LA Mayor Shuts Off Power at Hollywood Hills House That Hosted Large Parties(npr.org)
npr.org
LA Mayor Shuts Off Power at Hollywood Hills House That Hosted Large Parties
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/08/19/904053260/los-angeles-mayor-shuts-off-power-at-hollywood-hills-house-that-hosted-large-par
85 comments
They got multiple warnings.
This is kind of like that Bruce Willis movie scene where his wife tries to say her affair with his best friend was "an accident" and he says something like "Whoops! I fell down and my dick accidentally ended up in your wife."
If you don't want your water cut off, don't invite your 200 closest friends over during a pandemic, two weeks after they announced this was a potential consequence and after the police have previously visited your house and warned you in specific. Duh.
This is kind of like that Bruce Willis movie scene where his wife tries to say her affair with his best friend was "an accident" and he says something like "Whoops! I fell down and my dick accidentally ended up in your wife."
If you don't want your water cut off, don't invite your 200 closest friends over during a pandemic, two weeks after they announced this was a potential consequence and after the police have previously visited your house and warned you in specific. Duh.
I'm just waiting for the HN response to a news article in a few years where this practice has expanded to the point that an elderly couple dies of dehydration and heat exhaustion after the city cuts off their power and water for failing to properly maintain the sidewalk out front.
This power & water cutoff thing was originally introduced in 2019 to combat unauthorized commercial cannabis farming as an alternative to criminal charges (which is not terrible because no human basic needs are being withheld in a commercial context).
Now suddenly it's being expanded to combat residential ordinance violations, which is a quantum leap in bad ideas. I'm surprised that nobody sees the problem here, especially the enlightened HN crowd. It's not like there haven't been sufficient tools to deal with property nuisances & safety violations for hundreds of years in ways that are effective against both rich and poor, and especially not tools that can lead to such terrible consequences for the poor as we slide down this slippery slope.
This power & water cutoff thing was originally introduced in 2019 to combat unauthorized commercial cannabis farming as an alternative to criminal charges (which is not terrible because no human basic needs are being withheld in a commercial context).
Now suddenly it's being expanded to combat residential ordinance violations, which is a quantum leap in bad ideas. I'm surprised that nobody sees the problem here, especially the enlightened HN crowd. It's not like there haven't been sufficient tools to deal with property nuisances & safety violations for hundreds of years in ways that are effective against both rich and poor, and especially not tools that can lead to such terrible consequences for the poor as we slide down this slippery slope.
> It's not like there haven't been sufficient tools to deal with property nuisances & safety violations for hundreds of years in ways that are effective against both rich and poor, and especially not tools that can lead to such terrible consequences for the poor as we slide down this slippery slope.
Uh, the main existing tool for property nuisances is forfeiture. While in this specific case I would enthusiastically support the use of that tool, I don't think it's a more modest or restrained response than what has been given.
It's like arguing “we've authorized use of guns for this problem for centuries, why are we taking the extreme step of bringing out a taser?”
Uh, the main existing tool for property nuisances is forfeiture. While in this specific case I would enthusiastically support the use of that tool, I don't think it's a more modest or restrained response than what has been given.
It's like arguing “we've authorized use of guns for this problem for centuries, why are we taking the extreme step of bringing out a taser?”
I've actually had a couple of law classes and worked in an environment where legal stuff drove a lot of stuff at the company.
I think this is one of those situations where you want to survive this situation well enough to have (the threat of) the sorts of problems down the road that you are worried about rather than having worse problems because so many people died in the pandemic that the fabric of society has fallen apart and some of the rich people with bunkers in New Zealand are hunkering down there while the not rich remain stranded in what is left of the US.
I think this is one of those situations where you want to survive this situation well enough to have (the threat of) the sorts of problems down the road that you are worried about rather than having worse problems because so many people died in the pandemic that the fabric of society has fallen apart and some of the rich people with bunkers in New Zealand are hunkering down there while the not rich remain stranded in what is left of the US.
I don't get it... what's the problem with using existing tools, such as bringing criminal charges against these people? That's within the law already, and people in jail can't throw house parties.
> I don't get it... what's the problem with using existing tools, such as bringing criminal charges against these people?
This is an existing tool, and it's one that the occupants were warned would be used if they continued their violations.
Criminal charges are slower, and don't do as much to stop the immediate threat without custodial arrest and pretrial confinement, either in jail, which itself is a public health issue, especially when high-risk transmission behavir is involved, or in separate isolation (which IIRC is available for public health order violations but is manpower intensive.)
This is an existing tool, and it's one that the occupants were warned would be used if they continued their violations.
Criminal charges are slower, and don't do as much to stop the immediate threat without custodial arrest and pretrial confinement, either in jail, which itself is a public health issue, especially when high-risk transmission behavir is involved, or in separate isolation (which IIRC is available for public health order violations but is manpower intensive.)
They are letting people out of prison in a lot of places who haven't committed violent/serious crimes because the prisons are a breeding ground for disease in a scenario like this, the prisons are overwhelmed, the hospitals are overwhelmed, etc.
I also see that as a vastly worse legal precedent than shutting off your water to deter disease-spreading large gatherings. That's a great way to make sure we can throw lots and lots of poor people in jail -- just as soon as the pandemic is over the our jails aren't overwhelmed as a matter of course.
I also see that as a vastly worse legal precedent than shutting off your water to deter disease-spreading large gatherings. That's a great way to make sure we can throw lots and lots of poor people in jail -- just as soon as the pandemic is over the our jails aren't overwhelmed as a matter of course.
I think you may have misunderstood. The tools of increasing fines and criminal charges (resulting in jail time or not) have existed for decades already, and are proven in the field to be effective. This is nothing new. There's also nothing stopping the courts from deferring a jail term until the pandemic has passed.
I am going to refer you to this fine comment and officially drop discussing this with you further:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24221493
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24221493
Then you fix the system, you don't shut off power.
Simple fines and even protracted legal disputes mean very little to the rich, who can largely do whatever the hell they like if they can pay for it.
Direct action against a property makes it much harder for them to continue.
Direct action against a property makes it much harder for them to continue.
Is it even legal?
Yes it is legal. Here is the motion:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/davidryucc/pages/2849/...
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/davidryucc/pages/2849/...
That doesn't mean it actual is legal. There are state and federal laws, not to mention the state and federal constitutions, that have higher precedence.
Maybe we ought to change our laws to account for the super rich who can just bypass most penalties using their wealth or connections.
The existing legal framework provides for increasing fines and even criminal charges for repeated violations, and has already been successfully used against rich and poor alike for noise, fire & safety, occupancy rules etc. There's absolutely no need for new "tools" to deal with this. Any calls for additional powers should be viewed with extreme suspicion and scepticism.
I remember listening to some podcast, it was something about inequality or etc doesn't matter.
As part of it this woman was to interview some rich guy.
He offered to do it over a dinner and picked her up in his lambo.
When they arrived there was no free space so he parked in the disabled space. When she mentioned that to him he replied.
"Don't worry its a $400 parking space"
The thing is he is not wrong.
There are myriad of stories of companies making millions cheating and when caught paying thousands in fines.
Thats not a deterrent but attractor of bad behaviour.
The fines meant to be fines - something that stings and burns - and not get out of jail free for one's who can afford it.
As part of it this woman was to interview some rich guy.
He offered to do it over a dinner and picked her up in his lambo.
When they arrived there was no free space so he parked in the disabled space. When she mentioned that to him he replied.
"Don't worry its a $400 parking space"
The thing is he is not wrong.
There are myriad of stories of companies making millions cheating and when caught paying thousands in fines.
Thats not a deterrent but attractor of bad behaviour.
The fines meant to be fines - something that stings and burns - and not get out of jail free for one's who can afford it.
This is why repeated violations of the more serious ordinances can result in criminal charges. It's not so easy to shrug off a criminal conviction, possible jail time, and a criminal record. Criminal fines don't have the same limits as civil fines. Judges can make it really hurt.
Yeah, you tell yourself that.
If someone has the power to do an end-run around the criminal justice system, they'll certainly have the power to get around a municipal utilities shutoff order.
In the worst case scenario, they could just order a few trucks of bottled water alongside the kegs, and set up a portable generator. Shouldn't cost more than 20 grand or so.
And so what has this new enforcement tool actually done against the belligerent hyper-rich? And in exchange, what danger does it present to the poor?
In the worst case scenario, they could just order a few trucks of bottled water alongside the kegs, and set up a portable generator. Shouldn't cost more than 20 grand or so.
And so what has this new enforcement tool actually done against the belligerent hyper-rich? And in exchange, what danger does it present to the poor?
I am not disagreeing with you, I just don't see this kind of legislation ever passing/being enforced.
Exactly. This is easy for them to get around.
They are trying to solve the wrong problem.
They are trying to solve the wrong problem.
For people who glaringly have too much money to even care about it is a fine really a punishment?
It is if you scale the fine based on their income.
Also, an idea: rather than handing fines and fees to the government -- which incentivizes all kinds of bad behavior, from civil forfeiture to crazy permitting laws -- you stick it in a general fund, and hand it back -- evenly distributed -- to the taxpayer as a dividend at the end of the year.
Do that for every bit of revenue that government makes outside of collecting taxes.
I'm curious where this falls down (outside of implementation difficulties).
Also, an idea: rather than handing fines and fees to the government -- which incentivizes all kinds of bad behavior, from civil forfeiture to crazy permitting laws -- you stick it in a general fund, and hand it back -- evenly distributed -- to the taxpayer as a dividend at the end of the year.
Do that for every bit of revenue that government makes outside of collecting taxes.
I'm curious where this falls down (outside of implementation difficulties).
People will start voting for laws that are applied inconsistently on outsiders or minorities in order to enrich themselves.
Imagine a town where the police always ticket passing cars for 1000 dollars per violation, except when the car belongs to a town member in good standing in which case they just give a warning.
Imagine a town where the police always ticket passing cars for 1000 dollars per violation, except when the car belongs to a town member in good standing in which case they just give a warning.
> It is if you scale the fine based on their income.
Income scaled fines are not existing legal tools.
Income scaled fines are not existing legal tools.
Hollywood hills. Would fines have worked? This might just be creative enforcement.
(To be honest I wonder if shutting off power will work... can they just get a generator or set up tiki torches?)
oh and new business idea: powerbnb
(To be honest I wonder if shutting off power will work... can they just get a generator or set up tiki torches?)
oh and new business idea: powerbnb
Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti said on Wednesday that he had authorized the city to disconnect utility service at a Hollywood Hills house after it hosted several large parties in "flagrant violation" of COVID-19 public health orders.
The announcement comes two weeks after Garcetti first warned that properties hosting "un-permitted large gatherings" could have their water and power service shut off as a consequence.
Seems completely reasonable to me. I find it bizarre that the internet has an issue with it, the same internet that talks like the Gestapo about trying to force every last person to wear a mask at gun point.
The announcement comes two weeks after Garcetti first warned that properties hosting "un-permitted large gatherings" could have their water and power service shut off as a consequence.
Seems completely reasonable to me. I find it bizarre that the internet has an issue with it, the same internet that talks like the Gestapo about trying to force every last person to wear a mask at gun point.
It’s because heat stroke and dehydration can kill during the summer.
Punishments granted for health violations shouldn’t make the situation even more dangerous. This won’t stop parties.
Punishments granted for health violations shouldn’t make the situation even more dangerous. This won’t stop parties.
Given the context, it will be more of a speed bump than fines.
I’m sure the notoriety that comes from hosting a party so epic the mayor holds a news conference about it will lead to a dramatic uptick in rule-following.
No, but it will lead to a dramatic up tick in property owners telling party hosts to take their money and get lost, which is the point.
The point is clear; whether this action will advance public health goals is not.
Well, as long as they keep taking this action consistently, it seems pretty clear that it will advance public health goals.
I think you underestimate American willingness to tell authority figures to go fuck themselves.
I don't have a better way of phrasing that.
This is, perhaps, both the best and worst part of our culture.
On the one hand, it gives you rebels that challenge the status quo. That don't take "no" or "that's impossible" for an answer.
On the other hand, it gives you a population that would slice off their own noses if the government told them that having one was mandatory.
I think our best course of action would have been to just... ask.
Across the board.
Republicans and Democrats, carnivores and vegetarians, people that understand that the toilet paper needs to go over the top of the roll and inhuman monsters bent on the destruction of all that is good in the world... all of them needed to agree that Masks Probably Couldn't Hurt And We Should Just Wear The Damn Things.
Do everybody a solid, and wear a mask. No, we won't fine you, or shoot you.
There's nothing to rebel against when people just sort of shrug and go "okay, whatever".
Also, work overtime to make the masks cool.
I think we'd have a higher rate of mask use with the Carrot and the Meh, as opposed to just the Stick.
I don't have a better way of phrasing that.
This is, perhaps, both the best and worst part of our culture.
On the one hand, it gives you rebels that challenge the status quo. That don't take "no" or "that's impossible" for an answer.
On the other hand, it gives you a population that would slice off their own noses if the government told them that having one was mandatory.
I think our best course of action would have been to just... ask.
Across the board.
Republicans and Democrats, carnivores and vegetarians, people that understand that the toilet paper needs to go over the top of the roll and inhuman monsters bent on the destruction of all that is good in the world... all of them needed to agree that Masks Probably Couldn't Hurt And We Should Just Wear The Damn Things.
Do everybody a solid, and wear a mask. No, we won't fine you, or shoot you.
There's nothing to rebel against when people just sort of shrug and go "okay, whatever".
Also, work overtime to make the masks cool.
I think we'd have a higher rate of mask use with the Carrot and the Meh, as opposed to just the Stick.
> best and worst part of our culture
I admire your ability to see the silver lining. I see it as selfishness to the point of toxicity.
I think the ship has sailed on asking people to wear masks. These people--whether they have a borderline ODD tendency to "question authority" and "stick it to the man" for the sake of "personal freedom" (read: selfish masquerading as principled), or if they just can't care about how their choices affect other people anymore because we are n months into a pandemic with no end in sight--have made their choice.
They are not willing to do the bare minimum such as wear a mask or not attend giant parties. I have to say, as far as measures to slow the spread go, these two requirements are incredibly fucking easy to abide by.
So I say shut the power to their party so it sucks, and make it harder for them to spread the virus even faster. Fines based on a percentage of income would be better.
I admire your ability to see the silver lining. I see it as selfishness to the point of toxicity.
I think the ship has sailed on asking people to wear masks. These people--whether they have a borderline ODD tendency to "question authority" and "stick it to the man" for the sake of "personal freedom" (read: selfish masquerading as principled), or if they just can't care about how their choices affect other people anymore because we are n months into a pandemic with no end in sight--have made their choice.
They are not willing to do the bare minimum such as wear a mask or not attend giant parties. I have to say, as far as measures to slow the spread go, these two requirements are incredibly fucking easy to abide by.
So I say shut the power to their party so it sucks, and make it harder for them to spread the virus even faster. Fines based on a percentage of income would be better.
The late Randy Pausch, in his Last Lecture[1] at Carnegie Mellon University, offered up... well, a lot of great advice, but the piece that jumped into my mind was: "It’s very important to know when you’re in a pissing match. And it’s very important to get out of it as quickly as possible."
This thing looks awfully like a pissing match, and it's not just with the one homeowner in Hollywood -- it's with every person that feels the same way.
I would lay good money the cardinality of that set is not a small number.
Doesn't matter whether or not it is a pissing match. It looks like one.
Were I running the state, I'd rather spend my time and energy on doing things that would actually Get People To Wear Masks, as opposed to another round of Pissing Match: San Andreas.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo
This thing looks awfully like a pissing match, and it's not just with the one homeowner in Hollywood -- it's with every person that feels the same way.
I would lay good money the cardinality of that set is not a small number.
Doesn't matter whether or not it is a pissing match. It looks like one.
Were I running the state, I'd rather spend my time and energy on doing things that would actually Get People To Wear Masks, as opposed to another round of Pissing Match: San Andreas.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo
Yup it does look like a pissing match.
Its not hard to get around shutting off the power. Its not hard to have secret parties.
People have been using illegal drugs for decades, despite the massive punishment that comes with getting caught - punishment that is far worse than illegally shutting off power.
So why would this actual work?
It's actually a little easier to notice and cut off power to a large conspicuous party than it is to notice drug deals are going down to do busts. It's not like all the dealers are screaming YEAH WE LIKE METH and dancing under a stream of cocaine with 20 other people clapping their hands while Billy does a kegstand.
And the action taken to shut down someone's power is to call the power company and tell them to do some clicky clacks on a keyboard.
So definitely an apples and oranges comparison. That said, it probably would be a pissing match ultimately as that person said.
And the action taken to shut down someone's power is to call the power company and tell them to do some clicky clacks on a keyboard.
So definitely an apples and oranges comparison. That said, it probably would be a pissing match ultimately as that person said.
[deleted]
I think you underestimate the government’s ability to mess with people’s cashflow.
If the property owner faces a financial burden, that will incentivize a change in behavior.
If the property owner faces a financial burden, that will incentivize a change in behavior.
Speaking as somebody who sees friends posting party footage on Instagram Stories, I would not be so confident. There are many places to host parties. With the mayor giving them attention, people will be afraid they are missing out.
[deleted]
For their next party trick, they'll take away your water and electricity for wrongthink or not voting for the "correct" party. Shocking that some people think this is acceptable. If freedom falls in the US, the rest of the world suffers too.
Hmm, I think cancelling parties (that have no political affiliation) is different from policing thought. I'm a free speech absolutist, but I support governments limiting non-speech freedoms for the sake of public health
> Shocking that some people think this is acceptable. If freedom falls in the US, the rest of the world suffers too.
This is incredibly melodramatic. To think that restricting a party during a global pandemic risks freedom more than, say, backing coups in Honduras is a ridiculous position.
This is incredibly melodramatic. To think that restricting a party during a global pandemic risks freedom more than, say, backing coups in Honduras is a ridiculous position.
There is a very wide gap between turning off someones electricity for routinely hosting parties against regulations during a pandemic that is killing more people per day than most wars and thought policing.
Also your comment could be made about literally any enforcement action ever taken.
Also your comment could be made about literally any enforcement action ever taken.
I don’t recall reading anything about freedom to make unbelievably stupid, selfish decisions in the US constitution.
It's mentioned about 30 times. Ctrl+F "vote"
Joke aside, I’m serious. How is throwing big parties in the middle of a pandemic a’freedom’ issue?? The house was warned many times and now they’re facing a reasonable repercussion.
Because your right to stay free from Covid, requires people to behave in a certain way (masks, social distancing) which is at odds with the right to self determination. Sure, it's stupid, but people should be allowed to make stupid decisions for themselves. Not saying I agree but I definitely see the freedom issue.
A court in Florida disagreed, finding that Americans “don’t have a constitutional right to infect others.”
Here is the full text of the decision - it’s a very interesting read on both sides of the argument:
https://cdn.theconversation.com/static_files/files/1142/5020...
Here is the full text of the decision - it’s a very interesting read on both sides of the argument:
https://cdn.theconversation.com/static_files/files/1142/5020...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
Maybe I don’t understand what self-determination means, but wearing a mask and keeping 6 ft of distance from another person, does not prevent one from participating in government.
I am waiting for people to advocate their free speech rights are being violated for not being allowed to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater.
Maybe I don’t understand what self-determination means, but wearing a mask and keeping 6 ft of distance from another person, does not prevent one from participating in government.
I am waiting for people to advocate their free speech rights are being violated for not being allowed to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater.
We also have hate laws that restrict what I can say against people. Or slander laws. I can’t just go tell lies about someone and claim free speech. Well you could but risk being sued.
[deleted]
Why people would voluntarily go to large crowded gatherings at this time is beyond me
Scroll to 1:08: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87tlULQxfR8
(this channel is like the TMZ for youtuber/tiktok)
(this channel is like the TMZ for youtuber/tiktok)
I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the ignorance and stupidity on display here. Beyond that, I simply don't understand the appeal of this kind of influencer: she has literally nothing interesting to say and what she does say she delivers in the most aggravating cartoon parody of the "valley girl" stereotype and clearly with no sense of irony. What kind of role model is this for young people? Just awful.
I'm not sure she has much appeal. As the first comment says "Most of these people Idk. I’m just watching because I’m bored".
If you're willing to expose your private life and you have access to parties of actual celebrities, then you're going to get some amount of attention by people scrolling their feeds and auto-playing YT recommendations.
If you're willing to expose your private life and you have access to parties of actual celebrities, then you're going to get some amount of attention by people scrolling their feeds and auto-playing YT recommendations.
Going to a 200 person party at this time seems unwise, but to then get shot.
Probably because they don't know anyone who had COVID personally and think the media is hyping it up. Plus the numbers are low compared to population. If you were an accountant, this would be a rounding error in the large picture. Then some areas of the country they aren't as serious about locking things down like in Tennessee, Utah, South Dakota or Wyoming. Heard a radio ad promoting road trips to Wyoming, they even mention they have freedom "ready to be free again". I guess that makes sense though if the rest of the country is locked down, other places can take advantage of it and profit. Supply and Demand. I'm curious how the results after Sturgis will be in 2 weeks, other places being closed and people from all over the country flocked there. Well they attract a bunch of people every year from all over anyways, but I figured this year be more so since less opportunities for entertainment right now.
Then our own president said some people didn't even know they had it comparing it to a cold. Then reports that some doctors have been threatened to lose their job if they don't sign off on COVID because the hospital gets extra money even if someone died from Cancer. Then another doctor thought the ventilators were doing more harm than good so if the doctors kill people with ventilators that's a extra 50 grand. Some people are worth more dead than alive. I think there's a virus just like other things but we're being played in a way to influence the election. Just like how with Obama they were scaring everyone about Swine Flu, working on a new vaccine for that too but that just kinda fizzled out. I know I'm skeptical personally and it is very concerning all the big sites are censoring this stuff. I think because the big drug companies run advertising on these sites, I know in other countries they banned advertising drugs but in the USA that's big business.
Then our own president said some people didn't even know they had it comparing it to a cold. Then reports that some doctors have been threatened to lose their job if they don't sign off on COVID because the hospital gets extra money even if someone died from Cancer. Then another doctor thought the ventilators were doing more harm than good so if the doctors kill people with ventilators that's a extra 50 grand. Some people are worth more dead than alive. I think there's a virus just like other things but we're being played in a way to influence the election. Just like how with Obama they were scaring everyone about Swine Flu, working on a new vaccine for that too but that just kinda fizzled out. I know I'm skeptical personally and it is very concerning all the big sites are censoring this stuff. I think because the big drug companies run advertising on these sites, I know in other countries they banned advertising drugs but in the USA that's big business.
Google 'secret gyms LA'.
Covid will never go away till we develop a vaccine.
Covid will never go away till we develop a vaccine.
Regardless of the rigthness/wrongness of the situation as a whole, how is shutting off someone's power in the summer not cruel and unusual punishment?
Time for solar panels, batteries, maybe a generator, and some other electrical knowhow to make the system efficient and failure resistant
Can we get a recap of the Corona figures broken down by country just for a laugh?
I get the impression some countries aren't taking this as seriously as others.
I get the impression some countries aren't taking this as seriously as others.
The leading countries are Australia, NZ, South Korea etc:
https://covid19.healthdata.org
The estimate is that the US will be at 300,000 deaths by end of year. Whilst NZ will be at 22. US is 65x more populous so if they adopted similar policies would have been at 1430 deaths. And it could even be a million deaths by the time a vaccine is readily available.
And people like to bring up the island nonsense but fact is that the borders are largely closed with Canada and Mexico so the problem is purely to do with domestic policies and behaviours.
https://covid19.healthdata.org
The estimate is that the US will be at 300,000 deaths by end of year. Whilst NZ will be at 22. US is 65x more populous so if they adopted similar policies would have been at 1430 deaths. And it could even be a million deaths by the time a vaccine is readily available.
And people like to bring up the island nonsense but fact is that the borders are largely closed with Canada and Mexico so the problem is purely to do with domestic policies and behaviours.
Domestic policies probably don't really do that much aside from maybe closing public services like schools.
It has to do with how people behave, as we see in the article here, and NZ gets much less international traffic than the US and the island take has some merit. Iceland had 10 cases, Madagaskar around 150. You could argue that South Korea is an island too since there probably is little exchange on land routes. Australia wishes to be a continent, but... okay, maybe it really doesn't really fit here.
Infections aren't spread homogeneously, so I believe behavior of people is the main factor. Too bad, because you cannot just blame all this on someone.
I think the causes of infections get misattributed just like the performance of economies to immediate government policies.
It has to do with how people behave, as we see in the article here, and NZ gets much less international traffic than the US and the island take has some merit. Iceland had 10 cases, Madagaskar around 150. You could argue that South Korea is an island too since there probably is little exchange on land routes. Australia wishes to be a continent, but... okay, maybe it really doesn't really fit here.
Infections aren't spread homogeneously, so I believe behavior of people is the main factor. Too bad, because you cannot just blame all this on someone.
I think the causes of infections get misattributed just like the performance of economies to immediate government policies.
Australia and NZ restricted the numbers of incoming travellers and those that did arrive were forced to quarantine in hotels.
US has always been completely free to implement similar policies.
US has always been completely free to implement similar policies.
We are locked down here in Auckland, and had an admission to ICU today - I hope you are right that the death toll doesn’t rise. The new outbreak has been a bit of a shock out of complacency.
I wouldn’t choose to be in any other country at the moment, but this second lockdown has caused much more negativity than the first.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/424048/covid-19-what-hap...
I wouldn’t choose to be in any other country at the moment, but this second lockdown has caused much more negativity than the first.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/424048/covid-19-what-hap...
There seems to be a certain amount of spin in news coverage of New Zealand too. Like, I was amazed to find out that New Zealand's prime minister had been repeatedly telling everyone that workers in quarantine hotels were being tested weekly for two months, when in reality most of them had never been tested at all, then blamed the staff for not getting tested. Then, when everyone was finally tested, a maintenance worker tested positive and it was traced back to someone quarantined there over a fortnight earlier that he'd never had any kind of contact with, implying there was some intermediate case that went undetected due to the lack of testing and that it's probably too late to identify them via testing now. This seems like something that would be a major political scandal if done by someone the press didn't want to portray as a success, but it just seems to have been quietly glossed over by the news coverage in places like the UK and even somewhat in their local news.
Germany has 9000 fatalities with 81 million people. If we extrapolate the US should have maybe 40000. And Germany has basically open borders with 10 countries directly and with about 30 through Schengen. And a much higher population density.
I think that is much better comparison than New Zealand.
Though there is one massive difference Germans hate having freedom and are not willing to die for it from Covid.
On a more serious note, this looks like a symptom of some fundamental crack in a fabric of US/UK etc societies where the baseline trust is almost non-existant (towards government, science, institutions).
Though there is one massive difference Germans hate having freedom and are not willing to die for it from Covid.
On a more serious note, this looks like a symptom of some fundamental crack in a fabric of US/UK etc societies where the baseline trust is almost non-existant (towards government, science, institutions).
Does the US have open borders with 30 countries ? Or is it just 2 which are closed.
And the behaviour of people in societies are determined by (a) leadership and (b) policies of the various levels of government. That is where the US clearly has failed.
And the behaviour of people in societies are determined by (a) leadership and (b) policies of the various levels of government. That is where the US clearly has failed.
Flagged? Come on.
This is about electricity and the law and COVID-19.
This is about electricity and the law and COVID-19.
When working with children, losing ones temper is a great way to show them that they have “won”.
Do you think the people who had the power shut down on their party house feel like they have won?
To the extent that the organizers received both publicity and validation that they were outlaws, yes.
It is also society’s loss to see the state and her leaders lowering themselves to such spiteful tactics.
If it’s against the law, arrest them. Denying them access to civilization is just the sort of retributive justice that makes so much of US law and order problematic. What next? Ban them from buying food? Force them to wear dunce hats in public? Throw them in the village pond and see if they sink?
Arguably it’s far more serious than a law and order issue though. A CDC cordon and enforced quarantine would have tackled the actual issue: public health.
It is also society’s loss to see the state and her leaders lowering themselves to such spiteful tactics.
If it’s against the law, arrest them. Denying them access to civilization is just the sort of retributive justice that makes so much of US law and order problematic. What next? Ban them from buying food? Force them to wear dunce hats in public? Throw them in the village pond and see if they sink?
Arguably it’s far more serious than a law and order issue though. A CDC cordon and enforced quarantine would have tackled the actual issue: public health.
I actually see it as the opposite as "lowering" or "spiteful". Without political food coloring and posturing, it's exactly how you'd address bad behavior in a child or animal. Use a very simple measure that is not overly punitive (no jail time!) that is directly targeted at stopping the bad behavior. Once the bad behavior has stopped, you are done. Repeat until they learn to associate bad behavior with negative outcomes.
100% yes. Like you would not believe.
I don't get it.
> Haha! They shut us down! We sure showed them!
Wouldn't they rather being able to continue partying with the power on?
> Haha! They shut us down! We sure showed them!
Wouldn't they rather being able to continue partying with the power on?
They can buy generators and pay for it with cover charges.
So the city stops nothing and the people keep party. Sounds like they will win.
So the city stops nothing and the people keep party. Sounds like they will win.
I agree that they will just find a work around but I think it still helps. The more of an effort they need to party the less it will happen. The city can just keep adding problems to the party until it becomes too much of a hassle. They could hire parking enforcers for night shifts and when a party happens start towing cars not parked properly. They can set up police road blocks and annoy people and hassle them. I’m not very creative but I’m sure there are enough ways a city can mess with you to deter a party. They can do property assessments and city could argue due to popularity this property is worth even more and tax them. Just sitting idle certainly will not deter them though.
Cutting off water and electricity for order violations sets a very bad precedent, and is highly irresponsible. I'm shocked that it's even legal to do so.