I guess I have to watch ads everywhere on my $1,500 LG TV now(theverge.com)
theverge.com
I guess I have to watch ads everywhere on my $1,500 LG TV now
https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2021/3/10/22323790/lg-oled-tv-commercials-content-store
482 comments
> I honestly don't understand people who want all this internet connected garbage.
Because it’s convenient. As I leave work, my home’s AC turns on. When I arrive and open the door, my lights fade on and my blinds gradually roll up. My music seamlessly transitions to my home theatre with a tap. If someone’s at my door, it appears on my TV. When it’s time to go to bed I can turn everything off with a murmur. Adjust my temperature to be absolutely perfect without getting out of bed. When it’s time to wake up, the lights gradually increase in intensity, and my blinds automatically open again. I can ask for my schedule and whether I need a jacket while getting ready for work. Have my car turn on the AC as I leave my apartment, and have my lights, blinds, and AC automatically turn off when I leave home.
The little things add up. Life in a connected home is easier. I can spend the time saved on things that actually matter. All that is well worth the marginal privacy impact of HomeKit for most people.
Because it’s convenient. As I leave work, my home’s AC turns on. When I arrive and open the door, my lights fade on and my blinds gradually roll up. My music seamlessly transitions to my home theatre with a tap. If someone’s at my door, it appears on my TV. When it’s time to go to bed I can turn everything off with a murmur. Adjust my temperature to be absolutely perfect without getting out of bed. When it’s time to wake up, the lights gradually increase in intensity, and my blinds automatically open again. I can ask for my schedule and whether I need a jacket while getting ready for work. Have my car turn on the AC as I leave my apartment, and have my lights, blinds, and AC automatically turn off when I leave home.
The little things add up. Life in a connected home is easier. I can spend the time saved on things that actually matter. All that is well worth the marginal privacy impact of HomeKit for most people.
I flick lights on and off as I enter a room, which I agree, might use 1/8th of a second each time, say 2 seconds a day. And the light switches are well over two decades old. I have given them 0 thought over those years, and don't expect I will for a few more decades.
A simple $25 programmable thermostat keeps the temperatures moderated. It may use a bit more energy if I'm running a different schedule than usual, but again - decades old, works fine. Car AC, again - works fine, turns on when I turn on the car. My blinds go up and down when I want them to, which has nothing to do with my schedule.
Nothing you've listed (or anyone else who talks about smart homes) is even a positive to me, let alone a time saver.
A simple $25 programmable thermostat keeps the temperatures moderated. It may use a bit more energy if I'm running a different schedule than usual, but again - decades old, works fine. Car AC, again - works fine, turns on when I turn on the car. My blinds go up and down when I want them to, which has nothing to do with my schedule.
Nothing you've listed (or anyone else who talks about smart homes) is even a positive to me, let alone a time saver.
Totally agree, the whole smart IoT stuff is just what Feynman described in his book when his engineering team switched to computers and punchcards instead of doing manual calculations: While the problems could be solved faster, the team started "playing" with that technology becoming fascinated, and in the end the net result was less throughput and problem solving than before.
I also had a guy once showing off his new Apple Watch, showing how he can now switch his lights on/off on the watch and would no longer have to get up to do this. Literally 2 minutes later he showed me how his "Health app" on the watch would remind him every hour to get up from sitting too much, to "improve his health". You just can't make that stuff up.
I also had a guy once showing off his new Apple Watch, showing how he can now switch his lights on/off on the watch and would no longer have to get up to do this. Literally 2 minutes later he showed me how his "Health app" on the watch would remind him every hour to get up from sitting too much, to "improve his health". You just can't make that stuff up.
I think Feynman's engineering team was right, mid-to-long-term. Playing was a good choice, because as they were finding their footing with new technology, they gained the necessary know-how to do calculations that would be infeasible to be done by hand - ultimately expanding both capabilities and efficiency. I bet you could trace parts of modern CFD all the way back to those engineers "playing with computers".
IoT doesn't offer that kind of growth, though. These are all tightly packaged appliances, their whole raison d'etre is to trick you into a subscription to a cloud service. Unless you're running custom software on DIY IoT connected to Home Assistant, or buying a custom deployment from an old-school home automation company, there's no space to grow here. You aren't going to make your home more ergonomic to use than you could with dumb switches, dumb thermostats, remotes and electric outlet timers. You'll just spend a lot of money and tweak a few trivial settings on an app to get something approximating your needs, and then have half of it stop working whenever your ISP drops your Internet connection for a few minutes; you'll have to replace appliances piece by piece as services backing them thank you for your incredible journey together, and eventually redo your setup/configuration with the next big cycle of upgrades.
So no, I think it's not playing like Feynman's engineers. It's playing like buying very expensive clothes and jewelry - it's paying for status, and has no lasting value beyond what you can make out of your temporary boost in status.
--
EDIT: FWIW had my phase of smart lights controlled from a watch - in my case it was Hue lights hooked up to my Pebble. It was more streamlined than you could ever do with Apple Watch, by virtue of Pebble having actual buttons, and control going purely through LAN (Pebble -> Tasker on Android -> Hue Bridge -> Lightbulb). After a week of fun, I realized that most of the time, it's still the second least ergonomic option (the absolute worst was controlling from an app). What I settled on is a combination of dumb switches when on the move (usually faster to reach than even my watch), and a CLI script when near my computer[0].
Also this taught me that the most important component in IoT lights is... smart light switches. Which weren't cheap or easy to get those 6 years ago when I bought my Hue lights, so I had none. With dumb switches, whenever I used them - or my guests used them - they'd screw up the light setup and made bulbs inaccessible over network. I ended up putting a bit of Lisp code on Raspberry Pi, that monitored for lightbulbs that just reappeared on the network, and immediately reconfigured them to a desired state. It's a kind of workaround that you don't get to do if you just buy into neatly packaged, cloud-powered IoT appliances.
--
[0] - https://github.com/TeMPOraL/hju
IoT doesn't offer that kind of growth, though. These are all tightly packaged appliances, their whole raison d'etre is to trick you into a subscription to a cloud service. Unless you're running custom software on DIY IoT connected to Home Assistant, or buying a custom deployment from an old-school home automation company, there's no space to grow here. You aren't going to make your home more ergonomic to use than you could with dumb switches, dumb thermostats, remotes and electric outlet timers. You'll just spend a lot of money and tweak a few trivial settings on an app to get something approximating your needs, and then have half of it stop working whenever your ISP drops your Internet connection for a few minutes; you'll have to replace appliances piece by piece as services backing them thank you for your incredible journey together, and eventually redo your setup/configuration with the next big cycle of upgrades.
So no, I think it's not playing like Feynman's engineers. It's playing like buying very expensive clothes and jewelry - it's paying for status, and has no lasting value beyond what you can make out of your temporary boost in status.
--
EDIT: FWIW had my phase of smart lights controlled from a watch - in my case it was Hue lights hooked up to my Pebble. It was more streamlined than you could ever do with Apple Watch, by virtue of Pebble having actual buttons, and control going purely through LAN (Pebble -> Tasker on Android -> Hue Bridge -> Lightbulb). After a week of fun, I realized that most of the time, it's still the second least ergonomic option (the absolute worst was controlling from an app). What I settled on is a combination of dumb switches when on the move (usually faster to reach than even my watch), and a CLI script when near my computer[0].
Also this taught me that the most important component in IoT lights is... smart light switches. Which weren't cheap or easy to get those 6 years ago when I bought my Hue lights, so I had none. With dumb switches, whenever I used them - or my guests used them - they'd screw up the light setup and made bulbs inaccessible over network. I ended up putting a bit of Lisp code on Raspberry Pi, that monitored for lightbulbs that just reappeared on the network, and immediately reconfigured them to a desired state. It's a kind of workaround that you don't get to do if you just buy into neatly packaged, cloud-powered IoT appliances.
--
[0] - https://github.com/TeMPOraL/hju
My experience with all of this stuff is the setup and configuration time is far longer than I think I would ever save from the convenience.
I have wasted so much time configuring smart home junk...honestly the parent post reads like its mocking my experience with this stuff.
My apartment is a patchwork quilt of perpetually out of date devices each with their own utterly garbage app (or underwhelming homekit integration, or arcane homeassistant yaml incantation if I’m feeling really optimistic).
Various devices and integrations work poorly together if at all, the hubs are updated and old devices are left behind, a failed lightbulb update seemingly bricks it, but an hour of fiddling returns it from the dead, but now it still shows up in various apps under the wrong name and can’t be purged. Siri doesn’t know how to set color temperatures and bulbs look slightly weird depending on who set them with what integration.
My $700 air conditioner forgets about the wifi after being on standby for 24 hours and can’t be activated remotely when coming home from a weekend away. I have multiple wireless hifi dongles because they only work properly with certain devices. Some devices are MIA for minutes at a time despite strong wifi throughout my very modestly sized apartment.
I own smart home products from several brands and have spent hours configuring and/or debugging these things. I am over it. Very few things I have bought have lived up to their promise.
I’m so glad I avoided getting a smart TV the last time I was on the market. My parents smart Samsung is just a few years old, but, as I learned on my last visit, is no longer supported for many of the current streaming apps, so they need a new streaming device to plug into it!
My apartment is a patchwork quilt of perpetually out of date devices each with their own utterly garbage app (or underwhelming homekit integration, or arcane homeassistant yaml incantation if I’m feeling really optimistic).
Various devices and integrations work poorly together if at all, the hubs are updated and old devices are left behind, a failed lightbulb update seemingly bricks it, but an hour of fiddling returns it from the dead, but now it still shows up in various apps under the wrong name and can’t be purged. Siri doesn’t know how to set color temperatures and bulbs look slightly weird depending on who set them with what integration.
My $700 air conditioner forgets about the wifi after being on standby for 24 hours and can’t be activated remotely when coming home from a weekend away. I have multiple wireless hifi dongles because they only work properly with certain devices. Some devices are MIA for minutes at a time despite strong wifi throughout my very modestly sized apartment.
I own smart home products from several brands and have spent hours configuring and/or debugging these things. I am over it. Very few things I have bought have lived up to their promise.
I’m so glad I avoided getting a smart TV the last time I was on the market. My parents smart Samsung is just a few years old, but, as I learned on my last visit, is no longer supported for many of the current streaming apps, so they need a new streaming device to plug into it!
> My parents smart Samsung is just a few years old, but, as I learned on my last visit, is no longer supported for many of the current streaming apps, so they need a new streaming device to plug into it!
I think a dumb TV with an external device is always better and hit this same path with relatives. The normal TV companies have no incentive to keep people happy for years with a dumb TV, so I use a laptop for TV and would only upgrade to a video projector.
I think a dumb TV with an external device is always better and hit this same path with relatives. The normal TV companies have no incentive to keep people happy for years with a dumb TV, so I use a laptop for TV and would only upgrade to a video projector.
I think a dumb TV with an external device is always better and hit this same path with relatives.
We have "smart" TV that has never been and never will be connected to the Internet with an AppleTV connected over HDMI. Works well and when it's time to upgrade - which we are in no hurry to do - just the little box needs replacing. Unfortunately at some point the TV will fail, because things do, and then I doubt we will be able to buy one without its own dedicated 5G connection just for "telemetry" back to the manufacturer.
We have "smart" TV that has never been and never will be connected to the Internet with an AppleTV connected over HDMI. Works well and when it's time to upgrade - which we are in no hurry to do - just the little box needs replacing. Unfortunately at some point the TV will fail, because things do, and then I doubt we will be able to buy one without its own dedicated 5G connection just for "telemetry" back to the manufacturer.
The only investment I've found that's actually worth it is a home entertainment network like plex. Having all my family videos available in every room and every device connected to my Wi-Fi with a few clicks or a link and a shared user account has been worth the dozens of hours I've spent building my library, rebuilding my home server, upgrading components, managing updates, and debugging edge cases. Would I like lights to turn on and off when I enter and exit rooms? Yeah, but smart switches don't cover all of my use cases naturally and without manual overrides and the convenience isn't worth the thousands of dollars to retrofit my house for an immature technology.
> Would I like lights to turn on and off when I enter and exit rooms?
Good news, we've had motion detecting light switches for decades.
Good news, we've had motion detecting light switches for decades.
As a side effect, the motion-sensing lights in my office turn off if I don’t get up and move every so often, which reminds me to exercise.
"Our smart light switches are equipped with PersonalCoach™. PersonalCoach™ is an interactive exercise experience using the latest technologies to alter the user's environment in order to make exercise fun and seamlessly integrated into daily life."
I don't use a smart home system from a company, just my own scripts for different systems and to glue them together. Was it worth my time? No, not at all, but it was a good excuse to play with languages I wasn't familiar with and learn some new things.
Time spent just configuring a pre-built system, that, in my opinion, is time wasted because it isn't likely that I can apply it to anything else.
Time spent just configuring a pre-built system, that, in my opinion, is time wasted because it isn't likely that I can apply it to anything else.
Of course, smart homes are not for everyone - just telling the OP why some people prefer them.
I didn’t go into detail, but smart home appliances have more variability than I described. Let’s take lights. If you want to play a movie on the TV you can turn your lights off (all of them) from the couch. If you’re listening to music, you can set the lights to a warm relaxing glow. So on and so forth. Definitely more than 2 seconds saved, and in the end, it wasn’t just the time saved but the added convenience and personalization that was worth it for me.
Sure, you can do most of these things with “dumb” appliances, but that’s just it. You won’t get the same level of control, personalization, adaptability, or “smarts” - if any of that matters to you.
I didn’t go into detail, but smart home appliances have more variability than I described. Let’s take lights. If you want to play a movie on the TV you can turn your lights off (all of them) from the couch. If you’re listening to music, you can set the lights to a warm relaxing glow. So on and so forth. Definitely more than 2 seconds saved, and in the end, it wasn’t just the time saved but the added convenience and personalization that was worth it for me.
Sure, you can do most of these things with “dumb” appliances, but that’s just it. You won’t get the same level of control, personalization, adaptability, or “smarts” - if any of that matters to you.
Speaking as a remodeller of homes, which includes installing the occasional "smart home" systems. They are so not worth it. The rest is marketing.
For me, the real killer was being able to turn off all the lights in the house from my bed.
I could live without it (and currently am, due to an apartment move), but it was certainly handy.
I could live without it (and currently am, due to an apartment move), but it was certainly handy.
Phones are too dirty to be allowed in bed. This was my thinking pre Covid 69 too. In my opinion it's like wearing shoes in bed.
What I like most about my smart home (and it works without internet) is that my garage door gets closed when I forget to. And the ability to turn on floodlights in the yard from outside.
Not used as much, but turning on the A/C before arriving home from a long trip sure is nice. That obviously requires the internet, but I refuse to use a third party.
Downsides - 2 dead smart switches in 2 weeks. They aren't cheap and should last a lot longer.
Not used as much, but turning on the A/C before arriving home from a long trip sure is nice. That obviously requires the internet, but I refuse to use a third party.
Downsides - 2 dead smart switches in 2 weeks. They aren't cheap and should last a lot longer.
Dumb garage door closers with programmable timers exist.
The same goes for hvac. Configuration might be more complicated but I'd rather walk into a sweltering home than have a massive power bill when some script kid pwns my system and sets the temp to 50f for two weeks.
The same goes for hvac. Configuration might be more complicated but I'd rather walk into a sweltering home than have a massive power bill when some script kid pwns my system and sets the temp to 50f for two weeks.
You know a dumb HVAC thermostat that can somehow know when I'll return home from a trip when I don't know when I'll return? I'll take 2!
Humor aside, I'm still interested in what you are referring to. I'm not aware of a way to do that, but maybe didn't know what to look for.
I was interested in a thermostat with an API that worked locally, no internet needed and no 3rd party required and that is what I went with. Paired with the alarm system (old school, hard wired, it doesn't know what the internet is) it can alert me when the A/C is on, but a window is open.
Humor aside, I'm still interested in what you are referring to. I'm not aware of a way to do that, but maybe didn't know what to look for.
I was interested in a thermostat with an API that worked locally, no internet needed and no 3rd party required and that is what I went with. Paired with the alarm system (old school, hard wired, it doesn't know what the internet is) it can alert me when the A/C is on, but a window is open.
Most of the dumb thermostats are 7 day at best. I couldn't find one in a 5 minutes of searching so I gave up. I'd be surprised if they don't exist though.
A 7 day may not be sufficient for an 8 day trip unless you can have a friend or family member drop by to adjust the settings, but I'm definitely going to keep this in the back of my head for when I inevitably need to upgrade my HVAC.
A 7 day may not be sufficient for an 8 day trip unless you can have a friend or family member drop by to adjust the settings, but I'm definitely going to keep this in the back of my head for when I inevitably need to upgrade my HVAC.
50f is pretty cold for indoor temps. My house is in the 65 to 73 range all the time.
Some of the listed uses are not about saving time or energy - though admittedly most were, and seem excessive to me as well.
The automated lights and blinds in the morning, for example, can for some improve sleep quality compared to a standard alarm. Then again this would probably be better as dumb blinds and lights on timers.
The automated lights and blinds in the morning, for example, can for some improve sleep quality compared to a standard alarm. Then again this would probably be better as dumb blinds and lights on timers.
It is mostly convenience (for me). I think most people talking savings are just trying to justify the toys.
I have a few smart switches that I can't say are anything more than convenience, but one smart plug paid for itself in 7 months and now saves me a whooping $4 per month on propane. A dumb timer would almost work, but the smart plug makes it so I can handle the exceptions to the rule.
I have a few smart switches that I can't say are anything more than convenience, but one smart plug paid for itself in 7 months and now saves me a whooping $4 per month on propane. A dumb timer would almost work, but the smart plug makes it so I can handle the exceptions to the rule.
I don't think I've ever felt inconvenienced that I had to manually flip a light switch. I have, on the other hand, felt inconvenienced plenty of times by machines that try to guess what I want and get it wrong.
Pft. If you can't envision how "phoning home" and turning the heat or AC, or whatever else you may have, on (or off) is handy then you aren't even trying.
Handy enough to warrant the risk? Probably not, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of the tech in general. But as is, you're just bitter like a fox unable to reach grapes... (totally something foxes eat.)
Anyways, just don't say silly things like "automation, lame!" just because you're (justly) paranoid about cloud companies giving your data to the government and every social engineer. It's still a good goal, the point is just that we should control our own data.
Handy enough to warrant the risk? Probably not, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of the tech in general. But as is, you're just bitter like a fox unable to reach grapes... (totally something foxes eat.)
Anyways, just don't say silly things like "automation, lame!" just because you're (justly) paranoid about cloud companies giving your data to the government and every social engineer. It's still a good goal, the point is just that we should control our own data.
> If you can't envision how "phoning home" and turning the heat or AC, or whatever else you may have, on (or off) is handy then you aren't even trying.
I don't have AC. If I turn off the heat, my pipes will burst. I can't see a reason to turn lights or fridges on/off when I'm not there.
> just don't say silly things like "automation, lame!"
I didn't. I said I honestly can't see the utility in any of it.
I don't have AC. If I turn off the heat, my pipes will burst. I can't see a reason to turn lights or fridges on/off when I'm not there.
> just don't say silly things like "automation, lame!"
I didn't. I said I honestly can't see the utility in any of it.
There's no need to call someone "bitter" or "paranoid" simply because they don't value the rather minor conveniences smart devices promise.
For many people (including me), manually adjusting AC and lights or getting up to check the door simply isn't enough of a pain point to create interest in smart devices.
For many people (including me), manually adjusting AC and lights or getting up to check the door simply isn't enough of a pain point to create interest in smart devices.
Let's follow up in 50 years to see if you still think it's convenient.
My house has still has some knob and tube wiring. Sure, let's see what 50 years brings.
I’d love to see an estimate of how much time per year saved. My suspicion is, not much. And my bet would be that one or two outages (likely to happen at some point with these devices) would tip the scale the other way.
Nothing wrong with liking cool stuff, but this type of argument doesn’t resonate with me.
Nothing wrong with liking cool stuff, but this type of argument doesn’t resonate with me.
Phillips hue works like a normal light if there is no internet or if you cycle the power from the switch.
Mine works completely if there is no internet. I like the Hue system as it only relies on the internet connection for software updates of you want them. The Zigbee network it uses has been super reliable for me, and always responds to the app which only needs to work on my LAN. It only gets spotty sometimes for me when used via Amazon Echo devices, which have to phone home to interpret the voice command before triggering the Hue devices.
Your approach sounds similar to mine. While it is true the switches work without internet, out even without the local controller - I just learned the hard way that they don't work at all when the capacitor inside dies. Keep a dumb switch on hand so you can swap it in when you have a light you can no longer turn on!
I had 2 die recently. The is a thread out there on repairing them, but I don't think my soldering skills are that good. I'm also thinking "repair my light switch?" What has the world come to?
I had 2 die recently. The is a thread out there on repairing them, but I don't think my soldering skills are that good. I'm also thinking "repair my light switch?" What has the world come to?
Yes good point. I always have internet so I never noticed but of course it's all on the local network.
I was considering buying a bunch of hue bulbs but this feature is making me hesitant:
The hue bulbs can “remember” their last setting, but if you power cycle them twice in a row (without waiting ~15 seconds in between) then they reset to the default brightness & color.
I don’t care about any of this automatic timing or app control. What I want is for every lightbulb in my house set to the same color temperature, and for that temperature to change over the course of the day - circadian lighting like f.lux for my entire house. It seemed to me that this should be possible with hue bulbs, but it turns out they can’t work that way unless I want to also replace all of the switches in my house with “smart” switches.
I don’t care about any of this automatic timing or app control. What I want is for every lightbulb in my house set to the same color temperature, and for that temperature to change over the course of the day - circadian lighting like f.lux for my entire house. It seemed to me that this should be possible with hue bulbs, but it turns out they can’t work that way unless I want to also replace all of the switches in my house with “smart” switches.
I didn’t replace the switches. They’re additional. The smart switch and the dumb switch both work. One great advantage is you can use a greater variety of bulbs and due to this fixture positioning is much more flexible. You can turn on 20 bulbs at once if you like. Make zones in your house. Turn on the whole house at once. Timers, programmed changes etc etc
It's not about time savings. To me at least. It's the feeling of convenience and comfort.
Yeah, idk why all of these comments are focused on time savings. That’s not the point.
The point is that when you wake up and it’s cold in your house, and you don’t want to get out of bed, you can flip on your heat and warm up the house while you’re still waking up.
Or if you left the house and forgot if you turned off the lights. Or left the AC on for the pets. Your 25 year old switches aren’t going to help you there.
Or another one I always use - if it’s raining out and I have full hands, I will unlock my front door before I get out of my car, so I can just walk right in.
The point is that when you wake up and it’s cold in your house, and you don’t want to get out of bed, you can flip on your heat and warm up the house while you’re still waking up.
Or if you left the house and forgot if you turned off the lights. Or left the AC on for the pets. Your 25 year old switches aren’t going to help you there.
Or another one I always use - if it’s raining out and I have full hands, I will unlock my front door before I get out of my car, so I can just walk right in.
>I can spend the time saved on things that actually matter.
Because that literally was the sole point of benefits in the GP post!
Because that literally was the sole point of benefits in the GP post!
It literally wasn't. You left out:
> The little things add up. Life in a connected home is easier
I think the fact that you interpreted that, followed by a point about saving time, as only implying saved time is part of the huge disconnect in these discussions.
Some of the functionality saves me time. When I don't have to go downstairs to turn off a light I forgot downstairs when I've already gotten into bed, saves time, sure. But the saved time, to me at least, is entirely incidental.
I have no idea whether it adds up to enough to offset the time I've taken to set things up (I also, however, think that people massively overestimate the effort involved; I set up a couple of hubs, replaced the lightbulbs in my house in a couple of hours total several years ago; replaced radiator valves in a couple of hours), but it's entirely irrelevant to me.
I would do this all over again even if I knew it'd take me ten times as long to set up as all the time I'll "save" over my lifetime
Because I value the comfort of e.g. adjusting the heating before I get up (yes, I can get timers; my thermostat already uses a timer, but sometimes I deviate from my normal schedule), or turn off the light without having to get back out of bed far more than the time saved.
We all have things we invest time in preparing for so that the event itself doesn't get interrupted by small annoyances, even if it doesn't "pay off" in saved time. A "smart home" is that first and foremost.
> The little things add up. Life in a connected home is easier
I think the fact that you interpreted that, followed by a point about saving time, as only implying saved time is part of the huge disconnect in these discussions.
Some of the functionality saves me time. When I don't have to go downstairs to turn off a light I forgot downstairs when I've already gotten into bed, saves time, sure. But the saved time, to me at least, is entirely incidental.
I have no idea whether it adds up to enough to offset the time I've taken to set things up (I also, however, think that people massively overestimate the effort involved; I set up a couple of hubs, replaced the lightbulbs in my house in a couple of hours total several years ago; replaced radiator valves in a couple of hours), but it's entirely irrelevant to me.
I would do this all over again even if I knew it'd take me ten times as long to set up as all the time I'll "save" over my lifetime
Because I value the comfort of e.g. adjusting the heating before I get up (yes, I can get timers; my thermostat already uses a timer, but sometimes I deviate from my normal schedule), or turn off the light without having to get back out of bed far more than the time saved.
We all have things we invest time in preparing for so that the event itself doesn't get interrupted by small annoyances, even if it doesn't "pay off" in saved time. A "smart home" is that first and foremost.
The other guy is right - if you have a network outage your appliances revert to “normal” behavior.
But even after that, it’s not just about the time saved. It’s an increased amount of convenience in day to day life. I mentioned this in another comment, but you definitely feel a sort of reduction in cognitive load when your desired home state can be triggered with a spoken word.
But even after that, it’s not just about the time saved. It’s an increased amount of convenience in day to day life. I mentioned this in another comment, but you definitely feel a sort of reduction in cognitive load when your desired home state can be triggered with a spoken word.
> if you have a network outage your appliances revert to “normal” behavior.
Would that that were true. Internet of Shit is rife with examples of products that fail completely without connectivity.
https://twitter.com/internetofshit
Would that that were true. Internet of Shit is rife with examples of products that fail completely without connectivity.
https://twitter.com/internetofshit
Light switches cause cognitive load? If anything, people have too little cognitive load keeping their brains off most of the time.
These stories almost reads like a parody or a dystopia. What's the next step of automation ? To be put in an artificial coma in sleeping pods to conserve as much energy and live as long as possible in some kind of VR in which nothing bad ever happens ?
So much time, energy and money spent on something that tells you who's at the door or if you need a damned jacket... So many gadgets that need to be manufactured and shipped to the other side of the world to open your blinds... I can already see a future in which people don't know how to use a "dumb" door knobs
All this shit will end up in a landfill in less than 50 years, and probably be deprecated well before. The amount of waste generated for such a minor improvement of quality of life over good old proven tech which are a fraction of the cost, waste and maintenance (light switches, regular timed central heating/cooling, weather reports and peepholes). These things are the literal opposite of sustainability.
Did we all collectively go mad ?
So much time, energy and money spent on something that tells you who's at the door or if you need a damned jacket... So many gadgets that need to be manufactured and shipped to the other side of the world to open your blinds... I can already see a future in which people don't know how to use a "dumb" door knobs
All this shit will end up in a landfill in less than 50 years, and probably be deprecated well before. The amount of waste generated for such a minor improvement of quality of life over good old proven tech which are a fraction of the cost, waste and maintenance (light switches, regular timed central heating/cooling, weather reports and peepholes). These things are the literal opposite of sustainability.
Did we all collectively go mad ?
It's okay if you decide for yourself that you want no part in this. But I don't think our global waste problem will be solved by berating people that enjoy smart homes as a hobby, convenience, or both.
I've been a fan for about 5 years now and I have everything connected as well. It used to be a big pain and it still can be sometimes, so I don't agree 100% with the comment you replied on that it saves time in a significant way. Though I assume that depends on your setup and how much you tinker with it. I know I will never get back the time I invested over the years in trying to make things work by not having to press light switches anymore.
But you know what? It's fun. I like it. It's the closest thing to an Iron Man like house we have so far. And I will be damned if I let it be ruined by you shaking your head and calling us enthusiasts mad.
I've been a fan for about 5 years now and I have everything connected as well. It used to be a big pain and it still can be sometimes, so I don't agree 100% with the comment you replied on that it saves time in a significant way. Though I assume that depends on your setup and how much you tinker with it. I know I will never get back the time I invested over the years in trying to make things work by not having to press light switches anymore.
But you know what? It's fun. I like it. It's the closest thing to an Iron Man like house we have so far. And I will be damned if I let it be ruined by you shaking your head and calling us enthusiasts mad.
> But you know what? It's fun. I like it. It's the closest thing to an Iron Man like house we have so far.
That's the only argument I can accept, "it's cool". I still believe it's not sustainable in any way, shape or form and that it's going to be a major pain in the ass down the line both in term of waste and long term maintenance.
It's like huge diesel trucks running straight pipes, some people think it's fun, I'm glad most people don't and that most places ban them.
We'd get more time to spend on "real life" if we used automation's productivity improvements to reduce working hours to 4 hours a day rather than by getting gadgets rolling our blinds and setting the AC automatically.
That's the only argument I can accept, "it's cool". I still believe it's not sustainable in any way, shape or form and that it's going to be a major pain in the ass down the line both in term of waste and long term maintenance.
It's like huge diesel trucks running straight pipes, some people think it's fun, I'm glad most people don't and that most places ban them.
We'd get more time to spend on "real life" if we used automation's productivity improvements to reduce working hours to 4 hours a day rather than by getting gadgets rolling our blinds and setting the AC automatically.
That's fair. But it's a valid argument, don't you think?
I mean, I agree - of course we'd be better off if we finally got a grip on our mad consumerism. Granted, I don't have any numbers, but from my gut feeling, I would wager that huge diesel trucks are a bit more extreme, impact wise. Of course these gadgets are not great from an environmental perspective. But pretty much nothing is if you break it down. You can expand your argument to almost any area. From phones to gaming consoles to plastic toys for kids to clothes ... everything is going to end up in a landfill eventually and we'd be better off not using these things in the first place. I hope this doesn't sound like whataboutism, that's not what I try to say. I just think it's kind of odd to single out smart home devices when talking about the environment. I'd be gladly proven wrong though.
I don't quite know what to make of the last sentence of your comment. Yeah, automation's productivity improvements to reduce working hours to 4 hours a day would be sweet. Sign me up, I'd even sacrifice all my smart home stuff for it. But it's got literally nothing to do with the argument at hand. It's not like the people have chosen that we want to control our lights with our voice over cutting our working days in half. Unless you mean that you just can't understand the argument that the smart home automation gives us more time to focus on real life. That I agree with. But again, that's not the point. It's fun.
Regarding long term maintenance: we're in the very early stages still. I sincerely hope for more cross-compatibility further down the road. Also, open source projects have done wonders so far to increase the maintainability of smart home products. But that's for enthusiasts, not your everyday I-bought-alexa-and-hue smart home fan.
I mean, I agree - of course we'd be better off if we finally got a grip on our mad consumerism. Granted, I don't have any numbers, but from my gut feeling, I would wager that huge diesel trucks are a bit more extreme, impact wise. Of course these gadgets are not great from an environmental perspective. But pretty much nothing is if you break it down. You can expand your argument to almost any area. From phones to gaming consoles to plastic toys for kids to clothes ... everything is going to end up in a landfill eventually and we'd be better off not using these things in the first place. I hope this doesn't sound like whataboutism, that's not what I try to say. I just think it's kind of odd to single out smart home devices when talking about the environment. I'd be gladly proven wrong though.
I don't quite know what to make of the last sentence of your comment. Yeah, automation's productivity improvements to reduce working hours to 4 hours a day would be sweet. Sign me up, I'd even sacrifice all my smart home stuff for it. But it's got literally nothing to do with the argument at hand. It's not like the people have chosen that we want to control our lights with our voice over cutting our working days in half. Unless you mean that you just can't understand the argument that the smart home automation gives us more time to focus on real life. That I agree with. But again, that's not the point. It's fun.
Regarding long term maintenance: we're in the very early stages still. I sincerely hope for more cross-compatibility further down the road. Also, open source projects have done wonders so far to increase the maintainability of smart home products. But that's for enthusiasts, not your everyday I-bought-alexa-and-hue smart home fan.
It's like people only see one side of home automation: "everything is connected to the internet"
Please do some reading or at least inform yourself this is not the case.
99% of all "smart" devices in my home are connected to local APIs only without any need for the internet.
Please do some reading or at least inform yourself this is not the case.
99% of all "smart" devices in my home are connected to local APIs only without any need for the internet.
Have you ever used a car from 1970 ? How's the electronic holding ? Internet isn't the only issue, instead of a physical switch you introduce 50 points of failure to save 5 seconds per day.
Last year my parent's electric blind motor died, no manual backup, they had to wait two weeks for a replacement, this was a large window/door thing, it was in closed position and blocked 70% of the daylight in the living room/kitchen. The house is not even 5 years old, I dread the day I inherit it and have to deal with this bs
Last year my parent's electric blind motor died, no manual backup, they had to wait two weeks for a replacement, this was a large window/door thing, it was in closed position and blocked 70% of the daylight in the living room/kitchen. The house is not even 5 years old, I dread the day I inherit it and have to deal with this bs
i think people who repair and make stuff hate these sorts of things because they introduce a layer of complexity that ruins longevity and predictability. what you call convenience, i call added costs down the line, and unreliability. also, the "time saved" is a bit like saying modal editors are good because you can enter text more efficiently. its all technically true, but seems irrelevant to me (and i use vim exclusively). but i have to concede that this idea of IOT home convenience stuff may be legitimately useful for some people, like yourself. it just seems to be the case that thats only true for some people.
> introduce a layer of complexity that ruins longevity and predictability.
These are more growing pains than anything else. Adding a HomeKit appliance is absurdly simply these days (you just scan it with your phone) and then it just works.
> the "time saved" is a bit like saying modal editors are good because you can enter text more efficiently
It’s not an insignificant amount. If you live in a highly connected smart home, you will definitely notice the saved time and you will definitely notice how you simply have to do less things. There’s a sort of lightened cognitive load that’s difficult to describe. Things just feel more chill when you can adjust conditions to perfection without lifting a finger.
These are more growing pains than anything else. Adding a HomeKit appliance is absurdly simply these days (you just scan it with your phone) and then it just works.
> the "time saved" is a bit like saying modal editors are good because you can enter text more efficiently
It’s not an insignificant amount. If you live in a highly connected smart home, you will definitely notice the saved time and you will definitely notice how you simply have to do less things. There’s a sort of lightened cognitive load that’s difficult to describe. Things just feel more chill when you can adjust conditions to perfection without lifting a finger.
There is a level of internal complexity implied within "it just works," and an added layer of frustration when someday down the line, it just doesn't work. Eventually an electronic component wears out, or the manufacturer shuts down their server, or your phone is no longer supported.
I have always loved the idea of a connected house, but I haven't yet seen a feature that would make it worth the trouble of installation, added cost, and yet another app to control my life.
I have always loved the idea of a connected house, but I haven't yet seen a feature that would make it worth the trouble of installation, added cost, and yet another app to control my life.
Curious if, in ten years, the HomeKit appliances of today will still work. Or will you have to find a decades-old phone to control them?
It's always interesting to see vestiges of a home intercom in really old homes, the phone jacks in bedrooms, ladder-style wire for TV aerials mounted in the walls, bits of some kind of home-alarm system....
It's always interesting to see vestiges of a home intercom in really old homes, the phone jacks in bedrooms, ladder-style wire for TV aerials mounted in the walls, bits of some kind of home-alarm system....
I don't know specifically about HomeKit, no experience with it, but many of the underlying standards are "old". E.g. Zigbee is 20+ years old and was standardized in 2003.
Most of these systems today also let you put in place one hub per standard you care about, and then just update devices, and you can mix and match. Some, like Zigbee, are standards supported by multiple manufacturers. The radiator thermostat interface I rely on is standard for UK radiators at least, and is physical and pre-dates electronic thermostats by decades - the smart thermostats physically press down on a switch on the radiators; to replace them with another standard - or a manual one - you just twist the old one off and twist a new one one, done in ~2 minutes.
They similarly communicate with a hub, and an optional central boiler thermostat. The boiler thermostat is the only part that took any time to figure out (but there are plenty of installer services available), and the thermostat interface for boilers in the UK at least is built so that anyone can build replacements; you just need something that can switch a current.
Keep in mind that the only thing that is new here is the network enabled smart control - many of the interfaces are already really old and established.
I have ~20 Zigbee lightbulbs. I also have some LightwaveRF switches. As I refurbish and/or as the Zigbee bulbs die, I'll slowly replace the Zigbee lightbulbs with Lightwave switches as they are more convenient. But the difference is small enough that I've not bothered going over the house to replace them all. If either one of them become hard or expensive to come by, I'll just at that point add a hub that can bridge between a new standard and whatever device I use to interact with them. Setting up the Lightwave hub took me less than half an hour. If I have to invest half an hour to add a new type of hub every 10-20 years, I'm fine with that.
In this case, if Lightwave "dies" entirely and becomes impossible to support, I'll lose the smart functionality of those switches, but nothing else is hard-wired (the Zigbee setup is all mesh between the bulbs themselves, and a hub built into one of my Alexas, and they too require no extra wiring that a normal switch doesn't, and fall back to working like a slightly fancy normal switch if the network is unavailable, and someone unaware of Lightwave wouldn't know anything was broken. And that's what I'd face while transitioning to something new.
Most of these systems today also let you put in place one hub per standard you care about, and then just update devices, and you can mix and match. Some, like Zigbee, are standards supported by multiple manufacturers. The radiator thermostat interface I rely on is standard for UK radiators at least, and is physical and pre-dates electronic thermostats by decades - the smart thermostats physically press down on a switch on the radiators; to replace them with another standard - or a manual one - you just twist the old one off and twist a new one one, done in ~2 minutes.
They similarly communicate with a hub, and an optional central boiler thermostat. The boiler thermostat is the only part that took any time to figure out (but there are plenty of installer services available), and the thermostat interface for boilers in the UK at least is built so that anyone can build replacements; you just need something that can switch a current.
Keep in mind that the only thing that is new here is the network enabled smart control - many of the interfaces are already really old and established.
I have ~20 Zigbee lightbulbs. I also have some LightwaveRF switches. As I refurbish and/or as the Zigbee bulbs die, I'll slowly replace the Zigbee lightbulbs with Lightwave switches as they are more convenient. But the difference is small enough that I've not bothered going over the house to replace them all. If either one of them become hard or expensive to come by, I'll just at that point add a hub that can bridge between a new standard and whatever device I use to interact with them. Setting up the Lightwave hub took me less than half an hour. If I have to invest half an hour to add a new type of hub every 10-20 years, I'm fine with that.
In this case, if Lightwave "dies" entirely and becomes impossible to support, I'll lose the smart functionality of those switches, but nothing else is hard-wired (the Zigbee setup is all mesh between the bulbs themselves, and a hub built into one of my Alexas, and they too require no extra wiring that a normal switch doesn't, and fall back to working like a slightly fancy normal switch if the network is unavailable, and someone unaware of Lightwave wouldn't know anything was broken. And that's what I'd face while transitioning to something new.
I don’t know how to measure but my intuition is choice support bias is at play here and from many proponents of “highly connected” homes. HomeKit seems to be nearly as fiddly as roll your own solutions and the cognitive load for additional debugging and layers of complexity seems to outweigh the gains.
But these are just two points of view.
My brother is a gadget freak. He loves the stuff. But after a couple years his home automation was broken.
After 2 hours of debugging he told me all he could think of is what is wrong with just a plain light switch.
This stuff is great when it works but when it fails it’s just a huge frustrating time suck.
After 2 hours of debugging he told me all he could think of is what is wrong with just a plain light switch.
This stuff is great when it works but when it fails it’s just a huge frustrating time suck.
well, what your saying is not insane. but i would think id need to see these products in use for another 5-10 years before id feel like they were worth the trouble. i.e. the end of life cycle is kind of uncharted territory. is apple just going to brick everything like they did with their old phones? are they going to crap out because of power surges? etc...
How much time or effort is this actually saving you? Maybe its just me, but id say i spend maybe a few minutes doing these tasks every year. A lot of this is achievable without smart technology anyways
Originally I thought the same as you, but when I tried it, I noticed that it actually saves way more time than I expected.
I think we simply don’t notice the amount of time spent on the little, meaningless things. For me, once things were connected it kind of felt like I had aliased a commonly-used command.
You could also argue that the saved time was already spent in researching which smart home appliances to get (bad ones can be a flaky nightmare), which is a fair argument. For me, though, the increased convenience in actual day to day use was well worth it.
I think we simply don’t notice the amount of time spent on the little, meaningless things. For me, once things were connected it kind of felt like I had aliased a commonly-used command.
You could also argue that the saved time was already spent in researching which smart home appliances to get (bad ones can be a flaky nightmare), which is a fair argument. For me, though, the increased convenience in actual day to day use was well worth it.
Maybe you overestimate the amount of time you save? Ive definitely noticed that when i get a something thats a time saver, i tend to overestimate how much time it saved, maybe its more that mental load of not having to worry about it.
I wanted to install a system to automatically switch lights on and off when I enter/leave the room, but a quick calculation showed that the system will pay off in maybe 10 years, with today's efficient LED lights. And it will sure not work 100% exactly as expected, causing frustration.
Most of that stuff aside from the surveillance feed you could set up, probably in a lot less time, with analog outlet timers. My grandparents had a setup similar to this smart home setup 30 years ago.
This reads like an American Psycho monologue (no offense).
But won't having to sit through a few additional ads wipe out all of those time savings? Not to mention the time spent on setting them up in a way to make the appliances not spy on you.
I’m talking more about general smart appliances than smart TVs. I don’t connect my smart TV to the internet, that’s the job of the Apple TV or Nvidia Shield.
I found this "convenience" is mostly not convenient at all, wastes a lot of time, brings a lot of frustration and sometimes is outright dangerous. For example, an internet connected CO2 detector provides a perfect way for burglars to detect when no one is at home.
Connections are always broke, wifi passwords are forgotten, sites not accessible, phone number does not pass verification process etc. Thankfully, all my devices still have buttons that allow them to operate without internet connection, but I fear that will not be the case in the future ..
Connections are always broke, wifi passwords are forgotten, sites not accessible, phone number does not pass verification process etc. Thankfully, all my devices still have buttons that allow them to operate without internet connection, but I fear that will not be the case in the future ..
Does it all work that seamlessly? If so, that sounds lovely.
As a software engineer with a master's degree in computer science engineering and over a decade of experience working on high reliability embedded systems, I'm about ready to just give up and expel any electronics from my home more elaborate than a dimmable LED lightbulb.
On the other hand, maybe consumer electronics are flaky for me due to the fact that there's 20+ other wifi access points in range besides my own, and half my electric sockets are still on 100 year old knob and tube wiring...
As a software engineer with a master's degree in computer science engineering and over a decade of experience working on high reliability embedded systems, I'm about ready to just give up and expel any electronics from my home more elaborate than a dimmable LED lightbulb.
On the other hand, maybe consumer electronics are flaky for me due to the fact that there's 20+ other wifi access points in range besides my own, and half my electric sockets are still on 100 year old knob and tube wiring...
My dishwasher and washing machine do meaningful work for me, saving many hours each day/week. But what you describe is saving a minute here, a second there. Spending time on things that matter is all well and good, but is there really a difference between doing those things for 4 hours rather than 3 hours and 52 minutes?
Personally, I enjoyed the ceremony of opening blinds, turn on the lights when I returned from work.
HomeKit is so bad and clunky I had to delete it and just use the proprietary apps shipped with the iot products we use. I really wish they tried to do less and opened up their OS to better developers to build their own solutions instead.
No it's CHEAP. A 31" Sony Trimaster costs $30,000. Getting a 4K OLED screen the size of a windshield for $1,500 is beyond suspicious.
Life in a connected home is easier. I can spend the time saved on things that actually matter.
Philosophical point: If everything you do is under the whims of large corporations, does anything "actually matter" anymore? Is it really your life, or are you just "living" an empty existence controlled by global faceless entities who seek to maximise only their profits?
"We fight because we live. We live because we fight."
Philosophical point: If everything you do is under the whims of large corporations, does anything "actually matter" anymore? Is it really your life, or are you just "living" an empty existence controlled by global faceless entities who seek to maximise only their profits?
"We fight because we live. We live because we fight."
Who said anything about big corporations? Maybe all of his stuff uses zigbee or z-wave and is controlled by FOSS controllers?
I believe we were talking about all the major "smart" television manufacturers.
Wether they use a Zigbee under the hood is orthogonal.
Wether they use a Zigbee under the hood is orthogonal.
The post we are responding to had only one smart TV element involved, and that was the door camera. The rest was about thermostats, light control, and window shades.
I think its fair to point out that those things don't have to be proprietary. Even the door camera doesn't really have to use a smart tv, though it probably does in that case.
I think its fair to point out that those things don't have to be proprietary. Even the door camera doesn't really have to use a smart tv, though it probably does in that case.
> If everything you do is under the whims of large corporations, does anything "actually matter" anymore?
First, you already live life at the whims of many other entities. Whether you use HomeKit or not, will most certainly not be the breaking point for your freedom.
Second, what relation does being under some level of control have to the value of life? For example, would an otherwise fulfilling life under a monarch be empty and meaningless?
First, you already live life at the whims of many other entities. Whether you use HomeKit or not, will most certainly not be the breaking point for your freedom.
Second, what relation does being under some level of control have to the value of life? For example, would an otherwise fulfilling life under a monarch be empty and meaningless?
The other day I went to my parent's place. I literally couldn't turn the lights on because the Google Home there didn't recognise me. Smart things that add value are okay, but smart things with a single point of failure are just stupid.
That does indeed seem stupid. There are plenty of smart switches that also have buttons.
To be honest, I think they've gotten so used to not using the switches they don't realise they're not working. Will be inconvenient if the internet goes down...
I keep seeing this exact comment at the top in every thread about smart devices. It's basically copypasta at this point. Even the replies follow the same pattern we've seen a thousand times.
I wish there was a way to detect "standard comments" and filter them out or put them in a different tab. It's not just this topic. Another example is the "I quit X and couldn't be happier" we see in every thread about Big Tech, regardless of the content of the article.
I understand that these comments resonate with a lot of people but when clicking a thread I expect to read comments about the actual topic (the new intrusive ads that LG just introduced), not generic comments about smart devices in general.
I wish there was a way to detect "standard comments" and filter them out or put them in a different tab. It's not just this topic. Another example is the "I quit X and couldn't be happier" we see in every thread about Big Tech, regardless of the content of the article.
I understand that these comments resonate with a lot of people but when clicking a thread I expect to read comments about the actual topic (the new intrusive ads that LG just introduced), not generic comments about smart devices in general.
Ugh, in every thread there's some guy complaining about people's opinions, just because they don't specifically mention the brands and events from the specifc article linked.
"A Panasonic TV gave your voice-search data to the police? Irrelevant! We're discussing a Mitsubishi smart-stove phoning the FBI because it detected you cooking Panda meat."
I wish these people would realize that the problem is smart devices in general and stop complaining that the tiniest of circumstances make an entirely new case.
I understand that this sort of emotional populism resonates with people: "lol, no - this case is totally different and you have to suck it!" but when I click on a headline I expect to see people engaging with the heart of the issue, not dodging and dissembling because they're offended by the implications.
----
Yeah, I get ya. It is annoying that people don't address the specific topic at hand, but you have to realize that the specific brand (LG) of the TV isn't the issue - companies blatantly invading our privacy is. If we get too distracted on which company is doing it this week we'll look up in a few years and realize we're arguing over whether Samsung or LG is sending our records to the government instead of fighting for a blanket users-rights bill and it'll be too late, both will be.
"A Panasonic TV gave your voice-search data to the police? Irrelevant! We're discussing a Mitsubishi smart-stove phoning the FBI because it detected you cooking Panda meat."
I wish these people would realize that the problem is smart devices in general and stop complaining that the tiniest of circumstances make an entirely new case.
I understand that this sort of emotional populism resonates with people: "lol, no - this case is totally different and you have to suck it!" but when I click on a headline I expect to see people engaging with the heart of the issue, not dodging and dissembling because they're offended by the implications.
----
Yeah, I get ya. It is annoying that people don't address the specific topic at hand, but you have to realize that the specific brand (LG) of the TV isn't the issue - companies blatantly invading our privacy is. If we get too distracted on which company is doing it this week we'll look up in a few years and realize we're arguing over whether Samsung or LG is sending our records to the government instead of fighting for a blanket users-rights bill and it'll be too late, both will be.
For me personally, as an owner of an LG device who just yesterday had to accept new T&Cs for these ads, I'm very interested in the actual topic but I understand your point. That's why I'm theorizing about a function separating "general comments" from "topic-specific comments".
I've got a Samsung TV. Don't code that function to be too specific or we won't be able to share legal resources.
So far I've only got minor ads in the options screen and when switching inputs but if you guys roll over (or spend your efforts fighting other smart-device owners) then who knows.
So far I've only got minor ads in the options screen and when switching inputs but if you guys roll over (or spend your efforts fighting other smart-device owners) then who knows.
I imagine for many (most?) people, it's not that they want the "internet connected garbage"; it's that they want the big 4k TV and they're wiling to put up with the garbage that comes with it.
They also want streaming from their service of choice (thus "apps") and casting.
That's kind of it, though. Nobody asked for ads. Of course it makes the manufacturer money, but also severely degrades the UX. I wonder how much higher demand would need to get for them to offer a shit-free experience for a bit more money.
That's kind of it, though. Nobody asked for ads. Of course it makes the manufacturer money, but also severely degrades the UX. I wonder how much higher demand would need to get for them to offer a shit-free experience for a bit more money.
I imagine most people on HN would take the latter, but most people in the broader population aren't that bothered by ads, and most people would probably put up with ads rather than pay e.g. an extra $50 (especially if it's a side-to-side option, like an "ad-free upgrade").
The kindle is probably a good test case for this hypothesis. The base version has an option to show ads on the off screen for a nominally reduced purchase price. I wonder how many people choose ads.
I also wonder what kind of price sensitivity we are looking at when it comes to a 1,500 tv.
I also wonder what kind of price sensitivity we are looking at when it comes to a 1,500 tv.
The trouble is the people who will spend money to remove ads are exactly the people who the advertisers want to target.
I thought that's what I wanted too, but then I got the big 4k TV and in the end the "smart" features are really convenient. You don't have to control a separate box to watch something. You don't have to cast from your phone. You don't have issues with an Apple TV show not casting to a Chromecast. You just click on it with the TV remote.
And if you think you'll put up with it just to avoid connecting the TV, your family members won't.
So I just blocked the ads via DNS. So far so good.
And if you think you'll put up with it just to avoid connecting the TV, your family members won't.
So I just blocked the ads via DNS. So far so good.
Just don't connect it to WiFi. Problem solved.
I have a Mac mini serving content to the (not dumb, but deaf, dumb and blind) TV.
I have a Mac mini serving content to the (not dumb, but deaf, dumb and blind) TV.
I heard rumor (that sounded believable enough to me) that the content-detection part of "smart TVs" (i.e. they sample pixels in each frame to figure out what show you're watching) is valuable enough that the software will try any unsecured wifi network in the area to phone home. On hearing that, I immediately password-protected my guest network that had previously been open (I live in the boonies),
Internet of "Things" indeed. John Carpenter, eat your heart out.
Internet of "Things" indeed. John Carpenter, eat your heart out.
None of my TVs are connected to the Wifi... or at least that's how it used to be.
One of my TVs, a Samsung, will pop up a huge window complaining it doesn't have internet access, and it will keep it on screen until it gets internet access, which happens fairly quickly after my wife starts complaining. Ironically the thing it complains about is wanting to update it's antivirus, which is only needed because it is connected to the internet.
I will vote (and have) with my vallet next time, and that includes never buying Samsung again. I will also "try it out" in the shop before buying another brand.
One of my TVs, a Samsung, will pop up a huge window complaining it doesn't have internet access, and it will keep it on screen until it gets internet access, which happens fairly quickly after my wife starts complaining. Ironically the thing it complains about is wanting to update it's antivirus, which is only needed because it is connected to the internet.
I will vote (and have) with my vallet next time, and that includes never buying Samsung again. I will also "try it out" in the shop before buying another brand.
Some TVs will actively try and connect to any open wifi they can see without your consent or intervention. And wait until 5G is cheap enough so that any device can embed an always on cellular connection.
Imagine a compromised TV acting as a bot: perhaps committing wire fraud over an open WiFi hotspot.
Imagine the FBI knocking on your door.
Brave new world.
Imagine the FBI knocking on your door.
Brave new world.
> Just don't connect it to WiFi. Problem solved.
This may work until 5g (or a successor) rolls around and becomes cheap enough for iot devices to just embed a cell, so as to provide "a seamless experience" and to jam ads down our throats come hell or high water.
This may work until 5g (or a successor) rolls around and becomes cheap enough for iot devices to just embed a cell, so as to provide "a seamless experience" and to jam ads down our throats come hell or high water.
At that point there won’t be a TV in our home. I simply won’t tolerate it on principle.
A bit of an aside but this T-Mobile thing too is really pissing me off. I’m fine with “if you don’t pay, you have to view ads”, but if I’m paying and still getting ads/tracking - not happy.
We need legislation and different technology options to capture this.
On the TV front - an enterprising young startup could make really nice looking TVs with guaranteed no ads and probably sell for at least double the price.
A bit of an aside but this T-Mobile thing too is really pissing me off. I’m fine with “if you don’t pay, you have to view ads”, but if I’m paying and still getting ads/tracking - not happy.
We need legislation and different technology options to capture this.
On the TV front - an enterprising young startup could make really nice looking TVs with guaranteed no ads and probably sell for at least double the price.
Maybe I'll look into "presentation displays" for my next "tv". I use an appletv and external audio anyway -- the "tv" is just for display only.
That’s what I do. Apple TV + Sony Bravia TV that has never been connected to the Internet, and external speakers. I was looking at others like Samsung but they came with this external piece for the TV (like a receiver type thing?) and I’m just like - I want this thing to just display video and output audio, not do all this other stuff.
Perhaps we’ll figure out how to piggyback off that connection to get free internet.
I recently bought a roku tv and this wasn’t an option, I had to setup an account just to activate it before I could use it.
> Am I ever tempted to get a bigger, higher-def, TV? Sure, but then I remember that they're all "smart" and realize I don't actually have a problem with how I'm watching TV now.
If you ever are tempted, there are still a few good dumb TVs out there. Admittedly they get less, so vote with your wallet!
> I don't want smart anything in my house. My lights are hardwired to a switch on the wall. My washer and drier need me to turn dials and push buttons and go ding when they're done. My fridge has no microprocessor in it.
I would update that to: "I don't want smart anything in my house [that isn't fully open source]." Obviously this is not great for the average person, but at least for a programmer I can review, test and improve these devices.
One thing I will never have in my home that is closed source is a camera or microphone. I want to know _exactly_ how this data is used and where it goes.
If you ever are tempted, there are still a few good dumb TVs out there. Admittedly they get less, so vote with your wallet!
> I don't want smart anything in my house. My lights are hardwired to a switch on the wall. My washer and drier need me to turn dials and push buttons and go ding when they're done. My fridge has no microprocessor in it.
I would update that to: "I don't want smart anything in my house [that isn't fully open source]." Obviously this is not great for the average person, but at least for a programmer I can review, test and improve these devices.
One thing I will never have in my home that is closed source is a camera or microphone. I want to know _exactly_ how this data is used and where it goes.
[deleted]
> Obviously this is not great for the average person, but at least for a programmer I can review, test and improve these devices.
Please God no. The last thing I want to do after coming home from work is the same shit I was doing at work. I like the simplicity of shit just acting as expected.
Please God no. The last thing I want to do after coming home from work is the same shit I was doing at work. I like the simplicity of shit just acting as expected.
> Please God no. The last thing I want to do after coming home from work is the same shit I was doing at work. I like the simplicity of shit just acting as expected.
I understand, but a side project feels different. I do it because I want to, not because I need to.
I understand, but a side project feels different. I do it because I want to, not because I need to.
curious if that also applies to your phone
I use a 5k monitor hooked up to a Linux desktop that I built. Works great, and all the components are dumb. The day they bake ads into all computer monitors is the day I move off grid and start taking permaculture farming seriously.
This is my approach as well. The UX isn't as good as pure-TV apps. I specifically have to use the screen zoom functionality when trying to select what to watch from the couch. But after the selection process, it works great.
I have a lot of "smart" devices and they aren't connected to the internet. Home assistant and Zigbee2mqtt is amazing and it's all local. The only internet "smart" devices I have are a ecobee thermostat and a water monitoring system, both are in their own VLAN with only access to the internet. My thermostat can be controlled manually if internet is out.
I own a LG 4K OLED TV, I put it in the same VLAN add above and block all requests to the internet. Instead I use an nvidia shield for streaming tv and movies.
I own a LG 4K OLED TV, I put it in the same VLAN add above and block all requests to the internet. Instead I use an nvidia shield for streaming tv and movies.
I think only a small (but substantial) number of people actually want home based Smart/IoT products. And I think there's the extra push we see here to advertise to them because they're big trender spenders. Inshallah this article is part of a push-back that will encourage some TV companies to take a step back and get a little less intrusive on their customers.
One of the biggest IoT markets is large corporations with large workforces they would like to manage. A lattice of job-relevant IoT devices give them an automated layer to monitor and control. It lets them enhance safety, productivity, communication and motivation to their own likings. IE to their own profits. Usually at any personal expense or detriment on the part of their work force they can reasonably expect to get away with.
One of the biggest IoT markets is large corporations with large workforces they would like to manage. A lattice of job-relevant IoT devices give them an automated layer to monitor and control. It lets them enhance safety, productivity, communication and motivation to their own likings. IE to their own profits. Usually at any personal expense or detriment on the part of their work force they can reasonably expect to get away with.
Just use an Apple TV and don’t connect your smart tv to the internet. Stream everything through apps on Apple TV or cast it with airplay.
Which works until TV manufacturers make their TVs wardrive and find a neighbor's wifi, or build cellular modems into 'em.
Then you open the back of the TV, find the WiFi antenna, and clip it or scratch it off the PCB. :-)
Heh, until they TV will be in an error state or something after you do this....
The solution will be someone building an upscale TV with no ads and no BS. TVs are just too cheap to not go down the adware path hardcore.
The solution will be someone building an upscale TV with no ads and no BS. TVs are just too cheap to not go down the adware path hardcore.
Exactly what I do and I love it. The AppleTV Plex app was a game changer.
This is my plan when I eventually don't have a choice and need to replace my TV. But I am also worried: we've gotten to a point where manufacturers ship products with a known backlog of bugs and plan to fix them with software updates.
There is usually a path to upgrade without internet access. You usually get the firmware from the manufacturer website, put it on a usb stick, plug it into the tv and it picks up the upgrade from there.
Enable WiFI, Update, disable WiFi.
(May have to change your WiFi password as well.)
(May have to change your WiFi password as well.)
If you do some research and find a reasonably engineered TV, the inclusion of "smart" functionality doesn't necessarily detract from the device's utility. About 5 years ago I bought a 55" 4K TV based purely on its performance as a PC monitor. It happened to be an Android TV. After moving, I stopped using it as a monitor and started using it as a TV.
It's been a mostly positive experience. It even received an update within the last year. The update exchanged some old bugs for some new bugs, but for the most part it turns on and streams videos without much fuss. It's the first TV I've owned that correctly sequences my audio receiver's power over HDMI, and successfully passes through the TV remote's playback controls to the blu-ray player.
The most frustrating thing about it is that there's apparently a defect in its hardware accelerated video decoder. When Netflix came out with their fancier compression codecs last year, 4k shows started completely glitching out. Folk were complaining about it on reddit for months. Luckily I have a friend who works at Netflix who was able to start busting some skulls and get it patched over. For now...
I figure I've got at least another year or two before the built-in Android functionality is obsolete to the point of being inconvenient, or the streaming apps stop coping with the buggy video decoder. Since the TV works pretty well as a monitor, though, I should be able to just hook up a more modern external Android TV device and keep going with a roughly similar experience. I'm hopeful that it will even continue to seamlessly power on and off.
My other TV is a "dumb" 1080p Samsung plasma screen I bought second hand in 2010 from a particularly sketchy dude on Craigslist. It's still going strong, other than some occasional power supply buzzing and perhaps a bit of phosphor fade. It's travelled across the country and even survived a bachelor party camping trip. Honestly though, it's more of a pain to use than the Android TV, even as a dumb monitor.
It's been a mostly positive experience. It even received an update within the last year. The update exchanged some old bugs for some new bugs, but for the most part it turns on and streams videos without much fuss. It's the first TV I've owned that correctly sequences my audio receiver's power over HDMI, and successfully passes through the TV remote's playback controls to the blu-ray player.
The most frustrating thing about it is that there's apparently a defect in its hardware accelerated video decoder. When Netflix came out with their fancier compression codecs last year, 4k shows started completely glitching out. Folk were complaining about it on reddit for months. Luckily I have a friend who works at Netflix who was able to start busting some skulls and get it patched over. For now...
I figure I've got at least another year or two before the built-in Android functionality is obsolete to the point of being inconvenient, or the streaming apps stop coping with the buggy video decoder. Since the TV works pretty well as a monitor, though, I should be able to just hook up a more modern external Android TV device and keep going with a roughly similar experience. I'm hopeful that it will even continue to seamlessly power on and off.
My other TV is a "dumb" 1080p Samsung plasma screen I bought second hand in 2010 from a particularly sketchy dude on Craigslist. It's still going strong, other than some occasional power supply buzzing and perhaps a bit of phosphor fade. It's travelled across the country and even survived a bachelor party camping trip. Honestly though, it's more of a pain to use than the Android TV, even as a dumb monitor.
Being able to adjust the colour temperature and hue of my house lights is nice, so is doing it by speaking to my watch or speaker.
Turning all the lights out when I'm finally comfy in bed is nice. Turning the string of Christmas lights on the lanai on, which don't have a switch indoors or anywhere near the door, is nice.
Being able to ask for an album or genre to play and having it happen: nice! Having a certain light turn on at sunset: nice.
None of these things were broken before, but they weren't as nice. It isn't garbage.
Although having it reset during a 3 am power outage, resulting in lights turning on in my formerly dark bedroom: not as nice! Still a few bugs in the system...
Turning all the lights out when I'm finally comfy in bed is nice. Turning the string of Christmas lights on the lanai on, which don't have a switch indoors or anywhere near the door, is nice.
Being able to ask for an album or genre to play and having it happen: nice! Having a certain light turn on at sunset: nice.
None of these things were broken before, but they weren't as nice. It isn't garbage.
Although having it reset during a 3 am power outage, resulting in lights turning on in my formerly dark bedroom: not as nice! Still a few bugs in the system...
Scheduling my thermostat, smart outlets, and sprinklers works much better via a computer. Dial lamp timers suck, and programming a complex schedule via four push buttons and an eight-segment display is miserable. (I would not mind using bluetooth instead of wifi, but wifi is more widely used)
Network monitoring allows my solar array to be remotely monitored for faults & diagnosed. Network access allows my sprinkler controller to track the weather for more accurate water usage modeling...
Ordinary light switches and light bulbs are great. But some things stand to benefit from smarts.
Network monitoring allows my solar array to be remotely monitored for faults & diagnosed. Network access allows my sprinkler controller to track the weather for more accurate water usage modeling...
Ordinary light switches and light bulbs are great. But some things stand to benefit from smarts.
I bought a 4K Sony this year and it’s been an entirely simple experience. I didn’t connect it to my wifi, so I see nothing except a gray textured screen. Works great.
Counterpoint. I have a 4yr old 4K Sony TV, it was a higher end model, and it's horrible. It runs Android and is apparently underpowered. When I turn it on (from standby, not from zero power), it can often take 30-60 seconds to turn on...AFAIK it's recovering from garbage collection. That doesn't happen every time. Just tried now and it took 4 seconds to turn on and 10 more seconds until it would actually respond to button presses on the remote.
The screen is (was) covered in ads for TV programs and movies. Fortunately I was able to turn all that off but the home screen is designed around ads so without them it looks clunky. (unlike say Apple TV which just shows the apps)
A few times in the last 4 years it has crashed and rebooted in the middle of watching something (that process takes 1-2 mins? Just timed a reboot, 1 min 20 seconds but crashes take longer)
I hoping to get something dumb next time I get a TV. Unfortunately dumb TV generally seem more expensive. Like I have to by a business display TV and are often missing features (like no lag, no interpolation modes)
The screen is (was) covered in ads for TV programs and movies. Fortunately I was able to turn all that off but the home screen is designed around ads so without them it looks clunky. (unlike say Apple TV which just shows the apps)
A few times in the last 4 years it has crashed and rebooted in the middle of watching something (that process takes 1-2 mins? Just timed a reboot, 1 min 20 seconds but crashes take longer)
I hoping to get something dumb next time I get a TV. Unfortunately dumb TV generally seem more expensive. Like I have to by a business display TV and are often missing features (like no lag, no interpolation modes)
This is why I still use a 480i CRT from the early 1980s.
Shelves of VHS haven't broke and don't need fixing!
Shelves of VHS haven't broke and don't need fixing!
I feel for you. I too am sticking to an obsolete unsmart TV. In 2016 I had to change my home heaters, and nowadays they're all "smart". The app that's supposedly used to control them never could find one of them; instead of a temperature knob and an on/off switch, you constantly need to dive into cascading menus; and of course I'm confident that this smart sh*t will be the reason why they'll fail in the future, for instance when the screen will fail and make the heater unusable.
I recently got a 55 inch 4k TV after having a 40 inch HD TV for some years.
I regret having friends suffer through that quality to watch things like the last season of Game of Thrones just because I liked hosting. I had friends with better TVs that didn't say anything because I liked having people over and they didn't.
I've never connected it to the internet and glad I haven't but there really is a night and day difference in quality. I've slowly upgraded my parent's TVs and they have really appreciated it.
I regret having friends suffer through that quality to watch things like the last season of Game of Thrones just because I liked hosting. I had friends with better TVs that didn't say anything because I liked having people over and they didn't.
I've never connected it to the internet and glad I haven't but there really is a night and day difference in quality. I've slowly upgraded my parent's TVs and they have really appreciated it.
My washer sends a message to my phone when I leave the laundry in it. Has saved me countless loads of mildewy smelly wet clothes in the morning.
I set a timer on my phone. No internet required. Never missed it yet
Yes, but that’s one of many things that I don’t have to worry about. You can do you, I prefer the connected home. If configured correctly it’s like having a very basic butler.
I don't consider setting a timer something I worry about and given my experience with smart home devices the inverse is true for them.
> My lights are hardwired to a switch on the wall.
Oh you mean like an ethernet cable?
Oh you mean like an ethernet cable?
It's been said many times here over the past few years, and it'll get said a lot right here today, but rule of thumb: never enable WiFi on a TV except maybe temporarily to do an update or something. And even then only if it's absolutely necessary. Get a Roku or an Apple TV or a game console or whatever you want for watching streaming services. Never use what's built in to the TV, not just for privacy reasons but because it always seems to be a terrible experience compared to running Hulu, Netflix, etc. on anything else. But for privacy too- the TV companies were incredibly egregious about privacy years ago and AFAICT it's only gotten worse since then.
The "problem" with the LG OLEDs (I own the 77C9) is that webOS is actually quite good, the interface + processor snappy, and the magic remote quite good for effortlessly switching between your favorite streaming services or Plex. Even with a Harmony remote, it takes 1-2 button clicks to get wherever I need to be.
By contrast, the cheaper Fire and Chromecast devices have always felt much more sluggish. I really want an nVidia Shield but I'm not dropping $200 on outdated hardware when I already have a fantastic HTPC hooked up to my TV.
Fwiw, I've managed to not accept a bunch of license agreements on my C9 and have avoided anything too egregious. It is a glorious panel though and I hope they don't monetize it to the point that you can't use it without an active internet connection.
By contrast, the cheaper Fire and Chromecast devices have always felt much more sluggish. I really want an nVidia Shield but I'm not dropping $200 on outdated hardware when I already have a fantastic HTPC hooked up to my TV.
Fwiw, I've managed to not accept a bunch of license agreements on my C9 and have avoided anything too egregious. It is a glorious panel though and I hope they don't monetize it to the point that you can't use it without an active internet connection.
> The "problem" with the LG OLEDs is that webOS is actually quite good
You might change your mind once you see what LG have done with webOS 6.0. [1]
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22223767/lg-webos-6-tv-so...
> LG says "the new home screen provides faster access to the most frequently used apps and streamlines content discovery with the ability to receive recommendations based on the user’s preferences and viewing history". You can see a big "sponsored" slot in the top left there, so yes, you can expect some ads and paid placement recommendations on the home screen of your future LG TV.
You might change your mind once you see what LG have done with webOS 6.0. [1]
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22223767/lg-webos-6-tv-so...
> LG says "the new home screen provides faster access to the most frequently used apps and streamlines content discovery with the ability to receive recommendations based on the user’s preferences and viewing history". You can see a big "sponsored" slot in the top left there, so yes, you can expect some ads and paid placement recommendations on the home screen of your future LG TV.
Ouch, yeah that does look horrible. Fortunately my C9 won't be getting that upgrade. I'd still buy an OLED TV if I had to buy a TV now, and it would likely be LG, but I'd just budget spending the extra dollars on a Shield or some other streaming box that is ad free and as privacy friendly as possible.
“
As a user
I want to see relevant partner content on the home screen
So that my content is more targeted to my needs
”
As a user
I want to see relevant partner content on the home screen
So that my content is more targeted to my needs
”
Hear hear. As a quite satisfied owner of 2 LG OLEDs, I agree with your assessment. It's a shame that no other company makes OLEDs. Panasonic just started making then using LG frames, but I don't know if they are any better in the privacy department.
I own a Panasonic OLED. Never seen an ad on it. It does ping some analytics hostname regularly even with data collection disabled but I’ve klined this in the firewall and it doesn’t try anything else. I didn’t try to see what’s the payload to that data collection domain so maybe it was empty to begin with.
Samsung are switching over to QD-OLED in the near future (next year?)
It's a combination of the Quantum Dot technology from QLED and OLED.
It's a combination of the Quantum Dot technology from QLED and OLED.
Samsung makes OEDs no?
Samsung doesn't, actually. They now only make "QLED" TV's and LED TV's.
However, a lot of other brands sell OLED TV sets including Sony, Vizio, TCL, etc. Maybe they're referring to manufacturing the physical OLED screen? I don't know what impact that would have on privacy concerns, though.
However, a lot of other brands sell OLED TV sets including Sony, Vizio, TCL, etc. Maybe they're referring to manufacturing the physical OLED screen? I don't know what impact that would have on privacy concerns, though.
A Roku is a much much better experience than Fire or Chromecast
I definitely would support Roku over Google/Amazon. I like having another player in the market that has a "neutral" platform and large support across different streaming apps due to the size of their userbase.
I am just skeptical of something like the Stick+ being snappier or as snappy as the C9 processor. And if I'm looking at dropping $100 on the Roku Ultra, again, I'd rather wait on a Shield update to HDMI 2.1 and then pick that up for $200 in a year or so.
I am just skeptical of something like the Stick+ being snappier or as snappy as the C9 processor. And if I'm looking at dropping $100 on the Roku Ultra, again, I'd rather wait on a Shield update to HDMI 2.1 and then pick that up for $200 in a year or so.
I preferred roku when the Amazon vs google fight meant I couldn't use Youtube TV. I stocked up on rokus in the house figuring they were the safe bet. And then for months there was this stalemate between WB and Roku where I couldn't access HBO Max. Seems like I can't win. I bought an Apple TV and I've been pretty happy with it so far.
Don’t forget — for a while you couldn’t get Amazon Prime video on an Apple TV. I too went all in on Apple TV and I’ve been able to largely avoid the ad issues in the article. But it isn’t like it was completely immune to these shenanigans, especially in the beginning.
And far worse in privacy.
I’m still seeing loading screens on my Streambar and newer Roku equipment. Not a major problem but it’d be nice if they were snappier.
Roku lost me when it couldn't watch HBO. How can I trust the service now?
[deleted]
Roku always had HBO, but didn't have HBOMax in the beginning of the service.
Amazon Sidewalk is an effort to bypass your workaround of preventing network access to TV manufacturers' ad networks.
Hopefully it fails like DIVX, but given there are 4G radios in most cars today, it probably will succeed.
Soon appliances and other IoT will no longer be reliant on your say-so on what data it collects and when...
Hopefully it fails like DIVX, but given there are 4G radios in most cars today, it probably will succeed.
Soon appliances and other IoT will no longer be reliant on your say-so on what data it collects and when...
My TCL bootloops if you disconnect it from the network for more than a week or two. Support is willing to help! First step: connect it to the internet.
Some TVs use the network via your HDMI connected devices (ex: the roku or whatever stick) or do searches for open wifi networks that you may have no control over to get their sweet, sweet surveillance fix.
Do you have evidence for that though?
I've heard that repeated but never seen anyone actually test it and it would be shocking if true.
It seems more likely that in these cases, a family member or friend connected to the WiFi instead, without the owner being aware.
And if it were actually true and verifiable then surely journalists would have written articles on it by now.
I've heard that repeated but never seen anyone actually test it and it would be shocking if true.
It seems more likely that in these cases, a family member or friend connected to the WiFi instead, without the owner being aware.
And if it were actually true and verifiable then surely journalists would have written articles on it by now.
Ethernet over HDMI is definitely a real thing. Someone else would have to comment on whether it's enabled by default on various devices, and which devices are capable of acting as a gateway vs client.
I don't own a smart TV and I, too, am skeptical that your grandparent is correct that TV makers are surreptitiously using other devices as network bridges with HDMI, etc.
BUT ... since we're talking about it ... are the network lines on HDMI reserved for that purpose such that you could create an "HDMI condom" ? I have USB condoms that I use to charge phones with, etc., and wonder if the same concept works with HDMI ...
BUT ... since we're talking about it ... are the network lines on HDMI reserved for that purpose such that you could create an "HDMI condom" ? I have USB condoms that I use to charge phones with, etc., and wonder if the same concept works with HDMI ...
It looks like HDMI uses separate pins from the video signal for Ethernet and Audio Return Channel. I originally thought it was using a shared packetized bus for HEC, but it's actually kind of clever -- differential mode signal on those two pins is HEC, common mode signal is ARC.
HEAC utilizes two lines from the connector: the previously unused Reserved pin (called HEAC+) and the Hot Plug Detect pin (called HEAC−).
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_Ethernet_and_Audio_R...
So if you don't need ARC, it should be possible to make a simple filter that blocks both HEC and ARC. Older HDMI cables that might not connect the Reserved pin might also block HEC+ARC. And it also seems like you can get ARC-only by disconnecting the Reserved pin.
I'd guess HEC is most commonly going to be used in situations where you'd also want ARC -- to provide network access from an A/V receiver to a smart TV, and then get the audio back into the receiver.
HEAC utilizes two lines from the connector: the previously unused Reserved pin (called HEAC+) and the Hot Plug Detect pin (called HEAC−).
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_Ethernet_and_Audio_R...
So if you don't need ARC, it should be possible to make a simple filter that blocks both HEC and ARC. Older HDMI cables that might not connect the Reserved pin might also block HEC+ARC. And it also seems like you can get ARC-only by disconnecting the Reserved pin.
I'd guess HEC is most commonly going to be used in situations where you'd also want ARC -- to provide network access from an A/V receiver to a smart TV, and then get the audio back into the receiver.
HDMI Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC) uses the two Ethernet pins.
It's a spec, I've yet to see a device that implements the spec.
[deleted]
Even so, the TV somehow configuring the connected device to bridge its network adapters is a bit of a stretch.
That sounds quite shocking. Basically the tv manufacturer is invading your home. I don't understand how that can be legal. Maybe it's just illegal on such a tiny scale, nobody cases.
"To use this TV, agree or it's a paperweight"
Seems like a clear violation of the CFAA.
Soon they will come with LTE modems, like cars do.
I will put my goddamn tv room in a faraday cage if it comes to that.
I hope there’s some way to blast it with localized radio noise to block the 5G for just that purpose.
Really just need to make the dark patterns illegal or costly though.
Really just need to make the dark patterns illegal or costly though.
Disconnect, cut, or desolder the antenna.
Samsung is using bluetooth for their new remotes. Desolder the antenna and you cannot use the TV anymore.
They probably use different antennas though so you could cut the cellular modems antenna connection without impacting the remotes.
Different antenna?
Smartphones only have one antenna as far as I know. Why should it be different for TVs?
The Xbox One S for example has two separate Mediatek radios. One for networking the other for the controller.
There's another option: Buy and hook up a dumb hdmi converter to the panel. Taobao has these (low latency, niche gamer market)
There's another option: Buy and hook up a dumb hdmi converter to the panel. Taobao has these (low latency, niche gamer market)
The Xbox is doing it that way because they need the lowest input latency possible for the controllers. Blocking the antenna for network operations delays the user input. A TV doesn't have that problem and certainly won't have two antennas.
We are effectively helpless against those tinier and tinier SoCs and the only option is not to buy.
We are effectively helpless against those tinier and tinier SoCs and the only option is not to buy.
Smartphones typically have four (or more) antennas. 2 for cell (main and diversity), one for wifi/bluetooth, one for GPS. Some phones compress that down to 2, but lose signal strength by doing so.
[deleted]
Actually, it's 5G, which is like wifi for advertisers/data capitalists.
I don't think this comment deserves downvotes. The arrival of 5G, and with it devices that can make their own external wireless connections, is a significant risk to consumer privacy. How it is used and regulated over the next few years could establish what is considered an acceptable standard for privacy for a long time afterwards, and it's clear which way a lot of device manufacturers are going to be pushing.
Affordable, embeddable 2g modems have existed for many years and have perpetrated some of the problems you're concerned about.
5G offers greater throughput but I don't think that tracking applications are only now enabled by 5G. Most 5G deployments are small cells in ultra dense areas and most snooping manufacturers would prefer the range of LTE.
5G offers greater throughput but I don't think that tracking applications are only now enabled by 5G. Most 5G deployments are small cells in ultra dense areas and most snooping manufacturers would prefer the range of LTE.
I'm more concerned about the near-to-mid future in this respect.
It is still quite unusual to have embedded LTE modems and the like in consumer devices. Outside of a few relatively expensive product types, like cars and of course phones/tablets, I think most people would be surprised to find independent wireless connectivity in their consumer products and a lot of people would probably ask why it was there if it had no obvious purpose.
With 5G looking like it's going to be mainstream in most developed countries within a few years and promoted extensively as a technology for connected devices and applications using inter-device communication, it feels much more credible that both the infrastructure networks and the component manufacturers involved could offer pricing models that make incorporating connectivity cheaply into any device you feel like a realistic outcome.
My concern is that we drift into a situation where including local network communications, possibly sensors, and independent remote communications all in the same devices becomes routine, without anything close to adequate protections for security and privacy to go with it. Given that governments around here (UK/Europe in my case) are only just beginning to act on issues like right to repair and online privacy and have barely touched numerous other issues raised by modern tech and its capabilities, I'm extremely wary of a relatively uninformed public accepting a lot of hostile measures because they either don't know any better or (possibly correctly) assume that by that point there is nothing they can do about those measures even if they don't like them.
It is still quite unusual to have embedded LTE modems and the like in consumer devices. Outside of a few relatively expensive product types, like cars and of course phones/tablets, I think most people would be surprised to find independent wireless connectivity in their consumer products and a lot of people would probably ask why it was there if it had no obvious purpose.
With 5G looking like it's going to be mainstream in most developed countries within a few years and promoted extensively as a technology for connected devices and applications using inter-device communication, it feels much more credible that both the infrastructure networks and the component manufacturers involved could offer pricing models that make incorporating connectivity cheaply into any device you feel like a realistic outcome.
My concern is that we drift into a situation where including local network communications, possibly sensors, and independent remote communications all in the same devices becomes routine, without anything close to adequate protections for security and privacy to go with it. Given that governments around here (UK/Europe in my case) are only just beginning to act on issues like right to repair and online privacy and have barely touched numerous other issues raised by modern tech and its capabilities, I'm extremely wary of a relatively uninformed public accepting a lot of hostile measures because they either don't know any better or (possibly correctly) assume that by that point there is nothing they can do about those measures even if they don't like them.
I believe the point was that the types of ads or surveillance we are talking about here doesn’t strictly require 5G. It can work perfectly well with existing 4G/LTE networks and infrastructure. You could send a pretty good signature of what someone is watching by SMS if you really wanted to. The components to add that connectivity to consumer electronics is not that difficult or expensive to add from a BOM perspective.
I think the reason why we haven’t seen more of this vector being used isn’t because it is technologically unfeasible, but rather that there are easier ways to get a device connected.
I think the reason why we haven’t seen more of this vector being used isn’t because it is technologically unfeasible, but rather that there are easier ways to get a device connected.
I think the reason why we haven’t seen more of this vector being used isn’t because it is technologically unfeasible, but rather that there are easier ways to get a device connected.
This is true, but it's also something that right now consumers can at least do something about if they are well-informed, as noted by many commenters here referring to not allowing "smart" devices access to home WiFi networks and the like. I think the danger with 5G, and I'm including the surrounding culture and marketing under that umbrella here, is that the channel for remote communication becomes independent and so potentially impossible for consumers to detect, monitor or prevent, even if they are otherwise relatively well-informed about the technology.
This is true, but it's also something that right now consumers can at least do something about if they are well-informed, as noted by many commenters here referring to not allowing "smart" devices access to home WiFi networks and the like. I think the danger with 5G, and I'm including the surrounding culture and marketing under that umbrella here, is that the channel for remote communication becomes independent and so potentially impossible for consumers to detect, monitor or prevent, even if they are otherwise relatively well-informed about the technology.
This is why I want to push for a right to 'networking off switch'. It's so simple on it's face and so hard to argue against, and so cheap to implement, so it's a good initial legislative baby step.
Hardware switches are a step in the right direction, but not enough. Some devices need network access to do their jobs, and there has to be a way to deter abusing that access for purposes that are user-hostile at the same time.
I doubt device manufacturers consider 5G to be a prerequisite for snarfing tracking data out of said devices and vomiting ads into them.
Which TV can access the network via a roku?
Any device that is connected via a hdmi with ethernet, If both devices supports it.
And then the endpoint has to also provide a NAT, DHCP server etc? Or at least a bridge/ARP proxy? And it has to know that it should be configured as an upstream device, providing those services and not depending on them.
Can anyone cite a user manual or something official that talks about this feature?
Can anyone cite a user manual or something official that talks about this feature?
Which is none of them, right? So this is a lie?
I thought this was the case! A commenter on a previous thread said this was really unlikely [0], but I really believe it happens. Not sure how to prove it though.
[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20205969
[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20205969
Why do you believe it happens in the absence of evidence?
Some TVs allow firmware updates via USB thumb drive, which I think is a feature worth selecting for. This allowed me to get some bug fixes for my Sony Bravia TV that I would’ve had to live without had updates been online-only.
Additionally, there are some models that come with nearly-stock Android TV that are easy to remove creepware from (just plug into laptop and remove with ADB) should one feel inclined to use built-in smarts.
Personally I’ve been using an Apple TV and it’s served me well.
Additionally, there are some models that come with nearly-stock Android TV that are easy to remove creepware from (just plug into laptop and remove with ADB) should one feel inclined to use built-in smarts.
Personally I’ve been using an Apple TV and it’s served me well.
I'd be willing to bet that all modern TVs support local offline firmware updates.
Whether the actual firmware update binaries are readily available to non-commercial end users is another matter entirely (and of course equally important!).
In the case of my recent-ish LG model, they are, and offline USB updates work fine.
Whether the actual firmware update binaries are readily available to non-commercial end users is another matter entirely (and of course equally important!).
In the case of my recent-ish LG model, they are, and offline USB updates work fine.
Buy a Spectre TV. Sane price. Very good picture quality. No stupid "smarts". https://www.sceptre.com/
Doesn't Roku send the same data? Don't Apple TV apps track what we watch in each app, just like a Kindle tracks what we read and how fast you read it?
Is the goal here to avoid any metrics being transmitted? Is it to avoid aggregate metrics across all of our apps and devices being transmitted?
It seems like the original objection in the article is that it's the advertising that's the problem, not the data collection and metrics, and the suggestion of Roku and Apple TV seems a poor solution for two of those three problems.
Is the goal here to avoid any metrics being transmitted? Is it to avoid aggregate metrics across all of our apps and devices being transmitted?
It seems like the original objection in the article is that it's the advertising that's the problem, not the data collection and metrics, and the suggestion of Roku and Apple TV seems a poor solution for two of those three problems.
Our Sony with built in Android TV is quite nice. It’s a bit of a privacy hit but not too bad. Everything just works, including Android apps like Kodi. It’s hard wired with Ethernet... kinda requires when streaming ultra hi def over the LAN.
I don't know about the newest models but up until the XH series wifi was actually faster than ethernet. The SoC only supported 100MBit/s ethernet which isn't enough for high quality UHD content.
You know, I never checked. It’s a newer model. It has never struggled with 80 GiB movie files.
You can setup use NextDNS on Android TV to block ads and tracking.
Don't even buy a TV. Monitors are strictly better.
No its not. No one is selling 120 Hz OLED monitor, to the point that people are buying 48" LG CX 48 as a monitor which IMO is just too large for a monitor
I'm pretty sure Dell makes Alienware OLED gaming monitors up to 55" that support 120 Hz. They are more expensive than TVs though.
Hard to find these days.
Roku is not ad free.
https://advertising.roku.com/
>Get a Roku or an Apple TV...
Roku is the noisiest device on PiHole, constantly trying to phone home, Amazon Firestick is up there too.
Roku is the noisiest device on PiHole, constantly trying to phone home, Amazon Firestick is up there too.
> never enable WiFi on a TV except maybe temporarily to do an update or something
Why does a TV need a software update? If it can't show the output of HDMI out of the box, it's not fit for purpose and should be returned.
Why does a TV need a software update? If it can't show the output of HDMI out of the box, it's not fit for purpose and should be returned.
An issue that some manufacturers are foreseeing - some TVs, if you don't give them network access, will just start looking for open networks and find their own way out.
Do we have a proof of that? Sounds _very_ illegal.
Roku TV is no more invasive than the standalone boxes with the benefit of an integrated OTA guide.
At this stage, these threads are getting kind of boring, it's clear that almost all manufacturers are in a race to the bottom in terms of cost - and now the only way that they can compete on price is by bundling adverts into your internet connected set.
All talk of "voting with your wallet" doesn't work when there are literally no "smart" consumer sets that can compete on features and are without adverts.
If you really wish to have your smart TV connected to the internet - I've listed some of the adservers that you can block at : https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Smart_TV_Adverts - however this is also going to be a tiresome game, as manufacturers will just seek to find more creative ways to serve adverts.
The reality is though, if you want to avoid this behaviour - buy the set that has the screen that you want and only connect it to the internet if you wish to do a software update. Only software update if your set has a bug that the advertised firmware actually fixes, as newer updates tend to add more "features" - adverts, slower apps etc etc. Use something like and AppleTV or a Roku device connected via HDMI if you really need smart features - but be aware even the likes of Roku / Nvidia Shield / FireTV will at some point in the future also be serving you adverts.
I've also heard that some sets are trying to find open wifi networks - if you are really that worried, cut the traces on the wifi card inside the set and hope that manufacturers don't start to use ethernet over HDMI.
All talk of "voting with your wallet" doesn't work when there are literally no "smart" consumer sets that can compete on features and are without adverts.
If you really wish to have your smart TV connected to the internet - I've listed some of the adservers that you can block at : https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Smart_TV_Adverts - however this is also going to be a tiresome game, as manufacturers will just seek to find more creative ways to serve adverts.
The reality is though, if you want to avoid this behaviour - buy the set that has the screen that you want and only connect it to the internet if you wish to do a software update. Only software update if your set has a bug that the advertised firmware actually fixes, as newer updates tend to add more "features" - adverts, slower apps etc etc. Use something like and AppleTV or a Roku device connected via HDMI if you really need smart features - but be aware even the likes of Roku / Nvidia Shield / FireTV will at some point in the future also be serving you adverts.
I've also heard that some sets are trying to find open wifi networks - if you are really that worried, cut the traces on the wifi card inside the set and hope that manufacturers don't start to use ethernet over HDMI.
If one wishes to use the "smart" features without ads, so far DNS blocking still works.
The simplest solution is to set up https://nextdns.io with the lists for smart TVs. I've done it with a recent Samsung one and it works perfectly, without ads.
For sure if one day TVs use their own DNS, the solution would be to not connect them and not use their "smart" features. But until then, it works.
The simplest solution is to set up https://nextdns.io with the lists for smart TVs. I've done it with a recent Samsung one and it works perfectly, without ads.
For sure if one day TVs use their own DNS, the solution would be to not connect them and not use their "smart" features. But until then, it works.
I've never put a TV on my WiFi. That strikes me as an obviously bad idea. I guess people use the terrible built-in apps? It just seems like a series of poor choices to me. Crazy though that an expensive LG CX OLED would do that. I figured at least if you paid more for the TV it would show some tiny level of respect for the owner but clearly not.
I know the various streaming sticks people use instead show ads too probably if it isn't an Apple TV but at least it is somewhat quarantined. Pretty crazy how antagonistic things are getting.
I know the various streaming sticks people use instead show ads too probably if it isn't an Apple TV but at least it is somewhat quarantined. Pretty crazy how antagonistic things are getting.
Anecdata-ly - while I was rejigging my home network and media setup (which necessitated disconnecting our previous video-streaming device), my partner started using the Netflix that was built-in to our TV. It performed admirably, and was actually more performant than the equivalent app we'd been using on [Fire TV Stick/PS4 - I forget which] previously.
By all means, rail against anti-privacy, overuse of IoT, adware/spying, etc. - but don't weaken your argument by assuming poor quality of things that _aren't_. It's perfectly possible for an app to do a bad thing well (in this case - spyware _and_ serving up high-quality video).
By all means, rail against anti-privacy, overuse of IoT, adware/spying, etc. - but don't weaken your argument by assuming poor quality of things that _aren't_. It's perfectly possible for an app to do a bad thing well (in this case - spyware _and_ serving up high-quality video).
Yes, the LG Netflix app works as well as anything else I've used (and continues to work after opting out of the various agreements for adware and telemetry, for whatever that's worth). In fact, the LG "magic" motion-sensing remote is quite nice for streaming app UI navigation that's often hit-or-miss on platforms that lack a touch interface or pointing device.
With that said, I only connect my TV (which is also my computer display) to Wi-Fi when I'm actively using one of the built-in streaming apps (so infrequently, most recently when the new Expanse episodes dropped, because Amazon, unlike Netflix, doesn't support 4K streaming on PC or Mac).
With that said, I only connect my TV (which is also my computer display) to Wi-Fi when I'm actively using one of the built-in streaming apps (so infrequently, most recently when the new Expanse episodes dropped, because Amazon, unlike Netflix, doesn't support 4K streaming on PC or Mac).
The LG versions of all the apps I've used are much better because it allows for cursor control and I feel it more reliably leads to HDR and 4k content.
That's today. Who knows what is going to happen in 6 months.
Edit: there are a lot of people with other smart TVs that progressively got more and more broken applications.
Edit: there are a lot of people with other smart TVs that progressively got more and more broken applications.
It’s beneficial to use the built in apps on the OLEDs as they automatically play a screensaver when they notice content has been paused over a certain period of time. As well, no need to enable HDR etc for whatever device you are using instead of the built in apps.
I just now setup my LG CX to run through NextDNS to block any ads because of this. Took only about five minutes.
I just now setup my LG CX to run through NextDNS to block any ads because of this. Took only about five minutes.
IME, both Apple TV and Amazon Fire stick devices do this too.
This doesn't always work. Some devices use a hardcoded DNS IP. Like Chromecast. Luckily LG doesn't do this.
Just block anything going out on port 53 outside the network and keep a dns sever on the network. (useful to block known tls dns servers like cloudflares 1.1.1.1 as well)
That is sufficient for samsung from my experience. (it does try 8.8.8.8 on its own if my ad blocking server rejects requests)
It still doesn't know DNS-over-TLS but if I start seeing ads I'll disconnect it entirely.
That is sufficient for samsung from my experience. (it does try 8.8.8.8 on its own if my ad blocking server rejects requests)
It still doesn't know DNS-over-TLS but if I start seeing ads I'll disconnect it entirely.
The Apple TV app is horrendous on LG. No HBO Max as well. I agree it's way nicer to have native apps.
[deleted]
> I guess people use the terrible built-in apps?
At the end of the day yes. Especially, with older generations around.
Having a separate remote for volume (separate receiver) and TV is enough of a challenge. Having a 3rd creates all sorts of confusion.
At the end of the day yes. Especially, with older generations around.
Having a separate remote for volume (separate receiver) and TV is enough of a challenge. Having a 3rd creates all sorts of confusion.
My Apple TV remote controls the speakers via IR, and triggers the TV to turn on and switch inputs via the HDMI. My game consoles also do the latter. The only time I have to dig out the TV remote is when I'm using an old console or need to fiddle with the settings
My LG TV recently updated and gave me AirPlay 2 so it’s not all bad
Agree completely. To do an update, I change my wifi network name and password, do the update, then put the wifi network name and password back to the previous value.
Never ever leave the TV connected.
Never ever leave the TV connected.
Samsung forces you to use their built-in app. The HDMI is moved out to a "connect mini" accessory worth $200
The apps on my Hisense TVs are great (and yes I've used a Roku and an Apple TV).
It would strike me as a bad idea if I gave a tiny damn that LG know that I watch garbage on YouTube and Netflix. At some level, you’re ultimately giving your data to someone, so in my case, I use the built in apps on my entry level €300 LG TV. Works great, nice picture, 50” - and I don’t know if the ads are a US thing, as I’ve never seen one. Maybe it’s because I’ve never used it for TV, or perhaps because it sits behind double NAT, or maybe they just haven’t rolled out in this market (Portugal) yet - but honestly, I don’t mind being the product for an absolutely dirt cheap and very respectable for the money screen.
I thought the same and bought an Apple TV. That thing sucks.
Turns out, Roku is way better. With respect to "terrible built-in apps", Apple TV has plenty of those. Netflix, Twitch, sports apps, streaming apps, all way better and more usable on the Roku than the Apple TV. Even after all this time with Apple TV remote, the UX is terrible even if the remote is decent
Turns out, Roku is way better. With respect to "terrible built-in apps", Apple TV has plenty of those. Netflix, Twitch, sports apps, streaming apps, all way better and more usable on the Roku than the Apple TV. Even after all this time with Apple TV remote, the UX is terrible even if the remote is decent
Man, I completely feel the other way. I've played with Fire Sticks and Rokus and other devices, and they all seem like UX nightmares compared to the AppleTV platform.
That's super interesting.
Can you tell me this, no snark: how the hell do you fast forward or rewind on Apple TV?
Can you tell me this, no snark: how the hell do you fast forward or rewind on Apple TV?
You don't! Watch the whole movie, mate!
In any case, here's an article on how to do it:
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-fast-forward-on-apple...
(as a side note: isn't it sad that you had to ask this question? why isn't the button on the remote? or at least discoverable? or at the bare minimum part of an on-screen tutorial when you turn on Apple TV for the first time?)
In any case, here's an article on how to do it:
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-fast-forward-on-apple...
(as a side note: isn't it sad that you had to ask this question? why isn't the button on the remote? or at least discoverable? or at the bare minimum part of an on-screen tutorial when you turn on Apple TV for the first time?)
I own two of them, I know how it is supposed to be done and I _still_ struggle at times to do it reliably with the bundled remote. I recently discovered my TV's "crappy" IR remote can control the Apple TV, avoiding the touch pad altogether. It even supports extra buttons the normal remote doesn't have, such as a dedicated FFW key. I think I've seen this work via HDMI-CEC as well on mines.
> https://support.apple.com/guide/tv/use-other-remotes-atvb041...
> https://support.apple.com/guide/tv/use-other-remotes-atvb041...
Click the right edge of the touch area, advance 10 seconds. Click and hold the right edge, fast forward until you release. Left edge similar but rewind.
You can also click in the middle and then swipe left or right to move the slider.
You can also click in the middle and then swipe left or right to move the slider.
With the touchy part of the remote, on top?
Also, fwiw, UX isn't the only reason I prefer the ATV. E.g.:
- Doesn't Roku track usage for ads and whatnot, or is that just a rumor?
- There's also how well it integrates with everything else. When I go to a search screen, I can use my phone's keyboard to type. AppleMusic is right there, plus I can easily stream from my in-house library (which, admittedly, I almost never bother doing since signing up for Apple Music). I can throw my laptop screen on the TV if I want. Of course, all of this requires being in the Apple ecosystem, but I happen to be in that ecosystem.
Also, fwiw, UX isn't the only reason I prefer the ATV. E.g.:
- Doesn't Roku track usage for ads and whatnot, or is that just a rumor?
- There's also how well it integrates with everything else. When I go to a search screen, I can use my phone's keyboard to type. AppleMusic is right there, plus I can easily stream from my in-house library (which, admittedly, I almost never bother doing since signing up for Apple Music). I can throw my laptop screen on the TV if I want. Of course, all of this requires being in the Apple ecosystem, but I happen to be in that ecosystem.
>With the touchy part
Yeah, I get that, but like... What swipe gesture do I use? Maybe the apps I've used that on somehow implemented it badly but I completely fail to scrub thru
> Roku track usage for ads
Probably true, I'm a bit defeated in this domain
> Apple integrations
Yeah, I do like to stream my laptop to my TV sometimes, but once I realized that Roku natively could handle Twitch, sports apps, and streaming apps I have almost never had a use case for doing that
Yeah, I get that, but like... What swipe gesture do I use? Maybe the apps I've used that on somehow implemented it badly but I completely fail to scrub thru
> Roku track usage for ads
Probably true, I'm a bit defeated in this domain
> Apple integrations
Yeah, I do like to stream my laptop to my TV sometimes, but once I realized that Roku natively could handle Twitch, sports apps, and streaming apps I have almost never had a use case for doing that
You pause it, and then you can scroll left and right and then unpause
You can also click while your finger is on one side or the other to skip a few seconds forward or back (this gesture is a little finicky)
The current Apple TV remote definitely has some downsides - I'm not a huge fan of it - but I still love my Apple TV overall compared to all other options
You can also click while your finger is on one side or the other to skip a few seconds forward or back (this gesture is a little finicky)
The current Apple TV remote definitely has some downsides - I'm not a huge fan of it - but I still love my Apple TV overall compared to all other options
Click and then swipe right, IIRC.
I suspect you make it learn a 3rd party remote with those buttons.
Genuine question: what's better about the Netflix app? Haven't used Roku. Seems decent on Apple TV.
What really sucks on Apple TV is the YouTube app. It may be Google's single least competent publicly available software engineering.
edited to clarify question
What really sucks on Apple TV is the YouTube app. It may be Google's single least competent publicly available software engineering.
edited to clarify question
> what's better about the Netflix app
I can use it with the same remote as I turn my TV on with.
In all honesty, these things all are just feature parity, they perform the exact same between the two devices, but I really feel like the UX of fast-forwarding, rewinding etc is completely MIA on Apple TV and therefore it isn't really superior to the native applications, despite the $200 price point
I can use it with the same remote as I turn my TV on with.
In all honesty, these things all are just feature parity, they perform the exact same between the two devices, but I really feel like the UX of fast-forwarding, rewinding etc is completely MIA on Apple TV and therefore it isn't really superior to the native applications, despite the $200 price point
> I can use it with the same remote as I turn my TV on with.
Any modern TV will let the connected turn it on and off with HDMI-CEC. For Apple TV, you just use the volume or whatever button to turn it on, then hold the home button and tap sleep to turn it off. Roku supports this, too.
Any modern TV will let the connected turn it on and off with HDMI-CEC. For Apple TV, you just use the volume or whatever button to turn it on, then hold the home button and tap sleep to turn it off. Roku supports this, too.
Haha, sure, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I hate using the Apple TV remote, so I’ll stick to the classic UX on my roku remote
I loathe the Apple TV remote. The Roku remote is my fav although I currently use a shield pro which has been great.
If you have an I-device use the remote on that. iPhone controlling Apple TV is delightful (even allows 1pass access to passwords for accounts)
You've obviously never tried GMail in Firefox, though that's probably intentional.
It makes gmail look bad not firefox. I've moved away from gmail based mainly around performance.
I have also been surprised at how terrible the Apple TV is.
The PBS Kids app is super buggy. It randomly decides to start playing the audio from its home screen over whatever show my kid is trying to watch.
And Emby, which works great on Roku and on iOS, looks great on Apple TV but fails at actually playing videos.
The PBS Kids app is super buggy. It randomly decides to start playing the audio from its home screen over whatever show my kid is trying to watch.
And Emby, which works great on Roku and on iOS, looks great on Apple TV but fails at actually playing videos.
Smart TV apps are largely terrible to start with. The $30 on-sale ($50 retail) Fire TV 4K Stick has been one of my highest bang-for-the-buck consumer purchases in a long time.
It's a great Plex client, YouTube client, Netflix client, Prime Video client (of course), and quickly took over primary video source duties as soon as I installed it.
The prior version (the not 4K one) struggled with even 1080p H265 decoding, but the 4K version handles H265 and all the other formats I've thrown at it just fine.
Even when the TV was brand new, the apps on the TV were terrible (sluggish, disjointed UI, TV remote not comfortable to use as primary remote). 4 years later, they're not going to be any better, while the HDMI input sources can be easily and cheaply upgraded.
It's a great Plex client, YouTube client, Netflix client, Prime Video client (of course), and quickly took over primary video source duties as soon as I installed it.
The prior version (the not 4K one) struggled with even 1080p H265 decoding, but the 4K version handles H265 and all the other formats I've thrown at it just fine.
Even when the TV was brand new, the apps on the TV were terrible (sluggish, disjointed UI, TV remote not comfortable to use as primary remote). 4 years later, they're not going to be any better, while the HDMI input sources can be easily and cheaply upgraded.
I agree. I use a roku instead, but same result. I used the apps on my TV for a bit when I got it, but they would fail, like it had a memory leak if I watched something for over 3 hours. I don't trust telling the TV to disable wifi, so I just changed the wifi credentials on the TV to be incorrect. No problems anymore.
Only a matter of time before they start downloading ads via OTA datastream. Could do rough geolocation by differential signal strengths/timing. TV could run code to infer gender/age/etc or just link it to the serial number of the purchaser and their address.
Of course you didn’t get your 65” TV delivered to your own house, right?
If it’s strictly one-way, ad purchasers may not know precisely how many “hits” they got, but could be inferred from the online TVs.
To be determined if it’s worthwhile if almost everyone puts the TV online anyway, but if there’s a world where people don’t, you’ll still be almost as screwed.
Of course you didn’t get your 65” TV delivered to your own house, right?
If it’s strictly one-way, ad purchasers may not know precisely how many “hits” they got, but could be inferred from the online TVs.
To be determined if it’s worthwhile if almost everyone puts the TV online anyway, but if there’s a world where people don’t, you’ll still be almost as screwed.
I’m surprised they haven’t paid google to serve long term ads to offline TVs from their street view cars... or Tesla, or any car manufacturer probably parked in a close by garage and able to receive data ota
At least TCL and Hisense manufacture TVs with Roku built in, which seems like a big benefit, streaming services don't need to make and maintain another app specifically for your budget brand.
Depends on the TVs obviously. The C9/CX OLEDs have pretty powerful processors and are snappier in my experience in comparison to the cheaper streaming sticks.
From a tracking perspective, I'd assume a Fire TV stick is even worse than any TV OS. It's Amazon after all!
Probably half of what we watch on it is YouTube, so Amazon is in the #2 spot of big tech that I'm worried about.
The apps on LG TVs work surprisingly well. I would avoid them for the advertising and tracking concerns, but I just want to point out that the quality has vastly improved since the earliest smart TVs.
Honestly not surprising. I bought a washing machine from LG a year or two ago. At first, I didn't bother even looking into its "connected" features, but recently I came into a spare iPhone that was just gathering dust, so I figured why not give it a shot, maybe there's something useful here.
Holy hell.
The app itself refuses to even attempt to connect to any device, unless granted Location Services permission. WTF? I mean, I expected spyware, I guess I just didn't expect them to be so god damn brazen about it.
After that, it turns out the appliance itself refuses to stay connected to the wifi network unless it can phone home. Needless to say, it ignores both forms of proxy configuration (WPAD and DHCP option) as well. Give it direct Internet, or give it death.
Holy hell.
The app itself refuses to even attempt to connect to any device, unless granted Location Services permission. WTF? I mean, I expected spyware, I guess I just didn't expect them to be so god damn brazen about it.
After that, it turns out the appliance itself refuses to stay connected to the wifi network unless it can phone home. Needless to say, it ignores both forms of proxy configuration (WPAD and DHCP option) as well. Give it direct Internet, or give it death.
If an app needs to connect to a Wi-Fi AP on the appliance, you have to allow location since having access to the Wi-Fi scan of networks that are in range can allow for some coarse geolocation, thanks to open source SSID databases [1]. I wish Android and iOS would add functionality that allowed an app to connect to a known SSID without access to the scan because the permission requirement is rightly off-putting.
[1] https://wigle.net/map?maplat=37.76559999999937&maplon=-122.4...
[1] https://wigle.net/map?maplat=37.76559999999937&maplon=-122.4...
> I wish Android and iOS would add functionality that allowed an app to connect to a known SSID without access to the scan
Would that really help that much? If you know the user's approximate area, e.g. by IP address, and their SSID is unique in that area, than if the app says to the OS "please connect to this SSID if it's available" and the connection happens, the app now has your location.
I suppose that's a case for making location access more granular, not leaving things the way they are. But I bet people doing UIs for Google and Apple won't do that because the average user doesn't understand the possible location implications of giving away your SSID.
Would that really help that much? If you know the user's approximate area, e.g. by IP address, and their SSID is unique in that area, than if the app says to the OS "please connect to this SSID if it's available" and the connection happens, the app now has your location.
I suppose that's a case for making location access more granular, not leaving things the way they are. But I bet people doing UIs for Google and Apple won't do that because the average user doesn't understand the possible location implications of giving away your SSID.
I could be wrong but I don't think this is the case?
Even after enabling the Location Services access, I still had to manually connect to the appliance's AP through the iOS Settings app.
Even after enabling the Location Services access, I still had to manually connect to the appliance's AP through the iOS Settings app.
May I ask what features your washing machine needs internet access for? I maybe be a bit backward, but it's a washing machine, it washes clothes, I can't see how that would ever require accessing the internet.
It can ping you when it's done, useful if you cant hear it or forget.
A count down timer on your phone's clock app can achieve the same effect, without the washer needing to be internet connected.
Granted, you do have to remember to start the countdown timer.
Granted, you do have to remember to start the countdown timer.
I have a combined washer/dryer that has a handy one-touch “wash and dry the stuff in the drum” setting, which is enabled in part by moisture detection in the drying phase. I let it know what kind of fabric it’s dealing with (cotton or synthetics) and it does the rest.
Because of this, the total cycle time can be as little as 40 minutes or as long as 2 hours and I have no real control over it. I would love if it could ping my phone since I wear headphones a lot and often miss the chime.
Because of this, the total cycle time can be as little as 40 minutes or as long as 2 hours and I have no real control over it. I would love if it could ping my phone since I wear headphones a lot and often miss the chime.
At this point I think the solution is to have a nearby Raspberry Pi or similar detect the chime with a microphone, then send an old-fashioned email. LOL
edit: Actually, can anyone suggest software to do this with? I already have a Pi-alike in the same room.
edit: Actually, can anyone suggest software to do this with? I already have a Pi-alike in the same room.
I've semi-seriously considered getting one of those flashing process lights that you see on industrial equipment and hooking it up to a pi that monitors the power draw through the outlet and lights up whenever it goes high->low.
Oh you can get a zwave or similar power switch that can monitor power usage that does that for you, no custom rpi required. Then you make an automation that sends a push once power is down after an initial increase minimum.
There are also high power zwave switches that should work with driers too.
Or shit can respect our privacy
There are also high power zwave switches that should work with driers too.
Or shit can respect our privacy
Don't know about the audio detection software... you might also think about sampling your home power usage and detecting the characteristic usage pattern of your washing machine..?
The time is not always exact. It can changed based on size of load, or soil level, or how long it takes it to balance the load to spin it.
Privacy is useful as well. Death by a thousand conveniences? Gawd only knows what the app is doing while you're not doing laundry. Surveillance Capitalism is real.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-und...
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-und...
"Death by a thousand conveniences" is inspired.
And another OTM fan.
And another OTM fan.
GDPR and CCPA exist, don't be that pessimistic.
It can email you?
https://twitter.com/dcseifert/status/1367478685306138629
https://twitter.com/dcseifert/status/1367478685306138629
That's exactly my question. I just wanted it connected to the phone, which is on the same local network. Not to the internet.
Seems to be violating one of the Rules of Robotics.
It needs extermination.
It needs extermination.
sounds like my dishwasher
> Now I’m fully aware that it’s not unusual to see ads placed around a TV’s home screen or main menu.
This kind of acceptance is the problem. Push back! Don't buy this shit.
This kind of acceptance is the problem. Push back! Don't buy this shit.
Given that the choice is increasingly not "buy an alternative product" but "abstain from the market entirely".
That's possible for TVs (I've never owned one personally, though I've ived in households which have. I don't watch). But cars, refrigerators, stoves, washing machines, thermostats, rental housing ... ? Some of those absolute essentials and necessities.
Laws and massive class-action lawsuits.
Excellent On The Media segment featuring Shoshana Zuboff from December 2020, mentioned elssewhere on this thread:
https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio.wnyc.org/otm/...
That's possible for TVs (I've never owned one personally, though I've ived in households which have. I don't watch). But cars, refrigerators, stoves, washing machines, thermostats, rental housing ... ? Some of those absolute essentials and necessities.
Laws and massive class-action lawsuits.
Excellent On The Media segment featuring Shoshana Zuboff from December 2020, mentioned elssewhere on this thread:
https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio.wnyc.org/otm/...
I do abstain from the market. It's not a conscious effort, but it discourages me every time I think I'd like one of those things.
My friend is selling her TV at a decent price, but when I learned it's a Samsung I lost interest. I don't trust Samsung with any sort of hardware.
I also don't trust new motorbikes with their computer-assisted everything. ABS and traction control are my last stop.
I'm also fine with simple appliances, because they never felt like something that would benefit from a computer.
I still have a dumb 720p projector. I'm sure I can find an upgrade, but those Internet-connected projectors are not in consideration.
I like devices that are functional, in the programming sense. Simple inputs, simple outputs, no side effects.
My friend is selling her TV at a decent price, but when I learned it's a Samsung I lost interest. I don't trust Samsung with any sort of hardware.
I also don't trust new motorbikes with their computer-assisted everything. ABS and traction control are my last stop.
I'm also fine with simple appliances, because they never felt like something that would benefit from a computer.
I still have a dumb 720p projector. I'm sure I can find an upgrade, but those Internet-connected projectors are not in consideration.
I like devices that are functional, in the programming sense. Simple inputs, simple outputs, no side effects.
Again, for emphasis: this is not just about television.
You cannot buy a modern car without a computer, and increasingly, without a cellular modem in it. TV can be foregone, housing cannot. Small and major appliances are effectively only available in surveillance-enabled versions.
Neither "vote with your wallet" nor "abstain" are viable options.
And again: laws and lawsuits.
You cannot buy a modern car without a computer, and increasingly, without a cellular modem in it. TV can be foregone, housing cannot. Small and major appliances are effectively only available in surveillance-enabled versions.
Neither "vote with your wallet" nor "abstain" are viable options.
And again: laws and lawsuits.
[deleted]
That's strange, the LG CX series are the mid to premium range from LG being OLED? I am willing to pay more to avoid ads but putting ads on premium models now leads to why should I pay more if I'm going to see ads anyway so might as well get the cheaper model/brand that was good enough but avoided because of ads.
I was looking the LG CX at christmas but decided to go with the Sony X9500 as could get a bigger screen for the same price and nervous around screen burn on oled of the lg cx.
The reason I was looking the LG CX / Sony specifically was because of lack of (or perceived lack of) ads compared to say Samsung who are well known for this. Both TV's had good feedback on the user-interface being fast and user friendly.
I'm now glad I went with the Sony. The Sony's seem to be running a pretty stock Android TV UI so haven't seen any ads or annoying things so far. In fact it's working better than the Xiaomi Mi Android tv box I had previously with my old TV. It's faster, not as buggy, supports Airplay and AppleTV, I was quite pleased after updating having one remote, no third party boxes plugged in and a seamless UI with what appears stock like android tv.
I hope Sony don't do an update pushing ads. Saying that I run a dns blocker on my router so maybe I do get ads but they are blocked.
Ads / bigdata seems to be the bullshit jobs of the modern world with ads driving us more and more to a dystopian future with more data acquisition then driving more ads then driving more data acquisition and on.
I was looking the LG CX at christmas but decided to go with the Sony X9500 as could get a bigger screen for the same price and nervous around screen burn on oled of the lg cx.
The reason I was looking the LG CX / Sony specifically was because of lack of (or perceived lack of) ads compared to say Samsung who are well known for this. Both TV's had good feedback on the user-interface being fast and user friendly.
I'm now glad I went with the Sony. The Sony's seem to be running a pretty stock Android TV UI so haven't seen any ads or annoying things so far. In fact it's working better than the Xiaomi Mi Android tv box I had previously with my old TV. It's faster, not as buggy, supports Airplay and AppleTV, I was quite pleased after updating having one remote, no third party boxes plugged in and a seamless UI with what appears stock like android tv.
I hope Sony don't do an update pushing ads. Saying that I run a dns blocker on my router so maybe I do get ads but they are blocked.
Ads / bigdata seems to be the bullshit jobs of the modern world with ads driving us more and more to a dystopian future with more data acquisition then driving more ads then driving more data acquisition and on.
I think the majority of the population is OK with ads everywhere and paying for multiple streaming channels for 5-10x more than basic cable from the 90's.
If that's what customers want, or continue to buy, I guess that makes me a grumpy old man like the OP.
Last year my 10+ year old Roku was EOL'd: it literally STOPPED working. Had I paid more than $50 for it, I'd probably be more miffed, but I think this is a consequence that will become more egregious if we continue to buy "smart" things. However it was getting less and less use because there's just nothing I'm interested in watching, or rather, I don't want to pay to click channels like I did in pre-2000. Every show I"m interested in requires a subscription to a new service, so I just said fuck it around 2012-2013 and stuck with Netflix DVDs, and then cancelled that in 2018. Now I rent an Amazon Prime flick once or twice a week for $2.99, which is about 12-24$/month.
If that's what customers want, or continue to buy, I guess that makes me a grumpy old man like the OP.
Last year my 10+ year old Roku was EOL'd: it literally STOPPED working. Had I paid more than $50 for it, I'd probably be more miffed, but I think this is a consequence that will become more egregious if we continue to buy "smart" things. However it was getting less and less use because there's just nothing I'm interested in watching, or rather, I don't want to pay to click channels like I did in pre-2000. Every show I"m interested in requires a subscription to a new service, so I just said fuck it around 2012-2013 and stuck with Netflix DVDs, and then cancelled that in 2018. Now I rent an Amazon Prime flick once or twice a week for $2.99, which is about 12-24$/month.
> I think the majority of the population is OK with ads everywhere
You talk as if there was a $1800 ad-free TV on sale next to the ad-infested one. The majority isn't given a choice.
You talk as if there was a $1800 ad-free TV on sale next to the ad-infested one. The majority isn't given a choice.
I thought supply had to cater to demand, but if they're all emergently colluding...
There was an economist who was walking down the street with a friend.
The friend stops and says, "Look, there is a $20 bill on the ground!"
The economist turns and coolly replies, "Can't be. If there was a $20 bill on the ground, somebody would have already picked it up."
The friend stops and says, "Look, there is a $20 bill on the ground!"
The economist turns and coolly replies, "Can't be. If there was a $20 bill on the ground, somebody would have already picked it up."
There's always a bit of the opposite effect too. If supply of something is extremely low, then people eventually stop looking for it. People might want the object, but they might not express that desire if the supply is next to non-existent.
supply shapes demand as much as demand shapes supply
What? Just don't connect it to the internet.
Unless this TV doesn't allow that?
Agree with your point, there is little choice.
I recall reading that there was a place to purchase bezel-less, stripped down TVs w/o the smarts, that are basically monitors without being the quality of monitors so they are cheap, and used for creating giant wall displays.
Unless this TV doesn't allow that?
Agree with your point, there is little choice.
I recall reading that there was a place to purchase bezel-less, stripped down TVs w/o the smarts, that are basically monitors without being the quality of monitors so they are cheap, and used for creating giant wall displays.
All modern hdmi cables support ethernet so unless the device in the other end of the cable is an older one the TV could still get internet.
The fix is better laws. The exact same TV in Nordic version have an option to turn ads on (it defaults to off).
The fix is better laws. The exact same TV in Nordic version have an option to turn ads on (it defaults to off).
I had no idea ethernet over HDMI existed. That is awful. Thanks for letting me know. :(
are they paying for more than basic cable?
I know with my family we aren't My parent may for netflix My sister pays for HBO My wife and I pay for Disney/Hulu (also espn came in the bundle but none of us watch sports but there wasn't a option to not get it) we all share accounts and each have our profile. We each have our own amazon prime account but that's more for shipping, with the streaming as a nice bonus.
I will get a free trail to other services and cancel them after i finish what ever show i wanted i couldn't get on the other pay services. which reminds me i need to sign up for a free paramount+ trial for the next batch of star trek seasons.
then there are all of the free streaming services that are ad supported (pluto IMDBtv etc...)
Honestly though other than a few prestige shows (Witcher, Mandalorian, Wandvision, Picard) and reruns of 90 and 00 sitcoms (scrubs frazer freinds) when i cant sleep, or star trek binge when my wife pulls a weekend evening shift at work I don't watch that much tv.
Mostly I just listen to audible or watch youtube
I know with my family we aren't My parent may for netflix My sister pays for HBO My wife and I pay for Disney/Hulu (also espn came in the bundle but none of us watch sports but there wasn't a option to not get it) we all share accounts and each have our profile. We each have our own amazon prime account but that's more for shipping, with the streaming as a nice bonus.
I will get a free trail to other services and cancel them after i finish what ever show i wanted i couldn't get on the other pay services. which reminds me i need to sign up for a free paramount+ trial for the next batch of star trek seasons.
then there are all of the free streaming services that are ad supported (pluto IMDBtv etc...)
Honestly though other than a few prestige shows (Witcher, Mandalorian, Wandvision, Picard) and reruns of 90 and 00 sitcoms (scrubs frazer freinds) when i cant sleep, or star trek binge when my wife pulls a weekend evening shift at work I don't watch that much tv.
Mostly I just listen to audible or watch youtube
If I wanted to watch all of the shows I'm interested, and purchased all the streaming services that my Roku refers me to when I search, it would be probably ... US$150/month? Basic cable is $20 on comcast/Xfinity. But it is hard to compare because I search for movies rather than basic TV, which I think was your point.
> Mostly I just listen to audible or watch youtube
Yes, some of us are having our media habits reshaped by our intolerance for bullshit.
> Mostly I just listen to audible or watch youtube
Yes, some of us are having our media habits reshaped by our intolerance for bullshit.
That worries me when this sort of obsolescence is baked into devices that are meant to last long, like vehicles or appliances. I prefer when the short-lived stuff stays on a separate device.
Most tv manufacturers are on my shitlist because of that.
I bought a Panasonic OLED a couple years ago. It’s 55” and it’s top of the range (same panel as the LGs, better software. They’re the reference screens they use in Hollywood to color movies in post apparently)
I paid 1000$ for it, new, with two years of warranty. It has no ads, period. Except on the YouTube app but these are from YouTube themselves. I use Kodi to stream YT instead. Oh and it boots in 5 seconds flat, from pressing the power button to content on screen.
I guess there might still be a few reputable tv makers that don’t do ads or content recognition. Panasonic is one at least on that particular model. I’ll never buy an LG or Samsung for these reasons and will probably stick to Panasonic.
I bought a Panasonic OLED a couple years ago. It’s 55” and it’s top of the range (same panel as the LGs, better software. They’re the reference screens they use in Hollywood to color movies in post apparently)
I paid 1000$ for it, new, with two years of warranty. It has no ads, period. Except on the YouTube app but these are from YouTube themselves. I use Kodi to stream YT instead. Oh and it boots in 5 seconds flat, from pressing the power button to content on screen.
I guess there might still be a few reputable tv makers that don’t do ads or content recognition. Panasonic is one at least on that particular model. I’ll never buy an LG or Samsung for these reasons and will probably stick to Panasonic.
We have a 3 year old 65 inch Sony and it behaves just fine also.
I used to scratch my head at who would pay a $500-1000 premium for a Sony when it just uses an LG panel. But after owning an LG for several years now and seeing it get more and more ads with every update, I think the premium on the Sony is worth it for an ad-free clean experience.
Agreed, as I had an LG before that, and loved it; our trick was wait for year end new models essentially the same to come out, and Best Buy to discount the prior year models.
> Oh and it boots in 5 seconds flat, from pressing the power button to content on screen.
It's sad that 5 seconds is considered a good start up time for a TV.
It's sad that 5 seconds is considered a good start up time for a TV.
I don’t think it’s bad for a tv with so much image processing and other logic in it to take five seconds from pressing the internet button to having the image shown?
Even CRTs took comparable time with no software in them. It took a few seconds to warm up and not show a distorted image.
Even CRTs took comparable time with no software in them. It took a few seconds to warm up and not show a distorted image.
Can concur! Panasonic seems to not have caught onto the TV ads trend.
My four year old Panasonic shows ads in the apps screen.
I'm using an Apple TV into a projector (which is not connected to the internet). I'm not getting ads through the Apple TV.
I'm assuming there will be claims that whatever apple is doing to keep ads out and just have their own world is violating anti-trust, but I have to say I like it.
They also do a weird aggregation thing across Amazon etc, so you have shows from multiple channels / service in one view. Not sure how that works, but from consumer side it is very nice.
I'm assuming there will be claims that whatever apple is doing to keep ads out and just have their own world is violating anti-trust, but I have to say I like it.
They also do a weird aggregation thing across Amazon etc, so you have shows from multiple channels / service in one view. Not sure how that works, but from consumer side it is very nice.
Apple (so far) has been very reliable about letting you give them extra cash for a mostly user-respecting experience, and that's the main reason I buy from them (and has made me happy with my Apple TV purchase)
So as long as these built-in ads on the display can be disabled by disconnecting the thing from the internet, I can live with it. If they ever decide to make them work offline, or start embedding a cell antenna in the TV set, that's when I'll throw a real fit
So as long as these built-in ads on the display can be disabled by disconnecting the thing from the internet, I can live with it. If they ever decide to make them work offline, or start embedding a cell antenna in the TV set, that's when I'll throw a real fit
I think they are planning to pay comcast/xfinity and others for bandwidth off the home router hotspots in an automated way.
So if your neighbor is on that type of program the TV can piggyback on your or their hotspot and push back the analytics / get the ads. That's probably a pretty low cost way to solve the not plugged in or piholed issues.
So if your neighbor is on that type of program the TV can piggyback on your or their hotspot and push back the analytics / get the ads. That's probably a pretty low cost way to solve the not plugged in or piholed issues.
Isn't that where legislation is supposed to help?
In theory, yes. The reality is HD TV was mandated via legislation. Look what that has led to.
Apple isn’t blocking ads here. They make their money through the hardware and additional devices, without the need to inject ads everywhere.
If you use an ad supported service like Peacock or Hulu you’ll still see ads in the streams.
If you use an ad supported service like Peacock or Hulu you’ll still see ads in the streams.
Ahh - very nice.
I don't use hulu. I license movies I like on the itunes store if I'll be watching them a few times. And stream very lightly.
I would not take it well to have to deal with ads on an expensive device, or even be forced to jump through hoops to turn them off. I'm sure Apple is leaving money on the table, but I'm very willing to pay the apple premium to have to worry a lot less about this type of total jerk behavior.
I don't use hulu. I license movies I like on the itunes store if I'll be watching them a few times. And stream very lightly.
I would not take it well to have to deal with ads on an expensive device, or even be forced to jump through hoops to turn them off. I'm sure Apple is leaving money on the table, but I'm very willing to pay the apple premium to have to worry a lot less about this type of total jerk behavior.
Doesn't Apple do sponsored app search placement on the Apple TV?
https://searchads.apple.com/
Or is that only on their other devices?
https://searchads.apple.com/
Or is that only on their other devices?
I just wish Apple also made/sold a great quality, guaranteed-ad-free screen.
Imagine that connected to (or with an in-built) AppleTV unit, and the sound from four Apple HomePods.
Imagine that connected to (or with an in-built) AppleTV unit, and the sound from four Apple HomePods.
I never liked (or even understood) the concept of a smart tv.
“Do I want to replace my player hardware every time I get a new display?”
The answer was a definite no.
I ended up buying shiny new 65” 4K HDR Smart TV only because they didn’t sell it in dumb version.
I duct taped it’s Ethernet port, and shielded it from wifi. (Just an image... but never let it connect).
It’s only a display for Kodi and a gaming pc.
... And they lived happily ever after, without ever thinking about updates. End of story.
(Pre-answers for the usual questions: I banished TV from my life in 1998. This “display” never seen an antenna. I read news papers, actual physical copies arriving in mail. And hacker news, ofc. I’m only ~30 years old. And yes it is a way, and I don’t see how TV is missing from my life)
“Do I want to replace my player hardware every time I get a new display?”
The answer was a definite no.
I ended up buying shiny new 65” 4K HDR Smart TV only because they didn’t sell it in dumb version.
I duct taped it’s Ethernet port, and shielded it from wifi. (Just an image... but never let it connect).
It’s only a display for Kodi and a gaming pc.
... And they lived happily ever after, without ever thinking about updates. End of story.
(Pre-answers for the usual questions: I banished TV from my life in 1998. This “display” never seen an antenna. I read news papers, actual physical copies arriving in mail. And hacker news, ofc. I’m only ~30 years old. And yes it is a way, and I don’t see how TV is missing from my life)
> I never liked (or even understood) the concept of a smart tv.
It's perfectly understandable from the manufacturer point of view: a more complex, programmable, platform that can be instructed to show ads or grab personal data. I'm expecting the same behavior from every connected piece of technology we will put in our homes/cars/bodies.
> I duct taped it’s Ethernet port, and shielded it from wifi. (Just an image... but never let it connect).
Thanks to 5G (which is a good thing in itself) most of them will connect anyway, and some already attempt to find unprotected WiFi hotspots to get online.
It's perfectly understandable from the manufacturer point of view: a more complex, programmable, platform that can be instructed to show ads or grab personal data. I'm expecting the same behavior from every connected piece of technology we will put in our homes/cars/bodies.
> I duct taped it’s Ethernet port, and shielded it from wifi. (Just an image... but never let it connect).
Thanks to 5G (which is a good thing in itself) most of them will connect anyway, and some already attempt to find unprotected WiFi hotspots to get online.
Source on the claim?
I couldn't find the reference, sorry, however I'm sure I read it here from some user who wanted to keep offline his Smart TV by not giving it any encrypted WiFi credentials, but found it attempting to connect anyway through open ones.
Someone already found Smart TVs using hardcoded DNS addresses (although they obtain their own address through a DHCP request) which has the side effect of bypassing anti-adware/malware tools such as Pi-Hole.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480
Ignoring the user choice of keeping a SmartTV offline by looking for the nearest open network (or possibly using 5G in the future) would be just one step away.
Someone already found Smart TVs using hardcoded DNS addresses (although they obtain their own address through a DHCP request) which has the side effect of bypassing anti-adware/malware tools such as Pi-Hole.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480
Ignoring the user choice of keeping a SmartTV offline by looking for the nearest open network (or possibly using 5G in the future) would be just one step away.
Putting in a sim would cost more than the ad revenue, wouldn't it?
> some
Which?
> some
Which?
It's not like you're buying a high end blu ray player and a hifi system built into smart TVs, the player hardware is probably similar to a raspberry pi in cost and complexity.
Pi 4 is from 2019, has 4 cores at 1.5 GHz made with 28 nm process.
Smartphones from 2019 had 8 cores at 2.8 GHz made with 7 nm process.
I think TVs gotta be closer to smartphones than to Pi4.
Smartphones from 2019 had 8 cores at 2.8 GHz made with 7 nm process.
I think TVs gotta be closer to smartphones than to Pi4.
This would make me absolutely explode. I can do the pihole route but I'd rather we had legal control over what's being displayed on our TVs.
Legislation saying that "network off" settings need to be respected and the device needs to work as much as a possible without a network connection, on pain of 2x revenue + penalty from whatever agreements you made selling data would go a long way.
No more cars that spy on you as you drive around when you turn of network services, no more TVs that spy on what you watch and so on.
No more cars that spy on you as you drive around when you turn of network services, no more TVs that spy on what you watch and so on.
What you sounds quite reasonable...from a consumer perspective. Laws are not written for consumers. You have no power and no voice and the vast majority of people are so completely checked out of reality that you are hopelessly outnumbered. Oh, and big business and government surveillance are both lined up on the other side. We are losing this one.
Rental cars .. Well cars in general used to have Aux ports. Not any more. And the default is always to sync contacts. Its out of hand.
Most of these ads are actually built into the firmware, I have a pihole set up and I still get ads from my tv, sometimes even on startup there will be a new thing appearing in the corner. Next up is preventing it from accessing the internet entirely, but then I'd need to have a second remote to actually watch my content.
I turned the ads off in my LG TV, took 5 minutes and now it behaves exactly as a dumb TV would to my eyes.
I’m surprised by this community’s refusal to spend even a small amount of time hacking on their TV. Maybe you think it should “just” work, but when is that ever the case?
I’m surprised by this community’s refusal to spend even a small amount of time hacking on their TV. Maybe you think it should “just” work, but when is that ever the case?
Because 70% of the population will never bother doing that.
And then it creeps higher, as people get used to it.
"Sure it's opt out, that means it's not forced" is a horrible argument for an anti-consumer move. Wait until IP's are hardcoded and ads can't be turned off, on any consumer TV, because there's no more demand for dumb ones, and it maximizes profit.
And then it creeps higher, as people get used to it.
"Sure it's opt out, that means it's not forced" is a horrible argument for an anti-consumer move. Wait until IP's are hardcoded and ads can't be turned off, on any consumer TV, because there's no more demand for dumb ones, and it maximizes profit.
We've got folks here declaring they'd march into the store they bought their TV from and demand a refund. That's not a very hacker mindset, is my point.
Also, technically speaking, what you've constructed is a fallacy. When something like what you described happens, nobody's going to use "but you were okay with not-this before, therefore you must be okay with this new thing!"
I'll march into Best Buy right with you when I can't turn it off, but as long as I can, I'm probably just going to do that and move on with my life.
Also, technically speaking, what you've constructed is a fallacy. When something like what you described happens, nobody's going to use "but you were okay with not-this before, therefore you must be okay with this new thing!"
I'll march into Best Buy right with you when I can't turn it off, but as long as I can, I'm probably just going to do that and move on with my life.
>I'll march into Best Buy right with you when I can't turn it off, but as long as I can, I'm probably just going to do that and move on with my life.
I mean, yeah, I did too, but I'm also writing letters to my reps for the people who don't know how to do that.
>Also, technically speaking, what you've constructed is a fallacy. When something like what you described happens, nobody's going to use "but you were okay with not-this before, therefore you must be okay with this new thing!"
I'm not saying you'd be okay with it, in fact I think your view is pretty reasonable. Personally I want to stop this sort of thing from being on by default, personalized tracking on nearly every TV, etc.
I mean, yeah, I did too, but I'm also writing letters to my reps for the people who don't know how to do that.
>Also, technically speaking, what you've constructed is a fallacy. When something like what you described happens, nobody's going to use "but you were okay with not-this before, therefore you must be okay with this new thing!"
I'm not saying you'd be okay with it, in fact I think your view is pretty reasonable. Personally I want to stop this sort of thing from being on by default, personalized tracking on nearly every TV, etc.
My TVs "just" worked from the late 1980s until 2020, which is when I downgraded to a smart tv.
This is why no TV in my house ever gets access to the wifi. If I must update it, it gets a temporary guest network.
Why would it need to be updated? Either it works, or it doesn't. If you're not using the "smart" parts, then it needs to just decode the damn HDMI signal. If it stops doing that to the point of needing an update, then things are terribly terribly wrong.
It works, but there are other levels of the stack between low level decoding HDMI and the "smart" parts.
Without updates you might miss out on other improvements like decreased input lag, support for another format, and bugfixes for the existing implementations (i.e. the HDMI decoder strobes when specific configuration X is utilized).
As a concrete example, Sony added HDR to one of their lines a year after it's original production a few years ago[1].
[1]https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00157695
Without updates you might miss out on other improvements like decreased input lag, support for another format, and bugfixes for the existing implementations (i.e. the HDMI decoder strobes when specific configuration X is utilized).
As a concrete example, Sony added HDR to one of their lines a year after it's original production a few years ago[1].
[1]https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00157695
Just no. I paid the full amount on the TV, and you made a profit on it. So no, you should not be able to show ads and make more money off me, without my consent (which I don't give you). I am NOT going to turn off my wifi or stop updating its OS. I paid the full amount for the TV, I will expect full features to be functional at all times.
But they didn't make a profit. TVs are sold nearly at cost.
Do you have a source for this? I've heard the narrative before, but I find it slightly hard to believe there's that much value in (likely) poorly targeted ads from a system that manufacturers will probably drop backend support for in a few years.
That is not at all true. On an average, TVs have a 10% margin of the manufacturers, this tends to be way higher for newer models. If they are sold at nearly at cost, there's no point for most manufacturers to even be in the business.
This guy is remarkably calm about seeing this ad. I would be apoplectic. I would pick up the tv that instant and return it. If they wouldn’t accept it, I would douse it in lighter fluid and light it ablaze in their parking lot. But the last t.v. I owned was a CRT 15 years ago, so the idea that a t.v. plays its own ads is new to me.
> We’re just going to cram ads into every corner of a TV’s software, huh?
There are 12 ads active on this article, and at least 1 autoplaying video ad.
There are 12 ads active on this article, and at least 1 autoplaying video ad.
To be fair, they paid for the TV but you didn't pay for the article.
And you _can_ pay for the article in a way that causes the site to stop serving ads. The Verge is part of Scroll, which is one of the services where you pay a monthly subscription fee to not see ads on their member sites.
Not shilling (I have no affiliation other than being a subscriber), just thought it was relevant to the larger conversation about paying for things and ads.
Not shilling (I have no affiliation other than being a subscriber), just thought it was relevant to the larger conversation about paying for things and ads.
Hah! That is a good point!
Use an ad blocker. I don’t feel bad about not giving money to what is essentially a rant about a crappy tv. My life wouldn’t have changed in any way if I hadn’t read it.
You don't selectively refuse to give money though. You block everything by default and then rationalise that the content sucked.
I own one of these. Although I am yet to see full blown video ads like the one the article mentions, I definitely see banner ads on the bottom left of the LG interface, every time I click on the home button to switch between TV apps.
I do have FireTV 4K stick and an Apple TV 4K on HDMI inputs but I still prefer the apps on the TV. They are much better in terms of picture quality, no idea why. Even the Apple TV+ app on the TV looks better than the app on Apple TV!
I do have FireTV 4K stick and an Apple TV 4K on HDMI inputs but I still prefer the apps on the TV. They are much better in terms of picture quality, no idea why. Even the Apple TV+ app on the TV looks better than the app on Apple TV!
This is a shot in the dark, but it's possible your HDMI cables aren't fully supporting the 4K. I was having trouble with a 4K monitor not displaying properly and it turned out my HDMI cable was outdated. Replacing it with a DisplayPort fixed the issue. That being said, most modern HDMI cables should support 4K, but it's always good to check the hardware specs of the cable and the TV.
That was my first suspicion. The cables definitely support 4K. I enabled diagnostics overlay on my FireTV and the resolution was definitely 4K and yet the picture looks washed off.
Probably a software issue - the TV is reading the incoming SDR signal and treating it as Rec. 709 (the SDR standard) as opposed to Rec. 2020 (the HDR standard). Since the color primaries for Rec. 2020 are much wider, the values in the signal representing the "amount" of each color are smaller. If you then treat those numbers as in the SDR gamut, you get a washed out (less saturated) image.
This is also just a shot in the dark, but matches your observations pretty well.
This is also just a shot in the dark, but matches your observations pretty well.
Whoops, this should read "the TV is reading the incoming HDR signal". Just wanted to clarify.
I can almost guarantee that the issue is your Fire TV's input is set to a specific picture mode, whereas the built-in apps are using the color-inaccurate vivid mode.
Go to settings, all settings, program tuning and on the first option there press 11111 and a diagnostic screen will show HDMI settings.
It might be because of different display settings applied to different inputs.
This is why I can’t bring myself to change out my 32”
Samsung dumb TV. Every time I look elsewhere I see products which are worse even if I gain 4K and some more inches.
Please someone just sell a 4K monitor in 43, 50 inch sizes with HDMI that actually works and decent speakers and I’ll buy it for 25% more than the equivalent sized smart tv.
Please someone just sell a 4K monitor in 43, 50 inch sizes with HDMI that actually works and decent speakers and I’ll buy it for 25% more than the equivalent sized smart tv.
The standard response would be to buy a commercial display, but you are looking at more than 25% higher prices. On the other hand, commercial displays theoretically are designed to be run nearly 24/7/365 and thus more durable, and many far more features than your standard television. Many NEC commercial displays, for example, have an expansion slot for a Raspberry Pi Compute Module. Wouldn’t that be fun?
My "commercial display" series 55" 4k LG dumb tv from a few years ago (in Canada) was ~$150 cheaper than its featurewise-near-equivalent (except the smarts) Consumer-oriented smart TV at the time ($900 vs $1050 iirc).
However I don't know if that product series has been updated / still available, and it may have been Canada only. But I'm not sure "commercial displays" are actually more expensive -- it might depend on the type and intended use-case.
However I don't know if that product series has been updated / still available, and it may have been Canada only. But I'm not sure "commercial displays" are actually more expensive -- it might depend on the type and intended use-case.
I hear ya. My 46" Samsung is from 2008. It stated to go wonky in 2013 and I googled and found I needed to literally cut a resistor off the board. It's been fine ever since. Fingers crossed.
The thinness really prevents decent speakers being part of the tv itself. You're essentially getting mobile device level speakers on a 40"+ screen. Then, they aren't even facing you. As much as I'd prefer a dumb TV, I'd also prefer a mute TV. Don't waste effort/money on putting something that nobody is seriously going to use.
I do appreciate how up-front Amazon is with Kindles. There's a toggle on the product page between the ad-supported one and the ad-free one. $30 difference. They've been doing this for a long time, so I assume enough customers want it to make it worthwhile.
Not to mention they will disable the ads for you if you contact their support, for free, no questions asked...
I swear to God, if this happened with my TV I'd take it back to the store in whatever way I could find that would cost the manufacturer the most money. Intolerable.
"Smart" TVs should be banned. Streaming devices or nothing. TVs should be dumb screens.
"Smart" TVs should be banned. Streaming devices or nothing. TVs should be dumb screens.
Well if you could reformat them and load your own OS.
I recommend looking at Digital Signage Displays instead (NEC is pretty good but there are many name brands). They have most of the TV tech you need and none of the TV tech you don't want.
They are rated to run 16 to 24 hours a day, so they can possibly last much longer than a consumer TV. They do Wi-fi the way it's supposed to be done (you can remote control them from your PC or via local web interface, no cloud necessary). They have neat features such as DisplayPort, daisy-chaining, calibration etc. There are even models that have integrated slots for Raspberry Pis or NUCs or you can just plug in a Fire Stick/Chromecast or what have you and use Plex or any of the multitude of other solutions to build your own Smart TV.
I'd estimate you pay approx. $300-$500 premium for that convenience on a 65" 4k screen. I guess that's what not stealing your data is worth over the life of the device. I can live with that, as this ensures that I get enterprise/industrial-level quality and a professional feature set and none of the annoyances of Smart TVs.
They are rated to run 16 to 24 hours a day, so they can possibly last much longer than a consumer TV. They do Wi-fi the way it's supposed to be done (you can remote control them from your PC or via local web interface, no cloud necessary). They have neat features such as DisplayPort, daisy-chaining, calibration etc. There are even models that have integrated slots for Raspberry Pis or NUCs or you can just plug in a Fire Stick/Chromecast or what have you and use Plex or any of the multitude of other solutions to build your own Smart TV.
I'd estimate you pay approx. $300-$500 premium for that convenience on a 65" 4k screen. I guess that's what not stealing your data is worth over the life of the device. I can live with that, as this ensures that I get enterprise/industrial-level quality and a professional feature set and none of the annoyances of Smart TVs.
I'm in the UK and own two LG Smart TVs (a 65SM8600PLA and a 82UN85006LA).
I've never seen any ads on the 65" model, and the 82" model had a toggle to switch them off.
In the past, I was always against buying any device with features integrated into it (like a TV/DVD combo), but after actually using a smart TV (I had a Panasonic Smart TV before these LG TVs), I can't see any reason why I'd want to stop using the built-in apps like Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney+, BBC iPlayer, and YouTube.
The apps work well, and the convenience of them being integrated into the TV is hard to argue with.
Sure, I could watch the same content with the Chromecast, PC, Xbox Series X, or DVR - all connected via HDMI, but what would that actually offer over the TV's own apps?
I've never seen any ads on the 65" model, and the 82" model had a toggle to switch them off.
In the past, I was always against buying any device with features integrated into it (like a TV/DVD combo), but after actually using a smart TV (I had a Panasonic Smart TV before these LG TVs), I can't see any reason why I'd want to stop using the built-in apps like Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney+, BBC iPlayer, and YouTube.
The apps work well, and the convenience of them being integrated into the TV is hard to argue with.
Sure, I could watch the same content with the Chromecast, PC, Xbox Series X, or DVR - all connected via HDMI, but what would that actually offer over the TV's own apps?
What's never mentioned in this brand of article is that $1,500 is probably quite low for the caliber of screen you get in a brand new TV. The state of the art has progressed significantly, while the cost of manufacturing hasn't dropped all that much; and yet the price of a new TV has held more or less constant, because it is subsidized by the income from ads.
The problem isn't that the TVs show ads, it's that there is no option on the market for a non-homebrand TV that is fully functional but doesn't show ads. My guess is that manufacturers are afraid to sell this option because it then becomes trivial to flash the firmware from an adless TV onto an adful TV.
(FWIW I hate nothing more than seeing ads on my TV outside broadcast)
The problem isn't that the TVs show ads, it's that there is no option on the market for a non-homebrand TV that is fully functional but doesn't show ads. My guess is that manufacturers are afraid to sell this option because it then becomes trivial to flash the firmware from an adless TV onto an adful TV.
(FWIW I hate nothing more than seeing ads on my TV outside broadcast)
My take is that ad revenue for TV manufacturers is next to nothing today, and it has zero impact on the cost of a TV set. But they're trying in case they can have access to a potentially huge revenue stream in the future. And my take is also that they won't do it well and they won't gain access to a revenue stream that only the likes of Google or Facebook are able to command and manage, but they will certainly annoy a huge amount of users along the way.
Only convenient option here seems to be to not give connectivity to your TV set, or not have a TV set at all.
Only convenient option here seems to be to not give connectivity to your TV set, or not have a TV set at all.
> $1,500 is probably quite low for the caliber of screen you get in a brand new TV.
I am suspicious of that claim. How much, in real dollars, is your exposure to ads worth over the lifetime of the TV? I bet it doesn't move the needle that much. This is just manufacturers getting greedy, they're not selling TVs at a loss.
I am suspicious of that claim. How much, in real dollars, is your exposure to ads worth over the lifetime of the TV? I bet it doesn't move the needle that much. This is just manufacturers getting greedy, they're not selling TVs at a loss.
It is actually mentioned, and discussed in the article, e.g.:
“This stuff can come off as invasive, but it’s also partially what’s steadily brought the prices down on even high-end TVs....”
“This stuff can come off as invasive, but it’s also partially what’s steadily brought the prices down on even high-end TVs....”
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How much do you imagine ads pay?? Because it is a tiny amount. Cents. Not dollars.
It's not just ads, they gather and sell data to other advertisers. This has a compounding effect over time, so i'd say it's very much lucrative.
It also has little overhead compared to physical TVs.
> then becomes trivial to flash the firmware from an adless TV onto an adful TV
Just occurred to me that we need some young hackers to start working on "opening" up tv firmware like they have for consoles and phones.
Just occurred to me that we need some young hackers to start working on "opening" up tv firmware like they have for consoles and phones.
> it's that there is no option on the market for a non-homebrand TV that is fully functional but doesn't show ads
Actually, Vizio tried this with their SmartCast TVs. They didn't have any built-in apps, and relied on Google Cast to work. The TVs shipped with an Android tablet so you didn't technically need a smartphone to use it.
They only lasted one year before reverting and putting apps on the TV.
Actually, Vizio tried this with their SmartCast TVs. They didn't have any built-in apps, and relied on Google Cast to work. The TVs shipped with an Android tablet so you didn't technically need a smartphone to use it.
They only lasted one year before reverting and putting apps on the TV.
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We'll probably have ads in our dreams eventually, like in Futurama.
Alternatively you could adopt the attitude people like RMS have and refuse to interact with manipulative software from lying companies.
if i refused to interact with lying companies i think the only place i could do business is at the independent espresso stand a few miles away run by a senior lady and her cat.
Just let me pay more for a non-ads version. Worked just fine for Amazon Kindle products.
I'd like to see legislation that essentially said all ad-supported products of a certain size have to offer a non-ads version. Price is up to the product maker, but start forcing consumers to see what producers think their data and eyeballs is worth
> This stuff can come off as invasive, but it’s also partially what’s steadily brought the prices down on even high-end TVs.
Is it? I highly doubt ad revenue on these TVs puts anything more than a single-digit dent on the dollar pricetag, and Sceptre's TVs - without smarts at all, let alone ads - are able to undercut those pricetags without much (if anything) in the way of sacrificed quality.
Is it? I highly doubt ad revenue on these TVs puts anything more than a single-digit dent on the dollar pricetag, and Sceptre's TVs - without smarts at all, let alone ads - are able to undercut those pricetags without much (if anything) in the way of sacrificed quality.
If you look at my comment history you will see this answer posted before, not worth typing again as this is the (some larger number of times) we have had a thread on this subject.
“I just bought the TV I wanted and never connected it to the internet, never ran the "setup". I use an AppleTV 4K which has all the streaming apps you want (Netflix, Amazon, BBC, Pluto, etc.). For local media I use an application called MrMC ($6.99) which is a Kodi port to the AppleTV that allows you to mount Samba/NFS (https://mrmc.tv). MrMC even supports using a SQL backend for keeping track of your media (like Kodi). I just run it in on a jail in my TrueNAS setup. Every TV is the same, every time someone starts MrMC everything is in sync. Nice and simple.”
“I just bought the TV I wanted and never connected it to the internet, never ran the "setup". I use an AppleTV 4K which has all the streaming apps you want (Netflix, Amazon, BBC, Pluto, etc.). For local media I use an application called MrMC ($6.99) which is a Kodi port to the AppleTV that allows you to mount Samba/NFS (https://mrmc.tv). MrMC even supports using a SQL backend for keeping track of your media (like Kodi). I just run it in on a jail in my TrueNAS setup. Every TV is the same, every time someone starts MrMC everything is in sync. Nice and simple.”
I wonder how much demand there is for services to "dumb down" smart TVs --- paying someone to replace the motherboard with a dumb one (search online for "universal scaler board"; the "3663" is a common model), for those who don't want to do it themselves.
More than the manufacturers want to admit
I recommend anyone looking for a TV get a signage TV and a chromecast/pi/computer instead of a smart tv.
I noticed a lot of smart tvs are underspecced for their own operating system and lag horribly. My parents TV takes like 2 minutes to start.
I noticed a lot of smart tvs are underspecced for their own operating system and lag horribly. My parents TV takes like 2 minutes to start.
I'm in the market for a new tv. Any pros/cons of doing this? I'll use Kodi which is installed on an old laptop
This is nuts. We're moving soon and I thought I might get a bigger, 4K TV. We've been using the 720p plasma I bought in 2005 + a 1080p 47" from like 2009. Not bad by any stretch, but I'm curious how 4K would look on a larger display, and prices seem pretty good these days.
Then I read stuff like this. Can I still buy a dumb TV? I'll pay more. Who sells them still? Or, like, can I open this thing up and take out the wifi antenna or something? I'd block it at the router, but I hear they also try and connect to open APs. Awful trend.
Then I read stuff like this. Can I still buy a dumb TV? I'll pay more. Who sells them still? Or, like, can I open this thing up and take out the wifi antenna or something? I'd block it at the router, but I hear they also try and connect to open APs. Awful trend.
> Can I still buy a dumb TV?
Most of the big names sell displays designed for commercial use (e.g. the screens you see at entrances to shopping centers), which are basically just big monitors, so no smart stuff, other than maybe being able to turn it on/off remotely. However instead of a $800 TV you are probably talking $5000 - not that the tech is much different, it's just that it's designed for commercial use. Is not seeing ads worth that much more for you?
Most of the big names sell displays designed for commercial use (e.g. the screens you see at entrances to shopping centers), which are basically just big monitors, so no smart stuff, other than maybe being able to turn it on/off remotely. However instead of a $800 TV you are probably talking $5000 - not that the tech is much different, it's just that it's designed for commercial use. Is not seeing ads worth that much more for you?
Yes, of course.
A nice TV is a sizeable appliance that should live for 10-20 years. If I couldn't buy a fridge or microwave that didn't show ads on its smart display, I'd also be happy to pay a big premium for a commercial model.
I probably shouldn't give appliance companies ideas, but I'd give even odds that we'll be having that conversation within 10 years anyways.
A nice TV is a sizeable appliance that should live for 10-20 years. If I couldn't buy a fridge or microwave that didn't show ads on its smart display, I'd also be happy to pay a big premium for a commercial model.
I probably shouldn't give appliance companies ideas, but I'd give even odds that we'll be having that conversation within 10 years anyways.
Yeah I'll pay more for a TV that doesn't collect data or show ads. I'd probably also be willing to buy the cheaper model, open it, and remove the wifi antenna/hardware if blocking its MAC at the router doesn't work.
I have the 65" version of the same set, but I have not yet been subjected to any ads on the LG app screens. I did notice last month that ads will pop up (and interrupt in-progress programs) if you switch to the LG provided channels (starting at 200 I think). I rarely look at those (or any broadcast content for that matter) anyway. Mostly the set is used for Netflix/Amazon Prime/Apple TV.
This location has a pi-hole DNS for everything, so I may not bet getting all the ads they are trying to serve to me.
This location has a pi-hole DNS for everything, so I may not bet getting all the ads they are trying to serve to me.
Luckily my LG smart TV's wifi is so crappy that it cannot stay connected to the internet for more than a few minutes, so I just use my Apple TV and never have to deal with this BS.
My ~4 year old LG OLED had a firmware update last week and the Automatic Content Recognition license agreement option was clicked automatically - I.e. your TV will record and send clips of what you are watching (even your own home movies) and send it to a server to determine what the content is so that it can serve you personalised ads.
See here: consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/
LG seem to call it “Live Plus”. Just a heads up to anyone who might be unaware.
See here: consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/
LG seem to call it “Live Plus”. Just a heads up to anyone who might be unaware.
Was just shopping for a new TV. But previous threads here about Smart TV have me currently browsing Baba for just a panel+hdmi inputs, then I can connect my own "smart"
Look up "digital signage" displays. You'll pay a premium (of course), but often same panel, no tuner, no speaker, no smarts, just inputs.
It sure would be nice to live in a world where I don't have to put conscious effort into minimizing the surveillance teams' knowledge of me when I want to sit back and relax, let alone do something interesting. I'm old enough to remember when I wasn't constantly being micro-analyzed - at the time I didn't realize it was a luxurious lifestyle I led, but in retrospect I sure do miss it.
I know this site is full of ultra-capitalists, will you explain to me why I'm wrong for wanting to pay to not be tracked? Also, explain to me why the fruit of my existence is a resource to be harvested vs something I should be compensated for. I'm sure I'll be roasted super hard for this but very strong privacy laws seem to be a good idea - market effects be damned.
I know this site is full of ultra-capitalists, will you explain to me why I'm wrong for wanting to pay to not be tracked? Also, explain to me why the fruit of my existence is a resource to be harvested vs something I should be compensated for. I'm sure I'll be roasted super hard for this but very strong privacy laws seem to be a good idea - market effects be damned.
I'm with you, particularly because there really AREN'T alternatives. Most try to blame consumers here for "not paying more", but the reality is there's a healthy pseudo-monopoly in most spheres of tech that we interact with in one form or another and true competition is rare.
I've been thinking about that for a while now. Is there any legal basis for us to sue them? It's not only in smart TVs, but cellphones as well.
I do everything through my PS4, it's got the streaming apps I want, it's fast and reactive unlike the built in smart tv interface which is a bit slow and laggy.
And although it's only happened to me 2-3 times in the 3 years I had this Sony TV, I really, really resent having to reboot it because it's had a couple of weird glitches.
Samsung uses the same domains for everything on their smart TVs: the app remote, app store and ads. Despite how relatively usable their Tizen smart TV OS is having to turn off Pi-Hole every time they disappear an app from your home-screen to find it again in the App Store is frustrating. But at least what I paid for is mine...
Buy an nvidia shield and never look back
I am actually in the market for a new TV. Are all of them like this now? For me this is an absolute deal breaker. I would be willing to pay more specifically to not have this 'feature'. Can anyone suggest brands or TV lines that do not have this?
Manufacturers forget what they do best: make tv's
Once they don't see the revenue they're expecting and realize that if all TV's come this way, most of us would be willing to pay MORE for 'no ads'... we will be back to where we were 5 yrs. ago.
Once they don't see the revenue they're expecting and realize that if all TV's come this way, most of us would be willing to pay MORE for 'no ads'... we will be back to where we were 5 yrs. ago.
Buy a monitor. Hook it to an Apple TV, or some other reasonably well behaved source.
No subscription, price, or arrangement will defend you against ads. You uproot them and fundamentally reject them, or your children will be indoctrinated by global predators selling liquids oversaturated with sugar and gas.
>"Is there no escape from this stuff?"
There is. The last time I had TV acting as TV was some 15 years ago or so. Since then even if it is a TV it is hooked up to my computers as a monitor without its own access to the Internet.
There is. The last time I had TV acting as TV was some 15 years ago or so. Since then even if it is a TV it is hooked up to my computers as a monitor without its own access to the Internet.
Would be great if you could install Linux on your TV to avoid this sort of thing. Perhaps one day SamyGO will be usable on some TVs.
https://www.samygo.tv/
https://www.samygo.tv/
"My $25 drone stopped working!" "My free Facebook account was disabled!" "My $1,500 Popular Brand 55" OLED 4K TV has ads!"
I say again: 1 click mega e commerce has destroyed our concept of value.
I say again: 1 click mega e commerce has destroyed our concept of value.
For now I am just using large older monitor for TV. It would be nice to have something that can be guaranteed to not snoop on my life but for now I JUST CAN'T FIND ANY. Which is super frustrating.
On my 2019 E9 there is an option to turn off ads and another for content recommendations. Did it on day 1 and haven’t seen an ad on my TV since. Maybe this is different in the US?
For Android TV, you can configure NextDNS for tracking and ad blocking. I have the a xiaomi TV, the frequency at which it pings home is quite ludicrous.
This is pretty misleading, ads can be turned off from the settings.
It shouldn't be like that of course, but nobody "have to watch ads".
It shouldn't be like that of course, but nobody "have to watch ads".
Anyone with experience from owning a recent Sony smart tv? Is it equally as bad as LG and Samsung when it comes to ads?
I rarely see the main interface since I mostly stream with a ShieldTV, so I can't really say anything about ads there.
I did finally end up enabling wifi though. I kept it off for the first month but the TV got more and more aggressive about posting overlays that warned my that my TV did not have internet access. Even while streaming on an external device. It really took me out of the moment.
I probably would have returned it at that point but my car isn't big enough to fit it and any other TV would probably end up the same way or worse.
I did finally end up enabling wifi though. I kept it off for the first month but the TV got more and more aggressive about posting overlays that warned my that my TV did not have internet access. Even while streaming on an external device. It really took me out of the moment.
I probably would have returned it at that point but my car isn't big enough to fit it and any other TV would probably end up the same way or worse.
Oh, that is so wrong. I don't want to know about not having internet access unless I asked it do something that required internet access. That's even more user hostile than I thought we had debased ourselves.
I have a Sony X9500.
I run a dns blocker on my router so it may be serving me ads but if it is I don't know. From my research I don't think the X9500 serves ads.
I was quite pleased with upgrading to it from a dumb tv and cheap android tv box. It's faster than the android tv box I had, not suffered any bugs i saw on the android tv box. UI looks pretty much stock android tv, it has airplay and appletv which you don't get on android tv boxes.
I'm happy with the purchase so far.
I run a dns blocker on my router so it may be serving me ads but if it is I don't know. From my research I don't think the X9500 serves ads.
I was quite pleased with upgrading to it from a dumb tv and cheap android tv box. It's faster than the android tv box I had, not suffered any bugs i saw on the android tv box. UI looks pretty much stock android tv, it has airplay and appletv which you don't get on android tv boxes.
I'm happy with the purchase so far.
I’ve historical owned Samsung TVs and became so fed up with the bugs, the ads, and the uninstallable pre-installed apps. The most recent TV I purchased was a Sony X650H and I love it. It’s android based, the UI isn’t clunky, and I’ve never seen an Ad. I have no idea if they are tracking me behind the scenes. At this point I assume everyone is. But at least they aren’t ruining my viewing experience.
Only if you use the "smart" features. If you don't want ads, get a Shield or Apple TV.
You wouldn't accept a TV that just took 15 seconds to respond to a button push. Why accept this?
So network filter on your router maybe the best solution. Not only for TV ads but annoying app ads.
Is this US-only thing? I have an LG and a Samsung TV, both less than 4 years old. Neither do this. I'm inside the EU, so I wonder if GDPR is protecting me from the misbehavior.
Failing that, I guess, there's always the PiHole DNS shenanigans. But you shouldn't have to be the IT guy/gal just to help your next-door neighbor watch their damn TV.
Failing that, I guess, there's always the PiHole DNS shenanigans. But you shouldn't have to be the IT guy/gal just to help your next-door neighbor watch their damn TV.
I live in Germany. My Samsung (less than 1 year old) serves Ads even if I'm watching videos on my USB. Their Support denied this and claimed Netflix is showing Ads, but they update Eula software later to ask for consent.
It seems that they have tried this before.
https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Samsung-Smart-TVs-bl...
It's not. I'm in The Netherlands and last year my fairly new Samsung TV started serving me ads. I was so pissed off, if the TV had still been under warranty I would have returned it. I have now pi-holed my entire network. My next TV will be a dumb screen.
Yet he owns an Xbox... doesn't that cram ads in the menus as well?
What's the best "dumb" TV? With no Wi-Fi or apps on it.
Anything by Sceptre. Dirt cheap, good quality. 4K. Can't go wrong.
This is why you only connect to your TV through a pi-hole network.
I've just checked - no ads on my 2020 LG CX(yet?).
If you bought it from costco.. you should take it back.
Just don’t connect your tv to the internet. Easy peasy.
I still have my circa 2007 television. It doesn't spy on me, and I don't care that they've gotten better. I spend most of my time in front of my 3 display iMac anyway.
never give your smart TV the wifi password or a connection to a 100/1000Mbps Ethernet port that will give it a DHCP address.
Or a modern hdmi cable as they have ethernet?
I'm aware HDMI can carry it, but how many people are plugging their TVs into things that issue them dhcp leases, and act as a gateway/router for a path to the internet? Probably some, it seems like a feature that comcast or others would build into cable boxes, but not many (yet).
Did you ever wonder why your TV was only $1500?
Should it have costed $5000 instead?
can't wait until cars start having ads on their infotainment screen while you're stopped at a stop light
Only if you connect it to the internet.
Pinhole whole home ad blocking!!!
I'm in Germany and have the LG B7 Oled. After the last update it wanted me to review the settings for EULA agreements etc. It defaulted to disagree and I just never set it to agree.
I've still never seen an ad on this TV. Guess GDPR counts for something!
I've still never seen an ad on this TV. Guess GDPR counts for something!
The fix is better laws as they must be lacking because my LG also have ads but they are opt-in. Guess it's because my TV is Nordic, not US.
Any idea what soundbar that is ? Is that a Sonos Arc ?
Looks like it to me. I just unwrapped one in white, and the perforations on the front/top look like a match.
How you liking yours ? Got the rears or sub as well ?
I've literally had it for three hours, but my first impressions are:
• The bass isn't as good as I'd been led to believe. If I were still a bachelor, I would get the sub (I didn't get either the sub or rear speakers)
• The audio sync is blessedly ok for me. I had read some horror stories about this and was worried. I plug an iPhone/iPad into an projector via an Apple HDMI adaptor, and I use AirPlay for the sound. It's a split-second late, but it's acceptable for me. I may even be able to add some latency to my projector to fix this.
• It seems like it really has to be sitting on top of a flat surface. I was planning to wall-mount mine, and right now I have it sitting centered on top of an old rectangular subwoofer. It doesn't sound great that way, but when I put the box it came in underneath it, it sounds much better. It seems to really change the acoustics, and I'm not sure how it'll sound wall-mounted, with nothing below it. I plan to call the company to inquire about this. The difference is very noticeable.
• There is something loose in the speaker that makes it sound like either a cone is being blown out, or is already blown. Based on all their backorder/shipping delays (and what I've seen in forums), I'm guessing they've had Q/A issues in manufacturing. Hopefully this can be fixed without too much hassle.
• Setup was really easy. It's my first Sonos, and I had it set up in about 10 minutes, including calibration (which seems to make a pretty big difference, though it could be all in my head).
Feel free to contact me via email (in profile) if you want to hear as the story unfolds. I've been looking forward to getting this for a long time, and I'm cautiously optimistic so far.
• The bass isn't as good as I'd been led to believe. If I were still a bachelor, I would get the sub (I didn't get either the sub or rear speakers)
• The audio sync is blessedly ok for me. I had read some horror stories about this and was worried. I plug an iPhone/iPad into an projector via an Apple HDMI adaptor, and I use AirPlay for the sound. It's a split-second late, but it's acceptable for me. I may even be able to add some latency to my projector to fix this.
• It seems like it really has to be sitting on top of a flat surface. I was planning to wall-mount mine, and right now I have it sitting centered on top of an old rectangular subwoofer. It doesn't sound great that way, but when I put the box it came in underneath it, it sounds much better. It seems to really change the acoustics, and I'm not sure how it'll sound wall-mounted, with nothing below it. I plan to call the company to inquire about this. The difference is very noticeable.
• There is something loose in the speaker that makes it sound like either a cone is being blown out, or is already blown. Based on all their backorder/shipping delays (and what I've seen in forums), I'm guessing they've had Q/A issues in manufacturing. Hopefully this can be fixed without too much hassle.
• Setup was really easy. It's my first Sonos, and I had it set up in about 10 minutes, including calibration (which seems to make a pretty big difference, though it could be all in my head).
Feel free to contact me via email (in profile) if you want to hear as the story unfolds. I've been looking forward to getting this for a long time, and I'm cautiously optimistic so far.
I actually went in for the Arc and Rears. Sub was just too expensive. The other option I considered was Vizio Elevate. But Sonos looks better, is wireless and probably won't have the bugs of Vizio.
One thing is that I have tall ceilings so haven't heard any height atmos effects. Would love to stay in touch to compare notes :)
One thing is that I have tall ceilings so haven't heard any height atmos effects. Would love to stay in touch to compare notes :)
This guy overpaid by a lot... I have a VIZIO QLED that is 65 inches that cost like $450 and looks like reality
To play devils advocate, without ads and DRM stuff, how are artists supposed to make money?
Another point is that you can’t expect to get that caliber of TV for that price without ads.
If you don’t want ads, don’t buy the TV. Not that TV anyway. Just like no one is entitled to getting paid for their art, no one is entitled to entertainment.
Another point is that you can’t expect to get that caliber of TV for that price without ads.
If you don’t want ads, don’t buy the TV. Not that TV anyway. Just like no one is entitled to getting paid for their art, no one is entitled to entertainment.
Hmmm? For digital content, I pay a fee each month of which a certain amount is supposed to go towards the artists.
Netflix Canada $14.99/month
Disney Plus $11.99/month
Amazon Prime $7.99/month
Spotify $9.99/month
For cable TV content which I don't have, The channels run ads. Which makes the channel owner money who then is supposed to pay the artists.
If the artists aren't getting anything from that, that's a problem between them and their distributor. A problem that isn't going to magically get fixed by a TV OS running ads, of which the artist very likely never sees a cent of either.
Lets say Netflix was free, and they ran ads in their content. Would I have a problem with that? No, they are providing free content and I would not mind watching ads. Or how about cable TV? People are already paying for Channels and getting blasted with Ads every 15 min or so, why should the TV OS "layer" Ads on top of Ads?
I own a LG TV... it's not allow to access my network because of Ad "Layers" and I run everything through an Apple TV. At least that way, I see no Ads on paid content, and just 1 layer of ads on free content.
For cable TV content which I don't have, The channels run ads. Which makes the channel owner money who then is supposed to pay the artists.
If the artists aren't getting anything from that, that's a problem between them and their distributor. A problem that isn't going to magically get fixed by a TV OS running ads, of which the artist very likely never sees a cent of either.
Lets say Netflix was free, and they ran ads in their content. Would I have a problem with that? No, they are providing free content and I would not mind watching ads. Or how about cable TV? People are already paying for Channels and getting blasted with Ads every 15 min or so, why should the TV OS "layer" Ads on top of Ads?
I own a LG TV... it's not allow to access my network because of Ad "Layers" and I run everything through an Apple TV. At least that way, I see no Ads on paid content, and just 1 layer of ads on free content.
I’m sort of saying two things, that’s what I get for playing devils advocate.
That’s how they’re getting away with it, by not interrupting content. I don’t think the masses are bothered by ads unless it interrupts their subscription content. If you put an ad on their App Store, it’s going to feel like another ad they just ignore.
For people who aren’t running an ad blocker, the ads become invisible unless they matter to them. It’s a weird trick but everyone can do it. That’s why people aren’t so bothered by the ad tech intrusions, they’re not even paying attention.
If that ever interrupts paid content, people will complain. But if you put it on the App Store, a little banner ad, it’s gonna be ignored, like it’s happening now.
That’s how they’re getting away with it, by not interrupting content. I don’t think the masses are bothered by ads unless it interrupts their subscription content. If you put an ad on their App Store, it’s going to feel like another ad they just ignore.
For people who aren’t running an ad blocker, the ads become invisible unless they matter to them. It’s a weird trick but everyone can do it. That’s why people aren’t so bothered by the ad tech intrusions, they’re not even paying attention.
If that ever interrupts paid content, people will complain. But if you put it on the App Store, a little banner ad, it’s gonna be ignored, like it’s happening now.
Artists are not entitled to make a living, and certainly not at the cost of ever encroaching adtech.
"Just don't buy the tv" would be a valid objection if the fact that advertising was included in the set was made abundantly clear at the point of sale, and if there were adfree alternatives readily available. Neither seems to be the case.
"Just don't buy the tv" would be a valid objection if the fact that advertising was included in the set was made abundantly clear at the point of sale, and if there were adfree alternatives readily available. Neither seems to be the case.
You sound like you are confusing YouTube content creators that earn from ad rev share, vs studio content creators that get paid by a studio. The networks make money from their ad sales that they then use to pay the producers.
> Another point is that you can’t expect to get that caliber of TV for that price without ads.
Just want to understand the argument. Not using any smart tv at the moment, maybe in the future, we'll see.
So we should expect ads on expensive TVs now? USD 1500 is very expensive for me at least. I was expecting something good but cheaper to be subsidized by ads, not the really expensive ones.
Just want to understand the argument. Not using any smart tv at the moment, maybe in the future, we'll see.
So we should expect ads on expensive TVs now? USD 1500 is very expensive for me at least. I was expecting something good but cheaper to be subsidized by ads, not the really expensive ones.
Am I ever tempted to get a bigger, higher-def, TV? Sure, but then I remember that they're all "smart" and realize I don't actually have a problem with how I'm watching TV now.
I don't want smart anything in my house. My lights are hardwired to a switch on the wall. My washer and drier need me to turn dials and push buttons and go ding when they're done. My fridge has no microprocessor in it.
I honestly don't understand people who want all this internet connected garbage. These things weren't broke, they don't need fixing!