FiiO M3K review – a pocketable-high quality audio player (2018)(accessibleaudio.co)
accessibleaudio.co
FiiO M3K review – a pocketable-high quality audio player (2018)
https://accessibleaudio.co/2018/12/27/fiio-m3k-review-a-pocketable-high-quality-audio-player/
158 comments
I think a lot of consumers are going to wake up in a few years and feel ripped off when their smart thermostat or smart lock or smart lights are no longer supported and have lost the functionality they’ve paid extra for.
I miss the days when you pay for some set of functionality and it stays with the device for the duration of ownership. The standard seems to be to buy on one set of value propositions and to find them degraded over time (see Peloton eliminating Apple Watch support for all exercises but cycling this week as a recent example). I think this is what makes Tesla special with regular OTA updates increasing functionality.
I miss the days when you pay for some set of functionality and it stays with the device for the duration of ownership. The standard seems to be to buy on one set of value propositions and to find them degraded over time (see Peloton eliminating Apple Watch support for all exercises but cycling this week as a recent example). I think this is what makes Tesla special with regular OTA updates increasing functionality.
I bought some FEIT rgb smartbulbs at costco (there were on sale I think it was $5 or $10 each) but yes I don't like the outsourced service (tuya), even though I normally turn them off with a switch. I even wrote FEIT suggesting they make a slightly more expensive hobby version where you can still overwrite the esp32 firmware, etc so you don't need this "free" service and could connect the directly to say something like home assistant. I think I would willing to pay something (maybe $5) just for the keys to overwrite the firmware, like the license you have to buy for your raspberry pi to use the mpeg-2.
After-sales profits are the dream they're chasing.
That's why it'll be increasingly hard to get a dumb TV, because after-sales profits keep going without having to make anything.
That's why it'll be increasingly hard to get a dumb TV, because after-sales profits keep going without having to make anything.
This is absolutely why I refuse to purchase any smart home products that aren't fully functional within the Apple Home app. If something cannot work offline and without a central service then it doesn't belong in my home.
I think that's the primary value proposition for Apple HomeKit and I'm really quite sad that more companies, and Apple themselves, don't put more effort into supporting it.
I think that's the primary value proposition for Apple HomeKit and I'm really quite sad that more companies, and Apple themselves, don't put more effort into supporting it.
I am an admitted Apple fanboy, but even I recognize that Apple is an offender in this field. We have tons of old Apple iPhones and iPads that had functionality that no longer works - app developers stopped supporting the only iOS that can be loaded on the device. It is only a matter of time before this happens to HomeKit too.
Especially with the rising cancer known as SaaS. Soon you'll need to be paying $10/mo for your thermostat to work, and you'll need to fork over another $200 every other year to upgrade the hardware.
And then the company will be purchased by a FAANG and you will immediately be forced into using new accounts and new workflows for the same functionality (yes, suddenly thermostats have workflows now...)
It's a small price to pay for the new Amazon Lord of the RingsTM television event where everyone's heaters will kick on at max whenever there's fire on screen.
This is actually an improvement. It aligns the incentives of the guys making your thermostat's web UI. Otherwise your thermostat wouldn't get new features and security updates
No, I want security updates without surveillance, without lock-in and without a monthly fee.
Sounds like too much to ask?
This is what Linux distributions has been providing for decades. And my 486 PC was less powerful than some thermostat.
Sounds like too much to ask?
This is what Linux distributions has been providing for decades. And my 486 PC was less powerful than some thermostat.
SaaS gets hated on too much here. The incentives work out as well for desktop software - there's no longer the incentive to add new features to justify customers purchasing a new version (or withhold features until the new version). The problem I've seen is that it almost always comes with a big price hike when compared to an alternative of upgrading every 3 years. The only exception to this I can think of is Office 365 which still remains a deal.
Its a fucking thermostat.
I don't need the company to be bankrolling a $2mm/yr AI team so that the thermostat can try to make better guess about when I want to turn on the heat.
I don't need the company to be bankrolling a $2mm/yr AI team so that the thermostat can try to make better guess about when I want to turn on the heat.
You don't, but they do. By analysing how you use thermostats they may figure you need an AC and sell your profile to AC makers.
I totally agree. My personal philosophy has been to only buy OT devices that fail/stop being supported to being manual and not fail to being e-waste.
and the more built-in and capital intensive, the worse it will be. It's not so bad to have an internet radio die, as has happened with several architectures thus far, but it's painful when there's real money involved.
I always marvel at the people who built new homes with subfloor heating systems who usually have a closet full of manifolds, valves, custom PCBs-in-a-box, none of which will be available in a decade or two.
In addition, even if well supported (like Tesla), there's a number of product families that are priced like long term investments (electric cars, solar panel/battery setups) but have shorter term PC-style turnovers in technology. They may still work, but will be obsolete.
I always marvel at the people who built new homes with subfloor heating systems who usually have a closet full of manifolds, valves, custom PCBs-in-a-box, none of which will be available in a decade or two.
In addition, even if well supported (like Tesla), there's a number of product families that are priced like long term investments (electric cars, solar panel/battery setups) but have shorter term PC-style turnovers in technology. They may still work, but will be obsolete.
Recommend reading "Ghost Fleet" where even your toilet stops working when we go to war with a country that manufactures many of our electronic components.
When you get bored, list all of your connected home and personal items that rely on wired, cable, wifi, bluetooth, rfid, infrared, cellular, etc. Put them in a spreadsheet.
Then you will not be as surprised when your lighting system, refrigerator, or washer/dryer is hit with ransomware.
When you get bored, list all of your connected home and personal items that rely on wired, cable, wifi, bluetooth, rfid, infrared, cellular, etc. Put them in a spreadsheet.
Then you will not be as surprised when your lighting system, refrigerator, or washer/dryer is hit with ransomware.
Subfloor heating systems aren’t just a water boiler in the basement and bunch of dumb water tubes?
I've seen some that most definitely were not, usually along with a bunch of other high-efficiency tech. To be fair, I've seen minimum systems also, so it can be done.
My general take on home design is simple-passive-accessible. Someone in the future will thank you.
It's worth poking around manufacturer's websites. http://www.pexheat.com/Catalog/Controls
and consider the lifespan of a house vs. the lifespan of the subsystems. My general take is that the more built-in and difficult to modify it is, the madder someone will be in 50 years. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm no fan of radiant heating systems having seen the issues of parts availability, latency, the tearing up of floors for repair,and a strong preference for point sources of heat (gas stoves for example), so it might show through in the comment.
My general take on home design is simple-passive-accessible. Someone in the future will thank you.
It's worth poking around manufacturer's websites. http://www.pexheat.com/Catalog/Controls
and consider the lifespan of a house vs. the lifespan of the subsystems. My general take is that the more built-in and difficult to modify it is, the madder someone will be in 50 years. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm no fan of radiant heating systems having seen the issues of parts availability, latency, the tearing up of floors for repair,and a strong preference for point sources of heat (gas stoves for example), so it might show through in the comment.
Yeah I don't think the person you're replying to has any experience in building control systems. I used to be an energy engineer and I would predict sub-floor heating owners will have no real issues here.
The point does stand generally though. I have had to replace entire HVACs because the coolant is no longer available or because the cost to replace a certain component is too high because the parts are no longer readily available.
I think the only solution is to try to build as minimally as possible. A huge amount can be accomplished through passive heating and cooling (windows placement and size, site location and angle toward prevailing winds and morning / afternoon sun, etc etc). We are too often reliant on technology to allow us to ignore these things and we do so at our peril.
I think the only solution is to try to build as minimally as possible. A huge amount can be accomplished through passive heating and cooling (windows placement and size, site location and angle toward prevailing winds and morning / afternoon sun, etc etc). We are too often reliant on technology to allow us to ignore these things and we do so at our peril.
>experience in building control systems
lol. If you mean 'design', you'd be surprised. Admittedly, I'm not aware of the full array of residential heating control systems, but I've sure seen some over-complex ones.
lol. If you mean 'design', you'd be surprised. Admittedly, I'm not aware of the full array of residential heating control systems, but I've sure seen some over-complex ones.
>> I recently got a baby monitor ... no security implications.
There’s one somewhere near me that broadcasts crystal clear audio on 49.990MHz - right smack on the edge of the 6 metre band in very crisp 15khz wide FM. This audio quality beats all my local ham radio buddies. I can hear a pin drop in their house.
I’ve no idea who’s house, briefly before the pandemic i made a reasonable effort to track down the house and let them know, it’s not a house in my street, no one has the young children that can be heard.
Every time I’m on 6m i always see it on my band scope, 20db over.
There’s one somewhere near me that broadcasts crystal clear audio on 49.990MHz - right smack on the edge of the 6 metre band in very crisp 15khz wide FM. This audio quality beats all my local ham radio buddies. I can hear a pin drop in their house.
I’ve no idea who’s house, briefly before the pandemic i made a reasonable effort to track down the house and let them know, it’s not a house in my street, no one has the young children that can be heard.
Every time I’m on 6m i always see it on my band scope, 20db over.
I don't recommend you do it, but engineer in me is trying to find technical solutions to all problems. If you can hear them presumably they can hear you on the same frequency. So you could get in contact by broadcasting on the same frequency. You can already hear them on the radio, so if they hear you on a child monitor that would be a weird-but-functional walkie talkie setup.
Depending on where you are, it's possible that stress from knowing that their child monitor is unsecured is much higher than the risk of anyone within broadcast range abusing the vulnerability. Moreover, it's possible that whatever they replace the device with will have more significant problems to worry about. For example cloud vulnerable to the whole world instead of enthusiasts with radios in a small local area.
Depending on where you are, it's possible that stress from knowing that their child monitor is unsecured is much higher than the risk of anyone within broadcast range abusing the vulnerability. Moreover, it's possible that whatever they replace the device with will have more significant problems to worry about. For example cloud vulnerable to the whole world instead of enthusiasts with radios in a small local area.
> I'm increasingly appreciating "appliance" electronics. Things that do one thing well.
Plus dedicated physical buttons! FiiO provides a rotary volume control on their flagship $1000 player, https://audiosolace.com/2020/09/04/fiio-m15-review/
Plus dedicated physical buttons! FiiO provides a rotary volume control on their flagship $1000 player, https://audiosolace.com/2020/09/04/fiio-m15-review/
They also put a rotary volume control on my external DAC/headphone amp that cost a tiny fraction. And I must say I love that now I don't have to choose between two volume levels which are either a bit too quiet or a bit too loud.
And that no software automatically dials back the volume every 10-15 minutes with a notification telling me that it's convinced I'm damaging my ears.
And that no software automatically dials back the volume every 10-15 minutes with a notification telling me that it's convinced I'm damaging my ears.
>no security implications
It's broadcasting video through some unknown protocol, are you sure it's (properly) encrypting it?
It’s sounds like it’s closed loop, and not connected to the internet/WiFi. I would say that makes it thousands of times less likely to be hacked, even if there was some fundamental issue with the encryption.
Even a fully unencrypted local video feed would require someone to park outside your house for the duration of the broadcast to capture it all. Meanwhile, in the cloud, user data sometimes gets dumped into unsecured S3 buckets that anyone in the world could access. Even if the video is properly secured, there's no guarantee the service in question is not keeping it indefinitely for marketing/machine-learning/other purposes and it eventually leaks in a security breach.
I was recently shopping for bicycle power meters because I want to know exactly how bad I am at pretending cars don't exist (I'm slow, folks). There's been an explosion in direct-to-consumer companies making them. I was looking at a self-installed crank strain gauge model where the tradeoff is that in exchange for your own DIY skills and time it costs less than half what pedal meters would cost. But I found out the company folded, the app isn't supported anymore meaning you can't calibrate the unit, so you might end up being unable to do anything with one of the units you happen to come across. Brutal!
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/02/watteam-powerbeat-gen2-p...
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/02/watteam-powerbeat-gen2-p...
I feel like this every time I use my cameras. They do one thing and do it exceedingly well. They feel like _tools_ rather than gadgets or devices.
>No software, no app, no security implications. I can give it to someone else and it'll work for them too.
Is it like a wired connection between the Camera and the Monitor?
Is it like a wired connection between the Camera and the Monitor?
I'm still using my Sansa Clip+ which I bought in 2010. Fantastic hardware at a fantastic price point, and it supports Rockbox (if you want to): https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaClip#Sansa_Clip_43.
A device such as this barely obsoletes as long as the audio codecs can still be handled; you can easily switch batteries on these relatively "simple" devices, too.
A device such as this barely obsoletes as long as the audio codecs can still be handled; you can easily switch batteries on these relatively "simple" devices, too.
I live by my Sansa Clip Zip. It's amazing that nothing as good has been released since. It's super light, with rockbox it works extremely well. Sound quality is better than my phone (pixel 4a). Only gripe is that it doesn't support ext2,3,4 or similar and I'm forced to use fat32.
Is UDF an option?
I got the FiiO M6 recently and am mildly disappointed. The audio sounds fine to me and it plays all the file formats I care about, but it lacks some features I thought would be standard at this point.
The most glaring omission is the built in player has no concept of a music queue. You cannot decide to play a new song while listening; the only way to queue up music is to create a playlist ahead of time.
You can't install new apps via the Play Store from what I can tell. By default it whitelists what can be installed over a usb cable. Luckily you can remove the whitelist and install any apk you want by clicking on a particular page in the settings 6 times (iirfc). I ended up installing Poweramp this way and it turned my opinion of the purchase from a massive disappointment into a mild one.
Other complaints are that they advertise Airplay compatibility but it turns out it's for receiving only, not sending. So you can send music from your iPhone to the FiiO and have it send it out from there using the FiiO's DAC. I was hoping to actually use Airplay to send to my home receiver from the FiiO, but that isn't possible. I use Bluetooth instead, but the range isn't great and when I scroll through my library while music plays I get skipping (possibly because the Poweramp app is hogging cpu, but again, the built in app for playing music is a non-starter for me).
I would really love for there to be a dedicated music player that went above and beyond in terms of user experience as well as audio quality, but for me the FiiO M6 at least isn't it.
The most glaring omission is the built in player has no concept of a music queue. You cannot decide to play a new song while listening; the only way to queue up music is to create a playlist ahead of time.
You can't install new apps via the Play Store from what I can tell. By default it whitelists what can be installed over a usb cable. Luckily you can remove the whitelist and install any apk you want by clicking on a particular page in the settings 6 times (iirfc). I ended up installing Poweramp this way and it turned my opinion of the purchase from a massive disappointment into a mild one.
Other complaints are that they advertise Airplay compatibility but it turns out it's for receiving only, not sending. So you can send music from your iPhone to the FiiO and have it send it out from there using the FiiO's DAC. I was hoping to actually use Airplay to send to my home receiver from the FiiO, but that isn't possible. I use Bluetooth instead, but the range isn't great and when I scroll through my library while music plays I get skipping (possibly because the Poweramp app is hogging cpu, but again, the built in app for playing music is a non-starter for me).
I would really love for there to be a dedicated music player that went above and beyond in terms of user experience as well as audio quality, but for me the FiiO M6 at least isn't it.
The play store requires a google account, and the manufacturer may have not wanted to go through with that. It’s also possible as you said that many Android apps aren’t optimized enough to run on the device. People may complain if candy crush can’t run.
I would think that Android is overkill for a player like this and running a full OS would lower audio quality, but everything is so powerful these days it may not make a practical difference.
I would think that Android is overkill for a player like this and running a full OS would lower audio quality, but everything is so powerful these days it may not make a practical difference.
> dedicated music player that went above and beyond in terms of user experience
This is why Rockbox exists, which is available for the M3K: https://rockbox.org
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26871084
This is why Rockbox exists, which is available for the M3K: https://rockbox.org
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26871084
I own one of these. Using it is the physical manifestation of delayed gratification and I love it.
- Getting new music or Podcasts requires plugging it in to a real computer, transferring files, and updating the media library. It takes a while.
- Without a touchscreen you can't "scrub" through files and must fast-forward with the buttons. Fast-forwarding to your place in a 90-minute podcast takes a while.
- If you plug it in while in the middle of a podcast, or reboot it, it will lose your place many times. It has a setting to not do this but it is unreliable.
- Due to the above two points I really got in the habit of ensuring I had enough time to listen to a full show in one shot, and that made me subscribe to less podcasts. This is a plus.
- You cannot view show notes for a podcast or click on links in those notes. You must sit down at a PC to do this.
- This device helped me to not take my phone with me everywhere. That's a plus.
- It doesn't "fast charge" or anything. The battery indicator is imprecise so sometimes it will shut off while you're using it. The battery lasts forever so that's OK.
You have to want to use something like this. It is better for you brain than a smartphone. I encourage everyone to try it. It is high quality, built well, and inexpensive, so very much worth a shot. If you want a bluetooth and USB-C version, the Fiio M5 is also good.
- Getting new music or Podcasts requires plugging it in to a real computer, transferring files, and updating the media library. It takes a while.
- Without a touchscreen you can't "scrub" through files and must fast-forward with the buttons. Fast-forwarding to your place in a 90-minute podcast takes a while.
- If you plug it in while in the middle of a podcast, or reboot it, it will lose your place many times. It has a setting to not do this but it is unreliable.
- Due to the above two points I really got in the habit of ensuring I had enough time to listen to a full show in one shot, and that made me subscribe to less podcasts. This is a plus.
- You cannot view show notes for a podcast or click on links in those notes. You must sit down at a PC to do this.
- This device helped me to not take my phone with me everywhere. That's a plus.
- It doesn't "fast charge" or anything. The battery indicator is imprecise so sometimes it will shut off while you're using it. The battery lasts forever so that's OK.
You have to want to use something like this. It is better for you brain than a smartphone. I encourage everyone to try it. It is high quality, built well, and inexpensive, so very much worth a shot. If you want a bluetooth and USB-C version, the Fiio M5 is also good.
Have you considered moving into sales? Because you just turned all the downsides into (faked) strengths.
As I see it, none of what you listed has practical benefits. That's why we have Spotify and all the software to overcome these drawbacks.
Perhaps "slow tech" is a thing, but certainly not widespread or advantageous.
As I see it, none of what you listed has practical benefits. That's why we have Spotify and all the software to overcome these drawbacks.
Perhaps "slow tech" is a thing, but certainly not widespread or advantageous.
I'm not in sales. I'm a devops/sysadmin person. And I didn't mean to do a sales pitch, sorry.
The downsides all wind up being worth it to me because I'm starting from the premise of "I want my smartphone as far away from me as often as possible". It allows me to decouple the primary reason I'd carry my smartphone, and carry something less unwanted instead. I'm guessing you can figure out the reasons; feeds, notifications, alerts, an operating system built for annoyance/addiction that is not Free Software, etc.
Really, though, I encourage you to try it out. Think about how much more time you had to think while walking your dog or something 20 years ago.
The downsides all wind up being worth it to me because I'm starting from the premise of "I want my smartphone as far away from me as often as possible". It allows me to decouple the primary reason I'd carry my smartphone, and carry something less unwanted instead. I'm guessing you can figure out the reasons; feeds, notifications, alerts, an operating system built for annoyance/addiction that is not Free Software, etc.
Really, though, I encourage you to try it out. Think about how much more time you had to think while walking your dog or something 20 years ago.
> Think about how much more time you had to think while walking your dog or something 20 years ago.
This is an excellent point. I recently mused about how all my ideas for writing articles come in the shower, and your comment made me realize it's because I have nothing to distract me.
I'll try removing distractions/being bored more often, thanks!
This is an excellent point. I recently mused about how all my ideas for writing articles come in the shower, and your comment made me realize it's because I have nothing to distract me.
I'll try removing distractions/being bored more often, thanks!
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe he is in sales for this company.
I use an old iPod classic with a flash memory upgrade for offline audio listening and was considering this device because of perceived audio quality. From your description it sounds like this device is in the class of alibaba junk. It sounds like the software was an afterthought, fair enough. How does the audio quality compare to things like an iPhone/iPod etc?
That's why the software can be replaced with Rockbox, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26876247
Audio/DAC quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26871983
Audio/DAC quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26871983
The sound quality (via Sony MDR-7506) is comparable to an iPod. Detailed and clear. It can get very loud and drive much nicer headphones than mine. It loads and plays FLACs and other large files much faster than the iPod can because the iPod is 20 years old and doesn't have the horsepower.
The software, honestly, is not nearly as bad as "alibaba junk". It is just fine. The iPod's software is more thought-out and consistent. The Fiio software is much more user friendly than Rockbox though. It responds well and hardly ever crashes. It has all the settings you'd expect and then some. It will be annoying if you expect perfection, but it never skips tracks on its own, the buttons always do what you want, settings aren't reset on you. The M5 is more fiddly than the M3K but I usually use the M5 anyway. I'm willing to tolerate the less-than-perfect software.
The software, honestly, is not nearly as bad as "alibaba junk". It is just fine. The iPod's software is more thought-out and consistent. The Fiio software is much more user friendly than Rockbox though. It responds well and hardly ever crashes. It has all the settings you'd expect and then some. It will be annoying if you expect perfection, but it never skips tracks on its own, the buttons always do what you want, settings aren't reset on you. The M5 is more fiddly than the M3K but I usually use the M5 anyway. I'm willing to tolerate the less-than-perfect software.
I genuinely cannot tell the difference between hi-fi audio and regular audio.
My brain says this audio is certainly better since I paid a lot of money for it, but my ears are in disagreement. Perhaps it’s because I suffer from tinnitus.
Is anyone else in the same boat?
My brain says this audio is certainly better since I paid a lot of money for it, but my ears are in disagreement. Perhaps it’s because I suffer from tinnitus.
Is anyone else in the same boat?
So far, the highest frequency that we've been able to determine that humans can process is about 28khz. That's about 1/3rd of an octave above what the limits of CD and most streaming services provide.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range#Humans
"Old-fashioned" CD, when mastered with modern noise shaping, gets super-close to the fundamental limits of human hearing. Furthermore, as the above link points out, older people often can't hear above 15khz. Thus, if you're older, you might not be capable of hearing the difference between a CD and the same mix on BluRay or DVD.
FWIW: There's a lot of psuedoscience in the audiophile market. Things like DSD and sampling rates about 96khz make little sense outside of the recording studio. (This is because the absolute upper limit of human hearing is 28khz. 96khz exceeds the human hearing range by almost an octave.)
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range#Humans
"Old-fashioned" CD, when mastered with modern noise shaping, gets super-close to the fundamental limits of human hearing. Furthermore, as the above link points out, older people often can't hear above 15khz. Thus, if you're older, you might not be capable of hearing the difference between a CD and the same mix on BluRay or DVD.
FWIW: There's a lot of psuedoscience in the audiophile market. Things like DSD and sampling rates about 96khz make little sense outside of the recording studio. (This is because the absolute upper limit of human hearing is 28khz. 96khz exceeds the human hearing range by almost an octave.)
You're confusing frequency and resolution. Just because a set of music fits in a certain frequency range doesn't mean that all representations of it are equal. For example, consider this in graphical form:
https://i.imgur.com/ZgU1bgI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RZpbyyI.jpg
Both have the same 24-bit color space. Both have the same blackest black and whitest white. Both have the same resolution. And yet one preserves more detail and information. This is the nature of lossy compression.
https://i.imgur.com/ZgU1bgI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RZpbyyI.jpg
Both have the same 24-bit color space. Both have the same blackest black and whitest white. Both have the same resolution. And yet one preserves more detail and information. This is the nature of lossy compression.
The sampling rate and frequency range are tied together though. The Nyquist rate says the sampling rate must be 2x the bandwidth. If you sample at 96KHz, the most bandwidth you'd get is sound waves up to 48KHz and still be able to accurately reproduce them. However, if human hearing taps out at 28KHz, then you could sample up to 56KHz and still reliably reproduce the same sound.
At that point, the only real advantage to 96khz is that it pushes any potential distortion out of the audible range.
But going above 96khz or DSD is silly outside of the recording studio.
But going above 96khz or DSD is silly outside of the recording studio.
I went down this rabbit-hole a few years ago. Had some FiiOs, expensive in-ears, and lots of FLACs.
I did hear a difference, but it's not obvious. It's not a "OMG WHOA" when you put on the latest crisp FLAC compared to whatever streamed from Apple Music. On some tracks, the difference is nil. But on the occasional track, the hi-fi version is just clearer end-to-end. And on a few tracks, you will hear tiny little things you'd never heard before, and this can be actually exhilarating -- like, there will be a track I've listened to 100 times, and now suddenly I hear the bit of sticky-spit sound as the singer opens his mouth right before starting to sing... and that instantly makes it like you're standing right next to the microphone. Sounds silly, but it's cool.
I did hear a difference, but it's not obvious. It's not a "OMG WHOA" when you put on the latest crisp FLAC compared to whatever streamed from Apple Music. On some tracks, the difference is nil. But on the occasional track, the hi-fi version is just clearer end-to-end. And on a few tracks, you will hear tiny little things you'd never heard before, and this can be actually exhilarating -- like, there will be a track I've listened to 100 times, and now suddenly I hear the bit of sticky-spit sound as the singer opens his mouth right before starting to sing... and that instantly makes it like you're standing right next to the microphone. Sounds silly, but it's cool.
I recently bought a fiio fd5 iems and I really do like the sound. Way better than the $30 earbuds I have around.
Unfortunately they're just not comfortable enough to wear all day.
So day-to-day I use mmx 300's for everything else.
I did have to buy one of those "demonstration CDs" and test stuff out. I wonder how many people do that?
Unfortunately they're just not comfortable enough to wear all day.
So day-to-day I use mmx 300's for everything else.
I did have to buy one of those "demonstration CDs" and test stuff out. I wonder how many people do that?
I can tell the difference between $30 headphones and $300 headphones, you could probably tell too. But between $300 and $3000? I wouldn't trust myself.
I think to even try, you need to set up an A/B system and precisely match levels. If you don't match levels, the louder one will always sound better.
I've tried it before, but it's hard to match levels. It's even harder if you're swapping headphones or earbuds.
I think to even try, you need to set up an A/B system and precisely match levels. If you don't match levels, the louder one will always sound better.
I've tried it before, but it's hard to match levels. It's even harder if you're swapping headphones or earbuds.
Another thing to add to the siblings pointing out that headphones/speakers make a bigger difference than AMPs/DACs/etc.: the room also makes an outsized difference in the case of speakers, even to untrained ears. So I'd say focus on headphones if you want to notice significant improvements.
Sennheiser HD600 are definitely worth the money.
I have a pair of headphones that cost several thousand $. I can hear things I haven't heard before in songs that I've listened to since I was a teenager.
Is it worth the money? Honestly I'm not sure. I probably could've gotten there with an investment of $500-1000. But now I have a beautiful piece of hardware that might last a decade or two.
Is it worth the money? Honestly I'm not sure. I probably could've gotten there with an investment of $500-1000. But now I have a beautiful piece of hardware that might last a decade or two.
That's the quality of the reproduction though, not the stuff you put into it. Agreed, I have Shure semi-opens I use for production that you hear things in that you wouldn't hear in buds but that's still just via regular old 16bit/44Khz WAV.
Link to item?
The Stax electrostatic headphones ("earspeakers") have that effect whenever i put them on.
I think there are some diminishing returns and you need multiple components to line up. I have decent (€250 or so) headphones, the M3K and high quality MP3s and then I definitely hear a world of difference compared to e.g. stock iPhone buds on an old iPhone with 128k MP3s. But I doubt that I would notice a difference with still more expensive headphones, FLACs and a more expensive device.
On the setup I have 128k/transcoded MP3 also definitely has less interesting detail than higher quality files.
On the setup I have 128k/transcoded MP3 also definitely has less interesting detail than higher quality files.
> 128k MP3s
Twenty years ago, such files would have been barely listenable. Ten years ago, this would have been tolerable but obviously compromised. Today, with the best encoders, 128k MP3s are shockingly good. Certainly not perfect. But good.
MP3 encoding has come a long way.
Twenty years ago, such files would have been barely listenable. Ten years ago, this would have been tolerable but obviously compromised. Today, with the best encoders, 128k MP3s are shockingly good. Certainly not perfect. But good.
MP3 encoding has come a long way.
Interesting - I didn't realize this had improved so much. A large part of my library is definitely 10 or more years old so that might explain it.
A big difference is AAC. 256kbps AAC sounds pretty good.
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I was at a conference where someone was showing off the TIDAL studio master stuff. It definitely sounded different, I heard things in songs that I've listened to for years that I've not heard before.
I then realized that the headphones cost around $2000 (Audeze LCD-3) and a dac that I didn't recognize, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.
But there were too many variables to tell what made the difference. Was it the expensive headphones + dac? Was it the better quality audio? Was it the different mastering of the song that I know?
Either way, I still listen to my "shit" audio setup because it's good enough for me and what I'm used too.
I then realized that the headphones cost around $2000 (Audeze LCD-3) and a dac that I didn't recognize, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.
But there were too many variables to tell what made the difference. Was it the expensive headphones + dac? Was it the better quality audio? Was it the different mastering of the song that I know?
Either way, I still listen to my "shit" audio setup because it's good enough for me and what I'm used too.
I can tell you it probably was none of them.
I own Stax, electrostats that make Audeze look plebian, plugged into their fancy Stax amp (although not the fanciest), plugged into a Theta DAC that is basically a 44.1/48khz Schiit Yggy, and there isn't some amazing leap.
Also, fun fact, want a 90% Audeze LCD clone? Monoprice M1070 and M1570. I have the predecessor, the M1060, fucking amazing for a $300 can, but flawed enough that I recommend the newer models of it.
I own Stax, electrostats that make Audeze look plebian, plugged into their fancy Stax amp (although not the fanciest), plugged into a Theta DAC that is basically a 44.1/48khz Schiit Yggy, and there isn't some amazing leap.
Also, fun fact, want a 90% Audeze LCD clone? Monoprice M1070 and M1570. I have the predecessor, the M1060, fucking amazing for a $300 can, but flawed enough that I recommend the newer models of it.
> It definitely sounded different, I heard things in songs that I've listened to for years that I've not heard before.
That usually means one of two things—
1. the frequency response of this new system is different, changing the relative loudness of different instruments;
2. the context caused you to concentrate on the music differently and your experience of it was therefore different.
The critical thing nobody ever says is "I heard things I never heard before, then I went back to my regular system and I stopped hearing the new thing." That never[0] happens—because the thing you hadn't noticed was there all along.
[0] Edit: Okay yes, so not never. I was assuming that the regular system is a reasonably competent modern setup. The median intentional audio system, shall we say.
That usually means one of two things—
1. the frequency response of this new system is different, changing the relative loudness of different instruments;
2. the context caused you to concentrate on the music differently and your experience of it was therefore different.
The critical thing nobody ever says is "I heard things I never heard before, then I went back to my regular system and I stopped hearing the new thing." That never[0] happens—because the thing you hadn't noticed was there all along.
[0] Edit: Okay yes, so not never. I was assuming that the regular system is a reasonably competent modern setup. The median intentional audio system, shall we say.
> The critical thing nobody ever says is "I heard things I never heard before, then I went back to my regular system and I stopped hearing the new thing."
...well, I have, but only when I was a child, and my “regular system” was a thing my parents bought for probably less than $20.
...well, I have, but only when I was a child, and my “regular system” was a thing my parents bought for probably less than $20.
There is a vast well of diminishing audio in the Hi-Fi world.
I think for almost anyone who doesn't want to actively turn listening to music into a hobby, I think ~$100 each headphones and a DAC is the highest end anyone will ever notice.
I think for almost anyone who doesn't want to actively turn listening to music into a hobby, I think ~$100 each headphones and a DAC is the highest end anyone will ever notice.
I certainly am.
But I can also believe that it is at least somewhat different for audiophiles. I once took a beer judge certification course, and, by the end of it, I could easily distinguish flavor subtleties that were completely imperceptible to me at the start of the class. Not just in a "I think I can" way, but reliably in blind tests. And I've had a similar experience of imperceptible differences becoming easy to spot when learning to speak new languages. So it seems possible to me that simply being an audiophile makes it possible to care about subtleties that non-audiophiles can't even hear, because brains are magical like that.
But I can also believe that it is at least somewhat different for audiophiles. I once took a beer judge certification course, and, by the end of it, I could easily distinguish flavor subtleties that were completely imperceptible to me at the start of the class. Not just in a "I think I can" way, but reliably in blind tests. And I've had a similar experience of imperceptible differences becoming easy to spot when learning to speak new languages. So it seems possible to me that simply being an audiophile makes it possible to care about subtleties that non-audiophiles can't even hear, because brains are magical like that.
For me it took getting some good balanced armature IEMs and lying somewhere calm and quiet with a 24-slider EQ and listening repeatedly to familiar music with different EQ adjustments.
Play a song. Move one or two sliders. Play it again.
You pick up on a lot of subtleties you’d miss otherwise.
The crucial difference is that compared to our other senses, our ears are really, really, astonishingly shit. They can be highly precise in one context and ludicrously imprecise in another context. And they lie. They often tell us we're hearing what our eyes expect to hear.
OTOH, there aren't many other sensory systems that operate over 3 orders of magnitude in frequency and 6 o.o.m. in amplitude.
This is true. Our hearing is well tuned for utility in a pre-modern context. They just don't have anything remotely like the precision of our eyesight, which can judge things like the straightness of a line, or simultaneously compare the properties of distinct objects.
There was a famous (in the diy audio community at least) blind test where music was played in audiophile equipment with some premium audio cable that cost a lot, and then the same music was played with a bent coathanger used as a cable. The order was randomized, and the audiophiles couldn't tell the difference. There have been other blind tests with different equipment, like hi end amplifiers vs mid-level consumer grade equipment (like your average Sony) with same results. You can search audio forums for the details. From all that I've read over the years, and from my own experience of quite a few years listening to the best recorded classical music, pretty much every good consumer player, amplifier, dac today is good enough for every audiophile. Where you'll find the difference is in the speakers, and to a lesser extent, headphones.
TL;DR: If I had 5,000 dollars to spend on high end audio equipment for my living room, I'd spend 3,500-4,000 on the speakers. But I wouldn't, personally. I'd spend half of that and get 98% of the quality.
TL;DR: If I had 5,000 dollars to spend on high end audio equipment for my living room, I'd spend 3,500-4,000 on the speakers. But I wouldn't, personally. I'd spend half of that and get 98% of the quality.
I think there is varying degrees of craziness with audiophiles and then they all get lumped together making them look worse.
For example you have the Japanese audiophiles spending 100,000 on speakers but live in a 10x10 room, or install power lines as they say they can hear the difference.
Audio reaches diminishing returns pretty quickly, you aren't going to see massive audio gains by upping your budget from $2,000 to $20,000 but you will by going from $200 to $2,000. At a certain point you are paying for a sound curve that suits you over the end all be all music reproduction.
A lot of stuff is getting cheaper too with good class D amplifiers with very low distortion being available to DIY and custom builders for relatively cheap (as long as you aren't in the class D is garbage audiophile crowd, which I think is similar to the my $1,000 dollar wire is better than your $50 dollar wires).
For example you have the Japanese audiophiles spending 100,000 on speakers but live in a 10x10 room, or install power lines as they say they can hear the difference.
Audio reaches diminishing returns pretty quickly, you aren't going to see massive audio gains by upping your budget from $2,000 to $20,000 but you will by going from $200 to $2,000. At a certain point you are paying for a sound curve that suits you over the end all be all music reproduction.
A lot of stuff is getting cheaper too with good class D amplifiers with very low distortion being available to DIY and custom builders for relatively cheap (as long as you aren't in the class D is garbage audiophile crowd, which I think is similar to the my $1,000 dollar wire is better than your $50 dollar wires).
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What Hi-Fi audio equipment have you listened to
Philips SHP9500 headphones, TIN HiFi T2 Pro IEMs, AudioQuest DragonFly Black DAC.
Yep. My old man used to be a sound engineer for the bbc and he has a ridiculous hifi setup, and he’s convinced he can hear a difference between 24/192 vs a normal 320 mp3 but I sure can’t and the blind tests I’ve done on him does make me think he’s taking shit.
Xiph seems to agree: https://web.archive.org/web/20200124190800/https://people.xi...
Xiph seems to agree: https://web.archive.org/web/20200124190800/https://people.xi...
German c't magazine did a test in 2000. In the end most of the listeners (several audio professionals among them) liked the 256kbit MP3 as much as the original.
Here's an english copy of the test:
http://www.geocities.ws/altbinariessoundsmusicclassical/mp3t...
Here's an english copy of the test:
http://www.geocities.ws/altbinariessoundsmusicclassical/mp3t...
If anything higher sample rates causes more stress on the ear. Shannon-Nyquist theory is definitely a thing.
And more stress on the speaker/tweeter drivers.
Of course, when you look at these high resolution recordings, the amplitude of material above 20kHz is piddling. The amount of harmonics/overtones in acoustic instruments is minuscule in the first place.
Of course, when you look at these high resolution recordings, the amplitude of material above 20kHz is piddling. The amount of harmonics/overtones in acoustic instruments is minuscule in the first place.
You're confusing frequency and resolution. Just because a set of music fits in a certain frequency range doesn't mean that all representations of it are equal. For example, consider this in graphical form:
https://i.imgur.com/ZgU1bgI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RZpbyyI.jpg
Both have the same 24-bit color space. Both have the same blackest black and whitest white. Both have the same resolution. And yet one preserves more detail and information. This is the nature of lossy compression.
https://i.imgur.com/ZgU1bgI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RZpbyyI.jpg
Both have the same 24-bit color space. Both have the same blackest black and whitest white. Both have the same resolution. And yet one preserves more detail and information. This is the nature of lossy compression.
I am not confusing the two. In a band-limited signal, the Shannon-Nyquist theorem mathematically proves that the sampling rate is the frequency resolution. It also proves that when a signal is band limited, discrete time sampling can be a zero-loss transformation.
Your analogy misunderstands audio signals. The resolution components of bit depth and lossy compression are different axes and should not be conflated with or analogised to frequency resolution. They behave very differently.
Your analogy misunderstands audio signals. The resolution components of bit depth and lossy compression are different axes and should not be conflated with or analogised to frequency resolution. They behave very differently.
Good speakers or headphones make a genuine difference.
Amplifiers don't tend to matter much any more - cheap class B solid-state amps are all fine these days (heaphone amps are a lottery though).
Digital sources have largely sounded perfect for the past 20 years.
A properly set up pair of good speakers in a room big enough to let them do their thing can be an _astonishing_ thing to hear.
Amplifiers don't tend to matter much any more - cheap class B solid-state amps are all fine these days (heaphone amps are a lottery though).
Digital sources have largely sounded perfect for the past 20 years.
A properly set up pair of good speakers in a room big enough to let them do their thing can be an _astonishing_ thing to hear.
If your audio is of sufficient quality, it really does come down to the headphones and being sufficiently able to drive them.
I used to be a earphones or nought when I was a kid, then I started using some "expensive" Sony headphones, had those almost a decade now but have since started using a combination of IEMs, monitor speakers and a pair of planar magnetic headphones with big drivers.
Even though I'm decades older than when I started, and in theory my hearing is worse, I hear things in music I've listened to for all of this time that I didn't before.
I have a high res audio player, I buy high res music and all that, but the single biggest difference I'd say is having a good size driver, 40mm+ for headphones, the ability to drive them well (a cheapish but not too cheap amp) and some decent quality music, ideally MP3 320 or something or lossless.
As someone who doesn't make music or content I wouldn't recommend monitor speakers for general listening unless you're a true purist, they don't sound "fun", they're extremely directional and I can only describe them as "clinical".
The same can be said for many IEMs, but not always.
I used to be a earphones or nought when I was a kid, then I started using some "expensive" Sony headphones, had those almost a decade now but have since started using a combination of IEMs, monitor speakers and a pair of planar magnetic headphones with big drivers.
Even though I'm decades older than when I started, and in theory my hearing is worse, I hear things in music I've listened to for all of this time that I didn't before.
I have a high res audio player, I buy high res music and all that, but the single biggest difference I'd say is having a good size driver, 40mm+ for headphones, the ability to drive them well (a cheapish but not too cheap amp) and some decent quality music, ideally MP3 320 or something or lossless.
As someone who doesn't make music or content I wouldn't recommend monitor speakers for general listening unless you're a true purist, they don't sound "fun", they're extremely directional and I can only describe them as "clinical".
The same can be said for many IEMs, but not always.
I can recommend the FiiO M3K, especially loaded with https://www.rockbox.org/ . There is now a native Rockbox build (with some caveats), I use the older one from https://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,52952.0.html - works very nice.
The site lists the FiiO M3K port under unusable. Did you find it usable?
It appears there are 2 rockbox firmware versions for the M3K. The older one is binary-only from a .ru site and it uses the linux kernel from the stock firmware. The newer, bare-metal version is still in development. So there's something that works today and a better version in active development.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870940
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26870940
+1
I use the older one which uses the kernel from the stock firmware. To my understanding done by the guys who worked also on the original firmware. I have seen just a single issue, it's minor: fast forward/rewind does not work properly. It does forward/rewind, but slower than expected.
The new native port lists quite some downsides/TODO's, so I did not yet switch over.
I use the older one which uses the kernel from the stock firmware. To my understanding done by the guys who worked also on the original firmware. I have seen just a single issue, it's minor: fast forward/rewind does not work properly. It does forward/rewind, but slower than expected.
The new native port lists quite some downsides/TODO's, so I did not yet switch over.
Oh, ok, thanks!
Rockbox is the only reason I'd really want to get a new PMP. Still have my Sansa Fuze somewhere running Rockbox.
What's better with "Rockbox"?
As a shout out, I have a XDuoo X3 and it supports Rockbox!
https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/XDuooX3
The Xudoo X20 should support Rockbox as well:
https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/XDuooX3ii
I forgot how much I liked using Rockbox, and I am so happy I can use it again.
https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/XDuooX3
The Xudoo X20 should support Rockbox as well:
https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/XDuooX3ii
I forgot how much I liked using Rockbox, and I am so happy I can use it again.
My FiiO died about a year ago, i loved it. And the reason it died was getting completely underwater repeatly with an already slightly bent case. Before that it survived things you can't even imagine.
Every few months i look up new options, but none of them has actual buttons or are WAY to expensive (ok to pay up to $3-400)
I can't use a touch device on a bike. I want F* buttons.
Any suggestions?
Every few months i look up new options, but none of them has actual buttons or are WAY to expensive (ok to pay up to $3-400)
I can't use a touch device on a bike. I want F* buttons.
Any suggestions?
A few years back I listened to audiobooks/podcasts on my bike with a bluetooth earpiece in one ear only. I bought a bluetooth media button and that helped a lot, except there was something weird about the firmware where it would go to sleep sometimes and had to be woken.
The one I keep coming back to when I go looking for an mp3 player with buttons is the Sandisk Sansa clips, and maybe the few copycats of that style. It'll have a smaller battery just by nature of being physically smaller, but for when you're outside or not in a perfect listening environment I'm sure it's 99% as effective for the core task of playing audio. Most of the range supports Rockbox as well.
I'm a bit paranoid that WD (who now own Sandisk) will stop making them, leaving a gap in the market when stock empties out.
I'm a bit paranoid that WD (who now own Sandisk) will stop making them, leaving a gap in the market when stock empties out.
Maybe its time to give them a go. Do you know if those "Sports Plus" Clips are the "good ones" or does it not matter in terms of audio quality? Going to check the rockbox wiki for specific models i guess :)
From what I know the sport models have more limited processing capabilities to older models so its not feasible to port Rockbox to them. Think it has something to do with the drop in market size for mp3 players in general resulting in the quality of low cost parts declining.
What a shame. I'll check some classifieds then i guess. Thanks
I've been on a cowon J3, and their S9 (but its slider/switches wear out) before that. Both are discontinued. The SanDisk Clip series is alright as a spare device but they just don't have the battery capacity so I consider them high maintenance.
Recently I got a used single samsung galaxy bud, and have been using my phone. The touch controls on the earbud work through my fingered gloves. Wind noise is an issue though. I might try something like https://www.cat-ears.com to block the wind without making it hot.
Recently I got a used single samsung galaxy bud, and have been using my phone. The touch controls on the earbud work through my fingered gloves. Wind noise is an issue though. I might try something like https://www.cat-ears.com to block the wind without making it hot.
I would rather buy a Dragonfly DAC for my phone. I had a FiiO but the problem is that you have 2 devices to charge and copy music to. I am using a Dragonfly Black with my laptop and I am recommending it to everybody. It's around £100 and the difference in the audio quality is lightyears or even parsecs from any internal soundcard.
IIRC FiiO makes BTR3/5 Bluetooth DACs. You can use those to bluetoothize your high end headphones as well as a USB DAC.
I do the same with a Radstone EarStudio ES100: https://earstudio.store/products/es100
You can also use it on your desktop/laptop which may have outdated Bluetooth hardware as a transmitter to your modern Bluetooth headphones.
You can also use it on your desktop/laptop which may have outdated Bluetooth hardware as a transmitter to your modern Bluetooth headphones.
They also have a BTA30 which allows me to add bluetooth to my PC and listen via LDAC to my sony headphones
FIIO has some nice build products. I have got a FIIO BTR1K which works well as a bluetooth mic as well as making my IEMs wireless.
The measurement results for their products are not always that good. Check audiosciencereview.com . This might not matter that much because these days DACs are so accurate anyway that most of the differences are not audible anyway.
Just remember that depending in the bluetooth features the sender and receiver each support, you may end up with horribly compressed audio.
Apple devices will always use AAC codec if I remember which is is not only compressed, but will also try to compress with lower bitrates than say a regular mp3 cbr compression by judging which parts of the audio signal can be compressed more heavily according to what we should be able to hear. I think apple devices do not support lossless bluetooth.
Android devices were known in the past to use a bitrate that is dependant on the amount of processing power the encoder gets assigned from the system. This means that on some phones with power management that is not designed with encoding for bluetooth in mind you would end up with horribly low bitrates because the power management would take away processing resources from the encoder to save battery. This of course would not apply to lossless codecs, if the sender and receiver support them both and the software picks it up correctly.
Apple devices will always use AAC codec if I remember which is is not only compressed, but will also try to compress with lower bitrates than say a regular mp3 cbr compression by judging which parts of the audio signal can be compressed more heavily according to what we should be able to hear. I think apple devices do not support lossless bluetooth.
Android devices were known in the past to use a bitrate that is dependant on the amount of processing power the encoder gets assigned from the system. This means that on some phones with power management that is not designed with encoding for bluetooth in mind you would end up with horribly low bitrates because the power management would take away processing resources from the encoder to save battery. This of course would not apply to lossless codecs, if the sender and receiver support them both and the software picks it up correctly.
I’m not quite certain if I’m spreading incorrect information as it’s been a long time since I’ve looked at the subject. I thought for a given bitrate AAC produced measurably better results than MP3. I wonder does the iOS Bluetooth audio stack transcode existing AAC audio to a lower bitrate or does it pass it through?
You are right though, iOS devices don’t support anything other than AAC or SBC over Bluetooth. MacOS devices do seem to additionally support AptX, but none of the low latency or lossless variants.
It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that Apple planned to roll their own AAC lossless codec given the movement of Spotify to lossless streaming, leaving Apple with no high tier offering.
You are right though, iOS devices don’t support anything other than AAC or SBC over Bluetooth. MacOS devices do seem to additionally support AptX, but none of the low latency or lossless variants.
It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that Apple planned to roll their own AAC lossless codec given the movement of Spotify to lossless streaming, leaving Apple with no high tier offering.
[deleted]
Yes iOS devices use AAC but a better implementation so it's not that bad.
I can recommend the FiiOs. The built in mic is also good quality. I have used both the FiiO BTR1K and the Dragonfly Red as a DAC and the Dragonfly does some sort of dynamic range compression (introduced in a later firmware) that I don't like.
This wired-only M3K could be good for environments which don't allow wireless devices. Hopefully the claimed 25hr battery life will enable a week of intermittent use.
I'm always wary of claims like this as there's so much snake oil targeted at audiophiles that I can never tell if the product offers a genuine improvement or if it's an expensive placebo. Would you be able to tell the difference between this and e.g. an iPhone DAC in a blind test?
I second this. Personally I can't tell a Dragonfly from a Fulla 2 from a Fiio E10K from anything else. Well, my Fulla 2 is louder in its left channel and crackles when I change the volume. But no discernible difference in 'quality'.
I don't know how good the iphone DAC is compared to the dragonfly, but I could easily tell the difference between my macbook dac and an external $100 DAC.
I believe you are sincere. But I think that if you were able to run a sufficiently rigorous blind test (note: precise level matching is critical) you'd surprise yourself.
I have a FiiO X3 and its the only way I can properly hear music nowadays. I'm a freelancer musician from time to time I have to spend proper time with high quality audio files as folks who transcribe music sometimes eat notes for pleasure or mistake.
Also, thanks to a friend who was into whatcd, my entire entire CD collection was ripped in a great way. I moved abroad a few years ago and I'm thankful that I could donate the less rare ones to the local library and avoid shipping a bunch of boxes to my new place.
I still purchase the majority of albums I want from bandcamp and HDtracks and having a dedicated device that can take a profissional headphone is great for my study.
Also, thanks to a friend who was into whatcd, my entire entire CD collection was ripped in a great way. I moved abroad a few years ago and I'm thankful that I could donate the less rare ones to the local library and avoid shipping a bunch of boxes to my new place.
I still purchase the majority of albums I want from bandcamp and HDtracks and having a dedicated device that can take a profissional headphone is great for my study.
I have an X3 and I find it unusable. No way to queue up a track to play next. No way to even find a track unless you already know the artist or album. Navigation way too slow, it can take 12 seconds between a button press and reaction from the device. This M3K gets good reviews but I am reluctant to buy another FiiO. Agreed the audio quality is excellent.
Surprising people are still building dedicated players without real track control buttons. Capacitive buttons are hard to operate from a pocket. This feels like an updated clone of Cowon's iAudio 9.
The FiiO M3 Pro (successor model) can also be used as a USB Headphone preamp, thinking about getting one myself. Does anybody know if it is possible to adjust left/right balance via the software (when using as music player or DAC)? My right ear is slightly impaired and would need higher volume on the right - or at least enable stereo-to-mono downmix. Genuinely interested if this device would support this.
You can on the btr3 k through the fiio app so my guess would be yes.
Thanks, that really helps a lot. I tried googling of course, but since there are special "balanced amps" (nothing to do with L/R balance) this became almost impossible.
FiiO appears to make a slightly newer model, the FiiO M3 Pro[0], which has USB-C charging instead of legacy micro-USB. That would be a selling point for me, but it looks like the trade-off is worse battery life due to the full touchscreen. Also, I'm guessing part of the attraction to M3K is work-in-progress Rockbox support.[1]
Love the build-quality, though. I've always regretted giving away my Sansa Fuze when I got my first smartphone, and at least microUSB is a standard instead of relying on Sansa's proprietary cables.
[0]https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-M3-Pro-Resolution-Touchscreen/dp...
[1] https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FiioM3K
Love the build-quality, though. I've always regretted giving away my Sansa Fuze when I got my first smartphone, and at least microUSB is a standard instead of relying on Sansa's proprietary cables.
[0]https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-M3-Pro-Resolution-Touchscreen/dp...
[1] https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FiioM3K
FiiO make great-sounding products, but rather than carry a standalone music player, one might consider the FiiO BTR3 Bluetooth amp that lets you listen to music off your phone at high quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if the two FiiO devices shared the same DAC.
Wouldn't the low bluetooth bitrate eliminate most of the advantage?
The FiiO BTR3 advertises itself (a logo on the back of the device) as supporting hi-res Bluetooth audio, so one simply needs a phone that supports the same.
But even hi res Bluetooth audio is quite terrible compared to what the DAC is capable of.
Yes, they both use the same AK4376A chip.
Yes indeed, they make great sounding products for the price. I have bought and recommended some of their DACs.
SMSL is another company like that, I highly recommend their class-D amplifiers - especially the ones based on ST[microelectronics] chips. The SA-50 (ST) sounds better than the SA-60 (TI) - I have both.
SMSL is another company like that, I highly recommend their class-D amplifiers - especially the ones based on ST[microelectronics] chips. The SA-50 (ST) sounds better than the SA-60 (TI) - I have both.
I think this would end up sitting the draw next to my camera. For me phones are "good enough" for music given I'm mostly listening on the go so there are many more factors that influence the sound.
The best audio player is the one you have in your hand right now. (to butcher the quote) And that for me, just like my camera, is the phone that is always there.
Having said that Music, like coffee, or keyboards is a very personal thing that people connect with and so I can see the appeal of the focused device. It's similar to the e-book reader I suppose where there are not the distractions of a full connected phone. Just you and the music.
The best audio player is the one you have in your hand right now. (to butcher the quote) And that for me, just like my camera, is the phone that is always there.
Having said that Music, like coffee, or keyboards is a very personal thing that people connect with and so I can see the appeal of the focused device. It's similar to the e-book reader I suppose where there are not the distractions of a full connected phone. Just you and the music.
It's definitely a matter of taste. I have used a few of their amps, and for me personally, it makes a world of difference in the audio quality worth the effort. Several types of headphones simply can't be driven by most phones directly.
I've even gone as far as using my phone's OTG USB feature to hook up my amp as a DAC, which is admittedly awkward in my pocket. But to your point, I would miss my convenient streaming options.
A good compromise are amps that use a high quality bluetooth connections, like EarStudio.
I've even gone as far as using my phone's OTG USB feature to hook up my amp as a DAC, which is admittedly awkward in my pocket. But to your point, I would miss my convenient streaming options.
A good compromise are amps that use a high quality bluetooth connections, like EarStudio.
I've been using 1st generation Fiio X5 since its release in 2014 up to this day. It has been everything I wished from a portable audio player: great sound quality, easily drivees even high impedance headphones with plenty of volume headroom, could be used as an external AMP, good battery life, extremely solid build, physical buttons, no OS and apps, no connectivity, no touchscreen.
It's been easy enough to replace the battery when it stopped holding charge. I'm dreading the day the player dies on me, as all its replacements seem to be moving against the design decisions that made this device so great for me.
It's been easy enough to replace the battery when it stopped holding charge. I'm dreading the day the player dies on me, as all its replacements seem to be moving against the design decisions that made this device so great for me.
Were I in the market for a dedicated music player, a front-mounted play button I can feel through the fabric of my jeans and push without putting my hands in my pockets would be a requirement.
I would rather use a lossless player on my iphone with a super small dac/headphone amp that I can plug into the lightning port.
Depending on the headphone the biggest problem is the amp not the DAC. E.g. something like a hifiman Sundara or a Sennheiser HD 600 Series requires a bit more power then a cell phone typically requires. Looking at the specs for the M3k it looks to me that it is not really suitable for these kind of headphones. I like using slightly bigger mobile amps with the Sundara. Used to have a Topping NX4, which worked well, but died after 6 months, now switched to an ifi hip-dac.
M3 Pro, the successor to M3K, has 3X power but no Rockbox support: https://fiio.com/m3_pro
obviously a "hifi" dac/amp combo should deliver enough power at 300 ohms. I would suggest buying one that delivers enough power. or are you concerned with battery usage?
just a sidenote: the sundara you mention have 37 ohm which is pretty standard and they should be easy to drive.
just a sidenote: the sundara you mention have 37 ohm which is pretty standard and they should be easy to drive.
LG has made phones with really good DAC, get them while you can.
Recently announced Xperia 1 III also advertises great DAC.
Except the fact that you need an additional device anyway, FiiO has an amazing battery life and you don't have to drain your phone, plus you can put SD cards up to whatever is available today. Which is necessary for big lossless collections.
The Walkman ZX300 (appearance of which the M3K copies pretty well :) is by far my favorite player.
Although in a perfect world I'd just have an iPod with a headphone amp as good as the current Walkmans/Fiios.
That said, why is an audio player review from 2018 on the front page? o_O
Although in a perfect world I'd just have an iPod with a headphone amp as good as the current Walkmans/Fiios.
That said, why is an audio player review from 2018 on the front page? o_O
Wow, the ZX300 has a $700 list price.
> why is an audio player review from 2018 on the front page
It's the newest audio player with support for Rockbox firmware and FLAC. Pointers to better alternatives with Rockbox support would be appreciated.
> why is an audio player review from 2018 on the front page
It's the newest audio player with support for Rockbox firmware and FLAC. Pointers to better alternatives with Rockbox support would be appreciated.
It’s been out a while, You can get them used below 300.
Unfortunately I don’t think Sony sell the ZX300 series anymore.
They sell the ZX500 series currently, it runs android, is missing USB DAC functionality and has regional volume restrictions which completely gut the potency of the amplifier, and for which there is no known workaround currently as root has not yet been publicly obtained.
They sell the ZX500 series currently, it runs android, is missing USB DAC functionality and has regional volume restrictions which completely gut the potency of the amplifier, and for which there is no known workaround currently as root has not yet been publicly obtained.
I bought and sold a zx500. It basically got rid of everything good about the 300 except for the form factor.
I bought a zx500 because I wanted access to my streaming services, on top of my usual Flac library, because I cannot trust myself not to fiddle around in a web browser on any other machine haha.
The only thing I’m not happy with is the volume limit (I have an EU machine). It doesn’t leave me any headroom on insensitive planar magnetic headphones like Fostex T50’s and Dan Clark Aeon’s. Worse than that, they limit the 4.4mm output to the same power output as the 3.5mm and have removed high/low gain completely in software in these systems
The only thing I’m not happy with is the volume limit (I have an EU machine). It doesn’t leave me any headroom on insensitive planar magnetic headphones like Fostex T50’s and Dan Clark Aeon’s. Worse than that, they limit the 4.4mm output to the same power output as the 3.5mm and have removed high/low gain completely in software in these systems
I would love a media player that supports rockbox and could also take a 1-2tb ssd. i tried with an ipod classic with 4 256gb sd cards but it seemed to corrupt music files sometimes which was a shame
You might want a newer model flash board, I think they're pretty reliable these days
I want (which does exist) A classic, with a 2T drive, with a supersized battery (10x the original) and bluetooth. I'll probably have to wait another decade till my current one finally kicks the bucket though!
I want (which does exist) A classic, with a 2T drive, with a supersized battery (10x the original) and bluetooth. I'll probably have to wait another decade till my current one finally kicks the bucket though!
I only got the iflash recently, but i think ill try setting it up again and format each sd first.
rockbox was a delightful experience, such a cool project.
rockbox was a delightful experience, such a cool project.
Can it adjust speed without altering pitch the way VLC and YouTube do?
Is it hackable/programmable? I need a short nice bell every n seconds.
If it can do both I'm buying...
Is it hackable/programmable? I need a short nice bell every n seconds.
If it can do both I'm buying...
Anyone here with practical experiences compared to the slightly more expensive M3 Pro? (except it's not supported by Rockbox)
Hardware is nice but FiiO is really bad at software and drivers and support. You can get a good look at that in their forums.
The thing to remember about hi-fi is that more is often less. Theres a clear formula of cost time X, so every feature not only costs more money, but also likely degrades the sound quality. (Yes, it does, even software uses CPU that introduces noise)
A Hi-fi DAP (Digital Audio Player) should do one thing, and one thing well: play music to the best of it's ability. Admittedly, most of this is wasted because headphones are usually the weakest link. The general philosophy in audio is this: Music is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. That chain looks something like this: artist plays music, the music enters the venue it's being played in, then the combination of playing and the room are picked up by a microphone. The signal is amplified in the microphone, and sent to be recorded on a medium like digital or tape. Then the signal is replayed through a mixing board and the mixing engineer makes changes. The music is then put on a final medium, let's say digital for this day and age.
Ok, now there is a bit perfect recording. You just play it, right? Wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_samp...
"establishes a sufficient condition for a sample rate that permits a discrete sequence of samples to capture all the information from a continuous-time signal of finite bandwidth."
All the information is ENCODED, but DECODING is another story. I won't get into that here. Haters will say the ear can't hear anyway. Purists will say every deviation from "perfect" stacks, and the end result may be very audible.
So, the signal is converted to a waveform which then needs to be outputted as a series of electrical pulses resembling a staircase. Not all electronics are designed to do this well. More computation power can extract a more close representation of the "all the information" part of the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem. It's not just determining the steps to output, but outputting that electrical signal perfectly. Many things can interfere with this small electrical signal. Wifi in a DAP? Yep. Gonna interfere, turn it off when listening. Electrical noise from other internal components leaking back into the power supply and tainting the signal? You betcha. Every piece of hardware in a DAP is less than perfect and degrades the music. The screen, the processor, the ram, the wifi, etc.
After the signal is generated, it is now "Analog". Converting bits to an analogue signal is not an easy thing. After that the analog signal needs to be amplified in a linear way to no piece of the musical experience is exaggerated or lower key. Then there is the limitations of headphones.
DAPs are amazing technologies that act as stepping stones to the Hi-Fi world by disabusing people of the notion that bitperfect is good enough. It's not, music is only as good as the weakest link.
Fiio is the introduction, an entry level drug to the world of hi-fi.
Be careful. Hearing is believing
A Hi-fi DAP (Digital Audio Player) should do one thing, and one thing well: play music to the best of it's ability. Admittedly, most of this is wasted because headphones are usually the weakest link. The general philosophy in audio is this: Music is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. That chain looks something like this: artist plays music, the music enters the venue it's being played in, then the combination of playing and the room are picked up by a microphone. The signal is amplified in the microphone, and sent to be recorded on a medium like digital or tape. Then the signal is replayed through a mixing board and the mixing engineer makes changes. The music is then put on a final medium, let's say digital for this day and age.
Ok, now there is a bit perfect recording. You just play it, right? Wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_samp...
"establishes a sufficient condition for a sample rate that permits a discrete sequence of samples to capture all the information from a continuous-time signal of finite bandwidth."
All the information is ENCODED, but DECODING is another story. I won't get into that here. Haters will say the ear can't hear anyway. Purists will say every deviation from "perfect" stacks, and the end result may be very audible.
So, the signal is converted to a waveform which then needs to be outputted as a series of electrical pulses resembling a staircase. Not all electronics are designed to do this well. More computation power can extract a more close representation of the "all the information" part of the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem. It's not just determining the steps to output, but outputting that electrical signal perfectly. Many things can interfere with this small electrical signal. Wifi in a DAP? Yep. Gonna interfere, turn it off when listening. Electrical noise from other internal components leaking back into the power supply and tainting the signal? You betcha. Every piece of hardware in a DAP is less than perfect and degrades the music. The screen, the processor, the ram, the wifi, etc.
After the signal is generated, it is now "Analog". Converting bits to an analogue signal is not an easy thing. After that the analog signal needs to be amplified in a linear way to no piece of the musical experience is exaggerated or lower key. Then there is the limitations of headphones.
DAPs are amazing technologies that act as stepping stones to the Hi-Fi world by disabusing people of the notion that bitperfect is good enough. It's not, music is only as good as the weakest link.
Fiio is the introduction, an entry level drug to the world of hi-fi.
Be careful. Hearing is believing
It's 2021, I refuse to buy anything with microusb at this point. It's my hard line in the sand and I know it may seem kind of ridiculous but I'm choosing to vote with my wallet. The only thing left is my iPhone and that I wireless charge and only plug into a dock in my car. I know this device is older but it's still a problem for me.
I recently got a baby monitor - there's plenty of IoT enabled wifi ones which use your phone as the display, but the one I chose was simple and standalone. It just works. No software, no app, no security implications. I can give it to someone else and it'll work for them too.
I wonder what other areas of our life we should be unbundling again into appliances?