EBCDIC is incompatible with GDPR(shkspr.mobi)
shkspr.mobi
EBCDIC is incompatible with GDPR
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2021/10/ebcdic-is-incompatible-with-gdpr/
275 comments
The absurdity of not being able to support a name as common as Christopher or anything as long or longer just screams "government work". What the hell went through everyone's head when they built this system? Absolutely no testing or real data was used either, but that shouldn't matter, because having a max limit on someone's (very common) name is honestly impressive. The fact they developed this system without addressing this issue is a testament to the quality of government software development.
I'm sure there is good government software out there, but there are plenty of showcases of the opposite (especially since these are systems that NEED to work).
I'm sure there is good government software out there, but there are plenty of showcases of the opposite (especially since these are systems that NEED to work).
So Christopher is an interesting case because it's the longest common English first name at 11 characters. There are names that seem longer but aren't, like Maximilian.
My first son is named Christopher, and we realized right away that there is a 10 character first name limit in a ton of systems almost from day 1 - calling my insurance company, the automated system asked "Are you calling about... Christophe?"... in a French accent, which was hilarious.
My first son is named Christopher, and we realized right away that there is a 10 character first name limit in a ton of systems almost from day 1 - calling my insurance company, the automated system asked "Are you calling about... Christophe?"... in a French accent, which was hilarious.
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It was common in the 1980s for compilers to have arbitrary implementation limits. The C Standard even lists minimums, like 127 nesting levels of blocks, 12 pointer declarators, 4095 characters in a string literal, etc.
My compiler started out with those, but I quickly realized that there were only two actual limits:
1. allocated memory
2. stack size
It turned out to be much less code and many fewer error messages to just detect out of memory and blowing up the stack.
My compiler started out with those, but I quickly realized that there were only two actual limits:
1. allocated memory
2. stack size
It turned out to be much less code and many fewer error messages to just detect out of memory and blowing up the stack.
The C standard has those limits mostly because you cannot meaningfully define conformance without them.
Limits will be there whether you standardize minima for them or not.
For instance, no C compiler will handle a function with any number of parameters; as you try test cases with more and more parameters, eventually they will all crap out, right? If for no other reason, than memory.
So then if you don't have anything in the standard about this (like the ECMAScript standard doesn't, for instance) you have to conclude that all those compilers are nonconforming.
But if you have it in the standard that a conforming implementation must handle functions with 128 parameters, then those implementations which crap out at over 128 are spared from being declared nonconforming. Only those which crap out at 128 parameters or fewer have a conformance issue.
Limits settle questions. The user reads the spec and then has confidence they can have 4095 characters in a literal which will be portable to anything calling itself conforming. The implementor reads the spec and then has confidence that their implementation doesn't have to handle more than 4095 characters in a literal in order to handle maximally portable programs. There are goalposts firmly in the ground.
It can be useful for an implementation to optionally diagnose when a minimum limit is exceeded, even if it allows for much more. For instance, to tell the user they are using a larger character literal than 4095. This helps the user prepare a portable program that will work in other implementations.
Limits will be there whether you standardize minima for them or not.
For instance, no C compiler will handle a function with any number of parameters; as you try test cases with more and more parameters, eventually they will all crap out, right? If for no other reason, than memory.
So then if you don't have anything in the standard about this (like the ECMAScript standard doesn't, for instance) you have to conclude that all those compilers are nonconforming.
But if you have it in the standard that a conforming implementation must handle functions with 128 parameters, then those implementations which crap out at over 128 are spared from being declared nonconforming. Only those which crap out at 128 parameters or fewer have a conformance issue.
Limits settle questions. The user reads the spec and then has confidence they can have 4095 characters in a literal which will be portable to anything calling itself conforming. The implementor reads the spec and then has confidence that their implementation doesn't have to handle more than 4095 characters in a literal in order to handle maximally portable programs. There are goalposts firmly in the ground.
It can be useful for an implementation to optionally diagnose when a minimum limit is exceeded, even if it allows for much more. For instance, to tell the user they are using a larger character literal than 4095. This helps the user prepare a portable program that will work in other implementations.
Limits can work, but IIRC the original C would have set the limit on meaningful length of a variable name at 8 (or was it 6?). That... turned out to be a bad place to set that limit. So the limit had to be changed. But the more support the tooling gives for "preserving portability", the more support it gives for making it hard to change the limit when it needs to be changed.
The 6 limit was due to ancient linkers on Unix, which truncated external names to 6 characters. This affected file-scope identifiers with linkage (external or internal).
If a compiler has to work with some object file format which allows only six character symbol names (with case being indistict), there is nothing that can be done; but there is little reason to impose such a stringent limit if the underlying linker technology has a much more lenient one.
I think C90 still made that 6 character the minimum limit; a conforming C implementation of C90 was not required to accept a program which makes two external definitions that do not differ in the first six characters of the name, ignoring case.
In those days, it would have been useful to have a warning if you're using longer identifiers, or if your identifiers are not unique in the first N characters.
C99 raised a bunch of these limits, including that one; it became 31 characters. No mention is made that case is indistinct; it must be distinct.
The limit is still there; use 32 and your program is not strictly conforming to C99.
If a compiler has to work with some object file format which allows only six character symbol names (with case being indistict), there is nothing that can be done; but there is little reason to impose such a stringent limit if the underlying linker technology has a much more lenient one.
I think C90 still made that 6 character the minimum limit; a conforming C implementation of C90 was not required to accept a program which makes two external definitions that do not differ in the first six characters of the name, ignoring case.
In those days, it would have been useful to have a warning if you're using longer identifiers, or if your identifiers are not unique in the first N characters.
C99 raised a bunch of these limits, including that one; it became 31 characters. No mention is made that case is indistinct; it must be distinct.
The limit is still there; use 32 and your program is not strictly conforming to C99.
In some programs (compilers included), removing the limits and relying on detecting OOM is not a bad design decision. In others (most notably network-facing programs, but there are other categories), it can be quite a big problem to not have limits on inputs.
> What the hell went through everyone's head when they built this system?
The way to make a profit on government contracts:
1) Underbid
2) Find every possible use case that’s OBVIOUSLY needed, yet not in the specs
3) Leave them unimplemented
4) Charge through the nose for the extra work.
The system has already been paid for and put to production. It’s too late for the buyers to back out, lest they be out both money and face
The way to make a profit on government contracts:
1) Underbid
2) Find every possible use case that’s OBVIOUSLY needed, yet not in the specs
3) Leave them unimplemented
4) Charge through the nose for the extra work.
The system has already been paid for and put to production. It’s too late for the buyers to back out, lest they be out both money and face
It backfired this time though... the government was like "we can just live with 10 character first names".
>What the hell went through everyone's head when they built this system?
They thought that the next computer system would be better, and when they re-wrote it for the new machine, they'd be able to fix the problems they found, in about 3 years or so. They certainly didn't expect it to still be running in the 1970s or 1980s, let alone in 2021.
IBM broke everything when they introduced backwards compatibility. It saved a ton of time, in the short term, but everything before that point was frozen, and the technical debt it caused has never been paid.
They thought that the next computer system would be better, and when they re-wrote it for the new machine, they'd be able to fix the problems they found, in about 3 years or so. They certainly didn't expect it to still be running in the 1970s or 1980s, let alone in 2021.
IBM broke everything when they introduced backwards compatibility. It saved a ton of time, in the short term, but everything before that point was frozen, and the technical debt it caused has never been paid.
CVS also has trouble with my name (I’m also a Christopher) as do some other private entities like my doctor’s office. So this may not be entirely a government thing.
You can go to a new doctor or pharmacy. The consequences for them not having your full first name recorded are between minimal and nonexistant.
To be a US resident, you must be known to the government. To leave, the government will tax a percentage of your wealth. Try to tell the government to pound sand while remaining, and they can bring the full legal weight of their monopoly on force against you.
The difference in scale of harm between what CVS is capable of versus the government means we should have no issue with holding government to a much higher standard, And be proactive in pointing out when it falls short.
To be a US resident, you must be known to the government. To leave, the government will tax a percentage of your wealth. Try to tell the government to pound sand while remaining, and they can bring the full legal weight of their monopoly on force against you.
The difference in scale of harm between what CVS is capable of versus the government means we should have no issue with holding government to a much higher standard, And be proactive in pointing out when it falls short.
What the hell went through everyone's head when they built this system?
That decision probably dates back decades and was based on the limited amount of space on a 80 column punch card. And as the system evolved past punch cards, no one bothered to update the spec because "it's always been 10 characters, if we change it now, something might break"
That decision probably dates back decades and was based on the limited amount of space on a 80 column punch card. And as the system evolved past punch cards, no one bothered to update the spec because "it's always been 10 characters, if we change it now, something might break"
This likely happened due to budgetary constraints. Storage space was much more expensive then. 10 extra bytes x 10 million records is 100 megabytes of hard drive space. That's a few thousand dollars in 80's money, just for storage. That doesn't include redundant drives, backups, extra RAM, and whatever else is needed.
The limits have probably been in place for 40+ years and nobody wants change it. Or maybe nobody knows how. It's much easier to tell them to abbreviate their name as "Chris" and move on.
The limits have probably been in place for 40+ years and nobody wants change it. Or maybe nobody knows how. It's much easier to tell them to abbreviate their name as "Chris" and move on.
Normally I don't recommend rewriting code, but maintaining such a system is probably more difficult in this case.
> What the hell went through everyone's head when they built this system?
Not sure what did go through, but I'm sure that "Christofer" as a test string didn't.
Not sure what did go through, but I'm sure that "Christofer" as a test string didn't.
> just screams "government work"
Or the government not having enough funds to upgrade its systems since the 80s when storage space came at a significant premium (or not making modernizing IT systems a policy/budgetary priority)
Or the government not having enough funds to upgrade its systems since the 80s when storage space came at a significant premium (or not making modernizing IT systems a policy/budgetary priority)
... because the same people who scream 'government work' also vote to cut taxes.
Yeah, "... but see how incompetent they are?!!1! Why give them more money?!!1!"
Not to say that throwing money at government solves problems either. A competent administration is needed also to instil confidence in voters that they are actually committed to solving problems. Not sure what the situation is like in NJ
Not to say that throwing money at government solves problems either. A competent administration is needed also to instil confidence in voters that they are actually committed to solving problems. Not sure what the situation is like in NJ
The solution is to support and elect good people. If you don't maintain your house, your house will leak and corrode - no matter who else you blame or what excuses you make.
I agree, but I guess it's hard if there's no good options up for election.. or if they promise one thing and do another. Its particularly the case with winner-takes-all democratic systems. I think representational democracies do better at reflecting the desires of voters, otherwise it's just the incumbent pandering to swing voters
To be completely frank, I hear this from many people and I think they are excuses. I see plenty of successes, including where I live. It's not at all perfect, but a lot can get done. The biggest obstacle is the people standing on the side saying nothing can be done - while other people are doing the work.
Ah, I'm not advocating complacency or inaction, but I agree, things can change even in a flawed democracy, just much slower, and also this can disenfranchise voters. In completely dysfunctional and corrupt government, I think the only option would be to hit the streets en masse, but I don't think NJ is at that point
Sounds like the media player I just bought that errors out with "too many songs to shuffle". And you're hosed.
> screams "government work"
The 'government work' was probably done by a private contractor. Note that the OP is about a private bank. If you haven't seen results like that in private business, you've lived a charmed life!
The 'government work' was probably done by a private contractor. Note that the OP is about a private bank. If you haven't seen results like that in private business, you've lived a charmed life!
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I have the exact same problem with my European passport. maximum name length, that is total first+middle+surname must be less than 30 characters.
Officially I am not who I am.
Officially I am not who I am.
That's not a limitation of the European format, which is in fact not agreed on in the original resolution [1]. Your country is doing it wrong. In the UK, where the format has been set in 2014 so still in an EU context, the limit is 60 (30 for surnames, 30 for the rest).
Interestingly, it looks like we're actually going backwards on this: accented characters have actually been dropped from the main passport page in recent years, to be replaced with ICAO transliterations. Which is shameful, to be honest, since it implies passports are now incomplete as a form of ID (unless the real name is recorded somewhere else). Airline lobbying clearly won the day, years ago. This seems to be a UK-only thing at this point.
[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...
Interestingly, it looks like we're actually going backwards on this: accented characters have actually been dropped from the main passport page in recent years, to be replaced with ICAO transliterations. Which is shameful, to be honest, since it implies passports are now incomplete as a form of ID (unless the real name is recorded somewhere else). Airline lobbying clearly won the day, years ago. This seems to be a UK-only thing at this point.
[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...
Wow this PDF is interesting. It explains how to canonically transliterate European ligatures/diacritics, Cyrillic, and even Arabic into Roman. The government clearly wants ASCII to become the one charset to rule them all.
That got me wondering what percentage of the world uses the Roman alphabet, and the answers I found vary from "36% of the world population"[0] to "nearly 70 percent of the world’s population"[1].
In any case, I think it's fair to say that it's a plurality, if not a majority, and that the letters A-Z are the most natural "core" set of glyphs from which the other (upper case) Roman-derived letters are built.
[0] https://www.worldstandards.eu/other/alphabets/
[1] https://www.britannica.com/list/the-worlds-5-most-commonly-u...
In any case, I think it's fair to say that it's a plurality, if not a majority, and that the letters A-Z are the most natural "core" set of glyphs from which the other (upper case) Roman-derived letters are built.
[0] https://www.worldstandards.eu/other/alphabets/
[1] https://www.britannica.com/list/the-worlds-5-most-commonly-u...
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> replaced with ICAO transliterations
Here's the (a?) specification for the machine-readable part of the passport, with transliteration and so on:
https://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/9303_p3_cons_en....
(toyg, did you originally include this link in your comment, then edit it out?)
> passports are now incomplete as a form of ID
Passports are, and always have been, tools for travelling internationally. Depending on a passport for general identity is arguably as much of a mistake as using social security numbers for identification.
Here's the (a?) specification for the machine-readable part of the passport, with transliteration and so on:
https://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/9303_p3_cons_en....
(toyg, did you originally include this link in your comment, then edit it out?)
> passports are now incomplete as a form of ID
Passports are, and always have been, tools for travelling internationally. Depending on a passport for general identity is arguably as much of a mistake as using social security numbers for identification.
> Passports are, and always have been, tools for travelling internationally. Depending on a passport for general identity is arguably as much of a mistake as using social security numbers for identification.
In the U.S., every state-issued ID card or drivers license requires, among other things, a document proving identity; a current, valid U.S. passport is considered to meet that requirement. Here, a passport is a federally-issued identity document.
In the U.S., every state-issued ID card or drivers license requires, among other things, a document proving identity; a current, valid U.S. passport is considered to meet that requirement. Here, a passport is a federally-issued identity document.
And is usually the only acceptable form of ID when traveling internationally (outside of Canada and Mexico), for example when trying to enter a bar.
That is fascinating – thank you. I always wondered why my first names got truncated on the driving license despite there being space – now I know.
That's a very interesting document for future reference.
Decent ground truth on how to transliterate stuff like the EU does.
UK likes to put your full name on bank cards and spend a long time to convince Lloyds to put my initials + last name instead.
Why would I want a random user in a shop to know my full name?!?
Why would I want a random user in a shop to know my full name?!?
> UK likes to put your full name on bank cards
Do they? I had three unexpired bank cards to compare.
My good bank issued me my non-contactless credit card, which is a backup and also the card my Phone "is" when I use that to pay for stuff, which is most of the time. That card (which a little worn) has my first and last name with middle initial.
My good bank also issued me a debit card very recently. This card is entirely black on the front except for the name of the bank and the logo of the card network. However on the back it has my initials and surname.
The other bank I use that does card transactions issued me a more traditional looking card with just my initials and surname on the front.
Do they? I had three unexpired bank cards to compare.
My good bank issued me my non-contactless credit card, which is a backup and also the card my Phone "is" when I use that to pay for stuff, which is most of the time. That card (which a little worn) has my first and last name with middle initial.
My good bank also issued me a debit card very recently. This card is entirely black on the front except for the name of the bank and the logo of the card network. However on the back it has my initials and surname.
The other bank I use that does card transactions issued me a more traditional looking card with just my initials and surname on the front.
That's not my experience, Monzo, Revolut, Lloyds, my private bank, and Halifax (they even misspelled it) all put my full name on the card until I called them and asked for it to be changed.
I think they should ask you how you want your name on the bank cards
I think they should ask you how you want your name on the bank cards
It seems like that's another question most people don't care about, which hurts your acquisition flow if you insist on asking it. Just allowing you to call up and change it seems adequate to resolve strong preference from customers like you.
If you ask people fifty questions they don't care about, and they don't need to complete the process, they just won't do it at all.
"Would you prefer our letters to you addressed you by your first name, your surname and initials or just Dear Sir/Madam?"
"If we have to call you about your account, should we text first or is it OK to just call immediately?"
"Our cards can be doused in artificial lemon scent instead of smelling of plastic when new. Would you prefer the lemon scent?"
"If you had to fight either one angry goose every Tuesday, or an enraged orangutan on a random day once per year, which would you prefer?"
"Would you prefer Contactless cards or should we disable the Contactless feature on your new card?"
"Going back to the goose question, does your answer to the previous question change if the orangutan has a sword?"
If you ask people fifty questions they don't care about, and they don't need to complete the process, they just won't do it at all.
"Would you prefer our letters to you addressed you by your first name, your surname and initials or just Dear Sir/Madam?"
"If we have to call you about your account, should we text first or is it OK to just call immediately?"
"Our cards can be doused in artificial lemon scent instead of smelling of plastic when new. Would you prefer the lemon scent?"
"If you had to fight either one angry goose every Tuesday, or an enraged orangutan on a random day once per year, which would you prefer?"
"Would you prefer Contactless cards or should we disable the Contactless feature on your new card?"
"Going back to the goose question, does your answer to the previous question change if the orangutan has a sword?"
My wife's name was adjusted by the Department of Motor Vehicles in Indiana because the format she wanted "wasn't allowed in the computer". Of course, the name on your driver's license becomes your legal name for many practical purposes.
Seems short sighted, considering it's normal in a lot of European countries to have three given names (and completely legal to have far more).
I call it bullshit because a lot of Basque names+surnames could pass the 30 char limit with ease.
Cue patio11 link:
Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...
Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...
Using a ASCII name in a Chinese speaking country is fun too. The majority of Chinese names are 2 to 4 characters long. So even if you have a short English name, it will either get abbreviated to 5 chars or so or just printed over whatever comes next to the name field.
yep this is fairly common where the original form-factor, a piece of paper/plastic card, was the target. The intent of capturing the name was to put it on the card, and long names can't fit so we have to truncate them or abbreviate etc.
Nevermind that that might not be your name or that in the future having the untruncated name might be useful.
Definitely a big problem for then using that data to form the base of an identity system like trusted ID compliance.
Nevermind that that might not be your name or that in the future having the untruncated name might be useful.
Definitely a big problem for then using that data to form the base of an identity system like trusted ID compliance.
As a fellow Christopher -thank the IT overlords of my state (MO) that my driver's license uses my name in its entirety and not cutting off the 'r'.
Ask them to refund your taxes, since they clearly can't support you
Transitioning off a long established core mainframe/AS400 app is not necessarily so easy as just changing to UTF-8 as the article author implies.
If you have no mainframe or enterprise experience to relate to that observation, consider the effort involved to transition from python 2 to (UTF-8 clean) python 3!
That said, I am not even clear from the article which diacritical markings are missing from EBCDIC and if the lawyers arguments to "not change" were legitimate in the way the article implies... you do realize there are hundreds of EBCDIC code pages covering at least all the European languages ... since these are markets which IBM has sold into for 50+ years now, right?
I only learned about EBCDIC code pages when trying to proactively properly setup character encoding handling for data extraction from one of my employer's long running AS400s... "Which EBCDIC?" is not that different a headache from "which extended ASCII code page?"... EBCDIC is not just like 7-bit (non extended) ASCII as the article implies.
If you have no mainframe or enterprise experience to relate to that observation, consider the effort involved to transition from python 2 to (UTF-8 clean) python 3!
That said, I am not even clear from the article which diacritical markings are missing from EBCDIC and if the lawyers arguments to "not change" were legitimate in the way the article implies... you do realize there are hundreds of EBCDIC code pages covering at least all the European languages ... since these are markets which IBM has sold into for 50+ years now, right?
I only learned about EBCDIC code pages when trying to proactively properly setup character encoding handling for data extraction from one of my employer's long running AS400s... "Which EBCDIC?" is not that different a headache from "which extended ASCII code page?"... EBCDIC is not just like 7-bit (non extended) ASCII as the article implies.
> Transitioning off a long established core mainframe app is not necessarily so easy
I don't think the author implied it was easy, just that it should have been done at some point in the 25 years since the system was first implemented. The last paragraph is just an exortation to use Unicode everywhere all the time, today.
I don't think the author implied it was easy, just that it should have been done at some point in the 25 years since the system was first implemented. The last paragraph is just an exortation to use Unicode everywhere all the time, today.
> "Which EBCDIC?" is not that different a headache from "which extended ASCII code page?"
Sure, but that's still a massive headache. You've probably never had a a headache like needing to switch ASCII or EBCDIC code pages. You generally can't just switch code pages per-record in a file, storing mixed code page data to disk is generally a bad idea, and in some operating systems you can barely switch code pages per application and sometimes need ROM hacks and entire mainframe restarts to switch code pages. (Modern z/OS supports something more like modern Linux locale switching with environment variables before running applications so should at least allow per-application code pages.)
Even if the lowest common denominator code page you choose to run your application in is a full bit or two more than the 7-bit ASCII lowest common denominator a single code page per application is still never going to cover the breadth of UTF-8 without nasty hacks. (That's of course assuming you don't have other problems such as intermediate tools that presume you are only using ASCII compatible EBCDIC subsets of code pages, which may be the case when you've got an eclectic evolution of code accreted around your mainframe apps.)
Sure, but that's still a massive headache. You've probably never had a a headache like needing to switch ASCII or EBCDIC code pages. You generally can't just switch code pages per-record in a file, storing mixed code page data to disk is generally a bad idea, and in some operating systems you can barely switch code pages per application and sometimes need ROM hacks and entire mainframe restarts to switch code pages. (Modern z/OS supports something more like modern Linux locale switching with environment variables before running applications so should at least allow per-application code pages.)
Even if the lowest common denominator code page you choose to run your application in is a full bit or two more than the 7-bit ASCII lowest common denominator a single code page per application is still never going to cover the breadth of UTF-8 without nasty hacks. (That's of course assuming you don't have other problems such as intermediate tools that presume you are only using ASCII compatible EBCDIC subsets of code pages, which may be the case when you've got an eclectic evolution of code accreted around your mainframe apps.)
nemoniac(1)
Time to break out UTF-EBCDIC!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
Thanks, I hate it
Interesting. It makes a bad system worse to try to make it better.
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truly terrifying!
In slightly related news, Ontario just last year finally allowed people to use accented characters in their official legal names, birth certificates, and so on. French has been an official language in Ontario for over half a century. The reason it wasn't possible until recently was entirely technical. The systems were limited by ASCII or, yeah, possibly EBCDIC. (I don't have the details.) Still no guidance on how the average government clerk with the very common US-style layout is supposed to type them in, though.
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/58538/ontario-introduces-...
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/58538/ontario-introduces-...
There /is/ a US-International layout which uses both AltGr style and compose style entry of accented characters, although it's not the best. I actually made my own customized version of US-International for Windows in order to support more options for accented characters and certain extended Latin characters used in old and middle English.
I really wanted to use US-International, but the way it breaks quotes and double-quotes is so bad, I ended up with similar hacks in Windows (via AutoHotKey). It's one of those things where Apple really got it right, and I don't understand why MS cannot adopt similar solutions to what the Macs do.
The "(no dead keys)" variant to US-International solves that problem.
Windows unfortunately doesn't have it out of the box (Ubuntu does). But you can make your own layout with "Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator".
And plenty of people have already made "United States-International (no dead keys)" for Windows, so if you don't want to figure out the MS tool, you can just download+install a layout from GitHub.
And plenty of people have already made "United States-International (no dead keys)" for Windows, so if you don't want to figure out the MS tool, you can just download+install a layout from GitHub.
AHK is really a hack, but Windows has the best software for keyboard adaptation. I used this to create a custom layout that includes Turkish and Greek characters which helps me a lot
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=102...
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=102...
Exactly what I used, too.
You might be interested in my US-International alternative layout. Back when I created it, I also put it up on BitBucket[0] for others, and wrote up some details too[1]. It eschews dead keys for AltGr style composition so there's no need to double-tap any of the keys used for diacritics.
[0]: https://bitbucket.org/coldacid/usintalt/src/master/
[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20160327005949/https://chris.cha...
[0]: https://bitbucket.org/coldacid/usintalt/src/master/
[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20160327005949/https://chris.cha...
Amen. For someone who programs every day but frequently has to type in French, Spanish or German I could not agree more. The Mac is awesome at typing everything.
I use the international US layout. It's ironically much better for writing my native French than the regular AZERTY layout.
Keyboard layout (as an input method) has nothing to do with which characters can be encoded (stored).
What I don't understand when I hear stories like these is why the hell not just use someone else's solution? Surely neighboring Québec had this sorted out ages ago – why not just duplicated whatever they did? Problem solved in no time.
Going further, I wonder why for example the EU doesn't try to get schemes going that facilitate the copying of IT solutions between member states. Why does every country have to reinvent the wheel?
Going further, I wonder why for example the EU doesn't try to get schemes going that facilitate the copying of IT solutions between member states. Why does every country have to reinvent the wheel?
Someone told me they solved it quite simply and elegantly:
There's a law that says: "For a computer system to be purchased by the government it must work in French".
Implementation is then left to potential sellers.
There's a law that says: "For a computer system to be purchased by the government it must work in French".
Implementation is then left to potential sellers.
[deleted]
I think even the Quebecois hate the French-Canadian keyboard layout. Certainly it's incredibly hated here in Ontario.
You mean the Québécois, surely
(sorry, couldn't resist - on topic for the thread...)
(sorry, couldn't resist - on topic for the thread...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSA_keyboard is just awful — it uses ‘right Control’ as a graphic-shift modifier for most characters, instead of AltGraph/Option. (It also uses AltGraph/Option for some common characters like []<> and for French «».) You can't find a better example of government committee work anywhere.
I grew up in France and I hate the PC French keyboard with Alt Grrr with a passion.
Corruption, and putting too big emphasis on having their own system so they are not dependent on someone else.
Hopefully we'll move past these eventually.
Hopefully we'll move past these eventually.
Remember all the ghastliness with code pages that sprang up around Ascii, such that systems configured for different languages didn't agree about what characters most code points were supposed to represent? Well, good news: Ebcdic supports that. For example, here's a code page that can represent all the characters you're likely to need in French:
https://en.everybodywiki.com/EBCDIC_297
So, to be unable to represent á, è, ô, ü, ç, etc, the application would have to be locked into not just Ebcdic but also a particular Ebcdic code page that seems unsuited to the locale where the program was running.
Admittedly, an Ebcdic system will have difficulty representing French, Greek and Russian names at the same time, because there's no code page that encodes all the necessary characters.
An application hard-coded to US-Ascii would also be unable to support accented characters, and an application using any one Ascii code page (as opposed to Unicode) would have the same difficulty representing French, Greek and Russian names at the same time. Which is why, in 2021, we don't do that.
https://en.everybodywiki.com/EBCDIC_297
So, to be unable to represent á, è, ô, ü, ç, etc, the application would have to be locked into not just Ebcdic but also a particular Ebcdic code page that seems unsuited to the locale where the program was running.
Admittedly, an Ebcdic system will have difficulty representing French, Greek and Russian names at the same time, because there's no code page that encodes all the necessary characters.
An application hard-coded to US-Ascii would also be unable to support accented characters, and an application using any one Ascii code page (as opposed to Unicode) would have the same difficulty representing French, Greek and Russian names at the same time. Which is why, in 2021, we don't do that.
This ruling is interesting. As a person with names in Chinese, I could technically force my bank to support UTF-8 simply by saying I do not wish to be known as my English name, which is the phonetic spelling of my Chinese one.
Now since I'm Hongkongese where my English legal name is as legal as the Chinese one the law might be different but for Chinese people though...
Now since I'm Hongkongese where my English legal name is as legal as the Chinese one the law might be different but for Chinese people though...
Even the Dutch have words that cannot be encoded with in Ebcdic[1]. And I suppose many Dutch have names like André.
https://blogs.transparent.com/dutch/tremas-e-i-u-o-a/
https://blogs.transparent.com/dutch/tremas-e-i-u-o-a/
I assume that code page 37 [0] is used in the Netherlands, so it is likely something more other than the common diacritics.
Edit: I just saw it was in Belgium, but the same should apply there. Although they seem to be using a variant of code page 37 called code page 500 (also in [0]).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_37
Edit: I just saw it was in Belgium, but the same should apply there. Although they seem to be using a variant of code page 37 called code page 500 (also in [0]).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_37
And considering the ruling was in Belgium, where half the population is French speaking I'd expect a lot of diacritics to occur.
You might be able to but I wonder if you want to. (Considering this is in Western Europe, Belgium) Most of the people will not be able to convert the characters into something they can process, even if they wanted to. While maybe legal, it would speed your processing up a lot to use the phonetic writing in the extended latin character set.
The diacritical marks however have some familiarity and are in common use.
On a sidenote: lots of airlines also have this issue where an accent or other dimark will remove the character completely making your name different from the one in your passport. Could be quite annoying.
edit: thought it was in the Netherlands but it was in Flanders/Belgium.
The diacritical marks however have some familiarity and are in common use.
On a sidenote: lots of airlines also have this issue where an accent or other dimark will remove the character completely making your name different from the one in your passport. Could be quite annoying.
edit: thought it was in the Netherlands but it was in Flanders/Belgium.
Southwest Airlines doesn't even support having a hyphen in your name, as if that's some exotic character and not something fairly common in English surnames.
In all of EU you can have your name spelled with or without the diacritics are it's equally valid, I have official ID documents with my name with and without the diacritics and it's not a problem in the slightest. In fact when my son was born, we decided to keep the diacritics off his first passport(he has dual nationality) but keep them in his second passport for the country where the diacritics came from originally.
When you write your name in Chinese characters, how do people know whether to pronounce it in Cantonese or Mandarin (or some other Chinese language)? Does that ambiguity ever come up?
I guess it depends on the language they are using at the specific moment. People in Hong Kong are probably going to pronounce it in Cantonese. Border guards in Beijing will probably pronounce it in Mandarin.
There is actually no good way to tell whether a name is Mandarin or Cantonese, except maybe by looking at the place of birth or residence. Ironically, the romanized form might give clues as there are many different romanization systems in use.
There is actually no good way to tell whether a name is Mandarin or Cantonese, except maybe by looking at the place of birth or residence. Ironically, the romanized form might give clues as there are many different romanization systems in use.
There are some limits but other places (especially China) has names that I would find unusual, and I can sort of guess that way. It's definitely not as sure-fire than looking at the romanization for sure.
I'd expect that people who speak Cantonese would use Cantonese, and people who speak Mandarin would use Mandarin pronunciation. When you see a name "Peter", how do you know which pronunciation to use - Dutch, German, Norwegian, English, or other (there's a couple more)? :-)
Same for those with Arabic, Persian, Korean, Thai, Russian ... names
Also Greek, Turkish, German, Romanian... Is there any language other than English that can be written 100% by ASCII characters?
If you have special letters in your name, you'll have a different name in another country without that letter. My surname is supposed to be Özcan, but it's Ozcan or Oezcan in many official documents. Don't even let me start with the "Turkish iİıI problem"...
I mean it's not totally unrecognizable but it's a different name nevertheless.
I was talking to a Romanian colleague recently and she told me that most of the country uses some US keyboard layout instead of Romanian and cannot type Romanian letters, so people have 2 names even in their home country.
If you have special letters in your name, you'll have a different name in another country without that letter. My surname is supposed to be Özcan, but it's Ozcan or Oezcan in many official documents. Don't even let me start with the "Turkish iİıI problem"...
I mean it's not totally unrecognizable but it's a different name nevertheless.
I was talking to a Romanian colleague recently and she told me that most of the country uses some US keyboard layout instead of Romanian and cannot type Romanian letters, so people have 2 names even in their home country.
Not even English can be correctly written in (lower) ASCII, it has far too many borrowed words, like naïve and résumé. Say nothing of archaic spellings or ligatures, like encyclopædia, or ruffle. It's almost surprising ASCII was as successful as it is.
Not that surprising. It was a big improvement over the 6-bit encodings that came before. All caps! And it was broadly assumed from the 70s onward that the 8th bit extended to a regional character set. Even my 1980s Canadian Apple //e supported displaying French characters, in some variant of Latin-1 I think. The easy extensibility of ASCII on 8-bit-byte systems was a big part of its popularity (and eventually its greatest curse when all the divergent extensions started meeting online).
Or just consider how the Japanese put up with computing in pure katakana (their writing system's equivalent of all caps) well into the 1980s.
Or just consider how the Japanese put up with computing in pure katakana (their writing system's equivalent of all caps) well into the 1980s.
"Not good enough, but used everywhere so nothing we can do" is the worst enemy of good, even worse than perfectionism.
Worse is Better: https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html
Most English ligatures (pretty much all other than æ and œ) are simply artifacts of formatting, rather than actual letters. With that in mind, ligature versions of fl and ffl (and the like) are unnecessary.
There's a person who was involved for years in the maintainance of the venerable CSound audio programming language who specifically changed his last name to ffitch (with a ligature, and no leading capital). I don't know for certain, but I think it was intended to provoke/test/trouble weak text representation in software.
> Is there any language other than English that can be written 100% by ASCII characters
Latin. Yes, a lot of textbooks add some diacritics to show pronunciation (as Latin wasn't 100% consistent between spelling and pronunciation), but the Romans themselves didn't use them.
Latin. Yes, a lot of textbooks add some diacritics to show pronunciation (as Latin wasn't 100% consistent between spelling and pronunciation), but the Romans themselves didn't use them.
> the Romans themselves didn't use them
They did sometimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(diacritic)
They did sometimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(diacritic)
So they will never face this problem in Vatican City [0]. Although I guess that Vatican institutions are not required to comply with GDPR.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/5vcd2h/til_t...
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/5vcd2h/til_t...
Dutch, although they insist on treating the ligature IJ as a letter on its own. It's even part of the sort order in dictionaries and telephone books.
Also, probably thanks to Dutch colonialism, the unmodified Latin alphabet is the official writing system in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, and Singapore, and is used to write the Malay and Indonesian languages.
It is also used as the base for romanization systems for languages that don't have a latin-style alphabet already. These are often designed to stick as close to plain lating as possible. Apart from academia and language teaching, a few of them are actually used by governments to render names in latin characters for passports, street signs etc.
Personally, I think that the plain latin alphabet is quite limited and that extensions are necessary. Accents, macrons, circumflexes, etc. are certainly annoying to input, but certainly not worse than inventing completely new letters or using digraphs for everything. I rather think that our educational systems don't teach well how to handle them. We don't have to pronounce them all correctly, and certainly can't be expected to, but typing them is not impossible at all!
Also, probably thanks to Dutch colonialism, the unmodified Latin alphabet is the official writing system in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, and Singapore, and is used to write the Malay and Indonesian languages.
It is also used as the base for romanization systems for languages that don't have a latin-style alphabet already. These are often designed to stick as close to plain lating as possible. Apart from academia and language teaching, a few of them are actually used by governments to render names in latin characters for passports, street signs etc.
Personally, I think that the plain latin alphabet is quite limited and that extensions are necessary. Accents, macrons, circumflexes, etc. are certainly annoying to input, but certainly not worse than inventing completely new letters or using digraphs for everything. I rather think that our educational systems don't teach well how to handle them. We don't have to pronounce them all correctly, and certainly can't be expected to, but typing them is not impossible at all!
Dutch can't be fully written in (non extended) ASCII.
https://www.opentaal.org/het-laatste-nieuws/171-karakterfreq...
https://www.opentaal.org/het-laatste-nieuws/171-karakterfreq...
thinking that ASCII is enough for English is a bit naïve.
Spelling it that way is a fantastic way to look pretentious.
I could have spelled in the naive way, but then the joke wouldn't have worked.
It's at least a little more elementary than that. There are many, many school teachers of young children that will tell you that words like coöperative lost a lot useful disambiguation power when English dropped support for such syllabic markers. I see words written like that and I think of grade school, which seems like the opposite of pretension.
ASCII was designed to handle the common Western European accents ˊˋˆ˜¨ by overstriking. 0x08 0x60 is not inherently a worse encoding than 0xCC 0x80 for a combining grave accent.
> Is there any language other than English that can be written 100% by ASCII characters
Indonesian and Malay languages.
Indonesian and Malay languages.
Basque.
They don't say what the outcome of the case is? I guess it's still in progress(seems to be 2 years old though)? Really interesting use though!
Edit: ah on the linked wiki article it says:
> The Court of Appeal of Brussels held that, in accordance with Article 16 GDPR, the data subject has the right for their name to be correctly spelled when processed by the computer systems of the Bank
So the plaintiff won, but no word on if/how the bank actually fixed it.
Edit: ah on the linked wiki article it says:
> The Court of Appeal of Brussels held that, in accordance with Article 16 GDPR, the data subject has the right for their name to be correctly spelled when processed by the computer systems of the Bank
So the plaintiff won, but no word on if/how the bank actually fixed it.
The lower court ordered the bank to spell the name correctly. The court of appeal upheld this judgement.
Source (Dutch): https://www.gegevensbeschermingsautoriteit.be/publications/a...
This tweet says it was ING Bank: https://twitter.com/simonhania/status/1270812210584043521
Source (Dutch): https://www.gegevensbeschermingsautoriteit.be/publications/a...
This tweet says it was ING Bank: https://twitter.com/simonhania/status/1270812210584043521
> De geschillenkamer van de GBA heeft deze uitleg als niet afdoende aangezien. Dat een bankinstelling
anno 2018 niet bij machte zou zijn om een naam van een klant correct te schrijven onder uitleg dat
zij nog gebruik maakt van een informaticasysteem van 1995, werd niet afdoende beschouwd.
Ouch. Basically "That you're not able to write a customers name correctly in 2018 because you use a system from 1995 is not an excuse".
Ouch. Basically "That you're not able to write a customers name correctly in 2018 because you use a system from 1995 is not an excuse".
The court does have a point in this case. There's a huge number of systems in the world that existed in some form in 1995 and were correctly handling names in 2018. It's not like that's some sort of weird case that nobody else has encountered.
Indeed:
Iso 8859-1: 1985 Unicode: 1991 Utf-8: 1992
There is even IBM277 for an ebcdic version.
Iso 8859-1: 1985 Unicode: 1991 Utf-8: 1992
There is even IBM277 for an ebcdic version.
That's absolutely fair. The law is the law, and GDPR has been adopted for 5 years at this point (enforced for 3), there has been ample time to replace noncompliant systems. If a car manufacturer gave you a new car without seatbelts "because the production chain was built in 1995", you would obviously sue them.
In 1995 EBCDIC, just like mainframes in general, were already quite obsolete.
Depends on what you mean by “obsolete”.
Were they superseded by more modern solutions? Absolutely.
Were they nonfunctional? Hell no.
I worked on several systems in the early 2000s that still had a big old mainframe at the back end.
I’m pretty sure most airlines and banks still run them.
Were they superseded by more modern solutions? Absolutely.
Were they nonfunctional? Hell no.
I worked on several systems in the early 2000s that still had a big old mainframe at the back end.
I’m pretty sure most airlines and banks still run them.
A previous employer had to implement EBCDIC support to interoperate with mainframes just 5 or 6 years ago. Yes, banks are still adding features and new code that runs on their mainframes. IBM still seems to be cranking out new generations of mainframes every few years, so somebody must be paying for this.
> ample time to replace noncompliant systems.
I think the point here is this is completely out of left field as far as what anyone has insisted would be non-compliant with GDPR... If you had done a compliance audit the day GDPR passed, I highly doubt this shortcoming would have even made the footnotes.
"Overly broad and interpretable law with rabid defenders is stretched to painful limits just as critics predicted" is the real story.
I think the point here is this is completely out of left field as far as what anyone has insisted would be non-compliant with GDPR... If you had done a compliance audit the day GDPR passed, I highly doubt this shortcoming would have even made the footnotes.
"Overly broad and interpretable law with rabid defenders is stretched to painful limits just as critics predicted" is the real story.
I have no problem with this. We should not have to rename ourselves, or change our language because of computers or because of lazy companies' refusal to modernize. Both computers and companies serve us, not the other way around.
I'm not saying this is a bad outcome (modernization is overall a Good Thing), I'm saying it's bad that the GDPR is being used to achieve it.
Before today, you cannot seriously tell me that (hypothetical) United Airlines being unable to print æ on your boarding pass would be a GDPR violation. No one would even have considered it. The best "GDPR auditors" that popped up to save the day with expensive consulting would have glossed right over it. And yet the overly broad language of the regulation allowed this contrived gotcha. And now any company that can't support emojis in your surname is now in the Naughty Bucket of GDPR Violators.
I'm just shocked how so many hackers are ok with this law existing in its current form, just because it sometimes achieves things that they like.
If we find ourselves asking "what else can we hit with this hammer," it's a bad law.
Before today, you cannot seriously tell me that (hypothetical) United Airlines being unable to print æ on your boarding pass would be a GDPR violation. No one would even have considered it. The best "GDPR auditors" that popped up to save the day with expensive consulting would have glossed right over it. And yet the overly broad language of the regulation allowed this contrived gotcha. And now any company that can't support emojis in your surname is now in the Naughty Bucket of GDPR Violators.
I'm just shocked how so many hackers are ok with this law existing in its current form, just because it sometimes achieves things that they like.
If we find ourselves asking "what else can we hit with this hammer," it's a bad law.
Companies no longer getting away with misspelling customer names has absolutely been something that has been discussed before this case. (and at the same time, this doesn't mean every contrived example of a name and where a name might appear actually has to support everything)
> Companies no longer getting away with misspelling customer names has absolutely been something that has been discussed before this case.
Correcting incorrect data sure, that's part of what the law grants you. But I believe this case is novel in that the data is as correct as possible (for intents and purpose of banking) yet the courts are requiring a cosmetic adjustment to the data. Cosmetic as in: it does not change the bank's or customer's understanding of the contract and business organization (i.e. I'm not trying to downplay ones attachment to accented letters, I'm talking about correct identification for business purposes).
> and at the same time, this doesn't mean every contrived example of a name and where a name might appear actually has to support everything)
Why not? What language in the GDPR would prevent that? It's the same violation as this case: the name is not displaying how the data subject wants it.
Correcting incorrect data sure, that's part of what the law grants you. But I believe this case is novel in that the data is as correct as possible (for intents and purpose of banking) yet the courts are requiring a cosmetic adjustment to the data. Cosmetic as in: it does not change the bank's or customer's understanding of the contract and business organization (i.e. I'm not trying to downplay ones attachment to accented letters, I'm talking about correct identification for business purposes).
> and at the same time, this doesn't mean every contrived example of a name and where a name might appear actually has to support everything)
Why not? What language in the GDPR would prevent that? It's the same violation as this case: the name is not displaying how the data subject wants it.
> cosmetic adjustment
I also fail to see the great importance of it, but apparently some people see it more than just a cosmetic issue...
I also fail to see the great importance of it, but apparently some people see it more than just a cosmetic issue...
When two courts decide in the same way at the first chance, the interpretation is hardly stretched or painful.
To me the story with GDPR has consistently looked like "IT companies unable and/or unwilling to comply with (or even read) laws when they feel they go against their established practices, no matter how bad such practices might be".
To me the story with GDPR has consistently looked like "IT companies unable and/or unwilling to comply with (or even read) laws when they feel they go against their established practices, no matter how bad such practices might be".
I'm sure the hundreds of millions of euros this will probably cost ING is the most productive possible use of that capital. A real economic growth driver. If this guy cares so much, he can take his business to a competitor that gets it right.
My surname is completely unpronounceable by Americans, and I live in America. I got over it years ago and life continues. Perhaps the plaintiff in this case should learn to stop being offended by the world as it is.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw.
Your name isn't unpronounceable, people are just lazy.
And this isn't someone "being offended", this is a legal requirement of the GDPR to accurately record someone's name.
"Zoë" is not the same as "Zoe" when you go searching for it in a DB.
And this isn't someone "being offended", this is a legal requirement of the GDPR to accurately record someone's name.
"Zoë" is not the same as "Zoe" when you go searching for it in a DB.
> Your name isn't unpronounceable, people are just lazy.
That isn't necessarily true. We all have a certain set of phonemes we can enunciate, and further have limits on how they can be combined together. It is far from inconceivable that the OP could have a name which effectively _is_ unpronounceable to people speaking other languages (and you can't just put in more effort to fix this, so those people aren't "just lazy").
That isn't necessarily true. We all have a certain set of phonemes we can enunciate, and further have limits on how they can be combined together. It is far from inconceivable that the OP could have a name which effectively _is_ unpronounceable to people speaking other languages (and you can't just put in more effort to fix this, so those people aren't "just lazy").
Sure there are sounds that humans cannot make, and combinations that are difficult for non-native speakers. I struggle with long Polynesian names, for example.
But they're not unpronouceable... they just take some effort to learn.
Why do you think you can't fix this? I've never encountered something that is physically unpronounceable (fictional eldritch abominations and extra terrrestials aside)
But they're not unpronouceable... they just take some effort to learn.
Why do you think you can't fix this? I've never encountered something that is physically unpronounceable (fictional eldritch abominations and extra terrrestials aside)
There are sound differences that people who learned a language when young find clear, but which other people who did not learn when young simply do not perceive as being different. Yes, you may be physically able to make the sounds, but if you do not perceive the difference, you can't learn to say it right.
You’re being way too pedantic and missing the point.
I don't think I am. Your original point was that your name was "unpronounceable". I don't believe that to be true.
Your name may be difficult to pronounce for native English speakers, but it's not impossible.
Your name may be difficult to pronounce for native English speakers, but it's not impossible.
You latched onto one word in my statement that's not relevant to the point. Whether it's unpronounceable or difficult to pronounce is not important to the point. But go ahead, don't see the forest for the trees. I suspect this infects other parts of your life, and I wish you success working on that.
Great, stupid lawsuits, exactly what the world needs.
The bank's lawyers took the wrong approach, IMO. The law (as quoted in the article) says:
> The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller without undue delay the rectification of inaccurate personal data concerning him or her.
This doesn't have that much to do with how a certain name is displayed anywhere. Can I get an airline to change their systems if they abbreviated my name on my boarding ticket? Yeah, I don't think so. The airline could say "well we have the proper name in this database over here". And so could the bank.
The bank's lawyers took the wrong approach, IMO. The law (as quoted in the article) says:
> The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller without undue delay the rectification of inaccurate personal data concerning him or her.
This doesn't have that much to do with how a certain name is displayed anywhere. Can I get an airline to change their systems if they abbreviated my name on my boarding ticket? Yeah, I don't think so. The airline could say "well we have the proper name in this database over here". And so could the bank.
> well we have the proper name in this database over here". And so could the bank.
I expect this is how they will eventually solve the issue - the customer-visible parts will be insulated from the old system with stuff that can handle Unicode. Chances are they currently don't have such insulation, producing documents with the wrong names, hence the complaint (bank statements are often used as proof of ID).
Btw this is not a stupid law. Accents are important parts of languages, the tech to handle them has been around for decades now, there is no excuse for willful illiteracy.
I expect this is how they will eventually solve the issue - the customer-visible parts will be insulated from the old system with stuff that can handle Unicode. Chances are they currently don't have such insulation, producing documents with the wrong names, hence the complaint (bank statements are often used as proof of ID).
Btw this is not a stupid law. Accents are important parts of languages, the tech to handle them has been around for decades now, there is no excuse for willful illiteracy.
It's more than that. In many languages, they aren't accents but different letters. In Swedish, the letter ä is not just an a with two dots over it. It's a completely different letter, pronounced differently and is sorted in a different part of the alphabet. Changing ä to a could compeltely change the meaning of a word. For example, "räka" means shrimp, while "raka" means straight.
The same goes for names. Misspelling the name by not using the correct characters is frustrating and shouldn't be necessary when we have Unicode. I think everyone can imagine how annoying it would be to have a random letter in one's own name be replaced by some other letter.
Yes, I'm personally annoyed by this, since my name also has one of these letters.
The same goes for names. Misspelling the name by not using the correct characters is frustrating and shouldn't be necessary when we have Unicode. I think everyone can imagine how annoying it would be to have a random letter in one's own name be replaced by some other letter.
Yes, I'm personally annoyed by this, since my name also has one of these letters.
> This doesn't have that much to do with how a certain name is displayed anywhere.
Indeed it doesn't, so no thanks to you for muddling the issue by mixing that in.
> Can I get an airline to change their systems if they abbreviated my name on my boarding ticket?
Well, since they're the ones insisting that it look exactly like on your ID, if it looks different because they mangled it and then they don't let you board because of their own cock-up, then I'd imagine even you would be slightly miffed...?
So yes, you should be able to expect them to fix their systems so that doesn't happen, shouldn't you?
> The airline could say "well we have the proper name in this database over here". And so could the bank.
No they can't, because they don't: The point here was that this wasn't just some printing or other display function, but how the name was stored; as far as this bank was concerned, this customer's name was something it actually wasn't.
How one can claim this isn't in contravention of a law that states personally identifying data stored about people should be correct is frankly incomprehensible; our names are among the most personal things about us and our main identifyer.
All in all, your whole screed comes off as yet another piece of typical reflexive-but-unreflected pro-corporate (usually American) Libertarian dri^H^H^H propaganda.
Indeed it doesn't, so no thanks to you for muddling the issue by mixing that in.
> Can I get an airline to change their systems if they abbreviated my name on my boarding ticket?
Well, since they're the ones insisting that it look exactly like on your ID, if it looks different because they mangled it and then they don't let you board because of their own cock-up, then I'd imagine even you would be slightly miffed...?
So yes, you should be able to expect them to fix their systems so that doesn't happen, shouldn't you?
> The airline could say "well we have the proper name in this database over here". And so could the bank.
No they can't, because they don't: The point here was that this wasn't just some printing or other display function, but how the name was stored; as far as this bank was concerned, this customer's name was something it actually wasn't.
How one can claim this isn't in contravention of a law that states personally identifying data stored about people should be correct is frankly incomprehensible; our names are among the most personal things about us and our main identifyer.
All in all, your whole screed comes off as yet another piece of typical reflexive-but-unreflected pro-corporate (usually American) Libertarian dri^H^H^H propaganda.
I once worked for a newspaper while they were researching if dead people were voting in the state of Kentucky. The project would compare voter records with those of the deceased. The State responded to one of their open record requests with a a magnetic real about a foot in diameter, which I was tasked with decoding into a spreadsheet.
I took the magnetic reel to college with me that summer and asked around. Turns out they had magnetic tape reader for reels of this size hooked up their VAX system. A friendly sysadmin tried to read the data for me, but it came back has gibberish.
I wasn't surprised. Then he said "Aha! EBCDIC!" I hadn't heard it, but as the reel spoon and the names of the dead spun off the reel, he spun his own yard about this arcane format that was an ancient as the magnetic tape reel I'd brought it.
And yes, there were some dead people voting in Kentucky.
I took the magnetic reel to college with me that summer and asked around. Turns out they had magnetic tape reader for reels of this size hooked up their VAX system. A friendly sysadmin tried to read the data for me, but it came back has gibberish.
I wasn't surprised. Then he said "Aha! EBCDIC!" I hadn't heard it, but as the reel spoon and the names of the dead spun off the reel, he spun his own yard about this arcane format that was an ancient as the magnetic tape reel I'd brought it.
And yes, there were some dead people voting in Kentucky.
When suspected necromancy is afoot, of course you'd need to see a wizard about it.
The international banking system is coordinated by the SWIFT network, and all inter-bank messages are encoded in EBCDIC. If you transfer money between countries, or get statements from a broker, chances are it lived in EBCDIC at one point in it's journey.
Good on this consumer for dragging the bank through this. I'm sure the consumer probably got crap from friends/family about why they were doing this but this is sheer laziness on behalf of the bank and they deserve to be dragged through this to force them to uphold reasonable tech standards for all their customers. Glad that the EU has this option, I'm in the US and would use it more for stuff here :/
Not spending millions of dollars to appease people who are disproportionately upset over such a minor thing as missing accent marks is sheer laziness to you?
The point of the article is that their tech stack is embarrassingly out of date. A major institution shouldn't rely on ridiculous legacy tech from the 90s. If, for example, a bank is running on a PDP-8 I don't care if it costs millions to fix that, that's the banks problem.
Might be hundreds of millions or billions... Check out the pricetags of companies switching custom old legacy systems to "newer" SAP.
The first comment saying "Très intéressant !" looks hilarious in this context. I wonder if it has been made to look like this intentionally or not.
Certainly looks like a joke to me, especially given all the correctly rendered text, and the various encoding related comments. Was probably rendered like this.
$ echo "très intéressant" | iconv -f iso-8859-1 -t utf-8
très intéressant
$ echo "très intéressant" | iconv -f iso-8859-1 -t utf-8
très intéressant
... and in reverse with this very cool tool (found on HN I think) https://ftfy.vercel.app/?s=tr%C3%83%C2%A8s+int%C3%83%C2%A9re...
Well... you can do it in reverse with iconv too...
$ echo très intéressant | iconv -f utf-8 -t iso-8859-1
très intéressant
Admittedly no autodetection. Luckily EU mangling is usually just one or two encodings.
$ echo très intéressant | iconv -f utf-8 -t iso-8859-1
très intéressant
Admittedly no autodetection. Luckily EU mangling is usually just one or two encodings.
> Luckily EU mangling is usually just one or two encodings.
Just to list the iso-8859 parts concerning EU member states:
- iso-8859-1 (Latin-1, Western European, including German umlauts, French accents, etc)
- iso-8859-2 (Latin-2, Central European, including characters to support Polish, Czech, Slovakian, Hungarian and other)
- iso-8859-3 (Latin-3, South European, including characters to support Maltese)
- iso-8859-4 (Latin-4, North European, including characters to support the Baltic states)
- iso-8859-5 (Latin/Cyrillic, including characters to support Bulgarian)
- iso-8859-7 (Latin/Greek, including characters to support Greek)
- iso-8859-10 (Latin-6, Nordic, refinement of Latin-4, popular in Baltic states)
- iso-8859-13 (Latin-7, Baltic Rim, because -10 was not enough)
- iso-8859-15 (Latin-9, basically Latin-1 with the €-sign and some commonly used characters missing in Latin-1)
- iso-8859-16 (Latin-10, South-Eastern European, "Intended for Albanian, Croatian, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Slovene, but also Finnish, French, German and Irish Gaelic (new orthography)")
And they are all still in use. ;)
It seems to me -15 is now more popular than -1, probably because it supports the Euro currency sign.
Just to list the iso-8859 parts concerning EU member states:
- iso-8859-1 (Latin-1, Western European, including German umlauts, French accents, etc)
- iso-8859-2 (Latin-2, Central European, including characters to support Polish, Czech, Slovakian, Hungarian and other)
- iso-8859-3 (Latin-3, South European, including characters to support Maltese)
- iso-8859-4 (Latin-4, North European, including characters to support the Baltic states)
- iso-8859-5 (Latin/Cyrillic, including characters to support Bulgarian)
- iso-8859-7 (Latin/Greek, including characters to support Greek)
- iso-8859-10 (Latin-6, Nordic, refinement of Latin-4, popular in Baltic states)
- iso-8859-13 (Latin-7, Baltic Rim, because -10 was not enough)
- iso-8859-15 (Latin-9, basically Latin-1 with the €-sign and some commonly used characters missing in Latin-1)
- iso-8859-16 (Latin-10, South-Eastern European, "Intended for Albanian, Croatian, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Slovene, but also Finnish, French, German and Irish Gaelic (new orthography)")
And they are all still in use. ;)
It seems to me -15 is now more popular than -1, probably because it supports the Euro currency sign.
$ for i in {1..16};do echo -n "ISO-8559-$i: ";echo très intéressant | iconv -f utf-8 -t "iso-8859-$i" 2>&1;done | grep -Pv "illegal input|failed"
ISO-8559-1: très intéressant
ISO-8559-9: très intéressant
;)
ISO-8559-1: très intéressant
ISO-8559-9: très intéressant
;)
Oh, but that's not all! :)
Microsoft had its own Windows-125x codepages, which were not always compatible with ISO ones.
Microsoft had its own Windows-125x codepages, which were not always compatible with ISO ones.
GP did say "usually", and isn't it usually either -1 or -15?
I have also seen a lot of -3, -5, -7. And recently too ;) The others not that much, but not never either.
At least I believe I did, because often times you get that stuff without any hint what it is and then you can make a somewhat educated guess only.
There is still a lot of software out there that doesn't default to unicode but either some of the iso-8859's or some windows code page.
E.g. WordPad in Windows 10 uses the an ANSI code page when saving an .rtf (WordPad default format)[0] or as plain .txt[1]. But fret not if you're on macOS, my TextEdit just saved this when I created a new document and inserted a few ä-s (the TextEdit default is .rtf as well)
>Ohne Titel.rtf: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI, code page 1252
At least .rtf has some embedded metadata specifying the code page of the document and more! Including mixing in some unicode[2].
Why do I mention .rtf? Because there is a lot of .rtf out there, being saved and emailed around each day.
All bets are off for plain text formats that do not come with such useful metadata (except when it's some valid UTF (with BOM)).
There is also a ton of (old) email software/webmailers deployed that do not produce unicode. Some old and/or shitty enough to produce beautiful HTML soup that does not specify any character set at all. And all kinds of tools that produce text or csv and the like in all kinds of funky encodings that aren't anything unicode and quite often are selected based on the system locale or ANSI code page (on Windows). Or just hardcoded. Or yet better: mixing different encodings in the same file.
Do you want to read the exif metadata your camera embedded into those jpegs it spit out? The standard says everything is 7-bit ASCII, but of course that won't fly, so camera vendors and image editor vendors started using all kinds of encodings. And then there are vendor-specific additional tags. Windows XP's photo editor e.g. managed to smuggle in a creator tag that embeds the name of the user account which created/edited a file and it's using UCS-2/WTF-16, of course!
[0] To be fair, the format was specified long before there was unicode. To be even fairer, it's all 7-bit ASCII with escaped 8-bit whatever-codepage.
[1] There is an "Unicode text file" format option, which, you guessed it, saves it as... maybe WTF-16, maybe UCS-2, maybe UTF-16, not entirely sure, didn't check.
[2] If you need unicode, then the .rtf format lets you embed escaped unicode sequences inside the ANSI code page document :P
At least I believe I did, because often times you get that stuff without any hint what it is and then you can make a somewhat educated guess only.
There is still a lot of software out there that doesn't default to unicode but either some of the iso-8859's or some windows code page.
E.g. WordPad in Windows 10 uses the an ANSI code page when saving an .rtf (WordPad default format)[0] or as plain .txt[1]. But fret not if you're on macOS, my TextEdit just saved this when I created a new document and inserted a few ä-s (the TextEdit default is .rtf as well)
>Ohne Titel.rtf: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI, code page 1252
At least .rtf has some embedded metadata specifying the code page of the document and more! Including mixing in some unicode[2].
Why do I mention .rtf? Because there is a lot of .rtf out there, being saved and emailed around each day.
All bets are off for plain text formats that do not come with such useful metadata (except when it's some valid UTF (with BOM)).
There is also a ton of (old) email software/webmailers deployed that do not produce unicode. Some old and/or shitty enough to produce beautiful HTML soup that does not specify any character set at all. And all kinds of tools that produce text or csv and the like in all kinds of funky encodings that aren't anything unicode and quite often are selected based on the system locale or ANSI code page (on Windows). Or just hardcoded. Or yet better: mixing different encodings in the same file.
Do you want to read the exif metadata your camera embedded into those jpegs it spit out? The standard says everything is 7-bit ASCII, but of course that won't fly, so camera vendors and image editor vendors started using all kinds of encodings. And then there are vendor-specific additional tags. Windows XP's photo editor e.g. managed to smuggle in a creator tag that embeds the name of the user account which created/edited a file and it's using UCS-2/WTF-16, of course!
[0] To be fair, the format was specified long before there was unicode. To be even fairer, it's all 7-bit ASCII with escaped 8-bit whatever-codepage.
[1] There is an "Unicode text file" format option, which, you guessed it, saves it as... maybe WTF-16, maybe UCS-2, maybe UTF-16, not entirely sure, didn't check.
[2] If you need unicode, then the .rtf format lets you embed escaped unicode sequences inside the ANSI code page document :P
I'm sure it was deliberate. Got a good laugh out of it!
Every problem can be solved with an additional level of indirection. For example use html character entities for characters that are not representable in the DB character set.
And/or rename the existing "Name" field to "Named-based Index Key" and add a new field for Name.
Our just leave it with "Named-based Index Key"... "no sir, we aren't able to correct your name since we don't store names in our database."
[deleted]
One of the fun things about EBCDIC is that 370 assembler has opcode-level support for converting an EBCDIC-encoded numeric string into an integer (and maybe the other way around too, it's been a while). This is one of two things I remember about my now-ancient 370 assembler knowledge. The other is that there is no built-in support for maintaining a call stack. It is up to each subroutine to handle this and there were some weird declarations around this to indicate whether a subroutine was reentrant, the definition of which escapes me now.
And people shouldn't criticize EBCDIC too much, after all Windows still dumps a lot of crap in legacy 8-bit coding that can cause applications to break (there was a recent post on HN about someone being unable to run the IntelliJ debugger because of an accent in their username). At least EBCDIC is clear about its limitations.¹
⸻⸻⸻
1. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out one other EBCDIC weirdness: It has two vertical bars, | and ¦ which always caused complications in translations between EBCDIC and ASCII. IIRC, ¦ was the more common symbol in EBCDIC coding but some converters wanted to translate | to | instead (or maybe it was the other way around—the last time I did IBM big metal was 30 years ago).
And people shouldn't criticize EBCDIC too much, after all Windows still dumps a lot of crap in legacy 8-bit coding that can cause applications to break (there was a recent post on HN about someone being unable to run the IntelliJ debugger because of an accent in their username). At least EBCDIC is clear about its limitations.¹
⸻⸻⸻
1. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out one other EBCDIC weirdness: It has two vertical bars, | and ¦ which always caused complications in translations between EBCDIC and ASCII. IIRC, ¦ was the more common symbol in EBCDIC coding but some converters wanted to translate | to | instead (or maybe it was the other way around—the last time I did IBM big metal was 30 years ago).
> there was a recent post on HN about someone being unable to run the IntelliJ debugger because of an accent
That's not Windows, that's JVM weirdness. Using the right calls, this sort of thing has been fine in Windows for some time.
That's not Windows, that's JVM weirdness. Using the right calls, this sort of thing has been fine in Windows for some time.
It's JVM weirdness on Windows. This isn't a problem on Linux or MacOS where file paths won't be in some arbitrary encoding. This ends up biting a lot of other cross-platform software as well and is why Rust has OSString, but for code in, say, C/C++ it ends up being a major pain point (the TeX development team often end up dealing with this sort of issue).
It's actually on Linux where file paths can be just about any byte sequence. They're restricted to be UTF-8 on APFS/HFS+ (with some complicated case folding rules) and UCS-2 on NTFS.
UCS-2? I thought it was UTF-16?
It's UCS-2, unfortunately, which means that unpaired surrogates are allowed.
You can have unmatched surrogates in the name, for example.
File paths on Windows aren't in some arbitrary encoding either?
Can someone comment on what assumptions those banks are permitted to make regarding names?
E.g., can they assume that names can be expressed as a sequence of (current) Unicode characters with some specific maximum length? Can they assume that names have no leading / trailing spaces?
E.g., can they assume that names can be expressed as a sequence of (current) Unicode characters with some specific maximum length? Can they assume that names have no leading / trailing spaces?
Probably reasonable assumptions. When you're not sure, assume the standard will be reasonableness, because that's what the law assumes when it isn't specified.
So, you can make reasonable assumptions. What is reasonable will change, which is fine because the way courts figure out what's reasonable in some particular case is to either have the judge decide, or have a jury decide, and people change too.
The nice thing about reasonableness is that you are equipped to make a first pass at judging it yourself, since you are presumably a reasonable person. If you need second guessing, have a team mate consider it, and, if you're worried that your collective idea of "reasonable" might be distorted in an important way, that'll be why your organisation probably encouraged diversity to avoid that.
You might say, this seems awful because it isn't precise enough to say, implement it as a Javascript library. That's true, but intentional. Justice will necessarily involve such judgement calls, and trying to evade that by specifying everything precisely with no room for judgement is a bug not a feature.
So, you can make reasonable assumptions. What is reasonable will change, which is fine because the way courts figure out what's reasonable in some particular case is to either have the judge decide, or have a jury decide, and people change too.
The nice thing about reasonableness is that you are equipped to make a first pass at judging it yourself, since you are presumably a reasonable person. If you need second guessing, have a team mate consider it, and, if you're worried that your collective idea of "reasonable" might be distorted in an important way, that'll be why your organisation probably encouraged diversity to avoid that.
You might say, this seems awful because it isn't precise enough to say, implement it as a Javascript library. That's true, but intentional. Justice will necessarily involve such judgement calls, and trying to evade that by specifying everything precisely with no room for judgement is a bug not a feature.
I believe that the main assumption they can make is that they can use the name on the ID forms issued by the government or, in case of foreign citizens, their passports. Due to history of international diplomacy, the general standard for passports expects that in addition to whatever script the country uses, they will also include the name of the person in English or French - so this is the key source of the problem, as for passports in e.g. Russian you will get an "English" name that you might use, however, you may get passports with names only in French, so you would have to support the English and French alphabets but perhaps not necessarily any others.
Regarding trailing spaces etc, IMHO the standard would be "as shown in passport" i.e. trailing spaces definitely would not matter, but spaces and punctuation between words would (e.g. D'Artagnan as a name). I looked for but did not find any specific restrictions on name length. In general, the country will have regulations on what they accept as names in their official IDs, and again you may piggyback on other institutions - as long as you accept everything for which your government have issued documents, you should be fine; and if someone has an interesting case that requires changing the process, let that fight happen between them and the government first.
Regarding trailing spaces etc, IMHO the standard would be "as shown in passport" i.e. trailing spaces definitely would not matter, but spaces and punctuation between words would (e.g. D'Artagnan as a name). I looked for but did not find any specific restrictions on name length. In general, the country will have regulations on what they accept as names in their official IDs, and again you may piggyback on other institutions - as long as you accept everything for which your government have issued documents, you should be fine; and if someone has an interesting case that requires changing the process, let that fight happen between them and the government first.
I think that it has to be reasonable. Assuming that your French-speaking target region has only names without accents is unreasonable. Assuming a maximum length of 200(?) utf8 codepoints(or even bytes) seems reasonable (defendable) in court. Same for leading/trailing spaces.
The longest personal name, according to the Guinness World Records, was 747 characters long, and happened to be in a latin alphabet. So I guess ~ 1000 bytes should be OK. Or even maybe what could be enough to fit 200 arbitrary utf8 codepoints, so 800 bytes.
If you want to be safe maybe allow for up to 1000 arbitrary codepoints? :)
If you want to be safe maybe allow for up to 1000 arbitrary codepoints? :)
Oh man, I don't want to be in the queue behind that guy while he spells out his name to the clerk.
I'm somewhat wondering to what extent a bank is required to support storing the names natively.
I mean something like "${name} spelled with an acute accent on the e" would be technically a correct description even if it is impractical to use. The GDPR does grant you the right to correct your personal information but doesn't specify how this information is represented.
As far as I can tell the GDPR also doesn't grant the customer the right to have their name represented correctly on their bank pass (otherwise everyone with a long surname would require impractically long bank passes), the court only ruled that the inability of the bank to store the name correctly simply isn't an excuse.
I mean something like "${name} spelled with an acute accent on the e" would be technically a correct description even if it is impractical to use. The GDPR does grant you the right to correct your personal information but doesn't specify how this information is represented.
As far as I can tell the GDPR also doesn't grant the customer the right to have their name represented correctly on their bank pass (otherwise everyone with a long surname would require impractically long bank passes), the court only ruled that the inability of the bank to store the name correctly simply isn't an excuse.
I wonder if there are any limits on this from the GDPR perspective? What if my name has 2^40 characters in it? Are companies required to support that? What if I change my name from whatever it is today (say, "Phillip") to a name that has 2^40 characters? Would the bank be required to accommodate that? etc..
In civil law countries (after Brexit, 100% of EU is civil law) generally you can't change your name at will or by simply starting to use it, it usually requires asserting one of specific reasons that (in the eyes of the law) justify a name change, a request to authorities and their approval - which would be denied if you wanted to change your name to something that has 2^40 characters.
If you did officially change your name to something interesting, I presume the bank would definitely have to accommodate it; but the restrictive part would be the process of actually changing your name.
If you did officially change your name to something interesting, I presume the bank would definitely have to accommodate it; but the restrictive part would be the process of actually changing your name.
The GDPR contains language that makes its provisions relative to the current techical state of the art. A bank can clearly not be expected to store all the 2^40 bytes of a person's name :)
If the bank still relies on legacy software and IT standards, well it's just its fault. They cannot expect people with diacritics or other non-ASCII characters in their name just to spell it incorrectly because their systems do not support Unicode in the twenty-twenties.
Maybe their IT team had other priorities than replacing EBCDIC with Unicode (or whatever they find more appropriate for their systems), but this is an indicator of poor interest in technological progress by the bank itself. It reminds me some banks that gave millions to Microsoft to keep ATMs running Windows XP after its end of life.
Edit: I elaborated a bit more and I realized that it might be more difficult than just replace the character encoding standard to a more modern one. For example, the name of the account owner likely needs to match exactly the holder name on the credit card associated with the account, and I'm not sure if diacritics can be embossed correctly on the card.
Maybe their IT team had other priorities than replacing EBCDIC with Unicode (or whatever they find more appropriate for their systems), but this is an indicator of poor interest in technological progress by the bank itself. It reminds me some banks that gave millions to Microsoft to keep ATMs running Windows XP after its end of life.
Edit: I elaborated a bit more and I realized that it might be more difficult than just replace the character encoding standard to a more modern one. For example, the name of the account owner likely needs to match exactly the holder name on the credit card associated with the account, and I'm not sure if diacritics can be embossed correctly on the card.
Heh, if you're looking for a good example of Technical Debt…
Yes, already in 1995 Unicode was an established standard (even Windows 95 started to support it). The bank should have known it would be a requirement in the future.
Yes, already in 1995 Unicode was an established standard (even Windows 95 started to support it). The bank should have known it would be a requirement in the future.
Unicode's old enough that Windows NT was built to work with it natively. In fact, all the "ANSI" Windows API calls in NT were just wrapper functions around the Unicode equivalents handling Unicode/code-page conversions. And this was 1993.
Yup, in fact the biggest compatibility headaches in NT today stem from how early they adopted it: they made some assumptions about UCS-2 that turned out to be wrong and had to shoehorn in UTF-16 support that mostly works (except when it falls over a cliff). Meanwhile Linux and others waited for UTF-8 to exist and that's become the internet/web's major standard as well and there are some small papercuts interoperating between UTF-16 and UTF-8 that with today's hindsight shouldn't have been so annoying or necessary. Windows might have been better off waiting for UTF-8 itself other than Windows made the right architectural decision for the time when it made that decision and could not have suspected UTF-8 to turn up only a few years later.
> Meanwhile Linux and others waited for UTF-8
UTF-8 was already a thing in Plan9.
UTF-8 was already a thing in Plan9.
UTF-8 was standardized in 1996[1][2]. As for its use in Linux, for example Debian switched to use UTF-8 as default in Etch[3], released in 2007[4].
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2044
[2] https://www.iso.org/standard/26223.html
[3] https://www.debian.org/releases/etch/amd64/release-notes/ch-...
[4] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEtch
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2044
[2] https://www.iso.org/standard/26223.html
[3] https://www.debian.org/releases/etch/amd64/release-notes/ch-...
[4] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEtch
UTf-8 in Plan9 is from 1992.
UTF-8 was first presented to IETF at Usenix in January 1993. NT 1.0 shipped June 1993 and had been in development for several years before that.
The famous "Plan 9 implemented UTF-8 first" thread's most specific date mentioned was September 1992 which only three months more lead time before the standardization notice in January 1993.
Are you suggesting the NT Kernel team should have somehow better paid attention to a not-yet-standard from a research laboratory Operating System? It still probably would have been a couple years too late in the design/architecture process even if they had, given the release data in June 1993.
The famous "Plan 9 implemented UTF-8 first" thread's most specific date mentioned was September 1992 which only three months more lead time before the standardization notice in January 1993.
Are you suggesting the NT Kernel team should have somehow better paid attention to a not-yet-standard from a research laboratory Operating System? It still probably would have been a couple years too late in the design/architecture process even if they had, given the release data in June 1993.
NT was already a functional OS in October 1991: https://betawiki.net/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1_October_1991_build and http://www.os2museum.com/wp/installing-oct-91-nt-from-cd/
Those decisions were already way beyond locked back then.
Those decisions were already way beyond locked back then.
UTF-8 dates back to 1992.
http://xahlee.info/comp/unicode_utf8_history.html
http://xahlee.info/comp/unicode_utf8_history.html
When speaking with hindsight, it's easy to make the mistake of conflating a point in time where an idea existed/was published (an easy fact to establish upper bounds on through records) with a point in time where that idea was popular and/or taken seriously (much harder to establish and usually localized).
My friend often is having issues with flying, because his name is written as Maksims, and old booking systems think Ms at the end means missis.(he is male)
Crazy shit everywhere in these old systems.
Crazy shit everywhere in these old systems.
Imagine you maintain this system and somebody named X Æ A-XII Musk will try to register.
Jokes aside. I know a person named exactly like me just with a small diacritic difference. I realize they use secondary identifiers but this is identity theft waiting to happen.
Jokes aside. I know a person named exactly like me just with a small diacritic difference. I realize they use secondary identifiers but this is identity theft waiting to happen.
I suspect that kid is going to change his name as soon as he can. Was taking their fantasy name and turning it into something like "Ashton Archangel Musk" too just too pedestrian for them?
I unfortunately have a number of people who have the same name as me. Get emails for them sometimes...
I unfortunately have a number of people who have the same name as me. Get emails for them sometimes...
I go by Kayodé online (Kay (actually Qué) oh Deh), which isn't the African name Kayode (Ki-oh-Day or Ki-oh-Dee).
The number of places that don't support diacritics this is absolutely mind-boggling.
The number of places that don't support diacritics this is absolutely mind-boggling.
> Jokes aside. I know a person named exactly like me just with a small diacritic difference. I realize they use secondary identifiers but this is identity theft waiting to happen.
I don't see how that really makes identity theft any worse. There's already a ton of people with exactly identical names, and differing only in diacritics isn't any worse than that is.
I don't see how that really makes identity theft any worse. There's already a ton of people with exactly identical names, and differing only in diacritics isn't any worse than that is.
More articles should have a "Dance" section.
I have two middle names and a hyphenated family name. It is too long for US passports. But not too long, for some reason, for my California drivers license.
This makes checking in for flights a nightmare, since the names do not match. Domestic flights are OK, but I cannot checkin online for any international flight, I have to go to the airport to check in.
This makes checking in for flights a nightmare, since the names do not match. Domestic flights are OK, but I cannot checkin online for any international flight, I have to go to the airport to check in.
Sounds like the perfect use-case for UTF-7? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-7
No, I'm not entirely serious.
No, I'm not entirely serious.
You probably want UTF-EBCDIC instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28987256
Mainframes, COBOL, and databases that store data in formats that replicate the hard limits of paper punch cards are a real problem. Banks, insurers, and governmental institutions won't get rid of them and choose to surround those fossils of IT with layer upon layer of tech that gets outdated the moment it gets delivered. I was on a project where we were told to come up with an alternative way of encoding UUID4s, because "bank X runs their DB on a mainframe and they only have N bytes they can use for an ID."
It used to be a given that nobody wanted their bank to run on anything, but mainframes. Now we'd rather they used cloud computing and Postgres. Mainframes have had their day. They may have a future, but they need modern databases and development tools.
It used to be a given that nobody wanted their bank to run on anything, but mainframes. Now we'd rather they used cloud computing and Postgres. Mainframes have had their day. They may have a future, but they need modern databases and development tools.
> It used to be a given that nobody wanted their bank to run on anything, but mainframes. Now we'd rather they used cloud computing and Postgres. Mainframes have had their day. They may have a future, but they need modern databases and development tools.
I suspect you ask random Joe on the street they would say they would rather be on a mainframe.
Also, I would much rather my bank didn't host on AWS, GCP, Azure, etc.
I suspect you ask random Joe on the street they would say they would rather be on a mainframe.
Also, I would much rather my bank didn't host on AWS, GCP, Azure, etc.
Mainframe nowadays do support modern language and modern tech stack. It's just no one willing to move on to the next stack.(or probably too expensive to)
For example, IBM z runs linux.
Backward compatibility is one of the biggest selling point mainframes provide, you can run code written 30 years ago with all limitation and bug preserved as is.
And IBM z can also run many program write for original ibm/360 unmodified.
Probably many ones decided to do so.
For example, IBM z runs linux.
Backward compatibility is one of the biggest selling point mainframes provide, you can run code written 30 years ago with all limitation and bug preserved as is.
And IBM z can also run many program write for original ibm/360 unmodified.
Probably many ones decided to do so.
The technological state of the art at the backend is a circle. You don't have to squint that hard to see the similarities between a hypervisor running hundreds of VMs and a mainframe running hundreds of batch jobs. The difference is just that the mainframe is usually (but not always) co-located with the bank. But small bank branches might completely lack mainframe systems on their own.
"Technologies that replicate the hard limits of paper punch cards" and "mainframe" are not necessarily synonymous. You can make bad decisions with any given set of hardware/software you choose to use.
Mainframes have outrageous transaction processing and reliability/redundancy capabilities. If anything, mainframes and modern programming techniques for them are underrated, largely because dumb licensing on the tooling keeps people from realizing their capabilities.
Mainframes have outrageous transaction processing and reliability/redundancy capabilities. If anything, mainframes and modern programming techniques for them are underrated, largely because dumb licensing on the tooling keeps people from realizing their capabilities.
> The bank didn't have support for diacritical marks. Things like á, è, ô, ü, ç etc.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, EBCDIC does have support for all of the characters used as examples. Specifically, code page 37 - the "default" US EBCDIC code page and one apparently widely used on IBM mainframes[0] - has the characters at 0x45, 0x54, 0xCB, 0xDC, and 0x48 respectively.
(Actually, code page 37 has all characters that are in ISO-8859-1, they're just in different positions.)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_Page_37
Unless I'm misunderstanding, EBCDIC does have support for all of the characters used as examples. Specifically, code page 37 - the "default" US EBCDIC code page and one apparently widely used on IBM mainframes[0] - has the characters at 0x45, 0x54, 0xCB, 0xDC, and 0x48 respectively.
(Actually, code page 37 has all characters that are in ISO-8859-1, they're just in different positions.)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_Page_37
You are correct. I have a mainframe right here in front of me, with a "test card" of all 256 byte values. There certainly are accented characters in most code pages.
The problem is that they are difficult to deal with. They cause problems with data entry. They make sorting more complicated. They make searching difficult. etc etc. At my current site names are even stored in uppercase to reduce these issues.
I welcome efforts like this to force computers to be more compatible with people - many mainframe systems are stuck in the dark ages of "to hard to be flexible" and need to be kicked into the 21st century.
The problem is that they are difficult to deal with. They cause problems with data entry. They make sorting more complicated. They make searching difficult. etc etc. At my current site names are even stored in uppercase to reduce these issues.
I welcome efforts like this to force computers to be more compatible with people - many mainframe systems are stuck in the dark ages of "to hard to be flexible" and need to be kicked into the 21st century.
.. until it ends with "SWIFT is incompatible with GDPR".
(Okay, privacy wise, some might have uneasiness with SWIFT but we're talking about how it can't handle (in this case) characters outside US-ASCII, unless you have negotiated it with the bank you're sending on, which if it's a US bank, is not supported: https://twitter.com/ajlobster/status/735240869859753985)
(Okay, privacy wise, some might have uneasiness with SWIFT but we're talking about how it can't handle (in this case) characters outside US-ASCII, unless you have negotiated it with the bank you're sending on, which if it's a US bank, is not supported: https://twitter.com/ajlobster/status/735240869859753985)
I'm not sure about the speed and schedule of adoption, but I believe that SWIFT systems across the world (including USA!) are migrating towards ISO 20022 messages which has technical support for characters outside US-ASCII; and requirements such as these are a driving factor to migrate away from the earlier SWIFT MT standards.
... hopefully, but I wouldn't be shocked if the systems can technically receive Unicode-encoded transfers but then "convert" it into ASCII/EBCDIC at their mainframes :/
Question: does the bank have the right to say, "I'm sorry Mr potential customer, but we can't meet your requirements so are unable to give you an account"? Or is it essentially required that everyone doing business must do things like keep all computer systems modernized?
Belgian law, if I am not mistaken, requires that every Belgian (European?) Inhabitant has access to a basic package. The bank can deny access to credit etc, but an account and a (normal debet) bank card are a right.
Such a complaint is hard to defend if the customer presents a government-issued identification document. If governments can agree on certain technical standards, even though some of them are actively hostile to each other on other important matters, surely banks can be expected to comply with some of them too.
The bank is entitled to use whatever internal representation they like (although they better don't misidentify persons), but they better be able to print the correct name in forms and letters.
The embossed name on payment cards is a separate, more troublesome issue. The bank should provide appropriate documentation as evidence if the cardholder's embossed name could not be spelled correctly because of limited technical standards.
The bank is entitled to use whatever internal representation they like (although they better don't misidentify persons), but they better be able to print the correct name in forms and letters.
The embossed name on payment cards is a separate, more troublesome issue. The bank should provide appropriate documentation as evidence if the cardholder's embossed name could not be spelled correctly because of limited technical standards.
I wanted to say that they should not have that right, however, looking at GDPR, perhaps it's not forbidden after all.
However, it's worth noting that it's not just a single exceptional person - Belgium has accented letters in two of their three official languages and names with accents are reasonably common, so if you tried that, you would have to discard many customers, and also those customers would be overwhelmingly from the french-speaking part of the country so that might be treated as explicit discrimination targeting the french-speaking minority community.
However, it's worth noting that it's not just a single exceptional person - Belgium has accented letters in two of their three official languages and names with accents are reasonably common, so if you tried that, you would have to discard many customers, and also those customers would be overwhelmingly from the french-speaking part of the country so that might be treated as explicit discrimination targeting the french-speaking minority community.
In 2018 I inherited a rather large website, and have been slowly fixing it to support unicode because many of the users want to use their real names, not an English-hack version of it.
It is WAY more complicated than I thought it would be. There is so much code that manipulates strings that is not unicode aware.
I've fixed the simple things, like places where the user name is displayed, etc., but the email subsystem is a train wreck and there are still places in the database where I couldn't retroactively fix old entries. Going on 4 years fixing this!
But EBCDIC? Damn, opportunity to make lots of $$ here fixing people's code. I had friends that made bank on Y2K prep in the mid-90's.
It is WAY more complicated than I thought it would be. There is so much code that manipulates strings that is not unicode aware.
I've fixed the simple things, like places where the user name is displayed, etc., but the email subsystem is a train wreck and there are still places in the database where I couldn't retroactively fix old entries. Going on 4 years fixing this!
But EBCDIC? Damn, opportunity to make lots of $$ here fixing people's code. I had friends that made bank on Y2K prep in the mid-90's.
> email subsystem is a train wreck
Actually, which email system supports email addresses with non-ASCII user names? And which additionally supports IDN domains?
Actually, which email system supports email addresses with non-ASCII user names? And which additionally supports IDN domains?
Actually, there are other parts to the email subsystem besides the POP/SMPT interface, such as code that dynamically generates the subject and body, and have lots of regex and string manip code in them.
It seems like there should be some technical solutions though. Maybe just use the name field in the mainframe DB as a unique hash of the utf-8 encoded name and store the real utf-8 encoded name in an external DB or something.
Are there precedence of legal requirements for diacritic support? Does it extend to all latin diacritics or popular regional subsets. I remember a Chinese scholar pushing for multiple language email address standard years ago, thinking it would be neat (and profoundly inpractical). Also maybe I'm misremembering, I swear I've seen arabic email addresses before.
Makes me wonder what the rules for registered names are: is a registered name a series of characters from an existing writing system, that would hopefully be compatible with Unicode, or is it anything a human being could possibly write on a piece of paper, including something that has no equivalent in any writing system?
Governments usually have their own standards and rules on which names they would recognize and how they would store them. They would reject names that are impossibly long or can only be spelled with homegrown writing systems, same as they would reject stuff like "Fuuk Yu".
Edit: on the downside, they would probably also reject many reasonable names.
Edit: on the downside, they would probably also reject many reasonable names.
I don't know about Belgium, but at least Finland has whole committee deciding on what are legal names and what are not
https://oikeusministerio-fi.translate.goog/nimilautakunta?_x...
https://oikeusministerio-fi.translate.goog/nimilautakunta?_x...
(Decision from 2019, unfortunately article doesn’t add updated information on if/how the bank solved this)
I have to admit, I did not have "EBCDIC" && "GDPR" on my 2021 bingo card.
So, the part of the GDPR the bank was unable to comply with here is the "right to rectification".
That suggests that the bank made a 'mistake' when it recorded the name in its system as well as it could. I don't think that should count as a mistake. The information in the bank's system is as good as it could be, so there is nothing to rectify.
It feels weird to me when privacy legislation turns out to require supporting UTF-8. I think something in the legal process went wrong here.
That suggests that the bank made a 'mistake' when it recorded the name in its system as well as it could. I don't think that should count as a mistake. The information in the bank's system is as good as it could be, so there is nothing to rectify.
It feels weird to me when privacy legislation turns out to require supporting UTF-8. I think something in the legal process went wrong here.
Yes. Provided there is a defined protocol when handling unrepresentable characters in the system, like è -> e, the information is not "inaccurate". It is merely imprecise. You could imagine explicitly putting ? instead, which would carry strictly less information - but would still be "accurate" in the sense that it doesn't assert a falsehood.
Considering that the P in GDPR stands for Protection, not Privacy, the scope of the legislation is significantly broader. If we look at the ISO standard for information security, ISO 27001, apart from the confidentiality and accessibility of data, it considers integrity as one of the three things to consider when classifying data and similarly, the GDPR expect PID to be handled in a manner that assures correctness at the very least.
In the specific case of this bank, like everyone else, they were expected to update systems unable to comply with the legislation within the grace period and yet it seems that they were unwilling or unable to update or replace a system that is incapable of achieving data integrity in a matter as basic as the name of a customer.
In the specific case of this bank, like everyone else, they were expected to update systems unable to comply with the legislation within the grace period and yet it seems that they were unwilling or unable to update or replace a system that is incapable of achieving data integrity in a matter as basic as the name of a customer.
But it's just not true that everyone else was expected to do this. Credit card names are still running on ASCII! (I'm also, to be frank, highly skeptical that the court would have taken such a hard line if the customer had been complaining that Chinese characters aren't supported or that his Arabic name should be written right to left.)
That's not quite the issue at hand though. In that situation, the bank should be opening an account with the correct name then issuing a credit card with an ASCII-converted name. This would be acceptable because the personal information is stored correctly, it's just represented in simplified form on the card. The issue in the article is that the bank couldn't even open an account with the correct name.
I suspect this will be fixed by storing the correct name in an external system and using an ID number or similar to refer to the customer on EBCDIC systems.
I suspect this will be fixed by storing the correct name in an external system and using an ID number or similar to refer to the customer on EBCDIC systems.
That all sounds reasonable to me as a matter of customer-friendly system design, but it's not obvious to me why it would satisfy the court here. If using a customer's properly formatted name is a GDPR requirement, it seems like it'd be required in all cases; GDPR doesn't have any sort of "nbd if it's too hard to comply" clause.
> It feels weird to me when privacy legislation turns out to require supporting UTF-8.
No. It requires you to store data correctly. And in the case of a bank storing data incorrectly could have potential ramifications (think two different people, one with diacritics and without).
The law doesn't care whether you use UTF-8 or a manually written translation table, or a 15th-century printing press
No. It requires you to store data correctly. And in the case of a bank storing data incorrectly could have potential ramifications (think two different people, one with diacritics and without).
The law doesn't care whether you use UTF-8 or a manually written translation table, or a 15th-century printing press
> And in the case of a bank storing data incorrectly could have potential ramifications (think two different people, one with diacritics and without).
Surely this situation wouldn't cause any issues though right? If they are relying on names as unique identifiers, they've got far bigger problems than a users name being spelled incorrectly.
Surely this situation wouldn't cause any issues though right? If they are relying on names as unique identifiers, they've got far bigger problems than a users name being spelled incorrectly.
No, but banks interact with people - both customers and employees. People interpret names. Errors like this could be used to, for example, impersonate someone (by tricking an employee), or deny someone service (e.g. via a clerk who behaves like a zombie, a protein peripheral of the bank's computer system).
Issues? Depends on what you mean. Maybe not practical issues, but I for sure would be offended if my bank refused to use my actual name.
I find this whole ordeal delightful, and applaud the intention of the GDPR and the ways the courts upheld it in this case.
I find this whole ordeal delightful, and applaud the intention of the GDPR and the ways the courts upheld it in this case.
In a similar case in Ireland they ruled in favor of the data controller:
> Following an eight-month investigation, the Data Protection Commission (DPC) have ruled that individuals do not have an 'absolute right' to have their names spelled with fadas.
https://ireland.bloomsburyprofessional.com/blog/no-right-to-...
> Following an eight-month investigation, the Data Protection Commission (DPC) have ruled that individuals do not have an 'absolute right' to have their names spelled with fadas.
https://ireland.bloomsburyprofessional.com/blog/no-right-to-...
That was an abomination of a ruling.
I find it amazing that the Data Protection Commissioner basically went against the constitution which clearly states that Irish is the first language of Ireland.
I find it amazing that the Data Protection Commissioner basically went against the constitution which clearly states that Irish is the first language of Ireland.
Just store UTF-8 in base64 encoding, it's compatible with ebcdic.
Try booking a flight with diacritics in your name. Same situation.
What's funny is when the system explicitly requires "Write your name exactly as in the passport" and then fails validation by requiring only unaccented latin letters only, so it's impossible to fulfill both conditions at the same time.
They might have jumped the gun since new passports can't have accents but older ones might.
If EBCDIC is incompatible with GDPR, then so are machine-readable passports as the format only allows ascii letters A-Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine-readable_passport#Name...
That seems like a sufficiently different scenario to me (as a non-expert) that I think a court could reasonably reach a different conclusion.
Firstly, if a government decides to "comply" with the GDPR by just seizing and revoking your passport, you might not have a case against them as the granting of passports could be considered a Royal Prerogative (or an equivalent under other systems of government) and thus non-justiciable. You might try to claim this is discrimination, but I don't think that "non-ASCII characters in name" is a legally protected class, and of course anyone could change their name to have or avoid non-ASCII characters.
Also, if the format is designed to be machine-readable, then arguably the "accuracy" of your name on the passport has to be judged by the machine, not by you as the holder of that name. Moreover, the format is agreed as a consequence of an international treaty, which again might put it beyond the jurisdiction of a domestic court, and if your passport was declared invalid by a nation you were attempting to enter because it contained non-standard characters, that is not something that a domestic court could provide a remedy to.
Firstly, if a government decides to "comply" with the GDPR by just seizing and revoking your passport, you might not have a case against them as the granting of passports could be considered a Royal Prerogative (or an equivalent under other systems of government) and thus non-justiciable. You might try to claim this is discrimination, but I don't think that "non-ASCII characters in name" is a legally protected class, and of course anyone could change their name to have or avoid non-ASCII characters.
Also, if the format is designed to be machine-readable, then arguably the "accuracy" of your name on the passport has to be judged by the machine, not by you as the holder of that name. Moreover, the format is agreed as a consequence of an international treaty, which again might put it beyond the jurisdiction of a domestic court, and if your passport was declared invalid by a nation you were attempting to enter because it contained non-standard characters, that is not something that a domestic court could provide a remedy to.
"My name is the complete work of Shakespeare, no, no not 'The Complete work of Shakespeare,' I mean the concatenated plays and poems, and I would like you to address me as such in any formal communications. Thank you for being GDPR compliant."
You can't change your name at will in Belgium (where this case was). And I think in most of Europe the government has reasonableness requirements on the names you can give your kids. Elon Musk's strange combination would be refused for example.
Someone I know told me that he got a German passport, but absolute garbage as his name in there because his actual name is in Arabic.
I wonder how airline reservations systems like Sabre are going deal with this.
That's one way to get your account cancelled.
Not sure about Belgium specifically, but at least in UK the bank can't close your account without a valid court order. They can temporarily suspend it if they suspect you of some crime, but in general a normal checking account cannot be closed by the bank "just because". I'd expect it to work the same way in all of EU.
That's great! Should be the same in the US, and also apply to payment processors.
Since banking account history has to be stored and provided for literal decades after account closure, they would still have to implement the changes even if that customer left, as they will still be processing his data and have to do it according to the law.
I'm sure that cancelling accounts of people with "funny" spellings, will definitely not get the bank in trouble for (indirect) discrimination at all.
Or in the future, getting international payments disabled (including most credit cards).
ooof... didn't GDPR also have some strong opinions on retaliation though?
Simple to fix comparing to GDPR in general. Like where there are local laws that overlap and then EU laws that overlap that and then GDPR upon that. It is not like you can just follow GDPR cause then you may break a bunch of other laws.
The ruling was that the bank has to change:
https://gdprhub.eu/index.php?title=Court_of_Appeal_of_Brusse...
https://gdprhub.eu/index.php?title=Court_of_Appeal_of_Brusse...
oh, now I wonder if I can cite GDPR (and Dutch government for their BRP thing) and ask my bank to spell my name in a proper Ukrainian Cyrillic the same way it is done in my id.
My brother-in-law has an apostrophe in his last name and almost no systems bother to support it and it is in the character set. If this is an example of an appropriate use of GDPR, wow.
According to the author's tweet, the customer sued and won: https://twitter.com/edent/status/1450731852302532608
I wonder why this fact is absent from the blog post?
This is a baffling ruling. I don't think an inability to support funny characters should be considered a GDPR violation. Anyone can put any characters they want in their name, and everyone is not breaking the law just because Unicode doesn't have made-up squiggles.
I wonder why this fact is absent from the blog post?
This is a baffling ruling. I don't think an inability to support funny characters should be considered a GDPR violation. Anyone can put any characters they want in their name, and everyone is not breaking the law just because Unicode doesn't have made-up squiggles.
First, just to be clear, these are not by any means “funny characters”. These are perfectly normal characters in languages used by these people.
Second, if you were trying to make a point that people can put Unicode emoji in their names, well, try doing that on a birth certificate and tell me what the registration office tells you. If you successfully manage to get an actual “funny character” in your legal name, let me know.
Second, if you were trying to make a point that people can put Unicode emoji in their names, well, try doing that on a birth certificate and tell me what the registration office tells you. If you successfully manage to get an actual “funny character” in your legal name, let me know.
For a lot of the world the characters you are typing with are “funny characters”.
At least 1.4B of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
People are so prissy about the unicode representation of their name while forgetting that even that is a machine-only representation made to approximate the technical limitations of printing presses and is different from anything they can write by hand or speak with their mouth. If you want the bank to use your "real" name, for most people, it needs to be spoken or possibly hand written. And it had better be in the correct accent or writing style too. In other words, storm in a teacup.
I want to suggest that businesses should be penalized somehow for using “ancient” technology, but then on the other hand you have roman concrete…
You shouldn't penalize stuff for being old. You should penalize stuff for being bad. Not being able to accurately store and represent customers' names is the problem here, not that it's old.
Yeah, that was my point..
>EBCDIC is an ancient (and much hated) "standard" which should have been fired into the sun a long time ago. It baffles me that it was still being used in 1995 - let alone today.
I want a pony.
I want a pony.
This led to problems when they instituted their trusted ID compliance. When renewing the license we were required to provide some combination of documentation to corroborate our identity, and obviously that documentation needs to match the name shown on the driver's license - and of course mine did not.
There was one way out for Christophers like myself. A birth certificate was considered the ultimate truth, so as long as I had a notarized (with the raised seal) birth certificate to prove my identity, they would allow me to renew my license.
The State of New Jersey is very awful at IT. My wife, who works in healthcare finance, told me about problems she was having with the State because - get this - their field for what amounts to "Medicaid ID#" was too narrow, so they had to recycle ID#s for new recipients! And to make that worse, they discarded old backup data so when checking the data for a patient several years ago, it's only possible to find that of the latest owner of ID# 12345.