Why wild foxes led you to treasure in Skyrim(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Why wild foxes led you to treasure in Skyrim
https://twitter.com/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336
229 comments
No idea why you are so condescending. Maybe he doesn't have a blog and he's just using the platform where his following is.
Fwiw, I prefer chain of tweets like this to blog posts. It forces the author to compress as much information as possible into every paragraph and split up their thoughts.
Fwiw, I prefer chain of tweets like this to blog posts. It forces the author to compress as much information as possible into every paragraph and split up their thoughts.
To each their own, but I feel like the discoverability of the 'whole story' seriously suffers. Any time I try to follow a Twitter thread I can usually find 2/3 of the posts pretty easily while the rest tend to be buried somewhere in the memes and pointless banter.
A blog post can be equally "to the point" as a Twitter post, your SEO might suffer but I'd imagine 99% of bloggers really don't care. And FWIW, anyone can setup a WordPress in just a few minutes assuming you use a *.wordpress.com, to name just one of many free blogging platforms.
A blog post can be equally "to the point" as a Twitter post, your SEO might suffer but I'd imagine 99% of bloggers really don't care. And FWIW, anyone can setup a WordPress in just a few minutes assuming you use a *.wordpress.com, to name just one of many free blogging platforms.
That's funny. I find HN far more annoying because of conversations like this. Instead of having good technical conversations it's almost always people critiquing things like the font that someone's using on their site, and for some insane reason it's voted up to the top. And here I am contributing to the problem by extending this stupid thread further.
I had to scroll down ~75% of this page, passing what seemed like many dozens of posts all saying the same useless shit about the format and not talking at all about the content.
And that got me to the next top post, which... is someone just unrolling it.
Thankfully, soon after, someone asks a legitimate question about the content. Nearly at the bottom.
The twitter thread on the other hand is concise and easy to scroll through. A couple of memes because someone's having fun telling their story seems relatively benign compared to the average HN comments section drivel.
I had to scroll down ~75% of this page, passing what seemed like many dozens of posts all saying the same useless shit about the format and not talking at all about the content.
And that got me to the next top post, which... is someone just unrolling it.
Thankfully, soon after, someone asks a legitimate question about the content. Nearly at the bottom.
The twitter thread on the other hand is concise and easy to scroll through. A couple of memes because someone's having fun telling their story seems relatively benign compared to the average HN comments section drivel.
No idea if you know this or not, but I use the thread collapse button judiciously to skip these long sidethreads (after reading the first few subcomments...)
Side note: I used to think I was down voting when I was collapsing the thread and I felt REALLY bad for doing it.
Note to Newbs: you can't dont vote until you hit 500 "points", and then an upside down arrow appears underneath the "up vote" arrow.
Note to Newbs: you can't dont vote until you hit 500 "points", and then an upside down arrow appears underneath the "up vote" arrow.
Thank you, I had the same idea about collapsing threads. This is really helpful!
Yeah, and normally I don't bother commenting, I just downvote and move on, but given that the comments section was already (in my mind) a disaster and the irony of the parent post I made an exception.
>That's funny. I find HN far more annoying because of conversations like this.
I appreciate the critiques, saves me the wasted time going to the twitter thread and then being annoyed in the same manner.
I appreciate the critiques, saves me the wasted time going to the twitter thread and then being annoyed in the same manner.
> good technical conversations [...] critiquing things like the font that someone's using on their site
Critiquing the font is a technical conversation to a front-end designer :)
Critiquing the font is a technical conversation to a front-end designer :)
As far as I can tell, HN isn't designed or intended for "good technical conversations", nor "on-topic conversations". It's intended for "interesting conversations in general" (or some variant) based on the guidelines, behavior of the moderator(s?), and content.
I don't necessarily like this kind of bent, but that's the way that it is. If you want consistent technical conversations, you should check out Lobste.rs.
I don't necessarily like this kind of bent, but that's the way that it is. If you want consistent technical conversations, you should check out Lobste.rs.
I wonder if HN should offer two sections: Opinion and Insight.
You decide where to post, but others can disagree through reports.
If someone answers a question with an insightful comment, the thread is moved over.
Yeah, but that is where their friends, followers, audience, comfort is.
Its like saying 'I wish he hadn't told they story down the pub, the pub is a terrible place to tell stories as it is too noisy and I find it hard to follow with everything else going on'. But hey, they were down the pub telling stories, that is where it happened and that is where they were happy to do it. They might not have wanted to sit on a stage at a conference or record a video for you.
By all means take their story and retell it like journalist and bloggers have done for years, but don't complain about someone's medium, just be glad they shared the story at all.
Its like saying 'I wish he hadn't told they story down the pub, the pub is a terrible place to tell stories as it is too noisy and I find it hard to follow with everything else going on'. But hey, they were down the pub telling stories, that is where it happened and that is where they were happy to do it. They might not have wanted to sit on a stage at a conference or record a video for you.
By all means take their story and retell it like journalist and bloggers have done for years, but don't complain about someone's medium, just be glad they shared the story at all.
> Its like saying 'I wish he hadn't told they story down the pub, the pub is a terrible place to tell stories as it is too noisy and I find it hard to follow with everything else going on'.
More like 'I wish he hadn't told the story at the pub in small snippets over 4-6 drinks'
Twitter, unlike pubs, has intentional systems in place to interrupt medium to long-form communication. It was designed to be a bad medium for telling stories, so chaining a dozen tweets is a frustrating experience for both the author and the reader.
It's obvious why people still insist on using Twitter for telling stories: Twitter is a massively popular website, and the author will lose some percentage of readership if they link to an external blog. Ideally, Twitter would recognize that this is now a major use case and would add UI to support long-form communication. In the meantime, it'd be nice if people shared Twitter chains via threadreaderapp or authors used screenshots of the Notes app. Using a medium designed for telling stories would be even better.
More like 'I wish he hadn't told the story at the pub in small snippets over 4-6 drinks'
Twitter, unlike pubs, has intentional systems in place to interrupt medium to long-form communication. It was designed to be a bad medium for telling stories, so chaining a dozen tweets is a frustrating experience for both the author and the reader.
It's obvious why people still insist on using Twitter for telling stories: Twitter is a massively popular website, and the author will lose some percentage of readership if they link to an external blog. Ideally, Twitter would recognize that this is now a major use case and would add UI to support long-form communication. In the meantime, it'd be nice if people shared Twitter chains via threadreaderapp or authors used screenshots of the Notes app. Using a medium designed for telling stories would be even better.
Screenshots of text are inaccessible to assistive technologies without alt text. Twitter's alt text limit is 1000 characters.
But, again, if you're also annoyed that social story telling IRL happens with interruptions and digressions and background noise (and perhaps even four to six drinks!) then you are really asking for something other than what it is.
But, again, if you're also annoyed that social story telling IRL happens with interruptions and digressions and background noise (and perhaps even four to six drinks!) then you are really asking for something other than what it is.
> But, again, if you're also annoyed that social story telling IRL happens with interruptions and digressions and background noise
Really, this pub/Twitter comparison doesn't work. Yes, interruptions happen IRL, but they aren't systematically happening every other sentence. Also, you can use body language or talk louder to ensure you're understood IRL. Internet communication doesn't have the same luxury.
Disruption while consuming information in the browser is a different animal compared to person-to-person contact.
Really, this pub/Twitter comparison doesn't work. Yes, interruptions happen IRL, but they aren't systematically happening every other sentence. Also, you can use body language or talk louder to ensure you're understood IRL. Internet communication doesn't have the same luxury.
Disruption while consuming information in the browser is a different animal compared to person-to-person contact.
>Yes, interruptions happen IRL, but they aren't systematically happening every other sentence.
No, you usually have to go see Shakespeare for that.
No, you usually have to go see Shakespeare for that.
> Yeah, but that is where their friends, followers, audience, comfort is.
I just link to a better format from my twitter when I want to tell a longer story and it works great. I find writing longer stories in a string of tweets even more annoying than trying to read them.
I just link to a better format from my twitter when I want to tell a longer story and it works great. I find writing longer stories in a string of tweets even more annoying than trying to read them.
oauea(1)
The pub is a great place to tell stories though, so your analogy is an appropriate action in an appropriate place. This is like staging a play at a pub - great gimmick once in a while, certainly not a bad thing, but it just isn't practical to do a full stage production at an average pub. The lighting isn't there, the stage isn't big enough and the patrons are busy eating and drinking. It would be better to go to a theatre.
Similarly, this fellow is telling an interesting anecdote. But what we see here is a man searching for a paragraph while living in the desert of a sentence.
Similarly, this fellow is telling an interesting anecdote. But what we see here is a man searching for a paragraph while living in the desert of a sentence.
[deleted]
Sure, but would you actually create a new blog just to tell a story? I would feel pretentious, like my story is so good that I need to create a new blog for it. No, I would just use what's available to me.
Every blog started with “just” a story
Well if all you ever intend to tell is the one story then I concede, use whatever medium is familiar.
It's funny, almost like I think everyone should have a website.
It's funny, almost like I think everyone should have a website.
I never enjoyed reading anything on Twitter.
That sounds more like a content problem, not a formatting issue
To me it is both. The UI and UX makes for terrible content, perfect for drama, but hard for clear exchange.
My opinion of course. Those who enjoy the twitter conversations, go for it.
My opinion of course. Those who enjoy the twitter conversations, go for it.
The content is shaped by the medium it is presented in.
> .. buried somewhere in the memes and pointless banter.
This doesn't really make much sense. How are you getting lost in a single top-to-bottom thread? Memes are as obstructive as in blog post and banter.. well unless you're clicking into possible individual tweet replies they are just... not present at all.
This doesn't really make much sense. How are you getting lost in a single top-to-bottom thread? Memes are as obstructive as in blog post and banter.. well unless you're clicking into possible individual tweet replies they are just... not present at all.
It’s not a single top-to-bottom thread. Twitter shows the first two posts from the thread and then abruptly cuts to infinite scrolling of suggested third-party content.
There's a button "see full thread".
…which is a trick that just prompts you to sign up for Twitter.
I just tried it logged out and I did not get any prompt.
Screen recording: https://imgur.com/a/hjiNrfE
Fair enough, that kind of sucks (I tried it on my laptop).
I honestly wonder if this is just due to different people getting different UIs. I just click the “see full thread” button on the last visible post of the thread, and I’m taken to the full thread.
This button forces you to login if you aren’t logged in. Inconvenient for us dinosaurs without Twitter accounts.
Not too mention, my ADD usually takes over, and half way through I am all of a sudden looking at cat memes.
I, not having a twitter account, literally can't navigate through the tweets to read them.
What GP said doesn't seem condescending.
What GP said doesn't seem condescending.
I too am without a Twitter account. I am using Chrome on a laptop and had 0 difficulty reading this thread. What specifically is your issue?
(This is a direct question, not sarcasm)
(This is a direct question, not sarcasm)
Using Edge without any extensions, I also can't see the thread without logging in. Only the first two tweets.
But I can see everything using Firefox (with lots of extensions). So not sure if it's browser or extension dependent. Annoying either way.
But I can see everything using Firefox (with lots of extensions). So not sure if it's browser or extension dependent. Annoying either way.
I think this is hitting it. I do have ad-blockers extensions on, so that could be what's helping in this case. Also other people pointed out that it sucks on mobile (which I can confirm is an issue).
Was just curious since I (weirdly) only ever look at twitter in a browser
Was just curious since I (weirdly) only ever look at twitter in a browser
A modal that pops up on any action taken that prompts me to loging, where dismissing it navigates me back to where I was before opening it.
This might be a mobile-only issue, but when clicking the post to see the rest of the thread, a full screen modal pops up forcing a sign-in. Twitter now requires a phone number to create an account, meaning that to read the whole thread I need to give Twitter my mobile number which feels a little weird.
For now, it looks like blocking all cookies on Twitter solves this problem.
> but I guess that's too 1999 for the author
This is incredibly condescending.
This is incredibly condescending.
If you’re made out of paper tissue
Twitter blocks the page with a pop-up that can't be closed, so a blog post would be a huge improvement.
Yes. I’m literally unable to read it without logging in to Twitter.
I don’t get this. There is no reason for anyone to have a Twitter account. It is awfully arrogant of Twitter to assume that anyone would want to sign up for an account just to read their users’ posts.
Is this sarcasm? This is their entire business model and how they get paid. I don't see it as any more arrogant than having to pay for a paper newspaper, digital article, or attending a conference
It is also awfully arrogant for stores to assume anyone would want to give them money for the things they are offering.
In what browser? I tried Chrome, Edge, and Firefox on Windows, and Chrome and Firefox on Android, all without being logged in, all without issue. I was able to view the full thread in each of those 5 situations.
I also tried Internet Explorer 11, but that genuinely froze my entire computer in its attempt to force me to load the page in Edge. I blame that more on IE than Twitter though.
I also tried Internet Explorer 11, but that genuinely froze my entire computer in its attempt to force me to load the page in Edge. I blame that more on IE than Twitter though.
Depends on the platform. Medium does the same.
I think it makes a big difference if you have a twitter account or not. Without one navigating through the thread is much harder, on the edge of being a dark pattern, and you can't use unrolling bots.
There is a website called Nitter provides a clean front end to Twitter: https://nitter.net/ and mirrors at https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances
The domain name in Twitter URLs can be replaced with that of Nitter or its mirrors to view the same tweet and threads using the Nitter front end.
The domain name in Twitter URLs can be replaced with that of Nitter or its mirrors to view the same tweet and threads using the Nitter front end.
I wouldn't say that a modal popup that sends you back to the first tweet if you dismiss it is "on the edge" of being a dark pattern.
It's a hard login wall.
It's a hard login wall.
> It forces the author to compress as much information as possible into every paragraph and split up their thoughts.
But it doesn't. GP's summary fits in a tweet.
The author just split his text whenever he ran out of characters. He didn't compress any information.
But it doesn't. GP's summary fits in a tweet.
The author just split his text whenever he ran out of characters. He didn't compress any information.
> The author just split his text whenever he ran out of characters.
I didn't get that feeling. If he truly did that the tweets would end in the middle of a sentence.
I also don't think the summary covered all of the interesting things in this story. No, I think the tweets told it in a good way, split up in bite-sized chunks.
I didn't get that feeling. If he truly did that the tweets would end in the middle of a sentence.
I also don't think the summary covered all of the interesting things in this story. No, I think the tweets told it in a good way, split up in bite-sized chunks.
It's a sad world if we have all this technology and yet have to contend with either Twitter blogposting or a blog post with ads, 1.600 extra words and 50Mb of scripts you don't need.
I understand the lack of a blog, but even many blogs of late I have seen have adopted the frequent "meme interlude" style that I find ... unprofessional.
Okay, so I'm a snob.
I do have to laugh though when I open the HN comments and the top comment is not about the content of the link at all but is some orthogonal gripe.
Okay, so I'm a snob.
I do have to laugh though when I open the HN comments and the top comment is not about the content of the link at all but is some orthogonal gripe.
You can't even read a thread on Twitter without working around their constant badgering for you to sign up.
The web interface is absolutely horrendous on desktop and on my phone.
The web interface is absolutely horrendous on desktop and on my phone.
I didn't bother reading it because Twitter wanted me to sign in. I came here for the synopsis.
Same. Ridiculous.
Level of perceived versus implied condesension is a function of cultural communication style. People in some countries just talk like that.
I think I'm considered condescending even among my cultural peers. I am autistic though.
If you can make an infinite tweet chain then compressing information cannot be an argument since it isn't something necessary. And if you cannot, you may potentially be unable to provide all the information you want or worse needed for the topic at hand. In any case a blog post isn't required to be big in size with very condensed text.
It’s literally unreadable to me.
Part 1
Part 2
“Show this thread”
Spam
Spam
Spam
if you don't have a twitter account the thread is actually impossible to read FWIW.
I opened the thread in incognito both on desktop and mobile and could read the whole thing. I'm wondering if there's some kind of A/B testing going.
i deleted my account two months ago so it might be that. They accidentally still think I have an account to log into.
I'M HELPING! - cried the bug.
I'M HELPING! - cried the bug.
Agree about Twitter not being suitable for this format, but this Q&A summary takes all the charm out of the story told there.
I opened this on mobile and you either have to log in or open the tweet in the app to read the entire thread (twitter login wall).
I was going to do neither things.
I was going to do neither things.
Btw here is the thread without loginwall and in blog format:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1428008043556622336.html
I opened it in mobile (Safari) and read the chain fine without having to log in
Such is the nature of AB tests I guess.
I an currently on twitters shit list: if I click on anything, it opens the install-app block screen
I an currently on twitters shit list: if I click on anything, it opens the install-app block screen
I like the Q&A summary.
1. It answers the clickbait like title question and in that way saved me a click.
2. It’s very clear, concise, easy to read and understand.
1. It answers the clickbait like title question and in that way saved me a click.
2. It’s very clear, concise, easy to read and understand.
Please, spare us. Every single time a Twitter link gets posted here there's somebody like you who just wants to complain. We all know how you feel at this point; if it bothers you that much, don't click twitter links.
This is a cool and fun story. Just let it be that.
This is a cool and fun story. Just let it be that.
Twitter won't allow me to read the thread, I have to create an account. A blog post would be better.
I'm able to see it without being signed in, but here you go: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1428008043556622336.html
Twitter seems to be showing the popup every time you follow a link within Twitter. The simplest way around this is to just reload the page.
You just complained about GP not liking something, insisted it was cool and fun just because you thought so, man the irony is astounding.
GP's comment was fun and cool, every time someone posts something like this, you have to come in and throw your 2 cents in. We all know how you feel about it by now, if you hate it that much don't click on the HN comments. just let it be!
Even if it had been in a blog, if it was interrupted with memes and meanders,it would be a bad article.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, GP's comment should have nothing to do with whether you liked the article or not.
Twitter is garbage, its format is garbage. I certainly appreciate GP cutting through the cruft.
GP's comment was fun and cool, every time someone posts something like this, you have to come in and throw your 2 cents in. We all know how you feel about it by now, if you hate it that much don't click on the HN comments. just let it be!
Even if it had been in a blog, if it was interrupted with memes and meanders,it would be a bad article.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, GP's comment should have nothing to do with whether you liked the article or not.
Twitter is garbage, its format is garbage. I certainly appreciate GP cutting through the cruft.
Please can we talk about the content rather than the same Twitter debate that happens every time one of these gets linked?
The problem is that a good chunk of us can’t participate in the discussion because the content is locked behind a Twitter sign in modal.
Note that the parent boiled away all the noise to the actual information -- which could have been contained in a single tweet.
I wouldn't have bothered wading through all that to get to the simple little factoid. I appreciate the post, therefore.
I wouldn't have bothered wading through all that to get to the simple little factoid. I appreciate the post, therefore.
You can fold threads that don’t interest you.
Twitter doesn't let me view the thread because I'm not logged in. Is this A/B testing a new "feature" or is this their new rule?
Yes, I've noticed Twitter has started doing this in the last few days.
I'd like to thank the bean counters at Twitter, because I'm not going to sign in, so this new feature means I'm going to spend a lot less time on Twitter.
I'd like to thank the bean counters at Twitter, because I'm not going to sign in, so this new feature means I'm going to spend a lot less time on Twitter.
Any nitter instance can help with such things. Here's one:
https://nitter.nixnet.services/joelburgess/status/1428008043...
P.S. Nitter also puts RSS links at the top of everyone's timeline, which is handy if you would rather use an RSS reader than a Twitter app.
https://nitter.nixnet.services/joelburgess/status/1428008043...
P.S. Nitter also puts RSS links at the top of everyone's timeline, which is handy if you would rather use an RSS reader than a Twitter app.
Just installed "Nitter Redirect" browser extension. Thank you, Twitter, for finally making me avoid your site entirely.
Corresponding browser add-on: https://github.com/SimonBrazell/privacy-redirect
You have to open it in a new tab. I can't click to expand threads or follow anything on twitter (it appears to start loading, then gives me the 'Sign up' prompt). But I follow a link in a new tab, it works fine
I believe it is their new rule. But it shows up only if you are using twitter for a while as logged out. Clear data from browser and it goes away, but will eventually show up again.
Open in incognito tab to receive the preferential treatment new users get. Data-greedy product managers training is to starve them.
[deleted]
If on desktop, just block all cookies from Twitter.
Happened to me too. Switch to desktop mode.
The ironic thing is that the explanation would have fit in an actual single tweet.
GP did a good job summarizing the explanation, but there were a lot more details and at least one useful photo in the twitter thread. Transcribed and lightly condensed below for the convenience of others:
> Among Skyrim players, you'll occasionally see this tip: if you see a wild fox, follow it and you'll be led to treasure. Sometime shortly after shipping, we saw this going around online, and an informal investigation started. Who made foxes do this?!
> Skyrim uses something called 'navmesh' for AI navigation. For non-dev folks, this is an invisible 3D sheet of polygons that is laid over the world, telling AI where it can and cannot go.
> In most situations, you're seeing AI decide what do to (run at player, hide in cover, etc), use navmesh to make a path, and navigate along that path. Foxes are no different. But their AI is very simplified: they basically can only run away.
> So foxes flee. Why would they flee towards treasure? This is where it gets interesting. If you're close to an AI, it's in "High Process", or the most fancy, cpu-intensive pathfinding. It uses the full navmesh and will do things like line of sight and distance checks.
> To contrast, there's also "Low Process" - used for stuff like NPCs walking a trade route across the world. These are only updated every several minutes, and position is tracked very loosely.
> There is a sort of "Medium Process" for characters nearby, but who didn't need the complex pathing of combat. Because of the way the fox's AI worked (always be fleeing!) it's basically ONLY using this process.
> This is where understanding of how Skyrim uses navmesh comes in. Swaths of the outdoor world have simple navmesh. You don't need to add lots of detail in a space with basic topography, little clutter, or a low chance of combat. So wilderness = small number of big triangles.
> When you stumble across something like a camp, however, navmesh gets way more detailed. Added visual detail means added navmesh detail, and if we're placing NPCs of any kind, we also tend to add even more detail. So Points of Interest = big number of small triangles.
> You see where this is going? The Fox isn't trying to get 100 meters away - it's trying to get 100 triangles away. You know where it's easy to find 100 triangles? The camps/ruins/etc that we littered the world with, and filled with treasure to reward your exploration.
> So foxes aren't leading you to treasure - but the way they behave is leading them to areas that tend to HAVE treasure, because POIs w/loot have other attributes (lots of small navmesh triangles) that the foxes ARE pursuing.
> It's a nerdy little story, but I love it. Emergent Gameplay is often used to describe designed randomness, but this is a case of actual gameplay that NOBODY designed emerging from the bubbling cauldron of overlapping systems. And I think that's beautiful.
> Among Skyrim players, you'll occasionally see this tip: if you see a wild fox, follow it and you'll be led to treasure. Sometime shortly after shipping, we saw this going around online, and an informal investigation started. Who made foxes do this?!
> Skyrim uses something called 'navmesh' for AI navigation. For non-dev folks, this is an invisible 3D sheet of polygons that is laid over the world, telling AI where it can and cannot go.
> In most situations, you're seeing AI decide what do to (run at player, hide in cover, etc), use navmesh to make a path, and navigate along that path. Foxes are no different. But their AI is very simplified: they basically can only run away.
> So foxes flee. Why would they flee towards treasure? This is where it gets interesting. If you're close to an AI, it's in "High Process", or the most fancy, cpu-intensive pathfinding. It uses the full navmesh and will do things like line of sight and distance checks.
> To contrast, there's also "Low Process" - used for stuff like NPCs walking a trade route across the world. These are only updated every several minutes, and position is tracked very loosely.
> There is a sort of "Medium Process" for characters nearby, but who didn't need the complex pathing of combat. Because of the way the fox's AI worked (always be fleeing!) it's basically ONLY using this process.
> This is where understanding of how Skyrim uses navmesh comes in. Swaths of the outdoor world have simple navmesh. You don't need to add lots of detail in a space with basic topography, little clutter, or a low chance of combat. So wilderness = small number of big triangles.
> When you stumble across something like a camp, however, navmesh gets way more detailed. Added visual detail means added navmesh detail, and if we're placing NPCs of any kind, we also tend to add even more detail. So Points of Interest = big number of small triangles.
> You see where this is going? The Fox isn't trying to get 100 meters away - it's trying to get 100 triangles away. You know where it's easy to find 100 triangles? The camps/ruins/etc that we littered the world with, and filled with treasure to reward your exploration.
> So foxes aren't leading you to treasure - but the way they behave is leading them to areas that tend to HAVE treasure, because POIs w/loot have other attributes (lots of small navmesh triangles) that the foxes ARE pursuing.
> It's a nerdy little story, but I love it. Emergent Gameplay is often used to describe designed randomness, but this is a case of actual gameplay that NOBODY designed emerging from the bubbling cauldron of overlapping systems. And I think that's beautiful.
Even this lightly condensed version misses my favourite bit of the story - that the folks at Bethesda assumed that one of these 4 developers must have added it as an Easter egg. This guy only dug further when no one confessed to it.
That's kind of implied by the explanation itself though. Ie the explanation is not "Jimmy added this easter egg". It's something technical. Which implies it was not designed.
Not really. They actually thought someone manually added it and looked for the usual suspect. That itself I found hilarious.
Exactly! In my minds eye I imagined these 4 developers being interrogated in a dark room with a bright lamp shining on their face. “We know you something about the Fox AI! Admit it and this will end!”
I for one appreciate this Q&A summary. I can never figure out the Twitter layout especially on mobile.
(I’m in the millennial bucket in case the ageism comments come in).
(I’m in the millennial bucket in case the ageism comments come in).
Holy shit, do you think developers are the only people who deserve to consume information?
Yes, he could have told the story in one paragraph. Would it be as entertaining? Debatable. Would it be as accessible to the non-tech crowd? Definitely not. I can send these tweets to my non-techie girlfriend, and she'll understand and enjoy them. Your paragraph wouldn't cut it.
This smacks of the whole "A monad is just an endofunctor in the category of monoids, what's the problem?" joke, but instead of category theorists being condescending, it's just developers being condescending.
Yes, he could have told the story in one paragraph. Would it be as entertaining? Debatable. Would it be as accessible to the non-tech crowd? Definitely not. I can send these tweets to my non-techie girlfriend, and she'll understand and enjoy them. Your paragraph wouldn't cut it.
This smacks of the whole "A monad is just an endofunctor in the category of monoids, what's the problem?" joke, but instead of category theorists being condescending, it's just developers being condescending.
Not GP, but the point was that what he wrote should be an article/blog post instead of in a chain of tweets. It's not about the length or conciseness at all.
That they also summarized it in one paragraph for the audience here on hn is separate from that point
My opinion is, that the author, the one putting the work in decides the format and platform to use, but people are also free to dislike the format.
That they also summarized it in one paragraph for the audience here on hn is separate from that point
My opinion is, that the author, the one putting the work in decides the format and platform to use, but people are also free to dislike the format.
>do you think developers are the only people who deserve to consume information?
I think he just meant the overall narrative was hard to read, I think it was too.
I don't know what 'non-tech crowd' has to do with it. They can read blogs and paragraphs and other formats too...
I think he just meant the overall narrative was hard to read, I think it was too.
I don't know what 'non-tech crowd' has to do with it. They can read blogs and paragraphs and other formats too...
Sorry, maybe I rage-read-into GP's comment too much. I interpreted it as "this is a garbage format, here's a paragraph that would've sufficed".
What I'm arguing is that adding pictures/memes/space/cadence to information can be helpful to readers who aren't familiar with the subject area. Twitter makes that easy, and also has a broad reach.
What I'm arguing is that adding pictures/memes/space/cadence to information can be helpful to readers who aren't familiar with the subject area. Twitter makes that easy, and also has a broad reach.
That bar for readability is extremely low though. 260 characters at a time with pictures in between is basically a children’s picture book. I don’t think the GP’s comment is being unreasonable.
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In my opinion, you are overly negative on this one. I found it rather easy to read, and I'm a 1999-era citizen.
I found it impossible to read since I don't have a Twitter account...
Super weird you don’t have a “show this thread “ link. I technically have a Twitter account, but haven’t logged in for perhaps 8 years.
Anyway, datapoint, works for me.
Anyway, datapoint, works for me.
It changes day to day. I haven't logged in to Twitter in over a decade. I haven't been able to go to mobile.twitter.com and do anything in years, just gives me a sign up page. I can follow a link to a tweet and use the search from there. But in the last week or so if I tap a tweet or a search result I get sent to a sign up page. This behavior varies over time.
Yeah, I just started seeing this recently too. I blocked all those sign-up elements with UBlock but I still can't scroll. Refreshing the page once or twice usually makes it start working though.
Glorious webtech future.
Glorious webtech future.
I do, but when I click it, it requires me to log in.
I agree. It disappoints me that GP is the top-rated comment right now.
And suddenly Twitter stopped allowing me to view the thread without an account. :(
I won’t be signing up for Twitter, so I guess I can’t read it.
I won’t be signing up for Twitter, so I guess I can’t read it.
I totally disagree on the format, FWIW.
When I see a link to a Twitter thread, I know immediately what to expect. I know that the formatting will be consistent. I know that the site will be accessible and at least somewhat readable. I can see the reactions of other people to the content immediately. I can interact with the author in a uniform and easy way, if I want to. I know that the content likely won’t be too long.
This without even mentioning the benefits to the writer of the post. Twitter is free. It’s widely used, so you can get way more impressions that you’d ever get on a blog. It allows you to immediately see and interact with people reading your posts - it’s incredibly painful to do that with a blog that you host. It gives you decent analytics. It’s obviously way easier than hosting a blog.
Of course, blogs have many advantages too. Blog posts and Tweet threads solve two different problems.
When I see a link to a Twitter thread, I know immediately what to expect. I know that the formatting will be consistent. I know that the site will be accessible and at least somewhat readable. I can see the reactions of other people to the content immediately. I can interact with the author in a uniform and easy way, if I want to. I know that the content likely won’t be too long.
This without even mentioning the benefits to the writer of the post. Twitter is free. It’s widely used, so you can get way more impressions that you’d ever get on a blog. It allows you to immediately see and interact with people reading your posts - it’s incredibly painful to do that with a blog that you host. It gives you decent analytics. It’s obviously way easier than hosting a blog.
Of course, blogs have many advantages too. Blog posts and Tweet threads solve two different problems.
I don't hate the threads, but the GIFs were getting in the way. Like Medium posts that start with random Unsplash images.
I like it a lot more than the even more common method of using videos. 'Sadly' there are many people on the internet with different preferences.
"A chain of tweets interspersed with memes." I really liked the wholesome meme with the cat. The Cox-Zucker tweet was also quite amusing.
Thank you for this, Twitter is even more annoying now that they’re forcing logins to even browse.
The funny part of that whole thread was that you have to already understand how nav meshes work (at least a tiny bit, like me) in order to make the connection he wants you to make. But, if you already know a little bit about nav meshes, he could have explained what happened in a lot fewer tweets.
I don't think Twitter is the wrong format to tell this story: probably more people read it as a result, and that's to the good. But I will note that one thing about blog posts is that the format encourages editing and revision, while Twitter encourages spontaneity. In this case, the story could have benefited from a second draft for the sake of clarity.
I don't think Twitter is the wrong format to tell this story: probably more people read it as a result, and that's to the good. But I will note that one thing about blog posts is that the format encourages editing and revision, while Twitter encourages spontaneity. In this case, the story could have benefited from a second draft for the sake of clarity.
That's funny, just this week I was writing an AI for a creature in a side-project game that uses this exact same heuristic of getting away n nav-mesh nodes away from the player. Something to keep in mind I suppose.
Fortunately tools exist that can unroll those tweets to nice long post. As an example check Threadreader below. Although the result with one sentence per line is a bit strange and the meme pictures continue being pointless additions.
https://twitter.com/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336
https://twitter.com/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336
Absolutely agree. Thankfully, threadreaderapp and nitter exist (for now).
threadreaderapp.com is one of my favorite sites to extract the (rare) useful information from twitter.
Agree. The gifs are so distracting, I could barely get through it.
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> The most awful format ever; A chain of tweets interspersed with memes. This should be a blog post, but I guess that's too 1999 for the author.
2021: HN: That fact the world still doesn't conform to what we want after 14 years means the world is still wrong.
Why not create a offline thread and link that for those who want it? Like this user did - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28231699
2021: HN: That fact the world still doesn't conform to what we want after 14 years means the world is still wrong.
Why not create a offline thread and link that for those who want it? Like this user did - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28231699
> 2021: HN: That fact the world still doesn't conform to what we want after 14 years means the world is still wrong.
That's not necessarily arrogance. Look at Windows 11. Sometimes the world just has perverse incentives to make everything suck.
That's not necessarily arrogance. Look at Windows 11. Sometimes the world just has perverse incentives to make everything suck.
It's a total lack of understanding of UX and a refusal to learn.
I don't see that as arrogance.
It's complaining about a cool thing someone did on Windows 11 while the world uses Windows 11 and offering the same alternative to Windows 11 as in 1999.
OP could have re-blogged it, rather than their not quite correct summary if blogging is where it's at.
And I also liked the meme's, I literally wondered where he got them from and how much time it would take. They were artistically well chosen and helped drive a good story.
I don't see that as arrogance.
It's complaining about a cool thing someone did on Windows 11 while the world uses Windows 11 and offering the same alternative to Windows 11 as in 1999.
OP could have re-blogged it, rather than their not quite correct summary if blogging is where it's at.
And I also liked the meme's, I literally wondered where he got them from and how much time it would take. They were artistically well chosen and helped drive a good story.
I like the format! Something about organising your thinking into tweet-sized chunks lends itself to a nice pace for telling stories. Your TLDR certainly doesn’t retain any of the accessibility (to non-developers) or whimsy of the original.
A blog would be a barrier to sharing brief information. I don’t understand why twitter is not appropriate.
A blog has actually a lower barrier because it doesn't require a Twitter account. It can potentially also load much faster and has actual text formatting.
A blog post requires an account with a blogging provider or a hosting provider though, so I wouldn't call it a lower barrier if you don't have it.
Besides that, the context matters here. This post is riding off of the attention that another Skyrim WTF bug got recently, which was posted on Twitter. Continuing the conversation there seems like the lowest barrier to entry to me, considering that the author already has a Twitter account and a following there, especially if you actually want to reach people that might find it interesting.
Besides that, the context matters here. This post is riding off of the attention that another Skyrim WTF bug got recently, which was posted on Twitter. Continuing the conversation there seems like the lowest barrier to entry to me, considering that the author already has a Twitter account and a following there, especially if you actually want to reach people that might find it interesting.
On Twitter you sometimes need an account just to read posts as well. That's the only reason I have one.
> Continuing the conversation there seems like the lowest barrier to entry to me
You can also link it.
> Continuing the conversation there seems like the lowest barrier to entry to me
You can also link it.
Linking no longer works since for people who are logged out twitter has blocked being able to click on anything (ie unable to click on next message, thread, post, etc)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28231129
there's a lot of gaslighting of people because twitter is changing their ui. (ie oh no? you can't see it? must be something weird, it works for me. But in fact, twitter is the one changing the ui for difference classes of users so nothing really works consistently from one user to the next)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28231129
there's a lot of gaslighting of people because twitter is changing their ui. (ie oh no? you can't see it? must be something weird, it works for me. But in fact, twitter is the one changing the ui for difference classes of users so nothing really works consistently from one user to the next)
An html blog post doesn't prevent you from using paragraphs.
We even have a tag just for this <p>
We even have a tag just for this <p>
It’s a bunch of comments, not an essay
Again, static HTML does not prevent this. You can even keep the GIFs.
Agreed. Id rathe grok Skyrim in the decompiler for sixteen hours to find the "why foxes" answer than read tweetchains.
And this toxic bs is upvoted to the top? It's disgusting.
When I was reading that twitter-thread I was enjoying the style and the story. I don't like these pictures, yes, but it's just a miserably small part of the whole thing.
And when I was reading your comment I was regretting I’ve opened HN today. Are you so old to be so grumpy or so young to be so toxic? Not cool.
When I was reading that twitter-thread I was enjoying the style and the story. I don't like these pictures, yes, but it's just a miserably small part of the whole thing.
And when I was reading your comment I was regretting I’ve opened HN today. Are you so old to be so grumpy or so young to be so toxic? Not cool.
Unrolled to avoid login requirement: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1428008043556622336.html
Take a look at some public nitter instances if this is a problem you regularly run into: https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances
Nitter allows viewing threads like these without logging in or even enabling Javascript. For example, this post's thread can be viewed at both https://twitr.gq/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336 and https://nitter.42l.fr/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336.
Nitter has donation links on both Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/nitter) and Liberapay (https://liberapay.com/zedeus). Unfortunately, there isn't a way to donate to public instances that I'm aware of, but the software itself is worth supporting.
Nitter allows viewing threads like these without logging in or even enabling Javascript. For example, this post's thread can be viewed at both https://twitr.gq/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336 and https://nitter.42l.fr/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336.
Nitter has donation links on both Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/nitter) and Liberapay (https://liberapay.com/zedeus). Unfortunately, there isn't a way to donate to public instances that I'm aware of, but the software itself is worth supporting.
Nitter is wonderful, but has limitations:
- It still tends to include too much per-tweet overhead in presentation.
- It limits the length of the full thread presented.
- Individual nodes frequently go down and/or are rate-limited by Twitter. (I'm on about my 3rd principle instance at this point. It's begun timing out / getting rate-limited in the past week.)
Threadreader solves all of these issues for long Twitter threads, and is the preferred option in this case IMO.
- It still tends to include too much per-tweet overhead in presentation.
- It limits the length of the full thread presented.
- Individual nodes frequently go down and/or are rate-limited by Twitter. (I'm on about my 3rd principle instance at this point. It's begun timing out / getting rate-limited in the past week.)
Threadreader solves all of these issues for long Twitter threads, and is the preferred option in this case IMO.
I see it fine logged out.
I don’t. I either login or sign up. If I click the little x (which used to work) it takes me back.
iOS 14.whatever is mostly latest.
iOS 14.whatever is mostly latest.
Open links in a new tab.
If you have an adblocker with element hiding capability (I don't think any iOS ones do), hiding the #layers element removes the modal but you still cannot scroll.
If you have a userstyles extension, this works for me
If you have a userstyles extension, this works for me
#layers {
display: none !important;
}
html {
overflow: auto !important;
}I also see the thread just fine. Firefox on Android with uBlock Origin.
It works for me on desktop, but not mobile.
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I got a login popup when I tried to view a larger version of one of the images.
This made me smile, it sounds like a digital fairytale. A mathematical optimisation causing foxes to lead people to treasure, it sounds so surreal but insanely cool!
Yes! It sounds like something that you could find in The Program audio series.
> The Fox isn't trying to get 100 meters away - it's trying to get 100 triangles away.
Maybe this is obvious but I'm not seeing it... Why would an NPC measure distance in triangles instead of meters? Why is it trying to get 100 triangles away?
Maybe this is obvious but I'm not seeing it... Why would an NPC measure distance in triangles instead of meters? Why is it trying to get 100 triangles away?
The speed of computing a path from vertex to vertex is faster than trying to generate a point at X distance for the pathing object.
So you give the NPC a speed, and it moves as far along the edges between vertexes in each time interval.
The navmesh also helps keep the AI traveling in places that have been marked as safe for travel, without collision or drops.
So you give the NPC a speed, and it moves as far along the edges between vertexes in each time interval.
The navmesh also helps keep the AI traveling in places that have been marked as safe for travel, without collision or drops.
Ah, makes sense. Thank you!
I wonder if this is just actually not true, but was a hamfisted way of explaining what was happening.
In the low-density mesh which the fox uses, there are more nodes around treasure, and because edges connect nodes, more of the edges in uninteresting space lead towards treasure. So just by picking random edges, or edges away from the player, you are likely to end up near treasure. It's a bit like the is fox moving through a non-Euclidean space which has more volume near treasure.
Because measuring distance by hops would be absolutely daft.
In the low-density mesh which the fox uses, there are more nodes around treasure, and because edges connect nodes, more of the edges in uninteresting space lead towards treasure. So just by picking random edges, or edges away from the player, you are likely to end up near treasure. It's a bit like the is fox moving through a non-Euclidean space which has more volume near treasure.
Because measuring distance by hops would be absolutely daft.
Easiest way to pick a valid random location is to pick the center of a nav triangle. They could have traversed the nav mesh counting distance instead of just triangles but I guess they didn't and it worked out fine for the game.
To avoid the conversion (and more complicated path finding algorithm) and use less cpu, I would think. Game dev is all about the cpu budget in order to achieve a target frame rate.
In particular if you're doing pathing for tons of npcs (as they are) you really want to keep that optimized. In Guild Wars at launch for one of our expansions we had huge CPU issues with our game servers - it turned out designers had laid down really long elaborate paths for NPCs like guards and townspeople and the server was calculating all those paths at once when players entered a new zone, so it was saturating the game server. I had to build an auditing tool so we could scan all the zones for long paths and replace them with simple ones.
Bethesda has been building this specific type of game for decades so at this point things like npcs having complex patrols or other behavior is something they've figured out how to do well.
Bethesda has been building this specific type of game for decades so at this point things like npcs having complex patrols or other behavior is something they've figured out how to do well.
I played a lot of Guild Wars when I was a teenager with my friends! We were very glad to have a MMO that was fun and had raids, even though we couldn’t afford the other ones with a monthly cost. It was also prettier than other games. I still remember many of the locations :)
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More interestingly , if it doesn't know meters then how does it know density, why would it pick a more dense section of triangles.
The twitter thread isn't super clear about the exact mechanics. But If I had to guess, maybe the fleeing fox randomly chooses the path to follow, and because there are more possible paths in the dense parts of the map the odds of selecting one of those is higher. i.e. if I have 6 possible paths to my right, two to my front, and two to my left, if I randomly pick a path there is a 60% change of going right.
This only works if the camps mesh is really wide, black hole style.
If you enter the camp and it gets high suddenly, nothing is changed, since as a player you know you are in a camp.
The fact the fox stays, chewing through triangles, rather than running though like it would if it was based on meters doesn't matter.
Although, since the fox stays in the camp, you would think it was telling you something, even though it was random chance.
If you enter the camp and it gets high suddenly, nothing is changed, since as a player you know you are in a camp.
The fact the fox stays, chewing through triangles, rather than running though like it would if it was based on meters doesn't matter.
Although, since the fox stays in the camp, you would think it was telling you something, even though it was random chance.
As I understood that is that the fox is looking for the longest path (e.g. distance defined by breadth-first search) and longest paths are usually the ones that lead you to treasure because treasure is hidden deep within levels
That's funny, I understand it as the exact opposite. The fox is tasked with finding the shortest path that hits 100 points. This leads it to the closest high point density area.
> The fox is tasked with finding the shortest path that hits 100 points.
This is exactly what I said (breadth-first). Breadth first find shortest distances to all nodes in the neighbourhood.
This is exactly what I said (breadth-first). Breadth first find shortest distances to all nodes in the neighbourhood.
But the whole point is that the fox doesn't know actual distance, it only knows triangle distance.
Yeah, I think the the path length is calculated in terms of distance, but the patching requirement isn't a set distance.
> looking for the longest path
> "The Fox isn't trying to get 100 meters away - it's trying to get 100 triangles away."
Breadth-first search wouldn't be possible. If at each triangle the fox has ~2 options that's 2^100 to get to 100 triangles away
But if it did impossibly work out every journey, and then chose a random last node it would end up in camps more often.
Depth-first search shouldn't preference the camps, unless it gets dragged in from afar. But if it can only get dragged in really close to/in a camp, then it's about the same probability as the fox running past/through a camp anyway. And I would assume as a player you would see the fact it's pretty.
> "The Fox isn't trying to get 100 meters away - it's trying to get 100 triangles away."
Breadth-first search wouldn't be possible. If at each triangle the fox has ~2 options that's 2^100 to get to 100 triangles away
But if it did impossibly work out every journey, and then chose a random last node it would end up in camps more often.
Depth-first search shouldn't preference the camps, unless it gets dragged in from afar. But if it can only get dragged in really close to/in a camp, then it's about the same probability as the fox running past/through a camp anyway. And I would assume as a player you would see the fact it's pretty.
> If at each triangle the fox has ~2 options that's 2^100 to get to 100 triangles away
I don’t think you understand what Djikstra’s algorithm is. Breadth first doesn’t mean you have to always re-visit the same node more than once.
I don’t think you understand what Djikstra’s algorithm is. Breadth first doesn’t mean you have to always re-visit the same node more than once.
it doesn't know density. density is a property of the triangle placement. More triangles in "dense" areas. Pick a random triangle, you are likely to fall into a dense area.
Seems similar to gravity compressing spacetime causing matter to pathfind towards itself. Treasure compresses navmesh causing a kind of gravity for the Fox AI pathfinding.
So in a way spacetime could be thought of as a navmesh that the simulation for the universe uses to path objects.
So in a way spacetime could be thought of as a navmesh that the simulation for the universe uses to path objects.
I expected some reference so some country's lore where foxes did that, but the real explanation is actually much nicer.
Japan has this, in a way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune. Ghost of Tsushima makes it an explicit way to find treasures.
I don't know about Japan, but as far as I know the fox tradition in China has no element of leading people anywhere. Foxes, like anything else, may practice various magical arts notably including shapeshifting. (They are much more common as the subject of stories than other things are, but not very different in kind.) They may pursue any number of idiosyncratic goals. A common theme is that they take the form of a human woman and have sex with a human man; this may either be benign behavior or something more nefarious such as a way to slowly drain the man's life force.
The sexual theme is so common that 狐狸精 "fox spirit" became a term of abuse for overly sexual women. Chinese people like to translate the term into English as "vixen".
The sexual theme is so common that 狐狸精 "fox spirit" became a term of abuse for overly sexual women. Chinese people like to translate the term into English as "vixen".
That country with that lore is now Skyrim. Would be funny if it would spill over into the real world or into other games.
In Ghost of Tsushima, foxes lead the player to shrines, which grant certain items. In The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, you can befriend dogs by feeding them and they'll lead you to treasure. Not foxes sure, but almost the same thing. I wonder if the developers of these games were inspired by Skyrim's "feature".
I recall that in Ocarina of Time there was a dog in the windmill village that lead you somewhere when you gave it food? Might remember wrong though.
There was a dog in Hyrule Castle Town that you had to "befriend" (stand vaguely near for a few seconds), and the dog's owner rewarded you with a Heart Piece if you returned it to her.
I don't remember any significant dogs in Kakariko Village (where the windmill was), or the ability to give food to any of them.
I don't remember any significant dogs in Kakariko Village (where the windmill was), or the ability to give food to any of them.
Oh. Ye that is probably what I was thinking about. The windmill village was throwing chickens into a hen house.
I don't know for sure, but there is quite a lot of lore around foxes and dogs, see Kitsune and Komainu for example.
Since Zelda is a Nintendo game and Ghost of Tsushima is set in Japan, I would think it has more to do with real world lore than a reference to Skyrim.
Since Zelda is a Nintendo game and Ghost of Tsushima is set in Japan, I would think it has more to do with real world lore than a reference to Skyrim.
Perhaps NPCs should mention it, on occasion.
Knowing the Elder Scrolls games it's going to be in the lore going forward, never fear.
I love this kind of pattern emergence. It's interesting to see how simple models can create complex behaviors, even by chance
My favourite instance of emergent behaviour in video games is cats dying from alcohol poisoning after eating alcohol-laced vomit in Dwarf Fortress, and the bug reports/forum posts trying to determine what was killing the cats:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154425.0
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9195
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=154425.0
https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9195
Especially when it feels right. Foxes would lead you to treasure.
Wait, why?
I'd imagine foxes would flee to burrows or just about any hole where they can hide, but why would there be any treasure there?
I'd imagine foxes would flee to burrows or just about any hole where they can hide, but why would there be any treasure there?
I'm playing Skyrim now and the thought that the foxes would lead me to treasure has indeed popped into my mind. I followed one for a while but it didn't lead me anywhere notable.
Most animals either do a really good job of running away from you (rabbits, deer), or attack you (lions, walruses). Foxes just look at you and slowly walk into a certain direction when you get close to them, as if they're trying to show you something.
In general also, from watching YouTube videos of rescue foxes, they seem like super playful and might be the kind of animals leading you to treasure just for the fun of it.
Most animals either do a really good job of running away from you (rabbits, deer), or attack you (lions, walruses). Foxes just look at you and slowly walk into a certain direction when you get close to them, as if they're trying to show you something.
In general also, from watching YouTube videos of rescue foxes, they seem like super playful and might be the kind of animals leading you to treasure just for the fun of it.
TIL my bins are full of treasure.
Having to login to Twitter to read a thread is really annoying.
I know this is an overused trope but I have had enough of every social media platform becoming increasingly hostile and annoying. It's like they have hit the cap of how many people on the planet are actually interested in signing up for twitter and now have to tighten the screws on every aspect to try to force the last bits of possible growth.
Dumb question I know, but why can't we just have platforms that are satisfied with what they are and not expect constant growth at any cost.
Dumb question I know, but why can't we just have platforms that are satisfied with what they are and not expect constant growth at any cost.
Yep, platforms are getting silly. On Reddit the other day I got the usual popup about accepting cookies, but once clicked, instead of just setting the cookie it showed a popup saying that I need to switch to the new theme to accept cookies. As in, I'm forced to use their new theme just to click a button and then switch back to using the old theme (like any sane person).
> like any sane person
I wonder if the sluggish UX that comes with a heavy JS SPA cuts into their sales.
I spend more time on HN now, though I was a heavy Reddit user, because Reddit users on the new UI being able to comment with images cramp my well-thought-out arguments.
I wonder if the sluggish UX that comes with a heavy JS SPA cuts into their sales.
I spend more time on HN now, though I was a heavy Reddit user, because Reddit users on the new UI being able to comment with images cramp my well-thought-out arguments.
Because if you do, your competitors won't, and will poach your customers with hard sell techniques until they reach a network effect required to make you irrelevant.
In the long run, there can be only one, the little diversity we have is the effect of national network effects established in the first years of growth that proved hard to overcome, especially Twitter in US. Without US, Twitter will be steamrolled and you will only have exotic alternatives like vkontakte and weibo.
In the long run, there can be only one, the little diversity we have is the effect of national network effects established in the first years of growth that proved hard to overcome, especially Twitter in US. Without US, Twitter will be steamrolled and you will only have exotic alternatives like vkontakte and weibo.
That’s a good point. If I had to guess, I think over time there is a natural limit to the amount of user saturation. People are mostly aware of the platforms and their features and have probably made up their minds as to whether they want to join. Parts of the existing user base are probably getting sick of the engagement and lessening their usage.
I mentioned this elsewhere, and I don't mean to copy-paste, but take a look at some public nitter instances if this is a problem you regularly run into: https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances
Nitter allows viewing threads like these without logging in or even enabling Javascript. For example, this post's thread can be viewed at both https://twitr.gq/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336 and https://nitter.42l.fr/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336.
Nitter has donation links on both Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/nitter) and Liberapay (https://liberapay.com/zedeus). Unfortunately, there isn't a way to donate to public instances that I'm aware of, but the software itself is worth supporting.
Nitter allows viewing threads like these without logging in or even enabling Javascript. For example, this post's thread can be viewed at both https://twitr.gq/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336 and https://nitter.42l.fr/joelburgess/status/1428008043556622336.
Nitter has donation links on both Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/nitter) and Liberapay (https://liberapay.com/zedeus). Unfortunately, there isn't a way to donate to public instances that I'm aware of, but the software itself is worth supporting.
I should also mention Privacy Redirect as an add-on to automatically redirect you to nitter, openstreetmaps, invidious and others: https://github.com/SimonBrazell/privacy-redirect
I especially like how it replaces Youtube embeds with invidious embeds.
I especially like how it replaces Youtube embeds with invidious embeds.
I'd given up even clicking twitter links anymore because I'd get stuck in a "you have to enable js/you have to login" dead end... this is brilliant - I'd never heard of it before. Thanks for pointing it out!
You don't need to - I've just read it in incognito (firefox focus).
Agree on the terrible UI tho
Agree on the terrible UI tho
It's amazing how good humans are at detecting these sorts of patterns.
For another example, in minecraft, people noticed you can find diamonds if you dig straight down from clay patches. At first I dismissed it as superstition but it turns out that are technical reasons for why! You can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Icj5TNmBUI for details but the tldr is that due to how minecraft seeds their linear congruential random number generator, whenever there aren't carries/overflows the coordinates are always a fixed offset away.
For another example, in minecraft, people noticed you can find diamonds if you dig straight down from clay patches. At first I dismissed it as superstition but it turns out that are technical reasons for why! You can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Icj5TNmBUI for details but the tldr is that due to how minecraft seeds their linear congruential random number generator, whenever there aren't carries/overflows the coordinates are always a fixed offset away.
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Too bad I can't view threads without creating a Twitter account. Might've been a good read; I'll never know.
What happens if you chase a fox to the treasure? Does it just sit a short physical distance but large triangle distance away from you and think it's safe?
This is why you should always trust foxes.
I hate Twitter and their hostile anti-user behavior. Wasn’t there a service that blogerized Twitter chains? It would be nice if people took a habit of using it.
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threadreaderapp.com
So why do foxes lead you to treasure? Answer: They pathfind away from player not by euclidian "distance", but simply by number of navmesh polygons. The game world has uneven navmesh density, with points of interest (locations often housing treasure) having a higher number of polygons, so the foxes tend to pathfind their escape path into them.