Italian ‘king of absentees’ allegedly skipped work for 15 years(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Italian ‘king of absentees’ allegedly skipped work for 15 years
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/21/italian-king-of-absentees-allegedly-skipped-work-for-15-years
136 comments
It's time for the "Ron Brown* Vacation" story from dotcom boom 1.0.
I was a tech project lead at a semi-famous internet portal startup, so worked across departments picking up staff for my projects. The DB guy assigned was Ron Brown. Went to onboard him and he wasn't at his desk. I ask the guy next to him. "Oh, he's on vacation this week."
I came by the next week. No Ron Brown. Where is he? I got a very specific story in response: "He was in a fire, he had his feet burned." Terrible! So I got someone else assigned as DB guy.
Never saw Ron Brown again. About six months later, I was down by his desk. Asked whatever happened to him. "Oh, last week we discovered he just stopped showing up to work, so we just fired him yesterday!"
This was in a company of <200 people, and certainly there were less than 10 DB experts, all onsite. So I'm sure these days it's totally possible.
*Name changed to protect guilty.
I was a tech project lead at a semi-famous internet portal startup, so worked across departments picking up staff for my projects. The DB guy assigned was Ron Brown. Went to onboard him and he wasn't at his desk. I ask the guy next to him. "Oh, he's on vacation this week."
I came by the next week. No Ron Brown. Where is he? I got a very specific story in response: "He was in a fire, he had his feet burned." Terrible! So I got someone else assigned as DB guy.
Never saw Ron Brown again. About six months later, I was down by his desk. Asked whatever happened to him. "Oh, last week we discovered he just stopped showing up to work, so we just fired him yesterday!"
This was in a company of <200 people, and certainly there were less than 10 DB experts, all onsite. So I'm sure these days it's totally possible.
*Name changed to protect guilty.
At my last job there were stories of an employee who worked for both that company and a tech company across the street: just using “meetings” and other excuses to split his time and collect two salaries. The story goes that he was only discovered because the HR people at the companies would occasionally go out to lunch together and, one day, his name came up.
Related: The Forgotten Employee (2002)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17332440
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17332440
[deleted]
At my last job my boss, who is a notorious micro manager, hired a guy against strong ojections from my side. The guy was only one week for every two months onsite which nobody told me. After some while my boss asked me how it's going with him. This was the first time someone indicated to me that he already started working for us.
I thought first it was kind of funny, but this guy turned out to be a complete disaster. E.g. when I asked him about his progress he was talking about abstract concepts while trying to evade my question. Multiple times I tried to make him commit his code to our repository so I could at least provide feedback about his work, but his answer was every time that the code isn't in a shareable state. At some point I agreed with my boss that my patience is ending, and one of my direct reports was tasked by my boss to supervise his work.
Six months later, about one week before the deadline, a demo was scheduled and every action or click in the software resulted in errors. Since the result was planned to be presented in a broader context in the following week I promised to invest the weekend and fix the code. After looking into it for about 2h to determine where to start, I decided to completely rewrite the whole thing from scratch which I did in 12h. Only thing I reused were the webservice definitions since those were already communicated to others and their clients were waiting for our application.
In the end my boss was angry at me that I saved our face, because he was kind of forced to fire the guys ass. My boss even accused me to have done this deliberately because he hired him against my objections.
I thought first it was kind of funny, but this guy turned out to be a complete disaster. E.g. when I asked him about his progress he was talking about abstract concepts while trying to evade my question. Multiple times I tried to make him commit his code to our repository so I could at least provide feedback about his work, but his answer was every time that the code isn't in a shareable state. At some point I agreed with my boss that my patience is ending, and one of my direct reports was tasked by my boss to supervise his work.
Six months later, about one week before the deadline, a demo was scheduled and every action or click in the software resulted in errors. Since the result was planned to be presented in a broader context in the following week I promised to invest the weekend and fix the code. After looking into it for about 2h to determine where to start, I decided to completely rewrite the whole thing from scratch which I did in 12h. Only thing I reused were the webservice definitions since those were already communicated to others and their clients were waiting for our application.
In the end my boss was angry at me that I saved our face, because he was kind of forced to fire the guys ass. My boss even accused me to have done this deliberately because he hired him against my objections.
I hope "my last job" means you no longer work there. Sounds like a really bad boss.
I quit after a team meeting where my boss completely undermined my competence. I wanted one dev to consider something which would made his work massively reusable for us, but my boss had other ideas and justified his decision by saying "it's his money and not mine".
I had three months notice period where I handed over all my stuff. Initially we agreed that I will work until my last day and get remaining vacation days paid out. But after about 4 weeks I received a letter from HR asking me to use up my remaining vacation days which meant that I had to clear mybdesk within a couple of days.
What makes the whole thing worse is that during my vacation I was legally not allowed to start another job, and one month after my last official workday the global pandemic started.
I had three months notice period where I handed over all my stuff. Initially we agreed that I will work until my last day and get remaining vacation days paid out. But after about 4 weeks I received a letter from HR asking me to use up my remaining vacation days which meant that I had to clear mybdesk within a couple of days.
What makes the whole thing worse is that during my vacation I was legally not allowed to start another job, and one month after my last official workday the global pandemic started.
ouch what a situation. I just wanted to let you know that there are good jobs out there with reasonable bosses and friendly teams. Not perfect but good enough that working in those places is not soul crushing on a daily basis (just sometimes haha).
I hope you find something nice soon. Don't be afraid of trying. I know it takes effort and is draining to get a new job but it's worth it.
I hope you find something nice soon. Don't be afraid of trying. I know it takes effort and is draining to get a new job but it's worth it.
I left my last job after being paid doing nothing for more than 6 months.
The management was terrible in so many ways, it would be too long to explain here.
At first it was nice to spend my days on private stuff (I was "working" remotely because Covid), but after a while I was bored and it was hard to continue this way.
I highly suspect that a large amount of the employees were in the same situation, starting with my direct manager.
The management was terrible in so many ways, it would be too long to explain here.
At first it was nice to spend my days on private stuff (I was "working" remotely because Covid), but after a while I was bored and it was hard to continue this way.
I highly suspect that a large amount of the employees were in the same situation, starting with my direct manager.
It is probably no coincidence that this happened in an Italian region where organized criminality was born (Calabria, the other ones are Sicilia and Campania.). This phenomenon happens there because organized criminality put their hands on government contracts and bribes the government inspectors.
In this way organized criminality deals two important damages: it steals government money and it dramatically decreases life quality of the people living in those regions. For example, people from Calabria use to move to other regions when they need health treatments.
Disclosure: I'm Italian.
In this way organized criminality deals two important damages: it steals government money and it dramatically decreases life quality of the people living in those regions. For example, people from Calabria use to move to other regions when they need health treatments.
Disclosure: I'm Italian.
I saw the same thing when working at the docks in Melbourne (forklift driver for 6 months). The check-in had a few cards for people who I had never met, but we're on my schedule (less than 50-100 onsite per day and I was involved in warehouse organisation which required me to pass out location sheets to other drivers).
Eventually I got to speaking with the site manager and I mentioned in passing the cards. He clammed up immediately and I shrugged it off.
A few months later after I left, the manager and I were having a beer and grouching about that site and he told me that those cards were for the local .. well mafia for lack of a better word. They were clocked in by a senior member every day, and clocked out at the end, the pay cheques were sent off and as a result we never had any break ins.
Crazy.
It opened my eyes up a lot and over the years since then I have seen similar things in a few other industries, eg in Japan and hospitality we had a very friendly grandpa style gentleman visit the restaurant once a month, hand over a receipt to the manager and she paid him some cash. Turns out he was Yakuza and that was our payment for the month
Eventually I got to speaking with the site manager and I mentioned in passing the cards. He clammed up immediately and I shrugged it off.
A few months later after I left, the manager and I were having a beer and grouching about that site and he told me that those cards were for the local .. well mafia for lack of a better word. They were clocked in by a senior member every day, and clocked out at the end, the pay cheques were sent off and as a result we never had any break ins.
Crazy.
It opened my eyes up a lot and over the years since then I have seen similar things in a few other industries, eg in Japan and hospitality we had a very friendly grandpa style gentleman visit the restaurant once a month, hand over a receipt to the manager and she paid him some cash. Turns out he was Yakuza and that was our payment for the month
That sounds the same setup as Nice Guy Eddie has in Reservoir Dogs. Probably you don't want to meet the people who had those cards as they might have a penchant for chopping people's ears off and setting them on fire.
Fascinating. I didn't realize the Mafia was still around until reading your comment.
After rabbitholing for a bit I realize now that they are still very much around.
They remind me of the Mexican Cartels a little bit.
After rabbitholing for a bit I realize now that they are still very much around.
They remind me of the Mexican Cartels a little bit.
Please also remember that the mafia is just one of the big organized crimes in Italy.
We have whole criminal families and such, "cosa nostra", "'ndrangeta" and many more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Italy
Unfortunately they are all very much still alive, and I am pretty sure a lot of those are older than Italy
We have whole criminal families and such, "cosa nostra", "'ndrangeta" and many more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Italy
Unfortunately they are all very much still alive, and I am pretty sure a lot of those are older than Italy
Wow! It's so involved and deep!
Feels like I'm reading a technical manual on organized crime.
Any idea why Italy is so susceptible to this compared to the rest of Europe? Or is the Italian version just glamourized by the media more?
Mexican cartels kind of make sense being the gate way for drugs from South America to the U.S.
Does Italy serve a similar function for Europe maybe?
Feels like I'm reading a technical manual on organized crime.
Any idea why Italy is so susceptible to this compared to the rest of Europe? Or is the Italian version just glamourized by the media more?
Mexican cartels kind of make sense being the gate way for drugs from South America to the U.S.
Does Italy serve a similar function for Europe maybe?
(not parent but also Italian)
First of all, Italy is a profoundly divided country geographically, to the point where the North and the South are almost operating as if they were different countries. Specifically, there are regions with unemployment numbers that are almost unbelivable for a first-world country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/778264/unemployment-rate.... The "Southern Question" ("questione meridionale") is a recurrent theme in the political discourse and has been so literally since Italy has been a country.
The lack of economic development in the South is also compounded by a very ineffective national welfare system, and, more generally, by an incredibly inefficient but very large public sector.
This is a hotbed for organized criminal associations, who are always ready to prey on corrupt local officials and widespread discontent.
Also bear in mind that the average Italian company is much smaller than the average American (or even German or French) company, which (aside from being in and of itself an economic problem) makes criminal schemes easier to set in motion, either directly or through corrupt politicians.
Another major issue is that criminal organizations have deep ties with the political power itself, to the point where such ties are referred to as "a pact": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-Mafia_Pact
As for the media issue, it's probably true that we know more about the Italian mafia due to its ties with American criminal organizations, but I don't feel one could say it's just media coverage, it's a massive problem, at least when compared with other European countries.
First of all, Italy is a profoundly divided country geographically, to the point where the North and the South are almost operating as if they were different countries. Specifically, there are regions with unemployment numbers that are almost unbelivable for a first-world country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/778264/unemployment-rate.... The "Southern Question" ("questione meridionale") is a recurrent theme in the political discourse and has been so literally since Italy has been a country.
The lack of economic development in the South is also compounded by a very ineffective national welfare system, and, more generally, by an incredibly inefficient but very large public sector.
This is a hotbed for organized criminal associations, who are always ready to prey on corrupt local officials and widespread discontent.
Also bear in mind that the average Italian company is much smaller than the average American (or even German or French) company, which (aside from being in and of itself an economic problem) makes criminal schemes easier to set in motion, either directly or through corrupt politicians.
Another major issue is that criminal organizations have deep ties with the political power itself, to the point where such ties are referred to as "a pact": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-Mafia_Pact
As for the media issue, it's probably true that we know more about the Italian mafia due to its ties with American criminal organizations, but I don't feel one could say it's just media coverage, it's a massive problem, at least when compared with other European countries.
Sorry it's come to my attention that I can come across sarcastic and snarky without meaning too. Just for clarity I was genuine in my previous comment. :)
Why no radical approach has been taken to fix it?
It is not so easy, even to explain. Many books have been written about organized criminality in Italy and many have to be written yet. Consider that Cosa Nostra (the Sicilian Mafia) at the beginning of '90 had so much power that managed to start a negotiation with high functionaries of the Italian government about which laws could pass and which not (la "Trattativa Stato-Mafia", the "State-Mafia Pact"). In those regions, Italian government and organized criminality have been the same thing for a lot of time. Would you fight yourself?
Also, let me add that a radical approach had been taken by two judges, Falcone and Borsellino. They almost destroyed Cosa Nostra, at the cost of their own lives. They have been both murdered by Cosa Nostra, along with their security, in the 1992. For the curious, this is the wiki page of the State-Mafia Pact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-Mafia_Pact
Also, let me add that a radical approach had been taken by two judges, Falcone and Borsellino. They almost destroyed Cosa Nostra, at the cost of their own lives. They have been both murdered by Cosa Nostra, along with their security, in the 1992. For the curious, this is the wiki page of the State-Mafia Pact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-Mafia_Pact
Why is it called Mafia if it functions similar to the state? What would happen if Sicily was given independence?
Well, for example it can be countered by offering all young men from these regions jobs outside. For example, in the military, creating a large mobile military force recruited from these regions for operations in say, Afghanistan, offering them good pay and discouraging them from returning - and encouraging people from other regions or countries moving in their place (for example by lowering barrier of entry for immigrants as long as they are going there, or increasing otherwise) - until "locals" become a minority and their social connection networks disrupts or become irrelevant.
This mafia thing is definitely cultural - "it is the way things are done there" - so it can be fixed by replacing/diluting people.
This mafia thing is definitely cultural - "it is the way things are done there" - so it can be fixed by replacing/diluting people.
To be fair, you're not the first to suggest methods like that. Soviet population transfer comes to mind. Not that I condone such measures. I find them quite revolting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Sov...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Sov...
Yup, this has happened over and over again throughout history. More recently with Stalin, with Han Chinese, in the Balkans, etc.
But also in Medieval times and many centuries before. E.g when Sweden gained control over Scania (Southern tip of today's Sweden) from Denmark in the 17th century they relocated a lot of native Swedes into that area to pacify the population. (I may need to reference this, I am only remembering school history classes...)
All to establish control, though we see it sometimes does quite the opposite. Though I would also think some of it is natural migration. So not always forced, but probably "encouraged".
Though always more when borders have changed. Not to combat an internal "culture"/crime problem.
But also in Medieval times and many centuries before. E.g when Sweden gained control over Scania (Southern tip of today's Sweden) from Denmark in the 17th century they relocated a lot of native Swedes into that area to pacify the population. (I may need to reference this, I am only remembering school history classes...)
All to establish control, though we see it sometimes does quite the opposite. Though I would also think some of it is natural migration. So not always forced, but probably "encouraged".
Though always more when borders have changed. Not to combat an internal "culture"/crime problem.
>Well, for example it can be countered by offering all young men from these regions jobs outside. For example, in the military, creating a large mobile military force recruited from these regions for operations in say, Afghanistan, offering them good pay and discouraging them from returning - and encouraging people from other regions or countries moving in their place
So, striping the place from its inhabitans, sending them to imperialist wars to be killed and kill, and bringing people from other countries to take their place?
Keeping the mafia sounds better than this scheme. Why not buldoze their houses and kill every first born while at it?
>This mafia thing is definitely cultural - "it is the way things are done there" - so it can be fixed by replacing/diluting people.
Yeah, like any cultural problem can be fixed by nuking a region.
So, striping the place from its inhabitans, sending them to imperialist wars to be killed and kill, and bringing people from other countries to take their place?
Keeping the mafia sounds better than this scheme. Why not buldoze their houses and kill every first born while at it?
>This mafia thing is definitely cultural - "it is the way things are done there" - so it can be fixed by replacing/diluting people.
Yeah, like any cultural problem can be fixed by nuking a region.
>So, striping the place from its inhabitans, sending them to imperialist wars to be killed and kill, and bringing people from other countries to take their place?
Not to mention that training people as soldiers to keep them out of organized crime sounds like a method primed to backfire when they leave the service and filter back to their homes and old ways of life, now complete with military training?
Not to mention that training people as soldiers to keep them out of organized crime sounds like a method primed to backfire when they leave the service and filter back to their homes and old ways of life, now complete with military training?
What else do you suggest? Analysis of cell phone movements + drones has been tried in other environments and success record is mixed. It does scare people but hardly fixes things.
A lot of studies show that people very rarely change their beliefs - like very few people even in the U.S. changed from Republican to Democratic or back - states changed their colours mostly due to demographic changes - red and blue population had different age breakdown, birth and death rates, and different migration/naturalisation patterns which mostly determine changes in voting outcomes. This is even more true in case of such much much deeper rooted thing like this one. It's obvious: you have a cultural problem, and you can't change people (well you can, but it's called brainwashing and is illegal everywhere but maybe North Korea), so have to replace people.
Mafia isn't about people being literally forced to do something with the fear or death - such an approach totally doesn't scale, even Sicily is not a Nazi death camp. It's about deeply rooted tradition to say, "respect your village elders" and "don't put your family to shame by exposing issues". And people don't even realise they have those beliefs, everyone taken separately just acts "normally", letting the whole society be exploited. Just reducing proportion of people having these beliefs in the first place - to some percentage giving "herd immunity" from them because these informal links need to be able to sufficiently propagate - solve the problem.
Mafia isn't about people being literally forced to do something with the fear or death - such an approach totally doesn't scale, even Sicily is not a Nazi death camp. It's about deeply rooted tradition to say, "respect your village elders" and "don't put your family to shame by exposing issues". And people don't even realise they have those beliefs, everyone taken separately just acts "normally", letting the whole society be exploited. Just reducing proportion of people having these beliefs in the first place - to some percentage giving "herd immunity" from them because these informal links need to be able to sufficiently propagate - solve the problem.
> It's obvious: you have a cultural problem, and you can't change people... so have to replace people.
This makes no sense at all. The government exists to serve those people who are getting replaced, so if you fix their problems by replacing them then nothing has actually been solved. You’re putting the importance of the government and the region over the people which is backwards.
This makes no sense at all. The government exists to serve those people who are getting replaced, so if you fix their problems by replacing them then nothing has actually been solved. You’re putting the importance of the government and the region over the people which is backwards.
>It's obvious: you have a cultural problem, and you can't change people (well you can, but it's called brainwashing and is illegal everywhere but maybe North Korea), so have to replace people.
That is social engineering (not the security term, the historical), and is associated with the worst totalitarianism (closely related to genocide and ethnocide). At the very least it's Machiavellian. And it's even more illegal than brainwashing!
This "solution" sees the population from outside, as assets to be replaced, manipulated, etc to solve an abstract problem.
But the problem is not "how to have Calabria without mafia" (that has several trivial solutions, from the suggested population replacement to nuking the area to a totalitarian government that maintains absolute control against the mafia).
The problem is rather, "how the population of Calabria can get rid of mafia".
In other words, e.g. Calabria is not just a named piece of land (for someone to rule as they see fit and do whatever to it, including removing the population) - it's first and foremost population and a culture.
If the culture can't change easily (or at all), tough luck. But replacement of the population is not a solution (at least not this side of Stalin).
That is social engineering (not the security term, the historical), and is associated with the worst totalitarianism (closely related to genocide and ethnocide). At the very least it's Machiavellian. And it's even more illegal than brainwashing!
This "solution" sees the population from outside, as assets to be replaced, manipulated, etc to solve an abstract problem.
But the problem is not "how to have Calabria without mafia" (that has several trivial solutions, from the suggested population replacement to nuking the area to a totalitarian government that maintains absolute control against the mafia).
The problem is rather, "how the population of Calabria can get rid of mafia".
In other words, e.g. Calabria is not just a named piece of land (for someone to rule as they see fit and do whatever to it, including removing the population) - it's first and foremost population and a culture.
If the culture can't change easily (or at all), tough luck. But replacement of the population is not a solution (at least not this side of Stalin).
Well the problem is cultural. As i said, mafia doesn't exist because of some "boss" scares everyone into obedience, but because whole local culture is permeating it. If the culture is no longer shared by majority of people, mafia turns into just a sort of crime, and then it can be tackled by policing alone, as it was successfully done with Italian mafia in the U.S. (although not without some trial and error).
What's bad about getting to that point by mixing/diluting the population?
Back to ethnic cleansing, i think categorically criticising it is an utter hypocrisy. All stable European states are products of ethnic cleansing done at some point. And while it is ancient history for Western Europe, in case of Central and Eastern Europe e.g. Poland, Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, it was done after 1945, mostly by decisions pushed by U.S. itself. Ethnic cleansing is good for everyone as long as it's done without too much violence. Middle East is just an example of region where formation of ethnic nationalities - process that predates ethnic cleansing - is not yet complete. There is little else fundamentally broken about Middle East - apart from territories being fragmented sometimes down to village level onto fractions of population divided by ethnic, religious and political lines with and hating each other - a process which must eventually result in some of them being butchered and others amalgamating into nations, divided by political borders and united by... something better than just force. In a piece of land where people who have nothing in common have to coexist, there is either a brutal dictatorship coercing them into bearing with each other, or unlimited all-on-all bloodshed (see pre-2011 and post-2011 Syria). Nothing can fix it apart from thorough ethnic cleansing.
Example of reverse is Poland. There is very little which could shake this country, so united in single culture, single ethnicity and single religion. It totally wasn't that way before post-1945 population transfers (ethnic cleansing).
What's bad about getting to that point by mixing/diluting the population?
Back to ethnic cleansing, i think categorically criticising it is an utter hypocrisy. All stable European states are products of ethnic cleansing done at some point. And while it is ancient history for Western Europe, in case of Central and Eastern Europe e.g. Poland, Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, it was done after 1945, mostly by decisions pushed by U.S. itself. Ethnic cleansing is good for everyone as long as it's done without too much violence. Middle East is just an example of region where formation of ethnic nationalities - process that predates ethnic cleansing - is not yet complete. There is little else fundamentally broken about Middle East - apart from territories being fragmented sometimes down to village level onto fractions of population divided by ethnic, religious and political lines with and hating each other - a process which must eventually result in some of them being butchered and others amalgamating into nations, divided by political borders and united by... something better than just force. In a piece of land where people who have nothing in common have to coexist, there is either a brutal dictatorship coercing them into bearing with each other, or unlimited all-on-all bloodshed (see pre-2011 and post-2011 Syria). Nothing can fix it apart from thorough ethnic cleansing.
Example of reverse is Poland. There is very little which could shake this country, so united in single culture, single ethnicity and single religion. It totally wasn't that way before post-1945 population transfers (ethnic cleansing).
> Example of reverse is Poland. There is very little which could shake this country, so united in single culture, single ethnicity and single religion. It totally wasn't that way before post-1945 population transfers (ethnic cleansing).
There are two Polands since at least 2015. The right-winged, covertly pro-Russian, nationalist Poland, and the pro-EU Poland. The ruling party is using divide&conquer strategy on its own people (as opposed to on enemies, as practiced by ancient Romans).
There are two Polands since at least 2015. The right-winged, covertly pro-Russian, nationalist Poland, and the pro-EU Poland. The ruling party is using divide&conquer strategy on its own people (as opposed to on enemies, as practiced by ancient Romans).
Isn't this what a well-functioning democracy supposed to be?
And, you can't be a Catholic and pro-Russian at same time.
>And, you can't be a Catholic and pro-Russian at same time.
You'd be surprised...
You'd be surprised...
> And, you can't be a Catholic and pro-Russian at same time.
It's more being anti-EU than pro-Russian, but the geopolitics of Poland are brutal enough that these are both almost one and the same. And being a Catholic, at least of the variety we have here, pretty much requires you to be anti-EU. The effect is that, the warlike rethoric notwisthstanding, the right-wing Catholic nationalists are working hard to benefit Russia. I think this is where the word "covertly" comes from in the GP.
It's more being anti-EU than pro-Russian, but the geopolitics of Poland are brutal enough that these are both almost one and the same. And being a Catholic, at least of the variety we have here, pretty much requires you to be anti-EU. The effect is that, the warlike rethoric notwisthstanding, the right-wing Catholic nationalists are working hard to benefit Russia. I think this is where the word "covertly" comes from in the GP.
That's fine. It's the same as to say, claim that Brexiters are "covertly pro-Russian", and it's fine when half the people are against EU, coz if everyone was thinking the same, it's same as no one thinking at all.
1. Polarization among politicians is normal. Political polarization in the society, where family members often don't talk to each other because of opposing political views, is very unhealthy. Most people on either side of the political divide don't read each others' media. People don't disagree, people hate each other.
2. Of course you can. Church hierarchs in Poland are very conservative and often pro-Russian.
https://arbinfo.pl/skad-arcybiskup-jedraszewski-wzial-pomysl...
Grzegorz Rzeczkowski has recently written a book "Katastrofa Posmoleńska", about how the plane crash in 2010 was used to sow dissent and divide. One of the major points of contention was a catholic cross illegally placed in front of the presidential palace to honor the dead. There were pilgrimages, pious crowds, angry people insulting the new president, etc.
Ordo Iuris is a para-legal branch of the Brasilian sect TFP. It successfully campaigns for strict law based on catholic orthodoxy - for example abortion punishable with jail, next up: no divorces. Attorney General Zbigniew Ziobro supports it. It has support from other politicians, like Grzegorz Braun and Krzysztof Bosak (his wife is in OI). That it's not "real" catholicism doesn't matter, because the society at large can't tell the difference. The resemblance is where their power comes from.
Also, the whole Konfederacja Targowicka was highly conservative, nationalist, catholic and pro-Russian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targowica_Confederation
2. Of course you can. Church hierarchs in Poland are very conservative and often pro-Russian.
https://arbinfo.pl/skad-arcybiskup-jedraszewski-wzial-pomysl...
* 2007 - "Homosexuality - the plague of 21 century", a conference in Sankt Petersburg, Russia, attended by Protoiereus Aleksandr Grigoriew
* 2012 - patriarch Ciril (former KGB agent, codename: Michajłow/Mikhailov) meets Polish archbishop Józef Michalik
* 2013 - Polish Church starts a campaign against "gender", by the Russian playbook.
* 2015 - archbishop Jędraszewski uses the word "plague" to describe homosexuals, women, and the liberal left.
* 2019 - the archbishop calls the LGBT movement "plague".
Grzegorz Rzeczkowski has recently written a book "Katastrofa Posmoleńska", about how the plane crash in 2010 was used to sow dissent and divide. One of the major points of contention was a catholic cross illegally placed in front of the presidential palace to honor the dead. There were pilgrimages, pious crowds, angry people insulting the new president, etc.
Ordo Iuris is a para-legal branch of the Brasilian sect TFP. It successfully campaigns for strict law based on catholic orthodoxy - for example abortion punishable with jail, next up: no divorces. Attorney General Zbigniew Ziobro supports it. It has support from other politicians, like Grzegorz Braun and Krzysztof Bosak (his wife is in OI). That it's not "real" catholicism doesn't matter, because the society at large can't tell the difference. The resemblance is where their power comes from.
Also, the whole Konfederacja Targowicka was highly conservative, nationalist, catholic and pro-Russian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targowica_Confederation
> Why no radical approach has been taken to fix it?
And then you go on to suggest what amounts to barely obfuscated ethnic cleansing. Radical indeed.
And then you go on to suggest what amounts to barely obfuscated ethnic cleansing. Radical indeed.
That will only work for a short time. Those young men will still have their grandfathers' rich Sicilian blood coursing through their veins. When they return home - and they will - armed with military training and experience, and with all the fury one might reasonably expect of a young man witnessing the deliberate genocide of his people, there will be hell to pay.
The demographic replacement across Europe is progressing very well, I think it would be a mistake to train and incite young European men in any way. Patience is key now. Shalom.
The demographic replacement across Europe is progressing very well, I think it would be a mistake to train and incite young European men in any way. Patience is key now. Shalom.
Whoever tries to undermine the actions of the mob is next in line for a tragic accident.
In a way, it's a coordination problem. If everyone outside of the mob were to unite at once against them, the mob wouldn't stand a chance. But that's not how activism works.
In a way, it's a coordination problem. If everyone outside of the mob were to unite at once against them, the mob wouldn't stand a chance. But that's not how activism works.
> If everyone [outside of the mob] were to unite at once
That's basically how the mafia works
That's basically how the mafia works
Because it's almost certainly not as simple and unambigious as he's claiming.
Everyone in NYC thinks they know all the ways they can fix Buffalo
Everyone in NYC thinks they know all the ways they can fix Buffalo
>Everyone in NYC thinks they know all the ways they can fix Buffalo
Why would NYC try to solve Buffalo's problems? Isn't that the job of the Buffalo municipal government and state government in Albany?
Why would NYC try to solve Buffalo's problems? Isn't that the job of the Buffalo municipal government and state government in Albany?
>> Everyone in NYC thinks they know all the ways they can fix Buffalo
This sentence intrigued me, but as a life long Californian I wasn't sure what you meant.
This sentence intrigued me, but as a life long Californian I wasn't sure what you meant.
I assume the meant Albany - as in everyone in NYC thinks they know how to fix the state government. Or maybe there is a huge mob presence in Bufallo?
While technically in the same state Buffalo, NY is a city on the Canadian border that is farther away from NYC than Washington D.C. is. As a new yorker, I can safely say my fellow new yorkers can't honestly pretend to know how to tackle what issues Buffalo might be facing.
If you want to go down a rabbit hole you should read about the recent Italian trial of ~300 mobsters. IIRC they have something like 800 witnesses scheduled to appear and they had to build a special courtroom to hold everyone. One of the accused was in hiding and police only located him after finding his cooking channel on YouTube.
Unfortunately English-language reporting is pretty light on the details presented in court but here are two articles to get you started.
About the trial: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55633091
About the prosecutor: https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/mafia-trial...
Unfortunately English-language reporting is pretty light on the details presented in court but here are two articles to get you started.
About the trial: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55633091
About the prosecutor: https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/mafia-trial...
I guess the system is tugging away at it and trying to fix corruption. Italy has the strictest approach to organized crime in Europe. So the government tries to go at it with lots of resources.
This court proceeding for example was the result of a raid where 2500 police officiers participated (and years of work).
See for example https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/italy-mafia-tr...
This court proceeding for example was the result of a raid where 2500 police officiers participated (and years of work).
See for example https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/italy-mafia-tr...
It's hard to do something about an org that is everywhere in the world.
Mussolini cracked down on organized crime pretty hard. But he didn’t completely wipe them out, and so when WW2 rolls along and the Allies are invading Italy, they actually get in contact with the surviving mafiosi and cut a deal with them to gather intelligence and organize resistance against the fascist state. This sort of thing continued after the war because the Mafia are also reliably anti-communist.
So yeah—a radical approach was taken to fix it, and then organized crime was reinstalled by the OSS and the CIA.
So yeah—a radical approach was taken to fix it, and then organized crime was reinstalled by the OSS and the CIA.
I think the mafia is overhyped and an easy way of keeping up the fiction of a clear separation between good and bad, citizens and criminals, oppressed and oppressors.
In this specific case, there is no need whatsoever for the threatening employee to be part of a criminal association. In a land where many people have little to lose and are, by culture, prone to up their threats until they have their way, victims are afraid of refusing their requests. This in turn further encourages the behaviour. The issue, more than the power of the mafia, is the weakness of the state: extremely slow, sloppy and reluctant in prosecuting crime (big or small), very quick in pardoning convicted criminals.
(Italian here, too)
In this specific case, there is no need whatsoever for the threatening employee to be part of a criminal association. In a land where many people have little to lose and are, by culture, prone to up their threats until they have their way, victims are afraid of refusing their requests. This in turn further encourages the behaviour. The issue, more than the power of the mafia, is the weakness of the state: extremely slow, sloppy and reluctant in prosecuting crime (big or small), very quick in pardoning convicted criminals.
(Italian here, too)
This is a classic: https://sites.google.com/site/forgottenemployee/
I had to send it to a friend last year. He started a new job, in the meantime the team he was assigned to was disbanded so no one really knew where to put him. Never got access card, computer etc. Had to call his manager every morning to be let in, so it's not like he tried to hide. Never got assigned any tasks. When covid hit he had home office but still no tasks other than checking in each morning on some standup and saying he worked on nothing. After about half a year a new project finally started and he got something to do. But then he was so tired of it all he quit and got a job where he actually does something meaningful with his days.
I had to send it to a friend last year. He started a new job, in the meantime the team he was assigned to was disbanded so no one really knew where to put him. Never got access card, computer etc. Had to call his manager every morning to be let in, so it's not like he tried to hide. Never got assigned any tasks. When covid hit he had home office but still no tasks other than checking in each morning on some standup and saying he worked on nothing. After about half a year a new project finally started and he got something to do. But then he was so tired of it all he quit and got a job where he actually does something meaningful with his days.
If the "machine" somehow continued to work fine with him not being there for 15 years, why did his position even exist?
The investigation and article focuses too much on "attendance" instead of measuring real work and raising the question as to which other positions are actually useless?
The investigation and article focuses too much on "attendance" instead of measuring real work and raising the question as to which other positions are actually useless?
>If the "machine" somehow continued to work fine with him not being there for 15 years, why did his position even exist?
Tons of paper pushing positions exist so that politicians and high level appointed bureaucrats can do favors for people whom they owe favors. Someone (like the deadbeat brother of someone who donated to the governor's campaign or whatever, just making up a reasonable example) who could never hold such a well paying job on their own merits will be given a job and as long as they continue to punch the clock (though per TFA that's not a hard requirement in Italy) the will continue to get paid.
Tons of paper pushing positions exist so that politicians and high level appointed bureaucrats can do favors for people whom they owe favors. Someone (like the deadbeat brother of someone who donated to the governor's campaign or whatever, just making up a reasonable example) who could never hold such a well paying job on their own merits will be given a job and as long as they continue to punch the clock (though per TFA that's not a hard requirement in Italy) the will continue to get paid.
These positions are sometimes called "patronage" jobs.
The Vice President launched her career with a position like this, which she received from her married boyfriend, Willie Brown.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/kamala-harris-la...
> Granlund said the appointment seemed brazen at the time because of the relationship between Harris and Brown. “Screwing the speaker has its rewards,” he said. “Stevie Wonder could have seen through that play.”
The Vice President launched her career with a position like this, which she received from her married boyfriend, Willie Brown.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/kamala-harris-la...
> Granlund said the appointment seemed brazen at the time because of the relationship between Harris and Brown. “Screwing the speaker has its rewards,” he said. “Stevie Wonder could have seen through that play.”
I think there's a big difference between sucking your way to the front of the line of qualified applicants for a legitimate job vs jobs that exist simply to be given out for patronage purposes.
IMO getting a job by pulling strings isn't as morally dirty as a job existing for no reason other than to transfer money from the taxpayer to someone with connections.
IMO getting a job by pulling strings isn't as morally dirty as a job existing for no reason other than to transfer money from the taxpayer to someone with connections.
because the machine not driven by checks and balances enforced by investors.
I grew up in a socialist country and this type of stuff was the default and not something newsworthy at all. Everyone did it. All the dads in my residential unit would go sign the attendance sheet and come back home by 11 am and have rest of the day to themselves to garden, grow food, take a nap, play cards ect.
How do proponents of govt run services and production units address this core flaw. I've asked many people but have never gotten a good response.
I grew up in a socialist country and this type of stuff was the default and not something newsworthy at all. Everyone did it. All the dads in my residential unit would go sign the attendance sheet and come back home by 11 am and have rest of the day to themselves to garden, grow food, take a nap, play cards ect.
How do proponents of govt run services and production units address this core flaw. I've asked many people but have never gotten a good response.
>>"How do proponents of govt run services and production units address this core flaw. I've asked many people but have never gotten a good response. "
You are assuming two things that are not true. First, that this always happen in public services. That's false.
Second that this kind of thing doesn't happen in private companies. That's false too. For instance, I have worked in a big private company where some very well payed executives (a lot better payed than the guy in this article) dedicated all their time and effort to office politics. In my personal opinion, in some cases, it would have be better for the company if they just stayed home.
How do you address this? Like everything in society: you create a system of check and balances and work hard to keep them in place.
You are assuming two things that are not true. First, that this always happen in public services. That's false.
Second that this kind of thing doesn't happen in private companies. That's false too. For instance, I have worked in a big private company where some very well payed executives (a lot better payed than the guy in this article) dedicated all their time and effort to office politics. In my personal opinion, in some cases, it would have be better for the company if they just stayed home.
How do you address this? Like everything in society: you create a system of check and balances and work hard to keep them in place.
I don’t think we should be lumping those not showing up to work at ALL together with those who do participate but in a harmful, egocentric (whatever) way
One is still arguably fulfilling their responsibilities under their employment contract, the other is very blatantly not
One is still arguably fulfilling their responsibilities under their employment contract, the other is very blatantly not
I my experience working for both government organizations and large private ones, the problem is noticeably worse and more pervasive in the government.
the problem is noticeably worse and more pervasive in the government
The hard limit on it in a private company is it going bust but there is no such constraint in the public sector
The hard limit on it in a private company is it going bust but there is no such constraint in the public sector
I have asked myself about this calculation sometimes. If a lot of private companies go bust, we compare governments that not go bust with the surviving companies.
In terms of resources wasted, how the inefficient of public services would fare against the resources spend in all the companies, not only the surviving ones?
It's something I have never read about, I don't know if some work has been done on this.
In terms of resources wasted, how the inefficient of public services would fare against the resources spend in all the companies, not only the surviving ones?
It's something I have never read about, I don't know if some work has been done on this.
When running a government department there's no way to become more powerful except by getting more people. If you run your department efficiently you don't get to expand and take over other markets, instead you'd lose employees under your command and get a smaller budget, the incentives are wrong
This is spot on. I have worked as a consultant doing reviews of a handful of diverse government departments, and leadership's priorities were always identical: justify headcount increases. Every one will have a presentation about the changing nature of their work, new legislation, the decline in staff vs some past golden age etc etc that shows they need more people.
As you say, its 100% a function of the incentives. This is a general flaw with "command" economies where resources are based on who can argue for them best as opposed to demand for the outputs. There is a lot that can be done in terms of SLAs for operational departments and discretion to the operational side on how money gets spent, to try and come closer to a market driven system, but there is no political will for it.
As you say, its 100% a function of the incentives. This is a general flaw with "command" economies where resources are based on who can argue for them best as opposed to demand for the outputs. There is a lot that can be done in terms of SLAs for operational departments and discretion to the operational side on how money gets spent, to try and come closer to a market driven system, but there is no political will for it.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law#Formula for an example of this.
I can only assume that you guys have not worked for big private companies.
What you are saying is typical of almost any big organization, public or private.
What you are saying is typical of almost any big organization, public or private.
The only difference is that in companies the people being harmed are the owners of the company, and they are the ones with the power to do something about it, either by firing the CEO, or divesting of the c9mpany and investing in its rivals.
In government we all get harmed, and the only way to exit the situation is by abandoning ones homeland.
In government we all get harmed, and the only way to exit the situation is by abandoning ones homeland.
I suppose that's true for some countries, but in most countries you can do something about it, even if it takes a lot of work. You can vote different, join transparency organizations and so on.
Small stock owners have not more power than voters, even less in some cases.
Small stock owners have not more power than voters, even less in some cases.
Voting seems unlikely to affect this matter. Federal employees are three times less likely than those in the private sector to be fired. Elected officials come and go, but the permanent bureaucracy lives on. In many places it is essentially impossible to fire a teacher or police officer outside of egregious wrongdoing.
> You can vote different
Why would someone vote the same if system is clearly corrupt.
Wouldn't this imply that this guy wouldn't have gotten away had people voted "different". Its peoples fault for indirectly voting for this?
> Small stock owners have not more power than voters, even less in some cases.
I usually simply sell the stocks of company that i no longer believe in. Thats how i vote. What do you mean by have no power. Its not mandatory for me to own certain stocks like it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital.
Why would someone vote the same if system is clearly corrupt.
Wouldn't this imply that this guy wouldn't have gotten away had people voted "different". Its peoples fault for indirectly voting for this?
> Small stock owners have not more power than voters, even less in some cases.
I usually simply sell the stocks of company that i no longer believe in. Thats how i vote. What do you mean by have no power. Its not mandatory for me to own certain stocks like it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital.
">>Why would someone vote the same if system is clearly corrupt."
Because the system is not "clearly corrupt", it's just a human organization and it's always going to be some corruption and inefficiency (public or private). You just have to strive to improve it.
">>What do you mean by have no power. Its not mandatory for me to own certain stocks like it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital. "
In your analogy, selling stocks is basically leaving the country, that's something that you can do also normally, but probably is better to try to improve it. I believe, that big stockholders practice something called activist investment, where they push for changes.
I don't think there is any country in the world where is mandatory to go to the hospital, but there is some where not hospital is available to part of the population.
Because the system is not "clearly corrupt", it's just a human organization and it's always going to be some corruption and inefficiency (public or private). You just have to strive to improve it.
">>What do you mean by have no power. Its not mandatory for me to own certain stocks like it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital. "
In your analogy, selling stocks is basically leaving the country, that's something that you can do also normally, but probably is better to try to improve it. I believe, that big stockholders practice something called activist investment, where they push for changes.
I don't think there is any country in the world where is mandatory to go to the hospital, but there is some where not hospital is available to part of the population.
> You just have to strive to improve it.
You didn't address this in my previous comment and repeated it here. You are implying that this guy getting away for 15 yrs wouldn't have happened had people voted "different" and its their fault for not "striving" enough?
> I don't think there is any country in the world where is mandatory to go to the hospital, but there is some where not hospital is available to part of the population.
I clearly said "for some people" in my comment. Not sure why you are repeating what i just said in my own comment.
"it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital."
> In your analogy, selling stocks is basically leaving the country,
This is not an analogy at all. For starters, I can move my money from bad company to a good company. Almost no one in bad countries is allowed to pack up and leave to a better country. Millions of ppl would move to USA in a heartbeat if that was the case.
> better to try to improve it
Ugh. You keep saying this. Are you seriously suggesting that this is the result of people not joining "transparency organizations" (whatever that means). This is such weird circular logic that can never be dis proven. System is not working because we aren't trying hard enough to make it work.
You didn't address this in my previous comment and repeated it here. You are implying that this guy getting away for 15 yrs wouldn't have happened had people voted "different" and its their fault for not "striving" enough?
> I don't think there is any country in the world where is mandatory to go to the hospital, but there is some where not hospital is available to part of the population.
I clearly said "for some people" in my comment. Not sure why you are repeating what i just said in my own comment.
"it is mandatory for some ppl to go to a govt hospital."
> In your analogy, selling stocks is basically leaving the country,
This is not an analogy at all. For starters, I can move my money from bad company to a good company. Almost no one in bad countries is allowed to pack up and leave to a better country. Millions of ppl would move to USA in a heartbeat if that was the case.
> better to try to improve it
Ugh. You keep saying this. Are you seriously suggesting that this is the result of people not joining "transparency organizations" (whatever that means). This is such weird circular logic that can never be dis proven. System is not working because we aren't trying hard enough to make it work.
I think we are talking pass other.
What I'm saying is not so complicated (maybe I complicated it): any human organization will have the same kind of problems. You seem fixated in public vs. private, I don't think that distinction is so important as you do. Can organizations be fixed? Some organizations can be fixed, normally it's hard work.
I will not go beyond that because it would be a pointless discussion here, maybe with a few hours and a few beers we would arrive to some agreement. Obviously I don't have a so good opinion about private markets as the solver of all problems like it seems you do.
What I'm saying is not so complicated (maybe I complicated it): any human organization will have the same kind of problems. You seem fixated in public vs. private, I don't think that distinction is so important as you do. Can organizations be fixed? Some organizations can be fixed, normally it's hard work.
I will not go beyond that because it would be a pointless discussion here, maybe with a few hours and a few beers we would arrive to some agreement. Obviously I don't have a so good opinion about private markets as the solver of all problems like it seems you do.
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Once you are large enough to control the government then you are the government, you can eliminate competition and thus have no incentive to be efficient.
It is large organizations, not govt vs corps/investors.
See Bullshit Work [1] and empire building [2]. They exist in any large org, since the typical incentives for management to advance are to grow a larger headcount under their 'management'.
Of course this is a similar level to measure progress of designing and building an airplane by how much it weighs. But the fact that this management rule is fundamentally stupid does not prevent executives or politicians from using it because it is easier to measure heads and payroll than actual productivity.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire-building
See Bullshit Work [1] and empire building [2]. They exist in any large org, since the typical incentives for management to advance are to grow a larger headcount under their 'management'.
Of course this is a similar level to measure progress of designing and building an airplane by how much it weighs. But the fact that this management rule is fundamentally stupid does not prevent executives or politicians from using it because it is easier to measure heads and payroll than actual productivity.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire-building
Large organizations can fail though, so there is an upper limit to inefficiency; governments can't, so the limit to inefficiency (and corruption) is virtually non-existing.
Nonsense, governments fail all the time
Moreover, in functioning democracies, turnover happens frequently, and there are checks and balances that help keep it in line, including a free press which just loves to expose waste and inefficiency whenever it can.
Also notice that the events in TFA occurred in the area of Italy that is roughly the birthplace of their organized crime syndicates.
This is the kind of thing that happens when governments become dysfunctional, and are captured by authoritarians and/or criminals, not a normally functioning democratic government.
Also note that it is a particularly egregious and spectacular example and makes news, not the ordinary everyday operations.
Moreover, in functioning democracies, turnover happens frequently, and there are checks and balances that help keep it in line, including a free press which just loves to expose waste and inefficiency whenever it can.
Also notice that the events in TFA occurred in the area of Italy that is roughly the birthplace of their organized crime syndicates.
This is the kind of thing that happens when governments become dysfunctional, and are captured by authoritarians and/or criminals, not a normally functioning democratic government.
Also note that it is a particularly egregious and spectacular example and makes news, not the ordinary everyday operations.
> Also notice that the events in TFA occurred in the area of Italy that is roughly the birthplace of their organized crime syndicates.
The country subject of the article - Italy - is extremely inefficient (I don't doubt that there is worse, of course). Absenteism is relatively tolerated; it's not correct that it's a product of organized crime. Sadly, it's a very simple phenomenon of a system without the checks and balances yo mention.
I've observed it first hand, and the absenteist was even open about it - they were actually bragging about it (I'm not joking). I remember another employee waiting to be transferred to another (specific) city, so that he could "do nothing all the day".
> Moreover, in functioning democracies, turnover happens frequently
> This is the kind of thing that happens when governments become dysfunctional, and are captured by authoritarians and/or criminals, not a normally functioning democratic government.
Italy can still be classified as a democracy nonetheless, and it's not going to fail because of inefficiency and corruption.
A company as efficient as the Italian's administration would not survive in a free market, without any doubt.
The country subject of the article - Italy - is extremely inefficient (I don't doubt that there is worse, of course). Absenteism is relatively tolerated; it's not correct that it's a product of organized crime. Sadly, it's a very simple phenomenon of a system without the checks and balances yo mention.
I've observed it first hand, and the absenteist was even open about it - they were actually bragging about it (I'm not joking). I remember another employee waiting to be transferred to another (specific) city, so that he could "do nothing all the day".
> Moreover, in functioning democracies, turnover happens frequently
> This is the kind of thing that happens when governments become dysfunctional, and are captured by authoritarians and/or criminals, not a normally functioning democratic government.
Italy can still be classified as a democracy nonetheless, and it's not going to fail because of inefficiency and corruption.
A company as efficient as the Italian's administration would not survive in a free market, without any doubt.
Incompetence is incompetence, regardless of its source.
And re: the investors, don't governments issue bonds? i.e. all governments that issue bonds have investors.
And re: the investors, don't governments issue bonds? i.e. all governments that issue bonds have investors.
I'd go further and say everyone owns bonds in the common good. Private organizations don't have a monopoly on interdependence, or public ones on incompetence.
That kind of behavior is also pretty much the default in the public sector in the third world country where I live. No wonder everyone's dream down here is to have a job in the public sector.
> How do proponents of govt run services and production units address this core flaw
They'd probably first challenge your premise that it is a flaw. A key tenet of socialism is that all are taken care of, including the lazy and incompetent (and their children). Giving such people bullshit jobs to keep them involved in the system, without overly encouraging their lazyness or allowing them to overly disrupt the system, seems like a feature, not a bug.
> have rest of the day to themselves to garden, grow food
Honestly people gardening and growing their own food sounds like a positive for society, more so than sitting in a cubicle pushing papers or pixels of dubious value.
They'd probably first challenge your premise that it is a flaw. A key tenet of socialism is that all are taken care of, including the lazy and incompetent (and their children). Giving such people bullshit jobs to keep them involved in the system, without overly encouraging their lazyness or allowing them to overly disrupt the system, seems like a feature, not a bug.
> have rest of the day to themselves to garden, grow food
Honestly people gardening and growing their own food sounds like a positive for society, more so than sitting in a cubicle pushing papers or pixels of dubious value.
This sounds like universal basic income but with more steps....
You misidentify the problem. You grew up in an authoritarian country. Authoritarian capitalist countries do exist and are also rife with corruption and cronyism and inefficiencies.
A democracy provides those "checks and balances", in a better way than opaque and undemocratic "investors".
A democracy provides those "checks and balances", in a better way than opaque and undemocratic "investors".
> A democracy provides those "checks and balances"
Italy is a democracy. What explains this particular case ?
Italy is a democracy. What explains this particular case ?
The thing is, the machine barely works. Most hospitals here claim to be understaffed, the queues are immense and this despite healthcare financing being at an all time high.
I suspect this sort of frauds are way more widespread than people realize
I suspect this sort of frauds are way more widespread than people realize
Welcome to government work.
Impressive, but I've seen worse.
My mother used to work as an artisan in a theatre and the two worst offenders of this sort were:
-Sceneshifters, whose relations with their superior were a little bit too good so instead of doing their jobs they left the work to my mom's co-workers at the same time reporting hours for that.
-Actors with a long-term employment contract. In theory they were required to participate in at least one play every two years, but in reality the theatre could not afford to lose them and their brand, so they went years without even stepping in the building.
On a smaller scale every sufficiently large corporation will have at least one such a person per team.
My mother used to work as an artisan in a theatre and the two worst offenders of this sort were:
-Sceneshifters, whose relations with their superior were a little bit too good so instead of doing their jobs they left the work to my mom's co-workers at the same time reporting hours for that.
-Actors with a long-term employment contract. In theory they were required to participate in at least one play every two years, but in reality the theatre could not afford to lose them and their brand, so they went years without even stepping in the building.
On a smaller scale every sufficiently large corporation will have at least one such a person per team.
I had a manager that was out for a week because his father was recovering from some major surgery. When the day came that he was planning on being back in the office he sent another message saying his dad had to go back to the hospital and he would be a few more days.
He sent a couple more messages like this, still not coming in. After 2 or 3 weeks he just stopped saying anything at all. He totally ghosted us.
It took a really long time for him to officially be fired and we eventually had to break into his desk to get stuff out of it. I also heard we were suing him because he still had his work laptop. Bizarrely enough he tried to connect with a couple of us on LinkedIn afterwards so we knew where he went to work next.
A few months later at a tech meetup we met someone from the team we saw he went to work for. They had the same bizarre experience as us. Showed up like normal for awhile and then just stopped coming in.
Even better was that another person in that group had said their company just hired him!
He was a perfectly competent manager and seemed like a nice guy so I can only imagine what the real story was.
He sent a couple more messages like this, still not coming in. After 2 or 3 weeks he just stopped saying anything at all. He totally ghosted us.
It took a really long time for him to officially be fired and we eventually had to break into his desk to get stuff out of it. I also heard we were suing him because he still had his work laptop. Bizarrely enough he tried to connect with a couple of us on LinkedIn afterwards so we knew where he went to work next.
A few months later at a tech meetup we met someone from the team we saw he went to work for. They had the same bizarre experience as us. Showed up like normal for awhile and then just stopped coming in.
Even better was that another person in that group had said their company just hired him!
He was a perfectly competent manager and seemed like a nice guy so I can only imagine what the real story was.
After I (barely) graduated from college with an engineering degree, I got hired by an engineering firm. It soon became apparent to me that my supervisor had no intention to give me any work. They were a government consulting company and so they were getting paid for every hour I supposedly worked and they were fine just keeping me on the books. I would come into work at 10AM, do nothing for five hours and leave at 3PM. Went on for about two years. I was super into my extra curricular activities, so I didn't mind at the time. But for me it was very unhealthy mentally to not be productive like that. Even now I'm aware at my current job working from home, that when my work slows down, I don't feel as good about my life as when I am productive at work.
When I worked in Russia, that was a common way to pay corruption fees for running a business. The way to go was to "employ" some person who never showed up to work, and pay "salary".
Companies I worked for were branches of American ones. They were receiving funds from US, paying salary to software developers, and did not sold anything on local market, no cash was used, hence the workaround with fake employee.
Companies I worked for were branches of American ones. They were receiving funds from US, paying salary to software developers, and did not sold anything on local market, no cash was used, hence the workaround with fake employee.
This is a known practice in some Eastern European countries as well.
Semi-related to this is that payroll is a risky area for external auditors. Payments are generalyl made to people who the auditors will never meet (thousands of them for big companies, or more) so there's always a risk that those people don't exist and that someone has fraudulently created an employee (as in, someone who is responsible for hiring people creates John Doe, registers him as an employee, paycheques go to the person responsible). As an auditor, couple of techniques to deal with this risk, such as examining employee files, googling person's name, but my favourite, and probably the most effective, is asking non-management if they know who that person is. If Steve in Shipping doesn't know who John Doe is, when he is apparently also in Shipping, is a sign that something fishy is going on.
> Now aged 67, he faces charges of abuse of office, forgery and aggravated extortion.
It doesn't sound like it's worked out well for him in the end. In fact, given the forgery and extortion charges, it actually sounds like he worked pretty hard at being so lazy.
It doesn't sound like it's worked out well for him in the end. In fact, given the forgery and extortion charges, it actually sounds like he worked pretty hard at being so lazy.
I recently read/listened about a couple cons. A planet money episode about two brothers selling sham auto warranties. And a lady in California who pretended to be a personal assistant and then starting stealing her client's money.
What always gets me about these con artists is both how talented they are and how much work they do. It never seems like they lack the skills or work ethic to make a legitimate living.
What always gets me about these con artists is both how talented they are and how much work they do. It never seems like they lack the skills or work ethic to make a legitimate living.
Way back when, I used to know a guy who was pretty keen on earning money in illegal ways. He was variously into car theft, drug trafficking, fraud, and whatever other trouble he could find for himself.
He was an incredibly clever bloke, sharp as a tack. Despite getting into multiple police pursuits, plus various other stupid situations that would've ended with a 10+ year sentence, he didn't end up in jail.
If he wanted to, he would've been able to find legitimate work with great pay. But because of some weird self-loathing complex that he had, he just wasn't keen on it.
He was an incredibly clever bloke, sharp as a tack. Despite getting into multiple police pursuits, plus various other stupid situations that would've ended with a 10+ year sentence, he didn't end up in jail.
If he wanted to, he would've been able to find legitimate work with great pay. But because of some weird self-loathing complex that he had, he just wasn't keen on it.
> It doesn't sound like it's worked out well for him in the end.
Half a million for threatening someone and forging some signature? And now the money's gone, presumably the wife and kids miraculously got more wealthy, and what will they do to a 67 year old? Two years of probation? The risk of him doing that again are pretty slim.
Sounds like it worked out and paid extremely well.
Half a million for threatening someone and forging some signature? And now the money's gone, presumably the wife and kids miraculously got more wealthy, and what will they do to a 67 year old? Two years of probation? The risk of him doing that again are pretty slim.
Sounds like it worked out and paid extremely well.
IDK, he made it 15 years and there's little to no chance of them getting the money back from him. Seems like it worked out well.
Italian public sector is long due for a clean-up, this is just the very visible tip of the iceberg. Cases of absenteeism have been reported by media almost on a daily basis for many many years, the problem is that nothing is really happening to those people.
FWIW I am an Italian living abroad since 14 years
FWIW I am an Italian living abroad since 14 years
Not now! When the US is doing very low productivity infrastructure spending aimed essentially at putting money in people pockets as some sort of UBI which is not a UBI in the eyes of those who receive it. Just to propel economic growth
Italy has that organically!
Italy has that organically!
Nope
UBI is a better thing, when you have extreme inefficient bureaucracy, and need to deal with it on a daily basis, this is not a good thing, it is actually slowing down the good parts that are left in the economical system
You want to get rid of unproductive people hindering the productive ones, and UBI is a much better solution.
So it's not organic, unless you mean like cancer is organic, in that sense I might agree.
UBI in contrast, can be seen as something more benign
UBI is a better thing, when you have extreme inefficient bureaucracy, and need to deal with it on a daily basis, this is not a good thing, it is actually slowing down the good parts that are left in the economical system
You want to get rid of unproductive people hindering the productive ones, and UBI is a much better solution.
So it's not organic, unless you mean like cancer is organic, in that sense I might agree.
UBI in contrast, can be seen as something more benign
UBI deflates the morale of those who receive it.
Costly infrastructure building is actually neutral or maybe even net positive because people have the impression that they are screwing the government over, which is always good for self esteem.
I bet this guy who skipped work for 15 years was super confident and extremely prone to spending the money he pocketed (but did not earn)
Costly infrastructure building is actually neutral or maybe even net positive because people have the impression that they are screwing the government over, which is always good for self esteem.
I bet this guy who skipped work for 15 years was super confident and extremely prone to spending the money he pocketed (but did not earn)
A UBI restricted to those that can land government gigs is not very universal.
UBI directed to those who spend it is essentially universal because it's up for grabs for anybody else
I do not understand what this statement means.
I think the argument is that even capitalism is UBI because everyone has the opportunity to become the next Bezos... or something.
Maybe he was very productive in other endeavors, personally or societally and it was a net gain :) or maybe hundreds of patients over 15 years had undesirable results at the hospital that would of been better had his salary gone to somebody who showed up?
UBI sounds pretty good in these situations.
UBI sounds pretty good in these situations.
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My thoughts on this are similar to Dilbert’s https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-05-05
Wally, Peter, George, the three teachers
I've never run into the phantom employee but I did work with one guy who ended up being the last person at a remote site who then picked up a second remote fulltime job.
I light a candle to his memory now and again.
I light a candle to his memory now and again.
I have seen this happen, first hand, in the public sector. I used to work with two guys in a company that shall remain nameless. After a while, they started taking some of the team to lunch every Friday. Not a quick, frugal lunch, but lunch at some nice restaurant downtown, with lots of food and drinks, taking a couple of hours. And they would sign for those lunches all the time, as company-approved expenses.
After a while, having become a bit closer with them, they confessed to how they did it: they had found a bug in the company's control system, where each of them could approve the other guy's expenses. So they would take turns signing off their lunches; after a while, they felt confident enough to invite other people to them.
I stopped working with them soon after that, but I heard they kept up this act for quite a while.
After a while, having become a bit closer with them, they confessed to how they did it: they had found a bug in the company's control system, where each of them could approve the other guy's expenses. So they would take turns signing off their lunches; after a while, they felt confident enough to invite other people to them.
I stopped working with them soon after that, but I heard they kept up this act for quite a while.
Fool them once, shame on you. Fool them 15 years, shame on them.
"There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.'"
I don't care what they say - greatest president ever.
I don't care what they say - greatest president ever.
Waawie. There exists a whole world out there where this is not just hypothetically possible but actually happening. I was born in the wrong place...
The brits always coming up with these funny workplace examples always from the PIGS countries, and no way to comment them. Here's a pedophile english teacher detained just today in Madrid, Spain, he sexually abused 36 minors. https://elpais.com/espana/madrid/2021-04-23/detenido-un-prof...
You have a point about black legend remnants, and this happens everywhere as other comments attest to, BUT here is a spanish (Alicante) public servant that also reached 15 years without working, and this is not Mafia related:
https://www.publico.es/sociedad/funcionario-estuvo-15-anos-v...
https://www.publico.es/sociedad/funcionario-estuvo-15-anos-v...
excellent work, but what was he doing in those intevening 15 years?
wasn't he worried he'd be found out?
how did he manage to make so many people lie for him to keep him employed?
so many questions, from, erm, an academic stand point...
wasn't he worried he'd be found out?
how did he manage to make so many people lie for him to keep him employed?
so many questions, from, erm, an academic stand point...
This kind of thing is rampant in Italy's public sector. They basically just found one of the worst offenders (i.e. the guy that half the public sector employees aim to be) and are making an example out of him.
If this wasn't broadly considered ok he wouldn't have gotten away with it for 15yr and they wouldn't be going back 15yr to find "alleged threats" he made. Based on my experience the threat was something along the lines of "you know if you take a hard stance on this misconduct your career progression is dead" which is something that not everyone has to be explicitly told but a situation that damn near every career public servant (not just in italy) will have to deal with at some point.
If this wasn't broadly considered ok he wouldn't have gotten away with it for 15yr and they wouldn't be going back 15yr to find "alleged threats" he made. Based on my experience the threat was something along the lines of "you know if you take a hard stance on this misconduct your career progression is dead" which is something that not everyone has to be explicitly told but a situation that damn near every career public servant (not just in italy) will have to deal with at some point.
The mafia was vouching for him for 15 years. Now he pissed someone off so they don’t protect his job anymore.
This is one notch above..
2,094 ghost employees working in USC: report
https://www.dawn.com/news/1615213
2,094 ghost employees working in USC: report
https://www.dawn.com/news/1615213
If he was able to do this for 15 years and no one noticed I'm gonna have to put the blame on the employer. His job must not be necessary.
The old fashioned "rest and vest"
This is why I schedule regular one-on-ones with the people I manage, need to make sure I haven't forgotten anyone over the weekend.
This man is a hero.
As with many things the underlying problem is the 'public' sector which presumably is funded (partly or other wise) by the government. A government generally has no consequences of incompetence.
No wonder the Europe is on decline and very soon it will be worse than Africa. Laziest employees I ever seen in my life are all from Europe.
They informed me that no, he was on my team and were incredulous that I wasn’t managing him. I showed them that I had never received his name in any e-mail or Slack history since I started at the company, and no team members had ever worked with him. I messaged him in Slack to ask who he was working with, but he never responded despite being online.
HR was very secretive after that, but from what I can gather the employee was reorganized into my team but no one ever told me. He worked at a remote office, so he simply sat around waiting for someone to contact him with instructions for what to do next. I don’t know how long he managed to collect paychecks without doing anything at all, but he disappeared from Slack shortly after this incident.
HR at that company had other issues. I’m glad I don’t work there any more.