Choosing the Right Wall Anchors(finewoodworking.com)
finewoodworking.com
Choosing the Right Wall Anchors
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2021/07/19/choosing-the-right-wall-anchors
217 comments
The pictures seem to use a regular stapler. Is that all it takes? What wall material are you stapling into?
I guess that's why you need like 180 staples. Which may be considered more polite than drilling 2-4 big holes.
I think I'd rather fill 2-4 big holes than 180 tiny ones. Interesting idea though.
Looking through the pictures again it suggests those staple holes are smaller than pin holes and might be "filled in" with a single coat of paint.
The staple holes are so small you likely don't need to fill them in. This is designed in/for Japan where most apartments have this weird soft textured wallpaper that hides the holes quite well. But if you drilled bigger holes in a rental, you would definitely be charged a lot when moving out.
Looks like the wall my cube is made out of.
Yeah, a regular stapler. It's meant for drywall.
Are those staples expanding or serrated or something? And how deep do they go? I wouldn't put up a TV with those myself, the one I have now is attached with eight bolts going in err, over 5 cm deep into solid concrete walls.
Of course the TV itself is hanging on the bracket with just two bolts, held down with gravity and some thin metal wire retainers. It wobbles when touched.
Of course the TV itself is hanging on the bracket with just two bolts, held down with gravity and some thin metal wire retainers. It wobbles when touched.
I think your main worry is breaking the drywall/changing the angle, rather than the staples pulling out or shearing off.
It's not like TVs are very heavy, and the weight adds to the friction forces holding the staples in. Especially if the staple has to pull upwards to be removed, it's unlikely to be going anywhere unless the material falls out from under it
It's not like TVs are very heavy, and the weight adds to the friction forces holding the staples in. Especially if the staple has to pull upwards to be removed, it's unlikely to be going anywhere unless the material falls out from under it
They're regular, small staples not going in particularly deep, but the aggregate friction is enough to hold it very firmly. Here's a video of a guy pulling on it so hard his (admittedly thin) wall flexes[0].
I forgot if it was this video or another one; I've seen someone hanging from it to test the strength.
[0] https://youtu.be/uYYhNf9GVZY?t=469
I forgot if it was this video or another one; I've seen someone hanging from it to test the strength.
[0] https://youtu.be/uYYhNf9GVZY?t=469
When you're mounting something the important thing is that the stress is distributed across the mounts in a way that means no single component is receiving more weight than it can take. Using lots and lots of 'weak' mounts like staples is just as secure as using eight bolts, but in the case of the staples the load is distributed across more of the wall. If the wall itself is the weak point then that's more secure.
Never thought of this but it makes total sense. Like how you can rip a piece of paper apart easily but try doing the same with a book.
Looks like the mount is limited to 15kg? A quick sample of ten different 55” models 2020+ showed only two were less than 15kg without stand.
I linked to the small-sized mount since the picture was clearer, but I actually use the large size[0] for my 55" since it's officially rated for 25kg.
[0] https://kabebijin.net/products/detail.php?product_id=123
[0] https://kabebijin.net/products/detail.php?product_id=123
First and foremost, that's insane. Not surprising, but not something I would have thought existed before being told about it.
I've never come across something like that in North America - I wonder if it's because (it appears) you'd need a special mount for the VESA mount to attach to?
I've never come across something like that in North America - I wonder if it's because (it appears) you'd need a special mount for the VESA mount to attach to?
Everything you need comes with the product. You staple the plate to the wall using little plastic films and then there’s another piece that hooks onto the plate. Then you attach the TV to that piece with screws into the VESA holes.
That connecting piece can either be articulating (like the one I linked to) or just a metal hook with screw holes on the other side (that's the one I have actually).
That connecting piece can either be articulating (like the one I linked to) or just a metal hook with screw holes on the other side (that's the one I have actually).
I wonder if such a mounting solution would work when paired with the crumbly gypsum based drywall commonly found in North America.
Probably not. Japanese construction is the best in the world (I think, by a fairly large margin). I have always been in awe of the speed and quality of their construction industry.
Has to do with all the earthquakes they get, and strong government regulations (with big nasty teeth).
Has to do with all the earthquakes they get, and strong government regulations (with big nasty teeth).
They indeed build for earthquakes, but that does not imply they build for longevity. See: https://japanpropertycentral.com/2012/06/what-is-the-lifespa...
Japan tends to tear down and rebuild their buildings more often than other countries. Old buildings depreciate in value rather than appreciate as people in Japan typically don't like "second hand" items up to and including housing.
Japan tends to tear down and rebuild their buildings more often than other countries. Old buildings depreciate in value rather than appreciate as people in Japan typically don't like "second hand" items up to and including housing.
Yes. I have heard that. It's odd, but it also means that you don't have many of the same problems that we do, in the US.
Wait, what do they use in Japan? I’ve always loathed drywall but haven’t known of any valid alternatives.
What's to hate about drywall? It's easy to work with. It's fairly resilient to abuse. It's easy to paint. It's simple to patch. Having dealt with plaster, wood and concrete walls, I can't think of anything I'd rather.
It’s also fire resistant, because gypsum has a lot of water bound up in it. Drywall will resist burning, and will also slow down a fire as it takes a lot of heat energy to convert the bound up water to steam.
That’s a big negative. Most of the anchors sold at the store fail with heavy loads. The best drywall anchor I’ve found is the cobra.
Looks like there's 232 holes in the backplate which gives you 464 staples to distribute the 15kg max across - giving ~32g per staple (although I guess it'd be biased from top to bottom because the TV would be a lever in the middle?)
Definitely insane but also impressively bonkers.
Definitely insane but also impressively bonkers.
Your plasterboard/drywall looks different to what I'm used to. Here in the UK we have plaster with a thick paper surface. The photos in that advert imply to me that you have a woven surface of some sort in Japan.
Staples would be unlikely to grip sufficiently in our plasterboard. I suspect that shear would not be a problem but moments will almost certainly be a bit of a problem. The failure mode here would not be the telly crashing to the floor vertically but gradually loosening from the top of the mounting and then swinging forwards off the wall.
I use at least eight, six inch no 10 screws here for TV mounts into brickwork, with decent plugs. Into wood, ie stud wall I'll use shorter screws. I also sometimes use extra washers - depends on the load. I've never had a TV mount fail!
A decent hammer drill/driver and a decent bit can drive a 8mm hole in a few seconds. By the time you've stapled in a hundred staples, I'd be watching the News! I would certainly not be trying to explain to the Boss (wife/partner) how the TV is held up 8)
That said, those staples look like a very clever solution, given the right circumstances. Not everyone is happy with a hammer drill.
Staples would be unlikely to grip sufficiently in our plasterboard. I suspect that shear would not be a problem but moments will almost certainly be a bit of a problem. The failure mode here would not be the telly crashing to the floor vertically but gradually loosening from the top of the mounting and then swinging forwards off the wall.
I use at least eight, six inch no 10 screws here for TV mounts into brickwork, with decent plugs. Into wood, ie stud wall I'll use shorter screws. I also sometimes use extra washers - depends on the load. I've never had a TV mount fail!
A decent hammer drill/driver and a decent bit can drive a 8mm hole in a few seconds. By the time you've stapled in a hundred staples, I'd be watching the News! I would certainly not be trying to explain to the Boss (wife/partner) how the TV is held up 8)
That said, those staples look like a very clever solution, given the right circumstances. Not everyone is happy with a hammer drill.
You wouldn’t just be watching the news; you could be done watching a movie on your newly-mounted TV before I’d be done with the staples! I recently upgraded to a larger TV and used the large version of this mount that used 750 staples. And my “wallpaper” here is some thick, rubbery substance that the staples can barely go through so each one had to be driven slowly with care, not using the momentum from the stapler pop. It took hours.
This isn’t for speed, but for when you don’t have any other option.
This isn’t for speed, but for when you don’t have any other option.
(Old) Pro-tip here. The regular brown rawl type plug works fine a lot of the time, but you want one with thicker plastic... and you don't necessarily need to pay more for it. Secondly in response to you point above...use a 7mm hole, not 8. It should take anything from a size 8-10 in good materials and a 12 in rubbish materials like soft brick. If you have problems some other tricks are to put a red plug inside the brown one, or drill a 5.5mm (red plug size) hole and stick a brown plug in it.
Most builders won't buy the nice Fischer ones for you, so have to improvise...
For places where you have a drywall dabbed to masonry you can have significant lateral movement between the plug in the masonry and the thing you are fixing on the outside of the plasterboard. That's where long plugged fixings massively help, where the plug reaches right through to the face of the dry lining.
Most builders won't buy the nice Fischer ones for you, so have to improvise...
For places where you have a drywall dabbed to masonry you can have significant lateral movement between the plug in the masonry and the thing you are fixing on the outside of the plasterboard. That's where long plugged fixings massively help, where the plug reaches right through to the face of the dry lining.
Not sure why I wrote 8mm. I have tons of 7mm bits lying around, worn smooth 8)
A squirt of "sticks like ..." mixed with brick or conc. dust is another solution to consider, depending on how permanent/important/immediate the fixing is.
A squirt of "sticks like ..." mixed with brick or conc. dust is another solution to consider, depending on how permanent/important/immediate the fixing is.
> Your plasterboard/drywall looks different to what I'm used to. Here in the UK we have plaster with a thick paper surface. The photos in that advert imply to me that you have a woven surface of some sort in Japan.
I just assumed that was wall paper. We had it in a living room of a house built in the US in the 1980s, it had 40 years of paint on it and was never coming off the drywall.
I just assumed that was wall paper. We had it in a living room of a house built in the US in the 1980s, it had 40 years of paint on it and was never coming off the drywall.
This is hilarious, it should be a own HN-Entry...
Nifty idea.
I wonder what's really easier, though. I usually hang TVs with 4-6 screws. Is it easier to put in 4-6 screws, or 100 staples?
I guess the advantage of staples is that each staple is easier, and it doesn't require juggling a screwdriver, swapping bits, ect.
I wonder what's really easier, though. I usually hang TVs with 4-6 screws. Is it easier to put in 4-6 screws, or 100 staples?
I guess the advantage of staples is that each staple is easier, and it doesn't require juggling a screwdriver, swapping bits, ect.
Replied above, but the staples are almost certainly more difficult. It’s just very secure without any studs and it doesn’t leave large holes.
Dear god that’s terrifying.
This setup would induce anxiety in me each time I would watch that TV and think its about to fail. And I'd always be thinking I'll need to patch all those tiny holes in the future.
You win this thread.
This looks like it would hold against gravity, but would it hold if I pull straight out towards me?
For those in the US, I've used this "No stud" TV mount multiple times with great success on TVs up to 43". Granted there is no swivel feature, it's super easy to install and very secure.
https://www.amazon.com/Hangman-Products-S-2040A-Hanger-55-In...
https://www.amazon.com/Hangman-Products-S-2040A-Hanger-55-In...
Fantastic. And Frustrating.
Not all plugs are created equal.
I've found loads are total garbage. The only brand I have found that reliably works into brick and plaster are Fischer plugs. If I buy something that already comes with plugs, they go straight into the bin and I use my own screws and matching plugs.
Fischer has a lot of technical information freely and publicly available on their website for their screws too (e.g. https://fiproductmedia.azureedge.net/media/Certification%20D...). This is pleasing when you are mounting something that needs to take a lot of weight (shelves, large mirrors etc) and you want piece of mind.
Highly recommended - I've basically chucked everything else out and now have 3 different sized Fischer plugs and a variety of matching screws (pan head, counter sunk etc) to meet all my needs.
I am not a pro - just a DIYer who has had multiple failures in the past from cheap-ass plugs and screws who initially blamed themselves. Turns out you CAN blame the tools (well - fixings in this case) since quality fixings solved my problems.
I've found loads are total garbage. The only brand I have found that reliably works into brick and plaster are Fischer plugs. If I buy something that already comes with plugs, they go straight into the bin and I use my own screws and matching plugs.
Fischer has a lot of technical information freely and publicly available on their website for their screws too (e.g. https://fiproductmedia.azureedge.net/media/Certification%20D...). This is pleasing when you are mounting something that needs to take a lot of weight (shelves, large mirrors etc) and you want piece of mind.
Highly recommended - I've basically chucked everything else out and now have 3 different sized Fischer plugs and a variety of matching screws (pan head, counter sunk etc) to meet all my needs.
I am not a pro - just a DIYer who has had multiple failures in the past from cheap-ass plugs and screws who initially blamed themselves. Turns out you CAN blame the tools (well - fixings in this case) since quality fixings solved my problems.
A bit of an aside, but Fischer also makes wonderful toys under the fischertechnik brand.
https://www.fischertechnik.de/en/
https://www.fischertechnik.de/en/
great advice, and i would even generalize this to suggest that you should toss any fasteners that come bundled with low cost products (obviously there are exceptions with specialty fasteners and such). you can get a package of drywall screws or drywall anchors (into which you can drill screws) of decent quality at any hardware store.
i have saved a lot of blood, sweat, and tears by not dealing with stripped screws, flimsy drywall anchors that shred, etc.
i have saved a lot of blood, sweat, and tears by not dealing with stripped screws, flimsy drywall anchors that shred, etc.
x100. With emphasis
Any fixture that comes from China these days seems to have pot-metal screws, which will pop a head at the slightest torque. Or just because they feel like it.
Just buy a box of drywall screws, and two assorted (different length / size) packs of exterior screws and machine screws, preferably ones that comes in a nice divided box, and pull from there.
Any fixture that comes from China these days seems to have pot-metal screws, which will pop a head at the slightest torque. Or just because they feel like it.
Just buy a box of drywall screws, and two assorted (different length / size) packs of exterior screws and machine screws, preferably ones that comes in a nice divided box, and pull from there.
Are you in the US? There is usually a stud every 16 inches or so here, which obviates the need for too many anchors. Excluding small picture frames, I can't think of a use case where I'd rely on an anchor (you usually bridge studs for anything smaller but heavy).
No studs in walls made of bricks! The whole thing is solid all the way along so just put things where you want.
I think that is fairly common in Europe, although I know that timber construction is getting more common in the past decade or two.
I think that is fairly common in Europe, although I know that timber construction is getting more common in the past decade or two.
There's also a lot of lath and plaster which tends to have no standard spacing and smaller studs.
My condo is in a 110 year old building. Some of the walls are thick brick with crumbling dry plaster on top. I tried to hang a pretty heavy frame on one of those walls & made a huge mess. Had to have a pro come out to do it!!
HN is sometimes a gem with random relevant content.
HN is sometimes a gem with random relevant content.
Are there studs in your brick wall? Interesting.
HN can be a bit West Coast oriented where there are virtually no bricks due to earthquakes
Bricks are used a lot in earthquake zones in Europe, e.g. Italy (earthquake-rated bricks anyway, not common London bricks etc). I think the timber frame construction is more of a cultural thing than an earthquake protection thing.
It's absolutely an earthquake thing. You're not even allowed to use bricks for construction in California (or even own an existing brick building in some cases) unless you pay tons of money to reinforce it with steel.
See https://blog.jumpstartinsurance.com/charming-brick-buildings...
See https://blog.jumpstartinsurance.com/charming-brick-buildings...
My bad! Assumed the discussion was mostly around drywall anchors.
Sormat is fine too.
Which plug are you referring to?
They have an Expansion plug S which is hot garbage.
They have an Expansion plug S which is hot garbage.
8mm: Expansion plug SX
6mm: Universal plug UX
5mm (35mm deep): DuoPower
I tend to stick to the 8mm and 6mm ones, but sometimes I need "short" plugs for e.g. hanging things in hollow panel doors so I have the 5mm 35mm deep for those as things like that tend to have more delicately sized holes for smaller screws. I prefer to use the 6mm plugs for day-to-day stuff.
The 8mm Expansion plug SX can take some really chunky screws - like 5mm or 6mm diameter so I have no doubt about heavy shelves or big mirrors etc.
6mm: Universal plug UX
5mm (35mm deep): DuoPower
I tend to stick to the 8mm and 6mm ones, but sometimes I need "short" plugs for e.g. hanging things in hollow panel doors so I have the 5mm 35mm deep for those as things like that tend to have more delicately sized holes for smaller screws. I prefer to use the 6mm plugs for day-to-day stuff.
The 8mm Expansion plug SX can take some really chunky screws - like 5mm or 6mm diameter so I have no doubt about heavy shelves or big mirrors etc.
Funny how concrete walls are just a last chapter low content part. Most of us Europeans fight very hard battles against concrete walls and using the right anchor is quite a thing.
Chemical anchors are not covered. They are often the only solution for older brick walls.
Also tends to work for 'hollow' brick (the ones with cavities) walls.
Now, apart from just being a solution, it should be mentioned that this is probably the only solution which both has sub-mm accuracy for positioning and combines it with ridiculous strength without elasticity. As in: you drill a hole, fill it, put a steel bar in it, positioning it with e.g. small pieces of wood, wait until hardened, and the thing won't ever move again in no direction. None of the typical issues like plastic and other plugs having some slack, old bricks being notoriously uneven making it extremely hard to get a hole drilled exactly at the spot you want (which is impossible anyway if you land on the edge of stone and mortar). Cons: pricey. Also most of the time it's complete overkill, I admit I like doing that just for peace of mind though :)
Now, apart from just being a solution, it should be mentioned that this is probably the only solution which both has sub-mm accuracy for positioning and combines it with ridiculous strength without elasticity. As in: you drill a hole, fill it, put a steel bar in it, positioning it with e.g. small pieces of wood, wait until hardened, and the thing won't ever move again in no direction. None of the typical issues like plastic and other plugs having some slack, old bricks being notoriously uneven making it extremely hard to get a hole drilled exactly at the spot you want (which is impossible anyway if you land on the edge of stone and mortar). Cons: pricey. Also most of the time it's complete overkill, I admit I like doing that just for peace of mind though :)
Chemical anchors is how all industrial machinery is mounted these days.
How so? Concrete takes any kind of wall plug extremely well, and brick is not so bad either as long as you don't hit the mortar joints. Vertically perforated brick and old cinder blocks can be annoying, though, I'll give you that.
(Not parent, but European)
I think the issue is generally more how to get into the concrete in the first place.
I personally live in a skyscraper and have tried to drill into my walls and found out it's close to impossible without industrial equipment.
Every few months on the beginning of the month (when people move in), I can hear the furtive struggle of a drill trying to get into the load-bearing walls. How it starts off confident and then the torque decreases and decreases.
I think the issue is generally more how to get into the concrete in the first place.
I personally live in a skyscraper and have tried to drill into my walls and found out it's close to impossible without industrial equipment.
Every few months on the beginning of the month (when people move in), I can hear the furtive struggle of a drill trying to get into the load-bearing walls. How it starts off confident and then the torque decreases and decreases.
Depending on the walls, generally at least in my country walls are made of clay bricks, so any hammer drill will work, but if you want to drill too close to the ceiling, or the ceiling you will need something better.
I ended up buying a rotary hammer because of this, holes on the floor (doorstoppers), ceiling, or walls right close to the ceiling was impossible with the cheap hammer drill, along with a good SDS+ drill bit feels like butter now.
I ended up buying a rotary hammer because of this, holes on the floor (doorstoppers), ceiling, or walls right close to the ceiling was impossible with the cheap hammer drill, along with a good SDS+ drill bit feels like butter now.
Yes, I had good experiences working with brick walls so far - but a lot of very modern construction (here in Switzerland) uses a lot of concrete, sometimes even exposed concrete in living spaces [0].
I really don't know if any of the designers/architects involved have ever tried living in those apartments. I think a lot of them would choose different materials if they had to do their own DYI.
[0] https://www.ryserboeden.ch/binokular
I really don't know if any of the designers/architects involved have ever tried living in those apartments. I think a lot of them would choose different materials if they had to do their own DYI.
[0] https://www.ryserboeden.ch/binokular
Oh, they do.
Concrete has great thermodynamic properties for living comfort. It cools at day, warms at night, transfers from cold parts of the house to hot ones, etc.
It is there on purpose (and not too difficult to drill into with a "Bohrhammer", rotary drill(?), i.e. the ones with SDS(+)).
Actually, the brick-walls we have (hollow bricks with flimsy thin walls) were harder for me to figure out. They need really careful drilling with the right tools, otherwise the brick shatters and nothing will take grip.
Concrete has great thermodynamic properties for living comfort. It cools at day, warms at night, transfers from cold parts of the house to hot ones, etc.
It is there on purpose (and not too difficult to drill into with a "Bohrhammer", rotary drill(?), i.e. the ones with SDS(+)).
Actually, the brick-walls we have (hollow bricks with flimsy thin walls) were harder for me to figure out. They need really careful drilling with the right tools, otherwise the brick shatters and nothing will take grip.
Honestly, with a good rotary hammer (and good drill bits!) you go through reinforced concrete like butter. I swear by my Hilti, but an Einhell or Lidl will do a fine job too
Yes, that's what I mean when I say "industrial equipment".
No one who rents a normal apartment for 1 or 2 people will own a rotary hammer they only need for 1 day every 5 years - they'll rent a powerful one at a hardware store.
But lots of people have an affordable power drill which is still good enough to drill into brick walls (since cheap power drills suck so much, you never want to use them again, but mid-range power drills are pretty all-around powerful).
No one who rents a normal apartment for 1 or 2 people will own a rotary hammer they only need for 1 day every 5 years - they'll rent a powerful one at a hardware store.
But lots of people have an affordable power drill which is still good enough to drill into brick walls (since cheap power drills suck so much, you never want to use them again, but mid-range power drills are pretty all-around powerful).
> No one who rents a normal apartment for 1 or 2 people will own a rotary hammer they only need for 1 day every 5 years - they'll rent a powerful one at a hardware store.
I got mine because renting it for 1 day was actually more expensive than just buying a cheap one new. Still works fine after 10 years.
I got mine because renting it for 1 day was actually more expensive than just buying a cheap one new. Still works fine after 10 years.
Use a pneumatic hammer drill, you can find out which one is pneumatic by checking the head. It should be SDS. Rotary heads can not be used on hammer drills.
I'd argue for the applications shown in this article, generic plugs work just fine.
Drilling into the material is another matter though, I at some point invested in a hammer drill which manages that just fine.
Drilling into the material is another matter though, I at some point invested in a hammer drill which manages that just fine.
> Drilling into the material is another matter though, I at some point invested in a hammer drill which manages that just fine.
And don't take a cheap one. Also buy good drill bits. I have reinforced concrete wall in my home and anything less than 7€ drill bits was basically one-used only.
And don't take a cheap one. Also buy good drill bits. I have reinforced concrete wall in my home and anything less than 7€ drill bits was basically one-used only.
I second this. Honestly if you own a house there's no reason not to invest in a good cordless rotary hammer
I just use Bosch's drill bits for concrete. They're nice and durable. For wood, B+D Piranha lives up to its name.
On the screw bits side, heavy use delegated to Bosch again, while fine stuff are handled by Wera.
On the screw bits side, heavy use delegated to Bosch again, while fine stuff are handled by Wera.
Cheap ones work fine if you only use it occasionally. Mine was like €35 and I've had it for over 10 years now, still works fine. Goes through concrete like a hot knife through butter.
When I initially needed one I checked how much they were to rent, it was actually cheaper to buy one than to rent one for a day. Worst-case scenario it fails an I get another cheap one, I already got my money's worth.
When I initially needed one I checked how much they were to rent, it was actually cheaper to buy one than to rent one for a day. Worst-case scenario it fails an I get another cheap one, I already got my money's worth.
For any job larger than one or two holes, I highly recommend using (perhaps renting) a rotary hammer. For hard concrete, the difference against a hammer drill really is night and day.
It is not only drilling. Some of the walls are frickle, falling apart or other are steel hard beton.
Using the right drill machine however is indeed critical.
Using the right drill machine however is indeed critical.
Also, I was surprised not to see the magic word "Fischer" mentioned anywhere.
The Duo Power plastic anchors shown in the article are made by Fischer.
I used to live in an old building in Sweden where the external walls were made of thick concrete containing large stones and straw(!) The cheap drill bits I had did not last for long.
I used to live in an old building in Sweden where the external walls were made of thick concrete containing large stones and straw(!) The cheap drill bits I had did not last for long.
> Most of us Europeans fight very hard battles against concrete walls and using the right anchor is quite a thing.
I've mounted (and still mounting) lot of stuff using high quality, but ordinary plastic plugs & screws. Fsicher, or any similar brand will do. Drill the hole with correct diameter, put in the plugs, screw, attach.
Hardened concrete is really a battle to drill though.
I've mounted (and still mounting) lot of stuff using high quality, but ordinary plastic plugs & screws. Fsicher, or any similar brand will do. Drill the hole with correct diameter, put in the plugs, screw, attach.
Hardened concrete is really a battle to drill though.
Absolutely :). Just missed them in the article :)
Yes don't cheap out. My local hardware store sells off brand wall plugs, but compared to Fischer they aren't even worth the packaging they come in. Fischer isn't that much more expensive, especially if you buy the bulk boxes (50 for ~€8).
For masonry get yourself a 220V hammer drill. I picked one up from Lidl a couple of years ago for €40 and it has no issues drilling into my monolithic concrete walls. If I were using it daily I'd get something a bit better quality, but for DIY it's more than enough.
For masonry get yourself a 220V hammer drill. I picked one up from Lidl a couple of years ago for €40 and it has no issues drilling into my monolithic concrete walls. If I were using it daily I'd get something a bit better quality, but for DIY it's more than enough.
I have an old 850W Bosch with 2 speeds + reverse. That thing is built like a tank.
OTOH, I've used a DeWalt cordless hammer drill. Brushless motors are frightening things :)
OTOH, I've used a DeWalt cordless hammer drill. Brushless motors are frightening things :)
Haha. I have a cordless brushless impact driver. First time I used it to put a screw in a wall it went in so fast I didn't stop in time and it stripped the head :D
Cordless impact drivers or even 230V ones like Bosch Advanced Impact do not perform well on reinforced concrete. You need a pneumatic hammer drill. Visually they are quite different because of the SDS head.
Cordless impact drivers are one thing. Those store energy in a spring, a rotating hammer assembly is pushed by that spring and gains inertia, striking an anvil to provide a quick burst of torque. They typically have a hexagonal socket and are used to drive screws. Impact wrenches have the same construction, but are beefier, have square drive anvils, and are used to drive nuts and bolts.
A hammer drill spins in a continuous motion, and is typically used with a spiral flute drill in a Jacobs chuck (or tool-less version of the Jacobs chuck). You can usually enable or disable the hammer action with the clutch. It has a similar mechanism that encourages the drill to tap forwards, but if you press too hard it won't do much. Just a weighty and useless add-on to an ordinary drill to justify a slightly increased price, IMO. A regular drill, even with a masonry bit, is ineffective in concrete; hammer drills can work if the bit is small and the mix used more sand and maybe fine gravel (eg. mortar or brick), but are hopeless if you encounter a larger stone. Importantly, the energy and the frequency of the hammering action are tied to the rotation - usually 1, 2, or 3 taps per revolution. You don't get heavy or rapid impacts at low RPM.
A rotary impact (whether pneumatic, corded, or cordless) has an SDS head and a mechanism that drives the head forward and aft. You can typically run it in hammer-only mode, which is impossible with a hammer drill. You may be able to shift a cam (or adjust an air valve) to change the impact power. And yeah, with a decently powerful rotary impact tool, you can run put large holes in concrete with little hassle.
A hammer drill spins in a continuous motion, and is typically used with a spiral flute drill in a Jacobs chuck (or tool-less version of the Jacobs chuck). You can usually enable or disable the hammer action with the clutch. It has a similar mechanism that encourages the drill to tap forwards, but if you press too hard it won't do much. Just a weighty and useless add-on to an ordinary drill to justify a slightly increased price, IMO. A regular drill, even with a masonry bit, is ineffective in concrete; hammer drills can work if the bit is small and the mix used more sand and maybe fine gravel (eg. mortar or brick), but are hopeless if you encounter a larger stone. Importantly, the energy and the frequency of the hammering action are tied to the rotation - usually 1, 2, or 3 taps per revolution. You don't get heavy or rapid impacts at low RPM.
A rotary impact (whether pneumatic, corded, or cordless) has an SDS head and a mechanism that drives the head forward and aft. You can typically run it in hammer-only mode, which is impossible with a hammer drill. You may be able to shift a cam (or adjust an air valve) to change the impact power. And yeah, with a decently powerful rotary impact tool, you can run put large holes in concrete with little hassle.
> hammer drills can work if the bit is small and the mix used more sand and maybe fine gravel (eg. mortar or brick), but are hopeless if you encounter a larger stone. Importantly, the energy and the frequency of the hammering action are tied to the rotation - usually 1, 2, or 3 taps per revolution. You don't get heavy or rapid impacts at low RPM.
Hrmm, no.
The drill I use (the 800W one) can drill up to 20mm on concrete. It taps probably 20-30 times per revolution and is able to drill earthquake resistant concrete with ease. It also taps harder if you push harder. This kind of concrete can resist thick steel nails when driven with an hammer. The nails generally break into two or get slightly bent.
When used with a good drill bit, it just drills very cleanly with a little bit of resistance in the beginning, but makes relatively quick work of it.
For reference, it's a Bosch CSB 800-2 RE, made in the 90s [0].
So, there are hammer drills, and there are hammer drills. Not all of them are created equal.
[0]: https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9414321300_1470304831.jpg
Hrmm, no.
The drill I use (the 800W one) can drill up to 20mm on concrete. It taps probably 20-30 times per revolution and is able to drill earthquake resistant concrete with ease. It also taps harder if you push harder. This kind of concrete can resist thick steel nails when driven with an hammer. The nails generally break into two or get slightly bent.
When used with a good drill bit, it just drills very cleanly with a little bit of resistance in the beginning, but makes relatively quick work of it.
For reference, it's a Bosch CSB 800-2 RE, made in the 90s [0].
So, there are hammer drills, and there are hammer drills. Not all of them are created equal.
[0]: https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/9414321300_1470304831.jpg
Lots of perfectly functional SDS hammer drills are electric (here in USA they're 120V). This is different from what I've called an impact driver, which is more for turning fasteners than drilling holes. Even Harbor Freight sells a few electric hammer drills that will sink smaller diameters like 1/4" at about 2 seconds per inch. Larger diameter bits take longer, but there's no need for an air compressor.
I'm not sure why you'd mention "reinforced" concrete. I thought all concrete required reinforcement of some sort? Fiber won't be an issue, but if you hit rebar it's time to relocate your hole, no matter what you're drilling with. Even if the drill can do it you're going to ruin the bit.
I'm not sure why you'd mention "reinforced" concrete. I thought all concrete required reinforcement of some sort? Fiber won't be an issue, but if you hit rebar it's time to relocate your hole, no matter what you're drilling with. Even if the drill can do it you're going to ruin the bit.
> I'm not sure why you'd mention "reinforced" concrete. I thought all concrete required reinforcement of some sort?
Concrete can be tuned for brittleness and strength. Some versions become very hard and impenetrable after they completely cure. They need more powerful drills and longer drill times since they simply resist the drill bit. It's akin to the difference between stainless steel and armor plate.
Concrete can be tuned for brittleness and strength. Some versions become very hard and impenetrable after they completely cure. They need more powerful drills and longer drill times since they simply resist the drill bit. It's akin to the difference between stainless steel and armor plate.
Oh I see; this may be similar to something we see sometimes with some very old concrete. Still, it isn't clear why this would be used in a residential setting.
Consider a gated community built very close to sea, where the houses are exposed to salty moisture all year long.
Moreover the area is rocky, and is a very active earthquake area, so that a double wall sub basement/foundation is required.
On top of that, the gated community is built by a company which is building dams regularly, so they're knowledgeable in specialty concrete mixes for both quake and moisture resistance.
[This is not a hypothetical scenario btw. :) ]
Moreover the area is rocky, and is a very active earthquake area, so that a double wall sub basement/foundation is required.
On top of that, the gated community is built by a company which is building dams regularly, so they're knowledgeable in specialty concrete mixes for both quake and moisture resistance.
[This is not a hypothetical scenario btw. :) ]
I was referring to inserting fasteners, after drilling the hole with a different tool.
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Lidl is great value for these things.
An impact driver is well worth it when dealing with concrete walls.
A basic corded model can be had for about 50 bucks, just make sure it has a chuck tool to really tighten the bit.
With that you can quickly drill a pilot hole into hardened concrete, and then use your favorite masonry screws to attach things to the wall. I've had good luck with tapcon screws.
A basic corded model can be had for about 50 bucks, just make sure it has a chuck tool to really tighten the bit.
With that you can quickly drill a pilot hole into hardened concrete, and then use your favorite masonry screws to attach things to the wall. I've had good luck with tapcon screws.
Yeah do almost all of these anchors require that you’ve got hollow walls? A sheet of plaster with nothing behind it but air?
I've only lived in stone or concrete houses, there has always been enough of a gap between the drywall and the house walls to expand mollies into. That air helps noise and heat insulation, as well as being useful for passing heating water, electrics etc
Well the concrete houses I lived in never had drywall on the wall at all :). It really depends :)
So raw concrete inside? and they painted directly on it? o_O
Concrete or more typically some kind of (concrete) brick, then plaster, then wallpaper, then paint.
At least in many German houses.
At least in many German houses.
well that's drywall no? the sheets of plaster between the wall and the wallpaper
Plaster can be very thin and it isn't sandwiched between sheets of wallpaper. It's used to smooth out the wall texture.
You can also have concrete wall with plaster and then on top of it paint, no wallpaper at all.
You can also have concrete wall with plaster and then on top of it paint, no wallpaper at all.
Standard way to build here for the last 50 years. Indoors, the raw brick or concrete wall has a thin layer of "flattener" plaster spread. No drywall pieces.
Most of the time no wallpaper.
Most of the time no wallpaper.
Where I live the walls are brick and then you plaster on top of them.
That's the standard type of wall, yes. Studs with a sheathing fixed over them. On the interior, drywall. On the exterior, plywood or specialty sheathing materials.
US (Florida) checking in. A hammer drill is your friend.
Once you spend a few decades in concrete houses, everything else seems cheap and suspect.
Once you spend a few decades in concrete houses, everything else seems cheap and suspect.
Just use wedge anchors in concrete for anything somewhat heavy, blue tapcons for lighter stuff
Very interesting article, I learned a lot from it.
No mention of Command Strips; I was curious to see if the author had any opinion on them. I've used them with some success in the past when I didn't want to put a hole in a wall.
Anyone have any knowledge of their pros and cons? One "con" I know of is just a matter of technique: when you remove one, don't pull it away from the wall! Pull it straight down against the wall, slowly.
https://command.com/
If nothing else, DOS old-timers will get a kick out of that domain name!
No mention of Command Strips; I was curious to see if the author had any opinion on them. I've used them with some success in the past when I didn't want to put a hole in a wall.
Anyone have any knowledge of their pros and cons? One "con" I know of is just a matter of technique: when you remove one, don't pull it away from the wall! Pull it straight down against the wall, slowly.
https://command.com/
If nothing else, DOS old-timers will get a kick out of that domain name!
I have a lot of painted brick wall I'm hesitant to drill into.
Command strips have worked absolutely fine (and also come off without a trace if need be) for relatively light loads such as paintings and other decoration, but two Command hooks could not hold up a laundry drying rack that weighs about 3 kg despite technically rated to do so.
Command strips have worked absolutely fine (and also come off without a trace if need be) for relatively light loads such as paintings and other decoration, but two Command hooks could not hold up a laundry drying rack that weighs about 3 kg despite technically rated to do so.
Interesting that they have worked for you on painted brick! That seems like a much rougher surface than the drywall I've used them on.
They're generally designed for that weight with the forces going straight toward the floor (like hanging a picture, a hook for a broom, a coat hook or something). The further you have that weight from the wall, the less weight it can hold.
TESA is the brand on my side of the pond that has similar products, but I've never seen them advertised to work on coarser walls like drywall or - as another commenter mentioned - painted brick, they'll work best on tile. And then only for fairly light loads.
For heavier duty stuff, there's double-sided foam tape, ideally the one for bathrooms since they're reinforced with a fiberglass (I presume) mesh and are more water resistant. We use some of those to stick an ikea shower shelving unit in the corner in our bathroom, I didn't want to put screws in the walls. Also because I don't trust this thing won't start rusting and looking tatty within a few years.
For heavier duty stuff, there's double-sided foam tape, ideally the one for bathrooms since they're reinforced with a fiberglass (I presume) mesh and are more water resistant. We use some of those to stick an ikea shower shelving unit in the corner in our bathroom, I didn't want to put screws in the walls. Also because I don't trust this thing won't start rusting and looking tatty within a few years.
Painted drywall is not coarse. Unless it's textured of course, but who does that? Command strips are explicitly designed for painted drywall.
I've had bad luck with them. I live in the desert and in the summer my art started falling off the walls.
My only issues with command strips has been that I've had the paint come off the wall. This seems to be a problem with some types of paint but not others, where they don't bond as well with the wall/undercoat.
Obviously not a problem with the strips themselves, just something to bear in mind when using them.
Obviously not a problem with the strips themselves, just something to bear in mind when using them.
Yeah, the painters did a terrible job painting our house; I think they put one thick layer on rather than multiple thin layers. Command strips hold about 1lb before pulling the paint off. Of course we also have paint that comes off if you accidentally rub against it while walking by so I don't blame the command strips...
Yep. We did our own painting and I think we made that mistake. Used the one-coat stuff that seems to be more "rubbery" and you end up with a thick layer that will just peel off once it gets damaged. Lesson learned.
In general with paint, the more you thin it, the more coats you need, but the longer it lasts once you are done. Also don't use water-based primer to cover oil (even though it says on the side of the can that it can do it!), use a shellac primer.
That second one I learned from painting my first condo; painted the ceiling, gave it a week to cure; taped off to do the walls, and after finishing the walls, the ceiling paint came off with the tape! Got a pro in there and he said "if it actually did what it says on the can, I'd use it because it's way easier cleanup"
That second one I learned from painting my first condo; painted the ceiling, gave it a week to cure; taped off to do the walls, and after finishing the walls, the ceiling paint came off with the tape! Got a pro in there and he said "if it actually did what it says on the can, I'd use it because it's way easier cleanup"
What's the lesson from the second one?
Don't use water-based primer to coat oil-based paint.
Command hooks are great, but in our last place we had a small kitchen/living room type space and things kept falling off due to fat etc in the air. Just an FYI really, but don't expect them to work well around cooking areas.
(This was in a London flat, victorian loft conversion, so the total room was like 4x5m. Sure most of you aren't so space constrained, especially Americans with your megahouses!)
(This was in a London flat, victorian loft conversion, so the total room was like 4x5m. Sure most of you aren't so space constrained, especially Americans with your megahouses!)
I’ve had mixed results with command strips. A couple lightweight art pieces have stayed up just fine for 2.5 years now. Some slightly larger ones didn’t make it more than a year. I think the issue was not pressing the strip on the wall for long enough.
Ultimately, I think I’m done with command strips. They can work, but with hollow drywall and 1kg paintings it’s easier to use a single nail and picture hanger.
Ultimately, I think I’m done with command strips. They can work, but with hollow drywall and 1kg paintings it’s easier to use a single nail and picture hanger.
I like command strips for lighter things. But once in a while I'll have a picture frame drop off the wall years after it was attached with a command strip. Startling. When I reattach them, I don't use command strips except as stabilizers.
I almost exclusively use Command strips: pictures, mirrors, and other wall decor, as well as seasonal decor.
The removal technique is crucial, pulling out will rip paint off the wall, pulling down will not. That was a lesson learned the hard way.
The removal technique is crucial, pulling out will rip paint off the wall, pulling down will not. That was a lesson learned the hard way.
For drywall/plaster, I'd much rather patch a simple hole than need to clean off the crap left behind by an adhesive strip. I can't speak to the Command brand specifically, but I've found that products touting features that run contrary to their nature ("no damage") generally fail to live up to those claims. And you won't know until it's time to move out.
Something I am not sure was mentioned here was dynamic loads. You could secure a bicycle mount to your wall using one of the aforementioned anchors, however the repetitiveness of bring the bike on and off the mount will cause the drywall to fail, and it will come crashing down at some point. Anchors are good for static loads. For dynamic loads, you will still need to find a stud. This is made even more complicated these days with the introduction of metal studs in so many buildings. At that point, a molly or toggle bolt into a metal stud is going to be your best bet.
Also relevant from the amazing Project Farm youtube tester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHb-Tcvkn7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHb-Tcvkn7M
The best wall anchor review I've seen.
That's an excellent video, and an excellent channel overall, I love his stuff. One thing that is left out of the video (and maybe isn't as useful as I think it is, I guess) is how much damage the anchors do when nothing goes wrong. Assuming you use them for a while, then need to remove them and patch up the result, what are you in for? Some of them come out clean with a small hole, some are going to leave parts in the wall forever, and I imagine mollies might actually do a fair amount of damage to get them out.
Drywall anchors that cannot be easily removed, you should push through the drywall, not try to remove them. As a homeowner, it’s also worth learning basic drywall repair skills. You can buy 2’ x 2’ pieces of drywall and remove and replace a section between studs pretty easily. Learning to tape and mud properly so that it doesn’t show after painting is the hardest part and takes some practice.
GripIt anchors are very good as well, they didn't review those. They are a bit tricky to install if the drywall is thicker or you end up near a stud. Bit they feel sturdy once installed. I've used them for dressers, free standing shelves, etc when a stud didn't line up.
https://www.gripitfixings.com/
https://www.gripitfixings.com/
Yeah, the advantage of these is when you don't have the depth _behind_ the drywall you need to poke through one of the toggles, or even the tip of one of the self-drilling anchors.
I'm just dreading ever taking my shelf down.
I'm just dreading ever taking my shelf down.
Every product on that site is marked "Sold Out"?
Interesting to see the correct advice here for hanging stuff from metal studs. So much of the advice on the internet about this suggests using toggle bolts, but it's actually fine to just use sheetmetal screws directly into sheetmetal studs. You can find datasheets online about how much weight each screw will hold into a given thickness of steel, but it's often surprisingly high -- more than 150lb for even fairly small screws into 25ga steel. For example:
https://www.amsisupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ASO-1-...
https://www.amsisupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ASO-1-...
Speaking from experience, using sheet metal screws in metal studs only works sometimes. A lot of the time the screw doesn't catch, and if you apply a horizontal pulling force, you can just pull the whole thing out. We had mounted some closet brackets to metal studs using sheet metal screws, and it held for a while. But eventually the brackets came out of the wall. We went back in with toggles and it's all good.
I haven't personally experienced what you describe, and I hope I don't! One thing that I have read is that you have be really careful about not making too large a pilot hole.
There’s a great YouTube channel called “Project Farm” where this person performs systematic reviews of products in a given category, usually relating to home improvement. Here’s his video on drywall anchors:
https://youtu.be/lHb-Tcvkn7M
Heavily recommend always supporting with studs. Just a simple 1" (actually 3/4") thick board between the studs will be far more supportive than drywall.
Also don't use drywall screws for anything other than drywall. Use torx screws when putting wood to wood/studs.
Also don't use drywall screws for anything other than drywall. Use torx screws when putting wood to wood/studs.
> Use torx screws when putting wood to wood/studs
Torx is a type of driver and head, not a type of screw. You can buy 'Torx' screws for sheet metal, drywall, wood, or just about anything else, so just looking at the head is not a good idea.
I think what you're trying to recommend are quality construction type screws like Spax or GRK with Torx heads.
Torx is a type of driver and head, not a type of screw. You can buy 'Torx' screws for sheet metal, drywall, wood, or just about anything else, so just looking at the head is not a good idea.
I think what you're trying to recommend are quality construction type screws like Spax or GRK with Torx heads.
Spax or GRK make fantastic screws, but after using Robertson-drive screws all my life, Torx honestly sucks, for the simple reason that the screws don't stay on the bit very well. They will never strip out, but nothing holds the screw onto the bit except the magnet, so starting a screw one-handed is a bit finicky.
However, Robertson drive is a tapered square, which means the bit will lock into the screw with friction, and it can take quite a lot of force to separate them. To illustrate my point, I can put a Robertson screw on a drill, then hold onto the screw and swing the drill around without it falling.
However, Robertson drive is a tapered square, which means the bit will lock into the screw with friction, and it can take quite a lot of force to separate them. To illustrate my point, I can put a Robertson screw on a drill, then hold onto the screw and swing the drill around without it falling.
Robertson and Torx are definitely better than philips.
The two have their own pros and cons though. Robertson definitely makes it easier to keep the screw on a bit. On the other hand, if you've ever had to work with stainless screws and a harder wood (somewhat common in quality built outdoor stuff), I'll take torx any day due to the decreased stripping risk.
Overall though both are still significant improvements over philips and slotted drives!
The two have their own pros and cons though. Robertson definitely makes it easier to keep the screw on a bit. On the other hand, if you've ever had to work with stainless screws and a harder wood (somewhat common in quality built outdoor stuff), I'll take torx any day due to the decreased stripping risk.
Overall though both are still significant improvements over philips and slotted drives!
Philips drive is only good for drywall screws, because the cam-out is a feature. Robertson is ubiquitous in Canada; anything produced in or for the Canadian market tends to use it, and Philips is mostly only found in imported products. Although Tprx is getting more common for stuff like screwing down a subfloor or a deck.
I've slowly been replacing the original outlets in my 70s house, and for some reason they only used slotted drive screws, for everything.
I've slowly been replacing the original outlets in my 70s house, and for some reason they only used slotted drive screws, for everything.
It is way too easy to strip a philips head screw going into wood, so maybe they did mean torx head?
Most of the torx screws you'll find in boxes at a hardware store are deck screws anyway (at least around here), which are really good for attaching wood to wood. Good to be careful though.
Most of the torx screws you'll find in boxes at a hardware store are deck screws anyway (at least around here), which are really good for attaching wood to wood. Good to be careful though.
A tip it took me too long to learn: using an impact driver will make it easier to avoid stripping Phillips screws than using a drill/driver. The way the impact driver delivers impulses at high torque just makes it easier to keep the bit properly engaged, since it kind of "resets" between each impact. The effect was so dramatic to me that the frustration saved was more than worth the cost of a mid-range cordless impact driver.
But a lot of carpenters do prefer square or torx drive just to avoid the whole problem.
But a lot of carpenters do prefer square or torx drive just to avoid the whole problem.
I honestly hadn't thought about this, will give it a shot. I have a decent impact driver that came with my drill, and hardly ever use it. Thanks for the tip!
(although I will keep buying torx screws for the most part :D)
(although I will keep buying torx screws for the most part :D)
an impact will drive a 3" phillips no problem as long as its a decent quality screw. torx seem higher quality which usually eliminates the problem
Yep. Just put in a range hood and the spacing for the mounting screws wouldn't allow for attaching to studs (maybe one if you were lucky, but I was specifically mounting it so the duct would go up between two joists (ie: between two studs).
It came with some big screw-in drywall anchors, but I just sucked it up and cut drywall, put in a bit of 2x4 horizontally between the two studs, patched, and screwed into that. Peace of mind was worth the extra day of dicking around with drywall.
It came with some big screw-in drywall anchors, but I just sucked it up and cut drywall, put in a bit of 2x4 horizontally between the two studs, patched, and screwed into that. Peace of mind was worth the extra day of dicking around with drywall.
I generally agree with you about studs; I don't trust drywall anchors and think they're overused. I hadn't thought about what you're saying regarding putting in another stud, but it's a good idea.
Having said that, that doesn't always work. I've been working on a project the last few months to add something that's missing from a bathroom, and the way the room is configured it's difficult to add something where it needs to be for ergonomic/access reasons without using anchors. To add a stud you'd have to take out quite a bit of wall in adjoining room and the whole project would start to seem excessive.
I've noticed the drywall in that area of our house, too, is really unusual, or at least I'm unfamiliar with it. It's like regular drywall but with an added layer of relatively strong plaster over the surface. It makes the anchors there more secure than what I'm used to (although I'm worried the apparent strength is deceptive).
Having said that, that doesn't always work. I've been working on a project the last few months to add something that's missing from a bathroom, and the way the room is configured it's difficult to add something where it needs to be for ergonomic/access reasons without using anchors. To add a stud you'd have to take out quite a bit of wall in adjoining room and the whole project would start to seem excessive.
I've noticed the drywall in that area of our house, too, is really unusual, or at least I'm unfamiliar with it. It's like regular drywall but with an added layer of relatively strong plaster over the surface. It makes the anchors there more secure than what I'm used to (although I'm worried the apparent strength is deceptive).
> I've noticed the drywall in that area of our house, too, is really unusual, or at least I'm unfamiliar with it. It's like regular drywall but with an added layer of relatively strong plaster over the surface.
Someone likely had the wall "floated" to either fix some wonkiness in the drywall without tearing it down, covering up something like old wallpaper, etc etc. It's a fairly common thing to do to drywall.
Someone likely had the wall "floated" to either fix some wonkiness in the drywall without tearing it down, covering up something like old wallpaper, etc etc. It's a fairly common thing to do to drywall.
If it's between studs you might be able to add a horizontal brace without having to tear out and repair much drywall.
Yes this is a standard thing to do, often called "blocking". Either the framing carpenter or the plumber should do it in new construction. For old work, it's possible to cut out only the drywall where the blocking will be placed, and fasten using screws driven diagonally into the adjoining studs.
Here’s a great video on the same subject if you’re interested. This guy’s data-driven approach to these types of tests is awesome:
https://youtu.be/lHb-Tcvkn7M
Thanks for this. Anchor comparisons are common for diy/carpentry channels. Like you said, the data here makes this a stand out.
The takeaway from these videos in my mind is that when you're hanging something with substantial weight, you really should consider putting your screws into studs.
The takeaway from these videos in my mind is that when you're hanging something with substantial weight, you really should consider putting your screws into studs.
Two things to add:
1. There is a pdf, which you can download here: https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/405146/W291_C...
2. While reading this I wondered why we don't have specialized quality magazines like this in Europe? I guess that America only has two big languages (Spanish and English) whereas Europa has many. So writing any article for a wide public is impossible without an army of transistors
1. There is a pdf, which you can download here: https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/405146/W291_C...
2. While reading this I wondered why we don't have specialized quality magazines like this in Europe? I guess that America only has two big languages (Spanish and English) whereas Europa has many. So writing any article for a wide public is impossible without an army of transistors
[deleted]
[deleted]
Ze Quebecois would like to know your location
I do not believe that America has annexed Quebec. Yet.
Like others, I also thought it was funny this guide is almost completely for drywall or in general not for concrete/brick type walls. Says something about the differences in house building in the US vs rest of the world. I now live in an apartment with drywall for the first time in my life, after about 15 other places.
The one thing I noticed is that those self drilling anchors are rated for a much higher weight than those that I use. In the article they are 50+ lbs and over here 8kg, so around 15 lbs. Don't know if there's a detail I'm missing.
The one thing I noticed is that those self drilling anchors are rated for a much higher weight than those that I use. In the article they are 50+ lbs and over here 8kg, so around 15 lbs. Don't know if there's a detail I'm missing.
I've seen office buildings and higher-end apartments apply drywall on top of the concrete or brick structure of load-beating walls. The reasons are usually adding more noise insulation, and the ability to route power / network / video cabling and have recessed sockets wherever the tenant demands, not where the concrete has a planned cavity.
Because it's never ending battle with drywall here in US/Canada.
It's virtually impossible to hang anything heavier than a picture frame unless there's a stud at that specific location. Nothing from that review works for dynamic load, like a vacuum cleaner mount or a coat rack.
Drywall sucks. I miss my concrete walls.
It's virtually impossible to hang anything heavier than a picture frame unless there's a stud at that specific location. Nothing from that review works for dynamic load, like a vacuum cleaner mount or a coat rack.
Drywall sucks. I miss my concrete walls.
Why does drywall suck? It's durable, easily patchable, cheap, easy to install or modify, and takes paint well. And pretty much any drywall anchor will work to mount a vacuum cleaner charging mount or coat rack to the wall without any issues.
Sure you can, but the mount will crumble over time.
For example, I tried pretty much everything from the post to attach IKEA towel rack (look up "GRUNDTAL"), and all of them started wobbling after few months of use (or abuse).
Currently it's attached with toggle anchors, and the hole is completely crumbled. Try it yourself: find a piece of drywall, attach something with toggle anchors and start twitching it different directions.
For example, I tried pretty much everything from the post to attach IKEA towel rack (look up "GRUNDTAL"), and all of them started wobbling after few months of use (or abuse).
Currently it's attached with toggle anchors, and the hole is completely crumbled. Try it yourself: find a piece of drywall, attach something with toggle anchors and start twitching it different directions.
Like OP suggested, dry wall anchors don't do well with dynamic loads. Every time you put that vacuum back, you will crumble a bit of drywall and weaken your anchors.
My experience says otherwise.
What type of anchor are you using and whats your work load like?
Mounting a handheld vacuum cleaner to drywall, using some plastic anchors that came in the box. I don't know what they're called, but they mushroom in the cavity behind. Two screws, both in anchors. I made sure the screws are tight, so friction prevents the mount from wiggling up and down.
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I find video is the easiest for eyeballing how well they actually hold up.
https://youtu.be/QQWIZNlf9ZE?t=480
There's also an aspect of how straightforward or finicky they are. So some designs have high risk of user error, so for the average homeowner, they end up on average with worse outcomes.
https://youtu.be/QQWIZNlf9ZE?t=480
There's also an aspect of how straightforward or finicky they are. So some designs have high risk of user error, so for the average homeowner, they end up on average with worse outcomes.
(for dry"wall")
Also, the correct answer is this:
https://www.fischer-international.com/en/products/standard-f...
https://www.fischer-international.com/en/products/standard-f...
I had hollow / drywall walls in my old house (it was an older house that had an extra layer built inwards, if that makes any sense), and figuring out what to use was a bit of a pain. But, I managed to hang up some pretty heavy stuff on there.
The one thing was a kitchen cabinet with a fold-out door that would carry all my plates and the like - 30+ kilos? Up to 50? And since it's ikea stuff, it only needed two screws at the top!
I tried plugs that look like the self-drilling anchors described in the article, they ended up taking out a big chunk of the wall, whoops. We settled on the plastic butterfly anchors (number 1 on the picture), which held up just fine - but I did live in constant fear that the wall would give in.
The one thing was a kitchen cabinet with a fold-out door that would carry all my plates and the like - 30+ kilos? Up to 50? And since it's ikea stuff, it only needed two screws at the top!
I tried plugs that look like the self-drilling anchors described in the article, they ended up taking out a big chunk of the wall, whoops. We settled on the plastic butterfly anchors (number 1 on the picture), which held up just fine - but I did live in constant fear that the wall would give in.
Watch out for this. We had badly installed top cabinets loaded with plates and glasses. Its been fine for years. One night i wake up to sounds of apocalypse... Cabinets falling one by one breaking everything inside. Just like some controlled demolition.
Plates and glasses can be quite expensive :((
Plates and glasses can be quite expensive :((
Surely no one installs cabinets with just screwing into the drywall and not into the studs, or some other more solid part?
I’m never surprised by the incompetence or laziness people, even “pros”, do to unseen parts of construction. Many times they know it will work long enough to be someone else’s problem, which is quite unfortunate.
I see the same with tile. Installers skipping waterproofing is quite common. DIY folks trying to make it look pretty so they can sell the home for top dollar, etc. It often creates a much bigger problem for the next person to deal with.
I see the same with tile. Installers skipping waterproofing is quite common. DIY folks trying to make it look pretty so they can sell the home for top dollar, etc. It often creates a much bigger problem for the next person to deal with.
That assumes the cabinets and studs line up. Previous place we were not so lucky when redecorating our kitchen.
We used quality anchors as well as placing an extra horizontal wooden "beam" below the cabinets for them to rest on, to minimize any vertical load on the anchors. The beam we could easily attach to the studs.
Held up for the years we lived there, even with lots of plates and such.
We used quality anchors as well as placing an extra horizontal wooden "beam" below the cabinets for them to rest on, to minimize any vertical load on the anchors. The beam we could easily attach to the studs.
Held up for the years we lived there, even with lots of plates and such.
This seems insane to me. Any cabinet wider than 16" (or in extreme cases 24") is going to overlap with at least one stud. Why not screw into that stud? Any wood cabinet has a perfectly usable cross-piece for that purpose at both the top and bottom. If the cabinet is narrower than 16" I suppose you could chance it but I'd prefer to just move it sideways until it overlapped a stud.
The IKEA cabinets have a flimsy back, it's the sides that take the load. And moving sideways would have meant giving up a cabinet, not ideal in a small kitchen.
I see IKEA has improved their design now, with the cabinets hanging from a metal bar of sorts, which can be mounted to the studs. Guess there's a reason for that...
I see IKEA has improved their design now, with the cabinets hanging from a metal bar of sorts, which can be mounted to the studs. Guess there's a reason for that...
Oh wow. I'm surprised it's legal to sell a box like that under the name "cabinet". This is a product that has had a standard, functional form for centuries.
[deleted]
One would hope, but I think it’s not uncommon to have them installed incorrectly. It happened to a friend of mine a few years ago, and a search turns up plenty of other instances: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=kitchen+cabinets+fell+off+wall&t=i...
If you are hanging Ikea cabinets they also sell long metal rails that the cabinets can hang on instead of the two screws. Then you can screw where the beams are, or just put a lot of anchors. You walls need to be fairly straight though.
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/metod-suspension-rail-galvanise...
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/metod-suspension-rail-galvanise...
This is my favorite. It's hard to find, so I made a quick sketch.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hSCB8ZGGH7tlph-NuNRWa317HCV...
I turn it so the flat side is horizontal. It expands when you put the screw in and it holds quite a bit. You just push it in by hand. When your done, it will pull out and leave just a small(ish) slot. Like I said, they are hard to find, so I take them when I move and re-use them.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hSCB8ZGGH7tlph-NuNRWa317HCV...
I turn it so the flat side is horizontal. It expands when you put the screw in and it holds quite a bit. You just push it in by hand. When your done, it will pull out and leave just a small(ish) slot. Like I said, they are hard to find, so I take them when I move and re-use them.
Love the thoroughness of that piece, and the site in general takes me back to watching episodes on TV of The New Yankee Workshop [1] with Norm Abram [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yankee_Workshop
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Abram
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yankee_Workshop
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Abram
> When I need to secure larger cabinets or other wooden pieces to a drywall or plaster wall and there is no stud accessible, toggle bolts are the anchors I most often turn to.
Or if you have young children. My 3 year olds can literally swing on our towel racks and they won't come out the wall. I've since converted everything in our house to these because things kept getting pulled out by them.
Or if you have young children. My 3 year olds can literally swing on our towel racks and they won't come out the wall. I've since converted everything in our house to these because things kept getting pulled out by them.
No mention of Gorilla Hooks, my favorite method of attaching anything to the wall up to 50 lbs.
Basically you drive a curved piece of metal through the wall, as you drive it in it curves up to impact the drywall above your insertion point, and it has a hook on the end.
It works so much easier then any of the stupid anchors, and I haven't had one fail over 15 years of using them for everything.
Basically you drive a curved piece of metal through the wall, as you drive it in it curves up to impact the drywall above your insertion point, and it has a hook on the end.
It works so much easier then any of the stupid anchors, and I haven't had one fail over 15 years of using them for everything.
This is my choice usualy:
==== Light duty ====
- Just screw to drywall (no anchor)
- cheap hammer-in anchor for concrete and hollow bricks (cheap plastic anchor and special screw with "one-way thread" that can be quickly hammered in like nail, but still can be tightened and/or (un)screwed like normal screw if needed)
==== Heavy duty ====
- Expanding bolts for concrete
- Molly bolts for drywall
==== Super heavy duty ====
- Chemical anchor in concrete or bricks
==== Light duty ====
- Just screw to drywall (no anchor)
- cheap hammer-in anchor for concrete and hollow bricks (cheap plastic anchor and special screw with "one-way thread" that can be quickly hammered in like nail, but still can be tightened and/or (un)screwed like normal screw if needed)
==== Heavy duty ====
- Expanding bolts for concrete
- Molly bolts for drywall
==== Super heavy duty ====
- Chemical anchor in concrete or bricks
I've used the Toggler Snaptoggle many times to mount large televisions 75-80 inches and they were fantastic.
I used them last year to mount a climbing hangboard to a plaster and lath wall. I used about 6 of them and I'm roughly 180lbs, it feels absolutely solid. I'll definitely be using them in the future for high weight situations.
After a lot of research I settled on SnapToggles for floor-to-ceiling shelving mounted to lath and plaster. About as easy to install as could reasonably be expected for the wall type and seems to be holding well.
mounted a tv in my bedroom into metal studs using snaptoggle, i love them.
This is very useful, wish I would have had it before I did a major reconstruction. That said, after 1-2 weeks of working with wood, concrete and bricks, you know exactly what you need and develop a feel for it very quickly. Initially just ask at the construction store, and just start.
They're kind of fiddly to install, but when an inspector demanded additional handicap grab bars for which we hadn't installed blocking, I had good luck with a product called "WingIts". As in, after I installed the grab bar, I could lift my fat ass up with it.
I’ve used Geefix for installing floating cabinets in the bathroom, which weren’t mentioned in the article. They claim to hold a lot of weight: https://www.geefix.com/
I was surprised they don’t advertise their strength rating on their main site
Depends if you consider "one adult man" as a unit of measurement
Edit: they do actually have some numbers, the last image in this photo gallery here: https://www.geefix.com/gallery/
I think this is just down to bad/amateur website design
Edit: they do actually have some numbers, the last image in this photo gallery here: https://www.geefix.com/gallery/
I think this is just down to bad/amateur website design
I think the goal of this article was to highlight options that US buyers would have at their local home improvement or hardware stores. I've seen every one of the recommended items at Lowes or Home Depot over the past several decades, and have never heard of nor seen Geefix (which, btw, looks like a simple variation of the pull toggles highlighted in the article).
Geefix are easy to source on Amazon and other online retailers. But yeah, not at Home Depot or Lowe's. But then again, most wood workers (target of audience of that website) probably already source the tools and materials they use from a variety of non-big-box stores.
Stupid question:
Assume I have anchors rated at 20lbs. I put up a shelf using 4 anchors. The shelf weighs 10lbs. Should I assume that the shelf can hold 70lbs of evenly distributed weight?
Ugh - I’m living this right now trying to figure out the best (or “a good”) way to hang new interior doors into so-called steel studs, which are actually just box-section aluminum.
I've had good luck with "Timely" brand door frames:
https://www.timelyframes.com/architects/application/app-meta...
https://www.timelyframes.com/architects/application/app-meta...
I appreciate you sharing your experience.
Unfortunately(?) I picked prehung doors to go in (everybody was made aware of the installation environment), so I’ve got-what-I’ve-got at this moment. Unclear if I got suckered or not. I told my vendor what I was dealing with, where I wanted end, a never any flags raised. Getting help is like pulling teeth - this all seems simple enough (though I’m not going to assume there’s nothing to know - I’m no expert) which makes it all the more frustrating.
Unfortunately(?) I picked prehung doors to go in (everybody was made aware of the installation environment), so I’ve got-what-I’ve-got at this moment. Unclear if I got suckered or not. I told my vendor what I was dealing with, where I wanted end, a never any flags raised. Getting help is like pulling teeth - this all seems simple enough (though I’m not going to assume there’s nothing to know - I’m no expert) which makes it all the more frustrating.
If the problem is just getting something that will hold in metal studs, I'd go with some nice beefy (say 3/8" diameter? that will seem like overkill to some people) self-tapping metal screws. Set the drag on your drill or impact so it stops before bottoming out, then go the rest of the way carefully so you don't strip out the hole.
Very likely I’ll do something like this. Very frustrating to me the “experts” I’m working with can’t satisfy my fear here, but perhaps I’m overthinking it. I’m not too worried about a catastrophic cockup as much as some slight annoyance that I’ll have to live with forever, and then somebody coming out of the woodwork saying “oh, you should have…” ;)
So glad they mentioned the Cobra Driller Toggle. These have saved me much frustration. I wish I’d discovered them sooner.
Just in time! Doing remodeling and attaching things to walls is a big deal.
Right now I have a 55" TV wall-mounted with nothing but staples.
[0]https://kabebijin.net/products/detail.php?product_id=122