KDE Slimbook: Linux Laptop with Ryzen 4000(kde.slimbook.es)
kde.slimbook.es
KDE Slimbook: Linux Laptop with Ryzen 4000
https://kde.slimbook.es/
304 comments
Looks nice. I would prefer a 4K display like my Precision 5530.
Do you find 4K in a 15 inch screen worth it? I’m in the verge of buying a 4K one, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the battery consumption in such a small screen.
I find it absolutely worth it, whenever I see a 1080p laptop screen I find myself continuously noticing how blurring the fonts are and how little I can fit on the display, high resolution monitor screens have meant that I find myself needing an external monitor far less often.
Otoh whenever I am on a 4k laptop the increased heat and decreased battery life are immediately noticeable.
I have it on my xps 13 and I'd say it's worth it. Everything looks amazing. There are two factors though, not all software plays nicely (im looking at you adobe) and it depebds in the additional cost.
It's an adjustment going back to a 1080p screen for a bit.
It's an adjustment going back to a 1080p screen for a bit.
The closer you are to the screen, the more resolution matters.
I want too much. I need a 4k oled display and I'd buy AMD so fast.
Schenker and Tuxedo will have one w/ a 100% DCI-P3 Samsung 4K OLED available in September https://www.reddit.com/r/XMG_gg/comments/hjxm80/launch_schen...
That is the best news I've heard all month! Thank you!
I had a few 4k laptops and .. eh .. they're excessive. I have a 4k monitor I do my photo editing on and it makes a difference, but a 13-15" laptop screen is really too small for me to care.
I'm often working out of a hotel and my laptop screen is my only screen. I can use the hotel TV but it's painful looking up-down-up-down. I can carry a portable external monitor but that becomes unmanageable when I need to pack light.
I usually prefer 2x scaling on a 4k screen, and then pictures and text are unscaled. I like being able to put a 1080p movie in the upper left corner and a reference webpage below that, then a big text editor to the right and 'work'.
I usually prefer 2x scaling on a 4k screen, and then pictures and text are unscaled. I like being able to put a 1080p movie in the upper left corner and a reference webpage below that, then a big text editor to the right and 'work'.
> I can use the hotel TV but it's painful looking up-down-up-down.
Why would you be looking up and down?
Why would you be looking up and down?
Often the TV is mounted on the wall above the desk I am working at. So you sit on the bed with your laptop instead and use Miracast and a Microsoft Wireless Display adapter (nice) - but looking near and far is painful as your eyes refocus.
I just find it simpler to have 1 high resolution screen where I can put high def content side-by-side or in quarters on screen.
For now this works, but in 10 years when movies and web pages are 4k by default I'll need an 8k laptop screen (haha)
(Probably at 17" though)
I just find it simpler to have 1 high resolution screen where I can put high def content side-by-side or in quarters on screen.
For now this works, but in 10 years when movies and web pages are 4k by default I'll need an 8k laptop screen (haha)
(Probably at 17" though)
I see. Very informative answer.
When I am working I only use one screen, and only one window in the screen, and instead I constantly switch between virtual desktops, to the point where I just think "browser", "editor", "terminal" without even perceiving the keystrokes.
However, for gaming I dream of having one of these ultrawide screens that have the resolution of 3 normal screens side by side. Something quite complicated to have in a laptop, but I have seen some attempts.
When I am working I only use one screen, and only one window in the screen, and instead I constantly switch between virtual desktops, to the point where I just think "browser", "editor", "terminal" without even perceiving the keystrokes.
However, for gaming I dream of having one of these ultrawide screens that have the resolution of 3 normal screens side by side. Something quite complicated to have in a laptop, but I have seen some attempts.
I'd prefer 1440p over 4k but I don't think OLED panels come in that size
Might want to pester Sager to put it on the AMD version: https://www.sagernotebook.com/15-Inch-to-16-Inch-Gaming-Lapt...
Do you use 4K currently with Linux? If so what screen resolution / scaling and what WM / desktop?
I’m using pop_os and I desperately want scaling to work and it doesn’t.
I’m using pop_os and I desperately want scaling to work and it doesn’t.
Not the person you asked, but I use a lightweight window manager and set the screen DPI correctly using xrandr, and/or set the font in each app I care about.
I’ve found this works well across high and low DPI machines.
I’ve found this works well across high and low DPI machines.
If you're not doing fractional scaling it works well. But fractional scaling is still rough - in particular all electron apps are blurry
Currently on Gnome+Wayland in a multi display setup that have different fractional scaling factors for each monitor. Usually 1:1:1.5 but I also tried 1:1.25:1.75 for the 1080p,1440p and 4K.
Gnome programs work perfectly. Qt looks good when wayland backend is force enabled but it causes crashes in certain situations so it's choice between slightly blurry text and occasional crash. Firefox works well, it used to require an environment variable not sure if it still does. Chrome support still not there, scale is correct but text is blurry.
Gnome programs work perfectly. Qt looks good when wayland backend is force enabled but it causes crashes in certain situations so it's choice between slightly blurry text and occasional crash. Firefox works well, it used to require an environment variable not sure if it still does. Chrome support still not there, scale is correct but text is blurry.
I haven't had any issues with display scaling using Fedora for quite some time.
I am odd. On Windows I use 2x scaling on a 4k screen. On Linux I go unscaled and just bump up the text size in editors and GTK/Qt apps.
I found that scaling killed performance for me on an old intel 6500U, so I bumped font sizes and icon sizes up and went unscaled. DrRacket is the only program that doesn't obey it currently. Even Emacs works fine.
Not meant to offend but im about to ditch my macbook 2014, can this machine run windows10?
Considering you can buy the laptop from other brands that ship with Windows you can probably get it to work.
You could get a laptop with windows and a dual boot linux. Did that with mine a few months ago using Ubuntu and it's been great.
Or run windows on its own disk / partition.
Then create a windows VM in linux with direct disk access.
Then create a windows VM in linux with direct disk access.
Still no good 13 inch options with ryzen 4000. Waiting for the thinkpad.
The thinkpads (t14 & t14s) are already out on most countries ;)
Lenovo X13?
That thing with AMD is actually faster than an X1 Extreme (in CPU performance). I'm pretty happy with my E495, but that X13 is tempting.
Yep, still get access denied via Cloudflare on this and can't access it.
A bit frustrating that there is no way to report that you might be seeing this message in error.
EDIT: Especially frustrating as I'm actively looking for a good Linux laptop to replace my MacBook - specifically I'm worried about compatibility with my thunderbolt docks
A bit frustrating that there is no way to report that you might be seeing this message in error.
EDIT: Especially frustrating as I'm actively looking for a good Linux laptop to replace my MacBook - specifically I'm worried about compatibility with my thunderbolt docks
Hmm. This comment and the reply got me thinking... I wonder how many people are erroneously being blocked by CF at any one moment?
It sadly seems impossible to eliminate all the maliciousness without also impacting legitimate users, but it's obviously a low enough number that the various little uproars never really gain momentum.
But thinking about how technical users severely impacted by the situation gives me an idea: a Chrome/FF extension could trivially the various CF block/captcha page HTML, and fire off a ping to a server somewhere with some statistics about ISP, (very) coarse location (eg, capital city resolution), time of day, optionally the website in question... hmm, and maybe the server could have an account/distinction system, so it could let users who cannot access XYZ website they don't want to disclose, how many other users in their area are also unable to access the site...
Hmm. Thinking this through was useful. There are a lot of tricky privacy balances this would need to upset in order to be most practical. And then on top of that the malicious users would probably figure out a way to ruin such a service :/
Wait. Maybe use an invite system with a user tree?
</thinking_out_loud>
It sadly seems impossible to eliminate all the maliciousness without also impacting legitimate users, but it's obviously a low enough number that the various little uproars never really gain momentum.
But thinking about how technical users severely impacted by the situation gives me an idea: a Chrome/FF extension could trivially the various CF block/captcha page HTML, and fire off a ping to a server somewhere with some statistics about ISP, (very) coarse location (eg, capital city resolution), time of day, optionally the website in question... hmm, and maybe the server could have an account/distinction system, so it could let users who cannot access XYZ website they don't want to disclose, how many other users in their area are also unable to access the site...
Hmm. Thinking this through was useful. There are a lot of tricky privacy balances this would need to upset in order to be most practical. And then on top of that the malicious users would probably figure out a way to ruin such a service :/
Wait. Maybe use an invite system with a user tree?
</thinking_out_loud>
(NB: A small footnote that I usually do not /dev/keyboard this badly; I certainly _was_ tired this morning. "Affected by the situation might react"; "could trivially parse"; "disclose, know how many".
It thinks I'm a terrorist or something. My access is denied with
This website is using a security service to protect
itself from online attacks.(I replied to the parent comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924503.)
It's blocking me too. I have no issues with other Cloudflare sites however. I wonder what site-specific firewall filters has been triggered.
Could be site individual rules set by the site owner. Maybe they blocked whole countries or regions.
no thunderbolt with amd laptops at the moment
Do you know of any intel based machines that work well with thunderbolt docks and are worth considering?
Very happy with my (5th generation) ThinkPad X1 Carbon running NixOS and connected to a Toshiba Thunderbolt 3 dock. Everything works just perfectly.
Dell XPSs are very good
True, but often you can use type c support.
I'm using a type c plug to run my monitor, USB hub and charge my amd laptop right now
Asus g14
I'm using a type c plug to run my monitor, USB hub and charge my amd laptop right now
Asus g14
I should specify these are USB-C thunderbolt docks, attached to LG 4K Ultrafine monitors + USB Keyboard and mouse.
The whole USB-C/Thunderbolt split still confuses me so apologies if I'm making terminology mistakes :)
The whole USB-C/Thunderbolt split still confuses me so apologies if I'm making terminology mistakes :)
This particular laptop doesn’t have USB-C DisplayPort support either. It does have Power Delivery though, I’ve measured up to 90W.
> This particular laptop doesn’t have USB-C DisplayPort support either.
Which is a real shame, I'm quite determined to have a single cable AMD model for my next laptop. Currently the best lineups for that seem to be Lenovo ThinkPads and Yogas.
Which is a real shame, I'm quite determined to have a single cable AMD model for my next laptop. Currently the best lineups for that seem to be Lenovo ThinkPads and Yogas.
So this looks like the walmart MOTILE laptop[0][1], but rebranded?
Is this basically a System76[2]-like effort?
[EDIT] - I own an System76 Oryx Pro and love it -- this laptop being a rebranded effort is not a bad thing in my mind, if anything it gives me more faith in the initial build quality. If the KDE org gets it just as right as System76 (open source drivers galore, fantastic system tooling and support), then this is going to be a boon for open source everywhere, more money in KDE's pockets, more linux-first machines out there.
[0]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/MOTILE-14-Performance-Laptop-FHD-...
[1]: https://the-gadgeteer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Motile-...
[2]: https://system76.com/laptops
Is this basically a System76[2]-like effort?
[EDIT] - I own an System76 Oryx Pro and love it -- this laptop being a rebranded effort is not a bad thing in my mind, if anything it gives me more faith in the initial build quality. If the KDE org gets it just as right as System76 (open source drivers galore, fantastic system tooling and support), then this is going to be a boon for open source everywhere, more money in KDE's pockets, more linux-first machines out there.
[0]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/MOTILE-14-Performance-Laptop-FHD-...
[1]: https://the-gadgeteer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Motile-...
[2]: https://system76.com/laptops
Definitely not just a rebrand. For one, this has dual channel RAM, the MOTILE has single-channel.
Also, not sure the MOTILE is even available with Ryzen 4 (only Ryzen 3 or Ryzen 5).
Possibly uses a similar chassis, but not even sure about that. Possibly same manufacturer.
Also, not sure the MOTILE is even available with Ryzen 4 (only Ryzen 3 or Ryzen 5).
Possibly uses a similar chassis, but not even sure about that. Possibly same manufacturer.
It's a refresh of the last gen model. Technically, the 14" Motile M142 was the "rebrand" (OEM) of the TongFang (ODM) PF4PU1F (P for Picasso) and the new one is the TongFang PF4NU1F (N for Renoir). It's been available for about a month now in China as the Mechrevo S2 Air (you can find it on JD.com or see mostly Chinese reviews on YouTube) and is also on sale in Korea by Hansung/Monsterlabs.
It's using the exact same chassis, but as you mentioned this generation is a significant internal improvement - not just dual-channel RAM, but also significantly upgraded TDP (54W vs 22W) with new dual-fan, dual-heat pipe cooling, plus USB-C PD.
The 15" refresh the PF5NU1G was also launched at the same time initially as the Mechrevo Code 01. I've posted earlier in this thread linking to all the details about it for those that are interested, since I have one.
It's using the exact same chassis, but as you mentioned this generation is a significant internal improvement - not just dual-channel RAM, but also significantly upgraded TDP (54W vs 22W) with new dual-fan, dual-heat pipe cooling, plus USB-C PD.
The 15" refresh the PF5NU1G was also launched at the same time initially as the Mechrevo Code 01. I've posted earlier in this thread linking to all the details about it for those that are interested, since I have one.
Cool, thanks. Other than the lack of dual core Ram and some cooling issues, the original sounded like a great cheap laptop.
I'd personally also no longer buy a laptop without usb-c-pd.
Sounds like they've addressed those. I hope Walmart picks it up.
I'd personally also no longer buy a laptop without usb-c-pd.
Sounds like they've addressed those. I hope Walmart picks it up.
Are you sure? The keyboards look really different for a rebrand.
The keyboards look the same -- there are two slightly different models, check out the bottom right of this picture:
https://kde.slimbook.es/assets/img/IMG_0778_e.jpg
https://kde.slimbook.es/assets/img/IMG_0778_e.jpg
It's made by Tongfeng and rebranded by Mechrevo, Schenker, Tuxedo, etc.
Replying here in the hopes someone knows if anyone resells these in Australia. Last I looked it was all Clevo.
Thanks for this insight, did not know of Tongfang (tongfeng lead to the wrong company in some quick googling)
[deleted]
Oh my god...is that a 15" laptop without a number pad being crammed onto the side of the keyboard, thus not forcing all my typing to be awkwardly offset and uncomfortable?
This is my beef with laptops. I bought a huge laptop just so I could have a numberpad.
But I've been amazed at how many programmers don't like to have them. Why?
But I've been amazed at how many programmers don't like to have them. Why?
Why would I use numpad?
Even on normal keyboards I don't use it, and they are annoying because they make the mouse position awkwardly more to the right than it should be healthy for the arm (I really envy left handed people, they don't have to deal with this).
And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad, fortunately I found two such keyboards and I have one at work and one at home (Logitech K310 and Microsoft Sculpt).
And I haven't seen in live any person that uses numpad, I always thought it is used by accountants only (and those that don't want to use two hands to enter numbers).
Even on normal keyboards I don't use it, and they are annoying because they make the mouse position awkwardly more to the right than it should be healthy for the arm (I really envy left handed people, they don't have to deal with this).
And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad, fortunately I found two such keyboards and I have one at work and one at home (Logitech K310 and Microsoft Sculpt).
And I haven't seen in live any person that uses numpad, I always thought it is used by accountants only (and those that don't want to use two hands to enter numbers).
FYI: Keyboards without the numpad block are called "TenKeyLess Keyboards" (sometimes it is abbreviated to TKL acronym) or 87/80% keyboards.
In short research, I found they are hundreds of them available on Amazon, Aliexpress. However, most of them have mechanical switches[0][1], some of them have conducted switches (like Topre[2]) and it is very rarely to see cheap, typical office-use TKL keyboards made by companies like Microsoft or Logitech but Matias have at least sell one model [3].
It might be handy to read a short guide [4] of keyboard naming by their sizes, whether you will look for new keyboard in future.
[0]: https://www.amazon.com/10-keyless-keyboard/s?k=10+keyless+ke...
[1]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mechanical%20Ke...
[2]: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=topre&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
[3]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mac/Standard/Te...
[4]: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...
In short research, I found they are hundreds of them available on Amazon, Aliexpress. However, most of them have mechanical switches[0][1], some of them have conducted switches (like Topre[2]) and it is very rarely to see cheap, typical office-use TKL keyboards made by companies like Microsoft or Logitech but Matias have at least sell one model [3].
It might be handy to read a short guide [4] of keyboard naming by their sizes, whether you will look for new keyboard in future.
[0]: https://www.amazon.com/10-keyless-keyboard/s?k=10+keyless+ke...
[1]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mechanical%20Ke...
[2]: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=topre&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
[3]: https://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?path=Mac/Standard/Te...
[4]: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...
The number pad has:
- It's own tactile identifier
- Easy access to numeric operators
- Diminished use of the pinky finger
- The only actual 'enter' key on the keyboard
I admit that it's subjective. 'Tenkeyless' is a standard mechanical keyboard trope for a reason.
- It's own tactile identifier
- Easy access to numeric operators
- plus without shift
- Diminished use of the pinky finger
- The only actual 'enter' key on the keyboard
I admit that it's subjective. 'Tenkeyless' is a standard mechanical keyboard trope for a reason.
And all of that is actually bad because it is so ridiculously far from the home row that you have to move your wrist to reach it.
What can you actually do faster on the numpad if the starting position is your right index finger resting on J?
Because that's where it should always be.
What can you actually do faster on the numpad if the starting position is your right index finger resting on J?
Because that's where it should always be.
Typing IP addresses + gateways + DNS servers.
Also, numerical operations / form filling while consuming liquid or holding a pet. It's surprising the number of times the ability to perform even a subset of tasks while not having both hands to dedicate has allowed me to maintain focus and interest instead of stopping dead and having to spool back up slowly.
> Because that's where it should always be.
I must admit, I have yet to figure out how to maintain this discipline while whiteboarding, let alone walking, or sleeping.
Also, numerical operations / form filling while consuming liquid or holding a pet. It's surprising the number of times the ability to perform even a subset of tasks while not having both hands to dedicate has allowed me to maintain focus and interest instead of stopping dead and having to spool back up slowly.
> Because that's where it should always be.
I must admit, I have yet to figure out how to maintain this discipline while whiteboarding, let alone walking, or sleeping.
> Typing IP addresses + gateways + DNS servers.
What line of work are you in? A cross between hardware and software?
If one is in pure software it seems extremely error-prone to be typing in numbers all the time manually.
What line of work are you in? A cross between hardware and software?
If one is in pure software it seems extremely error-prone to be typing in numbers all the time manually.
Going from qwerty to number pad is a context switch. Once you've paid the price for the switch your middle finger rests above the 5, and you can quickly enter numeric information.
Numbers on the top of qwerty are good for incidental numbers when entering text, but around 5 consecutive digits is enough for me to move.
Are they useful enough to add to a laptop keyboard? Probably not.
Numbers on the top of qwerty are good for incidental numbers when entering text, but around 5 consecutive digits is enough for me to move.
Are they useful enough to add to a laptop keyboard? Probably not.
> And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad
???
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/
???
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/
It still amazes me why so many people like mechanical keyboards, I hate them because they are loud and require much more key travel to type - and that slows me down a lot.
I only use keyboards that have low-key travel and are silent - basically anything that resembles laptop keyboard.
EDIT: Sorry for sounding a bit harsh, but keyboard-without-numpad != mechanical keyboard, which are quite niche, I wasn't aware that a niche product has a also niche variation - lack of numpad :)
I only use keyboards that have low-key travel and are silent - basically anything that resembles laptop keyboard.
EDIT: Sorry for sounding a bit harsh, but keyboard-without-numpad != mechanical keyboard, which are quite niche, I wasn't aware that a niche product has a also niche variation - lack of numpad :)
Try looking into the "silent" keyswitch variations, e.g. Cherry MX Silent Reds.
The strength of the mechanical market, the reason why it's getting bigger, is not that it's mechanical and "clicky"(that's the stereotype), but that it's customizable. All of it. Case, PCB, keyswitches, keycaps, stabilizers. If you don't like the switches stock, they can be relubricated and modded with rubber O-rings. If you want a dampened response the stabilizers and keycaps can be heavier. The hobby has developed from that over the last decade - being able to take the platform and "own" it.
Yes, you can get a low-profile scissor switch design and it'll be quiet and function for years. But it will also be unmaintainable and resist even basic cleaning.
The strength of the mechanical market, the reason why it's getting bigger, is not that it's mechanical and "clicky"(that's the stereotype), but that it's customizable. All of it. Case, PCB, keyswitches, keycaps, stabilizers. If you don't like the switches stock, they can be relubricated and modded with rubber O-rings. If you want a dampened response the stabilizers and keycaps can be heavier. The hobby has developed from that over the last decade - being able to take the platform and "own" it.
Yes, you can get a low-profile scissor switch design and it'll be quiet and function for years. But it will also be unmaintainable and resist even basic cleaning.
Unlike non-mechanicals, a mech registers the key press before you hit the bottom.
The trick is, on a scissor switch (or butterfly) keyboard the key travel is so short there is no really hitting bottom. Yes, from a mech keyboard perspective you "hit bottom" every time, but I find it a superior typing experience over trying to catch that halfway point when the key is actuated.
I have to say low profile blue switches offer quite a nice typing experience though, quite comparable with scissor switches.
I have to say low profile blue switches offer quite a nice typing experience though, quite comparable with scissor switches.
I believe they meant they keyboards built into the laptops, not separate accessories you plug into the laptop.
Most laptop keyboard are tenkeyless so that wouldn't make sense. They also listed two discrete/separate keyboards as examples so that further enforces that they were not talking about laptops.
I'm left handed but can only use a mouse right-handed, so I can see how a numpad could be an issue, however;
> And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad
Every single keyboard in my home, would like to disagree with you. I have at least a dozen, not one with a numpad.
A lot of them are mechanical, Tenkeyless (TKL) which is my favourite size, and is _literally_ a numpadless form factor.
You might say, that they don't count because they're mechanical, or expensive, or loud, or some other argument, non of which are unavoidable, but, if you want to argue concern about comfort of keyboards and long term use, I think you should seriously consider investing in a half decent mechanical. There are ergonomic form factors, and variety of sizes and key counts from 40% to over 100% (of standard).
You can get a cheap TKL for as little as £30, or hand build one like some of mine for £500-700+ and everything in between.
> And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad
Every single keyboard in my home, would like to disagree with you. I have at least a dozen, not one with a numpad.
A lot of them are mechanical, Tenkeyless (TKL) which is my favourite size, and is _literally_ a numpadless form factor.
You might say, that they don't count because they're mechanical, or expensive, or loud, or some other argument, non of which are unavoidable, but, if you want to argue concern about comfort of keyboards and long term use, I think you should seriously consider investing in a half decent mechanical. There are ergonomic form factors, and variety of sizes and key counts from 40% to over 100% (of standard).
You can get a cheap TKL for as little as £30, or hand build one like some of mine for £500-700+ and everything in between.
Thanks, now I know about the strange name for those keyboards :)
It is a bit harder to find non-mechanical (I love low key travel and silence) one and one that is wireless, which I prefer but I see there are ones :)
It is a bit harder to find non-mechanical (I love low key travel and silence) one and one that is wireless, which I prefer but I see there are ones :)
If you happen to like Thinkpad keyboards, Lenovo on and off sells external USB and bluetooth keyboards with the Thinkpad brand. They feel identical to laptops of the same era when they are manufactured, and they have the same embedded trackpoint and buttons.
I am typing this on an old USB one that greatly resembles the keyboard on an X200 or T400 laptop. This old thing even has the little touchpad from those days and therefore identical palm rest areas. I also have a newer bluetooth unit that is just like my T495, minus the touchpad. I miss the touchpad even though I use the trackpoint for all pointer movement. I like to keep edge-scrolling enabled on the touchpad on my old keyboard as well as on my actual laptop.
One caveat is that the trackpoint acceleration profile seems different for these external devices, so switching back end forth between these and the built-in Thinkpad controls can feel clumsy while your fingers and eyes readjust.
I am typing this on an old USB one that greatly resembles the keyboard on an X200 or T400 laptop. This old thing even has the little touchpad from those days and therefore identical palm rest areas. I also have a newer bluetooth unit that is just like my T495, minus the touchpad. I miss the touchpad even though I use the trackpoint for all pointer movement. I like to keep edge-scrolling enabled on the touchpad on my old keyboard as well as on my actual laptop.
One caveat is that the trackpoint acceleration profile seems different for these external devices, so switching back end forth between these and the built-in Thinkpad controls can feel clumsy while your fingers and eyes readjust.
You're welcome. For reference, the noise and travel issues you mention have solutions in mech world, wireless boards exist, althought I don't have any myself so I can't say much on them.
Lookup Vortex brand keyboards. I have a Pok3r which has no numpad and is quite small in footprint but still has a full size layout for letter keys. It is weird at first not having dedicated arrow keys but once you are used to it it's quite comfortable.
I have the Vortex Race 3, which basically is a Pok3r, but with dedicaded arrow keys, F-keys, home/end/pgup/pgdn, and still squeezes all into a very compact form factor. The Pok3r is useless to me, absolutely can't get used to the additional combos required to get to frequently-used keys.
You can learn to left mouse. If your mouse is ambidextrous already, move it over to the left of your keyboard and try it for 30-60 minutes a day for a couple weeks. I like left-mousing at work and right-mousing at home (strange I know), and when I left mouse, I prefer the buttons flipped (index finger always is 'left click', etc).
If your mouse is right-hand specific, try getting a ambidextrous one next time. Most of the ambidextrous mice these days are gaming mice, but they work fine for pushing cursors around too.
If your mouse is right-hand specific, try getting a ambidextrous one next time. Most of the ambidextrous mice these days are gaming mice, but they work fine for pushing cursors around too.
> And it is next to impossible to get a keyboard without the numpad
Search for "keyboard TKL", easy peasy.
Search for "keyboard TKL", easy peasy.
I also have Sculpt, it's a wonderful keyboard. I hope it won't be discontinued as the follow-up bluetooth model is unusable.
Anyway, I still do use the separate numpad every time I need to input numeric PINs or monetary values.
Anyway, I still do use the separate numpad every time I need to input numeric PINs or monetary values.
The offset typing causes repetitive stress injuries which are very painful and can end a career. For people that use mice, one handed trackballs, a one handed touch pad, doubly so on external keyboards because it forces the mouse hand abnormally out and away from the body. All that for a bunch of keys I haven't used in years because they are useless as a programmer.
Laptop manufactures who don't offer keyboards without numpads, to me, care so little about their customers that their laptops aren't worth shit. I'm looking specifically are all laptops > 14" from system 76. If they want to be taken seriously as a manufacturer, they should consider a line of 15" or 16" laptops that aren't going to leave people in pain, considering changing careers. Of course, I only use the internal keyboard when absolutely necessary and can't use an external with an external display, and it still makes that big of a difference.
Ergonomics matter.
Laptop manufactures who don't offer keyboards without numpads, to me, care so little about their customers that their laptops aren't worth shit. I'm looking specifically are all laptops > 14" from system 76. If they want to be taken seriously as a manufacturer, they should consider a line of 15" or 16" laptops that aren't going to leave people in pain, considering changing careers. Of course, I only use the internal keyboard when absolutely necessary and can't use an external with an external display, and it still makes that big of a difference.
Ergonomics matter.
I don't feel a need for one, I type code all day, not lots of numbers. I want my hands centered on the device, not offset to the left.
There are a row of numbers at the top of the keyboard, don't need two sets.
I think I pressed a key (any key) on my number pad less than ten times in 6 years. I don't have any use case for a numberpad. Maybe if I still played Nethack.
Do you use it for the numbers, or the navigation keys?
My hands cover the two sides of my keyboard perfectly. The numpad just breaks that.
Becuase duplicated keys waste space. So they make the keys smaller and more clumped just to fit some keys TWICE.
BTW don't get me started on Ctrl/Fn confusion. Every other laptop I have switches these keys around.
BTW don't get me started on Ctrl/Fn confusion. Every other laptop I have switches these keys around.
I'm also a numpad fan, and wouldn't have a keyboard without one.
Aside from making it much faster to enter numbers, I also really like it for gaming - instead of using WASD, I use the numpad 4,8,6,2). This means a whole bunch of other keys are right there for use by the same hand, e.g. 7/9 for jump, "/" for throw, 1 for crouch, 3 for prone etc. I realise this is controversial tho!
Aside from making it much faster to enter numbers, I also really like it for gaming - instead of using WASD, I use the numpad 4,8,6,2). This means a whole bunch of other keys are right there for use by the same hand, e.g. 7/9 for jump, "/" for throw, 1 for crouch, 3 for prone etc. I realise this is controversial tho!
I'm left handed.
I can use the number row to touch type numbers and don't have to move my hands.
Edit: people who say numbers without shift: do you realize you can switch the keyboard layout using Alt+Shift ?
Edit: people who say numbers without shift: do you realize you can switch the keyboard layout using Alt+Shift ?
In the 15-inch range, ones labelled "15.4" inches usually don't have a keypad, while "15.6" generally do.
The ThinkPad X1 Extreme (Gen 3 has just been released) is another nice one.
They ruined that by adding nvidia. All 15" ones usually do. Precision 7550 is the rare 15" laptop that lets you configure it to your heart's content without nvidia, but it has the numpad.
I think there are plenty of people doing machine learning, deep learning, ray tracing on the go that might appreciate such laptop.
All the ML stuff needs linux (or wsl if you are so inclined), and nvidia + laptop + linux = bad combination.
I haven't had an nVidia laptop in ages: on the desktop linux + nvidia drivers works just fine most of the time, even on rolling release distros.
laptops are very different since they have two gpus, one internal panel, possible external monitors, and any permutation of wiring of gpus to panel/monitors, battery and thermal constraints, screen tearing issues, etc. Stay away.
Why does that combo go wrong in a laptop?
Because nvidia optimus drivers are not open sourced and a huge PITA in some linux distros/desktop environments who wish to stay as FOSS as possible.
Not a problem on desktops since they don't have optimus but on laptops without a proper optimus implementation for linux you'll end up with your 1660TI or whatever running at full blast with just your terminal opened, killing your battery in no-time and turning your laptop into a frying pan.
That's why linux devs prefer no nvidia dGPUs on their laptops.
Not a problem on desktops since they don't have optimus but on laptops without a proper optimus implementation for linux you'll end up with your 1660TI or whatever running at full blast with just your terminal opened, killing your battery in no-time and turning your laptop into a frying pan.
That's why linux devs prefer no nvidia dGPUs on their laptops.
It's not just a foss v/s proprietary issue. Clarifying for the OP. Even with the blobs, it's a subpar experience due to the optimus madness.
I gave my MSI Ghost Pro 4K gaming laptop to my mother to browse the internet and bought an XPS. For her, in windows, it works ok, and if she launches anything that needs the Nvidia card it'll enable/disable as required.
Using that laptop in Linux was the bane of my life, Optimus is hell and if you want to switch between Intel/AMD you need to reboot, no thanks.
You can't use it for VR if you have the type of Optimus I had, where if the display was connected to the Intel rather than to the Nvidia, it wouldn't work. If you left Nvidia on, and tried to use it as a laptop, you'd be lucky to get 20 minutes battery life (not exaggerating), so it was neither great for gaming nor useful for productivity.
Using that laptop in Linux was the bane of my life, Optimus is hell and if you want to switch between Intel/AMD you need to reboot, no thanks.
You can't use it for VR if you have the type of Optimus I had, where if the display was connected to the Intel rather than to the Nvidia, it wouldn't work. If you left Nvidia on, and tried to use it as a laptop, you'd be lucky to get 20 minutes battery life (not exaggerating), so it was neither great for gaming nor useful for productivity.
They work quite well on Windows, no need to pollute my installation with WSL.
WSL is for the folks that buy macOS instead of giving money to Linux OEMs, and now are looking elsewhere but still not for Linux OEMs.
WSL is for the folks that buy macOS instead of giving money to Linux OEMs, and now are looking elsewhere but still not for Linux OEMs.
There are still many 15" laptops, mainly branded as ultrabooks or similar, that don't have discrete graphics cards. The ThinkPad T15, for instance, although it also has a numpad.
While a personally agree with you thoroughly, this weekend I learned that Thai people love number pads because the language has too many characters and it's own numerals, yet most of the time people use/prefer Arabic numerals, so with a number pad they have access to the numbers without having to swap keyboard layouts to English just for numerals.
It's the same with the French, every French person I know is using the number pad a lot when typing on a French layout. The reason being that in the usual top row you have the accented characters and for numbers you have to press shift, so it's easier to use the number pad. As a side note the French keyboard layout is one of the worst to use if you are not French. Typing your password at an Internet cafe can be a real pain.
How many accented characters are there in French?
In Polish we have 9 such characters and most people use just so called "programmers keyboard layout" which uses left-alt + letter to do the accent.
E.g. alt + e = ę, alt + l = ł (with a one case where we have two different accents for a single letter: z, so we use alt+z = ż and alt+x = ź, the second letter is less commonly used then the first one)
20-30 years ago there were some strange keyboard layouts that didn't use alt, but hopefully they were forgotten.
In Polish we have 9 such characters and most people use just so called "programmers keyboard layout" which uses left-alt + letter to do the accent.
E.g. alt + e = ę, alt + l = ł (with a one case where we have two different accents for a single letter: z, so we use alt+z = ż and alt+x = ź, the second letter is less commonly used then the first one)
20-30 years ago there were some strange keyboard layouts that didn't use alt, but hopefully they were forgotten.
Before 90s "Polish typist's layout" was more popular, it was based on QWERTZ and had the <>?/[]();: signs moved out of the way to put Polish letters there.
All typing machines used it, but it was awful for programming obviously, so the "Polish programmer's layout" was added, and because it was exactly the same as standard american QWERTY (except for Left Alt + some letters) it won almost overnight.
Windows still shipped with both layouts enabled for Polish locale for decades, and nobody used the typis one, but there was a shortcut that changed between them.
When you accidentally used that shortcut - if you had Y or Z or Polish letters in your password - you couldn't log in (because you typed "yeti" but got "zeti" but it still looked like * * * * :) )
I think there must have been millions of USD lost on support calls because of that little shortcut :)
All typing machines used it, but it was awful for programming obviously, so the "Polish programmer's layout" was added, and because it was exactly the same as standard american QWERTY (except for Left Alt + some letters) it won almost overnight.
Windows still shipped with both layouts enabled for Polish locale for decades, and nobody used the typis one, but there was a shortcut that changed between them.
When you accidentally used that shortcut - if you had Y or Z or Polish letters in your password - you couldn't log in (because you typed "yeti" but got "zeti" but it still looked like * * * * :) )
I think there must have been millions of USD lost on support calls because of that little shortcut :)
I think a misunderstanding occured here: AltGr is actually the right Alt key. The left one is the regular Alt.
If I remember correctly shortcuts to change layout/language are by default Ctrl+Shift and Alt+Shift respectively (correct me if I'm wrong). These are incredibly annoying, especially in some games. Luckily though you can disable them from the settings. Instead there's Win+Space, which is a Godsend and should've always been the only default.
Fun fact: on Windows Polish programmer's keyboard you can use the Tilde key (Shift+Grave) to input Polish characters as well, e.g. press Shift+Grave (it won't put in any symbol at this point), release and then press 's' to input 'ś'. However it makes it problematic to input the tilde symbol itself, so I've modified my layout with the MS Keyboard Layout Creator to get rid of that functionality/flaw (aside from other minor improvements) https://www.microsoft.com/download/details.aspx?id=22339
If I remember correctly shortcuts to change layout/language are by default Ctrl+Shift and Alt+Shift respectively (correct me if I'm wrong). These are incredibly annoying, especially in some games. Luckily though you can disable them from the settings. Instead there's Win+Space, which is a Godsend and should've always been the only default.
Fun fact: on Windows Polish programmer's keyboard you can use the Tilde key (Shift+Grave) to input Polish characters as well, e.g. press Shift+Grave (it won't put in any symbol at this point), release and then press 's' to input 'ś'. However it makes it problematic to input the tilde symbol itself, so I've modified my layout with the MS Keyboard Layout Creator to get rid of that functionality/flaw (aside from other minor improvements) https://www.microsoft.com/download/details.aspx?id=22339
Right, it's the right alt, not left:) It's muscle memory to the point I had to check myself doing it to be sure :)
The shortcut to change was definitely something with Ctrl and Shift because I remember accidently switching layout when I was selecting text by whole words with Ctrl+Shift+Left/Right.
Tilde works funny on linux - it makes alternative version of every letter, not only from the current locale. I was accused of being a Russian pretending to be Polish on some Polish forum long ago because I wrote something with a Greek (or cyrylic?) letter by accident because I did something with home directory in the background and only pressed ~ once instead of twice :)
The shortcut to change was definitely something with Ctrl and Shift because I remember accidently switching layout when I was selecting text by whole words with Ctrl+Shift+Left/Right.
Tilde works funny on linux - it makes alternative version of every letter, not only from the current locale. I was accused of being a Russian pretending to be Polish on some Polish forum long ago because I wrote something with a Greek (or cyrylic?) letter by accident because I did something with home directory in the background and only pressed ~ once instead of twice :)
On the AZERTY keyboard there's éèàç (I know ç is not technically an accent) and the circonflexe and tréma accents as dead keys. This is apparently enough to cause massive confusion on QWERTY keyboards and for everyone to accept discarding accents on uppercase letters (ÉÀÇ). Also it's apparently advantageous enough to accept pushing []{} to silly alt combinations.
Some people move to BÉPO or something like that, I use QWERTY with Xcompose.
Some people move to BÉPO or something like that, I use QWERTY with Xcompose.
In Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (Latin) we have č ć š đ ž, but we've just repurposed extra keys from English characters (to the right of l and p).
We've retained x y q (no purpose in our alphabet), making it quite convenient to just type using the native keyboard layout, regardless if I'm writing in my native language or in English.
We've retained x y q (no purpose in our alphabet), making it quite convenient to just type using the native keyboard layout, regardless if I'm writing in my native language or in English.
Some improvement is being proposed: https://norme-azerty.fr/
French Canadian here. Here are all the accents and special characters I use to write, and I'm not sure if I'm forgetting some that I rarely use.
à â ç é è ê î ï ô ö ù
à â ç é è ê î ï ô ö ù
on the row of number keys: éèçà
on the right of the keyboard: ù
but that's enough to want accents and symbols on the number row by default (&é"'(-è_çà) and numbers when pressing shift.
I think that's the reason that bépo (a French variant of dvorak which allows easy access of both common accentuated keys and numbers) is more popular among French speakers than dvorak is for English speakers, proportionally.
on the right of the keyboard: ù
but that's enough to want accents and symbols on the number row by default (&é"'(-è_çà) and numbers when pressing shift.
I think that's the reason that bépo (a French variant of dvorak which allows easy access of both common accentuated keys and numbers) is more popular among French speakers than dvorak is for English speakers, proportionally.
Offtopic, but the ù has a dedicated key (no modifiers) basically for one word: "où" (where)
In my language we have ľščťžýáíé äúô - first group is on number row, second group is on the right of the keyboard where you have []; on EN layout.
I have never seen anyone use an Alt+number to get these, I personally default to EN layout and switch only when I write in local language.
I have never seen anyone use an Alt+number to get these, I personally default to EN layout and switch only when I write in local language.
My father still uses the alt-less layout. I can only navigate it because my first steps in typing were done on a mechanical typewriter, which this layout tries to emulate.
> the French keyboard layout is one of the worst to use if you are not French
It's also terrible if you're French.
It's also terrible if you're French.
> worst to use if you are not French
Even then, plenty french programmers use a qwerty layout of some sort. I saw people using the Canadian layout, and the international layout is I think the most efficient for IT stuff, even if it requires getting used to composing accentuated characters.
Even then, plenty french programmers use a qwerty layout of some sort. I saw people using the Canadian layout, and the international layout is I think the most efficient for IT stuff, even if it requires getting used to composing accentuated characters.
THIS. Is so ลำบาก[^1]. I tend to use my iPhone/iPad to type certain kinds of stuff because of the dedicated "123" modifier.
[^1]: Completely off topic, but I love when there are words that capture a feeling in one language for which there isn't a suitable analogue in another. For non-Thai speakers, this word means burdensome, but depending on context covers the whole span of "inconvenient" to "distressing". In general, though, I find English has more individual words that express an entire concept vs. Thai which has to use compound words to explain its meaning.
[^1]: Completely off topic, but I love when there are words that capture a feeling in one language for which there isn't a suitable analogue in another. For non-Thai speakers, this word means burdensome, but depending on context covers the whole span of "inconvenient" to "distressing". In general, though, I find English has more individual words that express an entire concept vs. Thai which has to use compound words to explain its meaning.
Since you are being offtopic, I'm joining you. As someone that isn't Thai, living in Europe but does like the country/people and is trying to learn some Thai, it is always great fun to randomly see Thai words somewhere so I can try to see if I can pronounce the word already. Sadly enough, I wasn't able to haha
I've learned from Thai speakers that there are multiple words that mean multiple things depending on the context. Where as English (and Dutch) do have this sometimes, but less often than Thai words. I am pretty sure (but correct me if I'm wrong) that both Chinese, Japanese and Korean have this too.
Dutch also has some interesting words that cannot be directly translated to English. In Dutch we don't have 'siblings', we have 'broers en zussen' where 'broers' are your brothers and 'sisters' are your sisters. There is no word that we use for both of them. Same with the word 'gezin', it means the family you are living with.
Another one is 'giftig' which has 2 english words too. Poisonous and venomous, but in Dutch it is the same thing.
I've learned from Thai speakers that there are multiple words that mean multiple things depending on the context. Where as English (and Dutch) do have this sometimes, but less often than Thai words. I am pretty sure (but correct me if I'm wrong) that both Chinese, Japanese and Korean have this too.
Dutch also has some interesting words that cannot be directly translated to English. In Dutch we don't have 'siblings', we have 'broers en zussen' where 'broers' are your brothers and 'sisters' are your sisters. There is no word that we use for both of them. Same with the word 'gezin', it means the family you are living with.
Another one is 'giftig' which has 2 english words too. Poisonous and venomous, but in Dutch it is the same thing.
I actually didn't know this word either, so it was good vocab. Thai's abugida is pretty complicated, but once you memorize the rules, there's not too many spelling exceptions, and a lot of words are pronounced about as as you'd expect.
If you're looking for something more phonetic possible as a stepping stone, Lao, despite having less content to consume, is much, much easier to learn where the abugidas look about the same if you squint; you could look at Lao as simplified Thai (with a 6th tone). Lao had a spelling reform recently that dropped all the duplicate letters for Pali/Sanskrit words, there's no implied vowel (and they change form less), there's no การันต์ (◌์), and the final consonants are normalized to the sound it makes. Lao and Thai are asymmetrically intelligible where Lao people understand Thai but not the other way around. That said, the Northeastern Thai dialect, อีสาน, is almost identical with small dialectal differences. Grammatically they are the same so anything you learn in one will almost certainly transfer to the other with just a different vocabulary set for common words (to do, to work, I, you, man, woman, etc.).
If you're looking for something more phonetic possible as a stepping stone, Lao, despite having less content to consume, is much, much easier to learn where the abugidas look about the same if you squint; you could look at Lao as simplified Thai (with a 6th tone). Lao had a spelling reform recently that dropped all the duplicate letters for Pali/Sanskrit words, there's no implied vowel (and they change form less), there's no การันต์ (◌์), and the final consonants are normalized to the sound it makes. Lao and Thai are asymmetrically intelligible where Lao people understand Thai but not the other way around. That said, the Northeastern Thai dialect, อีสาน, is almost identical with small dialectal differences. Grammatically they are the same so anything you learn in one will almost certainly transfer to the other with just a different vocabulary set for common words (to do, to work, I, you, man, woman, etc.).
It's so great to see people learning Thai! For both you and parent, if you haven't found this already, this website does a good job of giving accurate English definitions for Thai words, along with sample sentences from Thai sources: http://thai-language.com/id/133751 (this is the entry for 'ลำบาก') There's also a mobile app, which is even easier to use than the site.
Good luck and สู้ๆ นะ!
Good luck and สู้ๆ นะ!
That site really IS pretty good. I've always appreciated studying a dialectal difference before traveling to different regions in Thailand -- in my experience the locals will treat you better if you can not only speak Bangkok Thai, but put in the effort to learn some of their vocabulary. Getting non-tourist treatment is exactly what I'm looking for when trying to learn about a new area.
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It's funny, because they advertise blender as a use-case for this laptop but I bought a laptop with a numpad exclusively for use in blender.
every linux vendor advertises blender because it's one of the only good serious creative apps available on the platform
Weird - not just the lack of a numpad, but also the lack of dedicated graphics wouldn't make me think of Blender as a prime use-case for this.
Blender works fine on a powerful laptop. The only problem is that if you want to do cycles renderings (the raytraced, "realistic" rendering mode) you would have to run it essentially overnight, or longer to render your scene.
Model building, texturing, animation, basically everything else blender does should work just fine
How many laptopts use the high powered range of Ryzen cpus?
e.g. 4xxxH like this laptop
Most laptopts I see use the 15W versions, very rare to find anything competitive with Macbook.
e.g. 4xxxH like this laptop
Most laptopts I see use the 15W versions, very rare to find anything competitive with Macbook.
There are only a handful of AMD options worth mentioning and availability for models is very regional. Those without a dGPU are the Lenovo S540-13ARE (4800U but has dual-fan/dual-heatpipe cooling and runs at a sustained 38W), these TongFang PF4/PF5 models (a variety of OEMs like the Slimbook, Tuxedo), the 2020 Redmibooks, and the just announced Honor Magicbook Pro.
The rest are mostly gaming models. The Asus G14, TongFang's GK5/GK7 (like the Eluktronics RP-15/17), HP Omen 15, and the Lenovo Legion 5 are the best of the bunch. They all have Nvidia 1660Tis/2060s.
The 4800H performs on par with the 10875H at lower temps/power usage but I think competition w/ a Macbook is going to be subjective. None have anywhere close to the fit and finish of a MBP. Most are significantly cheaper. Most will have a better port selection and better upgradability (although some also have soldered RAM). Most will have better battery life. Only a few will be more portable. Only a few support USB-C PD. Only a few have >FHD screens and if you need >100% sRGB color gamut, there's literally only one AMD option (the 4K Schenker VIA 15 Pro), and that won't be available until September at the earliest. There are plenty of 10875H+ laptop options on the Intel side. Some like the new XPS's are specifically designed to compete head-to-head w/ MBPs.
The rest are mostly gaming models. The Asus G14, TongFang's GK5/GK7 (like the Eluktronics RP-15/17), HP Omen 15, and the Lenovo Legion 5 are the best of the bunch. They all have Nvidia 1660Tis/2060s.
The 4800H performs on par with the 10875H at lower temps/power usage but I think competition w/ a Macbook is going to be subjective. None have anywhere close to the fit and finish of a MBP. Most are significantly cheaper. Most will have a better port selection and better upgradability (although some also have soldered RAM). Most will have better battery life. Only a few will be more portable. Only a few support USB-C PD. Only a few have >FHD screens and if you need >100% sRGB color gamut, there's literally only one AMD option (the 4K Schenker VIA 15 Pro), and that won't be available until September at the earliest. There are plenty of 10875H+ laptop options on the Intel side. Some like the new XPS's are specifically designed to compete head-to-head w/ MBPs.
For a while it was only the ROG Zephyrus. I think there have been others in Linus or Dave2Ds videos. A bunch were due to come up earlier this year but it all got pushed back.
All 15" or larger laptops should use H-class processors; there are just very few Ryzen 15" out so far.
Sagers have a few that use the desktop versions. https://www.sagernotebook.com/15-Inch-to-16-Inch-Gaming-Lapt...
When I saw 'Slimbook' I wished for a small pocketable Linux netbook even though I knew Ryzen 4000's thermal profile wouldn't suit such a design.
I would really like AMD to release CPUs which can compete with intel's core M3, which can be used in SBCs or pocketable netbooks like these[1][2]. I feel there is a need gap in this space for a reputed manufacturer or a trusted enthusiast brand to get in.
Why would you want a pocketable Linux pc? one may ask; I'm tired of this always tracking smartphone cellular-apps cluster-X mess. My phone-call usage lifestyle is anyways on-demand(little to no incoming calls), so why not just use a USB GSM module on a pocket Linux pc when needed.
P.S. I'm aware of upcoming pure Linux smartphones, some with cellular-kill switch, I'm a vocal support of these platforms, but it's not available in my country and as I understand they are not ready for a daily driver.
[1]https://www.1netbook.com/product/
[2]https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket2
I would really like AMD to release CPUs which can compete with intel's core M3, which can be used in SBCs or pocketable netbooks like these[1][2]. I feel there is a need gap in this space for a reputed manufacturer or a trusted enthusiast brand to get in.
Why would you want a pocketable Linux pc? one may ask; I'm tired of this always tracking smartphone cellular-apps cluster-X mess. My phone-call usage lifestyle is anyways on-demand(little to no incoming calls), so why not just use a USB GSM module on a pocket Linux pc when needed.
P.S. I'm aware of upcoming pure Linux smartphones, some with cellular-kill switch, I'm a vocal support of these platforms, but it's not available in my country and as I understand they are not ready for a daily driver.
[1]https://www.1netbook.com/product/
[2]https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket2
> Why would you want a pocketable Linux pc? one may ask; I'm tired of this always tracking smartphone cellular-apps cluster-X mess. My phone-call usage lifestyle is anyways on-demand(little to no incoming calls), so why not just use a USB GSM module on a pocket Linux pc when needed.
You could probably run Linux on one of the GPD Win devices. (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/gpdwin/comments/glpokv/gpd_win_max_...)
Also, as an aside: rather than using a GSM module with a real SIM card that you'd have to pay monthly for, you could just subscribe to a VoIP service (I use https://voip.ms) and then connect to it with a softphone app to place and receive calls.
I pay $1/mo for a number, and $0.005/min for calling, and that's it. I have softphone apps for my PC, phone, and tablets, that are all connected to its same number, so I can answer calls "directly" through any of them, without one device having to route through another. (Also, as a side-benefit, I've set it up with has voicemail-to-MP3s-in-my-email, like Google Voice does. And configured it so that if people outside my whitelist call, they go directly to voicemail.)
Works especially well when combined with a phone that you set up as a "tablet" with a data-only plan. (This plan costs me $10/mo, in Canada, which is quite a feat if you know the Canadian cellular ISP market.)
Oh, and I've also written a SMS<->Slack bridge bot (https://github.com/tsutsu/smsforwarder), that I run as a Heroku free-tier app wired with webhooks to voip.ms's SMS API. SMSes to my VoIP number pop up in a Slack channel named after the peer's number in a special private Slack team I created; and messages I write into that channel are sent back to the peer number as SMSes. So all the same devices that have the softphone app, have Slack, and so can also interact with my SMSes in a shared manner as well.
You could probably run Linux on one of the GPD Win devices. (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/gpdwin/comments/glpokv/gpd_win_max_...)
Also, as an aside: rather than using a GSM module with a real SIM card that you'd have to pay monthly for, you could just subscribe to a VoIP service (I use https://voip.ms) and then connect to it with a softphone app to place and receive calls.
I pay $1/mo for a number, and $0.005/min for calling, and that's it. I have softphone apps for my PC, phone, and tablets, that are all connected to its same number, so I can answer calls "directly" through any of them, without one device having to route through another. (Also, as a side-benefit, I've set it up with has voicemail-to-MP3s-in-my-email, like Google Voice does. And configured it so that if people outside my whitelist call, they go directly to voicemail.)
Works especially well when combined with a phone that you set up as a "tablet" with a data-only plan. (This plan costs me $10/mo, in Canada, which is quite a feat if you know the Canadian cellular ISP market.)
Oh, and I've also written a SMS<->Slack bridge bot (https://github.com/tsutsu/smsforwarder), that I run as a Heroku free-tier app wired with webhooks to voip.ms's SMS API. SMSes to my VoIP number pop up in a Slack channel named after the peer's number in a special private Slack team I created; and messages I write into that channel are sent back to the peer number as SMSes. So all the same devices that have the softphone app, have Slack, and so can also interact with my SMSes in a shared manner as well.
>You could probably run Linux on one of the GPD Win devices.
I had mentioned it in my parent comment. I cannot get these devices inside my country for the same reason I cannot get a PinePhone due to China-India tensions; even before the blockade I have heard horror stories from people who imported computers from Aliexpress in India having to pay 2-3x the price as import taxes!
Furthermore, I would like a brand which is available to greater Linux audience in western countries, so that it's been vetted properly.
>Also, as an aside: rather than using a GSM module with a real SIM card that you'd have to pay monthly for, you could just subscribe to a VoIP service
I do use VoIP services, but without a GSM module how do you connect to the Internet(4G/LTE) on the move in a PC? i.e. considering you are not carrying a smartphone. Places where WiFi hotspots are available are not an issue(If you don't consider them to be a security risk or being stationery), but say you have to book a Uber on the move then a GSM Module for Internet + Anbox for Uber app seems necessary.
smsforwarder looks cool, I will check it out. Thank you.
I had mentioned it in my parent comment. I cannot get these devices inside my country for the same reason I cannot get a PinePhone due to China-India tensions; even before the blockade I have heard horror stories from people who imported computers from Aliexpress in India having to pay 2-3x the price as import taxes!
Furthermore, I would like a brand which is available to greater Linux audience in western countries, so that it's been vetted properly.
>Also, as an aside: rather than using a GSM module with a real SIM card that you'd have to pay monthly for, you could just subscribe to a VoIP service
I do use VoIP services, but without a GSM module how do you connect to the Internet(4G/LTE) on the move in a PC? i.e. considering you are not carrying a smartphone. Places where WiFi hotspots are available are not an issue(If you don't consider them to be a security risk or being stationery), but say you have to book a Uber on the move then a GSM Module for Internet + Anbox for Uber app seems necessary.
smsforwarder looks cool, I will check it out. Thank you.
Sidenote -
>without a GSM module how do you connect to the Internet(4G/LTE)
This is also a reason why we need non-cellular mobile Internet[1], like city wide WiFi hotspots.
[1]https://needgap.com/problems/51-non-cellular-network-mobile-...
>without a GSM module how do you connect to the Internet(4G/LTE)
This is also a reason why we need non-cellular mobile Internet[1], like city wide WiFi hotspots.
[1]https://needgap.com/problems/51-non-cellular-network-mobile-...
WiMAX existed and died
I would really love to know your complete setup for this. I’m impressed and would like to attempt something like that!
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That form factor is interesting, I had seen another like this before from somebody who had been travelling. Also interesting is that there seems to be demand for it in some countries and not others.
I think that's because, even hardcore smartphone with physical keyboard users have accustomed to touch screen, it's just few outliers and security conscious people are using the setup being discussed here.
That said, I see a resurgence of smartphones with physical keyboards and once people get used to them, they may seek better screen/keyboard/performance with a pocketable laptop but the GSM integration is a major limiter for many. It's not like people are going to throw away their smartphones for a portable computer anytime soon.
That said, I see a resurgence of smartphones with physical keyboards and once people get used to them, they may seek better screen/keyboard/performance with a pocketable laptop but the GSM integration is a major limiter for many. It's not like people are going to throw away their smartphones for a portable computer anytime soon.
But the first time I saw an east asian laptop in this form factor was before modern smartphones took off. It was circa 2008 and it ran Vista. It might have been a few years old.
I have long been impressed at the small laptop form factors available in those countries. There are many fewer options for wide sale in the US for example. It would seem to me like further west there is less demand for something small.
I have long been impressed at the small laptop form factors available in those countries. There are many fewer options for wide sale in the US for example. It would seem to me like further west there is less demand for something small.
For those interested in this or the Tuxedo Pulse 15 or Schenker VIA 15 Pro (all based off of the same barebones TongFang PF5NU1G), I have one and I’ve been doing a pretty thorough review here: https://www.notion.so/lhl/Mechrevo-Code-01-TongFang-PF5NU1G-...
How did you manage to break the page-up/page-down/home/end keys on that page?
Notion pages are so bad in those ways. Space/Shift+Space don’t work either, arrows do very much the wrong thing, they wrap all the text blocks with contenteditable (why!? it’s not even like I can edit the page!) which mangles at least Firefox’s link handling (it makes it not show the href in the status bar on hover) and Tab-based keyboard focus (it makes each block focusable, despite that being useless, and stops inline links from being focusable), …
It’s just awful. An accessibility disaster, and I don’t say such things lightly (normally I might just say it has serious problems).
If I come across much more usage of Notion, I’ll need to craft a user script to unbreak as much as I can. document.querySelectorAll('[contenteditable]').forEach(e => e.contentEditable = false) is a good start, fixing the focus issues. Unfortunately all their event handlers are on the root element, so you can’t just clobber them with document.body.outerHTML = document.body.outerHTML or similar but must figure out some other way of deregistering or breaking their event handlers.
It’s just awful. An accessibility disaster, and I don’t say such things lightly (normally I might just say it has serious problems).
If I come across much more usage of Notion, I’ll need to craft a user script to unbreak as much as I can. document.querySelectorAll('[contenteditable]').forEach(e => e.contentEditable = false) is a good start, fixing the focus issues. Unfortunately all their event handlers are on the root element, so you can’t just clobber them with document.body.outerHTML = document.body.outerHTML or similar but must figure out some other way of deregistering or breaking their event handlers.
It'd be cool if browsers had some way to display text and handle things like scrolling and linking to other pages. Really a big oversight when they were designing HTML. Too bad though, I guess every site will have to implement all of that from scratch in JS.
I think the problem here isn’t that, so much as that Notion is using their editing interface even when you’re clearly only reading the document and can’t edit it, and kinda whitewashing it a bit so that it’s not actually editable (with event handlers to stop the normal editing things working, turning the caret colour transparent, &c.), and that seems to mess things up even further. (I don’t use Notion, but I presume their editing interface works better when it’s not read-only, because otherwise no one would be willing to use it.) Of course what they should have done is just produced the HTML (preferably server-side, but even client-side would be tolerable) and left it alone, no contenteditable, event handlers.
Thanks for the explanation!
From an engineering perspective, it's a crappy, rendered-from-js-exclusively page.
(That has nothing to do with the detailed, and very nice content.)
(That has nothing to do with the detailed, and very nice content.)
And Eluktronics to the best of my knowledge? The new 15" https://www.eluktronics.com/RP-15/ and 17" https://www.eluktronics.com/RP-17/
The Eluktronics is a GK5/GK7 TongFang - same ODM but a totally different chassis (for use w/ gaming dGPUs). Eluktronics mentioned a while back they might be selling their own version of the PF5 but I haven't heard an update recently.
Thank you!
Given we have the technology, I don't think it's wise to advertise this machine as ready for serious digital painting and video editing with only 100% sRGB gamut. Color accuracy can be recalibrated, but the gamut can't be expanded. Video editing really should be done in the wider gamut like 94-100% DCI-P3. The same thing applies to photo editing and digital painting in DCI-P3 or Adobe RGB. Many high-end phones have these specs and many monitor as well as the HDR screens on TV and projectors. However, all of the laptop with panels in the appropriate ranges for digital content creation (XPS series, ZenBook Pro Duo, ConceptD, etc.) are all running Intel chips -- so I'm still waiting.
Yes, and it boggles my mind that Apple is still the one building laptops with high resolutions.
The highest-end Zephyrus G14 comes with a high-res panel; windows defaults to 2x zoom. I've been very happy with it, not least since - well, thanks to the Vega chiplet there's no lag.
It also has an Nvidia for those times when you really need horsepower, but so far I've only needed it for ML.
It also has an Nvidia for those times when you really need horsepower, but so far I've only needed it for ML.
I took a hard look at this laptop particularly with the 1440p resolution, but 101.2% sRGB, 71.7% DCI-P3 and 69.7% Adobe RGB still isn't in the color gamut ranges I'm considering acceptable for content creation. The truth is that ASUS are more focused on high refresh rates for gamers than they are content creation. When 60Hz was the norm a few years ago, a lot of gaming laptops offered wide color gamuts and high pixel density to stand out even though these don't help gaming.
I'm curious actually. The majority of users don't have a calibrated or wide-gamut screen, so how much does the color gamut really matter?
I have one laptop with an OLED panel that's (IIRC) 105% Adobe-RGB, and it's sufficiently nice that I'd like that everywhere if I could, but it isn't enough to rule out the G14 for me. Perhaps it's a good thing that I'm not into photo editing, as a rule.
I have one laptop with an OLED panel that's (IIRC) 105% Adobe-RGB, and it's sufficiently nice that I'd like that everywhere if I could, but it isn't enough to rule out the G14 for me. Perhaps it's a good thing that I'm not into photo editing, as a rule.
My x1 carbon isn't too bad. Sure it's not whatever retina is but iirc it's 1440p.
Always and forever with any linux laptop, the major question is: how is the trackpad?
The trackpad is decent. Roughly centered under the home keys. Plastic but pretty smooth (about 80% the size and 80% the smoothness of a late model MBP13). It's a physical clickpad that feels fine, and recognizes left, middle and right clicks. I haven't had a problem using the libinput defaults - gestures work, default sensitivity and acceleration is sane (although of course, fully adjustable).
I was switched from a 2015 macbook pro to a Ryzen APU laptop for 2 weeks, the trackpad experience on my machine was better than my expection (i've used a laptop few years ago and cannot stand it), imo, it's some level between win10 precision touchpad and macbook, more close to win10.
FHD on a 13 inch or larger just doesn't cut it these days. QHD is the minimum for people whose jobs are computers, imo.
Here's a ppi calculator https://www.sven.de/dpi/ to satify various hypotheticals.
Any 4K monitor 26" or greater is the same dpi as FHD at 13"
Various examples here https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=4k+monitor
A 24" 4K monitor is only 8% better in fact. I would venture to guess it would be basically indistinguishable to the naked eye.
QHD at 13" is 226 ppi is that really a reasonable minimum?
Any 4K monitor 26" or greater is the same dpi as FHD at 13"
Various examples here https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=4k+monitor
A 24" 4K monitor is only 8% better in fact. I would venture to guess it would be basically indistinguishable to the naked eye.
QHD at 13" is 226 ppi is that really a reasonable minimum?
It's less about DPI than about raw pixel count. At 1080p, you simply lose too much usable screen space to menus, toolbars, task bars, and all the dumb shit that websites set "position: fixed" on. 2560x1440 (or better yet, 2560x1600) with appropriate magnification gives you a lot more flexibility in how you use screen space, instead of more or less forcing you to work with only one maximized/fullscreen window at a time.
I use a 13" MBP with no UI magnification, but most web pages scaled to around 200%. That keeps the UI nice and compact and leaves a lot of screen space for actual content (about 2170x1523 with my current browser layout). I do occasionally set it to a scaled resolution when someone else has to watch/use the machine as well.
I use a 13" MBP with no UI magnification, but most web pages scaled to around 200%. That keeps the UI nice and compact and leaves a lot of screen space for actual content (about 2170x1523 with my current browser layout). I do occasionally set it to a scaled resolution when someone else has to watch/use the machine as well.
>or better yet, 2560x1600
I couldn't agree more, I was given 16:10 monitors for my current job and I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to 16:9 if I can avoid it. Next laptop is a 13" MBP for sure too.
I couldn't agree more, I was given 16:10 monitors for my current job and I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to 16:9 if I can avoid it. Next laptop is a 13" MBP for sure too.
I don't really get why anyone would use laptop screen or keyboard unless they're traveling. I'm using my laptop purely as a portable computer between home and office desks. I would be quite fine with a laptop without screen or keyboard, at least until someone wants me to present in a live meeting.
I did that for a while, with a Mac Mini.
It was lighter and more powerful than the Macbook Air I've been using the last few years.
(In the end there were times when I wanted an actual laptop with me, i.e. non-work trips away)
It was lighter and more powerful than the Macbook Air I've been using the last few years.
(In the end there were times when I wanted an actual laptop with me, i.e. non-work trips away)
Fully agreed, this year is 2020 guys at least provide QHD for laptops and PCs, and have mercy for your eyes.
The only main problem with QHD is that once you've got used to it, it is really hard to go back to anything less.
The only main problem with QHD is that once you've got used to it, it is really hard to go back to anything less.
FHD is not an issue, but there's no mention of whether it's TN or IPS. If it's TN, then it's sad.
what does it change really? If you need more space there's no issue to connect to a real big screen to do more work.
It makes it really uncomfortable to use when you're not connected to a larger screen. If I'm buying a laptop, I want a decent screen for when I'm not sitting at my desk. If I didn't care about that, I wouldn't be buying a laptop in the first place.
So does that mean you did not work on any laptop before 2015 or so when very high resolution screens were basically unavailable?
> Paint like a maestro with Krita
That pretty much sums up the care and thoughtfulness of the Linux desktop ecosystem.
That pretty much sums up the care and thoughtfulness of the Linux desktop ecosystem.
What do you mean?
The Maestro is a musician, not a painter.
> A maestro is an artistic master: someone who is skilled enough to be considered an artistic genius.
> Taking one music class or art class can teach you a lot, but it won't make you a maestro. Maestro (which comes from Italian) is reserved for people with an enormous amount of skill and talent. This word can apply to any type of artist — and sometimes, to people with impressive skills in other areas — but it's most commonly applied to musicians. Master composers, pianists, cellists, guitarists, and conductors are often called maestros.
> Taking one music class or art class can teach you a lot, but it won't make you a maestro. Maestro (which comes from Italian) is reserved for people with an enormous amount of skill and talent. This word can apply to any type of artist — and sometimes, to people with impressive skills in other areas — but it's most commonly applied to musicians. Master composers, pianists, cellists, guitarists, and conductors are often called maestros.
El maestro es un experto en su campo.
Pablo Picasso fue un maestro.
Pablo Picasso fue un maestro.
3200Hz memory??
Wait. You're right. I did a double-take then doubted myself.
I can't find anything historical that used 3.2kHz memory access speeds, but I'm pretty sure there was something out there... from the 1960s.
I can't find anything historical that used 3.2kHz memory access speeds, but I'm pretty sure there was something out there... from the 1960s.
That speed is slower than magnetic memory; it could be delay-line memory, which would be even earlier.
I'm not sure what your question is. It's shared with the integrated GPU, so faster is better even if it means that it costs a bit battery life.
Memory speed is usually in MHz, not Hz. They're just making fun of the mistake.
This is my favorite form factor for 15" notebooks. Center keyboard and touch pad and lots of ports. My only reservation is it's not 4K and my eyes really like the font smoothness now that I'm getting older.
Good star for having full size arrow keys!
Does anyone know why Ryzen 4000 laptops don't come with screen resolutions higher than FHD?
Does it have a replaceable battery?
Why is it so hard to produce a 13" Notebook with a Ryzen 4800U, 32 GB Ram (or better just two Sockets) and two 4k/60hz Outputs?
Make one HDMI 2.0 and the other Displayport over Type-C and I'm fine.
I'd love to see a USB 3 Type-A Port aswell but that seems like too much to ask nowadays.
Make one HDMI 2.0 and the other Displayport over Type-C and I'm fine.
I'd love to see a USB 3 Type-A Port aswell but that seems like too much to ask nowadays.
Lenovo X13 with Ryzen 4750U + 32 GB RAM + docking station is quite similar.
> You can get 32GB of RAM in a 15" form factor, just not in 13".
> This is due to the well known engineering limitation that links LCD size to the density of RAM modules that can be supported by a motherboard.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21445497
I thought this comment 8 months back was correct. I dont know the limitation nor could find something related.
> This is due to the well known engineering limitation that links LCD size to the density of RAM modules that can be supported by a motherboard.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21445497
I thought this comment 8 months back was correct. I dont know the limitation nor could find something related.
This is simply not true. My current Notebook is a 32GB Ram equipped 13" Toshiba Portegé X-30-D, comes in at nearly 1KG and is available with a quad-core i7-8550U.
I'd just like a Ryzen 4800U version of my current machine, even if it means sacrificing Thunderbolt 3.
I think i'll have to wait for 5800U to come around and have USB4 though to see that happen. :(
I'd just like a Ryzen 4800U version of my current machine, even if it means sacrificing Thunderbolt 3.
I think i'll have to wait for 5800U to come around and have USB4 though to see that happen. :(
Here is a link to a block diagram to show what's possible on Renoir Chipsets:
https://www.notebookcheck.com/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/...
https://www.notebookcheck.com/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/...
> I thought this comment 8 months back was correct. I dont know the limitation nor could find something related.
>> Semi- >> Autonomous >> Remote >> Cache >> Assignment >> Synchronization >> Monitoring
Unfortunately looks like you got trolled. There's definitely no such engineering limitation. It's primarily, I think, a marketing limitation; if you want a beefier machine, they want to push you towards overall higher end equipment.
>> Semi- >> Autonomous >> Remote >> Cache >> Assignment >> Synchronization >> Monitoring
Unfortunately looks like you got trolled. There's definitely no such engineering limitation. It's primarily, I think, a marketing limitation; if you want a beefier machine, they want to push you towards overall higher end equipment.
Looks like it. I read that comment and it stuck in my head.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/Thi...
click Customize, then choose Ryzen 7, then choose 32GB memory.
click Customize, then choose Ryzen 7, then choose 32GB memory.
That attempts to load a customize page, then immediately 404s. This is one of those moments where I think, "JavaScript was such a poor choice on this page".
Maybe due to space, or could be power constraints. According to little Google Search, DDR4 DRAM consume roughly 1.5W per 4GB(not per module) so 32GB = 12W by itself at least at peak.
DDR4 SODIMM 32GB modules are about $150 right now so you can pop one in if you want and if your machine supports it.
DDR4 SODIMM 32GB modules are about $150 right now so you can pop one in if you want and if your machine supports it.
Looks like it's kicking ass in the benchmarks too: https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-benchmarks-AMD-Ryzen-400...
I kinda feel if you really need a lot of resources you can use a cloud server or local physical box. There are lots of workstation laptops spec'd like you want but they're big, heavy and expensive.
Have people at AMD solved the issue(s) with Ryzen-equipped Linux laptops freezing randomly?
I've ASUS TUF A15 laptop (Ryzen 4800H with GeForce 2060) with Linux and haven't experienced a freeze yet. I own that laptop for 2 months now, so it's not impossible I won't experience it, however so far - no freezes. There are some annoyances with it, but overall I'm more than happy with 4800H and what you get for that kind of money.
I really appreciate the 91Wh battery on the 15 inch. I was looking at buying a Dell XPS 15 but they shrunk the battery size this year.
Sigh.
The main points I look at a laptop by are keyboard, trackpoint, then display quality, then the rest. I couldn't care less about the Ryzen part; the keyboard looks abysmal.
The main points I look at a laptop by are keyboard, trackpoint, then display quality, then the rest. I couldn't care less about the Ryzen part; the keyboard looks abysmal.
The keyboard is critically important for me as well, but you should care about the Ryzen.
Power usage is dramatically lower than the equivalent Intel chip, to the degree the latter exists. In addition to the CPU just being much faster overall, these also come with a Vega iGPU with half a gigabyte of dedicated memory.
It won't play Half-Life 4, but I've always noticed Intel chips being laggy and hot if hooked up to a screen with any sort of resolution, or if trying to run e.g. Factorio. Neither of those are a problem here.
Power usage is dramatically lower than the equivalent Intel chip, to the degree the latter exists. In addition to the CPU just being much faster overall, these also come with a Vega iGPU with half a gigabyte of dedicated memory.
It won't play Half-Life 4, but I've always noticed Intel chips being laggy and hot if hooked up to a screen with any sort of resolution, or if trying to run e.g. Factorio. Neither of those are a problem here.
I agree. What made me use macbook for years is their touchpad.
Do you have recommandation of linux compatible laptop with good keyboard and touchpad ?
Do you have recommandation of linux compatible laptop with good keyboard and touchpad ?
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Lenovo ThinkPads. The T495 looks nice: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T495-Review-bu...
Got one, can confirm. The older Ryzen blows everything else away, but you need Fedora. Debian sucks.
Nice ! I would appreciate the category Music Making (=DAW) amongst the four on the top.
Musicians struggle with Apple’s prices and monopoly.
I have a slimbook pro (the model before the silver keyboard) and sadly I am very unhappy with it, I got a fairly maxed out version and it's fans are always on full blast and I have found no way to keep the power management under control except throttling the CPU - so it is constantly overheated, suspend is not working properly and the chassis is not strong enough so the fans stall unless you have it on a flat surface. Note that I have some lenovo computer from work which is configured in the exact same way and there are no overheating or suspend issues.
I also got a pinebook pro and I managed to use it a sum total of 12 times (and only on flat surfaces with the power plugged in because otherwise the screen would flicker like a strobe light) before the screen completely gave up and now it's an expensive paperweight.
Still I will keep buying these things.. eventually someone will figure out how to make reliable laptops that align with the ethos of free software. I've researched system76, puri.sm and also lately the way too expensive MNT reform, but really the only laptop people seem to be happy with is thinkpad x220 / x230 which came out 12 years ago.... This makes me sad.
I would pay a lot for a super sturdy laptop which works (and aligns with the free software ethos).
I also got a pinebook pro and I managed to use it a sum total of 12 times (and only on flat surfaces with the power plugged in because otherwise the screen would flicker like a strobe light) before the screen completely gave up and now it's an expensive paperweight.
Still I will keep buying these things.. eventually someone will figure out how to make reliable laptops that align with the ethos of free software. I've researched system76, puri.sm and also lately the way too expensive MNT reform, but really the only laptop people seem to be happy with is thinkpad x220 / x230 which came out 12 years ago.... This makes me sad.
I would pay a lot for a super sturdy laptop which works (and aligns with the free software ethos).
I think the T series is great. I have a T460 (bought off ebay for $140). I had an extra SSD, some old ram sticks I stuck in there and it works great. The dock off of Amazon cost me approximately 20 bucks. The CPU maxes and never goes above 55 C (idles 37-40) and runs almost all my dev tasks as needed. The laptop is approximately the size of my 13" 2015 Macbook Pro (my wife currently has taken that one). I have two headless machines with GPUs if I want to game (via Parsec or Steam streaming) or use GPU for Python notebooks etc.
I've run Fedora and a custom Debian setup in the past (and currently am using Void Linux). Things mostly work with no real issues.
I think perhaps the mistake is paying premium with new and shiny things that haven't stood the test of time is the problem here? If you buy cheap (something that is a known quantity also), you're less likely to feel the b urn of walking away from the shiny / expensive new thing, right?
Note: I also have the X230 (bought off craigslist for ~$100, 2 years ago) and have given that to my dad who has used it happily for years now.
I've run Fedora and a custom Debian setup in the past (and currently am using Void Linux). Things mostly work with no real issues.
I think perhaps the mistake is paying premium with new and shiny things that haven't stood the test of time is the problem here? If you buy cheap (something that is a known quantity also), you're less likely to feel the b urn of walking away from the shiny / expensive new thing, right?
Note: I also have the X230 (bought off craigslist for ~$100, 2 years ago) and have given that to my dad who has used it happily for years now.
A group (person) going by "51nb" out of Shenzhen, PRC, produces limited runs of motherboards that fit old ThinkPad chassis and accept modern processors. They also have access to NOS chassis and occasionally offer models such as the "X210," a completely unofficial X201 with a FHD IPS and current gen i7.
That is really interesting. I have an ancient T61p from I think 2008 running Fedora, which works fine for basic stuff. I would love to upgrade it because it's built like the proverbial brick shithouse and has a great keyboard and a 4:3 display (which would also need to be updated). But it's probably impossible without more or less completely rebuilding the laptop.
Interesting! Do you mind sharing some URLs?
Seems about right. They're kind of elusive, since they probably have some connection to the Lenovo line in the PRC but are operating very unofficially. Links to offerings show up on Thinkpad forums and the Thinkpad sub-reddit, perhaps also on the Face Book.
There needn't be much of a connection to lenovo. It just uses a thinkpad chassis and the keyboard. It has its own EC which works with the thinkpad keyboard. It doesn't use the lenovo EC.
My work laptop is a T460S, and it has the worst build quality/reliability I've seen in the past 5 years. The case is definitely light duty, to the point where one of the batteries swelling deformed it. The battery swelling also causes intermittent disconnection of that battery and of the screen, which is frustrating on a laptop.
Sounds pretty annoying/awful. The S model is a little smaller/thinner and I think the T460 I have barely makes the cut with the chassis (it has a lot more plastic than I remember the T series having).
I think in most cases it's pretty easy to pry these things apart and swap the batteries out.
I think in most cases it's pretty easy to pry these things apart and swap the batteries out.
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I’ve had a T480 since summer 2018. It is the worst computer I have ever owned, less reliable and poorer build quality than a $250 Acer netbook from 2010. I had to install Windows because of an error to update one of several firmware issues that have arisen with this machine — this one relating to Thunderbolt without which it could not provide external output over any port but HDMI, and there only at 30 Hz for 4K. And I think the throttling issue is still not fixed. The ports on the board are extremely flimsy and I’m going to have to send my machine in to fix them a second time. At the very least they have massive issues in developing and deploying quality firmware.
Posts like this make me anxious to step out of the MacBook Pro bubble even though I want to. Aside from the butterfly keyboard saga those devices have generally been built very well, whereas I read nothing but complaints about the Dell XPS / Lenovo T4XX / HP Spectre du jour. Ranges from flimsy build quality to poor screens to coil whine to rapidly degrading batteries.
In terms of build quality, Dell's Latitude business notebooks have been great for a very long time. I have one from 6-7 years ago that's still running strong.
I've also been really happy with my Razer Blade which I've used alongside a Macbook Pro for the last ~3 years.
I've also been really happy with my Razer Blade which I've used alongside a Macbook Pro for the last ~3 years.
I can’t say enough good things about dell latitude. It’s to the point that they are all I use. You can get a great laptop for ~400 on eBay and when stuff breaks or wears out you can actually fix it yourself using spare parts that are easy to find
My issue with T480 is that a few tabs broke off when I opened the chasis to upgrade the RAM. And now the palmrest is cracked in two places. And the worst thing is that to replace the palm rest, I would have to literally unassemble the whole laptop.
That's really sad an unfortunate. My experiences have been great but have been slightly older machines that stood the test of time.
I wish I could say this about my T460p. It’s mobo died right after the warranty expired.
A friend of mine runs an IT help desk team that manages a fleet of T series laptops and they have a lot of problems. You got a good one. It’s so unfortunate that these have a lot of problems, they are almost perfect.
A friend of mine runs an IT help desk team that manages a fleet of T series laptops and they have a lot of problems. You got a good one. It’s so unfortunate that these have a lot of problems, they are almost perfect.
It's nice that laptops are in a spot where you could get a nice one for $150. This year because of Covid, those prices have doubled because of the increase in demand for used laptops.
> I have a slimbook pro (the model before the silver keyboard) and sadly I am very unhappy with it, I got a fairly maxed out version and it's fans are always on full blast and I have found no way to keep the power management under control except throttling the CPU - so it is constantly overheated, suspend is not working properly and the chassis is not strong enough so the fans stall unless you have it on a flat surface. Note that I have some lenovo computer from work which is configured in the exact same way and there are no overheating or suspend issues.
One of the possible root causes for those symptoms might be dried up (or wrongly applied) cooling paste between the heatsinks and the CPU/GPU.
I highly recommend trying to replace the cooling paste, this may fix all your issues.
I recently did this on my 2 year old Asus laptop and it feels like I just bought a new machine. It went from unusable to I won't have to buy a new laptop for a couple more years. It cost me 10 EUR and maybe half an hour to get it done.
One of the possible root causes for those symptoms might be dried up (or wrongly applied) cooling paste between the heatsinks and the CPU/GPU.
I highly recommend trying to replace the cooling paste, this may fix all your issues.
I recently did this on my 2 year old Asus laptop and it feels like I just bought a new machine. It went from unusable to I won't have to buy a new laptop for a couple more years. It cost me 10 EUR and maybe half an hour to get it done.
I would recommend a thermal pad as an alternative to paste (I bought this: https://www.innovationcooling.com/products/ic-graphite-therm... ).
You won't ever have an issue with dry paste, and from what I can tell the CPU/GPU only runs a degree or so hotter than when using premium thermal paste.
You won't ever have an issue with dry paste, and from what I can tell the CPU/GPU only runs a degree or so hotter than when using premium thermal paste.
Interesting, I’ve always heard that thermal pads are far inferior to paste.
They are, but it's always a trade-off.
Stock paste goes for longevity and cooling, so it's kinda crummy at both.
Thermal pads go for longevity with a sacrifice to cooling.
High performance paste like arctic silver goes for cooling over longevity; but can be re-applied many times as it doesn't damage hardware.
Liquid metal like Thermal Grizzly's: conductonaught, goes for extreme cooling at the expense of hardware. (IE; it will literally eat your computer, slowly, over time).
Stock paste goes for longevity and cooling, so it's kinda crummy at both.
Thermal pads go for longevity with a sacrifice to cooling.
High performance paste like arctic silver goes for cooling over longevity; but can be re-applied many times as it doesn't damage hardware.
Liquid metal like Thermal Grizzly's: conductonaught, goes for extreme cooling at the expense of hardware. (IE; it will literally eat your computer, slowly, over time).
> They are, but it's always a trade-off.
According to a Linus techtips video on Youtube the difference is not really measurable. So I kind of tend to think that a high quality thermal pad is just simply superior in every way. The only reason I didn't try it, is because I couldn't find any in stock.
According to a Linus techtips video on Youtube the difference is not really measurable. So I kind of tend to think that a high quality thermal pad is just simply superior in every way. The only reason I didn't try it, is because I couldn't find any in stock.
LTT noted differences, but yes, they're not large:
https://youtu.be/YpphKzmDiJM?t=420
FWIW Steve Burke did an even more detailed burn down of these pads:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niAQs8dZohE
(LTT was later able to get -20C cooling with Liquid Metal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdTsra-uLBI )
https://youtu.be/YpphKzmDiJM?t=420
FWIW Steve Burke did an even more detailed burn down of these pads:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niAQs8dZohE
(LTT was later able to get -20C cooling with Liquid Metal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdTsra-uLBI )
far inferior is a pretty huge exaggeration, graphite pads are plainly good enough in the vast majority of cases, without all the annoying downsides of paste.
Off topic- but are _the_ BBoy Gravity?
I don't know, so probably not? Tell me more.
As my x220 is quite literally falling apart right now, I'm looking for a replacer. I was hoping something like this would be it. So your comment is a bit of a cold shower.
I have a x220 i7 + SSD + 16GB ram and am mostly happy with it. But for the follow up, a better CPU would be nice (rust compiler mostly), and a bigger screen. I fear the compromise on the track pointer will be unavoidable.
Anybody has some inspiration?
I have a x220 i7 + SSD + 16GB ram and am mostly happy with it. But for the follow up, a better CPU would be nice (rust compiler mostly), and a bigger screen. I fear the compromise on the track pointer will be unavoidable.
Anybody has some inspiration?
Have a look on reddit for /u/xueyao. He makes a couple of modded Thinkpads, including the "X330", which has the X220 keyboard, a 13.3" FHD screen, with plans for an 11th gen version early next year. There are mods aplenty apart from those ones. Internal USB instead of BT, a second MSATA connector, and the currently popular (and on my to-do list) USB-C charging mod.
I have a T480 I just upgraded with 32GB RAM; I highly recommend it. Not as light as the x220 and doesn't have the nice keyboard, but the price was right at ~$500. Came from a liquidator with a 512GB SSD + NVME mod already in place. Handles most things nicely; still have a desktop with a GPU for heavier rendering tasks.
I'm in a similar jam. I currently use an X201 Tablet, I refuse to move to a newer ThinkPad as the build quality really begins to suffer, and I'll be relegated to a 16:9 display.
I'm waiting for an announcement about the Raspberry Pi CM4, if they offer a model with 8GB of RAM, I'm very tempted to look into designing a carrier board that can replace my ThinkPad's motherboard. It will need an active DSI to LVDS converter to drive the display, and a small microcontroller to act as an embedded controller to read keyboard scancodes, trackpoint input and talk to the battery.
I'm waiting for an announcement about the Raspberry Pi CM4, if they offer a model with 8GB of RAM, I'm very tempted to look into designing a carrier board that can replace my ThinkPad's motherboard. It will need an active DSI to LVDS converter to drive the display, and a small microcontroller to act as an embedded controller to read keyboard scancodes, trackpoint input and talk to the battery.
latitude e7470
afaik the last dell with a track point thingy (https://xkcd.com/243/).
gen 6 i7, 32gig ram, 1tb ssd, 14" fhd. dated but capable
fan is mostly idle with linux desktop work but constantly whirling under w10.
should be affordable in used condition...
afaik the last dell with a track point thingy (https://xkcd.com/243/).
gen 6 i7, 32gig ram, 1tb ssd, 14" fhd. dated but capable
fan is mostly idle with linux desktop work but constantly whirling under w10.
should be affordable in used condition...
Custom X210 or X62.
There was a batch of Pinebook Pro computers that went out which was badly-QA'd and had issues with the display. You may have gotten one of those. I believe the issue was pretty localized, and if you get in touch with Pine64 they'll send you some replacement parts.
Disclaimer: I am a heavily biased Pinebook Pro user :)
Disclaimer: I am a heavily biased Pinebook Pro user :)
I heard something like this and sent them an email but got an automated response to make a ticket somewhere which was frustrating after spending time writing an email. Kind of figured they didn't want feedback since they seem really busy right now. Figured I'd just leave them alone it's just 200$ anyway and I may be able to use it headless some day.
Thanks for the tip, I have a x230 with Ubuntu mate (upgraded to 16gb of ram) which I'm super happy with- only complaint is the screen and so was looking with envy at that laptop just now - you snapped me back into reality
Have you considered Nitrocaster's fHD display mod?
I used a LVDS to eDP board to upgrade my dads T420 to a fHD IPS panel and its a night and day difference.
https://nitrocaster.me/store/x220-x230-fhd-mod-kit.html
This is super interesting - would you recommend to someone who has never soldered before?
Get yourself a cheap soldering iron with a fine tip, and practice making rows of tiny dots on a piece of cardboard first.
Apparently not. I'm devastated! There's a redditor in California offering to do it for people.
Sadly I'm in Australia and the postal systems are crazy right now.
Sadly I'm in Australia and the postal systems are crazy right now.
As am I, maybe this can be a lockdown skill to learn
Its quite an easy install, get yourself a narrow SMD tip and take it slowly. The only fiddly bit is soldering the sense wire onto the capacitor pad.
Thanks I might learn soldering during this lockdown
>I also got a pinebook pro and I managed to use it a sum total of 12 times (and only on flat surfaces with the power plugged in because otherwise the screen would flicker like a strobe light) before the screen completely gave up and now it's an expensive paperweight.
Was it something like a braveheart edition? Did you get in touch with them? I presume the display is easily replaceable. Community members over reddit say, Pinebook is now reliable and they have ironed out several issues but obviously it wouldn't be as powerful as other laptops being discussed here.
Was it something like a braveheart edition? Did you get in touch with them? I presume the display is easily replaceable. Community members over reddit say, Pinebook is now reliable and they have ironed out several issues but obviously it wouldn't be as powerful as other laptops being discussed here.
No I got it at the latter part of the covid drama (or you know the latter part of the first wave in Europe)
> really the only laptop people seem to be happy with is thinkpad x220 / x230 which came out 12 years ago.... This makes me sad.
I would pay for a motherboard replacement with an AMD mobile Ryzen CPU (renoir), like nb51 did with the X62
I would pay for a motherboard replacement with an AMD mobile Ryzen CPU (renoir), like nb51 did with the X62
I'm running Kubuntu on an i7 series Dell XPS. Can't recall much tweaking needed to get things working, including audio, wifi and GPU.
Every now and then the fans wind up but that is usually down to browser tab going rogue.
Every now and then the fans wind up but that is usually down to browser tab going rogue.
I run an Oryx Pro as my daily driver and am pretty happy with it -- it mostly sits on my desk though, and the fans are crazy loud, so I solved that by just... having another lighter laptop I carry around. The Oryx Pro was able to replace my old ITX-case desktop though so I'm thinking it's a win.
Thanks for your support to the cause -- I do agree with what others are saying though, seems like you can't go wrong with lenovo these days, but maybe give System76 a try with some of the cheaper models.
Thanks for your support to the cause -- I do agree with what others are saying though, seems like you can't go wrong with lenovo these days, but maybe give System76 a try with some of the cheaper models.
I have an old dell that runs linux fine. Before that I had another laptop that I installed linux on with no big issues. I've never had a laptop that wasn't useable with Linux.
small nitpick, the x220 came out in mid/late 2011 and x230 in mid/late 2012, that's not 12 years ago.
And if you rightfully say "but 9 years is bad enough".. yes, but my x230 is only a little slower than my T460p and if I ignore the mobile Ryzens I don't see how a 2020 Lenovo T would be meaningfully better/faster than my 4 year old T460p.
And if you rightfully say "but 9 years is bad enough".. yes, but my x230 is only a little slower than my T460p and if I ignore the mobile Ryzens I don't see how a 2020 Lenovo T would be meaningfully better/faster than my 4 year old T460p.
Sorry for not fact checking I just repeated what someone said to me recently as I was debating this choice.
Wanted usb-c and 1080p IPS screen - had a x270 (stolen) so now on a used t470s.
No Free bios but debian/ubuntu runs flawlessly. Go for a nvme drive and 12+gb ram and cheap - $600 with shipping and ram upgrade.
x220 died (motherboard), and have a x230 kicking around
No Free bios but debian/ubuntu runs flawlessly. Go for a nvme drive and 12+gb ram and cheap - $600 with shipping and ram upgrade.
x220 died (motherboard), and have a x230 kicking around
Excluding the crappy screen resolution, I am still happy running KDE on my x240 (i5, 8GB RAM) :).
What if shambolic failure is, uh, yeah.
It doesn't mention distro on the page, which is confusing.
I like the idea, though.
I like the idea, though.
TL;DR: Anybody know if Lenovo is locking-down NVME by PCI id, the same way they do wifi cards on their new Ryzen 4000 laptops?
I've been looking at Ryzen 4000 based laptops. I need a pointer stick / eraser stick (I hate touchpads), and Lenovo is the only choice I've seen with Ryzen 4000 and a pointer stick.
The Lenovo T14 is pretty compelling. However, I just can't stomach paying roughly 4x the market rate for NVME storage. They want $719 for a 1TB NVME drive (where I don't even know the vendor), when I can buy a 2TB drive from a vendor I trust for 1/2 of that. If I knew I could just open the thing up and replace the NVME drive, then I'd get it. But I"m afraid they've BIOS locked it to whatever OEM drive they ship.
I've been looking at Ryzen 4000 based laptops. I need a pointer stick / eraser stick (I hate touchpads), and Lenovo is the only choice I've seen with Ryzen 4000 and a pointer stick.
The Lenovo T14 is pretty compelling. However, I just can't stomach paying roughly 4x the market rate for NVME storage. They want $719 for a 1TB NVME drive (where I don't even know the vendor), when I can buy a 2TB drive from a vendor I trust for 1/2 of that. If I knew I could just open the thing up and replace the NVME drive, then I'd get it. But I"m afraid they've BIOS locked it to whatever OEM drive they ship.
I bought an amd based t14s with the base 128gb NVME drive and replaced it with a 2tb samsung 970 evo plus and it works fine. If you are planning on using linux you are likely to have a sub optimal experience unless you are okay with using a bleeding edge rolling distro like arch due to needing newer kernels for the best levels of support.
Awesome! Thank you so much! Would you mind putting up the output of lspci -vvv to pastebin or something similar and linking it here?
FWIW, my goal is to run FreeBSD-current on it.
FWIW, my goal is to run FreeBSD-current on it.
https://pastebin.com/v6BbEpbK
You can also run an additional m.2 ssd in the WWAN slot which works just fine assuming you grab the correct type. It's not the standard m.2 though. It's weird and has 2 notches instead of 1. My understanding is when it comes to this slot only specific drives will work properly. I grabbed an SN520 512gb (2242 size by the way, the standard 2282 is too big and 2232 is too small) off of ebay and I'm booting from it as we speak. https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/pc-s...
So when it comes to the standard m.2 slot my understanding is that there are no limitations, but the using the WWAN slot as an ssd slot can lead to issues unless you get the correct one.
Unfortunately I don't have any insight about running freebsd on this machine, so good luck to you there.
You can also run an additional m.2 ssd in the WWAN slot which works just fine assuming you grab the correct type. It's not the standard m.2 though. It's weird and has 2 notches instead of 1. My understanding is when it comes to this slot only specific drives will work properly. I grabbed an SN520 512gb (2242 size by the way, the standard 2282 is too big and 2232 is too small) off of ebay and I'm booting from it as we speak. https://www.westerndigital.com/products/internal-drives/pc-s...
So when it comes to the standard m.2 slot my understanding is that there are no limitations, but the using the WWAN slot as an ssd slot can lead to issues unless you get the correct one.
Unfortunately I don't have any insight about running freebsd on this machine, so good luck to you there.
I don't know about the T14 specifically but I just put a third party 2TB NVME into my T480s and had no problems, and I've not read about such a limitation on any of the forums.
I think the rationale for locking down WLAN/WWAN is adding random cards break promises around radio certifications. NVMe drives shouldn't so idk but the motivations are weaker.
FYI (if anyone in charge of the website is reading this): I get blocked off by Cloudflare in an infinite reload loop if I try to access the site via Tor (even with JS & cookies enabled).
I'm not an expert in Cloudflare products but if I'm not mistaken, there should be a setting labelled something like "Onion Services" in your configuration console that makes the experience for Tor users a lot less painful.
I'm not an expert in Cloudflare products but if I'm not mistaken, there should be a setting labelled something like "Onion Services" in your configuration console that makes the experience for Tor users a lot less painful.
This is unjustifiably a lot more expensive than the similar HP Envy 13 or Envy 15.
You can get an Envy with a Ryzen 4700U (the 8-core 15W CPU), 16 GB of RAM, and a 512 GB PCIE NVM SSD -- for less than $900.
You can get an Envy with a Ryzen 4700U (the 8-core 15W CPU), 16 GB of RAM, and a 512 GB PCIE NVM SSD -- for less than $900.
These are pretty different classes of machines. The 4800H performs 64% better at R20 (representative of rendering tasks), and 61% on Geekbench 5 (representative of general productivity). https://www.notebookcheck.net/R7-4700U-vs-R7-4800H_11683_116...
The Envy 13 is also limited to 16GB of soldered RAM while the Slimbook can be upgraded to 64GB. The 15" version has a huge battery advantage over the Envys.
It's also worth noting that the pricing listed includes a 21% VAT. The pricing is more competitive once you take that into account.
The Envy 13 is also limited to 16GB of soldered RAM while the Slimbook can be upgraded to 64GB. The 15" version has a huge battery advantage over the Envys.
It's also worth noting that the pricing listed includes a 21% VAT. The pricing is more competitive once you take that into account.
Nate Graham, coordinator of the KDE Usability & Productivity initiative, wrote a full review:
https://pointieststick.com/2020/07/23/the-superfast-ryzen-po...
https://pointieststick.com/2020/07/23/the-superfast-ryzen-po...
You love to see a slim laptop that didn't use the thinness as an excuse to ditch the ethernet port
From what I read about people running Linux on laptops I anticipate the following:
- Touchpad sucks
- Battery lasts 2 hours
- Sleep mode doesn’t work
- Touchpad sucks
- Battery lasts 2 hours
- Sleep mode doesn’t work
If this is all you have to say why comment at all. That's not remotely true, and you might be aware that there's no such thing as a "Linux laptop" per se, you can install Linux on any computer you wish.
I think that is just a story of the past... Sure touchpad sucked on laptops from 2012 and earlier (gaming laptops), and the battery got drained by the Debian 6 and sleep mode flew away on to fast rotating fans... but as I said it is just the story of the past
This is a Tongfang barebone, same as e.g. Schenker Via 15.
Why do they NEVER disclose the HDMI version? It is so important for 4k. Just maddening.