Pitch doctoring should be the biggest scandal in sports(si.com)
si.com
Pitch doctoring should be the biggest scandal in sports
https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/04/sticky-stuff-is-the-new-steroids-daily-cover
192 comments
> So the threat of enforcement does seem to be having an impact, at least in the short term.
This is how the US solved the hijacking problem in the 1970s; threat to do occasional random searches of passengers. Apparently airport security reported finding abandoned firearms outside in the bushes whenever they put up the “passengers may be searched” signs.
This is how the US solved the hijacking problem in the 1970s; threat to do occasional random searches of passengers. Apparently airport security reported finding abandoned firearms outside in the bushes whenever they put up the “passengers may be searched” signs.
Why would a hijacker abandon weapons? If their goal was hijacking and they found they were to be searched then why even board the plane? Just go back home with your weapon.
I think you might be overestimating the amount of planning that went into 1970s hijackings. One person hijacked a plane with nothing more than a can of bug spray and a lighter. Another was an ex-Green Beret who came to believe that he was at the center of a CIA plot to Assassinate Castro alone. For the most part, hijackings in the 1970s are best described as "clown shoes shit".
Hijacking was different in those days. It was often a means of political protest or transportation.
Another thing to consider is non-hijackers carrying guns for their own reasons. It was fairly common for business travelers to carry a lot of cash, and carry a gun while doing so.
Another thing to consider is non-hijackers carrying guns for their own reasons. It was fairly common for business travelers to carry a lot of cash, and carry a gun while doing so.
> Hijacking was different in those days. It was often a means of political protest or transportation.
Indeed, that was one of the major shocks (and changes brought by) 9/11: before that in the case of highjacking you wanted to remain calm because you were at relatively little risk of harm, in the early 70s highjacking were a weekly occurrence and treated as inconvenience. Jacking gradually went down through the 80s as security screenings were added.
The danger was in bombings and there was not much you could do as a passenger.
Indeed, that was one of the major shocks (and changes brought by) 9/11: before that in the case of highjacking you wanted to remain calm because you were at relatively little risk of harm, in the early 70s highjacking were a weekly occurrence and treated as inconvenience. Jacking gradually went down through the 80s as security screenings were added.
The danger was in bombings and there was not much you could do as a passenger.
Yeah pitchers in general seem to have lost command of the ball, based on the Indians games I've been watching lately. Shane Bieber (AL 2020 Cy Young winner) gave up an uncharacteristically high number of hits today. I've seen pitchers on both teams throw balls several feet above the strike zone. Austin Hedges got hit in the head while at bat the other day.
I assume we'll see a big drop in performance for the time being and a gradual increase in performance as pitchers relearn muscle memory for throwing balls without sticky stuff.
I assume we'll see a big drop in performance for the time being and a gradual increase in performance as pitchers relearn muscle memory for throwing balls without sticky stuff.
Shane Bieber is now out with a shoulder strain, so that may explain most of his uncharacteristic performance. I still stand by my general observations though.
> He publicly denounced use of “sticky stuff” in 2017 and 2018 and tweeted about how much more rpm his pitches would get when he experimented with it. When nothing came of this his spin rate increased dramatically and he won the Cy Young award in 2020.
I kind of feel for the guy. He tried to do the right thing and shine a spotlight on this issue. No one cared, no one did anything. So now he's got a 9-figure 3-year deal instead.
In his shoes, I'd spend a lot of effort collecting evidence that his coaches and managers are fully aware of what he's doing.
I kind of feel for the guy. He tried to do the right thing and shine a spotlight on this issue. No one cared, no one did anything. So now he's got a 9-figure 3-year deal instead.
In his shoes, I'd spend a lot of effort collecting evidence that his coaches and managers are fully aware of what he's doing.
I actually find the NFL race-norming more scandalous https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31554110/nfl-halt-race-n... but I suppose that is a scandal 'about' sports, whereas pitch doctoring is 'in' sports.
Thank you for sharing that article, I hadn't seen it. Terrible!
I posted it to HN 6 days ago but no uptake, just reposted it if anyone wants to discuss https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503168
Everything about that story is scandalous. Besides the obvious racial bias against black athletes, there also this:
> More than 2,000 NFL retirees have filed dementia claims, but fewer than 600 have received awards, according to the most recent report.
How does this compare with the general population? This seems like a crazy amount of dementia. Add the instances of CTE and it really seems like maybe we should just let football die off.
> More than 2,000 NFL retirees have filed dementia claims, but fewer than 600 have received awards, according to the most recent report.
How does this compare with the general population? This seems like a crazy amount of dementia. Add the instances of CTE and it really seems like maybe we should just let football die off.
A friend of mine who works data science for one of the MLB teams was talking to me about this.
Apparently enforcement is quietly coming down the pipeline. They're not doing enforcement out of nowhere because everyone knows that everyone is doing it, and it'd lead to the league enforcing against all teams simultaneously, which ultimately would be bad for the league itself to have at the very least none of it's star pitchers for some time period.
Enforcement is coming though apparently and you'll be able to see it in the stats pretty clearly in hindsight.
I don't agree with all MLB's descions, but at least in this case they're quietly optimizing for better games as best as they can given their massive bureaucracy which is what you want out of them.
Apparently enforcement is quietly coming down the pipeline. They're not doing enforcement out of nowhere because everyone knows that everyone is doing it, and it'd lead to the league enforcing against all teams simultaneously, which ultimately would be bad for the league itself to have at the very least none of it's star pitchers for some time period.
Enforcement is coming though apparently and you'll be able to see it in the stats pretty clearly in hindsight.
I don't agree with all MLB's descions, but at least in this case they're quietly optimizing for better games as best as they can given their massive bureaucracy which is what you want out of them.
> it'd lead to the league enforcing against all teams simultaneously, which ultimately would be bad for the league itself to have at the very least none of it's star pitchers for some time period
I don't get this idea. Is it better to watch the best players cheating than watch great-but-not-best players in general?
I don't get this idea. Is it better to watch the best players cheating than watch great-but-not-best players in general?
Better for the organization, not for us.
Well, in a lot of sports a decent portion of spectators are there for the celebrity, best-in-the-world players.
Usain Bolt has more name recognition than Yohan Blake, even though they're both world-class sprinters.
Usain Bolt has more name recognition than Yohan Blake, even though they're both world-class sprinters.
Usain Bolt has the best name for a sprinter, if there was like a world class security engineer named Diku Hackermans, I am pretty sure it would be like hard to forget that. Also I have had a couple beers.
This is sometimes known as Nominative Determinism[0], or an "aptonym".
It's probably some combination of a) people getting small advantages in their careers by having memorable names and b) the weird poetic sense of humour common among deities.
[0] https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6627
It's probably some combination of a) people getting small advantages in their careers by having memorable names and b) the weird poetic sense of humour common among deities.
[0] https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6627
I disagree that it would be bad for the league to have them all suspended at the same time. Worse pitching = more hitting.
The MLB seriously needs more hitting.
The MLB seriously needs more hitting.
Not if the games become boring strikeout fests.
I wouldn't be surprised if the MLB secretly notified the teams that they have x days to stop it because enforcement will commence thereafter. That way the MLB still looks clean but they get rid of the problem. MLB is very concerned about their image.
Yeah, that's sort of what he was hinting. They probably won't announce anything, but it'll be clear in retrospect from the stats. They're already having to account for it in their data models during training.
MLB has been very clear about their intentions, if not yet the specifics: From four days ago:
>It’s been less than a week since Major League Baseball made known that it will begin to crack down on the use of foreign substances by pitchers...
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/06/mlb-gerrit-cole-trevo...
Some of the expected specifics to be enacted:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/06/latest-on-mlbs-crackd...
>It’s been less than a week since Major League Baseball made known that it will begin to crack down on the use of foreign substances by pitchers...
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/06/mlb-gerrit-cole-trevo...
Some of the expected specifics to be enacted:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/06/latest-on-mlbs-crackd...
> They're not doing enforcement out of nowhere because everyone knows that everyone is doing it, and it'd lead to the league enforcing against all teams simultaneously, which ultimately would be bad for the league itself to have at the very least none of it's star pitchers for some time period.
Why? All you have to do is apply the rules at the end of a season, so that it applies to everyone equally. You can mention they are going to be enforced beforehand. If it applies at the start of a new season, it is fair for everyone. Nobody got an unfair advantage. And if you inform those involved beforehand, everyone can prepare in whatever way is necessary. Soccer rules get updated like this all the time. For example, it would not surprise me if rules are going to be updated after Eriksen's accident (with regards to continuing playing the match), but such would not apply during the European Championship. You wouldn't do same with say VAR either.
Why? All you have to do is apply the rules at the end of a season, so that it applies to everyone equally. You can mention they are going to be enforced beforehand. If it applies at the start of a new season, it is fair for everyone. Nobody got an unfair advantage. And if you inform those involved beforehand, everyone can prepare in whatever way is necessary. Soccer rules get updated like this all the time. For example, it would not surprise me if rules are going to be updated after Eriksen's accident (with regards to continuing playing the match), but such would not apply during the European Championship. You wouldn't do same with say VAR either.
Two things. One, the rules are already on the books, they just haven’t been enforced. Two, offense is down significantly across the league. MLB needs to do something to level the playing field or fans will lose interest. Pitching duels can be fun, but not every damn game, and that’s what we’ve gotten a lot of this season.
MLB currently has a big problem with balls in play. We’ve trended every year towards “three true outcomes” baseball (that’s when an at bat ends with a HR, strikeout, or walk). It’s an optimal winning strategy in a lot of cases. It’s also dull.
MLB currently has a big problem with balls in play. We’ve trended every year towards “three true outcomes” baseball (that’s when an at bat ends with a HR, strikeout, or walk). It’s an optimal winning strategy in a lot of cases. It’s also dull.
Aw, I thought this was going to be about football pitches...
John Beck did a fair amount of "pitch doctoring" at Cambridge United. He would play an exclusively long ball game, hoofing it to a set of 7ft tall strikers. To help with this, he demanded that the grass be grown long in the corners to hold up the ball and basically ploughed the rest of the pitch to kill any attempt at a passing game. He was nicknamed "Dracula" for sucking the life out of the game :)
John Beck did a fair amount of "pitch doctoring" at Cambridge United. He would play an exclusively long ball game, hoofing it to a set of 7ft tall strikers. To help with this, he demanded that the grass be grown long in the corners to hold up the ball and basically ploughed the rest of the pitch to kill any attempt at a passing game. He was nicknamed "Dracula" for sucking the life out of the game :)
https://backofthenet.fandom.com/wiki/John_Beck
> The corners of the pitch developed their own eco-systems and it was all too common to see a player go to take a corner only to be mauled by a cougar.
> The corners of the pitch developed their own eco-systems and it was all too common to see a player go to take a corner only to be mauled by a cougar.
When Curzon Ashton (a wonderful low-league team from Greater Manchester) managed to get through to the second round of the FA Cup, drawing AFC Wimbledon, the manager decreed that the pitch lines at the home ground be narrowed to the minimum permissible width, in order to hamper Wimbledon's more refined style of play down the wings.
> Wimbledon's more refined style
Imagine having a less-refined style than Wimbledon
Imagine having a less-refined style than Wimbledon
It's great stuff for the kids to watch. You can get a seat near the touchline and it teaches them how to play real physical football. :-)
Gerrit Cole on if he ever used Spider Tack while pitching:
"I don't quite know how to answer that, to be honest...If MLB wants to legislate some more stuff, that's a conversation that we can have"
https://twitter.com/snyyankees/status/1402379195007778821
"I don't quite know how to answer that, to be honest...If MLB wants to legislate some more stuff, that's a conversation that we can have"
https://twitter.com/snyyankees/status/1402379195007778821
It's incredible how much he stumbled over that question when it was so obviously coming. He eventually gave a politician non-answer but he looks like a deer in the headlights at first lol.
I don’t know the circumstances, but that sounds like a “I can’t say exactly, but it rhymes with Nes and starts with y.” E.g. he would want to say yes, but also doesn’t want to be the first on the chopping block?
Yeah if you watch the video though it's not a smooth version of that, he stutters and then freezes up for awhile first, like he was completely unprepared for the question.
I remain continually amazed how many people are incapable of just saying “no comment”.
When asked "Are you cheating?" a "No comment" is pretty much a "Yes!", which is why they stumble.
Yes, that’s true. But a short “no comment” also doesn’t give a damning and entertaining video clip of you stumbling around trying to say no without saying no. In general, if you're doing something bad, try to avoid going viral in the process.
It’s the same reason why companies do it too. People forget a “no comment” faster than they forget an obvious lie or an insensitive corporate response.
It’s the same reason why companies do it too. People forget a “no comment” faster than they forget an obvious lie or an insensitive corporate response.
Oh, I agree, but once they are wrong footed ...
You would think they would have that covered in prep "If some asks if you are using stickum/tar/glue you say 'The league frowns on such activities and ...'"
You would think they would have that covered in prep "If some asks if you are using stickum/tar/glue you say 'The league frowns on such activities and ...'"
I actually find the childish antics of Baseball--trick plays, fights, intentionally hitting players with pitching, sign stealing, sticky balls--to be a charming part of the game.
I feel like this is over 50% of Jomboy content, and I love it
I would at least draw a line between antics and assaulting someone.
Fist fights between men used to be a pretty normal way to resolve disputes.
There are a lot of things that used to be pretty normal that no longer are.
This is very true. It makes me wonder, what has driven this change? Human nature didn't change over the course of a few decades.
Unleaded gasoline
sounds like the cheesy reason I enjoy minor league hockey more than the NHL Pros... more fights! Showier playstyle as the minor players try to make names for themselves to move up etc.
That's probably why they aren't banning / enforcing it. I mean have a referee check a pitcher's hands / gloves and seal the balls until use, and check it afterwards.
This is good parable about how corruption becomes systemic. When integrity, and acting in good faith, becomes a weakness, it forces everyone to cheat or get cut. And on a larger scale, it gives integrity a bad name, a foolish position adopted only by suckers and losers who aren't willing to do whatever it takes to win. And so we descend even further into the cynical, amoral corner of the Nash equilibrium which is objectively worse for everyone.
The league should give a mild suspension to everyone doing this now, with harsher suspensions in the future, and the introduction of consistent, rigorous testing. They need to make it easy to do the right thing.
(Interestingly, a similar problem exists in the ping pong world. Players apply grippy, volatile chemicals to their paddles to increase grip on the ball. It got so bad that tournaments started doing gas analysis and sequestering paddles until match start to curb the practice. Imagine if the MLB did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTCbpWmPzTY&t=0s)
The league should give a mild suspension to everyone doing this now, with harsher suspensions in the future, and the introduction of consistent, rigorous testing. They need to make it easy to do the right thing.
(Interestingly, a similar problem exists in the ping pong world. Players apply grippy, volatile chemicals to their paddles to increase grip on the ball. It got so bad that tournaments started doing gas analysis and sequestering paddles until match start to curb the practice. Imagine if the MLB did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTCbpWmPzTY&t=0s)
I like your framing, because this dynamic occurs in so many places. Pretty much everyone was doping in cycling during the Lance Armstrong era - if you weren't, it's highly unlikely you would have been remotely competitive. Similarly, there were tons of mortgage brokers in the mid 00s who could see that everything would end badly - but if you were an exec at a mortgage company and weren't willing to give a loan to anyone who could fog a mirror, you'd greatly underperform your competition in the short term, and you'd be canned long before the end game became apparent.
Euro 2020 football competition in progress, brings two more examples.
Commentators talking about how beautiful and artful some players abilities to consistently foul their opponents just enough to stop play, but without getting a yellow card. Players who cynically dive, roll around on the floor acting at every opportunity, or honestly try to claim a corner / throw in should be theirs even when they’re clearly the last to make contact with the ball before it goes out of play.
I only vaguely remember a time when calling it “the beautiful game” didn’t seem ironic.
The need to win at any cost has become paramount and pervasive.
Commentators talking about how beautiful and artful some players abilities to consistently foul their opponents just enough to stop play, but without getting a yellow card. Players who cynically dive, roll around on the floor acting at every opportunity, or honestly try to claim a corner / throw in should be theirs even when they’re clearly the last to make contact with the ball before it goes out of play.
I only vaguely remember a time when calling it “the beautiful game” didn’t seem ironic.
The need to win at any cost has become paramount and pervasive.
Are you in the UK? I too noticed how much emphasis there's been in the commentary in this tournament on players being "cute" with tactical fouls.
I was quite surprised too, yesterday how the commentators appeared to be condoning the fouls. Although the Croatian side fouled more so... (also, is it just me or do national teams foul more then domestic clubs?)
Back in that era I worked for a Wells Fargo joint venture doing credit investigations. Our clients were LOs, and my job was to research negative items on credit reports. If I could get the creditor to say one of a set of things, it would allow me to strip the item from the report and then resubmit it to the big 3 for rescoring. Basically I turned loan refusals into acceptances.
It became clear to me quite quickly the business's QA process was designed for deniability, not to actually find fraud. The highest performing person in my unit never made a single phone call all day. He'd claim he'd been at it so long he had contacts at all the creditors he could just fax. What he was really doing was simply fabricating his work.
The most pathetic thing about it is doing the job straight up was quite easy. I spent about 2 hours a day on work, and the rest doing whatever I wanted on the web. The negativity of all this actually inspired me to shift careers to coding, so I used my remaining time there to learn a ton, mostly reading CS papers.
I'd say the worst institutionalized nonsense I saw there was WF's "Alternative credit" reports.
Here the borrowers would supply 3 references of someone they'd paid installment payments over time. Typical examples were jewelry stores, small used car lots, etc. It was immediately clear to me most of these were straight up fabricated. I'd often call someone, they'd answer with an ordinary family name, then I'd follow the script and say who I was calling from, and they'd immediately switch modes and say "Oh yes, this is actually Shady Dave's Used Cars. $Borrower bought a car from me. They always paid as agreed" often without me having mentioned the borrower's name yet. In fact the wording was so consistent it was absolutely clear the LOs had told them exactly what to say. But under the rules I was supposed to follow, that counted.
At the time I knew it was fraud, but was somewhat ambivalent about it, as nearly all of these people were low income minorities or immigrants that face a great deal of discrimination in the loan application process. Once I was a bit older I understood better and regretted that ambivalence.
When the thunderclouds started to appear near 2008, I was not surprised in the slightest.
More recently when I read headlines about WF branch managers opening 2nd accounts in their customer's name without request nor consent, I was also totally unsurprised.
The corruption is deliberate and is instituted top down, just in a way that's more wink, nod, and shaping of processes to create obvious opportunities than overt. I'm most familiar with WF, but I'm confident this is the industry norm.
I think people generally underestimate the scale of institutionalized corruption, even in supposedly low corruption nations, of this form, and how much of a loss it is to the economy and the ordinary person.
I'm not going to pretend I'm smart enough to think up some technocratic solution.
It became clear to me quite quickly the business's QA process was designed for deniability, not to actually find fraud. The highest performing person in my unit never made a single phone call all day. He'd claim he'd been at it so long he had contacts at all the creditors he could just fax. What he was really doing was simply fabricating his work.
The most pathetic thing about it is doing the job straight up was quite easy. I spent about 2 hours a day on work, and the rest doing whatever I wanted on the web. The negativity of all this actually inspired me to shift careers to coding, so I used my remaining time there to learn a ton, mostly reading CS papers.
I'd say the worst institutionalized nonsense I saw there was WF's "Alternative credit" reports.
Here the borrowers would supply 3 references of someone they'd paid installment payments over time. Typical examples were jewelry stores, small used car lots, etc. It was immediately clear to me most of these were straight up fabricated. I'd often call someone, they'd answer with an ordinary family name, then I'd follow the script and say who I was calling from, and they'd immediately switch modes and say "Oh yes, this is actually Shady Dave's Used Cars. $Borrower bought a car from me. They always paid as agreed" often without me having mentioned the borrower's name yet. In fact the wording was so consistent it was absolutely clear the LOs had told them exactly what to say. But under the rules I was supposed to follow, that counted.
At the time I knew it was fraud, but was somewhat ambivalent about it, as nearly all of these people were low income minorities or immigrants that face a great deal of discrimination in the loan application process. Once I was a bit older I understood better and regretted that ambivalence.
When the thunderclouds started to appear near 2008, I was not surprised in the slightest.
More recently when I read headlines about WF branch managers opening 2nd accounts in their customer's name without request nor consent, I was also totally unsurprised.
The corruption is deliberate and is instituted top down, just in a way that's more wink, nod, and shaping of processes to create obvious opportunities than overt. I'm most familiar with WF, but I'm confident this is the industry norm.
I think people generally underestimate the scale of institutionalized corruption, even in supposedly low corruption nations, of this form, and how much of a loss it is to the economy and the ordinary person.
I'm not going to pretend I'm smart enough to think up some technocratic solution.
> I'd often call someone, they'd answer with an ordinary family name, then I'd follow the script and say who I was calling from, and they'd immediately switch modes and say "Oh yes, this is actually Shady Dave's Used Cars. $Borrower bought a car from me. They always paid as agreed" often without me having mentioned the borrower's name yet. In fact the wording was so consistent it was absolutely clear the LOs had told them exactly what to say.
Sounds legit! lmao. For pete's sake, this could have been a story straight up from the Big Short.
Sounds legit! lmao. For pete's sake, this could have been a story straight up from the Big Short.
I absolutely love that movie, for obvious reasons. It's stylized, but in a way that captures the insanity of it all perfectly.
Have you watched Too Big to Fail by HBO films? It has some great actors (Paul Giamatti fan club here!) and is really entertaining and well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXQ5VfBTNpg
I have not. That's a great cast. I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip.
> If you were an exec at a mortgage company and weren't willing to give a loan to anyone who could fog a mirror, you'd greatly underperform your competition in the short term, and you'd be canned long before the end game became apparent.
I would have assumed that loan-officer regulation would have meant that wouldn't happen. How many LOs kept their accreditation after the crash?
I would have assumed that loan-officer regulation would have meant that wouldn't happen. How many LOs kept their accreditation after the crash?
With hundreds of thousands of loan officers throughout the country, you'd need substantially more people hunting down regulation violations than there were. Or are.
My experience is that right now, most loan officers can scarcely fog a mirror.
Cheating has a long history in baseball.
There was a point where a large fraction of players were on amphetamine.
Gaylord Perry semi-openly used Vaseline on the ball, to the point where he offered to do a commercial for Vaseline. He's now in the Hall of Fame.
McGwire missed the HoF by a mile due to the steroids scandal, but Bonds is likely to miss it by a slim margin.
Ty Cobb was famous for shady base running tactics, so this isn't new
There was a point where a large fraction of players were on amphetamine.
Gaylord Perry semi-openly used Vaseline on the ball, to the point where he offered to do a commercial for Vaseline. He's now in the Hall of Fame.
McGwire missed the HoF by a mile due to the steroids scandal, but Bonds is likely to miss it by a slim margin.
Ty Cobb was famous for shady base running tactics, so this isn't new
I couldn't find "shady" but this one is funny:
https://www.vintagedetroit.com/blog/2013/08/03/ty-cobbs-most...
The home plate argument is so absorbing that after stealing third, Cobb can pretend to join the argument. They'd forgot to call time; he scored.
"El Mago" Javier Báez would be this season's equivalent, with a gift for getting his opponents to forget how to play the game. He recently turned an easy out at first into a pointless rundown, so his teammate could steal home:
https://youtu.be/-bVUWNj5XrU
https://www.vintagedetroit.com/blog/2013/08/03/ty-cobbs-most...
The home plate argument is so absorbing that after stealing third, Cobb can pretend to join the argument. They'd forgot to call time; he scored.
"El Mago" Javier Báez would be this season's equivalent, with a gift for getting his opponents to forget how to play the game. He recently turned an easy out at first into a pointless rundown, so his teammate could steal home:
https://youtu.be/-bVUWNj5XrU
That Baez play is genuinely why I love baseball, occasionally. That's just so good, his teammates are so happy, and the other team is immediately flustered (as indicated by the massive errors immediately after). That type of thing reminds you that it's just a game.
https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/august-24-1909-an-honest-sli...
My opinion is the balance of the evidence shows that Cobb played within the rules, but he certainly took advantage of his reputation of being dirty to make steals that other players might not have succeeded in.
Gaylord Perry (clearly not the most neutral party) claimed the something similar about his Vaseline ball; he said that he got a lot of psychological advantage by pretending to doctor the ball by overtly reaching for odd places before the delivery.
Perhaps I should revise my earlier comment to point out the long tradition of gamesmanship in baseball. If you get a (deserved or not) reputation for cheating, how legitimate is it to use that for gamesmanship? In baseball, doing so seems to be clearly part of the culture.
My opinion is the balance of the evidence shows that Cobb played within the rules, but he certainly took advantage of his reputation of being dirty to make steals that other players might not have succeeded in.
Gaylord Perry (clearly not the most neutral party) claimed the something similar about his Vaseline ball; he said that he got a lot of psychological advantage by pretending to doctor the ball by overtly reaching for odd places before the delivery.
Perhaps I should revise my earlier comment to point out the long tradition of gamesmanship in baseball. If you get a (deserved or not) reputation for cheating, how legitimate is it to use that for gamesmanship? In baseball, doing so seems to be clearly part of the culture.
Javy is not the best player in baseball, but he is by far the greatest agent of chaos and the most fun to watch. He's been perfecting the head first swim slide, where he goes around the base leading with his left (inside) hand, then pulls it back and reaches across with his right while the defender swipes at an arm that's not there to try to tag him out.
https://youtu.be/upXHTI98fTg
https://youtu.be/upXHTI98fTg
> Ty Cobb was famous for shady base running tactics, so this isn't new
I've never heard anything about Cobb being shady or breaking rules. He was known to be hyper-aggressive and have an angry, paranoid personality; he was always five steps ahead of the competition; but I never heard of him cheating.
> Gaylord Perry
There are many unwritten rules and exceptions. Perry wasn't 'cheating' like the steroid users. He toed the line of the unwritten exceptions that everyone, and every serious fan, knew.
> Cheating has a long history in baseball.
So does playing by the rules and enforcement of the rules. Arguably the beginning of modern baseball was when the owners hired a federal judge as Commissioner in ~1920 to clean up the game, and Landis promptly banned several star players. Pete Rose was banned for gambling.
The statement is meaningless: People have cheated in everything, and followed the rules in everything. People have committed crime everywhere, but that saying Palo Alto has a long history of murder isn't meaningful.
I've never heard anything about Cobb being shady or breaking rules. He was known to be hyper-aggressive and have an angry, paranoid personality; he was always five steps ahead of the competition; but I never heard of him cheating.
> Gaylord Perry
There are many unwritten rules and exceptions. Perry wasn't 'cheating' like the steroid users. He toed the line of the unwritten exceptions that everyone, and every serious fan, knew.
> Cheating has a long history in baseball.
So does playing by the rules and enforcement of the rules. Arguably the beginning of modern baseball was when the owners hired a federal judge as Commissioner in ~1920 to clean up the game, and Landis promptly banned several star players. Pete Rose was banned for gambling.
The statement is meaningless: People have cheated in everything, and followed the rules in everything. People have committed crime everywhere, but that saying Palo Alto has a long history of murder isn't meaningful.
It’s seems straightforward to have random testing of the balls throughout a game. All the umpire needs to do is ask the catcher to hand it over. If they’re suspecting this is happening and they’re not doing it, it’s intentional.
Does the public find the defense heavy game more enjoyable? I’d imagine more hits and homers would liven things up.
Does the public find the defense heavy game more enjoyable? I’d imagine more hits and homers would liven things up.
They are using the same chemicals that batters use so it might be impossible to detect
Nearly every ball touched by a bat is tossed out of the game--foul balls, balls in the dirt, balls that get tossed back by the pitcher. Games typically use between 84 and 120 balls. It would be trivial to detect if the ump did a check on every ball in play or after random outs. It's not like the umps can't see the same action the batter sees.
The sticky stuff on the bat shouldn't cover more than 16" from the handle. It may be 14", but I'm pretty sure it's 16".
So, while some could get on the ball, it's not very likely and it'd not be in very high quantity.
Wait, no... I decided to check before hitting the button and I'm too lazy to edit the above. I misremembered. It's 18". (Section 3.02)
https://content.mlb.com/documents/2/2/4/305750224/2019_Offic... (That's actually 2019, but I doubt it has changed. The rule has been there forever.)
The point remains the same. Ideally, you'd be contacting the ball much further up the bat. There still might be some transfer, but probably not a whole lot.
So, while some could get on the ball, it's not very likely and it'd not be in very high quantity.
Wait, no... I decided to check before hitting the button and I'm too lazy to edit the above. I misremembered. It's 18". (Section 3.02)
https://content.mlb.com/documents/2/2/4/305750224/2019_Offic... (That's actually 2019, but I doubt it has changed. The rule has been there forever.)
The point remains the same. Ideally, you'd be contacting the ball much further up the bat. There still might be some transfer, but probably not a whole lot.
You could also collect every strikeout ball and put them in a bag marked by pitcher for analysis. After a few games, you could quite easily see which had uncharacteristically higher tar on them versus baseline. That is, if the MLB actually cared.
Assuming strikeouts with no fouls. Which is probably true much of the time with these unhittable pitches.
Pitchers are putting the substance on every ball. Nearly all strikeouts are caught directly by the catcher, and the 3rd strike is the hardest to get, so it would be a very good sample indeed.
To play devils advocate, the batter also wants to know the pitcher has control of the ball. It has always been an unspoken rule that pitchers did this in colder weather, because the ball is harder to grip in cold weather. A batter would prefer to know the pitcher won’t unintentionally hit them with a 96 mph fastball.
I will completely agree this has gone too far. There are a lot of unspoken rules in baseball which to me is a feature not a bug. This has gone too far, but there are more layers than just “this is against the rules”
I will completely agree this has gone too far. There are a lot of unspoken rules in baseball which to me is a feature not a bug. This has gone too far, but there are more layers than just “this is against the rules”
Article already covers this, including the normal use of rosin. This is not that.
Eh, sports is an entertainment industry.
All the drama about striving to be better, and fairplay and cheating, is all just to entertain.
So this scandal is about as important to real world morals as the disappointing last seasons of Game of Thrones.
Scandals and drama, up to a point, increase engagement. (But that has to be managed carefully.)
Btw, I'm not saying that anyone in the industry has to consciously think like that. It's just what the competition with other forms of entertainment rewards.
The Cheetah doesn't have to understand how it runs fast, it just has to run fast. The entrepreneur doesn't necessarily have to understand the customer, we just need enough people trying so that some of them deliver what people are willing to pay for---even if those trying have the wrong idea about what they are doing works.
All the drama about striving to be better, and fairplay and cheating, is all just to entertain.
So this scandal is about as important to real world morals as the disappointing last seasons of Game of Thrones.
Scandals and drama, up to a point, increase engagement. (But that has to be managed carefully.)
Btw, I'm not saying that anyone in the industry has to consciously think like that. It's just what the competition with other forms of entertainment rewards.
The Cheetah doesn't have to understand how it runs fast, it just has to run fast. The entrepreneur doesn't necessarily have to understand the customer, we just need enough people trying so that some of them deliver what people are willing to pay for---even if those trying have the wrong idea about what they are doing works.
Betraying the trust of others in any context is wrong, and has moral implications beyond the immediate harm to the counter-party.
Your GoT example is nonsensical: it ignores the difference between fictional immorality and real-world immorality. Your assertion that this article is mere spectacle is baseless. It seems to me that you give no weight at all to betrayal, and I believe that has real implications for those considering taking you on as a counter-party in any context. Heck, I'd probably avoid playing board games with someone who espoused these kinds of views; apart from cheaters being less fun to play with, I find the "If you get away with it, it's fine" attitude to trigger a strong feeling of disgust, akin to the stench of fresh shit.
Your GoT example is nonsensical: it ignores the difference between fictional immorality and real-world immorality. Your assertion that this article is mere spectacle is baseless. It seems to me that you give no weight at all to betrayal, and I believe that has real implications for those considering taking you on as a counter-party in any context. Heck, I'd probably avoid playing board games with someone who espoused these kinds of views; apart from cheaters being less fun to play with, I find the "If you get away with it, it's fine" attitude to trigger a strong feeling of disgust, akin to the stench of fresh shit.
I mention GoT not because characters in GoT did immoral things, that's indeed fictional. I mention GoT, because the quality of entertainment dropped.
I guess I should have taken eg the Simpsons as a example. (Their quality dropped a lot after the first few seasons.)
I guess I should have taken eg the Simpsons as a example. (Their quality dropped a lot after the first few seasons.)
> which is objectively worse for everyone
But why in this case it’s worse? Just allow sticky stuff to be used, compensate with ball design. Everyone will use it, no need to test and worry, no cheating scandals.
Reminds me of current insane F1 regulations while there exists simple way to solve most problems widely used in other series: rules that specify size of air inlets, which naturally limits power of the engine.
But why in this case it’s worse? Just allow sticky stuff to be used, compensate with ball design. Everyone will use it, no need to test and worry, no cheating scandals.
Reminds me of current insane F1 regulations while there exists simple way to solve most problems widely used in other series: rules that specify size of air inlets, which naturally limits power of the engine.
Yes. This is also why pricing in externalities is so important in capitalist economies: otherwise honest players in the market can't compete and only the worst companies survive.
"In American sports" ..... already been a scandal elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering...
Cricket has a long history of ball tampering in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering
Cricket is much murkier than baseball in this regard. Some amount of "ball tampering" is allowed in cricket, whereas, AFAIK none is in baseball.
In cricket you can polish the ball against clothing and use sweat or saliva (with some caveats against sweetened saliva). Moreover, replacing the ball is a big event in cricket.
But yeah there have been a couple of ball tampering scandals recently in cricket. One involving pants zippers and another involving sugar in pockets IIRC.
In cricket you can polish the ball against clothing and use sweat or saliva (with some caveats against sweetened saliva). Moreover, replacing the ball is a big event in cricket.
But yeah there have been a couple of ball tampering scandals recently in cricket. One involving pants zippers and another involving sugar in pockets IIRC.
> But yeah there have been a couple of ball tampering scandals recently in cricket.
The Australian test team decided time-honoured subtleties such as sweetened-saliva-on-linen was not sufficiently effective: they literally brought sand-paper onto the field.
The Australian test team decided time-honoured subtleties such as sweetened-saliva-on-linen was not sufficiently effective: they literally brought sand-paper onto the field.
Yeah that was amazingly egregious. At least you can excuse the presence of sweets and zippers on pants on the field.
No way you're going to be able to explain sandpaper in your pockets.
No way you're going to be able to explain sandpaper in your pockets.
In Cricket umpires inspect the balls quite often though, they would never permit a sticky substance on a cricket ball.
You're allowed to scuff up one side and polish the other.
You're allowed to scuff up one side and polish the other.
They overcorrected with the changes to the ball. Not only do the balls fly a shorter distance, but they raised the seams as well, leading to more movement and break.
Use of sticky substances absolutely is a big deal and the league is right to crack down, but it also gives them cover for their missteps with changing the ball. By raising the profile of the foreign substance abuses, it gives them ammunition when negotiating with the very powerful MLBPA.
Use of sticky substances absolutely is a big deal and the league is right to crack down, but it also gives them cover for their missteps with changing the ball. By raising the profile of the foreign substance abuses, it gives them ammunition when negotiating with the very powerful MLBPA.
After the mlb announced they were going to start checking for and taking action again foreign substances a couple of weeks ago, spin rates were down across several of the leagues big pitchers.
It’s not the ball.
It’s not the ball.
The sticky tack increases spin, but the changes to the ball act as a multiplier. Bigger seams make the increased spin more effective; reduce coefficient of restitution makes a mistake less costly (so pitchers can take more strategic risks).
TLDR, it's a multiplier on the spin rate issue.
TLDR, it's a multiplier on the spin rate issue.
Sticky substances affects spin rate, correct. I'm saying that there are other factors beyond that contributing to the record low levels of offensive production and proliferation of no hitters.
The worst decision MLB ever made was refusing to take back Houston's world series trophy and place in the record books. They signaled to the world that cheating is OK.
Not surprisingly, Gerritt Cole at the center of this seems to have started down this path immediately after joining the Astros.
Not surprisingly, Gerritt Cole at the center of this seems to have started down this path immediately after joining the Astros.
My guess is MLB did that because it would be a stain on their history. People still talk about the 1919 Black Sox scandal.
I don't understand, why would they care about that? Are you saying people would be less interested in baseball if the MLB were upfront about the past instances of cheating?
Records and stats broadly are huge parts of the core of the game's history. They made a far worse decision to both intentionally allow the steroid era and then take no action to eg protect/reclaim the records of Hank Aaron and Roger Maris.
If you won't protect Hank Aaron's home run record, which was a staggering sports accomplishment, you're sure not going to take back a mere World Series trophy. After signaling they were ok with destroying such a large part of the game's history and what the fans enjoy, a Houston was inevitable. Houston ruined one year particularly, if they had contained it properly. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, the steroid era overall and leaving that fraud in the record books, destroyed the game's history across more than half a century of competition. The long lineage in MLB is critical, being able to look back, measure the history, track the numbers, make a big deal of the feats, it's central to the game. Now a lot of it is garbage. How do you fix Bonds being the home run king? Juice the ball and let someone hit 80 home runs? Juice the ball and hope someone hits 800 for a career? It becomes a joke and they trapped themselves in it.
If you won't protect Hank Aaron's home run record, which was a staggering sports accomplishment, you're sure not going to take back a mere World Series trophy. After signaling they were ok with destroying such a large part of the game's history and what the fans enjoy, a Houston was inevitable. Houston ruined one year particularly, if they had contained it properly. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, the steroid era overall and leaving that fraud in the record books, destroyed the game's history across more than half a century of competition. The long lineage in MLB is critical, being able to look back, measure the history, track the numbers, make a big deal of the feats, it's central to the game. Now a lot of it is garbage. How do you fix Bonds being the home run king? Juice the ball and let someone hit 80 home runs? Juice the ball and hope someone hits 800 for a career? It becomes a joke and they trapped themselves in it.
I agree it's ridiculous that bonds and mcgwire weren't removed as well. That being said, steroids were widely being used even during Aaron's time (no I'm not accusing him of anything).
Unless they're going to treat it like it tour de France and keep blood samples from every player for decades, I'm not sure how they can say for certain what records are legit vs not.
Unless they're going to treat it like it tour de France and keep blood samples from every player for decades, I'm not sure how they can say for certain what records are legit vs not.
Wouldn't this be super easy to crack down on? The umpires have the ability to throw players out of the game.
Apparently the only way that umpires would check was if an opposing coach complained. Opposing coaches never complained because they knew their own players were doing it, too. The league stepping in insures there won’t be any fear of that sort of retaliation.
Umpires routinely touch balls because they take the ones that hit the dirt. Surely they’d notice then, unless the ones that hit the dirt aren’t adulterated for some reason.
Catchers have gotten good at either tossing the balls out of play themselves, or doing a quick wipe of the ball before handing it to the ump.
Watch how Yadier Molina rubs up the ball after it stuck to his chest protector.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGnS-H4Cc-4
Watch how Yadier Molina rubs up the ball after it stuck to his chest protector.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGnS-H4Cc-4
Wow is that blatant. You can tell everyone knows what's up, even the sportscasters, but no one wants to do jack.
That's so pathetic. How can you call yourself a sport if you see players break rules so blatantly.
Also, a whole range of substances are technically illegal, so even if you were using something less egregious than the recently engineered stuff you could still be retaliated against for reporting.
[deleted]
It would be super easy for the NYPD to give me tickets for jaywalking too, but they don’t.
The reason this was not enforced is because nobody cared and most people involved didn’t really consider it cheating, not because enforcement is difficult.
The reason this was not enforced is because nobody cared and most people involved didn’t really consider it cheating, not because enforcement is difficult.
If you're not cheating in baseball, you aren't trying. It's such a boring game, made worse by sabermetrics, that this kind of meta game is the only remaining interest. Tweak the balls. Tweak the bats. Sign-stealing. Tweak batting approaches. Fiddle with the mound. Chase ever better steroids.
Without that arms race, it'd be horrifically dull.
Without that arms race, it'd be horrifically dull.
As someone in Europe whose knowledge of baseball is from US movies: are there technical barriers to test for a coating substance?
I believe that the ball does not belong to the team that pitches it, right? It is given to them by the referee (?). So what's the problem to check if there is any substance on it after the game (the part where one team has control of the ball) and if there is anything, well they are disqualified.
Or is it that nobody is interested in changing the status quo?
I believe that the ball does not belong to the team that pitches it, right? It is given to them by the referee (?). So what's the problem to check if there is any substance on it after the game (the part where one team has control of the ball) and if there is anything, well they are disqualified.
Or is it that nobody is interested in changing the status quo?
Dozens of balls are used per game, not just one, but yeah in principle they could check them. The only reason I can imagine it being hard is the balls get pretty banged up from dirt, bats, sweat, etc. — not sure how well illegal grip substances would survive.
Know nothing about baseball. What I can gather from the article:
"Pitchers head in there before games to swipe tongue depressors, which they use to apply their sticky stuff to wherever they choose to hide it, then return afterward to grab rubbing alcohol to dissolve the residue."
"Once baseballs are out of play, they are supposed to be thrown into the home dugout, where they can be collected by MLB for analysis. Some teams, observers note, have tried tossing especially sticky balls into the visitors’ dugout."
"Pitchers head in there before games to swipe tongue depressors, which they use to apply their sticky stuff to wherever they choose to hide it, then return afterward to grab rubbing alcohol to dissolve the residue."
"Once baseballs are out of play, they are supposed to be thrown into the home dugout, where they can be collected by MLB for analysis. Some teams, observers note, have tried tossing especially sticky balls into the visitors’ dugout."
They have been checking balls as part of their information gathering to see the extend of the problem, but remember there is no one ball. The ball is replaced pretty much any time it does anything other than go directly from the pitchers hand into the catcher’s mitt. Also any time it is fouled off, or hit into play, etc. If you watch an at bat and the ball hits the dirt, you will see the catcher get a new ball from an ump.
So the "sticky stuff", as it is sort of being childishly called throughout the league, is usually on the pitcher somewhere — some like to put it on the brim of their cap, some in the glove, some in their belt, you get the idea. Frankly, they have been very blatant about it all season. After every new ball they “go to their cap” or “go to their glove” to get more grip again. It’s been pretty blatant, actually, pitchers have been really thumbing their nose at the league.
Example: https://twitter.com/jomboymedia/status/1399904704293969921
So the "sticky stuff", as it is sort of being childishly called throughout the league, is usually on the pitcher somewhere — some like to put it on the brim of their cap, some in the glove, some in their belt, you get the idea. Frankly, they have been very blatant about it all season. After every new ball they “go to their cap” or “go to their glove” to get more grip again. It’s been pretty blatant, actually, pitchers have been really thumbing their nose at the league.
Example: https://twitter.com/jomboymedia/status/1399904704293969921
OMG, TIL they spin ball to 2800 RPM just by throwing it.
It's odd that the league doesn't have a rule where one coach can require the ump to do an 'equipment check' for whatever on any player. After the ball is caught by the catcher, the Ump can be required to check the ball. If it's sticky, the pitcher is out and the batter walks. Then they figure out what to do with the cheater.
And the coach can do this twice a game or something like that.
And the coach can do this twice a game or something like that.
Coach should be able to call unlimited times as long as they are right.
This is a rule. Coaches are allowed to call for a check whenever they want. There's a few (in)famous instances of it and the player is immediately thrown out of the game.
Opposing coaches just don't bother because their guys are cheating too.
Opposing coaches just don't bother because their guys are cheating too.
A coach can ask for a check. They will probably find something.
The next inning, the opposing coach reciprocates and asks for a check, also probably finding something.
Both coaches are incentivized not to check so that their pitcher is not checked.
The next inning, the opposing coach reciprocates and asks for a check, also probably finding something.
Both coaches are incentivized not to check so that their pitcher is not checked.
If the players faced consequences, then the coaches would be incentivized to check.
Imagine if you could pop out your opponents best player because, well, he's cheating?
I think I understand the 'unwritten rules' etc. but it seems maybe it's time to sort it out a little better.
In a way that doesn't incentivize people to be apocalyptic about it.
Imagine if you could pop out your opponents best player because, well, he's cheating?
I think I understand the 'unwritten rules' etc. but it seems maybe it's time to sort it out a little better.
In a way that doesn't incentivize people to be apocalyptic about it.
Wouldn't the person with the worse "best" pitcher be incentivized to check? It's a zero sum game. Plus they could always have their best pitcher not cheat, then call the other team on it, and now you get your best pitcher and the other team only gets their second-best pitcher.
Baseball is a weird game with lots of traditions and a long memory.
This year, your team may have the worse pitching staff and get the best of a team with a better pitching staff by calling for checks.
Next year, when your team is better, or even the same year against a team with a worse pitching staff, you will be on the receiving end of this “zero sum game”.
Not to mention, the coach who snitches will probably never be able to coach again for violating an unofficial code of conduct.
That’s my take on the situation.
This year, your team may have the worse pitching staff and get the best of a team with a better pitching staff by calling for checks.
Next year, when your team is better, or even the same year against a team with a worse pitching staff, you will be on the receiving end of this “zero sum game”.
Not to mention, the coach who snitches will probably never be able to coach again for violating an unofficial code of conduct.
That’s my take on the situation.
Baseball is thick with unwritten/unspoken rules that define the respect and integrity of the game. Coaches don’t like to do things that put “the integrity of the game” at risk. Very similar to golf in that regard.
> Brand-new major league baseballs are so slick that umpire attendants are tasked with rubbing them before games with special mud from a secret spot along a tributary of the Delaware River. Pitchers also have access to a bag of rosin, made from fir-tree sap, that lies behind the mound.
Fun fact about the secret river mud, and also interesting that certain substances are specifically allowed.
Fun fact about the secret river mud, and also interesting that certain substances are specifically allowed.
Everyone seems to say it's been going on forever. Why such a big issue now all of a sudden? Is this something that has only come to light due to ultra-high-def cameras and super-slow-mo that can actually measure spin rate and other minute details that was impossible to observe previously?
I'm a little biased as I'm a Cleveland fan and a fan of Trevor Bauer.
But Bauer got pissed at MLB for not letting him use super glue to close a cut he got before is start in the 2016 World Series but had no enforcement of this cheating. After that season he basically said "I'm going to use foreign substances to increase my spin rate and win a Cy Young." Then he did.
Now MLB has been called out so they have to do something. The whole league is pretty mismanaged from a rules and cheating perspective though.
But Bauer got pissed at MLB for not letting him use super glue to close a cut he got before is start in the 2016 World Series but had no enforcement of this cheating. After that season he basically said "I'm going to use foreign substances to increase my spin rate and win a Cy Young." Then he did.
Now MLB has been called out so they have to do something. The whole league is pretty mismanaged from a rules and cheating perspective though.
That's part of it (also a Cleveland fan here).
Bauer suspected Houston of using substances to get a higher spin rate. He had worked out at Driveline in Seattle and knew what was possible and what wasn't without illegal substances.
In his typical fashion, he accused Houston in the media and on Twitter. MLB didn't do anything about it. So naturally Bauer joined the club.
Bauer suspected Houston of using substances to get a higher spin rate. He had worked out at Driveline in Seattle and knew what was possible and what wasn't without illegal substances.
In his typical fashion, he accused Houston in the media and on Twitter. MLB didn't do anything about it. So naturally Bauer joined the club.
> Why such a big issue now all of a sudden?
Statcast [0] + Tradition
In the past ten years major technological developments came online. Players for the first time could measure spin rate of baseballs and see how it affected pitches.
Players like Trevor Bauer started experimenting out at Driveline Baseball in Seattle. The innovations diffused and here we are.
Now tradition. Major League pitchers have a long tradition of using substances to help them pitch better. A much to young heymijo watched the 1989 movie Major League and was introduced to Eddie Harris, the crafty veteran pitcher. A scene from the movie:
< "What’s that shit on your chest?"
"Crisco. Bardol. Vagisil. Any one of them will give you another two to three inches drop on your curveball."
> Of course, if the umps are watching me close, I just put a little jalapeño inside my nose and get it running, and if I need to load the ball up a little, just wipe my nose.
Pitchers have been putting stuff on the ball for ages. It has been loosely enforced if at all up until now. Some substances are even legal, like the rosin bag.
So technology + tradition combined and we reached an inflection point.
Oh yeah, there's a new substance that came out called Spider-tack, which is taking sticky to the next level.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statcast
Statcast [0] + Tradition
In the past ten years major technological developments came online. Players for the first time could measure spin rate of baseballs and see how it affected pitches.
Players like Trevor Bauer started experimenting out at Driveline Baseball in Seattle. The innovations diffused and here we are.
Now tradition. Major League pitchers have a long tradition of using substances to help them pitch better. A much to young heymijo watched the 1989 movie Major League and was introduced to Eddie Harris, the crafty veteran pitcher. A scene from the movie:
< "What’s that shit on your chest?"
"Crisco. Bardol. Vagisil. Any one of them will give you another two to three inches drop on your curveball."
> Of course, if the umps are watching me close, I just put a little jalapeño inside my nose and get it running, and if I need to load the ball up a little, just wipe my nose.
Pitchers have been putting stuff on the ball for ages. It has been loosely enforced if at all up until now. Some substances are even legal, like the rosin bag.
So technology + tradition combined and we reached an inflection point.
Oh yeah, there's a new substance that came out called Spider-tack, which is taking sticky to the next level.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statcast
Pretty much. The Statcast system that made spin rate data widely available was introduced in 2015. It took a couple of years after that for the realizations that higher spin rate = lower batting average and that sticky stuff is the easiest way to increase spin rate to percolate throughout the league.
I read the whole article, and they say it's because pitchers are striking out batters more often now because that increase in spin puts balls just out of the hittable range.
But beyond that, Baseball has been struggling in the last 5 or so years with a "boring" factor, and they are trying to change the game to address it.
To be frank, I think the biggest think hurting baseball is the cable blackouts. My father is a baseball maniac, and blackouts make it harder for him to watch the games he'd like to.
But beyond that, Baseball has been struggling in the last 5 or so years with a "boring" factor, and they are trying to change the game to address it.
To be frank, I think the biggest think hurting baseball is the cable blackouts. My father is a baseball maniac, and blackouts make it harder for him to watch the games he'd like to.
I love baseball and don’t find it boring. Although my son is in peak little league mode and his excitement about all things baseball is infectious.
Agree 100% about the blackouts. I’m not paying $100/mo for cable, and it’s absurd that my kid can’t watch a baseball game without having dad around to vpn out of market.
Agree 100% about the blackouts. I’m not paying $100/mo for cable, and it’s absurd that my kid can’t watch a baseball game without having dad around to vpn out of market.
Pitchers have an incentive for a better grip on the ball. It's in a batter's best interest as well — getting hit by a 95MPH pitch is going to hurt.
Adding a substance to the ball to increase spin rate via the aerodynamics — in return, increase horizontal and/or vertical movement — has now become almost a standard practice. That's what this issue is largely about.
Obviously, a team can't challenge another pitcher saying "check his /jersey/cap/forearm/inside of belt/!" because their pitcher is probably doing it too.
Adding a substance to the ball to increase spin rate via the aerodynamics — in return, increase horizontal and/or vertical movement — has now become almost a standard practice. That's what this issue is largely about.
Obviously, a team can't challenge another pitcher saying "check his /jersey/cap/forearm/inside of belt/!" because their pitcher is probably doing it too.
> Obviously, a team can't challenge another pitcher saying "check his /jersey/cap/forearm/inside of belt/!" because their pitcher is probably doing it too.
It is trivially easy to agree within the team on a game you're going to play clean, and challenge the other side during that game.
It is trivially easy to agree within the team on a game you're going to play clean, and challenge the other side during that game.
True, but that will likely cost your best hitter a fastball to the ribs.
> Why such a big issue now all of a sudden
Part of the issue is that the league wide batting average is at a historical low, and almost every game is turning into a pitching duel to see who gives up the least amount of home runs. This leads to some incredibly dull games, which isnt what the MLB wants.
Part of the issue is that the league wide batting average is at a historical low, and almost every game is turning into a pitching duel to see who gives up the least amount of home runs. This leads to some incredibly dull games, which isnt what the MLB wants.
This is a huge problem for baseball.
Baseball used to be the most popular sport in America. Now it's third. I don't think soccer will ever actually catch it, but that's mostly because MLS is run by the same sort of stubborn people as MLB.
Nobody ever really remembers teams with great pitching. They don't really give them names. There's no "Murderer's Row" of pitching in MLB history. There's a reason for that.
A home run is something everyone instantly understands. New to the game, old to the game, whatever, it gets people excited. So does hitting and base running. People want to see people hit the ball and score runs in baseball. A walk-off homerun to end a big game is remembered forever by everyone who watched it.
Pitching, by contrast, is usually only fully appreciated in retrospect. You don't throw a no-hitter until the last out is counted. Same for a perfect game. A perfect game in the second inning is just a second inning. A home run in the second inning is something that gets everyone out of their seats. The final strikeout of a big game is remembered by fans of the winning team. but it's a footnote for everyone else.
So for entertainment's sake, if you're going to either have great pitching or great hitting, you damned well should be focused as an executive to make sure that the hitting is as good as it can get, because the people who care the most about your sport at this point are boomers, stat nerds, and bookies.
My 86 year old grandmother who passed 3 years ago? She LOVED to watch baseball with my grandfather. Likewise, my other grandfather would watch whenever he could except for when a John Wayne movie was on. My parents couldn't care less, and in my social group of about 40 boys, only two watched the sport on a regular basis.
Baseball used to be the most popular sport in America. Now it's third. I don't think soccer will ever actually catch it, but that's mostly because MLS is run by the same sort of stubborn people as MLB.
Nobody ever really remembers teams with great pitching. They don't really give them names. There's no "Murderer's Row" of pitching in MLB history. There's a reason for that.
A home run is something everyone instantly understands. New to the game, old to the game, whatever, it gets people excited. So does hitting and base running. People want to see people hit the ball and score runs in baseball. A walk-off homerun to end a big game is remembered forever by everyone who watched it.
Pitching, by contrast, is usually only fully appreciated in retrospect. You don't throw a no-hitter until the last out is counted. Same for a perfect game. A perfect game in the second inning is just a second inning. A home run in the second inning is something that gets everyone out of their seats. The final strikeout of a big game is remembered by fans of the winning team. but it's a footnote for everyone else.
So for entertainment's sake, if you're going to either have great pitching or great hitting, you damned well should be focused as an executive to make sure that the hitting is as good as it can get, because the people who care the most about your sport at this point are boomers, stat nerds, and bookies.
My 86 year old grandmother who passed 3 years ago? She LOVED to watch baseball with my grandfather. Likewise, my other grandfather would watch whenever he could except for when a John Wayne movie was on. My parents couldn't care less, and in my social group of about 40 boys, only two watched the sport on a regular basis.
How is ball tampering allowed in baseball? This is out right cheating in cricket. Lot of teams attempt it and when caught suspensions are the norm
Why don't they just legalize using these sticky substances and even out the field? It doesn't seem to detract from the game much.
The game is already a snoozefest. If nobody can hit the balls, it will be even worse.
Checking gloves, gear, even by a doctor and banning cheaters is the way.
But article states that this type of cheat is in the history of the sport.
Checking gloves, gear, even by a doctor and banning cheaters is the way.
But article states that this type of cheat is in the history of the sport.
You can just move the mound back like 6 inches. Not like the MLB does anything meaningful against cheaters like the Astros.
Also MLB has been doctoring the ball for years and not telling the players. Juicing and de-juicing, raising the stitching.
Manfred can do so many simple things to make the game more interesting that...isn't this. Pitch clock is the most straight forward.
Also MLB has been doctoring the ball for years and not telling the players. Juicing and de-juicing, raising the stitching.
Manfred can do so many simple things to make the game more interesting that...isn't this. Pitch clock is the most straight forward.
It is letting pitchers throw pitches that are on the edge of what they can control. Also, when pitchers throw balls the same way they have for years, changing the way balls move in ways the pitchers haven't been able to account for. The result is that the number of batters hit by pitches has gone up, and some of them have gotten seriously hurt (orbital bone fractures, broken noses, etc).
> From the dugout, players and coaches shake their heads as they listen to pitchers’ deliveries
But their own pitchers are doing it too.
But their own pitchers are doing it too.
Why can't the MLB just admit defeat on this issue and amend the rules to allow the use of these substances?
When it comes to performance enhancing drugs (PEDs), I understand the ethical argument against it; PEDs have negative long term health consequences and clean pitchers shouldn't feel compelled to use PEDs to compete. But these sticky pitching substances don't seem to have that problem as far as I can tell.
When it comes to performance enhancing drugs (PEDs), I understand the ethical argument against it; PEDs have negative long term health consequences and clean pitchers shouldn't feel compelled to use PEDs to compete. But these sticky pitching substances don't seem to have that problem as far as I can tell.
Because it results in dramatically less hitting which is bad for the sport.
This is probably heresy, but maybe they could make the sport more exciting by issuing corked bats for more homeruns. And then maybe they could rename the sport to Blernsball...
Make the distance between the pitching mound and home plate inversely correlated to the prior weeks batting average (with the goal of trying to reach .33)
> bad for the sport
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
Better pitchers make the game substantially more boring. Strikeouts are at an all time high. People don't want to watch that.
I’m not a big sports fan, but to me, directly modifying the sports equipment during a competition to break the basic rules of the game is way more blatantly egregious than consuming substances that improve physical performance.
The claim isn't that it's okay to break the rules, it's that this rule should be changed. We need rules against PEDs to prevent (or at least mitigate) an arms race with serious health consequences; we only need rules against pitch doctoring if it's bad for the game and the rules are enforceable.
Bit of a microcosm of the way our society seem to be going.
[deleted]
If they're all cheating is it really cheating?
Still cheating but less scandalous in my opinion. If it came out that one team had an edge over another team it's one thing, but if both teams are cheating in the same way, it's harder to prove that either got "cheated out of" anything.
If batters are allowed sticky stuff to get a better grip on the bat then why wouldn't pitchers be allowed sticky stuff to get a better grip on the ball?
adolph(1)
Give the pitchers standard issue "throwing" gloves, have them surrendered/inspected after each innings
I think players would revolt. Leather gloves require "break in" to be comfortable; without a break-in period they are very uncomfortable and could even cause blisters. And a glove broken in for one person isn't necessarily broken in for somebody else.
If some sports allow magnesium to be used on hands (e.g. gymnasts on the high bar), then shouldn't sticky substances be simply allowed?
If some sports allow players to tackle the player with the ball (e.g. football, rugby), then shouldn't basketball?
No, because it's easily detectable from a distance.
Magnesium isn't allowed because it is not detectable as, in fact, it's very detectable. Your analogy is flawed ... let it go.
I would be fine if baseball finished dying
Ditto football
Wouldn't be too heartbroken if basketball and soccer followed
For the professional sports, they're all just so toxic for society
We don't need any more help, thx
Ditto football
Wouldn't be too heartbroken if basketball and soccer followed
For the professional sports, they're all just so toxic for society
We don't need any more help, thx
Do you think that modern sports are worse than chariot racing in the Byzantine Empire? Since fans aren’t slaughtering each other by the thousands, I don’t think it will be too bad.
If this is the case, it seems kind of easy (if not a tad invasive) to solve. You have the MLB watch over the balls in a secure area, and when the pitcher and catcher go out, you check their pockets to see if they have anything like Pelican Grip Dip. If they do, they can't go out.
Checking pockets isn’t enough. Pitchers have been hiding the substances on their hats or gloves or other sneaky places for years. It’s not like they just bring a jar of spider tack out there with them
Why not do a face, hat, glove pat down? Boxers do it.
Are you going to do a chemical test of their hair and body surface too?
To be totally clear, you could do this, but it's going to start an arms race of trickery.
To be totally clear, you could do this, but it's going to start an arms race of trickery.
The ancient Greeks had olympic athletes compete nude as a check against cheating.
You’re escalating just a bit from “hey, you got any gunk on your hat, head, mitt?”
Watch an MMA match. It takes all of five seconds for a ref to run their hands over the competitors head, hands, etc.
Which is certainly better than… nothing.
Watch an MMA match. It takes all of five seconds for a ref to run their hands over the competitors head, hands, etc.
Which is certainly better than… nothing.
It is better than nothing. But you've also got people going on and off the field frequently and a strong incentive to cheat. If your five second check is circumvented it's no longer that much better than nothing.
Even easier would be to check the ball after a pitch.
The biggest scandals in sports, far and away, are:
1) the pervasive and increasing economic alignment with gambling
2) the economics of college football and basketball
In terms of this story, as a former high school/college pitcher, to me this doesn't even warrant a meh. The analogies to Armstrong and steroid era are farsical. Tommy John surgery is more concerning.
1) the pervasive and increasing economic alignment with gambling
2) the economics of college football and basketball
In terms of this story, as a former high school/college pitcher, to me this doesn't even warrant a meh. The analogies to Armstrong and steroid era are farsical. Tommy John surgery is more concerning.
The first one, sure. But the second only applies to American sports.
True, and that's generally true with baseball as well.
It’s not a scandal, pitchers have been affecting the coefficient of friction of their balls for over a century.
People should be able to do whatever they want to thaw ball / air interface that helps them perform at their peak.
TL;DR they are using compounds that violate the current MLB rules.
Where does it end? Can a pitcher take a jar of peanut butter out to the mound with him to smear on the ball?
I find all professional sports to be an incredible waste of time and resources.
The only benefit of professional sports is the enrichment of people who are already rich, the owners. Some athletes make money, but the vast majority don't really benefit, especially when considering the damage their bodies absorb.
Some people would argue that professional sports has entertainment value, but knowing the that ultimate goal is the enrichment of the owners at the expense of the health and well being of the players is not something I find entertaining.
The only benefit of professional sports is the enrichment of people who are already rich, the owners. Some athletes make money, but the vast majority don't really benefit, especially when considering the damage their bodies absorb.
Some people would argue that professional sports has entertainment value, but knowing the that ultimate goal is the enrichment of the owners at the expense of the health and well being of the players is not something I find entertaining.
Out of curiosity, can you list some of your leisure activities that involve other people...? Taken to extremes, most leisure activities have adverse effects on "professionals".
The kind of men particularly predisposed to aggression need an outlet that is not war or tearing each other apart. That is not a waste of time and resources. Probably does a lot of good to unite nations by also providing the same kind of outlet
Sports fans would speak to the shared experiences and bonding moments with both strangers and loved-ones that comes from sports fandom. The cost-benefit analysis for them and you differs greatly, although many would agree with you that franchises exist to make owners money (cue all the Oakland A’s fans)
> especially when considering the damage their bodies absorb
Not all sports are football. Most professional sports don't damage bodies significantly.
Not all sports are football. Most professional sports don't damage bodies significantly.
Repetitive forceful motions cause damage too, such as pitching in baseball. Headers in soccer also cause CTE.
Extreme sports and mountain climbing are also known to cause damage. But ultimately, people are free to choose how they wish to live their lives.
I agree. Only change I would in US is to remove sports from academic schools. Especially ones known to damage the brain.
The median MLB salary is just under $4 million, and the NBA is about $3 million. The players choose to play sports professional, which was often a dream from childhood. There's probably quite a few bored office workers who wish they could have played in the pros. Sports also employs people working at arenas and in the media, and boosts sales near the arena.
There was a story a couple years ago about a professional tennis player, Noah Rubin, who was ranked in the top 200, and how it was difficult for a player outside the top 100 to make a living traveling around playing at smaller tournaments without being able to afford a coach or trainer. Noah started playing when he was 4 years old. It was his dream to play in grand slams and be successful, like hundreds of other top 1000 men and women's tennis players. There is no rich owner taking advantage of them.
The WNBA doesn't make the kind of money to enrich owners, but the professional women do want to play basketball for their careers. It's a bit lazy to just dismiss all of professional sports as enriching a few owners and top athletes.
There was a story a couple years ago about a professional tennis player, Noah Rubin, who was ranked in the top 200, and how it was difficult for a player outside the top 100 to make a living traveling around playing at smaller tournaments without being able to afford a coach or trainer. Noah started playing when he was 4 years old. It was his dream to play in grand slams and be successful, like hundreds of other top 1000 men and women's tennis players. There is no rich owner taking advantage of them.
The WNBA doesn't make the kind of money to enrich owners, but the professional women do want to play basketball for their careers. It's a bit lazy to just dismiss all of professional sports as enriching a few owners and top athletes.
You could say the same for all of the chubster computer programmers with bad backs and heart problems.
How many people in the last decade sacrificed their youth and health to make it easier to sell some garbage mobile app or to help Amazon sell toothpaste?
How many people in the last decade sacrificed their youth and health to make it easier to sell some garbage mobile app or to help Amazon sell toothpaste?
The problem with hitting in MLB has nothing to do with pitch doctoring (which has been going on since the beginning of baseball, and was far worse in the 1970s and 1980s than it is today). It's because the batters are obsessed with launch angles, hit velocity and home runs.
Hits per game has been dropping for 13-14 years now, as the culture in baseball has shifted toward swinging for home runs at all costs. Naturally strikeouts per game are up accordingly as batters go for broke.
That's why hits are down but home runs are not. Home runs are still at steroid era peak levels, just like they have been for years now. This fact is intentionally being ignored in the discussion about pitch doctoring supposedly being the big cause of why batters suck at hitting now. They also need a convenient scapegoat for the new baseball MLB introduced this year and the way it has benefited pitchers more than hitters.
They're trying to turn MLB into the NBA. The NBA no longer plays defense, they stand around chucking three pointers; it has become the WWE of basketball, it's a joke league (and ratings keep plunging properly, because it's not fun to watch all-star game scoring where nobody plays defense). MLB now openly advocates in favor of changing the game to juice ratings and scoring artificially (by eg restricting the ability to play defense, among other things). They allowed the steroid era to happen in the pursuit of ratings, they're going to screw the game up all over again.
Hits per game has been dropping for 13-14 years now, as the culture in baseball has shifted toward swinging for home runs at all costs. Naturally strikeouts per game are up accordingly as batters go for broke.
That's why hits are down but home runs are not. Home runs are still at steroid era peak levels, just like they have been for years now. This fact is intentionally being ignored in the discussion about pitch doctoring supposedly being the big cause of why batters suck at hitting now. They also need a convenient scapegoat for the new baseball MLB introduced this year and the way it has benefited pitchers more than hitters.
They're trying to turn MLB into the NBA. The NBA no longer plays defense, they stand around chucking three pointers; it has become the WWE of basketball, it's a joke league (and ratings keep plunging properly, because it's not fun to watch all-star game scoring where nobody plays defense). MLB now openly advocates in favor of changing the game to juice ratings and scoring artificially (by eg restricting the ability to play defense, among other things). They allowed the steroid era to happen in the pursuit of ratings, they're going to screw the game up all over again.
This is incorrect. All else equal, a higher spin rate produces fewer hits than even a higher pitch speed. Banned substances can increase spin rate by ~500 rpm with little effort, meaning everyone doing it allows fewer hits.
You’re correct that there are a lot of other factors at play, but foreign substance is proven to reduce hits, and increase players hit by balls (highest it’s ever been)
You’re correct that there are a lot of other factors at play, but foreign substance is proven to reduce hits, and increase players hit by balls (highest it’s ever been)
Right. "It's the pitch stupid." Every team looks for advantages. Under-inflating a ball, puttings some grease on the ball, juicing to be bigger/faster/stronger. Of all of these, we're supposed to feel that the pitch is the biggest scandal? Oh please.
From the article,
> "80 to 90%” of pitchers are using it in some capacity"
From wikipedia,
> "Several players have suggested that drug use is rampant in baseball. David Wells stated that "25 to 40 percent of all Major Leaguers are juiced"."
Juicing seems like a more severe issue to me, but I guess the article is saying that pitching substances are a "bigger" scandal because it's so prevalent.
> "80 to 90%” of pitchers are using it in some capacity"
From wikipedia,
> "Several players have suggested that drug use is rampant in baseball. David Wells stated that "25 to 40 percent of all Major Leaguers are juiced"."
Juicing seems like a more severe issue to me, but I guess the article is saying that pitching substances are a "bigger" scandal because it's so prevalent.
This is his first year on the Dodgers and we have been watching pretty much every game. Bauer’s last four outings he has been much less dominant than earlier in the season. This comes after some of his game balls confiscated for analysis by MLB.
We finally checked the stats today and sure enough his rpm’s are down again the last few starts.
So the threat of enforcement does seem to be having an impact, at least in the short term.
I’m glad the league is cracking down because after the Astros sign stealing scandal (of which the Dodgers were arguably one of the biggest victims) the last thing I want is for our team to now be the face of a new cheating scandal