Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors(farms.com)
farms.com
Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors
https://www.farms.com/news/farmers-deserve-the-right-to-repair-their-tractors-168298.aspx
270 comments
I also grew up in a rural high school with a large farming population. I categorize farmers into three types:
1. Professional - Usually highly educated, good business sense. Probably obtained an advanced degree in agriculture science, though not always, some self-educate very successfully. These farmers generally do not like John Deere and think they are overpriced, not as good as they once were, and find the lack of right to repair infuriating.
2. Uneducated - Likely barely passed high school due to a complete lack of effort, because they were going to be farmers and school, "couldn't teach them nothin." Farming is an identity for these individuals. Buying a John Deere is part of that lifestyle. Some kids grow up with a Ferrari on their wall, these kids had a John Deere tractor. The problem with these individuals as it relates to business is that they do not understand business or accounting and probably only have a rudimentary understanding of ag science. They overspend on equipment and their only basic ag science understanding leaves them unable to adapt as well as the pros to droughts, infestations, and other adverse conditions.
3. Gentleman Farmers - Usually educated, but perhaps in an unrelated field. Farming is a hobby. Perhaps a retirement "job." If they make money, great, if not, well, they have money to spare. They buy John Deere, because they can afford it and because it seems like the obvious choice. They are happy to pay their local dealer to fix or repair their tractor, it is something they don't have to worry about and costs are not a real going concern. Breaking even is a success.
Both the less educated farmers and the gentleman farmers treat John Deere tractors as a status symbol (every other farmer know exactly how much a John Deere tractor costs). And when you know how much they cost it is like seeing someone drive by in a Ferrari or Lamborghini, because, well, they cost as much as a Ferrari or Lamborghini, if not more. The professional farmers could care less because they are running a business.
1. Professional - Usually highly educated, good business sense. Probably obtained an advanced degree in agriculture science, though not always, some self-educate very successfully. These farmers generally do not like John Deere and think they are overpriced, not as good as they once were, and find the lack of right to repair infuriating.
2. Uneducated - Likely barely passed high school due to a complete lack of effort, because they were going to be farmers and school, "couldn't teach them nothin." Farming is an identity for these individuals. Buying a John Deere is part of that lifestyle. Some kids grow up with a Ferrari on their wall, these kids had a John Deere tractor. The problem with these individuals as it relates to business is that they do not understand business or accounting and probably only have a rudimentary understanding of ag science. They overspend on equipment and their only basic ag science understanding leaves them unable to adapt as well as the pros to droughts, infestations, and other adverse conditions.
3. Gentleman Farmers - Usually educated, but perhaps in an unrelated field. Farming is a hobby. Perhaps a retirement "job." If they make money, great, if not, well, they have money to spare. They buy John Deere, because they can afford it and because it seems like the obvious choice. They are happy to pay their local dealer to fix or repair their tractor, it is something they don't have to worry about and costs are not a real going concern. Breaking even is a success.
Both the less educated farmers and the gentleman farmers treat John Deere tractors as a status symbol (every other farmer know exactly how much a John Deere tractor costs). And when you know how much they cost it is like seeing someone drive by in a Ferrari or Lamborghini, because, well, they cost as much as a Ferrari or Lamborghini, if not more. The professional farmers could care less because they are running a business.
4. The BTO (Big Time Operator). Deere has been known to give them very compelling deals that the other manufacturers cannot match. The smaller farmers are more likely to buy used equipment, so this also ensures that when the largest farmers buy Deere, green equipment is what is found on the used lot.
The biggest operators get it on a deal but the small to mid tail of the curve needs to pay full price but they aspire for the better product - which is where the margins are.
Almost a veblen good but not quite by traditional definitions.
FWIW the lock-in for farming in terms of equipment and seed product is so bananas to me. Really feels like the large corpos have got everyone squeezed.
Almost a veblen good but not quite by traditional definitions.
FWIW the lock-in for farming in terms of equipment and seed product is so bananas to me. Really feels like the large corpos have got everyone squeezed.
This is a good point. I also wonder if the service agreements start to make a lot more sense for the BTOs due to scale and so they are less likely to be concerned about the right to repair.
A lot, I dare say even most, of the new equipment is leased to the first generation customers. They will run them for a year, two tops, and then it will go out on the used market for the 'regular' farmers to buy. You won't find much concern about ownership agreements when they are renting the equipment.
I also grew up in rural areas, and I agree with throwaway. your comments are condescending and also inaccurate. The more 'uneducated' farmers took pride in fixing their equipment, especially their tractors. Your comments are so far off I wonder if you even grew up in such an area or if you didn't really know your classmates at all.
For one thing, who in the heck lives in a rural area knows that many types of farmers. Farms are huge and school district areas are small.
For one thing, who in the heck lives in a rural area knows that many types of farmers. Farms are huge and school district areas are small.
We all need to fight for legislation that gives us the right to repair everything from our iPhones to our tractors.
Well there’s other ways of controlling this besides increased regulation, like using capitalism and stop using JD.
But back to the point, your parent stated the person was lying and you defended it. Do you mean to say we must say whatever and lie to advance an agenda?
But back to the point, your parent stated the person was lying and you defended it. Do you mean to say we must say whatever and lie to advance an agenda?
> Some kids grow up with a Ferrari on their wall, these kids had a John Deere tractor.
John Deere has a significant toy business that has to pay off big time considering how many of these customers they produce (and the toys themselves are quite expensive IIRC).
John Deere has a significant toy business that has to pay off big time considering how many of these customers they produce (and the toys themselves are quite expensive IIRC).
Wow. What an incredibly offensive comment. I love how HN understands the right to repair when it comes to their gadgets, but when it comes to tractors it's probably because the farmers are uneducated hicks. Please tell me more how they don't understand AG science enough, but you have such a strong grasp on it.
JD tractors were and are reliable and top tier in quality, that's why they are popular and that's why people stick to the brand. I've built Kioti tractors when I was teenager. They'd do the job if you had to use it, but it's no JD in terms of quality.
Farmers just want the quality they've always had with JD but the ability to fix simple stuff like they used to without it costing them an arm and a leg.
The stereotypes you listed off don't sound like anyone I've ever experienced. They sound like caricatures you painted in your head with your lack of understanding.
JD tractors were and are reliable and top tier in quality, that's why they are popular and that's why people stick to the brand. I've built Kioti tractors when I was teenager. They'd do the job if you had to use it, but it's no JD in terms of quality.
Farmers just want the quality they've always had with JD but the ability to fix simple stuff like they used to without it costing them an arm and a leg.
The stereotypes you listed off don't sound like anyone I've ever experienced. They sound like caricatures you painted in your head with your lack of understanding.
I am sorry you took offense to the comment, it was not meant to be offensive. I never claimed to have any grasp on agriculture science. And I never called anyone a "hick." And of course I am speaking in generalities. Simply observing what I saw growing up. I grew up on a small farm (though I certainly would never call myself a farmer) and grew up with farmers of all types and all income levels. Some chose to be willfully ignorant and not really learn how to run the family business even though that was their end goal and some did. I don't think this was a matter of capacity of the individuals. Some of those that were willfully ignorant were quite well off and some were not quite as well off. Some took a formal route to education, some self studied. It is simple anecdotal observation that some of the more successful farmers I know a). Educated themselves one way or another. b). Those same farmers, for the most part, have started or have already moved away from John Deere. Largely due to the right to repair issues, in part due to the premium cost, but some of the farmers that I have talked to have relayed to me that they feel the quality has dropped, which is perhaps not reality, simply their perception based on frustrations surrounding right to repair. John Deere has also rapidly expanded their product categories and not all of their new products share the same famous reliability as their ag products, which could negatively impact overall perception of the brand.
Generally when someone is calling another uneducated it’s offensive. You can probably safely remove that word from online discourse and people wouldn’t react that way.
Talking about anybody’s education level, specifically when saying they can’t do or understand something because of it, is extremely offensive and hateful.
Talking about anybody’s education level, specifically when saying they can’t do or understand something because of it, is extremely offensive and hateful.
The tone of your comment changed dramatically in this reply. You didn't have to say hick, you implied it with your uneducated rant. You simply don't understand why they want a John Deere, and it's not because they are uneducated.
Also, maybe never try to shove people into categories, especially only 3 categories. Especially one category being "uneducated". You reached all that from a topic about repairing tractors and their choice of brand. Think about that.
Your "anecdote" doesn't match my experience and it lines up with an outsider perspective with a dash of elitism. You said you don't know anything about AG science, so how could you judge others knowledge of it?
Also, maybe never try to shove people into categories, especially only 3 categories. Especially one category being "uneducated". You reached all that from a topic about repairing tractors and their choice of brand. Think about that.
Your "anecdote" doesn't match my experience and it lines up with an outsider perspective with a dash of elitism. You said you don't know anything about AG science, so how could you judge others knowledge of it?
I appreciate your feedback. I phrased poorly. By uneducated I never meant formal education exclusively. There are many ways to learn and I personally find self study to be the most effective.
And I am sorry I came across as elitist, I grew up lower to lower-middle class, and my parents grew up dirt poor. As my mother would say, "you come from a long line of poor farmers."
I judge because those students who actively refused to learn were my peers...sometimes my relatives. Again, I would say it was 50/50. Some of those individuals were very well off, and now struggle to manage the farm they inherited. Others grew up in poverty and now have advanced degrees, or have otherwise educated themselves and run a very successful farm or now own a very successful farm.
And I am sorry I came across as elitist, I grew up lower to lower-middle class, and my parents grew up dirt poor. As my mother would say, "you come from a long line of poor farmers."
I judge because those students who actively refused to learn were my peers...sometimes my relatives. Again, I would say it was 50/50. Some of those individuals were very well off, and now struggle to manage the farm they inherited. Others grew up in poverty and now have advanced degrees, or have otherwise educated themselves and run a very successful farm or now own a very successful farm.
> 'Likely barely passed high school due to a complete lack of effort, because they were going to be farmers and school, "couldn't teach them nothin."
> The problem with these individuals as it relates to business is that they do not understand business or accounting and probably only have a rudimentary understanding of ag science.
> their only basic ag science understanding leaves them unable to adapt as well as the pros to droughts, infestations, and other adverse conditions."
So please tell me, how did you come to realize these faults in these people you met. Did they explain to you that their accounting was bad, did you see their books, did you test their soil, did you see them struggle with an infestation, or are you simply guessing and hurling insults?
Since you prefixed your statement with "probably" I'm going to guess that you're using the #2 category to shit on a group of people while the #1 category is used to argue your point that smart farmers support your conclusion that john deere = bad.
This situation has nothing to do with "uneducated farmers" and everything to do with JD being the top tier brand but also shafting its customers by not allowing them to repair their product.
Kubota doesn't come close to JD, especially in larger tractors and integrations.
> The problem with these individuals as it relates to business is that they do not understand business or accounting and probably only have a rudimentary understanding of ag science.
> their only basic ag science understanding leaves them unable to adapt as well as the pros to droughts, infestations, and other adverse conditions."
So please tell me, how did you come to realize these faults in these people you met. Did they explain to you that their accounting was bad, did you see their books, did you test their soil, did you see them struggle with an infestation, or are you simply guessing and hurling insults?
Since you prefixed your statement with "probably" I'm going to guess that you're using the #2 category to shit on a group of people while the #1 category is used to argue your point that smart farmers support your conclusion that john deere = bad.
This situation has nothing to do with "uneducated farmers" and everything to do with JD being the top tier brand but also shafting its customers by not allowing them to repair their product.
Kubota doesn't come close to JD, especially in larger tractors and integrations.
We would struggle to discuss anything of any significant size if simplified models were not used. John Deere forecasted earnings of $5 billion this year and statistics about the education of all of their customers presumably don't exist.
You may disagree with the model used, but it was clearly an opinionated one based on personal experience. If you have a different one, then we can all compare, contrast and hopefully continue a curious conversation.
You may disagree with the model used, but it was clearly an opinionated one based on personal experience. If you have a different one, then we can all compare, contrast and hopefully continue a curious conversation.
An anecdote is not a simplified model. They were stereotypes.
He shoved "uneducated farmers" into the same group of people that idolized John Deere for the brand alone, but did not offer any connection between the two.
Typical HN elitism. My anecdotes do differ, and it's mostly generational. Either you're a younger farmer that has gone to A&M and you're heavy into Ag Science or you're more old school and you use techniques passed down. Or you're a big time operator and none of this applies.
Nothing to do with what OP said.
He shoved "uneducated farmers" into the same group of people that idolized John Deere for the brand alone, but did not offer any connection between the two.
Typical HN elitism. My anecdotes do differ, and it's mostly generational. Either you're a younger farmer that has gone to A&M and you're heavy into Ag Science or you're more old school and you use techniques passed down. Or you're a big time operator and none of this applies.
Nothing to do with what OP said.
Relax. This commenter is speaking in generalities and it's like you're interpreting it as a personal attack.
They simply said that there exist a category of farmers who do not participate in the normal schooling system and choose brands based only on status. This phenomena exists for nearly all brands. You can't possibly be disputing that these people exist?
Keep away from ad hominem attacks, they only serve to dilute your argument.
They simply said that there exist a category of farmers who do not participate in the normal schooling system and choose brands based only on status. This phenomena exists for nearly all brands. You can't possibly be disputing that these people exist?
Keep away from ad hominem attacks, they only serve to dilute your argument.
His categories are false. You think all the farmers that don't have an education are the same ones that choose the brand based on status?
No, education is generational. Most younger farmers have gone to a good ag science school like A&M. Most older farmers don't have an education but have tons of experience and use techniques passed down that are essentially the same as what is taught in schools.
Whether you brand whore or not is not based on your education status, which is what OP suggested.
No, education is generational. Most younger farmers have gone to a good ag science school like A&M. Most older farmers don't have an education but have tons of experience and use techniques passed down that are essentially the same as what is taught in schools.
Whether you brand whore or not is not based on your education status, which is what OP suggested.
Deere does not have a monopoly on quality. Yes, if you compare them to Kioti (a discount brand), they are superior, but there are other manufacturers (NH, Mahindra, Kubota, etc) where they stand up just as well.
Try sitting in a Kubota for 12 hours vs a JD. Your ass will be able to tell a difference.
At this point it's better to buy a Kubota to avoid the lock-in, but JD is still far superior when it comes to the attention to detail.
At this point it's better to buy a Kubota to avoid the lock-in, but JD is still far superior when it comes to the attention to detail.
You must know my neighbour. He was running a Kubota for a year or two, but it didn't take him long to replace it with a Deere.
I have most of the major brands in my shed. I don't particularly care much about what colour I'm using. Purchases have been made based on cost, which has included some green equipment when a great auction find has been found.
My experience says that JD has the UX nailed. When you're spending 12 hour days in the seat, the little things do start to make a big difference. I am not sure it is fair to be dismissive of it as being a result of great branding. The equipment is meant to be used and the experience and comfort while using it can most definitely be worth a premium to many.
I have most of the major brands in my shed. I don't particularly care much about what colour I'm using. Purchases have been made based on cost, which has included some green equipment when a great auction find has been found.
My experience says that JD has the UX nailed. When you're spending 12 hour days in the seat, the little things do start to make a big difference. I am not sure it is fair to be dismissive of it as being a result of great branding. The equipment is meant to be used and the experience and comfort while using it can most definitely be worth a premium to many.
This made me think of how many developers (who spend 10 hrs/day in front of their screen) choose Apples products. A linux machine might be better on performance, maintainance, and all that, but Linux does not care about UX the way Apple does.
What about all the developers (who spend 10 hrs/day in front of their screen) that choose unix machines?
The ux for the things I _actually do_ is way better on a linux machine.
Are any of the unixes[1], other than macOS, commonly used as the system powering the screen?
[1] https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
[1] https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
You're not going to convince someone in the cult of Apple that their overpriced machine isn't worth the premium.
>Linux does not care about UX the way Apple does.
What UX? A terminal?
Linux is also only an operating system kernel.
What UX? A terminal?
Linux is also only an operating system kernel.
The only reason most devs I work with don't use a Linux laptop is that our corporate security, vpn, and auditing software isn't available for Linux. We settle for garbage-tier UX from docker + x11.app so we can do our jobs, not because Apple cares about anything.
I actually don't know any engineers that use apple. A lot of graphic artists and designers for sure.
Lots of devs can't choose their platform. It's often a choice between Windows and Mac, if that. On a lot of the jobs I've worked, it was Windows-only. Give me a Linux machine instead and I will spend the day as happy as a genie who was permanently released from its bottle.
An actual VT4xx or VT5xx is the best terminal. An xterm window is a decent substitute (and if it comes with the optional Tek emulator, has some small extra whistles, but I think that has mostly been ripped out of all xterms by now).
The MacOS terminal is... so-so. I mean, it's not horrible, but it is also not great.
I am not convinced that Apple kit has the best UX (and I am in the same room as two macs that I alternate between).
The MacOS terminal is... so-so. I mean, it's not horrible, but it is also not great.
I am not convinced that Apple kit has the best UX (and I am in the same room as two macs that I alternate between).
I run i3/tmux/xterm wherever I can (also back when I was doing frontend). I definitely prefer this over anything Apple has been able to offer me in terms of user experience.
My comment above was just a reflection of a connection I hadn't made before. :)
My comment above was just a reflection of a connection I hadn't made before. :)
I somewhere between like and REALLY like the laptops. Still not convinced by the touch bar on the work 16" MacBook Pro. But, it does seem kind of neat in many ways. At some point, I may experiment with its tex suggestions, for surrealism, if nothing else.
This is old, but I remember my grandpa saying he didn't buy Deere because "everything's backwards." Not sure if he meant the controls or mechanics, or how literal he was being. Beyond that, he didn't seem to care about brand all that much, and he had great luck with his Kubota.
Hi, I worked on the new (as of ~2014) CommandArm touch screen and joystick. :)
Developing software at John Deere was frustrating, but they have some really fun, interesting problems and other, larger political/cultural problems.
Developing software at John Deere was frustrating, but they have some really fun, interesting problems and other, larger political/cultural problems.
The issue is really about freedom. If you don't care that a company can decide whether or not you may farm, then rent their equipment. If you do care, then you want 100% control of that equipment. Or as close to 100% as you can get.
It's sort of comparable to writing software in C (an ISO standard with many open source compilers) to run on your commodity x86 hardware versus writing an iOS Apple Store app. In one case, you have almost complete control of the HW and SW, in the other, you have no control and can be prevented from doing so at any moment for any reason.
It's sort of comparable to writing software in C (an ISO standard with many open source compilers) to run on your commodity x86 hardware versus writing an iOS Apple Store app. In one case, you have almost complete control of the HW and SW, in the other, you have no control and can be prevented from doing so at any moment for any reason.
It's not that simple. There are features of these high end tractors such as automation and satellite guidance that allow you to change the scale of your operation. In a sense, you have to make a choice about what kind of business you're going to be at the same time as you're choosing your equipment.
There are aftermarket solutions for that as well. Deere is for people who want a deluxe brand that is all encompassing vs users who don't mind fiddling with their hardware.
Yeah but if you're running a fleet, then you have to scale your outfitting and maintenance to handle that. It's not practical for a lot of people. A lot of businesses lose their ass by trying to focus on too many things at the same time.
I'm not saying this is the right way for ag. to go forward. But all our incentives right now are to either specialize a small farm around high margin product or scale as wide as possible on low margin product. That is going to set a lot of people on the course of basically renting their equipment and deferring the maintenance to the provider.
We probably should create some incentives for farmers to be more self reliant. That would probably be good for our sustainability but I don't think we should ignore that currently the choice isn't black and white.
I'm not saying this is the right way for ag. to go forward. But all our incentives right now are to either specialize a small farm around high margin product or scale as wide as possible on low margin product. That is going to set a lot of people on the course of basically renting their equipment and deferring the maintenance to the provider.
We probably should create some incentives for farmers to be more self reliant. That would probably be good for our sustainability but I don't think we should ignore that currently the choice isn't black and white.
Not sure what scale you're talking about, but Kubota doesn't really compete with Deere on larger tractors. I don't see any tracked options from Kubota and their tractors don't really go much over 200 horsepower.
Deere and Kubota only really compete at the smaller/utility side of things.
Also the reason people get locked into Deere isn't just the tractors, but the vertical integration. Can you run your John Deere NT or DB series planter with Greenstar 2 on a Kubota? Possibly, but you've got to buy the hardware from Deere and you'd have to add auto steer, etc. (FWIW Kubota doesn't even sell planters)
Deere and Kubota only really compete at the smaller/utility side of things.
Also the reason people get locked into Deere isn't just the tractors, but the vertical integration. Can you run your John Deere NT or DB series planter with Greenstar 2 on a Kubota? Possibly, but you've got to buy the hardware from Deere and you'd have to add auto steer, etc. (FWIW Kubota doesn't even sell planters)
I live in an extremely rural area. The Deere integrations are a huge reason.
Another that's not talked about is Deere field service. It's just DAMN GOOD. If you're running a serious tractor(7-9 series ) and it's the middle of planting/harvest hours can be the difference between red and black margins. Deere will roll out a team with 30ft trailer of parts out in hours if you have an issue. CaseIH will sorta match this, kubota and New Holand will simply not.
Exactly, and at the moment in time you don't care about "right to repair" - you need to get back up and running now. Which has led me to believe "right to repair" is a ruse, but for what?
Right to repair tractors has become talking point because it is a use case that cannot be easily dismissed as "unimportant to real Americans" since many Americans value individualism, hard work, and their countries reputation for food production - all of which are idealized in the concept of the independent American farmer.
> Which has led me to believe "right to repair" is a ruse, but for what?
You what? Being able to repair and control your hardware is good in itself. It doesn't need to be justified, except as a means to counteract the much stronger lobby that is trying to destroy it.
Your point about this maybe being a ruse is like the one that maybe climate change is a ruse: so what if it is? The measures we introduced to combat the (perceived?) threat will result in a net benefit to society, the environment and individual freedoms. Boo, hoo I'm living in a better world unnecessarily. Very tragic.
You what? Being able to repair and control your hardware is good in itself. It doesn't need to be justified, except as a means to counteract the much stronger lobby that is trying to destroy it.
Your point about this maybe being a ruse is like the one that maybe climate change is a ruse: so what if it is? The measures we introduced to combat the (perceived?) threat will result in a net benefit to society, the environment and individual freedoms. Boo, hoo I'm living in a better world unnecessarily. Very tragic.
A ruse to give people flexibility in how they want to repair their own equipment? What a terrible thing.
In one of my other comments I noted that disabling emissions controls would probably be top priority for most of the farmers complaining about not being able to modify how their tractors work.
Nothing about "right to repair" would disallow you to use Deere field service if you want to.
In hours, aren't you already in the red? Is it tens of hours that makes the difference?
So... I think your right. Underlying a lot of trends eroding user/owner rights are practical benefits. This as true for ipods as it is for for tractors.
My grandfather had an old Massey, and several others for parts. It's easy to idealize this from afar (I do), but young farmers often don't want it.
That said, the individual preference and the systemic trend are two different things. The right to repair, is also the right to have a 3rd party repair. Competition, choice. At some point along the trend, it's about more than that. There comes a point where "who actually owns this farm" starts to be a question. JD might exercise the same power over farmers that Apple exercises over app developers. A my way or the highway world.
My grandfather had an old Massey, and several others for parts. It's easy to idealize this from afar (I do), but young farmers often don't want it.
That said, the individual preference and the systemic trend are two different things. The right to repair, is also the right to have a 3rd party repair. Competition, choice. At some point along the trend, it's about more than that. There comes a point where "who actually owns this farm" starts to be a question. JD might exercise the same power over farmers that Apple exercises over app developers. A my way or the highway world.
(not to pile on)
Right to repair also covers independent/third party service. People may not want to repair the hardware themselves, but they may want to take it to a cheaper/closer third party to repair it. The local JD service may be in the next county, but there may be a local mechanic that could repair the tractor, but cannot due to restrictions, licensing, etc.
Of course you may not want the local guy to try because they may not be competent enough, but people think that should be the owner's decision, not the manufacturer's.
Right to repair also covers independent/third party service. People may not want to repair the hardware themselves, but they may want to take it to a cheaper/closer third party to repair it. The local JD service may be in the next county, but there may be a local mechanic that could repair the tractor, but cannot due to restrictions, licensing, etc.
Of course you may not want the local guy to try because they may not be competent enough, but people think that should be the owner's decision, not the manufacturer's.
This is a big problem, you can have a used JD part but it won’t work because JD needs to squeeze every once of profit from their customers. This service based trend is the worst type of rent seeking I’ve seen in years
Lots of people don't care about their right to vote but we should all freak out when it gets taken away from them.
Maybe... Compare these different proposals:
1. Disenfranchise everyone who hasn't voted in the last 10 years.
2. Require a two-year waiting period from the time you register as a voter before you can vote. Require registrations to be renewed every 6 years. Voting automatically renews an unexpired registration.
It seems to me that both proposals should attract a lot of attention. But one is more alarming than the other. And you could water it down to be even less alarming and make some good arguments for your proposal. This is how you boil a frog.
Here's one nobody seems to care about:
3. Require people to join a private club to be able to vote in primary elections. Only allow candidates who were nominated by those private clubs. Allow the private clubs to be controlled by a handful of people.
You know, now I think about it, right-to-repair has a great deal in common with right-to-vote.
1. Disenfranchise everyone who hasn't voted in the last 10 years.
2. Require a two-year waiting period from the time you register as a voter before you can vote. Require registrations to be renewed every 6 years. Voting automatically renews an unexpired registration.
It seems to me that both proposals should attract a lot of attention. But one is more alarming than the other. And you could water it down to be even less alarming and make some good arguments for your proposal. This is how you boil a frog.
Here's one nobody seems to care about:
3. Require people to join a private club to be able to vote in primary elections. Only allow candidates who were nominated by those private clubs. Allow the private clubs to be controlled by a handful of people.
You know, now I think about it, right-to-repair has a great deal in common with right-to-vote.
Not all states require #3. Indiana does not, but you have to pick one.
People don't get to just buy a different brand of government though, unlike tractors.
Commodities tend to have very low profit margin. It wouldn't be surprising if organizations like John deer sell their tractors at a steep loss temporarily which could prevent farmers from being able to buy other brands.
John Deere MSRP is well above most competition.
A friend of mine, one of the larger farmers in the area, purchased a new CaseIH tractor a couple years back. Even before it arrived in his yard, the Deere salesman caught wind of the purchase and arrived with "We can't be having that." Made my friend an offer he couldn't refuse and the CaseIH tractor was sold before even a single hour was put on it.
A high MSRP means a lot of room to play with the numbers.
A high MSRP means a lot of room to play with the numbers.
> I just want to throw my 2¢ out there, as a mid-20's who went to a high-rural-population high school, there's an entire new generation of farmers who have a) accepted that Deere's need constant/regular service calls, and b) don't care to learn how to fix it (or older equipment) themselves.
They should still want right to repair for the same reason that most of the internet wants to run on GPL software. Almost all the companies pay some vendor for it, but unlike the farmers they can just take their business elsewhere if a vendor turns bad.
They should still want right to repair for the same reason that most of the internet wants to run on GPL software. Almost all the companies pay some vendor for it, but unlike the farmers they can just take their business elsewhere if a vendor turns bad.
> At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other
Is your core competency farming or tractor repair? That said, I am sympathetic to farmers who want to repair their equipment. There's a scale where you have enough free time that with simple enough equipment, it does make sense to repair it yourself.
Is your core competency farming or tractor repair? That said, I am sympathetic to farmers who want to repair their equipment. There's a scale where you have enough free time that with simple enough equipment, it does make sense to repair it yourself.
>At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other
Being a business is the reason you want right to repairs. If a single vendor can bankrupt your business then it's not a sustainable business. Right to repair give you cheaper options for repairing your tools.
Being a business is the reason you want right to repairs. If a single vendor can bankrupt your business then it's not a sustainable business. Right to repair give you cheaper options for repairing your tools.
A lot of businesses live entirely within major tech company walled gardens, from the iOS App Store to the Azure Marketplace, where vendors have zero control over the platform. A precarious position to be in, perhaps, but hardly unsustainable.
Not just cheaper, any option. If the tech is busy because everyone is harvesting at the same time; your screwed.
This is correct and will probably only be broken from a crazy differentiating hardware offering (like a self-driving tractor). It's coming...
Fixing would mean hacking in this case.
No-one wants to sell hardware any longer, it's not as profitable as providing it on a subscription (dare we say "rent") and forcing all support, maintenance and additions to go through your channels as part of the subscription package.
Unfortunately this trend is everywhere now. It happened to servers, media, has started to happen to cars... but it's happened already to agricultural hardware.
Super profitable if you are the provider (especially with all the data one can yield from operating the hardware), super annoying and frustrating if you are the consumer.
Unfortunately this trend is everywhere now. It happened to servers, media, has started to happen to cars... but it's happened already to agricultural hardware.
Super profitable if you are the provider (especially with all the data one can yield from operating the hardware), super annoying and frustrating if you are the consumer.
> No-one wants to sell hardware any longer...
Then they should stop selling hardware and start renting it; but they don't do that, as that signals an honest intention to the customer and I'm pretty sure comes with a bunch of legal restrictions, both obvious and subtle. Instead, they want all the money and lack of liability that comes from selling something outright to someone else, and yet they still somehow want to maintain total control over the device in the field in order to extract revenue over time and, notably, spy on their customers. The result is that these technological locks that side-step the notion of ownership and turn every object you purchase into a sleeper agent for the manufacturer; and, as you note, no one wants to actually sell things anymore as it is going to be more profitable to build in all of these locks, so "voting with your dollars" has become all but impossible unless you either are willing to tolerate not only paying more (which is fine) but getting a shit product (as none of the good manufacturers even bother offering "own your hardware" as an option no matter how much you are willing to pay) or have so much money that you can build an entire company to commission custom hardware. :(
Then they should stop selling hardware and start renting it; but they don't do that, as that signals an honest intention to the customer and I'm pretty sure comes with a bunch of legal restrictions, both obvious and subtle. Instead, they want all the money and lack of liability that comes from selling something outright to someone else, and yet they still somehow want to maintain total control over the device in the field in order to extract revenue over time and, notably, spy on their customers. The result is that these technological locks that side-step the notion of ownership and turn every object you purchase into a sleeper agent for the manufacturer; and, as you note, no one wants to actually sell things anymore as it is going to be more profitable to build in all of these locks, so "voting with your dollars" has become all but impossible unless you either are willing to tolerate not only paying more (which is fine) but getting a shit product (as none of the good manufacturers even bother offering "own your hardware" as an option no matter how much you are willing to pay) or have so much money that you can build an entire company to commission custom hardware. :(
Some underlying fundamentals are known for quite a long time: "All in all, wealth consists more in use than in possession; for the actualization of the potentialities of such things and their use is wealth" -- Aristotle’s On Rhetoric
> "voting with your dollars" has become all but impossible
If possessing is more often than not the best way someone may understand it and also understand when smart farmers will also understand it, then develop an adequate offering, and if it performs better most will understand. It is only "more profitable to build in all of these locks" when you have customers. Am I delusional?
> "voting with your dollars" has become all but impossible
If possessing is more often than not the best way someone may understand it and also understand when smart farmers will also understand it, then develop an adequate offering, and if it performs better most will understand. It is only "more profitable to build in all of these locks" when you have customers. Am I delusional?
"Just say no." -Nancy Reagan
Done right, this could actually be better.
I own a lawn mower. In fact I usually own two lawn mowers--the new one and the one I just need to repair a bit.
All of my neighbors own lawn mowers. We all use our lawn mowers about an hour per week. It's extremely wasteful to purchase 5 lawn mowers to perform 5 hours of mowing per week.
We could all hire Suwanda down the street to mow our lawns, but that would cost a lot more than buying a mower. That's mostly because of the labor costs. So what if Suwanda just rented the mower to us and charged us enough to keep the blade sharp and the engine tuned? And what if we didn't pick it up and return it to Suwanda? What if we just passed it around between us, and Suwanda was the 6th stop in the rotation?
And every once in a while, the person who got it after Suwanda noticed it was a completely different mower. So 5-6 neighbors pay $5/month and always have a mower in tip-top shape, but never actually maintain it and never shop for a new one.
I own a lawn mower. In fact I usually own two lawn mowers--the new one and the one I just need to repair a bit.
All of my neighbors own lawn mowers. We all use our lawn mowers about an hour per week. It's extremely wasteful to purchase 5 lawn mowers to perform 5 hours of mowing per week.
We could all hire Suwanda down the street to mow our lawns, but that would cost a lot more than buying a mower. That's mostly because of the labor costs. So what if Suwanda just rented the mower to us and charged us enough to keep the blade sharp and the engine tuned? And what if we didn't pick it up and return it to Suwanda? What if we just passed it around between us, and Suwanda was the 6th stop in the rotation?
And every once in a while, the person who got it after Suwanda noticed it was a completely different mower. So 5-6 neighbors pay $5/month and always have a mower in tip-top shape, but never actually maintain it and never shop for a new one.
I thought about this a lot. What if we just share a lot of tools with our neighbors. It will prevent waste and free up space in your house. However, for me, it's more convenient to have my own tools. I have the freedom to mow the lawn whenever I want. Also on that sunny afternoon when all the other neighbors also want to mow their lawn. And I want a tool that's in the right condition. When I have time to do a job around the house, my tools should work. Not broken, dirty or missing a part. And I don't want a difficult conversation with my neighbor about it. Sharing and borrowing tools with my neighbors directly is fine for me. Co-owning or continuously renting together is not my cup-of-tea.
Absolutely. I completely agree with everything you said. But I still see the benefit in other models. And I wonder what innovation might occur if we spent more time exploring options.
Absolutely! I guess the main innovation will be social. Thinking of a way that people feel responsible for shared tools, a non-awkward way of selecting neighbors who you are willing to share with and some kind of emergency-button if you need a tool now and all the shared tools are taken.
This reminds me of how all the city e-scooters are treated. Those rented by people with apps are treated terribly and thrown around like trash by their operators. Those actually owned by people are treated very well. At it's core it's basically a strong argument in support of private property (at least in this instance).
I would love it if you could solve this sort of social issue, but I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of doing so. Successfully making people feel responsible for shared tools is almost equivalent to "building a better society". It's a worthy goal, but people have been trying to do so for basically all of human history.
I would love it if you could solve this sort of social issue, but I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of doing so. Successfully making people feel responsible for shared tools is almost equivalent to "building a better society". It's a worthy goal, but people have been trying to do so for basically all of human history.
So let's you and I spend an hour offline ironing this out so we can pitch HN for $20 million of seed money next week.
We'll start with mowers and expand into kitchen blenders and frying pans. We'll displace Amazon in about 15 years!
We'll start with mowers and expand into kitchen blenders and frying pans. We'll displace Amazon in about 15 years!
[deleted]
Tool lending libraries are great!
https://oaklandlibrary.org/locations/oakland-tool-lending-li...
https://oaklandlibrary.org/locations/oakland-tool-lending-li...
You could also have a community tool lending library where everyone can borrow from it.
https://oaklandlibrary.org/locations/oakland-tool-lending-li...
https://oaklandlibrary.org/locations/oakland-tool-lending-li...
You can rent equipment already from Home Depot or some "Rent-a-Center" place however they need to pay for their overhead so there is a hefty markup. But it makes sense for tools you use occasionally like a sod cutter or tiller.
Have you talked to your neighbors about sharing lawn mowers? Why does Suwanda need to be involved?
That's really because customers are demanding software now. They want auto steer, variable rate application, they want to mark their tile inlets or waterways on their fields before they upload into the tractor. They want their sprayer or planter to integrate and show them singulation and population or rates right there in the cab. Lots of famers are using iPads along with multiple in cab systems to manage all the technology and record additional data. I've see farmers planting with as many as 4 or 5 screens in their tractors and it's getting to where there's an aftermarket just for mounts to hold more screens and computers. Farmers aren't just accepting that, but they are buying additional systems that require more software all the time because at the end of the day, it's business.
I mean you vote with your dollar. Stop supporting these bad practices. I don't, it's a hull to get everyone to stop and force themselves to work around. Maybe it's a losing battle, but stop giving them money and we'll be better off. I would not purchase a product with an underlying subscription. I even go as far as getting older cars so I don't have to worry about it.
The flipside to this, is that there is perhaps no longer an incentive to sell hardware with a limited lifespan.
The opposite, surely.
If there's no market for old hardware, there's no benefit to making new products which hold their value.
If there's no market for old hardware, there's no benefit to making new products which hold their value.
When a company rents out equipment, the longer the equipment is usable, the more rent can be earned on it. So there is an incentive to have durable products when the income is on a subscription basis.
It could be even more profitable to do a subscription with a "swap your old one for a new one for a big discount" on a regular basis.
Nah. They'll sell you cheaply made crap for $80 along with a subscription for $10/mo then sell you slightly better cheaply made crap for $105 a year down the road and bump the sub to $12/mo for the 'increased functionality'.
Thats the point though isn't it, they dont sell it anymore.
So any gains in lifespan are reaped by the company, not consumer
So any gains in lifespan are reaped by the company, not consumer
Hopefully more durable products means less landfill and digging up the planet looking for more raw materials. This ultimately benefits everybody.
As long as there are competing suppliers (not colluding), they would compete to sell at lowest price.
Post Ownership society where MBA's have decided that it better to have high OPEX and no CAPEX .....
Higher TCO, lower ROI, but hey those quarterly reports look great...
Higher TCO, lower ROI, but hey those quarterly reports look great...
> it's not as profitable as providing it on a subscription (dare we say "rent")
Simple but excellent point. We should just start calling it what it is. xbox game pass, adobe software, it's all just renting. Subscriptions are supposed to be for access to new stuff, not continuing access to the existing stuff.
Simple but excellent point. We should just start calling it what it is. xbox game pass, adobe software, it's all just renting. Subscriptions are supposed to be for access to new stuff, not continuing access to the existing stuff.
diesel engine mechanic by trade here, and ive followed this topic with interest for about five years now. Its similar to large over-the-road trucks in that its ultimately manufacturers catering to large fleets instead of owner/operators.
most farms in America are corporate monoliths. "farmers" here want mttf, mtbf, metrics, and a projection of how many cam chains, PTO knuckles, lockout converters, etc... they will need to buy in 30 years of depreciable service for a machine. They want to be able to carve the machine they own down to the last cent...the only way to do that is to turn your IH or Komatsu into a rolling cloud. even the windshield wipers get a sensor.
smaller farms with actual farmers that wear hats and overalls already balk at a million dollar sticker shock from a harvester, and if you ever go to a farm and take a look around, most tractors there are nearly sixty years old. the priority is farming, not investor return. The tractor needs to perform its stated function first before anything else matters. service interval warnings and degraded performance alerts here are a failure condition the farmer works around. they arent incentivized to stop what theyre doing at 4:15 AM and call up the local JD dealer 143 miles away for an appointment. there isnt a second tractor.
If legislation isnt passed, ultimately youll end up with what commecial trucks got in response to sensor overkill: Gliders. gliders are 60 year old truck drivetrains and engines that get a new cab and body parts, and get recertified for the road. they belch smog and roar like a freight train at idle, but all thats grandfathered into EPA legislation. New manufacturers get to crank out fleet machines at high prices, and owner/operators get their old reliable filling the parking lot with NOx and waxy sulfur haze at 4 am. they become a market that manufacturers refuse to tap, because it cannot be fully exploited to the disadvantage of the operator.
most farms in America are corporate monoliths. "farmers" here want mttf, mtbf, metrics, and a projection of how many cam chains, PTO knuckles, lockout converters, etc... they will need to buy in 30 years of depreciable service for a machine. They want to be able to carve the machine they own down to the last cent...the only way to do that is to turn your IH or Komatsu into a rolling cloud. even the windshield wipers get a sensor.
smaller farms with actual farmers that wear hats and overalls already balk at a million dollar sticker shock from a harvester, and if you ever go to a farm and take a look around, most tractors there are nearly sixty years old. the priority is farming, not investor return. The tractor needs to perform its stated function first before anything else matters. service interval warnings and degraded performance alerts here are a failure condition the farmer works around. they arent incentivized to stop what theyre doing at 4:15 AM and call up the local JD dealer 143 miles away for an appointment. there isnt a second tractor.
If legislation isnt passed, ultimately youll end up with what commecial trucks got in response to sensor overkill: Gliders. gliders are 60 year old truck drivetrains and engines that get a new cab and body parts, and get recertified for the road. they belch smog and roar like a freight train at idle, but all thats grandfathered into EPA legislation. New manufacturers get to crank out fleet machines at high prices, and owner/operators get their old reliable filling the parking lot with NOx and waxy sulfur haze at 4 am. they become a market that manufacturers refuse to tap, because it cannot be fully exploited to the disadvantage of the operator.
> most tractors there are nearly sixty years old.
When I worked as a farmhand we were still using some 1950s Massey Ferguson tractors every day.
An it's one of the biggest dairy farms in the province (Canada).
I mean we had newer stuff too, but the old machines were kept chugging along. I remember opening a sideplate on a MF 135 after one of the kids jammed up the transmission.
We got it unstuck with a crowbar, and were up and running again in 15 minutes.
When I worked as a farmhand we were still using some 1950s Massey Ferguson tractors every day.
An it's one of the biggest dairy farms in the province (Canada).
I mean we had newer stuff too, but the old machines were kept chugging along. I remember opening a sideplate on a MF 135 after one of the kids jammed up the transmission.
We got it unstuck with a crowbar, and were up and running again in 15 minutes.
> gliders are 60 year old truck drivetrains and engines that get a new cab and body parts, and get recertified for the road.
I doubt any gliders are running 60yo engines unless you meant 60 year old engine technology. Most likely pre EPA 2006 to avoid the DPF and later EPA 2010 SCR systems. I'd guess the popular glider engines would be Cummins big cam's, CAT 3406's, and maybe S60 Detroits.
I doubt any gliders are running 60yo engines unless you meant 60 year old engine technology. Most likely pre EPA 2006 to avoid the DPF and later EPA 2010 SCR systems. I'd guess the popular glider engines would be Cummins big cam's, CAT 3406's, and maybe S60 Detroits.
> they become a market that manufacturers refuse to tap, because it cannot be fully exploited to the disadvantage of the operator.
Sounds like a market failure if there is money left on the table but no competitor who wants to grab it for themselves.
Sounds like a market failure if there is money left on the table but no competitor who wants to grab it for themselves.
I mean, if two of the biggest companies of the world, Apple and Tesla can get away with it, why not the rest of the markets?
This trend needs to stop. I cannot fathom how anyone thought preventing farmers, FARMERS for crying out loud, the people who grow our goddamn food, from repairing their equipment is way, way beyond me..
This trend needs to stop. I cannot fathom how anyone thought preventing farmers, FARMERS for crying out loud, the people who grow our goddamn food, from repairing their equipment is way, way beyond me..
The problem with modern large farmers is the same as with richer tesla owners... you buy a car/tractor with 5y warranty, you service it at a dealer (to keep your warranty), and after 5y, you trade it in for a new one. It's same as with most other devices like that.. even a mercedes... who cares about data/plans/parts/... for a 3yo mercedes? ..it's under warranty, so they'll deal with it. Same with phones... new phone has a warranty, sometimes even insurance
The problem becomes real when your tesla/tractor/mercedes/phone is 10yo (phone a bit less) and available for cheap on the second hand market... it's not under warranty anymore, financially it's not worth it to have a dealer fix it, if you can do it yourself, but you're unable to do so, because you don't have the schematics and/or parts available.
So, the large industrial farmers don't really care... it's the "little guys" who get fscked by companies like JD/tesla/apple,...
The problem becomes real when your tesla/tractor/mercedes/phone is 10yo (phone a bit less) and available for cheap on the second hand market... it's not under warranty anymore, financially it's not worth it to have a dealer fix it, if you can do it yourself, but you're unable to do so, because you don't have the schematics and/or parts available.
So, the large industrial farmers don't really care... it's the "little guys" who get fscked by companies like JD/tesla/apple,...
A lot of the new equipment is not even bought, but rather leased. The largest farms will keep rolling the leases into new equipment and then the used equipment is then put out on the used market for someone to buy. The first users do not have a whole lot of concern about legally of their ownership as their leases have them renting the equipment from the start.
The users down the line may have greater concern, but they are limited to what is available on the used market. If the first generation users choose John Deere, that means they are effectively limited to John Deere.
The users down the line may have greater concern, but they are limited to what is available on the used market. If the first generation users choose John Deere, that means they are effectively limited to John Deere.
Leasing and/or renting: Fine.
But making a monopoly on providing parts and services is not a good thing. People end up paying 2000 dollar for a 2 dollar repair.
Imagine the world when buying a new car/truck/tractor is less expensive than replacing the brakes for example. This is how the world works right now.
But making a monopoly on providing parts and services is not a good thing. People end up paying 2000 dollar for a 2 dollar repair.
Imagine the world when buying a new car/truck/tractor is less expensive than replacing the brakes for example. This is how the world works right now.
>People end up paying 2000 dollar for a 2 dollar repair.
That's the entire world economy. Have you watched Shark Tank? "What do you sell it for and what is your landed price." Mark is smiling and clapping at the people who manage to sell a $2 part for $100, the bigger the ripoff the more he loves it, they've achieved the American Dream.
The reality in the Apple/John Deer situation is that the profit is going back into overfunding design to also make better products. Not all of it, but enough to keep a persistent edge over competitors.
That's the entire world economy. Have you watched Shark Tank? "What do you sell it for and what is your landed price." Mark is smiling and clapping at the people who manage to sell a $2 part for $100, the bigger the ripoff the more he loves it, they've achieved the American Dream.
The reality in the Apple/John Deer situation is that the profit is going back into overfunding design to also make better products. Not all of it, but enough to keep a persistent edge over competitors.
Paying $2000 when you could pay $2 is how much of the economy operates but personally I think situations like that, often under the umbrella of “rent seeking behavior”, are actually harmful to society.
> The problem with modern large farmers is the same as with richer tesla owners... you buy a car/tractor with 5y warranty, you service it at a dealer (to keep your warranty), and after 5y, you trade it in for a new one.
I don't think that's how that works. My grandparents own and operate a very respectable size farm for being independent and they definitely do not trade in their tractors like that. I'd be skeptical that mega-farms do this too. Even with cars the majority of the market buys second-hand, which is why the few who buy new every 5 years have someone to sell to. Tractors are an order of magnitude more expensive and independents who might consider paying good money for second-hand equipment are vanishing quickly.
I don't think that's how that works. My grandparents own and operate a very respectable size farm for being independent and they definitely do not trade in their tractors like that. I'd be skeptical that mega-farms do this too. Even with cars the majority of the market buys second-hand, which is why the few who buy new every 5 years have someone to sell to. Tractors are an order of magnitude more expensive and independents who might consider paying good money for second-hand equipment are vanishing quickly.
The question is - why do farmers not buy Kubota tractors if they want something repairable?
The only explanation given in this thread seems to be ‘branding’.
The only explanation given in this thread seems to be ‘branding’.
Apple's not that bad really. Typed from an 8 year old Apple with replaced battery, ssd and keyboard.
They weren't so bad 8 years ago.
But can you have it replaced for cheap on a new model?
Nobody said that you can't pay Apple a big amount of money so they fix your stuff, the issue is that in newer devices it is getting harder to repair the devices using an independent service(not everyone has the money or lives near an Apple store).
Apple can just not fuck with this independent people, let them have access to the same repair documentation and parts their own people have access.
Apple can just not fuck with this independent people, let them have access to the same repair documentation and parts their own people have access.
Apple is actively disabling people to even change their battery. Same type of battery wont work in another same type macbook anymore..
Ah. That's bad.
Who replaced those parts for you and what sort of hell did they have to put up with to facilitate those repairs? And how viable are those same repairs for a modern MacBook in comparison?
Apple's goal (same with other manufacturers like JD) isn't to eradicate independent repair. They just want to make it economically in-viable so that third-party repair disappears and most consumers choose to buy new.
Apple's goal (same with other manufacturers like JD) isn't to eradicate independent repair. They just want to make it economically in-viable so that third-party repair disappears and most consumers choose to buy new.
Search Louis Rossman if you really believe that
Apple is the poster child for hostility to independent repair
Apple is the poster child for hostility to independent repair
People also want control over the information collected from their farming equipment and sent to headquarters. The machines collect information about exactly how much of which crops are planted and then at the end of the year it knows exactly the yield as it is being harvested. Knowing yields before anyone else is very valuable.
oh now that is interesting. And possibly the first real 'privacy' issue I have seen that has serious teeth.
Apple/Google and friends have just as much power. Seeing where people are shopping is the same thing -- I bet they had evidence of the decline of malls before anyone else, for instance.
My dad is also a farmer, and im impressed about the large range of knowlegde of all farmers, from nature to mechanic.
I think this problem is already for a long time, and there are many farmers that dont buy new tractors anymore for this reason, that they cannot repair the tractor anymore, and it can cost a lot of money because they cannot harvest, and are waiting for the tractor dealer.
But i think the same problem is for cars, you cannot e.g. repair your Tesla everywhere, this is also very closed.
But i think the same problem is for cars, you cannot e.g. repair your Tesla everywhere, this is also very closed.
>But i think the same problem is for cars, you cannot e.g. repair your Tesla everywhere, this is also very closed.
The repairment-strategy for Teslas in Germany seems to be pretty simple. You just buy a new one :-)
The repairment-strategy for Teslas in Germany seems to be pretty simple. You just buy a new one :-)
Making something that only you can repair can be quite a lucrative business. This documentary is quite interesting:
McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
Or maybe not. Extensive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774
Yeah, the non-sinister explanation is that mcdonalds decided to go with a self-cleaning machine to reduce the possibility of workers messing up the cleaning cycle, taylor implementing that badly, and no one else using self-clean machines.
McDonalds has very strong incentives to reduce labour costs to zero. This started with very clear & limited roles which meant cheap rates, but now means reducing the number of employees. At $5/hour it's cheaper to train and manage people to do the job; @ > $15/hr you can justify an army of machines and a few technicians, even if your ice cream machine seems to be broken a lot of the time.
If you poke at McD's corporate jobs in IT, you'll find a bunch of jobs in machine learning, audio processing and similar for an AI drive through project.
https://careers.mcdonalds.com/global-corporate/jobs?categori...
Many of the tech positions have been filled (from what they were a year ago)... though still more than a few.
https://careers.mcdonalds.com/global-corporate/jobs?categori...
Many of the tech positions have been filled (from what they were a year ago)... though still more than a few.
A similar thing is happening with EVs.
Many car dealers don't make their money from selling cars, they make most of their money from being the only authorized repair shop for said car model. And to keep the warranty valid, you need to service the car at an authorized shop.
EVs, by design, don't require as much maintenance or as often as ICE cars. This will result in a disruption in the existing chain at some point. We'll see what actually happens in 5-10 years.
Many car dealers don't make their money from selling cars, they make most of their money from being the only authorized repair shop for said car model. And to keep the warranty valid, you need to service the car at an authorized shop.
EVs, by design, don't require as much maintenance or as often as ICE cars. This will result in a disruption in the existing chain at some point. We'll see what actually happens in 5-10 years.
I keep hearing this thing about EVs not needing as much maintenance. Apparently nobody has looked at their maintenance schedule on their cars. Most cars don't need anything except a few oil changes by 100,000 miles. So many dealers throw in free oil changes now... and you can still have them done by Jiffy Lube if you want for about $50. People regularly hit 200k miles just doing oil changes, and changing out all the wear items that EV owners also have. If you can't afford the oil changes, you probably can't afford an EV either.
Brakes, coolant, tires, gearbox oils? Your EV still has all that. The power unit itself on an EV may be simpler, but mechanical failures in an engine in an ICE car are pretty damn rare. You're not servicing anything inside the engine, just like you're not taking apart the electric motor in your EV for maintenance.
Brakes, coolant, tires, gearbox oils? Your EV still has all that. The power unit itself on an EV may be simpler, but mechanical failures in an engine in an ICE car are pretty damn rare. You're not servicing anything inside the engine, just like you're not taking apart the electric motor in your EV for maintenance.
>Apparently nobody has looked at their maintenance schedule on their cars.
Pot, meet kettle. EVs and Plug-in Hybrids cost less to maintain than ICE vehicles. [1] Over 200k miles, ICE vehicles are about double the maintenance cost of EVs or Plug-in hybrids.
At 50k miles; EVs $600, Plug-in $1,050, ICE $1,400.
100k miles; EVs $2,000, Plug-ins $2,600, ICE $4,400.
200k miles; EVs $6,300, Plug-ins $5,900, ICE $12,300.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10/owning-an-electric-car-...
Pot, meet kettle. EVs and Plug-in Hybrids cost less to maintain than ICE vehicles. [1] Over 200k miles, ICE vehicles are about double the maintenance cost of EVs or Plug-in hybrids.
At 50k miles; EVs $600, Plug-in $1,050, ICE $1,400.
100k miles; EVs $2,000, Plug-ins $2,600, ICE $4,400.
200k miles; EVs $6,300, Plug-ins $5,900, ICE $12,300.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/10/owning-an-electric-car-...
200k miles? That's over 320000 km?! There's exactly zero chance a statistically significant number of combustion engines get that mileage with "a few oil changes".
I've owned cars with 200k km in them an I would describe them as "beaters" at best. I've had to replace clutches, radiators, turbos and god knows what else and they haven't even gotten close to the 300k km mark.
As for my EV, the first maintenance on schedule that isn't just replacing the air filter is at 160k km. I've saved hundreds if not thousands just from scheduled oil changes at that point.
I've owned cars with 200k km in them an I would describe them as "beaters" at best. I've had to replace clutches, radiators, turbos and god knows what else and they haven't even gotten close to the 300k km mark.
As for my EV, the first maintenance on schedule that isn't just replacing the air filter is at 160k km. I've saved hundreds if not thousands just from scheduled oil changes at that point.
> And to keep the warranty valid, you need to service the car at an authorized shop.
Magnusson-Moss repudiates this for US consumers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
Magnusson-Moss repudiates this for US consumers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
Yea, same for many EU countries.
Also EVs require some specific knowledge and equipment random Mom & Pop shops won't have for a while. Just working with HVDC systems alone is a huge hassle.
Also EVs require some specific knowledge and equipment random Mom & Pop shops won't have for a while. Just working with HVDC systems alone is a huge hassle.
Some dealers make bank on the service.
Some dealers are basically in the business of originating loans.
It all depends on how the owner happens to structure the business.
Often you'll have multiple dealers in the same network that take a different route because that's what works for their brand and location niches.
Some dealers are basically in the business of originating loans.
It all depends on how the owner happens to structure the business.
Often you'll have multiple dealers in the same network that take a different route because that's what works for their brand and location niches.
Batteries will need swapping (not often, but a high price), and there's the added bonus of being able to "encourage" people to come in for repairs by just tweaking some OTA updates. I wonder who will get caught doing that first.
Great conclusion. This video could have been summarized in 10 minutes though. For the most part, no real information about the problem was given. I guess this is just how YouTube documentaires in 2021 are.
Making something only you can repair lands you on my personal everlasting blacklist of shame (and I guess the everlasting blacklists of shame of others as well).
Just don't buy Apple, John Deere or similar products. There are better alternatives and you're getting yourself into a trap where seemingly only government can help you, just because you wanted to buy more prestigious goods.
This. When pressed, people end up admitting that the reason they buy these products is that they are better.
What they are missing is that they are only better because people buy them, thus funding the improvement of the next generation.
If you want open alternatives, buy them. If you want them to get better, campaign for others to buy them.
Trying to force companies whose business is based on closed products to do what you want, is not going to go well.
What they are missing is that they are only better because people buy them, thus funding the improvement of the next generation.
If you want open alternatives, buy them. If you want them to get better, campaign for others to buy them.
Trying to force companies whose business is based on closed products to do what you want, is not going to go well.
> Equipment manufacturers collect lots and lots of data about soil, weather, yields, and other factors, which they can then share with or sell to “affiliates and suppliers.”
So a company selling seeds (with a no-reselling clause in their contracts) could buy that information, make a good guess at a farmer's profit margin, and individually adjust their pricing to the maximum that each farmer would be willing to pay.
Yet another way in which big players can abuse information asymmetry.
So a company selling seeds (with a no-reselling clause in their contracts) could buy that information, make a good guess at a farmer's profit margin, and individually adjust their pricing to the maximum that each farmer would be willing to pay.
Yet another way in which big players can abuse information asymmetry.
> Yet another way in which big players can abuse information asymmetry.
Solution here is to not allow for the asymmetry. So much of society’s ills are caused by incentives to keep information asymmetric, so that market participants cannot make optimal (to all) informed decisions.
Solution here is to not allow for the asymmetry. So much of society’s ills are caused by incentives to keep information asymmetric, so that market participants cannot make optimal (to all) informed decisions.
Perhaps put those farmers in touch with diabetics who would like some affordable insulin, or researchers who would like to consult publicly funded, peer-reviewed-on-their-own-time, research.
Background: grew up in farming communities, live in a farming community, almost everyone around us farms.
Repairable tractors would be a huge boon. I wish to anyone listening that Deere, New Holland, Valtra, Fendt and co would produce properly repairable, open heavy hardware.
Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.
There's a reason you see old Defenders, Fourtraks, Rangers, Hiluxes and their ilk around so much on farms. They're mechanically simple, which means you can repair them and keep them going basically indefinitely. Compare that to a modern Deere 7 series for example, and whilst the Deere is more capable, if something goes wrong, you're basically screwed. I've no problem with the hardware getting more advanced, but that same maintainability needs to be baked in.
The problem is, no-one seems interested in shaking things up there, and the manufacturers aren't in any hurry to change. They're a conservative bunch who don't need to, and for whom it's directly more profitable to make machines which can't be repaired by anyone other than themselves and people they authorise.
Repairable tractors would be a huge boon. I wish to anyone listening that Deere, New Holland, Valtra, Fendt and co would produce properly repairable, open heavy hardware.
Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.
There's a reason you see old Defenders, Fourtraks, Rangers, Hiluxes and their ilk around so much on farms. They're mechanically simple, which means you can repair them and keep them going basically indefinitely. Compare that to a modern Deere 7 series for example, and whilst the Deere is more capable, if something goes wrong, you're basically screwed. I've no problem with the hardware getting more advanced, but that same maintainability needs to be baked in.
The problem is, no-one seems interested in shaking things up there, and the manufacturers aren't in any hurry to change. They're a conservative bunch who don't need to, and for whom it's directly more profitable to make machines which can't be repaired by anyone other than themselves and people they authorise.
Probably a naive question, but arent new Kubota tractors more repairable than say, a John Deere? Or are they just as bad?
It's a sliding scale. There's better and worse, but no-one's making open software systems which are generally available to be evaluated, updated and fixed, and the hardware side isn't much better.
Sure, a Kubota, Belarus, or JCB is better than a Massey or John Deere, but none are as good as they should be.
Sure, a Kubota, Belarus, or JCB is better than a Massey or John Deere, but none are as good as they should be.
They aren't comparable in technology (lots of farmers want GPS, auto steer, etc) and they definitely don't compete on size and power. Kubota tops out around 200 horsepower and Deere offers tractors up into the 600+ range.
What about Mahindra tractors, they are pretty big in India and they sell in US as well.
They're not even vaguely comparable in terms of utility. I may be wrong, but I think their most powerful unit comes in at mid 70'shp, with a max of ~300Nm torque. Compare that to a midrange JCB Fastrac like a 4190, which has north of 200hp and what, 950Nm? The newer ones are approaching 1500Nm, and a John Deere 9 series can get you up beyond 600hp and getting on for 3kNm of torque?
It's just not in the same league. They're very much light duty tractors.
It's just not in the same league. They're very much light duty tractors.
Old tractors are bringing top dollar at auctions (and have been for some time now). IMO, the same thing will happen with old cars/trucks some day. Now, they are mostly hobby cars for collectors and auto enthusiasts, but some day will be widely sought after due to more people wanting/needing to repair them.
Late 80s and early 90s Toyotas will be sold at a premium as will any/all old Ford F-150 trucks.
Late 80s and early 90s Toyotas will be sold at a premium as will any/all old Ford F-150 trucks.
In the year 2121, the Toyota Hilux will still be the go-to choice for aspiring warlords. The difference is that they may have competition from Americans who want a repairable vehicle.
By that yardstick, Thailand will be the richest country on earth in terms of value of cars owned because I have never seen a higher concentration of HiLux cars anywhere else in the world.
They are not transferable to a new owner after 40 years here by law. If is older the tractor can't be sold, and if sold privately couldn't pass the vehicle inspection test later (that must be passed each six months, if I'm not wrong).
Things can be different in your country.
The main promoters of this idea are the independent diagnostic car machines makers. For the brand is a lot of risk and possible bad publicity.
For the farmer the results can vary. Messing with its electronics could turn the tractor into a pile of garbage. Allowing the owner to mess with safety systems will typically lead to somebody realizing that can delay the repair for some months just inactivating the warning lights. People do the same all the time with car airbags. As farmers typically earn money after the harvest, they could be working for many months with a fake sense of safety. And as people love to brag, this could became quickly a popular option and a big mess
Things can be different in your country.
The main promoters of this idea are the independent diagnostic car machines makers. For the brand is a lot of risk and possible bad publicity.
For the farmer the results can vary. Messing with its electronics could turn the tractor into a pile of garbage. Allowing the owner to mess with safety systems will typically lead to somebody realizing that can delay the repair for some months just inactivating the warning lights. People do the same all the time with car airbags. As farmers typically earn money after the harvest, they could be working for many months with a fake sense of safety. And as people love to brag, this could became quickly a popular option and a big mess
Farmers do not want to pay for anything. My dealings with people in the farming community is that completely devalue everything around as a négociation tactic. They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything. In general, I don't work for or with them anymore because of the horrible way I have been treated by them. (bit generalised, but I spend 10 years working in the community)
JD is moving to a Tractor as a Service model. JD does not want to open up their systems because before not long, you just hire a robotic service to come and plow or harvest your fields. JD sees this coming and wants to be in the best possible position to market its services to land owners.
JD is moving to a Tractor as a Service model. JD does not want to open up their systems because before not long, you just hire a robotic service to come and plow or harvest your fields. JD sees this coming and wants to be in the best possible position to market its services to land owners.
> JD sees this coming and wants to be in the best possible position to market its services to land owners.
You may be right, but, if so, this is just another move by a massive corporation to create a vertical monopoly, and extract all the rent in the space. For at least a couple of decades, companies with massive fleets of tractors sweep through the country, working farm fields for the owners, as the seasons change across the states. Your statement makes it seem as if JD could be muscling in on this already-muscled market. Tractors have already been priced out of a lot of farmer's businesses. They may as well cut out these middlemen.
You may be right, but, if so, this is just another move by a massive corporation to create a vertical monopoly, and extract all the rent in the space. For at least a couple of decades, companies with massive fleets of tractors sweep through the country, working farm fields for the owners, as the seasons change across the states. Your statement makes it seem as if JD could be muscling in on this already-muscled market. Tractors have already been priced out of a lot of farmer's businesses. They may as well cut out these middlemen.
Yes, I think so. I believe it is Cat and Rio Tinto have some form of arrangement at one of RT's mines in Aus. The dump trucks are driverless and run from RT's HQ elsewhere.
Cutting out intermediataries is what cloud computing is all about. I don't really see this as any different.
Cutting out intermediataries is what cloud computing is all about. I don't really see this as any different.
> JD is moving to a Tractor as a Service model.
Part of the problem here is that in any other sort of <blank>-as-a-service model, you'd be paying MUCH less for the "service" than the <blank>. In this case, you're buying the capital equipment, and then being forced to buy a service contract in order to use it as expected, and keep it running. It'd be like buying an iPhone, needing to rent iCloud storage to make it convenient, not being able to service it (in any meaningful way), and then only being able to run apps from the App Store. Oh, wait. It's the same problem, with the same ethical and moral conundrum. In our society, a lot of us have accepted this deal for a $1,000 phone. However, it's a bit different when you're shelling out upwards of half a million for a modern tractor.
Part of the problem here is that in any other sort of <blank>-as-a-service model, you'd be paying MUCH less for the "service" than the <blank>. In this case, you're buying the capital equipment, and then being forced to buy a service contract in order to use it as expected, and keep it running. It'd be like buying an iPhone, needing to rent iCloud storage to make it convenient, not being able to service it (in any meaningful way), and then only being able to run apps from the App Store. Oh, wait. It's the same problem, with the same ethical and moral conundrum. In our society, a lot of us have accepted this deal for a $1,000 phone. However, it's a bit different when you're shelling out upwards of half a million for a modern tractor.
> They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything.
Farmers are also being squeezed by their customers - prices for farm produce have been steadily falling for over a century, see e.g. [0].
JD's commercial model requires both capital outlay in purchasing equipment, and committing to a maintenance contract that the farmer can't influence. So the farmer loses control of maintenance costs whilst also under pricing pressure for their produce.
I can't speak to your experience obviously, but farming for many is a (very) low margin business.
[0]: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery...
Farmers are also being squeezed by their customers - prices for farm produce have been steadily falling for over a century, see e.g. [0].
JD's commercial model requires both capital outlay in purchasing equipment, and committing to a maintenance contract that the farmer can't influence. So the farmer loses control of maintenance costs whilst also under pricing pressure for their produce.
I can't speak to your experience obviously, but farming for many is a (very) low margin business.
[0]: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery...
Yeah, I get that. But also, there is no end in the claim of how hard the Range Rover driving, fee (private) school paying, huge farm house owning farmers in the UK have it.
The vitriol that was extended by a couple of the associates (middle managers) to one of my programmers who was vegan was absolutely amazing. He just would ask if there was any dairy in something a they would go off on him. Around that time I also stopped having dairy for health reasons, but that was okay. I had previously been sympathetic to farmers and the dairy community, but after that, I was appalled. Farmers are getting what they deserve.
The vitriol that was extended by a couple of the associates (middle managers) to one of my programmers who was vegan was absolutely amazing. He just would ask if there was any dairy in something a they would go off on him. Around that time I also stopped having dairy for health reasons, but that was okay. I had previously been sympathetic to farmers and the dairy community, but after that, I was appalled. Farmers are getting what they deserve.
That chart doesn't mean it's a low margin business. The manhours needed to produce a bushel/pound/acre of X has plummeted over the past 100 years.
> They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything.
Who wants to pay more than they have to? I usually want to pay even less than I have to.
Who wants to pay more than they have to? I usually want to pay even less than I have to.
There is a difference between dehumanising people and making them feel worthless and negotiating in good faith, and then reneging on agreements.
Most people don’t want to pay more than they have to for things. This phenomenon often intensifies when talking about major inputs to their business.
> Farmers do not want to pay for anything. [...] They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything.
Who wants to pay more than they have to for anything? Who wants to pay for anything at all? How does a desire to save money make farmers different from the rest of us?
> JD is moving to a Tractor as a Service model. JD does not want to open up their systems because before not long, you just hire a robotic service to come and plow or harvest your fields. JD sees this coming and wants to be in the best possible position to market its services to land owners.
If JD wants to sell their equipment as a service, there's nothing stopping them from doing just that. But it sounds more to me like they want to retain the rights they would have in a service model while continuing to charge the prices they do for a product model. They cannot just sell their tractors as a product and treat them like a service when it's convenient.
Who wants to pay more than they have to for anything? Who wants to pay for anything at all? How does a desire to save money make farmers different from the rest of us?
> JD is moving to a Tractor as a Service model. JD does not want to open up their systems because before not long, you just hire a robotic service to come and plow or harvest your fields. JD sees this coming and wants to be in the best possible position to market its services to land owners.
If JD wants to sell their equipment as a service, there's nothing stopping them from doing just that. But it sounds more to me like they want to retain the rights they would have in a service model while continuing to charge the prices they do for a product model. They cannot just sell their tractors as a product and treat them like a service when it's convenient.
>>They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything
So let me ask you, when you take your car in for service and the mechanic says "that will be $100", do you say "no no I can afford $150 so that is what I am going to pay"?
it seems odd to me that you believe only farmers do not want to pay "more than they have to for anything", I am pretty sure that applies to all persons, and all businesses
So let me ask you, when you take your car in for service and the mechanic says "that will be $100", do you say "no no I can afford $150 so that is what I am going to pay"?
it seems odd to me that you believe only farmers do not want to pay "more than they have to for anything", I am pretty sure that applies to all persons, and all businesses
No, but if I take my car to two mechanics and one quotes me $100 and the other $150, then I might very well go for the one quoting me $150 for many different reasons.
> A few decades ago, any given farmer often had the skills and tools needed to quickly make repairs if their machinery broke down. These days, however, it’s not so straightforward. Most modern farm equipment is technologically advanced, containing computers and sensors that collect and transmit data. As a result, specific software tools are typically necessary to address mechanical failures and other issues.
> However, most companies refuse to make those tools available to farmers, making it exceptionally difficult to fix broken machinery on their own. They can’t even go an independent mechanic, since manufacturers won’t sell them parts or diagnostic tools either. This leaves farmers essentially no choice but to take their broken equipment to a licensed dealership.
> This isn’t cheap. A farmer might spend thousands of dollars on a simple adjustment they could have done themselves with the appropriate resources. On the other hand, this arrangement has proven wildly lucrative for manufacturers; for Deere, as an example, parts and repairs are up to six times more profitable than selling the equipment itself.
This is a part of a larger pattern. Our current underlying system "keeps many practical alternatives sequestered behind private firewalls or unfunded if they cannot generate adequate profits". The current system enables "an exaggerated set of intellectual property monopolies – for copyrights, trademarks and patents – [which] restrain the sharing of scientific, social and economic innovations. Hence the system discourages human cooperation, excludes many people from benefiting from innovation and slows the collective learning of humanity" [1].
Imagine today's high-tech world, without the capitalist intellectual property system. It will allow many more people to become skilled and able. I think we will look back at this phase of human civilization in horror; IP systems are an excessive way of dominating people and stifling their growth.
[1] http://wealthofthecommons.org/essay/peer-peer-economy-and-ne...
> However, most companies refuse to make those tools available to farmers, making it exceptionally difficult to fix broken machinery on their own. They can’t even go an independent mechanic, since manufacturers won’t sell them parts or diagnostic tools either. This leaves farmers essentially no choice but to take their broken equipment to a licensed dealership.
> This isn’t cheap. A farmer might spend thousands of dollars on a simple adjustment they could have done themselves with the appropriate resources. On the other hand, this arrangement has proven wildly lucrative for manufacturers; for Deere, as an example, parts and repairs are up to six times more profitable than selling the equipment itself.
This is a part of a larger pattern. Our current underlying system "keeps many practical alternatives sequestered behind private firewalls or unfunded if they cannot generate adequate profits". The current system enables "an exaggerated set of intellectual property monopolies – for copyrights, trademarks and patents – [which] restrain the sharing of scientific, social and economic innovations. Hence the system discourages human cooperation, excludes many people from benefiting from innovation and slows the collective learning of humanity" [1].
Imagine today's high-tech world, without the capitalist intellectual property system. It will allow many more people to become skilled and able. I think we will look back at this phase of human civilization in horror; IP systems are an excessive way of dominating people and stifling their growth.
[1] http://wealthofthecommons.org/essay/peer-peer-economy-and-ne...
Are the technological advancements in tractors really worth it? Does anyone have any stats on this? I imagine tractors two decades ago did the job about the same. Is adding a whole bunch of chips to something for a very minor increase in efficiency worth losing the ability to repair it easily.
If it is anything like cars, then I would think the technology increases chance of failure and actually just increases the cost of doing business; especially when they have to wait to do simple things.
Cars 40 years ago did just fine getting from A to B, had air conditioning, radio, and worked reliably. Cars now are finicky, spy on you, and very expensive to repair. It makes me wonder if we would just be better off with not flooding everything with chips. Does connecting your car to your phone really improve your life? I don't think it would improve mine. If anything, I'm trying to connect my phone to _less_ things than I used to because it just steals my attention from things that really matter.
If it is anything like cars, then I would think the technology increases chance of failure and actually just increases the cost of doing business; especially when they have to wait to do simple things.
Cars 40 years ago did just fine getting from A to B, had air conditioning, radio, and worked reliably. Cars now are finicky, spy on you, and very expensive to repair. It makes me wonder if we would just be better off with not flooding everything with chips. Does connecting your car to your phone really improve your life? I don't think it would improve mine. If anything, I'm trying to connect my phone to _less_ things than I used to because it just steals my attention from things that really matter.
Tractors and farming in general have dramatically changed throughout the last 20 years or so.
They've become much bigger in size (and thereby more efficient), they're mostly self-driving once in the field and control now the whole operation very precisely down to centimeter accuracy e.g. for fertilizer application.
> Does anyone have any stats on this?
Yes, every farmer in the US who is serious (that is no small hobby farmers). If the GPS is broken they won't bring the planter out in the field. Technology allows them to put exactly the right amount of seed in the ground at the right place. They saves thousands of dollars every year just by not planting too much. Then get tens of thousands more every year because the right amount of seeds results in more yield (profit) than either too much (plants have to fight each other for sun) or too little (bare ground doesn't produce a harvest).
Farmers are still figuring out to turn other data into profit, but they are learning that some soils just never will yield well no matter how much fertilizer they put on so they don't waste money on them, while others with a little extra fertilizer will yield more. The computer lets them easily adjust fertilizer levels for each small section of land.
Yes, every farmer in the US who is serious (that is no small hobby farmers). If the GPS is broken they won't bring the planter out in the field. Technology allows them to put exactly the right amount of seed in the ground at the right place. They saves thousands of dollars every year just by not planting too much. Then get tens of thousands more every year because the right amount of seeds results in more yield (profit) than either too much (plants have to fight each other for sun) or too little (bare ground doesn't produce a harvest).
Farmers are still figuring out to turn other data into profit, but they are learning that some soils just never will yield well no matter how much fertilizer they put on so they don't waste money on them, while others with a little extra fertilizer will yield more. The computer lets them easily adjust fertilizer levels for each small section of land.
In fact, the pattern is that people don't want to spend a lot of money upfront and companies like sustained income.
So given the choice between a $50k tractor which cannot be repaired unless you pay a lot of money and an easy to repair $100k tractor, both farmers and manufacturers will chose the first option. Of course, farmers want an easy to repair $50k tractor, but manufacturers have to make money. And manufacturers want to sell $100k expensive-to-maintain tractors, but competition won't let them.
The system we have now, with all its flaws, is one that suits people the most. We can make laws when the free market doesn't work, for example, we could make $50k unmaintainable tractors illegal, which I think would be great, but it will piss off farmers who will need to pay $100k for their tractors and it will piss off manufacturers who will lose their steady income.
> Imagine today's high-tech world, without the capitalist intellectual property system.
No need to imagine, we have China, and before that, we had USSR. Not perfect examples, especially for China, but these are the real world alternatives to capitalism.
So given the choice between a $50k tractor which cannot be repaired unless you pay a lot of money and an easy to repair $100k tractor, both farmers and manufacturers will chose the first option. Of course, farmers want an easy to repair $50k tractor, but manufacturers have to make money. And manufacturers want to sell $100k expensive-to-maintain tractors, but competition won't let them.
The system we have now, with all its flaws, is one that suits people the most. We can make laws when the free market doesn't work, for example, we could make $50k unmaintainable tractors illegal, which I think would be great, but it will piss off farmers who will need to pay $100k for their tractors and it will piss off manufacturers who will lose their steady income.
> Imagine today's high-tech world, without the capitalist intellectual property system.
No need to imagine, we have China, and before that, we had USSR. Not perfect examples, especially for China, but these are the real world alternatives to capitalism.
It isn't about maintenance itself, it's limiting that maintenance to the manufacturer only artificially where it could be done by anyone.
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have any kind of sympathy for a manufacturer who wants to offer a worse product for more money. Especially when that directly translates to higher food costs for everyone.
I'm not saying communism is the answer, but a free market where your choices are a crappy "cheap" product or an acceptable product for twice the price isn't something to be proud of. Oh, the market will solve the problem. Well this is what the market has produced, so that means this is the best possible option. It's like some kind of religion. If this is what the market has decided, then it must be the best thing and we have no right to question it.
I'm not saying communism is the answer, but a free market where your choices are a crappy "cheap" product or an acceptable product for twice the price isn't something to be proud of. Oh, the market will solve the problem. Well this is what the market has produced, so that means this is the best possible option. It's like some kind of religion. If this is what the market has decided, then it must be the best thing and we have no right to question it.
By the option that suits people the most, I didn't mean "best".
The free market is actually a science, and the "invisible hand of the market" is formalized by game theory. And it often result in optimal solutions, but not always. The prisoner's dilemma is the best-known counter-example. There is mathematical proof that a free market is not perfect, but currently, in practice and when supplemented by relatively light regulation, that's the best we have.
As for the choice, you can't have good and cheap, it is not about being proud of something, it is just how things are. Legislation can just remove the choice. For example, you are not allowed to buy a car so cheap that it is going to kill you and the environment, which is a good thing. But because of that, you are forced to pay "twice the price", you just don't notice it because the cheap option is simply not available.
The free market is actually a science, and the "invisible hand of the market" is formalized by game theory. And it often result in optimal solutions, but not always. The prisoner's dilemma is the best-known counter-example. There is mathematical proof that a free market is not perfect, but currently, in practice and when supplemented by relatively light regulation, that's the best we have.
As for the choice, you can't have good and cheap, it is not about being proud of something, it is just how things are. Legislation can just remove the choice. For example, you are not allowed to buy a car so cheap that it is going to kill you and the environment, which is a good thing. But because of that, you are forced to pay "twice the price", you just don't notice it because the cheap option is simply not available.
Your example was a $50k tractor that you couldn't work on or a $100k tractor you could fix yourself. To me that means that by buying the $100k tractor, you're giving them an extra $50k to make up for the money they would otherwise make off repairs. It's whether it's reasonable for a company to sell you a product and then expect any loss in profits to be made up at a later date with maintenance. Almost like a loss leader.
You continue to argue that because this is what the market has come up with, there is no better way to do it. You can absolutely, as suggested in the article, make it illegal to make it either illegal to do your own repairs or impossible without purchasing certain software or licenses. But because the market hasn't decided that and it's a form of regulation, then it must not be a good solution. I'm sure there are plenty of unintended consequences to legislation like this, but the consequence of no regulation is a situation where you can't repair your own equipment and the dealership can charge however much they want for the repairs, as you have no recourse.
You continue to argue that because this is what the market has come up with, there is no better way to do it. You can absolutely, as suggested in the article, make it illegal to make it either illegal to do your own repairs or impossible without purchasing certain software or licenses. But because the market hasn't decided that and it's a form of regulation, then it must not be a good solution. I'm sure there are plenty of unintended consequences to legislation like this, but the consequence of no regulation is a situation where you can't repair your own equipment and the dealership can charge however much they want for the repairs, as you have no recourse.
> I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have any kind of sympathy for a manufacturer who wants to offer a worse product for more money.
Apple.
Apple.
The DRM in these tractors doesn't really depend on any IP laws.
There's probably some restriction on reverse engineering it, but for a relatively low volume market with difficult to manufacture hardware parts, there's not going to be all that much interest in overcoming DRM even if there weren't laws.
There's probably some restriction on reverse engineering it, but for a relatively low volume market with difficult to manufacture hardware parts, there's not going to be all that much interest in overcoming DRM even if there weren't laws.
DMCA. Breaking even the shittiest DRM is illegal. This of course kills incentives to break DRM from the commercial side as nobody can make any money off it without getting sued. Otherwise I imagine some 3rd party part manufacturer would attempt it.
Even if it weren't illegal, we are rapidly entering an era where it won't be practical anyway: I work directly on these issues--participating in the DMCA exemption process every cycle and serving as a witness during the hearings--and the whole process just feels kind of dumb knowing that "sure, so let's say it is legal to jailbreak your tractor: they still have to make a mistake in a world where bootloaders are becoming increasingly reliable" :(.
The DMCA is the least of your worries. The EPA has figured out that the only only reason people actually want to update software on their tractors is to turn off emissions controls.
Emission control suit of requirements (both hardware & software) make these tractors failure more likely. Eg. from a youtube farmer in Sask, Ca., his NH tractor wiring harness failed because highly corrosive DEF was puked all over it. Wiring hardness is only needed to fine tune injection pump & the pletora of sensors because of regulations, and DEF is only needed because of regulations.
All of this decrease the useful lifetime of equipment.
And no, all of this is not required, a trucked was able to pass California regulations with an old pre-EPA-regulations diesel engine, but the tolerances are a lot tighter (ie. forget about that chinesium oil pump with a couple thousands too much shaft end play), maintenance is a lot trickier...
All of this decrease the useful lifetime of equipment.
And no, all of this is not required, a trucked was able to pass California regulations with an old pre-EPA-regulations diesel engine, but the tolerances are a lot tighter (ie. forget about that chinesium oil pump with a couple thousands too much shaft end play), maintenance is a lot trickier...
Reminds me of when Honda designed and installed CVCC cylinder heads on a Chevy 350, and were able to get those engines to pass the 70s emissions standards without a catalytic converter. Instead the EPA ruled that all cars must have a catalytic converter, even if you could figure out other ways to pass emissions. Must have taken a lot of pressure off of the US automakers at the time when smarter, smaller imports were starting to gain popularity.
Manufacturers of higher-powered diesel tractors have had to introduce features to allow for regen cycles to be postponed, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all
noteworthy facts: regen is only required because of EPA regulations.
I like this line of thinking, but I don't like the grand theory aspects of it.
Terms like "current political economy." Explaining everything, from poverty to environmental degradation, as a product of psycho-societal ideas like the "false idea of material abundance." It might work as a method of criticism, but I don't think it works the other way. We need to discover and develop new ways, and that doesn't tend to work from highly broad, abstract understandings down to the practical level.
I agree with most of the major touchpoints, but I think it could be written better.^ To hazard an inexact term, this needs to be far less ideological.
Take this paragraph:
We believe that new forms of cooperative and distributed property will emerge along these lines, a trend explained by Matt Cropp in his article, “The Coming Micro-Ownership Revolution.”6 Cropp’s article explains the direct link between P2P-driven declines in transaction costs and the shift to more distributed forms of ownership. The new corporate forms will no longer be based on shareholder-based ownership, but on common capital stock, held by the commoners themselves. These new entities constitute the “third commons” of “created materiality,” i.e., humankind’s productive machinery (in other words, capital), which joins the first two commons, the inherited material commons of nature and created “immaterial” cultural commons. The new forms of distributed individual property, which can be freely aggregated into collectives, emulate the free aggregation...
The author believes this because its a highly legible, direct application of the ideas and analysis. It has the disadvantage of being both limiting, and nonspecific. Hard to use as a formula, and easy to use for rejection.
I'm totally on board with OSS/Linux & Wikimedia as existence proofs. I would also add the WWW. OSS and its ecosystems are a rich set of smaller examples. I think lichess makes a great example, somewhat similar to wikimedia. Note that Jimmy Wales is more of a capitalist/libertarian, in his ideals. He would (I assume) be totally off put by this article's take. Thibault Duplessis, Lichess' founder, describes himself as a french communist. CVince Serf is just a dude. TimBL is more of a moderate pragmatist. Good look finding a take on "contemporary capitalism" that appeals to all three.
Why carry all this unnecessary baggage.
^More practical, convincing to the unconvinced, more room to graft on other ideas, less combative, less offensive to pre-xistsing political identities....
Terms like "current political economy." Explaining everything, from poverty to environmental degradation, as a product of psycho-societal ideas like the "false idea of material abundance." It might work as a method of criticism, but I don't think it works the other way. We need to discover and develop new ways, and that doesn't tend to work from highly broad, abstract understandings down to the practical level.
I agree with most of the major touchpoints, but I think it could be written better.^ To hazard an inexact term, this needs to be far less ideological.
Take this paragraph:
We believe that new forms of cooperative and distributed property will emerge along these lines, a trend explained by Matt Cropp in his article, “The Coming Micro-Ownership Revolution.”6 Cropp’s article explains the direct link between P2P-driven declines in transaction costs and the shift to more distributed forms of ownership. The new corporate forms will no longer be based on shareholder-based ownership, but on common capital stock, held by the commoners themselves. These new entities constitute the “third commons” of “created materiality,” i.e., humankind’s productive machinery (in other words, capital), which joins the first two commons, the inherited material commons of nature and created “immaterial” cultural commons. The new forms of distributed individual property, which can be freely aggregated into collectives, emulate the free aggregation...
The author believes this because its a highly legible, direct application of the ideas and analysis. It has the disadvantage of being both limiting, and nonspecific. Hard to use as a formula, and easy to use for rejection.
I'm totally on board with OSS/Linux & Wikimedia as existence proofs. I would also add the WWW. OSS and its ecosystems are a rich set of smaller examples. I think lichess makes a great example, somewhat similar to wikimedia. Note that Jimmy Wales is more of a capitalist/libertarian, in his ideals. He would (I assume) be totally off put by this article's take. Thibault Duplessis, Lichess' founder, describes himself as a french communist. CVince Serf is just a dude. TimBL is more of a moderate pragmatist. Good look finding a take on "contemporary capitalism" that appeals to all three.
Why carry all this unnecessary baggage.
^More practical, convincing to the unconvinced, more room to graft on other ideas, less combative, less offensive to pre-xistsing political identities....
On the other hand the incentive for people to innovate and make it accessible to anyone is often money. The criticism of capitalism is warranted, however the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation.
This rethoric has been proven false in the software development ecosystem.
Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community.
> the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation
For me this is as much a myth as the good old "the wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor"
Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community.
> the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation
For me this is as much a myth as the good old "the wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor"
> This rethoric has been proven false in the software development ecosystem.
Citation needed.
I like open source software, but let's just say often you don't want OSS community to design an interface or maintain it.
Inkscape is on one hand a great tool, on the other hand, it just bogs down doing routine things like zoom or rotate canvas.
Citation needed.
I like open source software, but let's just say often you don't want OSS community to design an interface or maintain it.
Inkscape is on one hand a great tool, on the other hand, it just bogs down doing routine things like zoom or rotate canvas.
There's nothing anti-free market about Open Source.
Except copyleft, the GNU project, and all other viral licenses
Since those are purely voluntary, they are not against free market principles.
Anyone can (and has) form a commune in the US, too. There's nothing to stop you.
Anyone can (and has) form a commune in the US, too. There's nothing to stop you.
Not only is it a myth but also incredibly arrogant, as if the ten thousand years of advancements and innovation by humanity since the dawn of civilisation prior to the development of capitalism in Italian city states never happened.
The hockey stick innovation curve started at the time of the industrial revolution, thanks to free markets.
Or it could have also been due to the whole having access to orders of magnitude more mechanical power on tap, assembly line production allowing for rapid prototyping, and industrialisation of agriculture leading to a population boom.
Which happened in free market countries, not unfree ones.
P.S. the assembly line (invented in a free market country) is not about rapid prototyping. Prototypes are not built on an assembly line.
P.S. the assembly line (invented in a free market country) is not about rapid prototyping. Prototypes are not built on an assembly line.
Russia and China or do those not count?
Russia and China did not industrialize until well over a century later. Or are you saying Russia and China build prototypes on an assembly line? I'll need a reference for that!
Tell me what system without the capitalist IP system actually innovated faster/better. I only find a lot of failed attempts.
Maybe monetary incentives are important for innovation. And I don't think it's perfect at all, but abolishing it also seems a bit rich.
> Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community.
What does that proof? You can't pretend that this would work universally.
Maybe monetary incentives are important for innovation. And I don't think it's perfect at all, but abolishing it also seems a bit rich.
> Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community.
What does that proof? You can't pretend that this would work universally.
Most of the interesting innovations happen on publicly funded research. Whether it’s your RNA vaccine https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-d... or your phones touch screen, or your siri voice assistant or your uber gps taxi
> Most of the interesting innovations happen on publicly funded research
Excluding airplanes, jet engines, rockets, transistors, git, etc.
Excluding airplanes, jet engines, rockets, transistors, git, etc.
Rockets were publicly funded research. A lot of airplane research was publicly funded.
Goddard was not publicly funded.
The Langley prototype fell into the Potomac like a sack of wet cement, and cost 20 times in government funding what the Wrights spent on their entire R+D program. Langley clearly had not solved any of the problems necessary for controlled, powered flight.
The Langley prototype fell into the Potomac like a sack of wet cement, and cost 20 times in government funding what the Wrights spent on their entire R+D program. Langley clearly had not solved any of the problems necessary for controlled, powered flight.
I don't find the article anymore, but I read that this is the reason why US farmers were buying Belorussian tractors
http://belarus-tractor.com/en/company/news/2016/rare-soviet-...
http://belarus-tractor.com/en/company/news/2016/rare-soviet-...
Not sure if anybody has mentioned this regarding open source hardware, they are really doing a great job repairing on their own
1. https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page
2. https://youtu.be/hl7lZZP21c8 | Open Building Institute - Introductory Video
3. https://www.youtube.com/user/marcinose/playlists | Marcin Jakubowski
4. https://youtu.be/S63Cy64p2lQ | Civilization starter kit | Marcin Jakubowski | TEDxKC
1. https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page
2. https://youtu.be/hl7lZZP21c8 | Open Building Institute - Introductory Video
3. https://www.youtube.com/user/marcinose/playlists | Marcin Jakubowski
4. https://youtu.be/S63Cy64p2lQ | Civilization starter kit | Marcin Jakubowski | TEDxKC
This kind of anti-consumer lock in seems to be the natural course of things when more and more stuff runs software which the buyer has no control over. I don't think we can fight this with consumer decisions only, it is just too profitable to shakedown consumers like this.
I agree, and the software additions are mostly useless (lasers, GPS etc...).
The primary reason the software is there is for vendor lock-in and rent seeking.
The primary reason the software is there is for vendor lock-in and rent seeking.
I wonder why JD does not make a large simple tractor that is mostly mechanical and hydraulic using standard/common parts and sell them at a higher price? They could advertise them to be owner repairable to justify the higher price. It seems there is a demand.
That would be a proof of concept that their current practices aren't justified, not only from a marketing standpoint but probably also from a legal standpoint.
The problem isn't providing replacement parts. I think the issue is that locking their customers in their maintenance services is part of their business model.
Most likely the lifetime of service (decades) wouldn't easily be fitted into the margin of a specific model.
The problem isn't providing replacement parts. I think the issue is that locking their customers in their maintenance services is part of their business model.
Most likely the lifetime of service (decades) wouldn't easily be fitted into the margin of a specific model.
In a properly-functioning market, it seems as though this would be an opportunity for a competitor. You have to wonder why this isn't happening.
If a competitor figures out how to build a tractor that is as good as the ones from John Deere then they probably can compete with John Deere directly--as in, "on their terms" with a locked down tractor that makes them more margin--rather than bother to sell unlocked tractors. The same issue happens with cell phones: users want control over their phones, but they also want good phones with good screens and good cameras. There are, in fact, phones you can buy that give you complete control, but they are the companies that have shit products and so are trying to use this as a differentiator to draw in a new market. If you are able to compete with the iPhone--like Samsung can, but almost no other manufacturer can (sometimes Google manages to pull it off with first party phones, but very few people buy those, so they are clearly missing something)--then you build a device as equally locked down as the iPhone and compete with it "on Apple's terms" as there is a nearly bottomless well of money that you can extract from users if you are willing to screw them and force them to participate in your closed ecosystem.
Essentially, you can't just look at the one product in isolation and think "this should exist from a competitor", as if anyone could easily make a company to go out and do it... you instead have to consider the ecosystem of companies and the numerous barriers to entry (such as patents and limited supply lines and the enormous R&D costs) and what the incentives in the market are, and it turns out that, if your product is one where the competition is already scarce--Apple + Samsung make up 80% of the mobile phone market, with the rest likely targeting people who don't have enough money to pay for high-end phones; there is a similar thing going on with tractors, with five companies controlling >70% of the market, and AFAIK mostly now selling locked down machines--you can't just expect to magically find a competitor pop up that is going to fill this particular interest. If you manage to circumnavigate all of the hurdles to build a phone that works as well as an Apple or a Samsung device, you are almost certainly going to join the oligopoly and lock your device down also, as the incentives are just too poor otherwise. The only fix for this is regulation and, to the extent to which regulation actually already exists here, legal precedent.
Essentially, you can't just look at the one product in isolation and think "this should exist from a competitor", as if anyone could easily make a company to go out and do it... you instead have to consider the ecosystem of companies and the numerous barriers to entry (such as patents and limited supply lines and the enormous R&D costs) and what the incentives in the market are, and it turns out that, if your product is one where the competition is already scarce--Apple + Samsung make up 80% of the mobile phone market, with the rest likely targeting people who don't have enough money to pay for high-end phones; there is a similar thing going on with tractors, with five companies controlling >70% of the market, and AFAIK mostly now selling locked down machines--you can't just expect to magically find a competitor pop up that is going to fill this particular interest. If you manage to circumnavigate all of the hurdles to build a phone that works as well as an Apple or a Samsung device, you are almost certainly going to join the oligopoly and lock your device down also, as the incentives are just too poor otherwise. The only fix for this is regulation and, to the extent to which regulation actually already exists here, legal precedent.
Largely EPA regulations make this impossible.
I’m a fan of right to repair, but I think it’s odd to include privacy / data breech concerns as an advocacy point. Operationalizing right to repair typically means making software more interoperable and sharing access information with third parties, which probably isn’t great for privacy / data security. This was the main tack that auto companies took when fighting a recent MA ballot initiative (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Massachusetts_Question_...), and there could be at least some truth to it.
Adding to the list of people who grew up on a ranch...
Growing up in the 80s and 90s, we had a bunch of old farm equipment, some from like the 1930s-era. Mostly a lot of stuff from the 60s and 70s.
And like every bit of equipment on the place had special operation rules.
"Don't run that tractor past 5k RPMs" or "Don't use the PTO Shaft (Power Take Off, the gear in the back that hooks in to power towed equipment) from Tractor A with Equipment Item B since it'll blow out." "Remember Tractor J is Brand X, but it has an engine from Brand Z, and a PTO shaft from Brand Y..."
Point being, like every piece of equipment was rigged together with duct tape. It's horrible unsafe. When you buy used equipment, nothing comes written down... like you try it, break it, and duct tape it all back together again.
Parts from Brand Y in Engine X -- because that's what the implement had in stock when you needed to repair something. Lots of home-welds, lots of splice jobs. Need a new hose? Grab one off a car... it's not rated for the tractor, but it sort of fits... and it lets you get the job done today... so cool, "works" and then likely just forget about it until it breaks.
So how on earth could John Deere be liable for the performance or safety of their equipment? If a John Deere tractor blows up, or more aptly some part suffers catastrophic failure and hurts someone... who's at fault? Does John Deere have to honor a 10-year warranty, if you cut corners on the repairs?
And, in the case of accidents, even if it's the farmer who is at, the brand suffers from the news report, "A farmer father of 7 was killed today when his John Deere tractor malfunctioned..." Left out of the story is the fact that the farmer didn't repair it to spec, or the guy the farmer bought it from didn't repair it to spec...
Anyway I side with John Deere here. It's chaos not to lock this stuff down. Who owns liability? These things are used hard, they break frequently -- especially with age. How to you know something actually works right if you don't lock down the repair process?
Growing up in the 80s and 90s, we had a bunch of old farm equipment, some from like the 1930s-era. Mostly a lot of stuff from the 60s and 70s.
And like every bit of equipment on the place had special operation rules.
"Don't run that tractor past 5k RPMs" or "Don't use the PTO Shaft (Power Take Off, the gear in the back that hooks in to power towed equipment) from Tractor A with Equipment Item B since it'll blow out." "Remember Tractor J is Brand X, but it has an engine from Brand Z, and a PTO shaft from Brand Y..."
Point being, like every piece of equipment was rigged together with duct tape. It's horrible unsafe. When you buy used equipment, nothing comes written down... like you try it, break it, and duct tape it all back together again.
Parts from Brand Y in Engine X -- because that's what the implement had in stock when you needed to repair something. Lots of home-welds, lots of splice jobs. Need a new hose? Grab one off a car... it's not rated for the tractor, but it sort of fits... and it lets you get the job done today... so cool, "works" and then likely just forget about it until it breaks.
So how on earth could John Deere be liable for the performance or safety of their equipment? If a John Deere tractor blows up, or more aptly some part suffers catastrophic failure and hurts someone... who's at fault? Does John Deere have to honor a 10-year warranty, if you cut corners on the repairs?
And, in the case of accidents, even if it's the farmer who is at, the brand suffers from the news report, "A farmer father of 7 was killed today when his John Deere tractor malfunctioned..." Left out of the story is the fact that the farmer didn't repair it to spec, or the guy the farmer bought it from didn't repair it to spec...
Anyway I side with John Deere here. It's chaos not to lock this stuff down. Who owns liability? These things are used hard, they break frequently -- especially with age. How to you know something actually works right if you don't lock down the repair process?
> So how on earth could John Deere be liable for the performance or safety of their equipment? If a John Deere tractor blows up, or more aptly some part suffers catastrophic failure and hurts someone... who's at fault? Does John Deere have to honor a 10-year warranty, if you cut corners on the repairs?
This gets to a very interesting question when it comes to industrial equipment (which farm equipment falls under). Unless there is *VERY CLEAR* instructions not to do it, and the manufacturer made an effort to prevent it, the manufacturer is nearly always liable. (slide 14 https://www.slideserve.com/butch/product-liability-law-in-th... and also note slide 54 with respect to the liability - the video presentation of this slide deck is at https://youtu.be/NdN577BbnSY )
Additionally. as you noted, the news that {Brand} equipment broke and killed someone travels much faster and does more impact than the later findings that {Brand} was not at fault because the owner had removed the safety equipment from it.
This gets to a very interesting question when it comes to industrial equipment (which farm equipment falls under). Unless there is *VERY CLEAR* instructions not to do it, and the manufacturer made an effort to prevent it, the manufacturer is nearly always liable. (slide 14 https://www.slideserve.com/butch/product-liability-law-in-th... and also note slide 54 with respect to the liability - the video presentation of this slide deck is at https://youtu.be/NdN577BbnSY )
Additionally. as you noted, the news that {Brand} equipment broke and killed someone travels much faster and does more impact than the later findings that {Brand} was not at fault because the owner had removed the safety equipment from it.
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing!
If John Deere were being honest they wouldn't sell tractors, but lease them with the cost of repair built into the yearly fee. If "parts and repairs are up to six times more profitable than selling the equipment itself" eventually they will ruin their brand and people will purchase other brands.
That approach might work... if they were leased the same way that airplane engines are - by hours running. ( https://www.rrpf-leasing.com/home )
If you lease it with a calendar time instead, it would make it uneconomical for either JD (in the case of multiple farms sharing the same equipment and logging #x times more hours on the equipment) or for smaller operators (where JD prices it for the 'its running 7 days a week' when its only running 1 day a week).
It would also be necessary to make sure that there's no way to circumvent that running time clock on the devices with 3rd party software.
If you lease it with a calendar time instead, it would make it uneconomical for either JD (in the case of multiple farms sharing the same equipment and logging #x times more hours on the equipment) or for smaller operators (where JD prices it for the 'its running 7 days a week' when its only running 1 day a week).
It would also be necessary to make sure that there's no way to circumvent that running time clock on the devices with 3rd party software.
I have the feeling someone will become very rich by buying up all the old used diesel trucks in the world and keeping them going when EVs take over the world in 4 years.
Good luck running a electric tractor rig moving 120,000lb (modern quad-track are ~60,000lb, plus the drill, plus the fert/seed cart) all day long...
[deleted]
Not just farmers and tractors eh?
Perhaps we should push beyond merely protecting the right to repair, but figuring out how to incentivize standardization and open protocols.
Perhaps we should push beyond merely protecting the right to repair, but figuring out how to incentivize standardization and open protocols.
we got to this point building almost entirely on incentivized standards and open protocols. It's only in the past ~20 years that we've started to replay the telephone company cycle that required the intervention and kicked off the greatest innovation anyone alive has ever seen. I'm not confident that the same governments are prepared to do this again with the current crop of "to big to fail" effective monopolies, which could mean a sea change in global competition.
In the end market should take of this. If repairability is a major concern for the farmers they would just eventually buy the tractors with less of a high-tech bells and whistles. And also cheaper I guess.
Pleasse stop rehashing free market platitudes without any thinking.
Look at the actual manufacturers, realise that noone is producing simple tractors any more, where are they going to come from?
Look at the actual manufacturers, realise that noone is producing simple tractors any more, where are they going to come from?
Belarus produces simple and cheap tractors since forever, they are popular in Russia and other CIS countries. Just import them.
I dont think "just import them" covers the difficulties a lone farmer would have in transport, customs, language barrier and maintenance of a fairly random piece of equipment across an ocean that is also critical for their primary source of income.
And imagine you have a warranty dispute or similar
And imagine you have a warranty dispute or similar
An old Belarus 420A is a simple tractor. Even a modern 742 or 1220 isn't that complex. But it's simply not as capable as a Fastrac 4 or 8 series, or a Valtra N or C series, or a Deere 6, 7 or 8 series for example. They're just not in the same league in terms of what they can do with tool management, fitness for specific tasks or tool interop.
As a single example, there's nothing that Belarus make that I'd want to use for buckraking a heap of any real size. They don't have a JCB 435S equivalent, or a heavier Fendt or Claas.
They're great tools, but you're not going to get the hectares per hour of sowing or harvest or the movement of tonnage of the modern competitors.
As a single example, there's nothing that Belarus make that I'd want to use for buckraking a heap of any real size. They don't have a JCB 435S equivalent, or a heavier Fendt or Claas.
They're great tools, but you're not going to get the hectares per hour of sowing or harvest or the movement of tonnage of the modern competitors.
But isn't this self-defeating reasoning? on one side you say things need to be simpler to repair, on the other you say simple technology doesn't cover your needs. A lot of these advanced features are so complex and so intertwined to each other that you really want only a qualified person to be able to "try to fix it"
The whole complexity narrative is false pretenses.
The new tractors contain computers and need tools. Manufacturers refuse to sell tools and placed equivalent of DRM on computers to stop you repairing your tractor on purpose. They make their supplirs sign contracts where the supplier is not allowed to sell parts to anyone else. None of these issues are due to complexity, all of them about you loose property rights over your possessions and turning physical goods into a subscribtion model
The new tractors contain computers and need tools. Manufacturers refuse to sell tools and placed equivalent of DRM on computers to stop you repairing your tractor on purpose. They make their supplirs sign contracts where the supplier is not allowed to sell parts to anyone else. None of these issues are due to complexity, all of them about you loose property rights over your possessions and turning physical goods into a subscribtion model
Should there not be the option to break whatever you own however you want to? People who know they can fix X should be allowed to fix X
You surely are allowed to break it if you want at the cost of loosing the waranty. If you mean you want to be able to break it and still have the waranty then no.
Please stop attribute anything confronting your believes to lack of thinking. And if you are not aware of something that does not mean it does not exist (look for Belarus tractor references it the thread below). Even if they did not exist there is nothing (or should be nothing) stopping one from being created.
So farmers would buy in mass simple tractors, making the manufacturer that does it alone rich amasing a huge segment of the market.
But no manufacturer wants to do it. And no venture capital wants to finance such thing. Because.. I guess.. these evil capitalists just don't want to make more money.
Is that the argument? That capitalists don't want to make more money?
But no manufacturer wants to do it. And no venture capital wants to finance such thing. Because.. I guess.. these evil capitalists just don't want to make more money.
Is that the argument? That capitalists don't want to make more money?
From another comment: "Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be."
So no, the argument isn't that they don't want to make money. The argument is that they do, and realize that tacitly colluding will make them more money than undercutting each-other.
So no, the argument isn't that they don't want to make money. The argument is that they do, and realize that tacitly colluding will make them more money than undercutting each-other.
Most of the time it's not possible to produce new equipment without patent licenses even if everything else came into places. Assuming a new honest player that won't collude...
[deleted]
It should, but will it? The magically all-mighty market does not fix all problems without intervention
It probably won't. But that does not dismiss that it should :).
This is an oversimplification that overlooks at automotive engineering history (if not history in general). Are there 2T engines or Wankel engines available for people to choose?
Heavy regulation of the automotive industry is why I can't buy a new Dodge Coronet.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't live in a farming community...
Can you expand on how this would come to be, in practice?
Well, it's not that hard to imagine, is it? Someone founds a company that produces tractors but they are simpler, cheaper and can be repaired. If that's what customers want, they _will_ gain market share. If not, then the demand isn't there.
Then the next argument would be that John Deere is destroying competition by artificially selling their tractors below cost, making it impossible to compete with them.
Because yeah, that's what you do when you recoup the rest of the cost in the subscription/maintenance.
It's the same model that game consoles use to keep the hardware costs low. They make it up in the game and peripheral licensing fees.
If JD dropped the subscriptions, but instead charged full price for the tractors, people would just scream about the prices instead.
I actually agree that farmers should legally be able to repair their own tractors, or have anyone else do it. But gaining that "right" back wouldn't actually fix their complaints, just shift them.
Because yeah, that's what you do when you recoup the rest of the cost in the subscription/maintenance.
It's the same model that game consoles use to keep the hardware costs low. They make it up in the game and peripheral licensing fees.
If JD dropped the subscriptions, but instead charged full price for the tractors, people would just scream about the prices instead.
I actually agree that farmers should legally be able to repair their own tractors, or have anyone else do it. But gaining that "right" back wouldn't actually fix their complaints, just shift them.
...and of course, there will be zero patents infringed that would cause no injunction.
There is a lot of misinformation about this. At face value, articles like this imply you're not able or allowed to fix mechanical issues, how dare they!
What they don't mention is that manufacturers protect their electronic gear i.e. the consoles inside the machine that use GPS to run a field, adjust the attachment acccording to various sensors etc. This is very sophisticated stuff, and farmers need and want this functionality.
Farmers aren't wanting their old 1950s-era tractors back. They want more control over the software -- and in particular don't want to pay for it. And while as an open source type myself I'm sympathetic to this, I'm suspicious about the outright bullshit in articles like this.
What they don't mention is that manufacturers protect their electronic gear i.e. the consoles inside the machine that use GPS to run a field, adjust the attachment acccording to various sensors etc. This is very sophisticated stuff, and farmers need and want this functionality.
Farmers aren't wanting their old 1950s-era tractors back. They want more control over the software -- and in particular don't want to pay for it. And while as an open source type myself I'm sympathetic to this, I'm suspicious about the outright bullshit in articles like this.
> in particular don't want to pay for it
This is a complete misunderstanding of the problem, also, a false statement in most cases.
People would like to have the option to choose who, when, where and how repairs their stuff. If the only option is the manufacturer - even after the warranty period -, then that's called a monopoly and is guaranteed to result in lower standards and higher prices and reduced availability.
It is one thing to have such a problem with a laptop or a mobile, because those are relatively cheap items that are easy to replace. But if you have equipment that your livelihood depends on worth tens of thousands of dollars, then this is completely unacceptable.
This is a complete misunderstanding of the problem, also, a false statement in most cases.
People would like to have the option to choose who, when, where and how repairs their stuff. If the only option is the manufacturer - even after the warranty period -, then that's called a monopoly and is guaranteed to result in lower standards and higher prices and reduced availability.
It is one thing to have such a problem with a laptop or a mobile, because those are relatively cheap items that are easy to replace. But if you have equipment that your livelihood depends on worth tens of thousands of dollars, then this is completely unacceptable.
In addition you may be effectively refused such repairs, or charged so much that it is better to buy a new product.
If the only entity who can repair the kit is the one who sells new kit too, this is even worse than a standard monopoly argument. At least a normal monopoly has an incentive to serve you at the end of the day.
If the only entity who can repair the kit is the one who sells new kit too, this is even worse than a standard monopoly argument. At least a normal monopoly has an incentive to serve you at the end of the day.
It's not called a monopoly. A monopoly is a single provider of a particular service or product allowing the supplier to abuse their position.
These farmers do not have to buy John Deere. If they don't like being tied in, they shouldn't have bought the equipment in the first place and chosen a rival then one of two things happen 1) John Deere realise they have been caught with their pants down and change their policy to win customers back 2) Farmers realise there is a new normal where the equipment is simply too complicated to allow them to tinker with it (or at least without losing any manufacturers guarantee).
These farmers do not have to buy John Deere. If they don't like being tied in, they shouldn't have bought the equipment in the first place and chosen a rival then one of two things happen 1) John Deere realise they have been caught with their pants down and change their policy to win customers back 2) Farmers realise there is a new normal where the equipment is simply too complicated to allow them to tinker with it (or at least without losing any manufacturers guarantee).
It’s a monopoly on fixing JD gear, a narrower term than an outright farming hardware monopoly but still.
They want to be able to make adjustments, and fix mechanical issues without the whole thing shutting down and then having to take it to the one place in town that is allowed to touch the thing.
It’s one thing to say oh only the new stuff is locked down, but every part of the vehicle is, something that wasn’t the case a short while ago. In fact they’re digitizing controls and simple mechanical functionality that doesnt need to be digitized so they can abuse their maintenance monopoly.
It’s one thing to say oh only the new stuff is locked down, but every part of the vehicle is, something that wasn’t the case a short while ago. In fact they’re digitizing controls and simple mechanical functionality that doesnt need to be digitized so they can abuse their maintenance monopoly.
I bet the number one feature most of these farmers want is the ability to defeat emissions controls so they don't have to use DEF (diesel exhaust fluid).
Don't believe me? Go watch some farmers on Youtube and it won't take long to pick up the hatred for government interference. I don't know if it's selection or survivorship bias or what, but farmers really do not like being told what to do by someone else.
Don't believe me? Go watch some farmers on Youtube and it won't take long to pick up the hatred for government interference. I don't know if it's selection or survivorship bias or what, but farmers really do not like being told what to do by someone else.
> This is very sophisticated stuff
So what? A PC is very sophisticated as well but no matter which parts I put together, it works. You can abstract the sophisticated stuff away.. This is just a bad excuse IMHO
So what? A PC is very sophisticated as well but no matter which parts I put together, it works. You can abstract the sophisticated stuff away.. This is just a bad excuse IMHO
Yes, I agree, and this is IMHO a better way out of the conundrum these farmers face: install their own electronics with similar functionality.
I love the way every article about businesses making decisions that favor business concerns over customer concerns always have this balanced comment that says "What they don't mention is that the business has optimised for their own interests and ranked other concerns as a hindrance".
Yes, we know decisions aren't free. But it's not a coincidence that businesses are all simultaneously optimising in their own self interest and ignore the concrens of their customers.
Yes, we know decisions aren't free. But it's not a coincidence that businesses are all simultaneously optimising in their own self interest and ignore the concrens of their customers.
One concern I also never see discussed is that for any type of electro-mechanical system, allowing the customer to change anything or maintain anything is a actually a big liability issue.
Let's be clear, it is pretty obvious that the whole tractor-as-a-service paradigm is extremely profitable. However allowing access to diagnostics/config/firmware for anything that controls heavy machinery can be a huge liability.
You are a misconfiguration away from a work accident with injury or death.
Let's be clear, it is pretty obvious that the whole tractor-as-a-service paradigm is extremely profitable. However allowing access to diagnostics/config/firmware for anything that controls heavy machinery can be a huge liability.
You are a misconfiguration away from a work accident with injury or death.
There is a century of case law from the motor vehicle world that make this a non-issue.
The reason that happens with road vehicles is because you actually have diagnostics standard ISO 22901, which enforces at least partially interoperability.
Actual config/ROM changes are still heavily protected by manufacturers and are limited to authorized dealers.
Actual config/ROM changes are still heavily protected by manufacturers and are limited to authorized dealers.
People have all kinds of tuners that they throw in their cars. And you never hear about a manufacturer being sued into oblivion because someone threw a garbage tuner with garbage settings into their car.
As a simple counter example you can't tune Front Radar calibration for AEB (Automatic Emergency Breaking).
A manufacturer can obviously do it. However, if that was allowed in the field, you would likely have whiplash injuries at best or fatalities at worse.
My point is some things are 'open' in some popular vehicles for which people have reverse engineered stuff.
But there is no liability interest from manufacturers in having this sort of thing in user space.
A manufacturer can obviously do it. However, if that was allowed in the field, you would likely have whiplash injuries at best or fatalities at worse.
My point is some things are 'open' in some popular vehicles for which people have reverse engineered stuff.
But there is no liability interest from manufacturers in having this sort of thing in user space.
Is there a legal reason why they can't sign a waiver? You are always a misstep away from injury or death working on any heavy equipment. That has always been the case.
I would not trust the legal power of a waiver between two non governmental entities. When the public opinion wants someone to pay, the government will go after whoever can pay.
I would want a clear law that prevents the company from being liable.
I would want a clear law that prevents the company from being liable.
>I would not trust the legal power of a waiver between two non governmental entities
So you don't trust the courts to enforce a contract? That's basically what a liability waver is, a bog standard contract that amends a prior (often implied by legal convention or state law) contract between the manufacturer and the product owner.
>When the public opinion wants someone to pay, the government will go after whoever can pay
FYI making one or both entities "governmental" doesn't do anything to change this.
So you don't trust the courts to enforce a contract? That's basically what a liability waver is, a bog standard contract that amends a prior (often implied by legal convention or state law) contract between the manufacturer and the product owner.
>When the public opinion wants someone to pay, the government will go after whoever can pay
FYI making one or both entities "governmental" doesn't do anything to change this.
The effectiveness of a liability waiver is heavily dependent on the state it is being litigated in, as well as the precise wording of the contract and opinions of the people in the courts.
https://recmanagement.com/feature_print.php?fid=200611GC03
> FYI making one or both entities "governmental" doesn't do anything to change this.
I do not know what this means, but my point is that if one of the parties in the dispute is politically disliked, then they may not get a fair shake.
In the context of this discussion, I can see “not having to deal with risks of liability waivers” as a supporting reason for why a company would want to lock down their devices or prevent people from tinkering with them. Then they can simply tell anyone coming after them that their product was clearly not meant to be tampered with and so tampering with it removed them from any liability.
https://recmanagement.com/feature_print.php?fid=200611GC03
> FYI making one or both entities "governmental" doesn't do anything to change this.
I do not know what this means, but my point is that if one of the parties in the dispute is politically disliked, then they may not get a fair shake.
In the context of this discussion, I can see “not having to deal with risks of liability waivers” as a supporting reason for why a company would want to lock down their devices or prevent people from tinkering with them. Then they can simply tell anyone coming after them that their product was clearly not meant to be tampered with and so tampering with it removed them from any liability.
I've tried to make pleas with some of my old friends who've complained about the locked-down nature of their JD equipment, explaining that other companies like Kubota don't have that same limitation, but the branding is just too strong ("the Kubota might be cheaper to buy, and cheaper to run, and I can easily maintain it myself, but, it's not a John Deere" - actual quote from a SW Ontario farmer)