day. The reasoning was to stimulate the liver. Interestingly enough, his health improved and the quantity of lead in his system decreased till he was basically free of it after six months. A few years later, the printing works he was at dispensed with lead usage completely, but my father has continued to eat beetroot on a regular basis (not every day, but certainly a couple of time a week).
Now of course this is anecdotal and you can take it or leave it. But it can't hurt and for those who have a need, it may help. Of course, the beetroot mentioned is what we call beetroot in Australia, it may have some other name in other places in the world.
I will add another suggestion to all of these as well. If you work with various heavy metals, you might want to consider adding beetroot to your diet on a daily basis. My father was a printer using lead type for many years. It got to the point that his health was being affected by lead poisoning. His GP told him to start eating beetroot every day. The reasoning was to stimulate the liver. Interestingly enough, his health improved and the quantity of lead in his system decreased till he was basically free of it after six months. A few years later, the printing works he was at dispensed with lead usage completely, but my father has continued to eat beetroot on a regular basis (not every day, but certainly a couple of time a week).
Now of course this is anecdotal and you can take it or leave it. But it can't hurt and for those who have a need, it may help. Of course, the beetroot mentioned is what we call beetroot in Australia, it may have some other name in other places in the world.
A fitting username if there ever was...
Seeing the replies in this thread, I’m wondering if the narrative that only incompetent people need leaded solder might not be quite powerful in convincing people. More so than any warnings about health risks.
Seeing the replies in this thread, I’m wondering if the narrative that only incompetent people need leaded solder might not be quite powerful in convincing people. More so than any warnings about health risks.
Convincing people of what?
I openly acknowledge that I'm incompetent at soldering. Are you encouraging me to use leaded solder?
I openly acknowledge that I'm incompetent at soldering. Are you encouraging me to use leaded solder?
Not at all. Simply that if you have had some previous contamination, this might help clear up the problem. I said it was anecdotal but as it worked for my father, it might work for you. Why would I want to convince anyone to follow this regime? It is there for you to make a judgement call and do your own research into the matter. If it helps just one other person then it was useful. If you are not at all interested then don't investigate. That is entirely up to you.
I actually find it funny that when any kind of suggestion is made that might (notice the use of the word "might") help with some pre-existing condition, people make the immediate assumption that the person making the suggestion is then advocating to continue the activity that caused the pre-existing condition. In today's atmosphere, it almost appears that people have stopped trying to think for themselves. All I can suggest it that people stop jumping to conclusions and if something is unclear then ask some questions. Sure, there are people who are "trolls" (so to speak). But there are also many who are not.
Just yesterday, I came across a youtube comment that, in the context it was written it was meant to be sarcastic, was treated as if the the person making the comment was supporting what they were not. Essentially, there were only two of us who recognised the sarcasm, the other participants essentially treated the person as if they were an idiot. Go figure.
As far as soldering with non-lead based solder is concerned, it has been a good source for my son-in-law's repair business. The most common source of problems he has found has been the solder joints failing because of non-lead solder. He has also received quite a bit of equipment that was essentially being thrown out because of some unknown failure, which he often found boiled down again to faulty solder joints due to non-lead solder.
Is this an advocation for using lead solder? No. It is simply recognising that the processes for using non-lead solder will be a bit different. There are always consequences for changing to using different materials if the former are found to have health problems. However, I have seen that people don't always take that a change in processes is also required and so we get other problems arising.
At any rate, during this time of isolation, everyone keep safe and take the necessary precautions for the health of you and your loved ones.
I actually find it funny that when any kind of suggestion is made that might (notice the use of the word "might") help with some pre-existing condition, people make the immediate assumption that the person making the suggestion is then advocating to continue the activity that caused the pre-existing condition. In today's atmosphere, it almost appears that people have stopped trying to think for themselves. All I can suggest it that people stop jumping to conclusions and if something is unclear then ask some questions. Sure, there are people who are "trolls" (so to speak). But there are also many who are not.
Just yesterday, I came across a youtube comment that, in the context it was written it was meant to be sarcastic, was treated as if the the person making the comment was supporting what they were not. Essentially, there were only two of us who recognised the sarcasm, the other participants essentially treated the person as if they were an idiot. Go figure.
As far as soldering with non-lead based solder is concerned, it has been a good source for my son-in-law's repair business. The most common source of problems he has found has been the solder joints failing because of non-lead solder. He has also received quite a bit of equipment that was essentially being thrown out because of some unknown failure, which he often found boiled down again to faulty solder joints due to non-lead solder.
Is this an advocation for using lead solder? No. It is simply recognising that the processes for using non-lead solder will be a bit different. There are always consequences for changing to using different materials if the former are found to have health problems. However, I have seen that people don't always take that a change in processes is also required and so we get other problems arising.
At any rate, during this time of isolation, everyone keep safe and take the necessary precautions for the health of you and your loved ones.
Whoa, you totally misread my post.
I was not asking you that question. I was not reacting to your suggestion in the slightest. I was responding just to KarlKemp's mention of convincing people about leaded solder.
I was not asking you that question. I was not reacting to your suggestion in the slightest. I was responding just to KarlKemp's mention of convincing people about leaded solder.
Sorry that came out in not the way intended. I was simply using your post as a starting point for my comment to be to a more general audience. Your comment was nicely put and opened up the discussion for others as well. Your question was, from my perspective, a good pointed question which needed, in the general sense, to be asked.
Especially for people introducing children to electronics, make sure you're using lead-free materials. If for whatever reason lead is unavoidable in a project, make sure you're using good ventilation and wash thoroughly before going around your kids after you've handled lead.