Super Mario 64 has been ported to iOS(old.reddit.com)
old.reddit.com
Super Mario 64 has been ported to iOS
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_been_ported_to_ios/
173 comments
Wouldn't the original N64 already achieve this ratio?
The original N64 uses 19 watts(as printed on its power supply) to run a 93.75 Mhz processor. Actual usage may vary depending on the game.
The Raspberry Pi Zero is less than 5 watts I believe? And thats a 1 Ghz processor with accelerated GPU. Plenty of opportunity to bring the clock rate down. Now what if you manage to run the game on bare metal? How low can you take the power consumption then? maybe 1W? Maybe less? I've thought about how to even measure this. I don't think those Cheapo tools on Amazon can go lower than 1 watt.
We really benefited in so many ways thanks to the reduction from 350nm to modern nodes.
I'm sure many will think its a silly idea but it came from this story I once read about the co-founder/CTO of Tesla: JB Straubel.
Whenever he used to go to a hotel he would measure the power efficiency of the lightbulbs and actually replace them with more efficient bulbs. He was obsessed with extreme power efficiency.
I also recall during the first Tesla AI talk that when designing their computer they focused on how many pJ each instruction burned.
This story just remained in my head and comes up because the idea of optimizing down to this level just wrinkles my brain! :)
[1]:https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=5196
The Raspberry Pi Zero is less than 5 watts I believe? And thats a 1 Ghz processor with accelerated GPU. Plenty of opportunity to bring the clock rate down. Now what if you manage to run the game on bare metal? How low can you take the power consumption then? maybe 1W? Maybe less? I've thought about how to even measure this. I don't think those Cheapo tools on Amazon can go lower than 1 watt.
We really benefited in so many ways thanks to the reduction from 350nm to modern nodes.
I'm sure many will think its a silly idea but it came from this story I once read about the co-founder/CTO of Tesla: JB Straubel.
Whenever he used to go to a hotel he would measure the power efficiency of the lightbulbs and actually replace them with more efficient bulbs. He was obsessed with extreme power efficiency.
I also recall during the first Tesla AI talk that when designing their computer they focused on how many pJ each instruction burned.
This story just remained in my head and comes up because the idea of optimizing down to this level just wrinkles my brain! :)
[1]:https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=5196
Interesting to see that the N64 only used 19watts. I was expecting a much larger number.
http://www.tpcdb.com/product.php?id=2602
http://www.tpcdb.com/product.php?id=2602
Can anyone explain the obsession with this game in particular?
As a cultural phenomenon or how it stands the test of time or what that particular porting community thinks about anything...
As a cultural phenomenon or how it stands the test of time or what that particular porting community thinks about anything...
My first memory was that it was the first 3D platform game that didn't suck - they designed platforming challenges that worked without the player feeling like they'd been screwed over by the camera. You barely needed to touch the camera, and the stick responded very intuitively to what's on the (very low res) screen.
(In 1997, directly controlling a character with one stick was not an obviously correct choice - some games had "tank" controls where one stick rotated the character/camera and the other went forwards and backwards! Imagine how much that used to suck)
Plus it was a huge game, full of secrets, without being overwhelming. The castle & level structure was easy to understand so you weren't lost.
Also it was tremendously charming by itself, but nostalgic for the crowd who'd grown up on the NES and SNES, like suddenly this kids game we'd known for 14 years can be a whole 3D world - and no other game franchises had reinvented themselves so successfully over such a long period.
Finally it came at a time when the PlayStation was so dominant, and asserted that grown up games didn't just want EDM & edgy violence (to parody Sony's 1997 marketing). In contrast Nintendo had produced a masterpiece through game design discipline, and without compromising this charming childlike aesthetic.
I guess these days some views might look a bit flat but I'm not sure they've improved on the Mario formula since.
(In 1997, directly controlling a character with one stick was not an obviously correct choice - some games had "tank" controls where one stick rotated the character/camera and the other went forwards and backwards! Imagine how much that used to suck)
Plus it was a huge game, full of secrets, without being overwhelming. The castle & level structure was easy to understand so you weren't lost.
Also it was tremendously charming by itself, but nostalgic for the crowd who'd grown up on the NES and SNES, like suddenly this kids game we'd known for 14 years can be a whole 3D world - and no other game franchises had reinvented themselves so successfully over such a long period.
Finally it came at a time when the PlayStation was so dominant, and asserted that grown up games didn't just want EDM & edgy violence (to parody Sony's 1997 marketing). In contrast Nintendo had produced a masterpiece through game design discipline, and without compromising this charming childlike aesthetic.
I guess these days some views might look a bit flat but I'm not sure they've improved on the Mario formula since.
They actually published papers in Game Programming Gems about how the camera works which was the real insight. To work right, it has to participate in the physics system, attached with a spring to the back of the character you're playing as. When you do that, the control coordinate system being relative to the camera rather than the player seems natural to the playter. You almost need tank controls when the camera can just jump willy nilly, as the remasters of the original Resident Evils have proved.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. We all know Lakitu is an accomplished cameraman, all the merit is his for being able to keep up with Mario :)
Presumably it can't just be a spring obeying Hooke's law F=kx, or else the camera would "bounce" back and forth, right?
Yes, springs in game physics engines typically have damping factors and other variables than just what's need to Hooke's law. For instance, Unity's Spring Joint: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/class-SpringJoint.html
That being said if you don't model inertia of the spring (or at least what it's connected to, in this case the camera itself), would you have any oscillations? I thought inertia was a separate concept from Hooke's law, but it's been a while since I've touched high school style classical physics.
That being said if you don't model inertia of the spring (or at least what it's connected to, in this case the camera itself), would you have any oscillations? I thought inertia was a separate concept from Hooke's law, but it's been a while since I've touched high school style classical physics.
> I guess these days some views might look a bit flat but I'm not sure they've improved on the Mario formula since.
^ this
It has been decades, but you can still put people in front of Mario 64 and they will still instantly have fun ... it's just a joy to move Mario around in that game.
^ this
It has been decades, but you can still put people in front of Mario 64 and they will still instantly have fun ... it's just a joy to move Mario around in that game.
> tank" controls where one stick rotated the character/camera and the other went forwards and backwards!
That's not tank controls. Tank controls is right stick controls the right side (tread), left stick controls the left side. To turn to the left, push left forward and right back. To go forward, push both forward. Impure tank controls allow for strafing, both sticks left moves you left, both sticks out or both sticks in does something special.
There were some games that did use two sticks to manage movement in other ways like you said though, but that wasn't tank controls.
I could argue that Mario 64 still sucked, but it sucked a lot less than other 3d platformers.
That's not tank controls. Tank controls is right stick controls the right side (tread), left stick controls the left side. To turn to the left, push left forward and right back. To go forward, push both forward. Impure tank controls allow for strafing, both sticks left moves you left, both sticks out or both sticks in does something special.
There were some games that did use two sticks to manage movement in other ways like you said though, but that wasn't tank controls.
I could argue that Mario 64 still sucked, but it sucked a lot less than other 3d platformers.
Their definition is close to what most people mean when they say tank controls. It just doesn't need 2 sticks.[1]
Maybe it's like chiclet keyboards. It used to mean rubber keys. Now it means bezel separated keys.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_controls
Maybe it's like chiclet keyboards. It used to mean rubber keys. Now it means bezel separated keys.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_controls
>(In 1997, directly controlling a character with one stick was not an obviously correct choice - some games had "tank" controls where one stick rotated the character/camera and the other went forwards and backwards! Imagine how much that used to suck)
isn't that how camera/vehicles control work today?
isn't that how camera/vehicles control work today?
The typical control scheme today is that one stick controls the camera and the other moves the character (in any direction). The scheme the OP is describing is one set of controls for rotating the character and another set for moving forward and backwards.
The problem with the description above is that the games described didn't use "sticks" for this -- the N64 was the first console released with a (single) thumbstick (in Mario 64, you use the four yellow "C" face buttons to reposition the camera). The PlayStation Dual Analog controller, with its dual thumbsticks, didn't come out until a year after Mario 64.
The forward-back-rotate scheme was more common as a way to implement 3D movement with a directional pad or the arrow/WASD keys on a keyboard. (What obsoleted it on the PC wasn't dual stick controls but the invention of mouselook.)
It's also worth noting that a lot of highly regarded early 3D games had fixed cameras not because of the lack of a workable control scheme but because it allowed the use of prerendered background graphics and/or reduced the complexity of the scene that needed to be rendered (Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil, etc.).
The problem with the description above is that the games described didn't use "sticks" for this -- the N64 was the first console released with a (single) thumbstick (in Mario 64, you use the four yellow "C" face buttons to reposition the camera). The PlayStation Dual Analog controller, with its dual thumbsticks, didn't come out until a year after Mario 64.
The forward-back-rotate scheme was more common as a way to implement 3D movement with a directional pad or the arrow/WASD keys on a keyboard. (What obsoleted it on the PC wasn't dual stick controls but the invention of mouselook.)
It's also worth noting that a lot of highly regarded early 3D games had fixed cameras not because of the lack of a workable control scheme but because it allowed the use of prerendered background graphics and/or reduced the complexity of the scene that needed to be rendered (Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil, etc.).
The PlayStation Dual Analog controller, with its dual thumbsticks, didn't come out until a year after Mario 64.
I had totally forgotten that, and of course that's all the more impressive. Like cavepeople, Playstation users were manipulating 3D cameras with toggled presents (or just not at all).
I had totally forgotten that, and of course that's all the more impressive. Like cavepeople, Playstation users were manipulating 3D cameras with toggled presents (or just not at all).
Mario responds SMOOTHLY and INSTANTLY but not physically accurately to the analog joystick controller and buttons, which was the genius of Miyamoto's "outside-in" physical-world-first design methodology, which he describes in his GDC keynotes, that I quoted and linked to here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28814555
>In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do.
Also there's some great stuff about the controller and physics design here:
https://shmuplations.com/mario64/
>Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews
>—Mario 64 is the lead-off title for the new Nintendo 64… but how did the project first get started?
>Miyamoto: Well, in the beginning… we were working on something really simple—deceptively simple, even, from the perspective of the team that would go on to finish the huge, final game. (laughs) There was a room made of simple lego-like blocks, and Mario and Luigi could run around in there, climb slopes, jump around, etc. We were trying to get the controls right with an analogue 3D stick, and once that felt smooth, we knew we were halfway there. And so, along the way, we realized wanted to create a slightly larger area for them to move around in…
>—I don’t know if “slightly” is the right word there…
>Miyamoto: Well, that’s how it is with all our developments. (laughs) For this game things were especially vague in the beginning, because we developed it in tandem with the N64 hardware, and we didn’t know exactly how powerful the hardware would turn out to be. That’s why, at the very beginning, we actually did our work on a large, powerful computer that simulated what we guessed the N64 hardware specs would be… then, well, we got things to a point where the controls were nice and responsive, and we thought this could be the foundation for a game. But the problem was, it had all been made on this massive computer that cost tens of thousands of dollars. No one yet believed that we’d be able to make something like this on a little 250$ machine like the N64. (laughs)
>However, once the N64 prototype was finished and delivered to us, we saw that it handled the movement and controls almost perfectly. That was the moment we first realized this was going to work, so we quickly dashed off a planning spec sheet for the game. When the staff saw how long it was, they said they’d been lied to—no one told them they would have to make this massive game! (laughs) That’s how we make games at Nintendo, though: we get the fundamentals solid first, then do as much with that core concept as our time and ambition will allow.
>—And in this case, that fundamental basis was the model you made with Mario and Luigi running around that room.
>Miyamoto: Yes, it was being able to move Mario and Luigi around with the 3D control stick, and being able to change the camera view with the press of a button. One of our big development themes was letting the players move Mario around any way they wanted. We wanted to make a game where just moving Mario around was fun.
>—People have described Mario 64 as “interactive animation”, and I think that term fits perfectly. Mario is truly a joy to control.
>Miyamoto: That’s why I think it would have been great if we’d been able to make it two-player, with Mario and Luigi. But if we had done it wrong, it would have turned into a fighting game or something (laughs), so we’re leaving that challenge for next time.
>—I really like all the nuance to Mario’s movement. It looks very natural. Miyamoto: That was all done by Nishida and Koizumi. I should have told them to make the jump look cooler though. (laughs) About all we told them in terms of guidance was to create as many different movements as they could.
>Koizumi: I didn’t think it would end up being THAT many. (laughs)
>Nishida: Koizumi created the animation data, and I did the programming. I counted them all up, and there were 193 different animation patterns! And if you include the 50 or so animations that we created but ultimately rejected, it comes to nearly 250.
[...]
>—I got used to the 3D stick’s analogue controls very quickly, and it felt completely natural to use in Mario 64, but I’m guessing it was actually very difficult to get right?
>Miyamoto: It was a huge challenge, definitely. Now that they’ve had time to play it, people tell us it feels natural, but when we exhibited Mario 64 at the expo in November, we heard a lot of people say “I don’t know about this, the controls feel really wobbly and slippery…” We weren’t about to back down that easily, though. We dug in and pushed forward, knowing that this kind of response is to be expected if you’re trying to change the culture. And yet, while we were all telling ourselves “walking around leisurely can be fun too!”, I have to admit that internally, I was a little worried… normally games have a faster pace. (laughs)
>Ultimately, though, we really did want to change the culture of gaming, and it was in that spirit that we made Mario 64. And that’s reflected in the controls, and how long it takes to accelerate.
>—When I played that version in November, if I can speak honestly, my first impression was that I wanted the controls to be a little more responsive. But when I played the final version, I felt the responsiveness fit the game just right.
>Miyamoto: We tightened the springs a bit on Mario, maybe? I don’t know. (laughs) In any event, though, Mario 64 required a lot of difficult physics calculations. This is an exaggeration to make my point, but when Mario is moving like a car, or moving like a human, or moving like an airplane… all those require different physics calculations. His different jumps all require different calculations too. It was very annoying.
>—I remember you remarking that Wild Trax (Stunt Race FX) involved a lot of car-related mathematics too. Mario’s movement likewise has a proper sense of centrifugal force and “braking” friction… I noticed it when I was playing, and it reminded me of that conversation about Wild Trax.
>Nishida: It’s not actually “real” physics, of course—we’ve fiddled with them a bit. Gravity, friction, resistance… these have properly set parameters, but if you rely on the actual laws of physics too much it doesn’t really make for a good game. The floatiness of Mario’s jump, for example, works great in a game, but a real airplane would never be able to fly at that speed.
>Miyamoto: Yeah, it really was difficult! It was like we had to go back to middle school and learn basic physics concepts all over again—like what does it mean for a substance to be at rest? I never thought I’d have to study those things again at my age. (laughs) But that was also part of the fun. [...]
Also:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2322/game_feel_the_se...
>Game Feel: The Secret Ingredient
>[...] There are lots reasons for this, but the main one is that game feel is slippery. It’s mostly subconscious, a combination of sights, sounds, and instant response to action. It’s one of those ‘know it when you feel it’ kinds of things. If it’s off by just a little bit, a game’s goose is cooked. If it’s “responsive”, “tight”, and “deep”, it can be magical.
>As a canonical example, consider Super Mario 64. The feel of steering Mario around in Super Mario 64 fills me, to this day, with thoughtless joy. Especially in Bomb-Omb Battlefield where there’s very little pressure or structure, I love to just run and bounce and spin, experiencing the sheer kinetic joy of controlling Mario. Control, intent, and instructions flow from me into the game as quickly as I can think.
>Feedback returns just as quickly, letting me adjust and fine-tune my instructions. When a game feels like this I’m hooked, ready to spend endless hours discovering every nook and cranny. Considering the near-universal reverence for Mario 64 among both players and creators of video games -- to say nothing of the millions of copies it sold -- I think it’s safe to say I’m not alone in enjoying the feel of Mario 64. As a developer, though, I have to wonder: wherein lies the magic? What’s behind the curtain? A huge part of it is the feel. [...]
>Breaking the game down by “granules” this way, it seems that Mario 64 is a game about feel. The thing you spend most of your time doing is moving Mario around, interacting through the controller at a tactile, kinesthetic level. It’s the fundamental activity of Super Mario 64 and it feels great. It has its quirks and input ambiguities, but this sensation is the foundation the rest of the game sits on.
>“Before any of the levels had been created Mr. Miyamoto had Mario running around and picking up objects in a small ‘garden’ which he uses in all his games to test gameplay elements. “A lot of the animation was actually in there before any of the game” explains Goddard. “The Mario that he had running around basically looked the same as he did in the final version. Mario’s movement is based on good physics, but you have bits on top that you plug in so you can do things you shouldn’t be able to do. They spent a lot of time working on the swimming, it’s harder than running to get the feeling right, they didn’t want you to avoid the water, the wanted to make it an advantage and fun to dive in.”
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28814555
>In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do.
Also there's some great stuff about the controller and physics design here:
https://shmuplations.com/mario64/
>Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews
>—Mario 64 is the lead-off title for the new Nintendo 64… but how did the project first get started?
>Miyamoto: Well, in the beginning… we were working on something really simple—deceptively simple, even, from the perspective of the team that would go on to finish the huge, final game. (laughs) There was a room made of simple lego-like blocks, and Mario and Luigi could run around in there, climb slopes, jump around, etc. We were trying to get the controls right with an analogue 3D stick, and once that felt smooth, we knew we were halfway there. And so, along the way, we realized wanted to create a slightly larger area for them to move around in…
>—I don’t know if “slightly” is the right word there…
>Miyamoto: Well, that’s how it is with all our developments. (laughs) For this game things were especially vague in the beginning, because we developed it in tandem with the N64 hardware, and we didn’t know exactly how powerful the hardware would turn out to be. That’s why, at the very beginning, we actually did our work on a large, powerful computer that simulated what we guessed the N64 hardware specs would be… then, well, we got things to a point where the controls were nice and responsive, and we thought this could be the foundation for a game. But the problem was, it had all been made on this massive computer that cost tens of thousands of dollars. No one yet believed that we’d be able to make something like this on a little 250$ machine like the N64. (laughs)
>However, once the N64 prototype was finished and delivered to us, we saw that it handled the movement and controls almost perfectly. That was the moment we first realized this was going to work, so we quickly dashed off a planning spec sheet for the game. When the staff saw how long it was, they said they’d been lied to—no one told them they would have to make this massive game! (laughs) That’s how we make games at Nintendo, though: we get the fundamentals solid first, then do as much with that core concept as our time and ambition will allow.
>—And in this case, that fundamental basis was the model you made with Mario and Luigi running around that room.
>Miyamoto: Yes, it was being able to move Mario and Luigi around with the 3D control stick, and being able to change the camera view with the press of a button. One of our big development themes was letting the players move Mario around any way they wanted. We wanted to make a game where just moving Mario around was fun.
>—People have described Mario 64 as “interactive animation”, and I think that term fits perfectly. Mario is truly a joy to control.
>Miyamoto: That’s why I think it would have been great if we’d been able to make it two-player, with Mario and Luigi. But if we had done it wrong, it would have turned into a fighting game or something (laughs), so we’re leaving that challenge for next time.
>—I really like all the nuance to Mario’s movement. It looks very natural. Miyamoto: That was all done by Nishida and Koizumi. I should have told them to make the jump look cooler though. (laughs) About all we told them in terms of guidance was to create as many different movements as they could.
>Koizumi: I didn’t think it would end up being THAT many. (laughs)
>Nishida: Koizumi created the animation data, and I did the programming. I counted them all up, and there were 193 different animation patterns! And if you include the 50 or so animations that we created but ultimately rejected, it comes to nearly 250.
[...]
>—I got used to the 3D stick’s analogue controls very quickly, and it felt completely natural to use in Mario 64, but I’m guessing it was actually very difficult to get right?
>Miyamoto: It was a huge challenge, definitely. Now that they’ve had time to play it, people tell us it feels natural, but when we exhibited Mario 64 at the expo in November, we heard a lot of people say “I don’t know about this, the controls feel really wobbly and slippery…” We weren’t about to back down that easily, though. We dug in and pushed forward, knowing that this kind of response is to be expected if you’re trying to change the culture. And yet, while we were all telling ourselves “walking around leisurely can be fun too!”, I have to admit that internally, I was a little worried… normally games have a faster pace. (laughs)
>Ultimately, though, we really did want to change the culture of gaming, and it was in that spirit that we made Mario 64. And that’s reflected in the controls, and how long it takes to accelerate.
>—When I played that version in November, if I can speak honestly, my first impression was that I wanted the controls to be a little more responsive. But when I played the final version, I felt the responsiveness fit the game just right.
>Miyamoto: We tightened the springs a bit on Mario, maybe? I don’t know. (laughs) In any event, though, Mario 64 required a lot of difficult physics calculations. This is an exaggeration to make my point, but when Mario is moving like a car, or moving like a human, or moving like an airplane… all those require different physics calculations. His different jumps all require different calculations too. It was very annoying.
>—I remember you remarking that Wild Trax (Stunt Race FX) involved a lot of car-related mathematics too. Mario’s movement likewise has a proper sense of centrifugal force and “braking” friction… I noticed it when I was playing, and it reminded me of that conversation about Wild Trax.
>Nishida: It’s not actually “real” physics, of course—we’ve fiddled with them a bit. Gravity, friction, resistance… these have properly set parameters, but if you rely on the actual laws of physics too much it doesn’t really make for a good game. The floatiness of Mario’s jump, for example, works great in a game, but a real airplane would never be able to fly at that speed.
>Miyamoto: Yeah, it really was difficult! It was like we had to go back to middle school and learn basic physics concepts all over again—like what does it mean for a substance to be at rest? I never thought I’d have to study those things again at my age. (laughs) But that was also part of the fun. [...]
Also:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2322/game_feel_the_se...
>Game Feel: The Secret Ingredient
>[...] There are lots reasons for this, but the main one is that game feel is slippery. It’s mostly subconscious, a combination of sights, sounds, and instant response to action. It’s one of those ‘know it when you feel it’ kinds of things. If it’s off by just a little bit, a game’s goose is cooked. If it’s “responsive”, “tight”, and “deep”, it can be magical.
>As a canonical example, consider Super Mario 64. The feel of steering Mario around in Super Mario 64 fills me, to this day, with thoughtless joy. Especially in Bomb-Omb Battlefield where there’s very little pressure or structure, I love to just run and bounce and spin, experiencing the sheer kinetic joy of controlling Mario. Control, intent, and instructions flow from me into the game as quickly as I can think.
>Feedback returns just as quickly, letting me adjust and fine-tune my instructions. When a game feels like this I’m hooked, ready to spend endless hours discovering every nook and cranny. Considering the near-universal reverence for Mario 64 among both players and creators of video games -- to say nothing of the millions of copies it sold -- I think it’s safe to say I’m not alone in enjoying the feel of Mario 64. As a developer, though, I have to wonder: wherein lies the magic? What’s behind the curtain? A huge part of it is the feel. [...]
>Breaking the game down by “granules” this way, it seems that Mario 64 is a game about feel. The thing you spend most of your time doing is moving Mario around, interacting through the controller at a tactile, kinesthetic level. It’s the fundamental activity of Super Mario 64 and it feels great. It has its quirks and input ambiguities, but this sensation is the foundation the rest of the game sits on.
>“Before any of the levels had been created Mr. Miyamoto had Mario running around and picking up objects in a small ‘garden’ which he uses in all his games to test gameplay elements. “A lot of the animation was actually in there before any of the game” explains Goddard. “The Mario that he had running around basically looked the same as he did in the final version. Mario’s movement is based on good physics, but you have bits on top that you plug in so you can do things you shouldn’t be able to do. They spent a lot of time working on the swimming, it’s harder than running to get the feeling right, they didn’t want you to avoid the water, the wanted to make it an advantage and fun to dive in.”
Thank you for this!
> isn't that how camera/vehicles control work today?
And isn't it how the controls in, say, Minecraft work? One stick to rotate the character/camera and the other to move and strafe?
And isn't it how the controls in, say, Minecraft work? One stick to rotate the character/camera and the other to move and strafe?
Several reasons: 1) it's the ultimate codifier of the 3D platformer genre, 2) it pioneered the idea of a "camera" in third-person 3D games, 3) it was a cultural touchstone in its own day, and is still reaping the benefits of nostalgia, 4) like every physics-based third-person 3D game it has both a high skill ceiling and a bevy of exploitable bugs, making it excellent for speedruns (which are the primary means by which classic games remain in the limelight these days), 5) because of the prior point as well as its cultural impact it was a centralizing influence on the nascent speedrunning community in the mid-2000s, giving it outsized cultural importance in that context as well, 6) it's a Mario game, which remains a relevant brand to this day, 7) it's a pretty decent game (although, naturally, in many aspects it will compare unfavorably to its descendants).
Super Mario 64 and The Ocarina of Time elevated open-world 3D game play. So much of gaming to this point, even 3D gaming, was dungeon crawling, or traversing linear paths and story lines, or killing opponents in a closed arena. SM64 and Ocarina really transported the player into a whole new world.
The camera work was almost perfect, and the subtleties of the system were revolutionary. The Wikipedia article[1], and this picture in particular[2] provide a good description.
25 years later I think of SM64 as the Citizen Kane of video games. Citizen Kane provided a glimpse of what the medium was capable of; it changed peoples perception of what a movie could be. Virtually every movie since has either been directly inspired by CK or has internalized its zeitgeist. Super Mario 64 played the same role for video games.
Or - it could that since I grew up playing SM64 I've anchored to it and feel it's influence more deeply than history warrants :D
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_64#Influence
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_64#/media/File:Sup...
The camera work was almost perfect, and the subtleties of the system were revolutionary. The Wikipedia article[1], and this picture in particular[2] provide a good description.
25 years later I think of SM64 as the Citizen Kane of video games. Citizen Kane provided a glimpse of what the medium was capable of; it changed peoples perception of what a movie could be. Virtually every movie since has either been directly inspired by CK or has internalized its zeitgeist. Super Mario 64 played the same role for video games.
Or - it could that since I grew up playing SM64 I've anchored to it and feel it's influence more deeply than history warrants :D
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_64#Influence
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_64#/media/File:Sup...
It's a lot of factors. It was a lot of peoples' first 3D game experience, it's old enough that a lot of people who were enchanted by it in their childhood are old enough to dig into it now, it's an early 3D game with relatively simple and primitive techniques that were state of the art for the time, and it's had a ton of time put into decompilation, and a few major leaks to help understand how everything fits together.
It's also a very good game, and the controls and mechanics are more responsive and smooth than you'd expect for such an early 3D game.
Mario games have all had a lot of effort put into understanding the way the code works under the hood. The NES Mario games have also been heavily broken down and analyzed, but there's not as much stuff you can do that's as exciting as what you can with Mario 64.
It's also a very good game, and the controls and mechanics are more responsive and smooth than you'd expect for such an early 3D game.
Mario games have all had a lot of effort put into understanding the way the code works under the hood. The NES Mario games have also been heavily broken down and analyzed, but there's not as much stuff you can do that's as exciting as what you can with Mario 64.
Super Mario 64 was a legendary game that basically set the standard for 3D platforming and took a gaming icon from 2D into the 3D realm.
It's also a very straightforward game with few "tricks" to get the most speed out of the hardware. (Matter of fact, it's suboptimal in some ways devs have improved on.) Meaning that decompiling it yields reasonable high-level code. Unlike NES or SNES games, all the graphics stuff was made via draw calls into an API in the console's ROM -- not by manipulating graphics hardware registers directly. So reimplementing that graphics API in terms of, say, OpenGL or Direct3D, automatically yields you high-performance native graphics without having to emulate a hardware part.
So it really is an ideal game for this kind of work in multiple respects: it's familiar, has cross-generational appeal, easy to get high-level code for, and easy to make changes to.
It's also a very straightforward game with few "tricks" to get the most speed out of the hardware. (Matter of fact, it's suboptimal in some ways devs have improved on.) Meaning that decompiling it yields reasonable high-level code. Unlike NES or SNES games, all the graphics stuff was made via draw calls into an API in the console's ROM -- not by manipulating graphics hardware registers directly. So reimplementing that graphics API in terms of, say, OpenGL or Direct3D, automatically yields you high-performance native graphics without having to emulate a hardware part.
So it really is an ideal game for this kind of work in multiple respects: it's familiar, has cross-generational appeal, easy to get high-level code for, and easy to make changes to.
Nintendo 64 and the original PlayStation were a paradigm shift in home consoles, with their native support for 3D.
At the time of the announcement of these platforms, Super Mario 64 became a symbol representing the Nintendo 64. Sony wanted a mascot to represent them, and Naughty Dog convinced Sony to pick Crash Bandicoot as the mascot for the original PlayStation.
As such, the marketing material and the press coverage talked a lot not only about N64 vs PS, but also gave a lot of attention to Super Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot.
And in turn this meant that those of us who were kids at the time ended up playing these games a lot on N64 and PS respectively.
Is it just nostalgia, or is there something more? Hard to say, but either way I think both these games will forever hold a special place in the hearts of many.
Beyond that, porting efforts in general are interesting for their own sake.
At the time of the announcement of these platforms, Super Mario 64 became a symbol representing the Nintendo 64. Sony wanted a mascot to represent them, and Naughty Dog convinced Sony to pick Crash Bandicoot as the mascot for the original PlayStation.
As such, the marketing material and the press coverage talked a lot not only about N64 vs PS, but also gave a lot of attention to Super Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot.
And in turn this meant that those of us who were kids at the time ended up playing these games a lot on N64 and PS respectively.
Is it just nostalgia, or is there something more? Hard to say, but either way I think both these games will forever hold a special place in the hearts of many.
Beyond that, porting efforts in general are interesting for their own sake.
Crash, Croft, and a couple other games I'm forgetting competed in mind share as the mascot of the original PlayStation, but there was never an official mascot.
I used to love reading the gaming magazines while my parents shopped and it seemed like every other month there was an article asking why Sony doesn't have a mascot yet and who it should be.
I used to love reading the gaming magazines while my parents shopped and it seemed like every other month there was an article asking why Sony doesn't have a mascot yet and who it should be.
Because even today the movement and agility is unparalleled. There is no other game that feels a fluid and solid when moving your character as Mario 64. At least in my opinion
There aren't many, but about every 3D mario has kept up with SM64 in that regard, the freedom in Odyssey might even be too much.
Outside the series, A Hat in Time does it pretty well too.
Outside the series, A Hat in Time does it pretty well too.
In a well functioning game industry, A Hat in Time should be in top selling charts of every gaming platforms.
I don’t know if negative reviews even exists for this game.
I don’t know if negative reviews even exists for this game.
The general obsession is just that it was the game that came with the Nintendo 64, so everyone who owned an N64 has played it, so there's a lot of nostalgia to go around.
The secondary obsession, particular to the speedgame community, is that it's one of the first games to have a formalized, worldwide competitive speedrunning scene develop around it; and there's a shocking level of depth-of-mastery to the SM64 speedgame (i.e. people have been trying to beat the game faster for years, and they're still discovering new ways of doing that.)
For the rom-hacking community (to which the game reverse-engineering community is closely associated), I'd say it's a combination of two factors:
1. SM64 has received very little love from Nintendo since its release—many people were anticipating that Nintendo's (temporary) Switch port of the game would at least be modified to be playable in widescreen, but it wasn't. So the community has taken it upon itself to implement the QoL fixes that Nintendo doesn't seem willing to give them.
2. SM64 has many underutilized engine elements, similar to SMB3 or SMW; like those games, it's ripe for modding and further exploration. (It might be said that Nintendo "leaves a lot of level design opportunities on the table" with each of their games.) Games like SMB3 and SMW, which are easy enough to mod, have had heavily-active modding scenes for decades, with many level editors written, new engine plugins developed, etc. But SM64, and N64 games in general, are harder to mod as compiled objects; you really do have to decompile them to have any hope of doing something new or different with them.
The secondary obsession, particular to the speedgame community, is that it's one of the first games to have a formalized, worldwide competitive speedrunning scene develop around it; and there's a shocking level of depth-of-mastery to the SM64 speedgame (i.e. people have been trying to beat the game faster for years, and they're still discovering new ways of doing that.)
For the rom-hacking community (to which the game reverse-engineering community is closely associated), I'd say it's a combination of two factors:
1. SM64 has received very little love from Nintendo since its release—many people were anticipating that Nintendo's (temporary) Switch port of the game would at least be modified to be playable in widescreen, but it wasn't. So the community has taken it upon itself to implement the QoL fixes that Nintendo doesn't seem willing to give them.
2. SM64 has many underutilized engine elements, similar to SMB3 or SMW; like those games, it's ripe for modding and further exploration. (It might be said that Nintendo "leaves a lot of level design opportunities on the table" with each of their games.) Games like SMB3 and SMW, which are easy enough to mod, have had heavily-active modding scenes for decades, with many level editors written, new engine plugins developed, etc. But SM64, and N64 games in general, are harder to mod as compiled objects; you really do have to decompile them to have any hope of doing something new or different with them.
> 1. SM64 has received very little love from Nintendo since its release
Let’s not forget SM64DS which was a really interesting remake. A lot of welcomed additions to the original game while still respecting the original game. I’m sad because I believe this version will never have a remake and since it’s a Nintendo DS game, it started and will continue to age terribly badly.
Let’s not forget SM64DS which was a really interesting remake. A lot of welcomed additions to the original game while still respecting the original game. I’m sad because I believe this version will never have a remake and since it’s a Nintendo DS game, it started and will continue to age terribly badly.
FYI it didn’t come with n64. I had a n64 as a kid and rented Mario 64.
Nostalgia and a game that did a lot right when 3D was becoming mainstream. Few if any of its features were firsts but they were polished and combined to make a package that played better than most other 3D platforms of the day.
I believe it was "the" game that the platform was marketed with, just like the Switch got Zelda BOTW.
Stores with a video games section often had a console available for kids to play in the store for marketing. I assume Nintendo was providing those, and as far as I remember, the N64 ones were always playing Mario 64.
Stores with a video games section often had a console available for kids to play in the store for marketing. I assume Nintendo was providing those, and as far as I remember, the N64 ones were always playing Mario 64.
It was never my thing, but it is a masterpiece like Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 or Hitchcock films.
It was the first real 3d world game and went to innovate in so many things that we take for granted today.
In an open world the number of possibilities and combinations grow enormously. They had to solve so many problems for the first time.
Games like Crash Bandicoot are much more constrained and simple.
Other companies(SEGA) tried to create their own and failed.
Today it is trivial to make such a world with the great tools that we have, but Mario 64 was the first to prove what was possible, it was inspiration for younger developers.
The Naughty Dog guys actually believed that such a game was impossible to make until they saw it.
It was the first real 3d world game and went to innovate in so many things that we take for granted today.
In an open world the number of possibilities and combinations grow enormously. They had to solve so many problems for the first time.
Games like Crash Bandicoot are much more constrained and simple.
Other companies(SEGA) tried to create their own and failed.
Today it is trivial to make such a world with the great tools that we have, but Mario 64 was the first to prove what was possible, it was inspiration for younger developers.
The Naughty Dog guys actually believed that such a game was impossible to make until they saw it.
It’s the first real 3D platformer. It aged absolutely wonderfully. The controls, although less good than more recent 3D mario are better and more precise than most nowadays games.
This game is an absolute masterpiece crafted with a lot of love more than two decades ago and this love can still be felt today.
It’s really difficult to explain but, Mario 64 was the first but was also « perfect » as an artwork. There have since been a lot of better games in almost all criteria but never as a whole.
I’m glad it’s now « open source » because I feel like it’s a really nice way to preserve it from the passing time.
If you haven’t played it recently, just try it if you don’t believe me. It’ll feel like an old game for maybe 5 minutes. Then, chances are that you’ll be hooked until the final credits. But play a « modern » version of it, so either the upscale Switch version or the PC port.
This game is an absolute masterpiece crafted with a lot of love more than two decades ago and this love can still be felt today.
It’s really difficult to explain but, Mario 64 was the first but was also « perfect » as an artwork. There have since been a lot of better games in almost all criteria but never as a whole.
I’m glad it’s now « open source » because I feel like it’s a really nice way to preserve it from the passing time.
If you haven’t played it recently, just try it if you don’t believe me. It’ll feel like an old game for maybe 5 minutes. Then, chances are that you’ll be hooked until the final credits. But play a « modern » version of it, so either the upscale Switch version or the PC port.
It's one of the great masterpieces of Shigeru Miyamoto.
Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games.
It was the flagship title of the N64, whose 3D graphics processor was designed by SGI.
Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full) [@2:56]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI&t=2m56s
>In 1996, Nintendo shook the video game world with the breakthrough N64. Miyamoto's creativity now had free reign, and an exhilarating new era in interactive entertainment was born. N64's flagship game has been called his masterpiece.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27918255
>I posted these earlier about Shigeru Miyamoto, and just transcribed a highlight from one of the videos of his two GDC keynotes (but watch both keynotes in full -- every word is profound, and they bracket an amazing time in game development history: 1999-2007!):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656
>I've seen some great talks by the amazing game designer, Shigeru Miyamoto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto
>In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do.
>In a later talk, about the Wii, he explained that now he designs his games starting with the facial expressions of the people playing them, then to the physical experience that could evoke such an expression, then on into the computer that could conduct such an experience.
>As an example, he showed a picture of a grandfather with his granddaughter sitting in his lap, playing a game, looking totally entranced and delighted at the game, and her grandfather looking at her, with just as entranced and delighted an expression as on his granddaughter's face, even if he didn't necessarily understand what the game itself was about. He got so much enjoyment out of just watching his granddaughter enjoying the game, that it was fun for him, too.
>The Wii was so successful as a social party game, because the players themselves were more fun to watch than the game on the screen, because they make spectacles of themselves, which is much more entertaining to watch than the computer graphics. And you don't get bored waiting for your turn to play, because it's fun watching other people play.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280
I wrote this earlier on another forum but I'll repost it here:
I've seen Shigeru Miyamoto speak at several game developer conferences over the years. He's absolutely brilliant, a really nice guy, and there's so much to learn by studying his work and listening to him talk. Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games.
At one of his earlier talks, he explained that he starts designing games by thinking about how you touch, manipulate and interact with the input device in the real world, instead of thinking about the software and models inside the virtual world of the computer first. The instantaneous response of Mario 64 and how you can run and jump around is a great example of that.
Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI
At a later talk about how he designed the Wii, he said that he now starts designing games by thinking about what kind of expression he wants it to evoke on the player's faces, and how to make the players themselves entertain the other people in the room who aren't even playing the game themselves. That's why the Wii has so many great party games, like Wii Sports. Then he showed a video of a little girl sitting in her grandfather's lap playing a game -- http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s , with a delighted expression on her face. The grandfather was delighted and entertained by watching his granddaughter enjoy the game.
This photo -- https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg -- perfectly illustrates exactly what he means!
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs
>So let me move from the vision of Nintendo to the vision that I have always employed personally in my career as a game developer.
>In interviews, I'm often asked about specific elements of my games. Where did you get the idea for that character or that hardware? Why did you design that level in that way?
>And sometimes I can tell that the people who are asking these questions have spend a lot of time analyzing my games in very detailed fashion to search for the answers.
>But the riddle here is the harder they look at the individual parts of the game itself, the further away they get from determining that answer.
>The reason for this is that my initial focus and my primary focus throughout development is not these individual elements of the game.
>When I'm creating a game, what I always try to envision, it's what I always think about, is the core element of fun within the game.
>And to do that, I imagine one thing, and that's the face of the player, while he or she is experiencing the game.
>Not any individual part of the game itself.
>And what the players feel will be reflected on their faces. And as an entertainer, I want them to be entertained.
>I was remind of this recently, when we launched Nintendo DS in Japan, and first put the system out in public, for people to start playing.
>We asked some of those people if we could video tape them, and you can see some of these videos, the first time they're playing the DS, at a web site called MyFirstTouch.ds.
>So let's take a look at two cuts that impressed me most. Let's take a look.
>(Girl singing in joy.) So cute. That guy there is happy because his girlfriends are so excited.
>And of course this grandfather's happy that his granddaughter's having so much fun as well.
>And since this is a stylus, a touch pen, he's able to play the game too.
>So as you can see, not only is the person who's playing the game being entertained, but the people standing around watching are getting caught up in the excitement, and they're being entertained as well.
>And that made me very happy. That's the reaction that I always want.
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw
Shigeru Miyamoto Keynote GDC 07 - Wife-o-meter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU
Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games.
It was the flagship title of the N64, whose 3D graphics processor was designed by SGI.
Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full) [@2:56]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI&t=2m56s
>In 1996, Nintendo shook the video game world with the breakthrough N64. Miyamoto's creativity now had free reign, and an exhilarating new era in interactive entertainment was born. N64's flagship game has been called his masterpiece.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27918255
>I posted these earlier about Shigeru Miyamoto, and just transcribed a highlight from one of the videos of his two GDC keynotes (but watch both keynotes in full -- every word is profound, and they bracket an amazing time in game development history: 1999-2007!):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7626656
>I've seen some great talks by the amazing game designer, Shigeru Miyamoto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto
>In an earlier talk, he explained that he designed his games starting with how you physically interact with the controls you're holding in your hand, and then inwards into the computer, instead of the other way around like so many other people tend to do.
>In a later talk, about the Wii, he explained that now he designs his games starting with the facial expressions of the people playing them, then to the physical experience that could evoke such an expression, then on into the computer that could conduct such an experience.
>As an example, he showed a picture of a grandfather with his granddaughter sitting in his lap, playing a game, looking totally entranced and delighted at the game, and her grandfather looking at her, with just as entranced and delighted an expression as on his granddaughter's face, even if he didn't necessarily understand what the game itself was about. He got so much enjoyment out of just watching his granddaughter enjoying the game, that it was fun for him, too.
>The Wii was so successful as a social party game, because the players themselves were more fun to watch than the game on the screen, because they make spectacles of themselves, which is much more entertaining to watch than the computer graphics. And you don't get bored waiting for your turn to play, because it's fun watching other people play.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486280
I wrote this earlier on another forum but I'll repost it here:
I've seen Shigeru Miyamoto speak at several game developer conferences over the years. He's absolutely brilliant, a really nice guy, and there's so much to learn by studying his work and listening to him talk. Will Wright calls him the Stephen Spielberg of games.
At one of his earlier talks, he explained that he starts designing games by thinking about how you touch, manipulate and interact with the input device in the real world, instead of thinking about the software and models inside the virtual world of the computer first. The instantaneous response of Mario 64 and how you can run and jump around is a great example of that.
Shigeru Miyamoto GDC 1999 Keynote (Full): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2Pf5F2acI
At a later talk about how he designed the Wii, he said that he now starts designing games by thinking about what kind of expression he wants it to evoke on the player's faces, and how to make the players themselves entertain the other people in the room who aren't even playing the game themselves. That's why the Wii has so many great party games, like Wii Sports. Then he showed a video of a little girl sitting in her grandfather's lap playing a game -- http://youtu.be/SY3a4dCBQYs?t=12m29s , with a delighted expression on her face. The grandfather was delighted and entertained by watching his granddaughter enjoy the game.
This photo -- https://i.imgur.com/zSbOYbk.jpg -- perfectly illustrates exactly what he means!
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En9OXg7lZoE
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jer1KCPTcdE
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3a4dCBQYs
>So let me move from the vision of Nintendo to the vision that I have always employed personally in my career as a game developer.
>In interviews, I'm often asked about specific elements of my games. Where did you get the idea for that character or that hardware? Why did you design that level in that way?
>And sometimes I can tell that the people who are asking these questions have spend a lot of time analyzing my games in very detailed fashion to search for the answers.
>But the riddle here is the harder they look at the individual parts of the game itself, the further away they get from determining that answer.
>The reason for this is that my initial focus and my primary focus throughout development is not these individual elements of the game.
>When I'm creating a game, what I always try to envision, it's what I always think about, is the core element of fun within the game.
>And to do that, I imagine one thing, and that's the face of the player, while he or she is experiencing the game.
>Not any individual part of the game itself.
>And what the players feel will be reflected on their faces. And as an entertainer, I want them to be entertained.
>I was remind of this recently, when we launched Nintendo DS in Japan, and first put the system out in public, for people to start playing.
>We asked some of those people if we could video tape them, and you can see some of these videos, the first time they're playing the DS, at a web site called MyFirstTouch.ds.
>So let's take a look at two cuts that impressed me most. Let's take a look.
>(Girl singing in joy.) So cute. That guy there is happy because his girlfriends are so excited.
>And of course this grandfather's happy that his granddaughter's having so much fun as well.
>And since this is a stylus, a touch pen, he's able to play the game too.
>So as you can see, not only is the person who's playing the game being entertained, but the people standing around watching are getting caught up in the excitement, and they're being entertained as well.
>And that made me very happy. That's the reaction that I always want.
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBee2YlDPg
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI3DB3tYiOw
Shigeru Miyamoto 2007 GDC Keynote - Part 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwYBSkzevw
Shigeru Miyamoto Keynote GDC 07 - Wife-o-meter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMybmWHzfU
[deleted]
It was back then a memorable landmark game which set off the 3D Evolution in Nintendo Games
It has also been ported to WASM, Nvidia Jetson dev kits (including Switch hardware), Linux, Windows and ostensibly everything else under the sun. Frankly I'm surprised (not really) that iOS took so long.
The xbone probably runs it as well since it’s open to homebrew. They stopped people from wanting to hack it that way too.
I wonder if anyone ported it to a TI calculator yet.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPH-NH3B6k
Pretty good video on optimizations to Mario 64 now that it has been decompiled.
I don’t like that video, guy is very arrogant for calling the guys at Nintendo stupid for some of their mistakes. The Super Mario 64 development team was under immense pressure at the time to build and ship this game no doubt. And they did so while pioneering a lot of new areas and techniques in the world of console games.
The kind of comments that dude makes say much more about him as a person than anything else – it shows that he is not able to put himself in other peoples shoes.
His video does not deserve any views when he acts that way. And I feel sorry for anyone that would work on a team with someone that has the kind of mentality that the creator of that video is showing.
The kind of comments that dude makes say much more about him as a person than anything else – it shows that he is not able to put himself in other peoples shoes.
His video does not deserve any views when he acts that way. And I feel sorry for anyone that would work on a team with someone that has the kind of mentality that the creator of that video is showing.
How legal is decompilation? Have we stablished legally accepted ways like in reverse engineering?
It’s legal under the DMCA for the purpose of interoperability… but IANAL:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
The parts that refer to interoperability all use phrasing like "interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs". That "independently created" probably doesn't apply here.
I would consider this project to be aiming for interoperability with the target OS (Linux, macOS, Windows), an independently developed program.
By that interpretation, you would be free to use information gleaned from reverse engineering Super Mario 64 to modify your OS of choice to be capable of running Super Mario 64 as-is. But the law doesn't authorize you to distribute a modified version of Super Mario 64, because the reverse engineering is only permitted "to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section."
I would assume it falls under the same rules regarding the ROM itself: legal to do yourself from a purchased copy but not legal to send to others.
I am unsure about the exact legal details about decompilation, but in regards to the SM64 decompile the fact it produces a rom that is byte for byte exact I doubt it to be legal
From the SM64 decompilation (https://github.com/n64decomp/sm64) 's README:
> This repo does not include all assets necessary for compiling the ROMs. A prior copy of the game is required to extract the assets.
In other words, the repo only contains the reverse-engineered source code, not any reproductions of Nintendo's copyrighted or trademarked materials. You have to produce those infringing assets yourself—using tools they supply, yes; but also, crucially, by feeding in a copy of the game you already—presumably—have a private-use license for.
> This repo does not include all assets necessary for compiling the ROMs. A prior copy of the game is required to extract the assets.
In other words, the repo only contains the reverse-engineered source code, not any reproductions of Nintendo's copyrighted or trademarked materials. You have to produce those infringing assets yourself—using tools they supply, yes; but also, crucially, by feeding in a copy of the game you already—presumably—have a private-use license for.
Thanks, yeah, I was thinking along those lines: of course Mario 3D models, textures, audio, etc, are Nintendo’s copyright, but what about the decompiled code itself?
That seems a much harder line to draw
That seems a much harder line to draw
IIRC there have been court rulings that using someone else's data but in your own structure (e.g. someone else's geo-referenced place named but structured into your own map; or someone else's database of phone numbers but structured into your own phonebook) is perfectly legal, and not a copyright violation.
The decompilation process didn't result in C source code that exactly matches the C source code that Nintendo wrote. (For one thing, the identifier names are different. Probably they use different-but-equivalent control structures in places. Intermediate variables might be introduced that didn't exist in the original.) And as such, that code isn't something Nintendo owns.
This is why the Oracle vs. Google Java lawsuit had to be about header files that were copied verbatim — because Oracle had no grounds to stand on for suing for infringement for the reverse-engineered-and-rewritten implementation code.
(Note that Nintendo could in theory have patented some of the high-level process stuff going on in their code; but that's rare and unlikely enough in litigious America, let alone in Japan.)
The decompilation process didn't result in C source code that exactly matches the C source code that Nintendo wrote. (For one thing, the identifier names are different. Probably they use different-but-equivalent control structures in places. Intermediate variables might be introduced that didn't exist in the original.) And as such, that code isn't something Nintendo owns.
This is why the Oracle vs. Google Java lawsuit had to be about header files that were copied verbatim — because Oracle had no grounds to stand on for suing for infringement for the reverse-engineered-and-rewritten implementation code.
(Note that Nintendo could in theory have patented some of the high-level process stuff going on in their code; but that's rare and unlikely enough in litigious America, let alone in Japan.)
The decompiled code is a derivative work of the ROM which is a derivative work of the original code.
Meaning, illegal from your point of view?
There are infinite possible compiler inputs that would produce an exact copy of the ROM, or a superset of it. Pi is likely to be one of them. Would all such inputs infringe on Nintendo's copyright?
This is such a nonsequitur.
I can take something copyrighted, and generate an unlimited number of different things that infringe copyright. I could take Harry Potter and change where the line breaks are—countless variations. Or I could add commentary to the margins. I could put different pictures on the cover. I could translate the book into different languages. I could write new chapters and stick them in the middle.
I can take something copyrighted, and generate an unlimited number of different things that infringe copyright. I could take Harry Potter and change where the line breaks are—countless variations. Or I could add commentary to the margins. I could put different pictures on the cover. I could translate the book into different languages. I could write new chapters and stick them in the middle.
The question is if the compiler input was made (in part) by copying something from Nintendo.
How legal are derivative works on GitHub with copilot? They can have rules, enforcement is separate.
They are illegal, but github will leave them up until someone sends a dmca request / enforces their copyright.
Didn't EU just drop a ruling regarding decompilation?
Decompilation to fix a bug or otherwise allow the software to be used as intended. Not just decompilation for the fun of it or running it on completely unsupported hardware or software.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28809559
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28809559
Can you argue that you intended to use the software on your iPad?
On the surface maybe, but
> such an exception to the author’s exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program
could be interpreted to mean that, especially for anything still being sold (like the retro games sold on Switch), interop for the sake of interop would very likely conflict with Nintendo's legitimate [business] interest.
> such an exception to the author’s exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program
could be interpreted to mean that, especially for anything still being sold (like the retro games sold on Switch), interop for the sake of interop would very likely conflict with Nintendo's legitimate [business] interest.
So this should be doable on an Apple TV?
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_bee... for everyone without the Reddit app.
Thank you! I followed the link on my phone and WTF is this bullshit? There's a popover that tells me to either download the app or "Return to /r/popular" ...despite not having come from there in the first place. No way to just close it and, you know, read the content. At least, no obvious way.
It's gotten so bad on iOS I registered an easy-to-type .com TLD and spun up a libreddit instance on it. Now I just have to double-tap "reddit" in the url and bang out 6 random characters and hit "enter". I was so happy when the new iOS came out with extension support, now I just redirect the tld to that instance automatically.
I request desktop version on mobile for reddit. The dark patterns break functionality otherwise. even pinching and zooming on old.reddit.com is better than that.
Also there is the "old Reddit" add-on for various browsers , auto changes the URL to old.Reddit.com
Unfortunately this is currently incompatible with current Firefox on android
Unfortunately this is currently incompatible with current Firefox on android
Like most useful plugins.. :/
I ported my extension for these redirects to the new iOS Safari extension model. You can choose to also use the old i.reddit.com interface as well it that’s your thing.
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
oh thank god. i had ben looking for this extension for ios. just bought it, and it works great — thank you
Can you further explain? I jailbreak and use a redirect to the Apollo app, didn’t know the new iOS could do extensions. Amazing. old.reddit.com is much nicer too.
Yep! If you check out the iOS 15 page and scroll about half way down, it talks about extensions: https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-15/
I'm currently using HyperWeb[0], which does a great deal of automatic redirecting, ad-blocking, etc. (and other automation, if you get the pro option) though there's plenty of other extensions working their way into iOS support now[1].
[0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hyperweb/id1581824571
[1] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/21/here-are-the-best-new-safari-...
I'm currently using HyperWeb[0], which does a great deal of automatic redirecting, ad-blocking, etc. (and other automation, if you get the pro option) though there's plenty of other extensions working their way into iOS support now[1].
[0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hyperweb/id1581824571
[1] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/21/here-are-the-best-new-safari-...
I think this is finally the time to switch to Safari from Chrome for me.
Thank you so much! I still haven't updated and probably won't to get an untethered jailbreak but I know this will get bigger and I will use it in the future. Wonder if webassembly will help too.
I ported my extension for these redirects to the new iOS Safari extension model. You can choose to also use the old i.reddit.com interface as well it that’s your thing.
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
Apollo now has a built in safari extension to do exactly that; redirect Reddit url’s to the Apollo app.
I get all those plus I've noticed a Reddit page crashing and reloading the page on mobile Safari once I've scrolled down a few comments. Every page does this without fail for me. I use those and the "Return to /r/popular" messages to remind myself that it's almost never worth my time and to go read something else.
The Reddit page loads without issues on Android with the Chromium-based Brave browser.
It sounds like Reddit and iOS is a really bad combination.
It sounds like Reddit and iOS is a really bad combination.
That the new reddit. They really want people using their app, despite the website work ok.
... for some value of "ok", after the horrible redesign some years ago
It's part of the Web 0.0 movement.
Also, here's the GitHub repo: https://github.com/sm64pc/sm64ex
Where things stand regarding copyright law, I'm not certain.
Where things stand regarding copyright law, I'm not certain.
reddit (a YC company btw) trying very hard to male the web version unusable for mobile devices.
100% agree and anyone who says otherwise has either never browsed Reddit on Safari on an iPhone or is being disingenuous.
The website is the epitome of scum and pulls every single annoying trick in the book to try and get you to download the damn app.
The website is the epitome of scum and pulls every single annoying trick in the book to try and get you to download the damn app.
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While blaming Reddit is fair, it is made a lot worse by the closed nature of iOS and Safari.
It seems counter-intuitive that both Reddit and Apple are highly successful companies.
It seems counter-intuitive that both Reddit and Apple are highly successful companies.
How is it apples fault that reddit made these terrible decisions to their own mobile website? The iPhone has been around for over a decade and the mobile reddit website becoming useless and terrible is only a recent phenomenon.
I checked again on the Brave browser i use on Android and if you are logged in then Reddit is ok.
If you don't login, then it doesn't let you view the post.
As much as I hate it, I disagree. There are more users than ever. old.reddit.com and i.reddit.com are fine. I have a problem with my older device on it, newer one is fine, it’s worst yes but it’s not unusable, we’re used to older technology (like too small fonts and zooming in) the new interface is more attractive to other people, we are the ones who will remember what a headphone jack was.
No it’s a grotesque technique which goes against the open web and should be condemned for the garbage that it is.
If your website is resorting to do this then your website has failed.
If your website is resorting to do this then your website has failed.
How is requiring an app to view submissions not making the web version unusable?
You don't need to, I didn't for a long time with an JS extension (iOS JB). I don't like the layout myself.
If requiring a JavaScript extension to make it worthwhile isn't a sign of it being unusable, I don't know what is!
The website is literally unusable - they prevent you from viewing more than a few posts without installing the app.
The website is literally unusable - they prevent you from viewing more than a few posts without installing the app.
They literally pulled a yelp with their mobile website and made it useless other than a redirect to the app store.
What Yelp and Reddit do to mobile clients should get them de-ranked by search engines. It's terrible.
Maybe something’s up with my phone (iPhone 12 Pro, iOS 15.0.1, Safari), but this is the second old.reddit.com link that I’ve clicked due to the main link being “broken” without the app, only for the old.reddit.com link to play a black video with sound.
I don’t see other reports, which is why I’m assuming it’s just me. But maybe somebody knows what’s going on.
I don’t see other reports, which is why I’m assuming it’s just me. But maybe somebody knows what’s going on.
Both old and new Reddit play the video in Safari on iOS for me. iPhone X with iOS 14.7.1
I use Firefox Mobile and have to turn on "Desktop site" to browse Reddit. Is there a way to view the mobile Reddit site?
Interesting. I get the "fuck you, download our app" pop-up on Firefox Mobile but not Chrome mobile.
Does it help if you add /.compact to the end of the URL? The reddit website constantly kicks you back into the desktop version these days but it mostly works
i.reddit.com? Is that what you mean/are looking for?
rif is fun is the best reddit client
Not on topic but can I just say fuck Reddit for the way they purposely hobble the mobile experience on web? No I won’t install your shitty app Reddit. Ever. I might have considered it before but it’s personal now.
While the "download our app goddamnit" popups are clearly user-hostile, I do wonder how much of the rest of the UI is poor due to incompetence. Or to put it more nicely, due to structural and organizational issues.
Most of the new(er) UI seems to be a poorly performing, slow, and inefficient experience on desktop as well. There's a few improved features here or there, but most of the site is just genuinely awful to use - beyond things that are 100% subjective. Buttons and interactions are laggy and way more resources are used than you'd think were necessary. It certainly seems worse for getting ad impressions, ignoring the additional dark patterns it has over the old UI.
Across all of the new UI, the mobile version of it, and the official reddit apps, the experience is quite terrible, in many of the same ways. It seems odd to me that the same mistakes would be made in all of the products, and not solved after so much time and talent were available.
Maybe there's just some product person who likes a lot of bad ideas and has too much power. I dunno. It's weird.
Most of the new(er) UI seems to be a poorly performing, slow, and inefficient experience on desktop as well. There's a few improved features here or there, but most of the site is just genuinely awful to use - beyond things that are 100% subjective. Buttons and interactions are laggy and way more resources are used than you'd think were necessary. It certainly seems worse for getting ad impressions, ignoring the additional dark patterns it has over the old UI.
Across all of the new UI, the mobile version of it, and the official reddit apps, the experience is quite terrible, in many of the same ways. It seems odd to me that the same mistakes would be made in all of the products, and not solved after so much time and talent were available.
Maybe there's just some product person who likes a lot of bad ideas and has too much power. I dunno. It's weird.
Here's a mobile link for you:
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_bee...
The day they kill `/.compact` is the day I leave reddit.
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_bee...
The day they kill `/.compact` is the day I leave reddit.
For this reason I like to use Teddit.net when browsing on mobile
Though Teddit's intentions are great, I feel like using teddit, reddit, baconreader, etc is still giving Reddit my time, focus, and fellowship. As a site, I've noticed I don't feel good after browsing it the last few years, so aside from articles or something that a friend passes along, I don't find myself there as often.
Then… good? Isn’t that a healthy social network?
I'm not sure what criteria I'd use to describe a 'healthy social network' but I would not put "user feels bad after visiting" anywhere on there.
"I don't feel good" != "I feel bad"
Addictive social networks are awful specifically because they're engineered to give you dopamine. If a website lets you check in and out without becoming addictive then… good!
Addictive social networks are awful specifically because they're engineered to give you dopamine. If a website lets you check in and out without becoming addictive then… good!
I love feeling bad after using the internet, it's the surest sign I have that freedom is alive and well online.
While I agree with you wholeheartedly, these sorts of comments are discouraged by HN guidelines.
I dont see on what else to comment, as I, as well as many other commenters, are unable to read the content of the link.
I feel the exact same way. Perfectly articulated. It's personal now for me as well.
Most people suggest trying old.reddit, but i.reddit is what you want on mobile.
[deleted]
Petition to automatically change “www” to “old” in all Reddit links submitted to HN?
Granted.
You can get this everywhere. Just track down the "Redirector" extension and put a rule in to redirect ^(https?://)?www.reddit.com(/.*)?$ to $1old.reddit.com$2
You can also use it to automatically redirect all mobile Wikipedia links to the non-mobile site.
You can also use it to automatically redirect all mobile Wikipedia links to the non-mobile site.
Can't do that on iOS at least. With the amount of reddit posts submitted here, we need a hard rule.
By the way, you can declare your preference for "old" in Reddit's settings. It has worked pretty well for me on desktop (not sure if old even exists on mobile).
Personally, I can't stand that interface, but I also use a userscript to change "old" to "www" automatically, so I guess this wouldn't really bother me. I definitely recommend using the reverse userscript if you have the reverse opinion though.
Use a browser extension.
On iOS?
Yep ios 15 has them now. Or you can use apollo and make it open there.
Oh I thought you meant you could install an old reddit redirecting extension into safari.
I ported my extension for these redirects to the new iOS Safari extension model. You can choose to also use the old i.reddit.com interface as well it that’s your thing.
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
https://secretkeys.io/oldr/
javascript:(function() { window.location.href = window.location.href.replace("www.reddit", "old.reddit"); })()
[deleted]
Are you asking a question, or is this the petition? (the question mark threw me off)
I wouldn't mind it, but I'd be curious what happens when reddit follows the inevitable course and obsoletes that interface along with i.reddit.com
I wouldn't mind it, but I'd be curious what happens when reddit follows the inevitable course and obsoletes that interface along with i.reddit.com
Just starting a discussion. Interestingly there’s another Reddit link on HN that doesn’t exhibit this behavior: https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/comments/q4nltn/ads_are_...
Reddit has really degraded their mobile web experience over the past year or so. I can’t view this link at all on mobile, it just has a dialog with options to open the app or return to the Reddit homepage.
For anyone on iOS, Apollo is really essential if you want to use Reddit. Especially now with safari extensions, you can just set Reddit links to automatically open in Apollo.
Agreed! Apollo is great (but I’m biased, see below.)
I lived with Apollo’s dev for 3 months ~a decade ago and can say he was a super friendly, genuine guy and a was great roommate. Best of the ~500 people that came through our hacker house. Seems to really care about his users, too.
So for all of Reddit’s dark patterns and anti user behavior it seems that he’ll do right by users.
Really happy to see HN sending support for his product.
I lived with Apollo’s dev for 3 months ~a decade ago and can say he was a super friendly, genuine guy and a was great roommate. Best of the ~500 people that came through our hacker house. Seems to really care about his users, too.
So for all of Reddit’s dark patterns and anti user behavior it seems that he’ll do right by users.
Really happy to see HN sending support for his product.
Thanks, but no thanks. I am not installing an app just to view a website. I have a browser.
I'm the same way, but I finally gave in and tried Apollo. It's really well made and unrestricting. Would highly recommend it, even though I no longer need it, as I've switched to a freedom respecting distribution of Android.
I am there for 9/10 cases, but needing to have a browser session logged in to Reddit at all times so that it defaults to old.reddit.com is pretty obnoxious on mobile. Apollo also surfaces far more functionality with far more immediacy than I can normally be bothered to interact with in a (mobile especially) browser session. I’m actually using the Hack app by Pranoy Chowdhury for Hacker News for many of the same reasons.
lol so true. Apps are actually inferior for the user these days. Example: I can easily skip YouTube ads on the mobile YouTube website, so I use that. Can’t skip ads on the YouTube iOS app.
Happy Apollo user here.
Do you know of a way that this can be done with Firefox on iOS?
The web experience has been reduced to an indexer. Following the HN link, there's an option to open the app store, or navigate to the subreddit's index. Even choosing to navigate to the index and open a post directly displays the same prompt.
The only way I have found to prevent the behavior is to log in and set a preference not to be prompted
Same. Couldn’t view the link and won’t be installing an app I have no intention of using.
Try prefixing "old":
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_bee...
https://old.reddit.com/r/SM64PC/comments/q3nm9f/sm64_has_bee...
there is also the i.reddit.com prefix. Sometimes the old.reddit.com interface can make titles very large, and body text (and links) very tiny, on mobile. I can only assume this was intentional, as it happened when the new UI was introduced.
This started happening in the past month for me with Firefox on Android. It turned out that it was due to some sort of Accessibility / font resizing setting - disabling that setting caused it to use the correct font sizes again (and apparently, has a large performance and battery life benefit as well).
While this is quite interesting, I've moved on these days. It's clear that my manner of use is not desired, so I'd rather not set myself up for disappointment when I arrive at the inevitable outcome.
I do appreciate you commenting though, because I sure wondered what was going on!
I do appreciate you commenting though, because I sure wondered what was going on!
[deleted]
Wow the website is absolute garbage. No way to view the link on mobile. Do people on HackerNews actually work for this company? Any comments?
I am more shocked by the fact that i can't read the article linked anymore without installing an app. This is pretty shady product development.
[deleted]
Uhm, so? Please come back when you have successfully ported it to the original Sony PlayStation or the Sega Saturn.
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We're trying for a different type of discussion here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The game has been ported it to the original PlayStation: https://reddit.com/r/PlaystationClassic/comments/pesjua/i_po...
Huh? What is the point of porting it to those consoles? Or was this just a troll?
A side project I'd like to do one day is to compile this on a raspberry Pi zero and lower the clock rate as much as I can get away with so I could try to achieve the lowest possible power consumption to run this software. Just a silly idea since I love thinking about running things in a hyper efficient manner. Does anyone think this could run on some ARM dev board? I imagine something like the ESP32 is still not powerful enough. Anything in TI's inventory that can run this?