Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?
87 comments
SMBs don’t hire any employees, including software engineers, unless that employee can generate more revenue than they cost to employ. The higher compensation of software engineers means that they won’t be hired for smaller tasks.
Generally, SMBs don’t hire software engineers at all unless they’re in the business of making and selling software. Smaller software engineering tasks are contracted out to vendors and custom software shops that may already have similar products that can be adapted to a customer’s needs rather than developed from the ground up. The high software engineer salaries force a sort of efficiency on the market.
Smaller startups that want to develop software might offer engineers some ownership of the company, or additional perks like remote work and shorter hours to attract them to jobs that don’t pay the highest software engineering salaries.
There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed. These are not talked about often on HN but they exist.
Generally, SMBs don’t hire software engineers at all unless they’re in the business of making and selling software. Smaller software engineering tasks are contracted out to vendors and custom software shops that may already have similar products that can be adapted to a customer’s needs rather than developed from the ground up. The high software engineer salaries force a sort of efficiency on the market.
Smaller startups that want to develop software might offer engineers some ownership of the company, or additional perks like remote work and shorter hours to attract them to jobs that don’t pay the highest software engineering salaries.
There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed. These are not talked about often on HN but they exist.
> There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed.
My first job as a SWE was for a small startup in NJ (just outside of NY) for ~$50k/year. This was not even an area with a low cost of living.
The unfortunate truth is an employer will pay you the minimum they think you think you're worth if, and only if, that's above what they think you're worth.
Within 6 months I told my boss I wanted a performance review and I got a 50% raise (to ~80k) because my performance well exceeded the perceived performance at my original hiring.
Now that I'm more "senior", something else that I've realized is that hiring an engineer who has been around the block and has a wide breath of knowledge is a much larger force multiplier than hiring 20 engineers and having them scramble. When I look for my next gig some time in the future I'm not going to be pitching myself as solving just their technical challenges anymore. The business case will be "Not only have I solved the problems you're having currently, I've also failed at solving them. I know all the footguns of team leadership and technical stacks. If you want to spend your money efficiently and converge on a solution to your business and organizational problems I can help you get there... for a modest fee"
That is how you make a business person think you're worth your salt because, despite it not being true, "anyone can code" is a common sentiment among that crowd.
My first job as a SWE was for a small startup in NJ (just outside of NY) for ~$50k/year. This was not even an area with a low cost of living.
The unfortunate truth is an employer will pay you the minimum they think you think you're worth if, and only if, that's above what they think you're worth.
Within 6 months I told my boss I wanted a performance review and I got a 50% raise (to ~80k) because my performance well exceeded the perceived performance at my original hiring.
Now that I'm more "senior", something else that I've realized is that hiring an engineer who has been around the block and has a wide breath of knowledge is a much larger force multiplier than hiring 20 engineers and having them scramble. When I look for my next gig some time in the future I'm not going to be pitching myself as solving just their technical challenges anymore. The business case will be "Not only have I solved the problems you're having currently, I've also failed at solving them. I know all the footguns of team leadership and technical stacks. If you want to spend your money efficiently and converge on a solution to your business and organizational problems I can help you get there... for a modest fee"
That is how you make a business person think you're worth your salt because, despite it not being true, "anyone can code" is a common sentiment among that crowd.
> There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed. These are not talked about often on HN but they exist.
I was one of these for many years in the late 2000s when I first started using Hacker News. One of the things that I think people in the Hacker News bubble seem to miss is that programming/software engineering is a passion for some and just a paycheck to others. There are a lot of fields where a job being just a paycheck to you aren't looked down on - a lot of people in the Hacker News bubble look down on that. My work at that company was just a paycheck while I gained skills on the weekends and eventually started my own consulting company. I credit reading Hacker News for showing me that the best way to start a company is, well, to just do it.
I worked for a company that needed a developer to keep their pile of ETL logic and server code working as the data formats they acquired from various government agencies and the requirements of their downstream customers changed. I joined right out of college with a salary during my first three months of $48k with the understanding that it would be increased after the first three months - it eventually settled at $56k for the first year. It was a small company that fluctuated between 3 and 8 full-time employees, not counting management. I made a respectable living during the recession in 2008 because my work still made the company money - I was the only full time programmer there at the time. My ending salary with the company in the mid 2010s was $72,000 in a large south-eastern city where that was above the average salary in the area - in line with CoL.
The flipside of making money in a recession when there are still paying clients is when the business loses out on a major contract to a competitor when there's no recession on. Despite riding out the entire recession (with only a small cut to salary due to a four day work-week instead of a five day work-week), the loss of a major contract by my employer meant that the previously stable funding source that allowed me to continue working dried up there. Less than a month after that I was let go, and had to move cross-country to find stable employment as a software contractor. I eventually joined that company full time and my consulting activities have slowed down significantly.
More to the question of this topic - after they let me go, they had two people at the company - the owner, who was the president of the company, and the owner's wife, who was the business manager. The president of the company, who was previously my boss, started maintaining the things I worked on, and offered me some 1099 remote consulting work when occasionally overwhelmed as a way to pick up some of the slack. That's how his small business handled having a software engineer when needed - occasional contracts to fill the hole.
I was one of these for many years in the late 2000s when I first started using Hacker News. One of the things that I think people in the Hacker News bubble seem to miss is that programming/software engineering is a passion for some and just a paycheck to others. There are a lot of fields where a job being just a paycheck to you aren't looked down on - a lot of people in the Hacker News bubble look down on that. My work at that company was just a paycheck while I gained skills on the weekends and eventually started my own consulting company. I credit reading Hacker News for showing me that the best way to start a company is, well, to just do it.
I worked for a company that needed a developer to keep their pile of ETL logic and server code working as the data formats they acquired from various government agencies and the requirements of their downstream customers changed. I joined right out of college with a salary during my first three months of $48k with the understanding that it would be increased after the first three months - it eventually settled at $56k for the first year. It was a small company that fluctuated between 3 and 8 full-time employees, not counting management. I made a respectable living during the recession in 2008 because my work still made the company money - I was the only full time programmer there at the time. My ending salary with the company in the mid 2010s was $72,000 in a large south-eastern city where that was above the average salary in the area - in line with CoL.
The flipside of making money in a recession when there are still paying clients is when the business loses out on a major contract to a competitor when there's no recession on. Despite riding out the entire recession (with only a small cut to salary due to a four day work-week instead of a five day work-week), the loss of a major contract by my employer meant that the previously stable funding source that allowed me to continue working dried up there. Less than a month after that I was let go, and had to move cross-country to find stable employment as a software contractor. I eventually joined that company full time and my consulting activities have slowed down significantly.
More to the question of this topic - after they let me go, they had two people at the company - the owner, who was the president of the company, and the owner's wife, who was the business manager. The president of the company, who was previously my boss, started maintaining the things I worked on, and offered me some 1099 remote consulting work when occasionally overwhelmed as a way to pick up some of the slack. That's how his small business handled having a software engineer when needed - occasional contracts to fill the hole.
Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do.
The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. Bay Area, New York, Seattle, Boston) and therefore high compensation.
But there are many, many competent people in the US who aren't willing to move to one of these major cities, who can't pass the FAANG hiring bar, or don't want to.
Those people may be willing to accept a lower-paying job because that suits them better.
It might also be worth considering if the role you're thinking of as "software engineer" is actually a "software engineer". Does an SMB really need a "software engineer"? Maybe what they need is a "software developer", which on average receives a lower salary.
The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. Bay Area, New York, Seattle, Boston) and therefore high compensation.
But there are many, many competent people in the US who aren't willing to move to one of these major cities, who can't pass the FAANG hiring bar, or don't want to.
Those people may be willing to accept a lower-paying job because that suits them better.
It might also be worth considering if the role you're thinking of as "software engineer" is actually a "software engineer". Does an SMB really need a "software engineer"? Maybe what they need is a "software developer", which on average receives a lower salary.
Regarding the competent people who don’t want to, I’ve met many. I remember meeting a guy a dozen years ago who did a lot with C++ and a Beowulf cluster for a very large research hospital and even then his salary was much lower than it could’ve been, so I asked him why he wasn’t at a FAANG (before the acronym existed), and he told me it was because in his current job he could own all his outside work, whereas Google would’ve made him sign his ideas away. I’ve also worked with a very bright developer at a large investment bank and although both of us left long ago, he eventually set up a company doing the most mundane IT consulting (printers and networks for law firms, etc) so that he could focus on his side passions of teaching classes at a local HackerSpace and soddering his creations together there for no money whatsoever. I’ve met a lot of people who are more brilliant or better engineers than a lot of Googlers I know who simply do not desire the job, even if it meant getting paid many times more. Some very talented FAANG people I know wish they were starting their own thing but just don’t know what else to do. Nothing wrong with working a job till inspiration strikes you, though!
Declaring/Designating and protecting personal IP when joining BigTechCo is standard practice.
As long as you are not using tools and internal IP on your project and it is not a competing product it is typically fine.
This idea that BigTech is hostile to side projects is misplaced. They would actually like it if you succeed because its a PR and branding win for their engineers.
As long as you are not using tools and internal IP on your project and it is not a competing product it is typically fine.
This idea that BigTech is hostile to side projects is misplaced. They would actually like it if you succeed because its a PR and branding win for their engineers.
Some of big tech are so big and dabble in so many things, that it's not unlikely that some part of your project competes or relates to some part of employer's business, enough to cause IP problems.
The process, at least as Google, is to disclose your project to a committee and ask for permission to do it in advance - if they accept they give you IP release waiver and tell you what parts you can and cannot do in your project, for them to not consider it an invasion into Google's interests. My experience with this process was largely negative. Bunch of jerks erring on the employer's side. I can totally see why people with strong interest in their personal projects may not be willing to participate in this circus.
The process, at least as Google, is to disclose your project to a committee and ask for permission to do it in advance - if they accept they give you IP release waiver and tell you what parts you can and cannot do in your project, for them to not consider it an invasion into Google's interests. My experience with this process was largely negative. Bunch of jerks erring on the employer's side. I can totally see why people with strong interest in their personal projects may not be willing to participate in this circus.
With one company I worked for, that was completely impractical. The company thought they were doing the right thing by asking me to declare whatever outside works I might be producing, and they would be 100% fine with that so long as it didn't compete with the company's products.
In practice, that meant every time I was reading some mailing list and would like to reply to something with a small patch, I would first need to contact my company, add that mailing list's project to the set of outside works, write a bit about the project and get approval. It would turn a 10 minute action into a multi-day administrative action involving managers - completely impractical.
The company just didn't have a way to model someone whose idea of outside works was to contribute to countless random projects in small ways every evening, without knowing in advance what those would be.
I tried to talk with the company about this problem, and they weren't interested enough to solve it, and didn't see it as a real problem. They thought I was making waves about something unimportant, and perhaps I was misjudging its importance. Perhaps it would all be fine. But I didn't want to accidentally produce things that the company later decided it had a claim on.
This was a significant factor in my relief when I was made redundant, as I felt free to finally pursue my interests instead of holding back. I didn't know how much it meant to me until then, but the relief made it obvious that this one issue had been seriously weighing me down throughout the employment, and that I should be more mindful of it in future.
If the company had found a good solution to this problem early on, I expect I would have been very much happier working there. Clarity is all that was needed, really.
That was before GitHub. I'm guessing companies are a lot more used to their employees doing small outside contributions like that now. I am still wary of doing so without a clear line. Fortunately, all my recent engagements have contracts that limit what the company is interested in, and exist in a context which recognises and even encourages that outside works will take place.
In practice, that meant every time I was reading some mailing list and would like to reply to something with a small patch, I would first need to contact my company, add that mailing list's project to the set of outside works, write a bit about the project and get approval. It would turn a 10 minute action into a multi-day administrative action involving managers - completely impractical.
The company just didn't have a way to model someone whose idea of outside works was to contribute to countless random projects in small ways every evening, without knowing in advance what those would be.
I tried to talk with the company about this problem, and they weren't interested enough to solve it, and didn't see it as a real problem. They thought I was making waves about something unimportant, and perhaps I was misjudging its importance. Perhaps it would all be fine. But I didn't want to accidentally produce things that the company later decided it had a claim on.
This was a significant factor in my relief when I was made redundant, as I felt free to finally pursue my interests instead of holding back. I didn't know how much it meant to me until then, but the relief made it obvious that this one issue had been seriously weighing me down throughout the employment, and that I should be more mindful of it in future.
If the company had found a good solution to this problem early on, I expect I would have been very much happier working there. Clarity is all that was needed, really.
That was before GitHub. I'm guessing companies are a lot more used to their employees doing small outside contributions like that now. I am still wary of doing so without a clear line. Fortunately, all my recent engagements have contracts that limit what the company is interested in, and exist in a context which recognises and even encourages that outside works will take place.
> I'm guessing companies are a lot more used to their employees doing small outside contributions like that now
I've seen a similar contract, but with an explicit exception for open source work.
I've seen a similar contract, but with an explicit exception for open source work.
I don't think there's a consistent definition of "software engineer." At one place where I worked, you automatically got the "engineer" title if you had a bachelors degree. This was also true for the distinction between "designer" and "engineer" in the hardware engineering disciplines, and "manufacturing engineer" in the plant.
> But there are many, many competent people in the US who aren't willing to move to one of these major cities, who can't pass the FAANG hiring bar, or don't want to.
The flip-side to this is that, if you're in the middle of nowhere (and demand on-prem), it's harder to attract junior developers for the things that they typically cut their teeth on to move up. This often makes maintenance activities, smaller design and development work, and adding a few extra coders to a project more expensive than they otherwise would be because senior talent is more expensive.
The flip-side to this is that, if you're in the middle of nowhere (and demand on-prem), it's harder to attract junior developers for the things that they typically cut their teeth on to move up. This often makes maintenance activities, smaller design and development work, and adding a few extra coders to a project more expensive than they otherwise would be because senior talent is more expensive.
When I started, "software engineer" wasn't a job title. We did already have job-title inflation, though; when a programmer was promoted, they became an "assistant systems analyst", then a "systems analyst". The proper definition of a systems analyst at that time didn't even include programming computers!
So what's an engineer? Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licenced to undertake specified design and construction work, and required to take regular training and re-licensing. It's like a physician; it's not some particular level of training or experience. Or skill - there are rotten physicians and excelent ones. But if they're not licensed, they're not a physician.
Can't we go back to calling programmers programmers?
So what's an engineer? Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licenced to undertake specified design and construction work, and required to take regular training and re-licensing. It's like a physician; it's not some particular level of training or experience. Or skill - there are rotten physicians and excelent ones. But if they're not licensed, they're not a physician.
Can't we go back to calling programmers programmers?
>Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licensed to undertake specified design and construction work, and required to take regular training and re-licensing
Software engineering got its roots from electrical engineering and this isn't true for most electrical engineers. You only need to be licensed in a few subsets of electrical engineering (i.e. power production and distribution). All other areas don't require a license.
There is a difference between software engineers and programmers. I had it explained to me like this. If you spend more than 50% of your time programming, you can't call yourself a software engineer. A software engineer is supposed to spend most of their time designing and architecting a solution, testing assumptions, documenting the design process and conducting design reviews. This process is slow and tedious but if done correctly will save you a lot of headaches in the future.
Software engineering got its roots from electrical engineering and this isn't true for most electrical engineers. You only need to be licensed in a few subsets of electrical engineering (i.e. power production and distribution). All other areas don't require a license.
There is a difference between software engineers and programmers. I had it explained to me like this. If you spend more than 50% of your time programming, you can't call yourself a software engineer. A software engineer is supposed to spend most of their time designing and architecting a solution, testing assumptions, documenting the design process and conducting design reviews. This process is slow and tedious but if done correctly will save you a lot of headaches in the future.
We can’t go back unfortunately. Software is getting more complex both technically and legally. Professional licensing is coming in the next decade or two.
I'm totally cool with professional licensing for software engineers, and I agree it's coming (but "the next decade" seems optimistic - I've been expecting it for 30 years).
My gas-fitter is professionally-licensed. My electrician is professionally-licensed. My accountant is professionally-licensed. They have to be. But I'd hire a developer with a stellar record over one with a professional licence, unless the post was Compliance Officer or something.
I just don't expect such a licensed "software engineer" to be doing hands-dirty software development; they'll be managing the show. Hands-dirty developers need to know stuff you don't learn on training courses.
My gas-fitter is professionally-licensed. My electrician is professionally-licensed. My accountant is professionally-licensed. They have to be. But I'd hire a developer with a stellar record over one with a professional licence, unless the post was Compliance Officer or something.
I just don't expect such a licensed "software engineer" to be doing hands-dirty software development; they'll be managing the show. Hands-dirty developers need to know stuff you don't learn on training courses.
how bigger is the salary of system necromant or code shaman than software engineer
ok, ok - I know that's not the point, but I wish IT had consistent title names and roles
ok, ok - I know that's not the point, but I wish IT had consistent title names and roles
I have worked for a few of these. Some things they do:
* have smaller staffs
* hire younger/entry/intern level staff
* outsource to cheap freelancers
* outsource to agencies (onshore, nearshore, offshore)
* buy saas solutions and glue things together with tools like Zapier
* use no-code tools like Excel rather than building software
* skimp on software process (no staging, no version control, etc)
I can echo most of these. The small business I started my career with had a small staff, hired me directly out of college (I started there two weeks after I had my degree), moved all of their infrastructure into the cloud so they could scale on demand, did a lot of work with Excel, didn't use version control until they got bit my a major outage due to the owner developing in production and not having a backup, and finally implemented a staging process for changes after that.
This was all before the rise of SAAS, but I can imagine they're using more of that now.
This was all before the rise of SAAS, but I can imagine they're using more of that now.
I would say in Brisbane, Australia the average pay for a Mid level is a $110k AUD package, with seniors being $130k AUD up. Keep in mind Australian listed salaries are often BASE. On top of this you need to factor an additional 9.5% superannuation (A kind of mandatory retirement savings) that must be paid. Project labour charge out rates start at $150 AUD an hour for a junior. Seniors can cost over $300 an hour. We are a high labour cost market.
Firstly most companies don't roll their own software, a lot of stuff is done with off the shelf products, and maybe some outsourced customization (especially in the web space). Custom software is typically only developed if 1.) there is a pressing need and 2.) there is nothing that can already fit the bill and 3.) it will result in a large enough business benefit to cover the cost.
Now there are things SMBs that do create software do to get better efficiency. Firstly teams tend to be smaller, often with a push for everyone to be "Full Stack". Originally this was Backend + Frontend, but this is often including DevOps, QA and more. Teams will often require everyone to work in every skill area at least at a junior level. Secondly there is a push in a lot of organisations for more then 38 hours of work a week in anywhere that is billing out staff.
Firstly most companies don't roll their own software, a lot of stuff is done with off the shelf products, and maybe some outsourced customization (especially in the web space). Custom software is typically only developed if 1.) there is a pressing need and 2.) there is nothing that can already fit the bill and 3.) it will result in a large enough business benefit to cover the cost.
Now there are things SMBs that do create software do to get better efficiency. Firstly teams tend to be smaller, often with a push for everyone to be "Full Stack". Originally this was Backend + Frontend, but this is often including DevOps, QA and more. Teams will often require everyone to work in every skill area at least at a junior level. Secondly there is a push in a lot of organisations for more then 38 hours of work a week in anywhere that is billing out staff.
My wife owns a ~$1M business in retail. She's never hired a software engineer and primarily relies on SaaS, though I research/setup everything for her.
SaaS solutions these days are pretty robust. Some examples of what she uses:
- Shopify + a number of add-ons to run the store, including Shopify running on iPads + bluetooth scanners for the POS.
- WordPress + Gravity Forms to run the jobs site with an automated job application flow.
- WordPress + Gravity Forms for custom order flows.
- Quickbooks
- Nest for remote security system
- Shopify email marketing (used to be Constant Contact)
- Google Workspace for email/docs
- Misc. apps like TSheets for employees clocking in-out.
- Facebook/Instagram for marketing, including weekly Facebook Live shows they started during the pandemic and continued because people love them.
They have thousands of products so inputting/maintaining inventory, adding images and unique descriptions, etc. is still cumbersome (e.g. getting CSVs from vendors).
SaaS solutions these days are pretty robust. Some examples of what she uses:
- Shopify + a number of add-ons to run the store, including Shopify running on iPads + bluetooth scanners for the POS.
- WordPress + Gravity Forms to run the jobs site with an automated job application flow.
- WordPress + Gravity Forms for custom order flows.
- Quickbooks
- Nest for remote security system
- Shopify email marketing (used to be Constant Contact)
- Google Workspace for email/docs
- Misc. apps like TSheets for employees clocking in-out.
- Facebook/Instagram for marketing, including weekly Facebook Live shows they started during the pandemic and continued because people love them.
They have thousands of products so inputting/maintaining inventory, adding images and unique descriptions, etc. is still cumbersome (e.g. getting CSVs from vendors).
As a freelancer who has worked for several SMB's, I feel qualified to answer. For the most part, they don't. They may hire someone like me for a project, for a few months, and then perhaps an agreement to do a few hours/month of maintenance afterwards. But they don't normally hire a full-time, permanent employee who's a software engineer.
In cases where they do, it is because that is fundamental to their business, i.e. they're a software company or something similar.
There are also SMB companies which provide IT services for other SMB's, which also bill on an hourly basis. It essentially is several SMB's each paying part of the bill, and that IT services company works for several of them.
I should note that, for small companies, something similar often happens for accountants, payroll, and other HR functions; they contract with a company that does this kind of thing for several small businesses.
In cases where they do, it is because that is fundamental to their business, i.e. they're a software company or something similar.
There are also SMB companies which provide IT services for other SMB's, which also bill on an hourly basis. It essentially is several SMB's each paying part of the bill, and that IT services company works for several of them.
I should note that, for small companies, something similar often happens for accountants, payroll, and other HR functions; they contract with a company that does this kind of thing for several small businesses.
A few thoughts:
1) SMBs don't necessarily hire that many software engineers. Hell, even tons of large companies barely do. I work at a multinational (100 countries) which mostly buys off the shelf software, and uses basic tools like Excel to run a ridiculous amount of internal business processes.
2) Non-software companies tend to hire software companies, not software engineers. Due to the economies of scale that comes with companies producing and selling (standardised enterprise) software, salaries of software devs aren't that big of a problem necessarily. A company like Trello for example built a collaboration tool with 10s of engineers that has something like 100 million users. The numbers aren't exact, but the order of magnitude is.
Beyond that, you'd be surprised how large the nominal income differences are for US/EU companies, individuals, households etc. The extra money doesn't translate into much better quality of life in the US (due to the crappier working hours, the no legal holiday rights, crappy parental leave, no cheap universal healthcare or tertiary education, poor public transport, no walkable cities, inequality, more energy-intensive economy blablabla), but purely on a nominal dollar basis the US really outearns Europe by quite a large margin.
1) SMBs don't necessarily hire that many software engineers. Hell, even tons of large companies barely do. I work at a multinational (100 countries) which mostly buys off the shelf software, and uses basic tools like Excel to run a ridiculous amount of internal business processes.
2) Non-software companies tend to hire software companies, not software engineers. Due to the economies of scale that comes with companies producing and selling (standardised enterprise) software, salaries of software devs aren't that big of a problem necessarily. A company like Trello for example built a collaboration tool with 10s of engineers that has something like 100 million users. The numbers aren't exact, but the order of magnitude is.
Beyond that, you'd be surprised how large the nominal income differences are for US/EU companies, individuals, households etc. The extra money doesn't translate into much better quality of life in the US (due to the crappier working hours, the no legal holiday rights, crappy parental leave, no cheap universal healthcare or tertiary education, poor public transport, no walkable cities, inequality, more energy-intensive economy blablabla), but purely on a nominal dollar basis the US really outearns Europe by quite a large margin.
The anti-American scree at the end here is hilariously inaccurate. The "inequality" has a kernel of truth- but that's why having a high salary in the US is amazing.
I'm an average developer at an unglamorous company you've never heard of. I have unlimited vacation and lots of company holidays. Parental leave is full pay for 5 or 6 months, my monthly healthcare costs are the same as a single hour of wage if I was paid hourly, which thankfully I'm on salary because I really only work about 30 hours a week. My city isn't very walkable overall, but my high salary means I can live in the area that is. Oh, and despite buying everything that I want I still save so much that I'll be retired at age 40.
And again- I'm not special or unique or lucky or privileged. I went to a public school in a poor area, got a job by applying to a public listing with no connections, and haven't had any lucky IPO or investment win, just plain boring salary at a plain boring company writing CRUD applications.
Western Europe gives a better quality of life than America if you're low income. America gives better quality of life if you're high income. Eastern Europe is mostly lower quality regardless of occupation.
I'm an average developer at an unglamorous company you've never heard of. I have unlimited vacation and lots of company holidays. Parental leave is full pay for 5 or 6 months, my monthly healthcare costs are the same as a single hour of wage if I was paid hourly, which thankfully I'm on salary because I really only work about 30 hours a week. My city isn't very walkable overall, but my high salary means I can live in the area that is. Oh, and despite buying everything that I want I still save so much that I'll be retired at age 40.
And again- I'm not special or unique or lucky or privileged. I went to a public school in a poor area, got a job by applying to a public listing with no connections, and haven't had any lucky IPO or investment win, just plain boring salary at a plain boring company writing CRUD applications.
Western Europe gives a better quality of life than America if you're low income. America gives better quality of life if you're high income. Eastern Europe is mostly lower quality regardless of occupation.
I don't know how you define Eastern Europe, but I've had a bunch of friends who moved back to Poland after working in Google in the Bay Area, claiming that the quality of life is better here.
Ditto myself - I spend winters in SF, because of the weather and amazing people and the community there, but in most other aspects Warsaw wins. City cleanliness, restaurants & coffee places (sic), access to schools, transportation, and healthcare. SF by comparison has awesome nature, clean air and brilliant community. Plus access to one-day shipping of a ton of stuff unavailable in Europe.
As for lower-income people, I'm curious what metrics you used. With the main ones that come to my mind (education, healthcare, work benefits, unemployed benefits) I think Poland and Europe win. But lower income people can't afford cars and iPhones - so that's different.
Ditto myself - I spend winters in SF, because of the weather and amazing people and the community there, but in most other aspects Warsaw wins. City cleanliness, restaurants & coffee places (sic), access to schools, transportation, and healthcare. SF by comparison has awesome nature, clean air and brilliant community. Plus access to one-day shipping of a ton of stuff unavailable in Europe.
As for lower-income people, I'm curious what metrics you used. With the main ones that come to my mind (education, healthcare, work benefits, unemployed benefits) I think Poland and Europe win. But lower income people can't afford cars and iPhones - so that's different.
Pretty much everyone can afford a car these days. You're probably thinking of a new car.
Buying a car is only one part. You're probably true that pretty much anyone could buy a car, even if that's just an old Matiz. But also to maintain, insure and fuel it? No.
You would only get third party insurance, not full coverage. Then it will become much cheaper.
Yearly OC, as what it's called in Poland, is still about 50% of value of Matiz.
That is crazy. Seems you guys are being ripped off by the insurance companies!
The final bit of my post wasn't talking about software developers, but simply about the differences in income between the US and EU in general, and how they don't translate into as large differences in quality of life. It's quite obvious that software developers get way better deals in the US and tons of perks, no need to add your personal story because besides it being merely an anecdote, it completely misses the point you're responding to.
Defining quality of life can be hard and subjective but at a US BugTechCo you typically work 35-45hrs, have top shelf insurance, unlimited vacation (that people use and sometimes paid paid vacation where you get paid while you’re on vacation AND get paid to take one as a bonus) Also we have a ton of holidays (sup Juneteenth!) as for public transport the US is BIG but ya we should work on that, also more dense cities, I agree there.
Can also just buy a place in the EU once you’re rich from FAANG life… or with full remote go make the US salary there.
Can also just buy a place in the EU once you’re rich from FAANG life… or with full remote go make the US salary there.
Unlimited vacation?
Some tech companies offer "unlimited vacation" these days as the official vacation policy.
It's great if you feel you can actually take it, but most people don't.
It generally means there isn't a defined amount or minimum amount, and everyone knows if you actually take a lot of time off, your output will not look as good compared with your colleages.
The undertone of competing with colleages for recognition hasn't gone away after all. Even if you're not ambitious, you probably value job security, so you don't want to look like a slacker or low output person.
So in practice, at "unlimited vacation" companies people tend to take less vacation than they do at companies with a defined amount of vacation.
Local culture also ends up influencing what people do. I'm working for a company that has "unlimited vacation" and also a very international, fully remote workforce. What they have found is, even though the company policy is the same everywhere, people in the USA choose to take much less official vacation (up to about 2 weeks) than people in France (about 5 weeks). This is the individual's choice remember. Also the amount people have taken has reduced during the pandemic.
They are actually trying to get people to take more vacation, and have set a minimum amount to try to enforce this. My guess is people don't want to be seen as slacking during a time when alternative employment prospects are uncertain and keeping remote work is a priority.
It's great if you feel you can actually take it, but most people don't.
It generally means there isn't a defined amount or minimum amount, and everyone knows if you actually take a lot of time off, your output will not look as good compared with your colleages.
The undertone of competing with colleages for recognition hasn't gone away after all. Even if you're not ambitious, you probably value job security, so you don't want to look like a slacker or low output person.
So in practice, at "unlimited vacation" companies people tend to take less vacation than they do at companies with a defined amount of vacation.
Local culture also ends up influencing what people do. I'm working for a company that has "unlimited vacation" and also a very international, fully remote workforce. What they have found is, even though the company policy is the same everywhere, people in the USA choose to take much less official vacation (up to about 2 weeks) than people in France (about 5 weeks). This is the individual's choice remember. Also the amount people have taken has reduced during the pandemic.
They are actually trying to get people to take more vacation, and have set a minimum amount to try to enforce this. My guess is people don't want to be seen as slacking during a time when alternative employment prospects are uncertain and keeping remote work is a priority.
That's really interesting. I'm in the UK and the consensus is generally that the US doesn't give much holiday to staff and that Europe is more generous. I'd never heard of unlimited vacation before. Here the standard is 28 days plus the 8 or 9 public holidays, so about 36 days off per year. In Europe it's more, and often you must take them.
> the consensus is generally that the US doesn't give much holiday to staff and that Europe is more generous.
That's correct, the US has 0 legal holidays, everything is contractual. That typically means around 7-8 days and builds up with seniority.
It's pretty poor: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
But anything contractual for the most in-demand jobs (such as software engineers today), is way better than the minimum legal standard or the average contractual standard. From pay to insurance to holidays to things like housing, free food, sports and mental counseling.
The basic rule is that you're better off in a more unequal society when you're at the top, and better off in a more equal society when you're at the bottom. There's of course a limit to this logic.
Then if you take the software devs that tend to frequent HN, (the majority of devs at a FAANG firm will know of HN and visit it from some to time), you're looking at say the top quartile among software devs. It's quite clear that most software devs are better off in the US in many respects, and that their holiday perks can be way better than the average American or European. Plenty of great software companies in the US offer unlimited time off. Most people don't really use it though, it's more a cultural thing.
That's correct, the US has 0 legal holidays, everything is contractual. That typically means around 7-8 days and builds up with seniority.
It's pretty poor: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
But anything contractual for the most in-demand jobs (such as software engineers today), is way better than the minimum legal standard or the average contractual standard. From pay to insurance to holidays to things like housing, free food, sports and mental counseling.
The basic rule is that you're better off in a more unequal society when you're at the top, and better off in a more equal society when you're at the bottom. There's of course a limit to this logic.
Then if you take the software devs that tend to frequent HN, (the majority of devs at a FAANG firm will know of HN and visit it from some to time), you're looking at say the top quartile among software devs. It's quite clear that most software devs are better off in the US in many respects, and that their holiday perks can be way better than the average American or European. Plenty of great software companies in the US offer unlimited time off. Most people don't really use it though, it's more a cultural thing.
While this was much more true maybe 10 to 20 years ago, at least 28 days plus the approx 9 US public holidays is the minimum you should expect in a reasonable US SWE position. Many places offer better. Of course there isn’t the same level of legislative protection for holiday allowances as in the U.K. and there are some companies out there offering much less, but it’s increasingly rare in my experience.
I think working conditions relative to the USA have gotten significantly worse in the U.K. for a lot of professional roles over the past 20 years though - the pay offered in many U.K. SWE roles is often risible and the generally anaemic economy since the credit crunch arguably hasn’t helped.
I think working conditions relative to the USA have gotten significantly worse in the U.K. for a lot of professional roles over the past 20 years though - the pay offered in many U.K. SWE roles is often risible and the generally anaemic economy since the credit crunch arguably hasn’t helped.
I took 3 months off paid for parental leave and will have taken about 4 additional weeks this year and it has not hurt my performance reviews or career trajectory at all…
In some places, people may be wrong to worry about taking their unlimited vacation time how they would like to, but they do worry nonetheless.
At other places, more competitive perhaps, they may be right to evaluate that a dip in work output is noticed and nobody is taking into account the time off.
Anyway, without judging why, it appears to be a fact that at some places people take less time off when unlimited vacation policies are brought in.
At other places, more competitive perhaps, they may be right to evaluate that a dip in work output is noticed and nobody is taking into account the time off.
Anyway, without judging why, it appears to be a fact that at some places people take less time off when unlimited vacation policies are brought in.
Funny thing is that now US corporations are reaching out to hire developers in other countries as well.
Pay for devs in EU is going up as well because of that. Local software houses are loosing devs because of that. US based companies with VC money are showering devs with cash.
They don't do that to cut costs anymore but to just have developers.
Pay for devs in EU is going up as well because of that. Local software houses are loosing devs because of that. US based companies with VC money are showering devs with cash.
They don't do that to cut costs anymore but to just have developers.
my previous company has an entire branch in Ukraine. Less need to comply with EU labor laws but equally talented professionals
There is no need to comply with any EU labor laws if you hire developers as contractors or "one person company".
Company from US just gets an invoice directly from developer as this is B2B arrangement.
The rest is up to that developer if he wants to work 12 hours a day or else. There is also no real "legal way" that they could hire a dev as full time employee if they don't have entity in EU. So there is not much risk, well only that dev might suck, but that is different discussion.
Company from US just gets an invoice directly from developer as this is B2B arrangement.
The rest is up to that developer if he wants to work 12 hours a day or else. There is also no real "legal way" that they could hire a dev as full time employee if they don't have entity in EU. So there is not much risk, well only that dev might suck, but that is different discussion.
Haven't you noticed the rise of all these SaaS companies in recent years? That's because SMB can't afford software engineers (expensive or otherwise), let alone commit to developing complex software, so they simply goto mysaas.com and select a Plan.
In my experience, SMBs don't hire expensive software engineers.
Medium businesses use Excel and packaged software and consultants. Small businesses use Excel, cheap packages, open source and SaaS solutions. Basically their focus is on their business. To them computers and programs are an expense to be minimised.
Most small business owners I've met would rather buy a new car for themselves than update the office computer or software.
Medium businesses use Excel and packaged software and consultants. Small businesses use Excel, cheap packages, open source and SaaS solutions. Basically their focus is on their business. To them computers and programs are an expense to be minimised.
Most small business owners I've met would rather buy a new car for themselves than update the office computer or software.
> In my experience, SMBs don't hire expensive software engineers.
I've definitely seen that at the 'S' end of the scale.
Programmers who have been there for years, often with no formal education, the codebase looks like them. They tend to be stuck in those jobs.
I've definitely seen that at the 'S' end of the scale.
Programmers who have been there for years, often with no formal education, the codebase looks like them. They tend to be stuck in those jobs.
Do SMBs hire software engineers?
Software is the ultimate scaleable write once and run everywhere resource. An SMB just runs software already written.
The one exception is an SMB that specializes in writing software aka the startup and they usually have to hand out equity and/or pay reasonably well.
Software is the ultimate scaleable write once and run everywhere resource. An SMB just runs software already written.
The one exception is an SMB that specializes in writing software aka the startup and they usually have to hand out equity and/or pay reasonably well.
A ~250 people company is still medium sized, and a lot of those would have some (small) IT staff.
I suppose that depends on where you live. Some business-sizing is money-based, some is physical-size based, some is headcount-based.
In the EU the standard seems to be less than 250 headcount or less than 50 million revenue. But the states within the EU might have different rules.
In the EU the standard seems to be less than 250 headcount or less than 50 million revenue. But the states within the EU might have different rules.
Plenty SMBs are making physical products running software, have software supporting manufacturing, ... Plenty SMBs producing software are not "startups".
As an Australian working in tech, I can assure you software engineers don’t earn $30-$60k on average. Most people in teams I’ve worked with are on $100k+
You are correct, but the original post clearly used US dollars, but it's not clear you did. So for the context of this discussion I note that $100,000 Australian dollars is $75,000 US dollars at current exchange rates (and 100,000 USD is 132,000 Australian dollars).
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In the same town I have seen programmers doing similar work can have an 2x or 3x difference in pay. I’ve even seen some working w/o health insurance (turned down a job offer years ago over that) although the AHA helps with that.
Also the offshore devs are at a disadvantage because of distance, different time zones, language familiarity (not only for client comms but to read the docs), cultural familiarity, agency problems, etc. (I don’t like working for an outsourcer if it means I can’t tell the client the truth about why the project is late - the truth might be less bad than what the client imagines but it still could be bad for the relationship.)
The south Asian miracle comes from liberal application of management, more people, lots of documentation - it can work wonders but doesn’t always and adds overhead.
Also the offshore devs are at a disadvantage because of distance, different time zones, language familiarity (not only for client comms but to read the docs), cultural familiarity, agency problems, etc. (I don’t like working for an outsourcer if it means I can’t tell the client the truth about why the project is late - the truth might be less bad than what the client imagines but it still could be bad for the relationship.)
The south Asian miracle comes from liberal application of management, more people, lots of documentation - it can work wonders but doesn’t always and adds overhead.
Be careful with averages.
Sure FAANG engineers can commonly make $200-600k. But the last equivalent tech co I worked at had 3 per 1,000 applicant acceptance rate (sure they probably also had a lot of people applying without a prayer) I wonder what the median is?
Also beware of survivor bias. At successful, public TechCos equity compensation typically grows over time due to the rise in stock price (if it doesnt the pay quickly becomes more average and/or the company goes bust) You can easily have an L4 engineer making L6/7 money because their start date and RSU pricing was lucky. Absolutely nothing to do with their skill…
Sure FAANG engineers can commonly make $200-600k. But the last equivalent tech co I worked at had 3 per 1,000 applicant acceptance rate (sure they probably also had a lot of people applying without a prayer) I wonder what the median is?
Also beware of survivor bias. At successful, public TechCos equity compensation typically grows over time due to the rise in stock price (if it doesnt the pay quickly becomes more average and/or the company goes bust) You can easily have an L4 engineer making L6/7 money because their start date and RSU pricing was lucky. Absolutely nothing to do with their skill…
>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada.
How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?
How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?
In my experience, as an American expat working in the EU, these countries have an extremely low level of churn. In most cases the only way to get a raise is to be hired away. So most developers put up with the annual CoL raise of 3-5%. Instead of changing companies every 2 years with a $10k-50k bump you stay 10 years in one company and eventually get a $10k over that period.
I know most Americans feel its the strong worker protections in the EU that cause the pay stagnation. It's far more complex than that. SWEs can leave for another company whenever they want. In some cases there are deep structural issues* that can keep you at a company.
* One example, in France there is no upper limit on the caution for an apartment. It can be as high as 20k-50k€. If you need to rent a place and don't come from a rich family your employer can provide the caution. Now that your employer has solved your housing problem you feel a certain loyalty to them and the 10-20 year career starts.
I know most Americans feel its the strong worker protections in the EU that cause the pay stagnation. It's far more complex than that. SWEs can leave for another company whenever they want. In some cases there are deep structural issues* that can keep you at a company.
* One example, in France there is no upper limit on the caution for an apartment. It can be as high as 20k-50k€. If you need to rent a place and don't come from a rich family your employer can provide the caution. Now that your employer has solved your housing problem you feel a certain loyalty to them and the 10-20 year career starts.
That does not feel true to me in Poland. I'd say average is close to what's expressed here on HN, about 2 years in a job. More junior people switch more often, and more senior less often - but also can switch pretty fast if the job is not a good fit. I don't think worker rights play a role here, because I've never seen software engineer being fired for a purely performance reason.
>It can be as high as 20k-50k€.
Meanwhile in NYC they're knocking off few months rent and dropping the security deposits just to get people back there.
Meanwhile in NYC they're knocking off few months rent and dropping the security deposits just to get people back there.
A caution isn't a security deposit (that you pay as well) it's just attestation you have a healthy amount of savings; in lieu of a credit score. French eviction laws are strict and intentionally slow so it can take 6+ months for a removal order. Landlords want assurances you won't turn into a squatter, so having a longterm, secure job or rich family checks that box.
What is the caution for an appartment?
caution bancaire (fr) = Bank guarantee (en)
Like a security deposit.
Like a security deposit.
These numbers don't seem to be correct. I have around 5 years experience, living in Munich, immigrant, and I earn around 95K (USD). There is no indication that my salary is significantly above average amongst software developers with similar experience. Not a FAANG company, and I earned this money both at a startup and both at an established German company.
Munich is very expensive so you get appropriate money. Rural areas pull down the average a lot.
As a software engineer (not architect, senior, team lead or whatever) your salary is at the very top.
As a software engineer (not architect, senior, team lead or whatever) your salary is at the very top.
Its a struggle.
>graduates from the Universities of Toronto, British Columbia and Waterloo in 2015 and 2016 revealed 66 per cent of software engineering and 30 per cent of computer science students were leaving Canada for work after graduation.
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/business/2021/5/21/1_543849...
I wonder how accurate the quoted average salaries are for Canada though. The high end is what a junior developer with no work history can expect after graduating. Senior developers here regularly make 100k+.
>graduates from the Universities of Toronto, British Columbia and Waterloo in 2015 and 2016 revealed 66 per cent of software engineering and 30 per cent of computer science students were leaving Canada for work after graduation.
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/business/2021/5/21/1_543849...
I wonder how accurate the quoted average salaries are for Canada though. The high end is what a junior developer with no work history can expect after graduating. Senior developers here regularly make 100k+.
As a new grad down the border, you can make more than that.
They're not, the author's assumptions are out of date. $30k is what a mid-level software engineer at a major firm in India will make.
Many SMBs are wary of the cost of software development, and avoid it. The "magic of software," that you can just write a program and have it start printing money [0] for you, is in most cases a pipe dream. Instead, software is usually just like any other business activity, in that it could be a net asset or liability, often depending on how it affects other parts of the business. In addition, if you don't understand software development, you can't manage it, and it can eat you alive.
[0] either through sales or increased productivity if it's software for internal use
[0] either through sales or increased productivity if it's software for internal use
> it can eat you alive
Software development projects are incredibly risky. Estimating development costs is an unsolved problem. I've worked for major software company that cancelled a 5-year development project, employing >200 coders.
Government projects seem to be particularly prone to huge cost overruns; I suppose it's because there usually isn't any single stakeholder, because the specification was written by a committee, because the funding is provided by taxpayers who can't choose to withdraw funding, and because "events, dear boy" result in changes to the goals of the project.
I'm really talking about major projects; small projects can usually be cancelled with little harm.
Software development projects are incredibly risky. Estimating development costs is an unsolved problem. I've worked for major software company that cancelled a 5-year development project, employing >200 coders.
Government projects seem to be particularly prone to huge cost overruns; I suppose it's because there usually isn't any single stakeholder, because the specification was written by a committee, because the funding is provided by taxpayers who can't choose to withdraw funding, and because "events, dear boy" result in changes to the goals of the project.
I'm really talking about major projects; small projects can usually be cancelled with little harm.
Your average non-tech SMB will hire consultants as-needed or go with off the shelf products. Tech-focused companies (assuming they are startups) use VC money and stock options to try and compete for talent.
I work only with small businesses and they don't hire people. For example, I'm doing a custom project for $6K. It will take me a few days, but $6K is much less expensive than hiring a full-time person for $60K or $100K or $200K or whatever.
Also, there's really not too much software that a small business needs. Quickbooks. Excel. Salesforce/Zoho/whatever for the CRM. A website. What else does a small business need? When they have special needs, they just get someone like me.
It's not like every business is building a nuclear reactor and needs various monitors and alarms and stuff, whatever they even do with reactors, I don't know.
There's all kinds of outsourced tech support - phone or onsite. MSPs.
Everyone says to find a niche and fill it and that is how you can be successful, but everyone knows this, it is no secret, although so many people do, as if they are the only ones that know about it. But anyways, as a result, there is specialized software for everything imaginable. Damn difficult to find a niche that someone's not trying to exploit. Name an industry, a sub-industry, a sub-sub-industry, a sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-industry and there's specialized software for it.
Also, there's really not too much software that a small business needs. Quickbooks. Excel. Salesforce/Zoho/whatever for the CRM. A website. What else does a small business need? When they have special needs, they just get someone like me.
It's not like every business is building a nuclear reactor and needs various monitors and alarms and stuff, whatever they even do with reactors, I don't know.
There's all kinds of outsourced tech support - phone or onsite. MSPs.
Everyone says to find a niche and fill it and that is how you can be successful, but everyone knows this, it is no secret, although so many people do, as if they are the only ones that know about it. But anyways, as a result, there is specialized software for everything imaginable. Damn difficult to find a niche that someone's not trying to exploit. Name an industry, a sub-industry, a sub-sub-industry, a sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-industry and there's specialized software for it.
A lot of reasons, although a big one is probably the difference in profit margins between a FAANG and most of the rest of the economy. FAANGs have more money and a respect for the value good software engineers represent, so they pay more.
Does anybody have stats on the average or media profit for SMBs with software developers per country? I'm willing to bet the differences across countries have something to do with that.
Most other countries (and economic unions like the EU) don't have a homogeneous market, which is mostly due to language and history, as well as infrastructure. Companies in the US can optimally target ~300M clients in the US alone with a digital, English offering. that number just rises if you're willing to go to other English-speaking countries. If you were to compare that to a company in say Poland, Thailand or Argentina, either your product won't reach most people because the infrastructure simply isn't there, and the market can be quite small too.
Some countries are also notoriously difficult to start a business in due to worker's rights or burdensome procedures.
Other regions in the world couldn't do/haven't done enough to provide a stable, slightly homogeneous market, due to old rivalries, foreign influences (Afghanistan, Venezuela, Chile, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, Iran, Iraq, etc.) or just straight up negligence and arrogance.
Most other countries (and economic unions like the EU) don't have a homogeneous market, which is mostly due to language and history, as well as infrastructure. Companies in the US can optimally target ~300M clients in the US alone with a digital, English offering. that number just rises if you're willing to go to other English-speaking countries. If you were to compare that to a company in say Poland, Thailand or Argentina, either your product won't reach most people because the infrastructure simply isn't there, and the market can be quite small too.
Some countries are also notoriously difficult to start a business in due to worker's rights or burdensome procedures.
Other regions in the world couldn't do/haven't done enough to provide a stable, slightly homogeneous market, due to old rivalries, foreign influences (Afghanistan, Venezuela, Chile, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, Iran, Iraq, etc.) or just straight up negligence and arrogance.
SAAS exists to serve these companies pretty well. The cloud has helped even more with getting services procured for less than the granular cost of a full time employee.
It's a big paradigm jump to go from SMB with mostly externalized functions/SAAS to getting economies of scale with your own major IT department, assets, and facilities.
I've argued for years that MBAs need to be trained on the fundamentals of IT as much as finance and accounting: large enterprises are all IT organizations now, and good IT is a major major competitive advantage in the marketplace and a primary source of large economies of scale and efficiencies.
The biggest example of this is Amazon, which essentially competed in the retail space as a very well run software/IT corporation. And now they dominate not just online retail but the cloud.
It's a big paradigm jump to go from SMB with mostly externalized functions/SAAS to getting economies of scale with your own major IT department, assets, and facilities.
I've argued for years that MBAs need to be trained on the fundamentals of IT as much as finance and accounting: large enterprises are all IT organizations now, and good IT is a major major competitive advantage in the marketplace and a primary source of large economies of scale and efficiencies.
The biggest example of this is Amazon, which essentially competed in the retail space as a very well run software/IT corporation. And now they dominate not just online retail but the cloud.
I'd like to qualify my remarks on amazon: they are a very well run software/IT firm... from the persepective of competing IT execs in retail.
Really they have a CIO as a CEO, and that's the difference between them and their non-IT CEO competitors. Bezos tried to solve everything with software.
Really they have a CIO as a CEO, and that's the difference between them and their non-IT CEO competitors. Bezos tried to solve everything with software.
> And I don't believe American coders are twice the better than coders in the other countries.
Maybe not twice as better, but they are definitely better. How can they not be? America has been the immigration destination of choice, of the top coders from around the world for 3 decades.
Maybe not twice as better, but they are definitely better. How can they not be? America has been the immigration destination of choice, of the top coders from around the world for 3 decades.
> However, if we looked up average household income, these countries aren't too different from the US. And I don't believe American coders are twice the better than coders in the other countries.
This isn't very relevant. The USA is a much larger market. It's a little bit richer than most european countries, but the total number of customers to sell to is 4-8X larger, and you can also sell to much of the rest of the world when your product is in English.
The engineers who work for non-FAANG are not a part of those high salaries. The average is not a useful number, as many are either well below it or a well above it.
But yes, in short, it's hard to hire US engineers due to them being so well-paid. This is why SMBs offshore their engineers from the rest of the world.
This isn't very relevant. The USA is a much larger market. It's a little bit richer than most european countries, but the total number of customers to sell to is 4-8X larger, and you can also sell to much of the rest of the world when your product is in English.
The engineers who work for non-FAANG are not a part of those high salaries. The average is not a useful number, as many are either well below it or a well above it.
But yes, in short, it's hard to hire US engineers due to them being so well-paid. This is why SMBs offshore their engineers from the rest of the world.
What is SMB
"small and medium-sized business"
https://www.salesforce.com/blog/what-is-an-smb/
https://www.salesforce.com/blog/what-is-an-smb/
I was wondering too - thanks for asking
A dreadfully frustrating file transfer protocol.
I've contracted and consulted for several SMB's in the past, and none of them had software engineers on staff. They would get software built/maintained via an agency that used contractors, or less often, by managing their own contractors without an agency's help.
Several SMB's had employees that had a job title unrelated to SWE, but still did lots of SWE tasks. Often these would be one individual maintaining an intranet portal, or some UI program for data entry that sales staff used.
Several SMB's had employees that had a job title unrelated to SWE, but still did lots of SWE tasks. Often these would be one individual maintaining an intranet portal, or some UI program for data entry that sales staff used.
I can't imagine any software dev, working for 30k in Canada.
That's close to minimum wage in most provinces, even poverty level in many cities.
That's close to minimum wage in most provinces, even poverty level in many cities.
It beats shoveling shit in Saskatchewan or dealing with any customer in a retail shop (remember those?).
Like at the end of Office Space?
Desk jobs are fine, but can also be mind sapping horror shows. And who feels justified, working for 1/2 or 1/3rd what most peers are making?
Desk jobs are fine, but can also be mind sapping horror shows. And who feels justified, working for 1/2 or 1/3rd what most peers are making?
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I’m perplexed by the opposite. Why do SWE salaries stay so low on average in developed countries outside the US? (Or maybe they don’t? Or maybe it’s not an apples to apples comparison?)
However, if we looked up average household income, these countries aren't too different from the US. And I don't believe American coders are twice the better than coders in the other countries.
I can understand that FAAG pull up the average salaries and they can easily afford it. My question is how do SMBs in the US hire engineers under this type of fierce salary competition?