Playstation 5 root keys obtained(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Playstation 5 root keys obtained
https://twitter.com/fail0verflow/status/1457526453105569793
354 comments
I believe consoles are indeed cheaper because
1. they can be sold at a loss (whether or not they actually are now, they have been historically) as the manufacturers make that back on games
2. they bulk order components and package/market them as a single piece.
I much prefer gaming on consoles because I can't be bothered with all the mental overhead that comes with PC gaming. Like most of us I don't have much time. I turn the console on and I'm instantly playing a version optimised for this hardware. More than happy, even eager, to pay for a version that doesn't have me forever tweaking graphical settings or have me thinking about what the latest advancements in RAM or whatever is.
I'm actually looking forward to Steam Deck as ideally it'll give a much closer to console experience for some PC games I've missed out on.
Edit: I was reminded by another comment that the couch experience of desktop gaming isn't for me either. If I can't operate the whole thing from a gamepad I'm not interested, and last time I gave this a go with a little Lenovo I used for emulation, this still wasn't possible.
I much prefer gaming on consoles because I can't be bothered with all the mental overhead that comes with PC gaming. Like most of us I don't have much time. I turn the console on and I'm instantly playing a version optimised for this hardware. More than happy, even eager, to pay for a version that doesn't have me forever tweaking graphical settings or have me thinking about what the latest advancements in RAM or whatever is.
I'm actually looking forward to Steam Deck as ideally it'll give a much closer to console experience for some PC games I've missed out on.
Edit: I was reminded by another comment that the couch experience of desktop gaming isn't for me either. If I can't operate the whole thing from a gamepad I'm not interested, and last time I gave this a go with a little Lenovo I used for emulation, this still wasn't possible.
Another pretty big advantage of a console platform which isn't jailbroken (yet?) is far less cheating. Sure, you still got all your in-game exploits (some games don't have many, other games are riddled with game-breaking exploits), but you have to invest in a hardware cheat to get an aimbot or whatever on a console (one might argue that, depending on the game, you already get an aimbot out of the box anyway). Cheating in online PC games has become such a large problem that I'm wondering how much more the market will take.
Honestly, I've always considered this to be the one really strong argument in favor of locked-down hardware.
It's something I struggle with a bit, because locked-down hardware is evil in every other respect. But it's clearly advantageous for online gaming.
It's something I struggle with a bit, because locked-down hardware is evil in every other respect. But it's clearly advantageous for online gaming.
Many moons ago I quit gaming on PC and sold my gaming rig, and went back to consoles.
I remember the day. I was playing Battlefield 3 I believe. I kept getting sniped across the map with headshots. Went to search and typed in 'BF3 cheats' and the very first hit was a youtube video with a working aimbot link in the description.
That being said, every time my PS4 would update and the only patch notes were 'security updates', the only thing that actually changed were their ads on the home screen.
Then they began removing functionality.
Then the weekly OS updates, with notes never saying more than 'security'
Nowhere to go that hasn't been shit upon by either the player base, or the evil manufacturers.
I used to love online gaming, have made some lifelong friends from it. But I'm over it and these days I look for single pmayer games with enough content to be worth the purchase without ebdless DLC.
I remember the day. I was playing Battlefield 3 I believe. I kept getting sniped across the map with headshots. Went to search and typed in 'BF3 cheats' and the very first hit was a youtube video with a working aimbot link in the description.
That being said, every time my PS4 would update and the only patch notes were 'security updates', the only thing that actually changed were their ads on the home screen.
Then they began removing functionality.
Then the weekly OS updates, with notes never saying more than 'security'
Nowhere to go that hasn't been shit upon by either the player base, or the evil manufacturers.
I used to love online gaming, have made some lifelong friends from it. But I'm over it and these days I look for single pmayer games with enough content to be worth the purchase without ebdless DLC.
Not just cheating, but it prevents players from having an advantage from having a better/more expensive setup - I personally love having standardized hardware in competitive online gaming.
There is still the difference between having a gamepad or keyboard connected.
Looks like what you're describing is at least partially implemented in Steam Big Picture mode.
> Big Picture is a mode of Steam designed for use with your TV and game controller, so you can enjoy your Steam games from the comfort of your couch. With the press of a button, Steam displays a full-screen user interface which has been completely redesigned for readability and interaction on TV. It can also be used on your usual computer display.
It wont solve the hardware/ram/compatibility problems, but in my experience there are not many of those on the latest Ubuntu. If it works, it works well, and if it doesn't it doesn't at all. And mostly it does.
> Big Picture is a mode of Steam designed for use with your TV and game controller, so you can enjoy your Steam games from the comfort of your couch. With the press of a button, Steam displays a full-screen user interface which has been completely redesigned for readability and interaction on TV. It can also be used on your usual computer display.
It wont solve the hardware/ram/compatibility problems, but in my experience there are not many of those on the latest Ubuntu. If it works, it works well, and if it doesn't it doesn't at all. And mostly it does.
Yup, you can also set up Steam to launch Big Picture mode at Windows boot, if you wanted to use the computer exclusively for gaming, and in addition, it's currently the best way to use a game controller on Windows, since when running in Big Picture it takes over all game controllers with its own input wrapper, which makes nearly any game controller work in a unified way with completely configurable controls. This is quite a big problem on Windows where a lot of controllers won't work without fiddly and often suspicious 3rd party driver packages and programs.
Additionally, Big Picture mode lets you remap controller buttons to basically anything you like (other buttons, keyboard keys, entire sequences of actions, mode shifting, overlay menus, different actions depending on if you press/double press/hold, etc). And, you can browse controller configurations that other people have made, too. Often there are lots of solutions for games that don't officially support controllers, and even in those that do, often there are improved mappings with added features like gyro aiming, or using a combination of gamepad and mouse input (all on the controller of course) to improve in game aiming.
Additionally, Big Picture mode lets you remap controller buttons to basically anything you like (other buttons, keyboard keys, entire sequences of actions, mode shifting, overlay menus, different actions depending on if you press/double press/hold, etc). And, you can browse controller configurations that other people have made, too. Often there are lots of solutions for games that don't officially support controllers, and even in those that do, often there are improved mappings with added features like gyro aiming, or using a combination of gamepad and mouse input (all on the controller of course) to improve in game aiming.
Surely you still have to enter your Windows password with a keyboard?
Big Picture includes an on-screen keyboard overlay that you can toggle with a shortcut (by default it's the controller "home" button and "select", iirc).
The first time you try to unlock the PC this way, Steam will prompt for elevated permissions to be able to do so.
You can of course also set up the user to be automatically logged in.
In my experience it's best to have Steam launch via the Task Scheduler with elevated permissions so that you can approve UAC requests, etc.
However, yes it's worth having a keyboard connected (even if it's just one of those tiny wireless touchpad+keyboard combos) in case things go wrong.
The first time you try to unlock the PC this way, Steam will prompt for elevated permissions to be able to do so.
You can of course also set up the user to be automatically logged in.
In my experience it's best to have Steam launch via the Task Scheduler with elevated permissions so that you can approve UAC requests, etc.
However, yes it's worth having a keyboard connected (even if it's just one of those tiny wireless touchpad+keyboard combos) in case things go wrong.
Microsoft used to sell a keyboard attachment that would go on the bottom of an xbox controller. I dunno why they stopped selling them, they work great for things like this.
If this really mattered, you could use a Logitech Brio to sign you in with Windows Hello
It’s a gaming PC, why do you use a password? Is someone going to break into your house and steal your PC on to be thwarted by your password?
I've encountered some games where the default controller was downright broken and horrible.
I'd expect the game developer to provide an good default controller layout of the box, as that's what I'd expect from a console game.
I'd expect the game developer to provide an good default controller layout of the box, as that's what I'd expect from a console game.
There's also the [Steam Link app][1], if you have an Android TV.
[1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.valvesoftw...
You just need to install the app on your Android TV/TV box, and if you've got a fast intranet connection, you can stream Steam games from your desktop/laptop PC via your Android TV (it also works on Android tablets/phones, but you'd probably need a high-end WiFi router).
The input latency might hurt for action games, especially since TVs tend to have pretty bad latency already compared to computer monitors. And, loads of Android TVs aren't very powerful; I've seen quite a few struggle with even the Netflix app, so I doubt streaming 4K 60FPS games with low latency will work well.
[1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.valvesoftw...
You just need to install the app on your Android TV/TV box, and if you've got a fast intranet connection, you can stream Steam games from your desktop/laptop PC via your Android TV (it also works on Android tablets/phones, but you'd probably need a high-end WiFi router).
The input latency might hurt for action games, especially since TVs tend to have pretty bad latency already compared to computer monitors. And, loads of Android TVs aren't very powerful; I've seen quite a few struggle with even the Netflix app, so I doubt streaming 4K 60FPS games with low latency will work well.
Can you use a keyboard and a mouse with a console yet?
Yes, not every game will let you use one without an adapter to mimic being a controller but some do. For example Fortnite on Switch will let you use a mouse and keyboard.
There are several games that support keyboard and mouse on Xbox
Here's the most complete list I found while researching the subject a few months ago:
https://xboxkbm.herokuapp.com/
https://xboxkbm.herokuapp.com/
For text entry, sure. For all games, not really - some game manufacturers would like competition to stay 'fair' and stick to controllers.
> with all the mental overhead that comes with PC gaming
On a modern system you buy in the next electronic store that is ready to use the mental load is the same as using any Sony OS.
The advantage I see in consoles is that they are more multiplayer friendly. It is mostly more comfortable to share a large couch, but PC maintenance is as easy as it is on console. You cannot play instantly. I use a console 3 times a month when friends come around to play. I often have to wait for a fairly long update of OS and games. Can happen on PC too, but with modern boot times, there really isn't much difference anymore aside from input/output.
On a modern system you buy in the next electronic store that is ready to use the mental load is the same as using any Sony OS.
The advantage I see in consoles is that they are more multiplayer friendly. It is mostly more comfortable to share a large couch, but PC maintenance is as easy as it is on console. You cannot play instantly. I use a console 3 times a month when friends come around to play. I often have to wait for a fairly long update of OS and games. Can happen on PC too, but with modern boot times, there really isn't much difference anymore aside from input/output.
> On a modern system you buy in the next electronic store that is ready to use the mental load is the same as using any Sony OS.
It's really really not. Ever had the scenario where anticheat for a game has failed to install because of a pending windows update?
> I use a console 3 times a month when friends come around to play. I often have to wait for a fairly long update of OS and games.
Both xbox and playstation have supported background updates for the last couple of years, both for the OS and for games.
It's really really not. Ever had the scenario where anticheat for a game has failed to install because of a pending windows update?
> I use a console 3 times a month when friends come around to play. I often have to wait for a fairly long update of OS and games.
Both xbox and playstation have supported background updates for the last couple of years, both for the OS and for games.
Between background updates and instant resumes this just isn't true. Unless you're saying I can press a power button on the PC and I'm instantly exactly where I left off on the last game I played?
This is one of the best selling points to me.
Most console games are designed to be played like this. I can just leave the game and come back tomorrow.
For PC games I have to open it, make sure it's saved, close it. And so on.
Sitting in the couch and being in the game in 15 secs Max is amazing
Most console games are designed to be played like this. I can just leave the game and come back tomorrow.
For PC games I have to open it, make sure it's saved, close it. And so on.
Sitting in the couch and being in the game in 15 secs Max is amazing
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I'm pretty sure you can tell steam to boot at startup and boot in bigpicture mode. That works for couch gaming. As for graphic settings is as easy as "do not di anything" (stuff is autoconfigured nowdays), or "set it to ultra then lower by one until it stops being bad for you", in case your pc is outdated.
With a console you don't have that option, you would need to buy a new one, so that's not comparable.
With a console you don't have that option, you would need to buy a new one, so that's not comparable.
For some value of “works”. Mostly theoretical. Been there, done that for a few years, bought PS4 out of sheer frustration.
It’s a death by thousand cuts: problems in some games, occasional popups from whatever that can’t be dismissed without a mouse, Windows updates etc. had to have a keyboard and mouse nearby. Every time I started the machine after not playing for a few days, I ended up dealing with such things for the 30 minutes I had for gaming…
It’s a death by thousand cuts: problems in some games, occasional popups from whatever that can’t be dismissed without a mouse, Windows updates etc. had to have a keyboard and mouse nearby. Every time I started the machine after not playing for a few days, I ended up dealing with such things for the 30 minutes I had for gaming…
Sony's exclusive games are the best IMO. You can't play those on PC (unless they do a PC-port many years later).
You can actually, with Playstation Now or whatever Sony's streaming service is called.
That service does not get said exclusives until many years later, if ever.
And I usually want to play them on the release date!
I agree with a sentiment.
The only pro I can see at the moment for any console is the ability to place it in the living room for the family to share a casual gaming / entertainment experience.
I do have a PC and, while not a "gamer", I enjoy hitting back on the old classics (Age of Empires 2 DE) from time to time.
But that is a personal gaming experience, not to be shared with others in my home.
The only pro I can see at the moment for any console is the ability to place it in the living room for the family to share a casual gaming / entertainment experience.
I do have a PC and, while not a "gamer", I enjoy hitting back on the old classics (Age of Empires 2 DE) from time to time.
But that is a personal gaming experience, not to be shared with others in my home.
Cost is also a valid factor. You're not going to get an affordable PC with comparable specs that run 4k games. At some point your PC might break even, but in the here and the now, a console makes sense. I'd only recommend a PC if you needed a decent graphics card for some other reason, like video editing.
Another factor is you're far less likely to encounter modders. First thing I do is disable PC crossplay, if the game lets me.
Another factor is you're far less likely to encounter modders. First thing I do is disable PC crossplay, if the game lets me.
I already spend all day sat at my desk.
I was a “PC gamer” for years, but consoles are better for plug and play group/sofa gaming.
I was a “PC gamer” for years, but consoles are better for plug and play group/sofa gaming.
Nothing is stopping you from connecting a PC to your TV to play games on your sofa.
You’ve missed the point.
I don’t want to setup and configure yet another computer.
I don’t want to setup and configure yet another computer.
There is not a whole lot of configuring to do. Just buy a prebuilt and install Steam and you are done. After that you install the games in steam, launch them from steam, buy them from steam etc. Basically the same experience as the dashboard on playstation or xbox.
You’re not going to convince me otherwise dude. :)
I have consoles and a powerful gaming PC. I use both regularly. For me they’re good for different things.
My Nintendo Switches get the most use.
I have consoles and a powerful gaming PC. I use both regularly. For me they’re good for different things.
My Nintendo Switches get the most use.
> Just buy a prebuilt and install Steam and you are done.
Once you buy a prebuilt machine you're losing a good chunk of the savings that people talk about when buying a PC. You also don't just install steam, you have to install drivers, and maintain an OS (which doesn't have a controller friendly input method) so you need a keyboard and mouse around for windows update time or driver update time.
Once you buy a prebuilt machine you're losing a good chunk of the savings that people talk about when buying a PC. You also don't just install steam, you have to install drivers, and maintain an OS (which doesn't have a controller friendly input method) so you need a keyboard and mouse around for windows update time or driver update time.
>After that you install the games in steam, launch them from steam, buy them from steam etc.
You mean you buy them from Steam, you launch a third-party launcher from Steam and launch your game through that launcher. I know that at least EA and Rockstar force you to use their launcher even if you buy on Steam and Microsoft also requires you to have Xbox stuff (at least for Forza Horizon).
You mean you buy them from Steam, you launch a third-party launcher from Steam and launch your game through that launcher. I know that at least EA and Rockstar force you to use their launcher even if you buy on Steam and Microsoft also requires you to have Xbox stuff (at least for Forza Horizon).
yeah, I use my laptop as a mobile "console" with ps4 controllers. It's sometimes a PITA to find good games that with controller support and splitscreen, but they do exist
> It's sometimes a PITA to find good games that with controller support and splitscreen
You’ve just demonstrated one of the reasons people get consoles.
You’ve just demonstrated one of the reasons people get consoles.
I know, what's wrong with that?
How many games on console support splitscreen though?
And you can always run this the other way around: All modern games that run on console and PC support controllers on PC. It's games that are very old that sometimes need a manual intervention. BUT consoles can't even play those games at all, so they basically have no controller support too, just with zero recourse.
And you can always run this the other way around: All modern games that run on console and PC support controllers on PC. It's games that are very old that sometimes need a manual intervention. BUT consoles can't even play those games at all, so they basically have no controller support too, just with zero recourse.
Attempted it several times, to run Plex etc. Remote control never works well. Having to keep a mouse & keyboard near the TV is a hassle.
I'm sure it's perfectly possible but some people don't want another thing to configure and troubleshoot if that's their day job.
I'm sure it's perfectly possible but some people don't want another thing to configure and troubleshoot if that's their day job.
I don't think it's easy to communicate the "Just Works(tm)" aspect of it. Any amount of messing around for any reason is too much. No matter how hard I've seen anyone try, they cannot match the console in that aspect. Pick up the controller, press a button, and off you go.
You might get your PC setup to do almost that, but it will require tinkering with keyboard and mouse to update OS and install games. It's not what I want when I get home. The console occasionally have issues too, but far far less often than PC in my experience.
You might get your PC setup to do almost that, but it will require tinkering with keyboard and mouse to update OS and install games. It's not what I want when I get home. The console occasionally have issues too, but far far less often than PC in my experience.
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> Pick up the controller, press a button, and off you go.
100% this.
It gets even better when you realise that modern consoles support sleep too. You can go from "off" to "exactly where you were last night" in a matter of seconds.
100% this.
It gets even better when you realise that modern consoles support sleep too. You can go from "off" to "exactly where you were last night" in a matter of seconds.
Steam with a controller on your TV just isn't nearly as nice. I set it all up once (PITA on its own there) a few months ago after the steamdeck hype to show my wife some of the other games available in the world. It was kludgy at best and buggy at worst with some games.
I say this as a primarily 95% 3+ decade PC gamer. The other 5% goes to Nintendo exclusives such as Zelda or Mario.
I say this as a primarily 95% 3+ decade PC gamer. The other 5% goes to Nintendo exclusives such as Zelda or Mario.
Convenience and cost for me. You get significantly better hardware for your money than a PC for the same price, while it is guaranteed that all games you can buy will run as the developer intended it. Just turn it on and play.
Not sure how true this is, but I've heard that Sony's PlayStation division is taking a hard hit from scalping, since they sell the consoles at a loss and scalpers don't buy games. So I wonder if this trend of selling consoles at a loss will continue in future generations.
Don't the people that they resell the console onto buy games though? Possibly missing something here
It'll shake out. I'm sure that is weighted to return more later in the generation anyway.
This doesn't make sense. Unless the scalpers are hoarding consoles or using them for a purpose other than games (space heater? overpriced Netflix machine?), the consoles will get in the hands of a game buyer.
Well, paying more for the console may mean less money for games, or having wait may mean deciding on a different system or not having enough money may have the opposite effect of selling at a loss.
I've been trying to pick up a PS5 for a friend since they came out and it's been futile. I keep a watch on our local eBay and noticed there's one person who sometimes buys out all the available stock from the big electronics store, then puts them up for the MSRP. In the description they write something to the effect of "I am not making any money off of these - I just want to help people get a console for the price they normally sell for before all the scalpers buy them and mark the price up". I have no idea how they plan to prevent scalpers from buying those and charging 20% more... and also I wonder how the warranty will work since they obviously can't give you the original receipt.
Someone who pays $800 will probably buy fewer games with the console than someone who pays MSRP, so it would take longer to make back their loss.
> it is guaranteed that all games you can buy will run as the developer intended it.
Exactly. It just works and saves time. Just buy the game, plug it in and play it. Simple.
No 'swap this GPU inside step', 'installing additional drivers step' or 'incompatible hardware errors', or 'run it in 32 bit mode' etc.
Exactly. It just works and saves time. Just buy the game, plug it in and play it. Simple.
No 'swap this GPU inside step', 'installing additional drivers step' or 'incompatible hardware errors', or 'run it in 32 bit mode' etc.
- Cheaper than a gaming PC. Of course it depends on your setup but for the same price ($500 MSRP) it would be hard to build a decent rig that plays the current gen new games perfectly
- It just works. Games can have bugs but no hassle with installation, drivers etc. Games are more or less better optimzed because all the devs are working on the same hardware. No 100s different CPU and GPU. And one operating system
- Exclusives. Studios are moving away from it to some extent but some games can still be only played on consoles
- Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
That being said I have a gaming PC and consoles too mostly becasue of the exclusives
- It just works. Games can have bugs but no hassle with installation, drivers etc. Games are more or less better optimzed because all the devs are working on the same hardware. No 100s different CPU and GPU. And one operating system
- Exclusives. Studios are moving away from it to some extent but some games can still be only played on consoles
- Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
That being said I have a gaming PC and consoles too mostly becasue of the exclusives
> Cheaper than a gaming PC
They're subsidised by the game prices. You still pay for it in the end.
> Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
You can use a PC in the same way. If you position it well, you can even have a dual purpose work/entertainment PC.
They're subsidised by the game prices. You still pay for it in the end.
> Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
You can use a PC in the same way. If you position it well, you can even have a dual purpose work/entertainment PC.
> They're subsidised by the game prices. You still pay for it in the end.
How much is a half-decent game PC ? €2000 ? Compare to a €500 console. For €1500 I can buy a lot of 'overpriced' games.
How much is a half-decent game PC ? €2000 ? Compare to a €500 console. For €1500 I can buy a lot of 'overpriced' games.
A half decent PC is in the 800€ to 1000€ range. If you're willing to take some graphical downgrades you can do it for 600-800€ too.
How many games can you buy for 500€ max? About 10 or so. Maybe.
How many games can you buy for 500€ max? About 10 or so. Maybe.
You're comparing full price console games to free PC games. There are numerous games on consoles that cost less than €50, and buying the latest AAA releases on PC will cost you more than €50 too
How many free Console games are there? Much less than PC.
It's entirely fair as there is more possibility of free PC games, or them being of negligible cost since you pay lower platform fees.
This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
It's entirely fair as there is more possibility of free PC games, or them being of negligible cost since you pay lower platform fees.
This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
In absolute numbers there are more free games on PC (see itch.io) yes but that kind of doesn't matter. If your game choices are purely driven by cost then a second hand laptop with f2p games is going to be the cheapest approach. If you exclusively want to play f2p games, then a cheap PC or a cheap console doesn't really matter. Buy if you're going to be buying a handful of new releases a year, the difference is more like €10 per game rather than €50
> since you pay lower platform fees
The platform fees (not required by the way) are roughly the cost of one game per year, if not cheaper. Gamepass being a very different discussion (and is available on PC too)
> This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
I don't know about you but I don't want my work PC to be where I relax in the evenings, and many people don't want their employers software or information on their personal devices. I also live in a country where I don't have to fill in my own taxes, and almost all of my personal computing needs are met by my phone.
> since you pay lower platform fees
The platform fees (not required by the way) are roughly the cost of one game per year, if not cheaper. Gamepass being a very different discussion (and is available on PC too)
> This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
I don't know about you but I don't want my work PC to be where I relax in the evenings, and many people don't want their employers software or information on their personal devices. I also live in a country where I don't have to fill in my own taxes, and almost all of my personal computing needs are met by my phone.
I didn't say you'd have to buy a workplace PC with gaming capabilities, there is plenty of opportunities for a PC to be productive outside work and gaming (such as commenting on HN).
I can do all of those things on my phone (and I do!)
Not all things are quite possible on a phone or as comfortable as you could do them on a PC (I couldn't imagine coding on a phone).
And things aren't always as comfortable on PC as they are on a console. I would much rather the streamlined experience and guaranteed compatibility of a console for playing games, in the same way you would rather a PC for coding over a phone.
>This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
Work related stuf I do on my work-provided MacBook Pro, that costs me €0. For browsing the web, e-mail and taxes I just use my iPad.
Work related stuf I do on my work-provided MacBook Pro, that costs me €0. For browsing the web, e-mail and taxes I just use my iPad.
An iPad costs non significant amounts of money and not everyone is privileged enough to get a MacBook Pro for personal work from their employer.
> An iPad costs non significant amounts of money
Less than a PC
Less than a PC
If you want to play the kind of games you'd play on a console in a similar quality, your figures will only pay for the GPU, and that just barely. The prices are completely insane right now, PC gaming is not very affordable today.
And PC games also cost money, at least if we're talking about similar types of games as on the consoles.
And PC games also cost money, at least if we're talking about similar types of games as on the consoles.
You can definitely get a GPU for affordable prices if you're willing to wait. The insane prices apply if you want a GPU now.
Also keep in mind that consoles are subject to the very same price increase, it's nearly impossible to obtain a console for the advertised price.
Also keep in mind that consoles are subject to the very same price increase, it's nearly impossible to obtain a console for the advertised price.
I got a PS5 months ago for the regular price (400 EUR for the digital-only version), and I didn't put that much effort into getting it. A 3060 would be at least 700 EUR right now.
And the GPU prices have been rather expensive, if not as outright insane as right now for years. So PC gaming in general has become less attractive from a financial point while console prices are pretty much the same (though with some difficulty in getting them, for sure).
And the GPU prices have been rather expensive, if not as outright insane as right now for years. So PC gaming in general has become less attractive from a financial point while console prices are pretty much the same (though with some difficulty in getting them, for sure).
You don't need a 3060, you can simply get a GPU from a few generations back. You can get a Vega 56 for about 300€ which will play most games in high quality settings without any issues.
Same for all other components, it's no longer true that you need current-gen technology to be able to play with Graphics put on High.
Same for all other components, it's no longer true that you need current-gen technology to be able to play with Graphics put on High.
That's still 3/4 of the price of a new console for a used 4 year old GPU. And you still won't be able to match the graphics quality of a PS5 in new games.
> And you still won't be able to match the graphics quality of a PS5 in new games.
And the PS5 won't be able to match the PCs capability of doing productive things when not gaming.
And the PS5 won't be able to match the PCs capability of doing productive things when not gaming.
> You can get a Vega 56 for about 300€
No, not really.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vega+56&_saca...
No, not really.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vega+56&_saca...
2 yrs ago i would've said 800€.
currently it would be 1.5k+€, but thats because of the silicon shortage and scalpers. and fwiw, a ps5 was going for 1.4k just a few month ago too.
currently it would be 1.5k+€, but thats because of the silicon shortage and scalpers. and fwiw, a ps5 was going for 1.4k just a few month ago too.
The real question is “how much is an equivalent game PC” because consoles do not perform anywhere near the level of half-decent game PCs.
"it's complicated" - links below. Right now the GPU market is screwed so you would spend more on the equivalent GPU than the entire rest of the hardware, but a $400 GPU (3060Ti) theoretically, plus the rest of the components, (CPU, motherboard, ram) peripherals (you get a £50 gamepad free with your console), software licenses (a legit windows license is not free)
[0] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2021-call-...
[1] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-assas...
[0] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2021-call-...
[1] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-assas...
Depends what matters to you. Do you care a lot for graphics? I can run nearly every game I care about on a laptop, since I care about gameplay like older emulator, indie games such as into the breach don't need good graphics, AoE II and SC are way more fun than ray traced shooters to me. For a cheap PC a 3400G APU can play GTA5 pretty well, and emulate PS3 games, nothing high spec just a CPU+GPU combo chip for $150 that will play older games, not lock games by console, and run PC software. Lots of great free games on PC like cave story exist too, not to mention the granular settings to games that don't exist on console, free mods to make games like Skyrim keep it modern, the existance of mods for games like Fallout or GTA5 make console games less full featured and unappealing unless you want to be locked to whatever they think is best for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0p5fbW5odY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxPtHuyPJo
If you want the latest AAA games, consoles are cheaper unfront costs, more expensive in the long run, and you have less freedom to run cool stuff on the games.
> I can run nearly every game I care about on a laptop, since I care about gameplay like older emulator, indie games such as into the breach don't need good graphics,
If that's what you care about then buying a modern console is a terrible idea, however you can buy a "retro" console (xbox 360) with dozens of games ver practically nothing (The first match on gumtree near me was a 360, 2 controllers and 35 games for £60)
If that's what you care about then buying a modern console is a terrible idea, however you can buy a "retro" console (xbox 360) with dozens of games ver practically nothing (The first match on gumtree near me was a 360, 2 controllers and 35 games for £60)
But my PC can run PC native games, console emulators and upscale the graphics to make them look better on top of running programs. A 360 is limited to 720p, slow discs, proprietary slow HDD, and RRoD (I killed 2 360s when I had them due to the poor quality heatsink).
On PC they even have BotW DLC. https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/03/introducing_second... there’s no comparison for functionality.
The new Xbox can emulate (very poorly, less than a weaker computer can, but it’ll get better) too, it’s why the xbone with dev mode for homebrew was never hacked. https://www.ggrecon.com/articles/emulate-playstation-2-xbox-...
If I had to buy a console, form factor is the most important, I love my PSP. Could play NES, some SNES and very slow N64, perfect compatibility PS1 emulator, GB+GBC,GBA and of course PSP games. The homebrew on it for apps was amazing too with music players, ebook readers, cheats for every game, ability to change clock for battery life or performance, really a game changing device.
On PC they even have BotW DLC. https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/03/introducing_second... there’s no comparison for functionality.
The new Xbox can emulate (very poorly, less than a weaker computer can, but it’ll get better) too, it’s why the xbone with dev mode for homebrew was never hacked. https://www.ggrecon.com/articles/emulate-playstation-2-xbox-...
If I had to buy a console, form factor is the most important, I love my PSP. Could play NES, some SNES and very slow N64, perfect compatibility PS1 emulator, GB+GBC,GBA and of course PSP games. The homebrew on it for apps was amazing too with music players, ebook readers, cheats for every game, ability to change clock for battery life or performance, really a game changing device.
>You still pay for it in the end.
Only if you buy new games at launch.
Consoles still have physical media, so from few days to few weeks you can grab games at a large discount.
Only if you buy new games at launch.
Consoles still have physical media, so from few days to few weeks you can grab games at a large discount.
It's true over the whole population - it's known that the hardware is discounted. You can play the price game of course, just like you can buy discounted steam keys or wait for sales, but on average people don't seem to do that.
The hardware is discounted at launch. For the PS4 and PS5 the consoles have sold at a loss for less than a year.
The cost of new releases on steam or the epic store is very close to the cost of a new release on console, so if you are jumping on new releases straight away the savings are very very slim
The cost of new releases on steam or the epic store is very close to the cost of a new release on console, so if you are jumping on new releases straight away the savings are very very slim
You really don't pay more for games or certainly don't have to. Farcry 6 is $60 on PS5 and it's $60 on PC, same with Forza Horizons 5 and as far as I'm aware pretty much every new release. PSN and Xbox Live run similar sales to Steam and often the same games go on sale for the same price at the same time. Plus sometimes there is very good deals at retail or on the used market that just have not existed as an option for PC gamers for like 15 years.
It is also a huge kinda expensive PITA to setup a PC to handle Blu-rays and do Netflix and YouTube as well as a console. UHD drives are not cheap and you need paid software like PowerDVD to actually watch the disc. Getting a good remote interface is tough and when swapping between games, blurays and Netflix/YouTube and games requires entering mouse land. On console its all designed to be used from the couch and works well that way and you can easily get a compatible remote for $20-30 if your TV's doesn't work over HDMI CEC.
It is also a huge kinda expensive PITA to setup a PC to handle Blu-rays and do Netflix and YouTube as well as a console. UHD drives are not cheap and you need paid software like PowerDVD to actually watch the disc. Getting a good remote interface is tough and when swapping between games, blurays and Netflix/YouTube and games requires entering mouse land. On console its all designed to be used from the couch and works well that way and you can easily get a compatible remote for $20-30 if your TV's doesn't work over HDMI CEC.
> You really don't pay more for games or certainly don't have to. Farcry 6 is $60 on PS5 and it's $60 on PC,
But subsidizing doesn't necessarily mean unequal pricing. It does not follow from equal pricing that a part of the $60 for a PS5 game didn't go into subsidizing the platform. For example, for all we know, a comparable amount of money for the PC game could have gone into extra development and QA effort necessary to support the more varied PC ecosystem so in the end the prices could be the same anyway, even without the game vendor willing to give up some profits for one or the other.
But subsidizing doesn't necessarily mean unequal pricing. It does not follow from equal pricing that a part of the $60 for a PS5 game didn't go into subsidizing the platform. For example, for all we know, a comparable amount of money for the PC game could have gone into extra development and QA effort necessary to support the more varied PC ecosystem so in the end the prices could be the same anyway, even without the game vendor willing to give up some profits for one or the other.
> They're subsidised by the game prices. You still pay for it in the end.
Initial game prices can be higher, but you can sell the games. Here in Australia it's common for new games to be $100 on console and $80-90 on PC. A month after release I can still sell a console game for $80, and often do, since I prefer single-player adventure/RPG type games which I will take 5+ years to replay if I ever do. That effectively means that games cost me $20 to play on a console or $80-90 to play on a PC. I prefer playing on PC for all the other reasons but it's really hard to justify the extra cost now that used PC games are no longer a thing.
Initial game prices can be higher, but you can sell the games. Here in Australia it's common for new games to be $100 on console and $80-90 on PC. A month after release I can still sell a console game for $80, and often do, since I prefer single-player adventure/RPG type games which I will take 5+ years to replay if I ever do. That effectively means that games cost me $20 to play on a console or $80-90 to play on a PC. I prefer playing on PC for all the other reasons but it's really hard to justify the extra cost now that used PC games are no longer a thing.
> You can use a PC in the same way. If you position it well, you can even have a dual purpose work/entertainment PC.
Not without significantly more work. A console you just plugin to your TV and you're good to go, with a PC you want to use for both work and entertainment you'll need to finagle all sorts of things. One major hurdle I've yet to overcome seamlessly is playing on my TV/Home Theater from a computer in my office. When I game I prefer to get full immersion, but there really aren't any great, easy to use solutions that allow such a setup. I could get a separate computer for the Home Theater purpose, but now again it's easier/cheaper to just get a console.
Not without significantly more work. A console you just plugin to your TV and you're good to go, with a PC you want to use for both work and entertainment you'll need to finagle all sorts of things. One major hurdle I've yet to overcome seamlessly is playing on my TV/Home Theater from a computer in my office. When I game I prefer to get full immersion, but there really aren't any great, easy to use solutions that allow such a setup. I could get a separate computer for the Home Theater purpose, but now again it's easier/cheaper to just get a console.
It's only cheaper if the only thing you're using a PC for is gaming. But most people have other uses for it, so now you need a console + PC.
Might as well buy a better PC to do everything.
Might as well buy a better PC to do everything.
Most people use a laptop (or even tablet) for their everyday needs nowadays, and they likely don't want a heavy and hot gaming laptop for that.
> now you need a console + PC
A lot of people I know use console + Mac.
A lot of people I know use console + Mac.
I did this for about 7 years (although with a Hackintosh, not a Mac). These days I have my Hackintosh, a gaming PC and a console, but that's obviously only a thing that you can do with a good amount of disposable income.
You can get a decent laptop and a PS5 for the price of a mid-range gaming PC. Now you can do all the same things except you can watch a blu-ray while you type up that report and you don't need to exit out of your game to compile that code.
> That being said I have a gaming PC and consoles too mostly becasue of the exclusives
That's one of the reasons I hate consoles on an ideological level. Unless there are technical reason that make porting the game so hard that it's just not worth it, the only reason for "exclusives" to exist is to fuck over consumers.
That's one of the reasons I hate consoles on an ideological level. Unless there are technical reason that make porting the game so hard that it's just not worth it, the only reason for "exclusives" to exist is to fuck over consumers.
No it's not.
Some of those games are funded and developed wouldn't of been made if it wasn't for the fact they wanted to have games to sell the console. They are not fucking you over by not having it on your system, you just feel annoyed that it's not.
It's simply a business decision and marketing tool and because it's valuable you get more and better games than you would of gotten before. If there weren't such exclusives you wouldn't have such incentives and they wouldn't always exist in the first place.
Some of those games are funded and developed wouldn't of been made if it wasn't for the fact they wanted to have games to sell the console. They are not fucking you over by not having it on your system, you just feel annoyed that it's not.
It's simply a business decision and marketing tool and because it's valuable you get more and better games than you would of gotten before. If there weren't such exclusives you wouldn't have such incentives and they wouldn't always exist in the first place.
Exclusives aren't unique to consoles. Plenty of games are PC only, and therefore fuck over consumers who do not have a PC. More precisely, they're also Windows only, fucking over consumers who are on Linux or Mac.
At the end of the day, very few games on available on everything, and they shouldn't be required to be.
At the end of the day, very few games on available on everything, and they shouldn't be required to be.
As for how it manages to be cheaper, there's two factors
- At the beginning of the release cycle consoles are often sold at a loss, the money is made back from game sales (a $60 PC game costs $70 on console)
- It's much easier to optimize for the known hardware configuration of a console than for "all PCs". Console hardware isn't high-end, the heavy lifting is done by heavy optimization of the games for the specific hardware
- At the beginning of the release cycle consoles are often sold at a loss, the money is made back from game sales (a $60 PC game costs $70 on console)
- It's much easier to optimize for the known hardware configuration of a console than for "all PCs". Console hardware isn't high-end, the heavy lifting is done by heavy optimization of the games for the specific hardware
That and consoles are basically monster DSPs, benefiting from high-throughput buses and parallel processing in a way that general purpose computers do not. Architecting from the ground up with this in mind means you can build something with cheaper silicon that performs much better for video games
> It's much easier to optimize for the known hardware configuration of a console than for "all PCs".
Sometimes with significant quality downgrades, I remember texture quality of early Skyrim being abyssal because the whole game was console optimized. On the other hand there is cyberpunk which apparently didn't even reliably run on some of the consoles it was released on, no idea if it was because of released date agreements or if it was just a shitty money grab.
As far as I understand the great upside of consoles in the past was that the manufacturers strictly vetted the quality of games you could release for them. There have been a few "scandals" where they obviously rescinded those controls to get a game out in time for a specific season only to have it crash and burn. Not sure how strict the controls are now, do they still vet the games strictly or is it just an app store with minimal quality checks?
Sometimes with significant quality downgrades, I remember texture quality of early Skyrim being abyssal because the whole game was console optimized. On the other hand there is cyberpunk which apparently didn't even reliably run on some of the consoles it was released on, no idea if it was because of released date agreements or if it was just a shitty money grab.
As far as I understand the great upside of consoles in the past was that the manufacturers strictly vetted the quality of games you could release for them. There have been a few "scandals" where they obviously rescinded those controls to get a game out in time for a specific season only to have it crash and burn. Not sure how strict the controls are now, do they still vet the games strictly or is it just an app store with minimal quality checks?
This list is good but clearly targeted at ps & Xbox. The arguments are a bit different, but even stronger, for 2021's highest selling console (switch)
- even cheaper, and not a case of paying later for $70 games
- exclusives: by far the biggest draw to switch
Interesting enough to spur Valve to launch a portable competitor so it'll be interesting to see how those pros hold up.
- even cheaper, and not a case of paying later for $70 games
- exclusives: by far the biggest draw to switch
Interesting enough to spur Valve to launch a portable competitor so it'll be interesting to see how those pros hold up.
It just works is a huge one. Driver issues and OS versions are such a huge pain even now. Many games require brand new drivers (which very often very very unstable), and the MS store required your windows version to be up to date, and everyone has their story about windows update being stuck for months on end.
That's before you get into the "openness" of PC - if you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
That's before you get into the "openness" of PC - if you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
> you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat?
Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable.
They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
> What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable.
They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
> What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
> Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable.
That only launches the game through the correct store. If the game doesn't implement cross play, you can't play together.
> They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
But you're trying to be in game with the person, and again if the game doesn't do in-game voice chat, you have to find alternatives. On a console you join a party and the software correctly handles the cases around "do I want to put you in a voice chat channel for your game" (because it has to to pass certification).
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
Really helpfully closed after 30 days of inactivity. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42. (I didn't make this bug, but I found it, and just logged onto my xbox instead).
That only launches the game through the correct store. If the game doesn't implement cross play, you can't play together.
> They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
But you're trying to be in game with the person, and again if the game doesn't do in-game voice chat, you have to find alternatives. On a console you join a party and the software correctly handles the cases around "do I want to put you in a voice chat channel for your game" (because it has to to pass certification).
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
Really helpfully closed after 30 days of inactivity. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42. (I didn't make this bug, but I found it, and just logged onto my xbox instead).
PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform.
I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
> PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform.
That is very much game specific. As an example, Deep Rock Galactic doesn't support playing between Steam and the MS store [0]
> I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
All of those options require you to coordinate your play outside of the game and the platform. If you are playing Sea of Thieves on Steam with friends using steam voice chat, and one person joins via the MS store, you need to figure out out how to get them into the correct place. If you're all on xbox, they just join your party.
> Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends?
[0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info
That is very much game specific. As an example, Deep Rock Galactic doesn't support playing between Steam and the MS store [0]
> I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
All of those options require you to coordinate your play outside of the game and the platform. If you are playing Sea of Thieves on Steam with friends using steam voice chat, and one person joins via the MS store, you need to figure out out how to get them into the correct place. If you're all on xbox, they just join your party.
> Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends?
[0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info
> So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends?
I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it.
You can’t eat the cake and have it too. If you’re technically skilled to be using containers and virtualization, least you could do is file a helpful bug report.
I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it.
You can’t eat the cake and have it too. If you’re technically skilled to be using containers and virtualization, least you could do is file a helpful bug report.
So now my kids need a separate PC? I thought the point of this was that my PC could do everything?
"my" "personal" computer, Yes I'd expect your kids to have their own.
And docker misconfiguration causing issues in unrelated services is one another reason why I'd suggest they have their own.
And docker misconfiguration causing issues in unrelated services is one another reason why I'd suggest they have their own.
So now the kids need a PC to game, and the parent needs a second PC to game, and I'm wondering how this is more reasonable than a single dedicated appliance that costs less than half of the two PC setup.
Docker blocking Xbox chat is not a platform issue but a docker issue and OP doesn’t even want to take time to file a proper bug report so yes kids would be better off using a pc or their own.
Same would go for any console, phone etc. You can’t just install stuff with known issues from 3rd parties, not file report with any diagnostics and then blame it on the platform. Would you blame iOS for a badly behaving app that makes it hard for the kids to use the iPad?
Same would go for any console, phone etc. You can’t just install stuff with known issues from 3rd parties, not file report with any diagnostics and then blame it on the platform. Would you blame iOS for a badly behaving app that makes it hard for the kids to use the iPad?
>I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it.
I have nephews who are tinkering with Java and python, and I assume will be hitting docker at some point.
You're being incredibly nitpicky over a reasonable example of why PC is not as plug-and-play as a console. On a console, the game will work. On a PC, there are a lot of factors that may prevent it from working.
The entire "use a PC" premise is that the PC can be useful for gaming as well as for non-gaming uses, and the counter-argument is that those non-gaming uses can easily cause problems for the gaming uses. Docker is not the only example, tools like fiddler or wireshark or ghidra could cause problems. But heaven forbid that a gamer on hackernews be a tech enthusiast, right?
I have nephews who are tinkering with Java and python, and I assume will be hitting docker at some point.
You're being incredibly nitpicky over a reasonable example of why PC is not as plug-and-play as a console. On a console, the game will work. On a PC, there are a lot of factors that may prevent it from working.
The entire "use a PC" premise is that the PC can be useful for gaming as well as for non-gaming uses, and the counter-argument is that those non-gaming uses can easily cause problems for the gaming uses. Docker is not the only example, tools like fiddler or wireshark or ghidra could cause problems. But heaven forbid that a gamer on hackernews be a tech enthusiast, right?
> Docker is not the only example, tools like fiddler or wireshark or ghidra could cause problems. But heaven forbid that a gamer on hackernews be a tech enthusiast, right?
No, heaven forbid they want to tinker then complain but don't want to spend 5 minutes to file a bug report or follow the hacker way of actually figuring the issue out and proposing a fix.
No, heaven forbid they want to tinker then complain but don't want to spend 5 minutes to file a bug report or follow the hacker way of actually figuring the issue out and proposing a fix.
> Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable.
The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that.
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
It's not a hypothetical issue or a bug, it's a common problem for games that use anti-cheat software. Refusing to run when virtualization features are turned on or virtualization software is installed/present is a common tactic they use and if you file a report it'll usually get immediately closed as wontfix, because it's a tradeoff they decide to make. E.g. https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-Yo...
The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that.
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
It's not a hypothetical issue or a bug, it's a common problem for games that use anti-cheat software. Refusing to run when virtualization features are turned on or virtualization software is installed/present is a common tactic they use and if you file a report it'll usually get immediately closed as wontfix, because it's a tradeoff they decide to make. E.g. https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-Yo...
> The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that.
But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals.
I’ve played on Xbox live with my cousins on steam in F1 2020, age of empires, gta 4, halo.
The only friction is initial invites from the specific platform but once we’ve played in the same server, it’s very easy to send in-game invites.
As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. COD4 was absolutely ruined because of it. Virtualization isn’t very widespread but I’m sure they’ll be more accommodative soon as WSL and Android ship by default on Windows.
But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals.
I’ve played on Xbox live with my cousins on steam in F1 2020, age of empires, gta 4, halo.
The only friction is initial invites from the specific platform but once we’ve played in the same server, it’s very easy to send in-game invites.
As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. COD4 was absolutely ruined because of it. Virtualization isn’t very widespread but I’m sure they’ll be more accommodative soon as WSL and Android ship by default on Windows.
> But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals.
No need for hypotheticals, Deep Rock Galactic [0] doesn't support play between the MS store and steam. Minecraft [1] has two versions that say they support cross play, except you can't play between the two (and depending on how you purchase the version you're playing, this is not clear, e.g. [2]). Marvel vs capcom Infinite doesn't supoort play between the MS Store and Steam [3]. You mentioned Age of Empires and F1 2020, but googling for those two seems to suggest that both of those games suffer from the same issue; [4] [5]
> As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games.
I understand the issues, virtualisation was an example of an issue I faced. (and it's actually not even a virtualisation issue, it's a virtual network adapter issue!) In the last few years I've had issues with Graphics drivers that are apparently too old, drivers that are too _new_, crashes when changing audio devices, windows update blocking game installs, anticheat failing to install/update, problems with performance on a very high end PC due to third party software (chrome). They're the issues I've had, and in my group of 8 or so friends that I play with regularly, the above are common, and everyone has their "own" set of issues.
[0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info [1] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft [2] https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ [3] https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infi... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_micr... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossp...
No need for hypotheticals, Deep Rock Galactic [0] doesn't support play between the MS store and steam. Minecraft [1] has two versions that say they support cross play, except you can't play between the two (and depending on how you purchase the version you're playing, this is not clear, e.g. [2]). Marvel vs capcom Infinite doesn't supoort play between the MS Store and Steam [3]. You mentioned Age of Empires and F1 2020, but googling for those two seems to suggest that both of those games suffer from the same issue; [4] [5]
> As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games.
I understand the issues, virtualisation was an example of an issue I faced. (and it's actually not even a virtualisation issue, it's a virtual network adapter issue!) In the last few years I've had issues with Graphics drivers that are apparently too old, drivers that are too _new_, crashes when changing audio devices, windows update blocking game installs, anticheat failing to install/update, problems with performance on a very high end PC due to third party software (chrome). They're the issues I've had, and in my group of 8 or so friends that I play with regularly, the above are common, and everyone has their "own" set of issues.
[0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info [1] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft [2] https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ [3] https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infi... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_micr... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossp...
I'd never heard of Deep rock, looking at data they have 8k players with a 40k peak - how likely is that this constraint is from their developer resource and not a platform limitation?
Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
As for F1 and Age of empires, I play it with my cousins weekly - you're welcome to join us through live or steam (I'm UranicAlloy580 on xbox live). Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago.
Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
As for F1 and Age of empires, I play it with my cousins weekly - you're welcome to join us through live or steam (I'm UranicAlloy580 on xbox live). Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago.
> how likely is that this constraint is from their developer resource and not a platform limitation?
Of course it is, but that doesn't matter to a player who owns the game because microsoft say "Play anywhere" and "Crossplay" on their official marketing materials [0]
> Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
It doesn't really matter _why_, the fact is that it's the reality of being on an open platform that doesn't enforce these criteria. Being on a console you have to play by the rules of the platform which means that a bunch of things "just work", and those rules _mostly_ apply on PC, except when they don't.
> Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago. The AOE2 one, sure. F1 2019 doesn't work between the MS store and Steam still. That doesn't change the fact that these issues exist on PC, and they don't on console.
[0] https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/08/19/preview-deep-rock-gal...
Of course it is, but that doesn't matter to a player who owns the game because microsoft say "Play anywhere" and "Crossplay" on their official marketing materials [0]
> Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
It doesn't really matter _why_, the fact is that it's the reality of being on an open platform that doesn't enforce these criteria. Being on a console you have to play by the rules of the platform which means that a bunch of things "just work", and those rules _mostly_ apply on PC, except when they don't.
> Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago. The AOE2 one, sure. F1 2019 doesn't work between the MS store and Steam still. That doesn't change the fact that these issues exist on PC, and they don't on console.
[0] https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/08/19/preview-deep-rock-gal...
DRM too is also a pain.
The new Alder Lake CPUs apparently breaks a bunch of games, since their DRM thinks that the new Intel efficiency-cores are a second PC trying to play on the same license.
Some games will only work if you upgrade to Windows 11, and all games should work if you find a BIOS option and enable it, but only some CPUs support that BIOS option.
Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz...
And there's also all the other older horror stories of DRM, like the Denuvo DRM adding a huge performance hit on some games. Or not being able to play your offline single-player games at all, since the Denuvo DRM servers have temporarily offline due to a DNS issue.
(Disclaimer, despite all the issues, I do personally prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but I'm biased that I already have a powerful PC for CUDA/C++ programming and development, so I've already spent a bunch of money and time into PCs already).
The new Alder Lake CPUs apparently breaks a bunch of games, since their DRM thinks that the new Intel efficiency-cores are a second PC trying to play on the same license.
Some games will only work if you upgrade to Windows 11, and all games should work if you find a BIOS option and enable it, but only some CPUs support that BIOS option.
Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz...
And there's also all the other older horror stories of DRM, like the Denuvo DRM adding a huge performance hit on some games. Or not being able to play your offline single-player games at all, since the Denuvo DRM servers have temporarily offline due to a DNS issue.
(Disclaimer, despite all the issues, I do personally prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but I'm biased that I already have a powerful PC for CUDA/C++ programming and development, so I've already spent a bunch of money and time into PCs already).
1. Game availability - lots of good games are not available on PC and will never be.
2. Hardware convenience - just a box you put next to your TV that works from the second you take it out of the packaging.
3. Software convenience - no need to deal with a million compatibility issues, buggy drivers, and all the problems that come with Windows and gaming hardware.
2. Hardware convenience - just a box you put next to your TV that works from the second you take it out of the packaging.
3. Software convenience - no need to deal with a million compatibility issues, buggy drivers, and all the problems that come with Windows and gaming hardware.
I disagree with #1. I never had issues finding great games for Windoze.
I did not say you can not find a great game for Windows. I said that some great games will never be available for Windows.
> I said that some great games will never be available for Windows.
And even more great games will never be available for console so that point is invalid.
And even more great games will never be available for console so that point is invalid.
About number 1, most popular games by player numbers are PC exclusives, or not? LoL, Dota, CSGO(?), WoW, many MMOs, every older game that still runs on modern PCs, but not on new consoles.
2 I agree with. I'm hoping Steam Deck might make a big difference.
3 It's also gotten better in general, AND consoles seem to have more bugs than they used to, because things can just be patched now. Think Cyberpunk! Consoles are still better, I just think the difference is way smaller now.
2 I agree with. I'm hoping Steam Deck might make a big difference.
3 It's also gotten better in general, AND consoles seem to have more bugs than they used to, because things can just be patched now. Think Cyberpunk! Consoles are still better, I just think the difference is way smaller now.
Some great games are playstation exclusive, so if you want to play those, you have no other option.
But the main reason for me is the controller: It's just so much better than any other controller I've connected to a PC. The back triggers have excellent force feedback and in some games the vibrations tell you on what type of surface you're walking. This might not count for XBox users, which can use the controller on their PC.
Also, I use a Mac, and I don't want to bother with setting up a gaming only Windows PC. If I factor in time spent, $500 is worth it.
But the main reason for me is the controller: It's just so much better than any other controller I've connected to a PC. The back triggers have excellent force feedback and in some games the vibrations tell you on what type of surface you're walking. This might not count for XBox users, which can use the controller on their PC.
Also, I use a Mac, and I don't want to bother with setting up a gaming only Windows PC. If I factor in time spent, $500 is worth it.
> The back triggers have excellent force feedback and in some games the vibrations tell you on what type of surface you're walking.
I did play Forza Horizon 4 on the PC with a Xbox Series X controller and it worked fine. But had bad experience if I tried to use an PlayStation 4 controller. Which controller did you use?
But for Forza Horizon 5 I do play it on a Xbox Series X and currently prefer it for two reason: 1.) Its just works without any major issues (a friend of mine has on the PC currently constant crashes) 2.) My PC hardware can run the game but not pretty well
One big benefit I see on the Xbox side is that you can play the games on your PC too. And I hope that "exlusives" die as its just annoying.
But in short if you just want to play games a console might be less friction compared to a PC. No need to fiddle with graphics settings and so on.
I did play Forza Horizon 4 on the PC with a Xbox Series X controller and it worked fine. But had bad experience if I tried to use an PlayStation 4 controller. Which controller did you use?
But for Forza Horizon 5 I do play it on a Xbox Series X and currently prefer it for two reason: 1.) Its just works without any major issues (a friend of mine has on the PC currently constant crashes) 2.) My PC hardware can run the game but not pretty well
One big benefit I see on the Xbox side is that you can play the games on your PC too. And I hope that "exlusives" die as its just annoying.
But in short if you just want to play games a console might be less friction compared to a PC. No need to fiddle with graphics settings and so on.
> This might not count for XBox users, which can use the controller on their PC.
I use PS4 controllers with my PC(linux), pretty sure they work with windows too. What controllers cannot be connected to a PC?
I use PS4 controllers with my PC(linux), pretty sure they work with windows too. What controllers cannot be connected to a PC?
No idea about the PS5, but the PS3 controllers couldn't be used on Windows at least. PS4 controllers can be used, they work out of the box (USB only if I remember correctly?) - played lots of Dark Souls 3 with them on my PC.
I've used the PS3 controller on both Linux (out of the box) and Windows. And for the later it was true that I needed to download a separate application, and play a bunch of plug/unplug to get the controller recognized. But once that ritual worked out, I was ready to play.
I used a DS3 and now a DS4 on my Windows PC for years. They work fine once you install a driver (doesn't even have to be third party, Sony released a DS3 Windows driver, but you can only get it by installing Playstation Now).
To be fair, I think PC has probably more exclusive games than consoles by a very large margin. Not necessarily mainstream AAA games, but great ones nonetheless. It really depends on the types of games you play. Whether it is action adventures or games like Factorio, one system might be better suited for you or not.
There is not, and never will be a game that is so good I'll waste my money on getting a console just to play it.
I think historically games consoles were seen as more social, something you would play with someone else in the room.
Also I don’t think the target demographic would care much about it not being a pc (otherwise they would buy a pc). There’s a convenience of having a gaming box already set up, plus Playststion can have exclusive titles
Also I don’t think the target demographic would care much about it not being a pc (otherwise they would buy a pc). There’s a convenience of having a gaming box already set up, plus Playststion can have exclusive titles
I use PCs for gaming because many Playstation titles can also be bought on Steam for a cheaper price. However, I'd be terrified of using my gaming PC for purposes other than gaming because games in general have a poor reputation regarding security and privacy. Many games are outright hostile towards users, with kernel-level DRMs and "privacy policies" and whatnot.
I plop down on my couch, pick up the controller, and it just works.
Whereas on PC I have to go upstairs, usually switch out my work cables and keyboard/mouse, power up the thing, then fire up my game. Definitely less comfortable than the console experience, but on the other hand, there's games that just don't work on consoles (strategy, text-heavy games, etc).
At the moment I play Sekiro on the console and FFXIV on the PC. Both work on the other platform, but both are stronger on the ones I prefer to play them on.
Whereas on PC I have to go upstairs, usually switch out my work cables and keyboard/mouse, power up the thing, then fire up my game. Definitely less comfortable than the console experience, but on the other hand, there's games that just don't work on consoles (strategy, text-heavy games, etc).
At the moment I play Sekiro on the console and FFXIV on the PC. Both work on the other platform, but both are stronger on the ones I prefer to play them on.
That's the possibility and the goal, but it seems that actually fulfilling it is not a very high priority these days:
- I have to unplug and replug my headset (an official Xbox-compatible Astro headset) from my xbox about 33% of the time to get it to recognize my microphone, and this is a common complaint among owners.
- When I try to play Minecraft with a friend, about 50-60% of the time we can't connect, and one or both of us needs to completely restart our console.
- A recent heavily-promoted game, "The Ascent", was actually throwing video memory errors on Xbox consoles for a lot of people:
https://old.reddit.com/r/XboxSeriesXlS/comments/p4losy/the_a...
https://external-preview.redd.it/8wPHr4M1TrBuG8qon6YO2WkrM_V...
- One of Xbox's flagship games, Sea of Thieves, due to creative choices in the world lore, has tied respawn time to your console horsepower. So if you have an Xbox One, you now have to compete against Xbox Series S/X players, or people who have bought an external drive, who respawn much, much faster than you. And the game pushes you strongly towards PVP most of the time. And even if you avoid that, it's still not uncommon to die due to PVE circumstances and "lose" because of the unacceptably long respawn times. So rather than just enjoying the game, you're often cursing your inferior console, or spending time thinking about upgrading its storage just to be competitive.
Newer console games often make you feel pressure to buy the newest console iteration when the older iteration is nearing its end, but Sea of Thieves was released years ago on the Xbox One. Now it's a litany of performance complaints whose answers are just "get a Series X." These days consoles are earlier and earlier becoming advertisements for their newer generations.
- I have to unplug and replug my headset (an official Xbox-compatible Astro headset) from my xbox about 33% of the time to get it to recognize my microphone, and this is a common complaint among owners.
- When I try to play Minecraft with a friend, about 50-60% of the time we can't connect, and one or both of us needs to completely restart our console.
- A recent heavily-promoted game, "The Ascent", was actually throwing video memory errors on Xbox consoles for a lot of people:
https://old.reddit.com/r/XboxSeriesXlS/comments/p4losy/the_a...
https://external-preview.redd.it/8wPHr4M1TrBuG8qon6YO2WkrM_V...
- One of Xbox's flagship games, Sea of Thieves, due to creative choices in the world lore, has tied respawn time to your console horsepower. So if you have an Xbox One, you now have to compete against Xbox Series S/X players, or people who have bought an external drive, who respawn much, much faster than you. And the game pushes you strongly towards PVP most of the time. And even if you avoid that, it's still not uncommon to die due to PVE circumstances and "lose" because of the unacceptably long respawn times. So rather than just enjoying the game, you're often cursing your inferior console, or spending time thinking about upgrading its storage just to be competitive.
Newer console games often make you feel pressure to buy the newest console iteration when the older iteration is nearing its end, but Sea of Thieves was released years ago on the Xbox One. Now it's a litany of performance complaints whose answers are just "get a Series X." These days consoles are earlier and earlier becoming advertisements for their newer generations.
It all depends what one wants.
I for one hate using controller, and consoles don't support M+K (ok, xbox does, but not all games do).
Playing 3d shooter on controller is just like playing it using arrow keys, possible and I was doing that when I played DOOM (the original). Tried it and hated every minute of it because of inprecise shooting.
And strategy games? Moving pointer with controller?
RTS? Is there any on consoles?
And the last but not least, what to do when one doesn't have a TV? Those are not popular nowadays :)
I for one hate using controller, and consoles don't support M+K (ok, xbox does, but not all games do).
Playing 3d shooter on controller is just like playing it using arrow keys, possible and I was doing that when I played DOOM (the original). Tried it and hated every minute of it because of inprecise shooting.
And strategy games? Moving pointer with controller?
RTS? Is there any on consoles?
And the last but not least, what to do when one doesn't have a TV? Those are not popular nowadays :)
Have you tried gyro aim before? It's on par with mouse.
Okay, valid, here's your "play-on-pc" pass. :)
> Playing 3d shooter on controller is just like playing it using arrow keys, possible and I was doing that when I played DOOM (the original). Tried it and hated every minute of it because of inprecise shooting.
That's true, but there'a a similar argument to be made about movement -- controllers use an analog stick for movement (or steering) and at least for me (PlayStation gang) it's always a weird feeling only being able to control my character in a binary way (moving/not moving) by typing letters. It's not as game breaking as not being able to aim properly, but it always feels like I'm doing it the wrong way.
> Playing 3d shooter on controller is just like playing it using arrow keys, possible and I was doing that when I played DOOM (the original). Tried it and hated every minute of it because of inprecise shooting.
That's true, but there'a a similar argument to be made about movement -- controllers use an analog stick for movement (or steering) and at least for me (PlayStation gang) it's always a weird feeling only being able to control my character in a binary way (moving/not moving) by typing letters. It's not as game breaking as not being able to aim properly, but it always feels like I'm doing it the wrong way.
Just out of curiousity, have you tried things like game streaming? I've heard decent things for streaming games via Steam at least.
Isn't this just due to the way you chose to set things up? You could just as easily plug your PC into that same TV so you can sit on your couch and use a controller with it. You could also (I assume? I don't have a current gen console...) plug your console into the monitor and KVM.
Game consoles are appliances. This is either a pro or a con depending on your point of view.
I did the math.
For the price it would've taken me to upgrade my aging gaming PC to be able to play AAA games smoothly would've cost about the same as getting both a PS4 Pro and Xbox One X.
That combined with the fact that I don't need to upgrade the consoles for years made the choice really simple.
I still play a few games on my PC (Valheim, Factorio etc), but I'm hoping the Steam Deck will allow me to retire the old beast completely.
For the price it would've taken me to upgrade my aging gaming PC to be able to play AAA games smoothly would've cost about the same as getting both a PS4 Pro and Xbox One X.
That combined with the fact that I don't need to upgrade the consoles for years made the choice really simple.
I still play a few games on my PC (Valheim, Factorio etc), but I'm hoping the Steam Deck will allow me to retire the old beast completely.
I am primary an iOS developer so I’m not interested in a MacBook + a PC setup
So for gaming i choose an xbox console and for the 70$ Price I subscribed to xbox game pass ultimate (it’s 15$/mo) but I have access to all 1st party games day one with more than 200 games in the backlog which I don’t have time to play them
So for gaming i choose an xbox console and for the 70$ Price I subscribed to xbox game pass ultimate (it’s 15$/mo) but I have access to all 1st party games day one with more than 200 games in the backlog which I don’t have time to play them
Consoles are on their last run in my opinion.
Valve has improved the Steam experience for Steamdeck, along with the Proton compatibility layer. Then they added "Great on Steamdeck" that will encourage devs to aim for better controller support.
Now there are rumours Valve is working on a new "console".
Imho once there is a "console" that is basically Steamdeck with builtin Steam store and a powerful GPU... in otherword a fully capable PC with desktop performance + the console user experience (or almost there) there is strictly no reason to buy a Sony/Nintendo console anymore.... especially since SEGA, Sony & al are porting more and more games to PC.
I think we are all in a better place if those platforms converge, and Sony/Nintendo just focus on making great games. But it doesn't matter anyway, since if Valve can release an actually good "console" experience, with builtin Steam store... Nintendo and Sony have nothing more to offer bar a few exclusives.
Valve has improved the Steam experience for Steamdeck, along with the Proton compatibility layer. Then they added "Great on Steamdeck" that will encourage devs to aim for better controller support.
Now there are rumours Valve is working on a new "console".
Imho once there is a "console" that is basically Steamdeck with builtin Steam store and a powerful GPU... in otherword a fully capable PC with desktop performance + the console user experience (or almost there) there is strictly no reason to buy a Sony/Nintendo console anymore.... especially since SEGA, Sony & al are porting more and more games to PC.
I think we are all in a better place if those platforms converge, and Sony/Nintendo just focus on making great games. But it doesn't matter anyway, since if Valve can release an actually good "console" experience, with builtin Steam store... Nintendo and Sony have nothing more to offer bar a few exclusives.
> Consoles are on their last run in my opinion.
I've heard that for every console generation for the last 15 years. I don't think the arguments are any stronger now than they were in 2013.
I've heard that for every console generation for the last 15 years. I don't think the arguments are any stronger now than they were in 2013.
Two big reasons why things are different:
1) with Valve's Steam Deck and the console-like experience for the Store on their Steam OS, PC GAMING is going to reach a broader market : you no longer need to install Windows, figure out driver updates or even how to use Windows, etc. in order to benefit from STEAM. edit: I have seen these type of gamers in the reddit discussions : they know about PC GAMING, they want a part of it, to enjoy it like their friends, but they never really got into the whole "building a pc" .. but now they are looking at the possibility finally of playing "PC games" on the Steam Deck (which is "good enough") ... not to mention the countless discussioons comparing the Switch and the Deck
... which ties right into #2 :
2) now you benefit from HUGE sales all year long. Every weekend games go on sale. Every holiday season there are huge sales.
You might argue there are also sales on PS/Nintendo, but I don't think they are as good there?
Plus, with Steam you get access to a huge catalog of "pc gaming", including so many smaller and super cheap games, many of which are actually quite decent.
Basically, if Valve gets thing right with the Steam Deck OS and their rumored "console"... pc gaming is reaching into the console market which they could never do before. And over the years the PC could become a platform to converge to since it is now on handhelds (Steamdeck) and games developed for it can provide a console experience.
And since SONY & al are already porting more of their games to PC, with controller support etc... their games are pretty much already "steam deck verified" and will be a premium experience on the future Valve console, so they've kinda already dug themselves into this "converging towards PC architecture" hole.
Imho the only question left in this scenario, is whether Linux platform + PROTON will be able to support AAA games consistently... but it looks like Valve is confident about it.
1) with Valve's Steam Deck and the console-like experience for the Store on their Steam OS, PC GAMING is going to reach a broader market : you no longer need to install Windows, figure out driver updates or even how to use Windows, etc. in order to benefit from STEAM. edit: I have seen these type of gamers in the reddit discussions : they know about PC GAMING, they want a part of it, to enjoy it like their friends, but they never really got into the whole "building a pc" .. but now they are looking at the possibility finally of playing "PC games" on the Steam Deck (which is "good enough") ... not to mention the countless discussioons comparing the Switch and the Deck
... which ties right into #2 :
2) now you benefit from HUGE sales all year long. Every weekend games go on sale. Every holiday season there are huge sales.
You might argue there are also sales on PS/Nintendo, but I don't think they are as good there?
Plus, with Steam you get access to a huge catalog of "pc gaming", including so many smaller and super cheap games, many of which are actually quite decent.
Basically, if Valve gets thing right with the Steam Deck OS and their rumored "console"... pc gaming is reaching into the console market which they could never do before. And over the years the PC could become a platform to converge to since it is now on handhelds (Steamdeck) and games developed for it can provide a console experience.
And since SONY & al are already porting more of their games to PC, with controller support etc... their games are pretty much already "steam deck verified" and will be a premium experience on the future Valve console, so they've kinda already dug themselves into this "converging towards PC architecture" hole.
Imho the only question left in this scenario, is whether Linux platform + PROTON will be able to support AAA games consistently... but it looks like Valve is confident about it.
Imho the only question left in this scenario,
To me the real question left is one of price. Will Valve be able to release a 'Steam Console' at the same price and performance as an Xbox? Or will people buying Xboxes today be willing to pay significantly more for a Steam Console than they are currently paying? As cool as the Steamdeck is, it's also twice the price of a Switch.
To me the real question left is one of price. Will Valve be able to release a 'Steam Console' at the same price and performance as an Xbox? Or will people buying Xboxes today be willing to pay significantly more for a Steam Console than they are currently paying? As cool as the Steamdeck is, it's also twice the price of a Switch.
1) The fact that Steam OS is Linux-based and mostly running games through Proton (Wine), I doubt we're going to see any console-grade "it just works" experience for a long time.
I've been playing Forza Horizon 5 during the weekend on my gaming PC. If I look it up on ProtonDB, I'm greeted with a red "BORKED" text for "won't start or is crucially unplayable". Forza Horizon 4, which is now three years old, is given a "Silver" rating. Looking through the comments, it varies between "Single player runs great", "Having minor issues" and "Won't run at all".
2) I think you're way overestimating the amount of money people spend and the amount of titles they buy. I'd wager that most people do not care about massive sales that much and they have a handful of titles they will play per year. And of course, there are the people who just buy FIFA / Madden / whatever when it comes out and play it for a year.
I've been playing Forza Horizon 5 during the weekend on my gaming PC. If I look it up on ProtonDB, I'm greeted with a red "BORKED" text for "won't start or is crucially unplayable". Forza Horizon 4, which is now three years old, is given a "Silver" rating. Looking through the comments, it varies between "Single player runs great", "Having minor issues" and "Won't run at all".
2) I think you're way overestimating the amount of money people spend and the amount of titles they buy. I'd wager that most people do not care about massive sales that much and they have a handful of titles they will play per year. And of course, there are the people who just buy FIFA / Madden / whatever when it comes out and play it for a year.
Sales are IME just as good on console as steam. And to semi-confirm I took a look at few big recentish titles and one older one and using websites like Steamdb and psndeals recorded the lowest price (non-PS+) for my region (CAN).
Deus Ex Mankind Divided: PSN: $5.99, Steam: $5.24
Mortal Kombat 11: PSN: $17.49 Steam: $17.49
Call of Duty 4 Remastered: PSN: $19.99 Steam: 24.99
Far Cry 5: PSN: $11.99 Steam: $11.99
Resident Evil 4: PS3: $4.99 PS4: $9.99 Steam: $4.99
Oh and for whatever reason PSN doesn't charge taxes in my region but Steam does so PSN is actually 15% cheaper.
Obviously this is just a tiny sample of games I could think of and more comparison could be done but IME PC prices are not significantly lower if at all. Humble Bundles might be an exception on a per game basis but you also get a lot of crap you may not have otherwise bought...
Games go on sale on PSN/Live/eShop all the time, every weekend and week there's usually something. Might not be the best deal ever on a game but that applies to Steam too.
Deus Ex Mankind Divided: PSN: $5.99, Steam: $5.24
Mortal Kombat 11: PSN: $17.49 Steam: $17.49
Call of Duty 4 Remastered: PSN: $19.99 Steam: 24.99
Far Cry 5: PSN: $11.99 Steam: $11.99
Resident Evil 4: PS3: $4.99 PS4: $9.99 Steam: $4.99
Oh and for whatever reason PSN doesn't charge taxes in my region but Steam does so PSN is actually 15% cheaper.
Obviously this is just a tiny sample of games I could think of and more comparison could be done but IME PC prices are not significantly lower if at all. Humble Bundles might be an exception on a per game basis but you also get a lot of crap you may not have otherwise bought...
Games go on sale on PSN/Live/eShop all the time, every weekend and week there's usually something. Might not be the best deal ever on a game but that applies to Steam too.
This doesn't make any sense. The biggest advantage of consoles over PCs is the fixed hardware, allowing developers to focus on hyper-optimization and bug fixing for all the quirks of that hardware. Not to mention the economies of scale console manufacturers can get when they are building tens or hundreds of millions of devices with the exact same specs.
Of course, Valve can design and release their own console with fixed hardware and they could perhaps out-compete Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft. But a customizable PC, especially one where you can install any Linux-based OS you want, will never be able to destroy the console market.
Not to mention, nothing that Valve has done indicates that they are willing to create a full Console OS, that would hide all of the desktop OS complexity from users and developers: headache free updates where you don't assume the user can just drop to a root shell if something breaks, network config utilities that can be used with a controller, fully standardized drivers, libc, OpenGL/Vulkan version etc.
Not to mention, part of the advantage of consoles is that they offer some amount of trusted computing: the fact that it's mostly impossible for users to install anything on a console is a major advantage even to end-users for Online games, where you have almost 0 problems with cheating compared to PC where it is a constant struggle.
Of course, Valve can design and release their own console with fixed hardware and they could perhaps out-compete Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft. But a customizable PC, especially one where you can install any Linux-based OS you want, will never be able to destroy the console market.
Not to mention, nothing that Valve has done indicates that they are willing to create a full Console OS, that would hide all of the desktop OS complexity from users and developers: headache free updates where you don't assume the user can just drop to a root shell if something breaks, network config utilities that can be used with a controller, fully standardized drivers, libc, OpenGL/Vulkan version etc.
Not to mention, part of the advantage of consoles is that they offer some amount of trusted computing: the fact that it's mostly impossible for users to install anything on a console is a major advantage even to end-users for Online games, where you have almost 0 problems with cheating compared to PC where it is a constant struggle.
> Of course, Valve can design and release their own console with fixed hardware and they could perhaps out-compete Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft. But a customizable PC, especially one where you can install any Linux-based OS you want, will never be able to destroy the console market.
I don't understand your argument either.
I think it's logical to assume when they already introduced "Steam Deck verified" (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0NIhJpHg0 ) that Valve will release a fixed config, and that developers will be able to finetune their game to run great on it.
Where I follow you is that in theory Valve allows other manufacturers to build a Steam Deck compatible hardware, and hence there may be third party alternatives to their rumored console, which indeed could have perhaps different GPU / CPUs...
In that case first thing comes to mind, is when you hear of all those 30 FPS games on today's consoles.. what are we losing here? Some mythical "console experience"? When consoles today do have all kind of lags and stuttery gameplay since games engines nowadays are more complex than ever? There's basically no downsides.. I mean even Nintendo I was watching someone play a simple game like Animal Crossing and the loading times were so long... where is the mythical console experience? Seems like it's been gone for a long time. Now you get a polished experience, and a platform that (in theory) doesn't crash, and doesn't require you to figure out drivers and whatnot.
Next thing comes to mind is, for those people who are new to PC GAMING, they don't need to touch anything. They are not going to "install any Linux-based OS they want". Why would they do that? That scenario is strictly for the advanced users like us who would already have a capable "gaming PC" and are confident about hacking things.
The cheating part is partially addressed by Valve, they're working with anticheat developers.
Regarding cheating it seems like consoles are no longer a "pristine environment" due to crossplay:
https://www.pcgamer.com/on-behalf-of-pc-gaming-sorry-about-a...
I don't understand your argument either.
I think it's logical to assume when they already introduced "Steam Deck verified" (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0NIhJpHg0 ) that Valve will release a fixed config, and that developers will be able to finetune their game to run great on it.
Where I follow you is that in theory Valve allows other manufacturers to build a Steam Deck compatible hardware, and hence there may be third party alternatives to their rumored console, which indeed could have perhaps different GPU / CPUs...
In that case first thing comes to mind, is when you hear of all those 30 FPS games on today's consoles.. what are we losing here? Some mythical "console experience"? When consoles today do have all kind of lags and stuttery gameplay since games engines nowadays are more complex than ever? There's basically no downsides.. I mean even Nintendo I was watching someone play a simple game like Animal Crossing and the loading times were so long... where is the mythical console experience? Seems like it's been gone for a long time. Now you get a polished experience, and a platform that (in theory) doesn't crash, and doesn't require you to figure out drivers and whatnot.
Next thing comes to mind is, for those people who are new to PC GAMING, they don't need to touch anything. They are not going to "install any Linux-based OS they want". Why would they do that? That scenario is strictly for the advanced users like us who would already have a capable "gaming PC" and are confident about hacking things.
The cheating part is partially addressed by Valve, they're working with anticheat developers.
Regarding cheating it seems like consoles are no longer a "pristine environment" due to crossplay:
https://www.pcgamer.com/on-behalf-of-pc-gaming-sorry-about-a...
People will always buy the only device Mario Kart is on.
You're not following the trends closely enough. Nintendo combined their portable and console markets with the Switch and this console format is a huge hit with kids, parents, and adult gamers even.
I suspect if MS takes another generational shellacking from Sony they will try a similar maneuver, combining the Xbox and Surface brands to make a single SKU gaming PC. The Xbox already runs Windows 10 with a custom ui. They won't drop out off the console race without trying this. (It would be a compelling student device.)
Sony is stuck selling dedicated TV attachments but luckily they command the biggest audience and have "won" the console war against MS three of the four generations. The PS5 has done so well there's no reason to believe there won't be a PS6. Sony plans the obsolescence on a 10 year timeline. They refused to put an SSD into the PS4 era consoles knowing that adding it would be a generational leap for the PS5, more than graphics.
I suspect if MS takes another generational shellacking from Sony they will try a similar maneuver, combining the Xbox and Surface brands to make a single SKU gaming PC. The Xbox already runs Windows 10 with a custom ui. They won't drop out off the console race without trying this. (It would be a compelling student device.)
Sony is stuck selling dedicated TV attachments but luckily they command the biggest audience and have "won" the console war against MS three of the four generations. The PS5 has done so well there's no reason to believe there won't be a PS6. Sony plans the obsolescence on a 10 year timeline. They refused to put an SSD into the PS4 era consoles knowing that adding it would be a generational leap for the PS5, more than graphics.
> Windows 10 with a custom ui. They won't drop out off the console race without trying this.
If Valve effectively releases a Valve "console" (a fully fledged desktop PC with the Steam Deck experience + powerful GPU)... who are we kidding? Who will buy a walled garden after that? Seems to me like Microsoft will at best be just competing...
If you follow the discussions on reddit about Steamdeck people are SUPER excited, and some gamers are alreadsy asking questions about linux and whether their next PC could be linux ; since Valve's endoresement of Proton on the Steam deck and the "Steam Deck verified" experience is making them confident that Linux will replace Windows.
Tons of gamers nowadays really only need a PC for gaming and general entertainment... meaning Windows is completely optional.
NihongoGamer has really good commentary on related topic:
About the "Steam Deck verified"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0NIhJpHg0
I don't know , I'm 47 and honestly Steam Deck + their rumored console that comes after it; is the most exciting news I've heard in gaming for a LONG time...
I'm a casual as you might expect at 47... I still want to play A game like NMS occasionally, but I don't want to spend all day updating Windows and tweaking GPU drivers and all the bullshit that is "pc building" today.
Last AAA game I bought was Assassin Creed Oddyssey. I paid 50 EUR during a Steam sale. Still pricey but it was pretty new. ... I played the game for few hours and realized I didn't like it all that much. This is the reason why I never bought into PS and Nintendo for the past fifteen years.. pretty much since the Dreamcast: is is hugely expensive. if you pay 70 EUR for a game you have to be really committed not just to like it, but to get your money's worth. I can"t afford to buy a 70 EUR game when I get bored of most games after a few hours.
Having a console like experience with the Steam store is hugely exciting for me... so many silly / smaller games, that you pay pennies and still can have fun for a few hours.. it opens up a whole new genre of games that consoles aren't well suited for, or that are just not easy to consume on the console. I mean, just browsing steam is fun in and of itself.
If Valve effectively releases a Valve "console" (a fully fledged desktop PC with the Steam Deck experience + powerful GPU)... who are we kidding? Who will buy a walled garden after that? Seems to me like Microsoft will at best be just competing...
If you follow the discussions on reddit about Steamdeck people are SUPER excited, and some gamers are alreadsy asking questions about linux and whether their next PC could be linux ; since Valve's endoresement of Proton on the Steam deck and the "Steam Deck verified" experience is making them confident that Linux will replace Windows.
Tons of gamers nowadays really only need a PC for gaming and general entertainment... meaning Windows is completely optional.
NihongoGamer has really good commentary on related topic:
About the "Steam Deck verified"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0NIhJpHg0
I don't know , I'm 47 and honestly Steam Deck + their rumored console that comes after it; is the most exciting news I've heard in gaming for a LONG time...
I'm a casual as you might expect at 47... I still want to play A game like NMS occasionally, but I don't want to spend all day updating Windows and tweaking GPU drivers and all the bullshit that is "pc building" today.
Last AAA game I bought was Assassin Creed Oddyssey. I paid 50 EUR during a Steam sale. Still pricey but it was pretty new. ... I played the game for few hours and realized I didn't like it all that much. This is the reason why I never bought into PS and Nintendo for the past fifteen years.. pretty much since the Dreamcast: is is hugely expensive. if you pay 70 EUR for a game you have to be really committed not just to like it, but to get your money's worth. I can"t afford to buy a 70 EUR game when I get bored of most games after a few hours.
Having a console like experience with the Steam store is hugely exciting for me... so many silly / smaller games, that you pay pennies and still can have fun for a few hours.. it opens up a whole new genre of games that consoles aren't well suited for, or that are just not easy to consume on the console. I mean, just browsing steam is fun in and of itself.
Windows (which has native support for Xbox controllers) shares a digital game store with Xbox now, there's even a subscription service that lets you play some games at launch. It's probably the best deal in gaming, if your metric is dollars per fun hours in trendy games.
Sony has not one but two subscription services with free games. Like USD $50/yr for access to 24 best sellers. You play them some time after launch. You can play recent releases on their more expensive subscription, I forget the price, but it's competing with the Xbox service I mentioned earlier.
So there's plenty of ways to play best sellers and fresh games for less than launch day full price. And even though the gardens are walled to their respective ecosystems, Sony and MS are targeting the same audience so the consumer still benefits from competition.
If Steam enters the arena with Steamdeck, they will be the ones competing against two established console makers who have steam's desired audience already bought in to subscription services.
I'm not convinced Valve moves to the front by default. I think it makes a three company race and Valve is going to have to lean HARD on the steamdeck form factor their first generation to establish themselves.
I don't think Valve is ready for the fiercity of the console wars at all. They couldn't even keep Epic game store at bay when they started dropping Fortnite money on exclusives. I'm sure they've learned their financial lesson on that one... now imagine inviting two more companies to bid on exclusives against you!
Sony has not one but two subscription services with free games. Like USD $50/yr for access to 24 best sellers. You play them some time after launch. You can play recent releases on their more expensive subscription, I forget the price, but it's competing with the Xbox service I mentioned earlier.
So there's plenty of ways to play best sellers and fresh games for less than launch day full price. And even though the gardens are walled to their respective ecosystems, Sony and MS are targeting the same audience so the consumer still benefits from competition.
If Steam enters the arena with Steamdeck, they will be the ones competing against two established console makers who have steam's desired audience already bought in to subscription services.
I'm not convinced Valve moves to the front by default. I think it makes a three company race and Valve is going to have to lean HARD on the steamdeck form factor their first generation to establish themselves.
I don't think Valve is ready for the fiercity of the console wars at all. They couldn't even keep Epic game store at bay when they started dropping Fortnite money on exclusives. I'm sure they've learned their financial lesson on that one... now imagine inviting two more companies to bid on exclusives against you!
>have "won" the console war against MS three of the four generations
Four out of four generations if we go by (current) sales. The PS2 outsold everything, the PS3 had a narrow sales advantage compared to the Xbox 360, the PS4 pummeled the Xbox One and the PS5 has gotten a pretty considerable lead over the Xbox Series. Obviously the latter one is still an on-going matter and maybe the Series S will get a sudden boost in popularity later in the race (it's currently basically the only current-generation console you can find in stock easily, so it's probably not that popular now).
Four out of four generations if we go by (current) sales. The PS2 outsold everything, the PS3 had a narrow sales advantage compared to the Xbox 360, the PS4 pummeled the Xbox One and the PS5 has gotten a pretty considerable lead over the Xbox Series. Obviously the latter one is still an on-going matter and maybe the Series S will get a sudden boost in popularity later in the race (it's currently basically the only current-generation console you can find in stock easily, so it's probably not that popular now).
> Imho once there is a "console" that is basically Steamdeck with builtin Steam store and a powerful GPU... in otherword a fully capable PC with desktop performance + the console user experience (or almost there) there is strictly no reason to buy a Sony/Nintendo console anymore
I'm not sure I understand. What kind of device are you waiting for? The way I see it, a "fully capable PC with desktop performance + the console user experience" already exists, it's called a gaming PC with Steam Big Picture.
> But it doesn't matter anyway, since if Valve can release an actually good "console" experience, with builtin Steam store... Nintendo and Sony have nothing more to offer bar a few exclusives.
If Valve releases a console with an actually good console experience, then great, one more console with good console experience to choose from. So what does it bring to the table that other consoles don't have? Their PC-gaming oriented game catalog full of games that are either also available on consoles or are for some reason unsuitable for the usual couch+controller style? Because if I wanted that, I would've bought a gaming PC with Steam Big Picture, a thing that already exists.
I'm not sure I understand. What kind of device are you waiting for? The way I see it, a "fully capable PC with desktop performance + the console user experience" already exists, it's called a gaming PC with Steam Big Picture.
> But it doesn't matter anyway, since if Valve can release an actually good "console" experience, with builtin Steam store... Nintendo and Sony have nothing more to offer bar a few exclusives.
If Valve releases a console with an actually good console experience, then great, one more console with good console experience to choose from. So what does it bring to the table that other consoles don't have? Their PC-gaming oriented game catalog full of games that are either also available on consoles or are for some reason unsuitable for the usual couch+controller style? Because if I wanted that, I would've bought a gaming PC with Steam Big Picture, a thing that already exists.
A PC where I never need to know about the OS.
Using a controller in front of my PC, while sitting at a desk, has never felt right for me. Always was awkward, when I have a keyboard and mouse in front of me.
So there is the form factor, plus all the hassle that goes with maintaining a PC.
Using a controller in front of my PC, while sitting at a desk, has never felt right for me. Always was awkward, when I have a keyboard and mouse in front of me.
So there is the form factor, plus all the hassle that goes with maintaining a PC.
I feel dirty having closed source games installed on my main machine, god forbid Windows. There is sooo much stuff going on in games these days, I don't want that attack surface/system intrusion where I keep my things.
For 300€ I got a computer (PS4 Pro) dedicated to nothing else but gaming. And that's mostly just because I can help it, crave Skyrim and Fallout 4 once or twice a year, anyway.
A worthy PC would cost me at least 800€. Right now, I'd say it's even impossible, because of the graphics card situation and APUs don't match the consoles.
While games can look better on PC, you would also pay another PS4 in electricity costs to run a fancy system, over here.
For 300€ I got a computer (PS4 Pro) dedicated to nothing else but gaming. And that's mostly just because I can help it, crave Skyrim and Fallout 4 once or twice a year, anyway.
A worthy PC would cost me at least 800€. Right now, I'd say it's even impossible, because of the graphics card situation and APUs don't match the consoles.
While games can look better on PC, you would also pay another PS4 in electricity costs to run a fancy system, over here.
The target group for consoles is people who for one thing want the thing to just work, and not have to fiddle with Windows update, drivers for their hardware, maintain Steam/EGS/UPlay/Origin/Gog/itch.io/Humble, and also not pay ridonculous prices for the latest RTX3080 or whatever is the graphics card these days. And this piece of hardware IS also cheaper than the equivalent PC (except right now with the chip shortage where the PS5 is pretty overpriced)... add some exclusives to the mix, and customers buy this.
The fact that a game might be 69.- instead of 59.- on release and for a much longer time without sales on this platform is then suddenly not so important anymore.
The fact that a game might be 69.- instead of 59.- on release and for a much longer time without sales on this platform is then suddenly not so important anymore.
What was the last console you used? A PS2? These talking points would have been relevant 20 years ago, but they sadly aren’t the same ease of putting in your game and playing. Consoles are constantly updating their firmware, have annoyingly large mandatory game updates for online play, require you to pay for online (PS3 was a treasure, PC is usually free it isn’t monthly/yearly subscription unless you’re doing an MMO usually), and they’re basically just slower crappier PCs.
Whats the point of bringing up the most expensive GPU, is that what most gamers have? Most gamers on Steam have a varient of a 1050 or 1060, originally a $140, and a $250-$300 card from 2016. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ You ignored PC exclusives too.
> Given all the issues described in this thread, what is the upside of a game console (non-gamer)? Why not get a PC that you can automatically use for other things, can play games from any vendor etc (some of the issues mentioned in the thread).
A console is cheaper, and can be left permanently attached to your TV; and the UX is more focussed than a general purpose PC, and optimized for controller as single input; you probably want a PC—probably a laptop—for other things, but unless you are going to buy a second PC for living room gaming, it isn't really a console substitute.
> Are consoles cheaper “per transistor” or sth?
Yes.
> If so, why? Is it about the vendor locking you in and charging more per game?
Actually, its about the vendor charging developers for access to you; at release AAA game prices are pretty similar console vs. PC (over time, I think PC game prices fall further and faster, but like films games live or die by earlier sales. If you are a buyer that tends to buy games long after release, then PC is much more attractive.)
A console is cheaper, and can be left permanently attached to your TV; and the UX is more focussed than a general purpose PC, and optimized for controller as single input; you probably want a PC—probably a laptop—for other things, but unless you are going to buy a second PC for living room gaming, it isn't really a console substitute.
> Are consoles cheaper “per transistor” or sth?
Yes.
> If so, why? Is it about the vendor locking you in and charging more per game?
Actually, its about the vendor charging developers for access to you; at release AAA game prices are pretty similar console vs. PC (over time, I think PC game prices fall further and faster, but like films games live or die by earlier sales. If you are a buyer that tends to buy games long after release, then PC is much more attractive.)
To me the big plus is compartmentalizing, having my games in an isolated environment designed /optimized for that makes it easier to keep my computer safe because I no longer have to consider GPU driver availability / stability in Linux or even running Windows in my computer and that's a big plus.
>Are consoles cheaper “per transistor” or sth? If so, why?
Yes. Because of scale and optimization.
But that's more of a side-effect than the real reason. It's mostly about having a device you can switch on and instantly play. No installing drivers. No picking parts. No incompatibilities.
I've been building my own PCs for over a decade but I'm losing interest. It's such a hassle. I do 90% of my gaming on my Switch. Games I had on Steam for years and barely touched I suddenly play through in a week on the Switch. Why? Convenience.
Yes. Because of scale and optimization.
But that's more of a side-effect than the real reason. It's mostly about having a device you can switch on and instantly play. No installing drivers. No picking parts. No incompatibilities.
I've been building my own PCs for over a decade but I'm losing interest. It's such a hassle. I do 90% of my gaming on my Switch. Games I had on Steam for years and barely touched I suddenly play through in a week on the Switch. Why? Convenience.
Playing on a TV is different than on a desk. Of course you can do both with a PC, but often you don't have your PC in the right place to play on the couch in front of your TV.
There are console-exclusive games, depending on which types of games you like those exclusives can be extremely interesting.
A PC is more expensive, almost always has been. If you need a desktop PC anyway, that might not matter much as you only need to factor in the better GPU for gaming. But with the GPU prices right now even a mid-range card is more expensive than a full next-gen console.
There are console-exclusive games, depending on which types of games you like those exclusives can be extremely interesting.
A PC is more expensive, almost always has been. If you need a desktop PC anyway, that might not matter much as you only need to factor in the better GPU for gaming. But with the GPU prices right now even a mid-range card is more expensive than a full next-gen console.
I'm with you on the benefits, but for those of us who successfully use a PC as a TV console, console exclusives are a real kick in the teeth.
Bloodborne was released in 2013 and I am still waiting to play it.
Bloodborne was released in 2013 and I am still waiting to play it.
> console exclusives are a real kick in the teeth.
Console exclusives are often funded by manufacturers, so the game may not exist without the console.
Console exclusives are often funded by manufacturers, so the game may not exist without the console.
I am naive to the economics of it but I imagine they could also choose to act as publishers where they take a cut of sales on all platforms. I believe their objective is to entice people to buy the console on the basis that it has better games than the competition - not all together bad - but as someone who likes video games I would like them to find another way to compete.
To me the issue is that games aren't required to release on all consoles. Nor should they be required to be, because that goes against the whole idea of free market competition: if all games are required to be released on Xbox, what is stopping Xbox from hiking up their prices? Paying developers for exclusives is the opposite and is competition.
"If you build it they will come", doesn't work. Look at the PS Vita, which very quickly stopped getting Sony support for games and languished. It shouldn't be up to all game developers to release on Vita, it is up to Sony to attract developers.
"If you build it they will come", doesn't work. Look at the PS Vita, which very quickly stopped getting Sony support for games and languished. It shouldn't be up to all game developers to release on Vita, it is up to Sony to attract developers.
It runs better on emulator than it does Playstation, there are 60fps mods :)
There's a PS4 emulator that is capable of Bloodborne? :o
I have a decent gaming PC but still got the PS3, PS4 afterwards and now the PS5 for their portability. We have gaming / couch co-op nights of 4 and play Fifa or split-screen games.
The PS3 even supported 7 controllers and is still used for some Bomberman Ultra. The PS4 and PS5 sadly max out at 4...
And these are still half the size and weight of my PC. Of course there are mini-itx gaming rigs out there but those cost as much or more than all my consoles and controllers together.
The PS3 even supported 7 controllers and is still used for some Bomberman Ultra. The PS4 and PS5 sadly max out at 4...
And these are still half the size and weight of my PC. Of course there are mini-itx gaming rigs out there but those cost as much or more than all my consoles and controllers together.
For me it is the ability to jump in, play for 30 mins and get out any time I want. The guarantee that everything that has a label of my console on it will work instead of my PC specs running it in a sub-optimal mode or not running at all. The fact that I don't have to worry about dealing with Windows or PC in general just to play some games but biggest of all, the ability to just pack it up and take it with me wherever I go is immense. That said, I'll be moving to a different city in NA soon kind of semi-permanently and am thinking of building a home PC for work+gaming.
Minor conveniences spoiling yet another ideal.
i have GTX 970, in drivers section of Nvidia its in legacy category.
I dont really see the issue of suboptimal experience to worry about. Modern games autodetect optimal options to play out of the box.
I dont really see the issue of suboptimal experience to worry about. Modern games autodetect optimal options to play out of the box.
You still have the problem of maintaining an OS, installing the games and possible downtimes when something breaks on the windows side. Plus, you still have to worry whether your hardware is sufficient to play it fluidly at all times. On a console, someone tested that for you and ironed out the edge cases.
I'm not a console gamer, but I can see the appeal.
I'm not a console gamer, but I can see the appeal.
Exactly. I used to play games all the time as a teenager on my PC and managing the PC was actually fun but since I started working, I just don't have the time to think about drivers, updates, viruses, anti-viruses, upgrading the graphics and all that stuff.
The Windows not working sound overly exaggerated as an issue. I think that's why I even replied to OP. Overblown issues as an argument for/against something.
The whole pc vs console is like arguing what mode of transportation is better. Apples to oranges, use what you like and be happy about it.
The whole pc vs console is like arguing what mode of transportation is better. Apples to oranges, use what you like and be happy about it.
You've never had a game do a bad job of that? I've had plenty of games either set everything to Ultra and be a slideshow or set everything to low when I could easily handle medium or high. GeForce Experience helps somewhat but not every title supports it.
To be honest I dont play that many new games these days, so I might not have a good sample of experiences.
But I don't recall ever having to configure a game because it doesn't work.
As a counter point though, there used to be stories of people buying a game on console and had to download 30GB patches in order to play it.
Also paying for subscription to play online games always irk me the wrong way.
Ether way PC or console there are pros and cons
But I don't recall ever having to configure a game because it doesn't work.
As a counter point though, there used to be stories of people buying a game on console and had to download 30GB patches in order to play it.
Also paying for subscription to play online games always irk me the wrong way.
Ether way PC or console there are pros and cons
That's not been my experience on a console since the Sega Megadrive. Whenever I find a couple of hours to play video games (working around kids, wife, etc) I inevitably have to spend an hour downloading countless patches, updates, etc. Modern day gaming consoles have become more difficult to just pick up and play than consoles of yesteryear.
There's definitely more obstacles in way of gaming, but I find consoles have way less of them than PC gaming does. A gaming console can really only get an OS update or a title update to slow you down, but on a gaming PC, you also have a bunch of drivers that want to update themselves and a bunch of gaming launchers that want to update themselves.
Also, I find Windows updates much more annoying than I find PlayStation updates.
Also, I find Windows updates much more annoying than I find PlayStation updates.
I have a beast of a desktop PC but still find myself getting into console games far more than PC games.
I think when I'm at my desk there's always this nagging feeling telling me I could be doing something more productive (code, music, learning) whereas on the sofa with a console I don't feel that.
I think when I'm at my desk there's always this nagging feeling telling me I could be doing something more productive (code, music, learning) whereas on the sofa with a console I don't feel that.
Accessibility.
I can't game on PC anymore because of RSI when using mouse. Even for cross platform games, the console version usually has far superior controller support.
I can't game on PC anymore because of RSI when using mouse. Even for cross platform games, the console version usually has far superior controller support.
As a casual gamer, for me it's largely that i'm playing a game from the comfort of my sofa and using the big screen vs using a PC at the desk I've been working at all day.
Plus there's still a culture of buying and selling hard copy console games which can make the net running cost next to nothing.
Plus there's still a culture of buying and selling hard copy console games which can make the net running cost next to nothing.
You have to use Windows or deal with weird compatibility hacks?
I’m really looking forward to the Steam deck. It may not have the power of current-gen consoles, but it takes so many good things about current consoles and combines them together. Openness of a PC, not Windows, portable + docking, etc.
I’m really looking forward to the Steam deck. It may not have the power of current-gen consoles, but it takes so many good things about current consoles and combines them together. Openness of a PC, not Windows, portable + docking, etc.
Why do you need a weaker handheld? Nvidia moonlight can stream from PC already, played Halo on my iPhone with controller. Steam link or equivalent on TV works, and you can just subscribe to nvidia GeForce now if you want to be GPU free anywhere(all long as games are supported). The things I’d want to run from the deck will be served better on a laptop anyway. No thanks to 720p screen, low battery life, the weight of the device is too heavy for a handheld. A ryzen APU laptop from 2017 will do everything better.
I agree that streaming is interesting, and I did it from a mac a few times, but you have to be online w/ a good connection in order to do streaming.
I got a switch as a present recently and while I don't like Nintendo's eStore software, pricing and console power, I found myself just picking it up and playing randomly in off time much more than opening a laptop and getting a separate joystick or mouse to play a game. I only played it docked once.
If the steam deck came out earlier I probably wouldn't have bought my g14.
I got a switch as a present recently and while I don't like Nintendo's eStore software, pricing and console power, I found myself just picking it up and playing randomly in off time much more than opening a laptop and getting a separate joystick or mouse to play a game. I only played it docked once.
If the steam deck came out earlier I probably wouldn't have bought my g14.
If you have an nvidia card you can install moonlight and stream it to anything that the app installs to. I played Halo on iOS with a xbox one controller mounted to my phone (had to use 5Ghz instead of 2.4Ghz). If the gift was an older switch there’s tons of homebrew on it, it was hacked at the beginning since it was just a Tegra and nvidia shared all the hardware info to developers. I think it’s a fine piece of hardware as someone who used a hacked PSP for mostly emulating old Nintendo consoles. I ended up playing Pokémon rom hacks more than PSP games. It’s still a viable solution for gaming, the vita is technically better and paysw more games, as does the switch but the games I care about are solved on my current mobile gaming hardware, and if you want a better homebrew device some jailbroken older iPhone or Android with emulators connected to a wireless controller (or mounted) will be good enough. I saw a GameCube emulator on an S9 playing skyward sword pretty well.
I think that streaming from a desktop is probably the best way to go, if you’re just playing at home it’s great, but if you’re mobile a dedicated device is better. The deck is too heavy for being a good handheld, and I have plenty of fun with older games: newer games might have better graphics but they’re often not as fun. The best CoD for me was BO2, and the best classic games don’t need good hardware, although I’d find very little reason to play some like SS2 on the go. The idea of playing computer games on the go is enticing but most require more attention, so streaming at home is the best compromise and it’s a solved problem with network streaming. I don’t have bias against AMD I just use nvidia and know the software for it. They might have a better solution.
I think that streaming from a desktop is probably the best way to go, if you’re just playing at home it’s great, but if you’re mobile a dedicated device is better. The deck is too heavy for being a good handheld, and I have plenty of fun with older games: newer games might have better graphics but they’re often not as fun. The best CoD for me was BO2, and the best classic games don’t need good hardware, although I’d find very little reason to play some like SS2 on the go. The idea of playing computer games on the go is enticing but most require more attention, so streaming at home is the best compromise and it’s a solved problem with network streaming. I don’t have bias against AMD I just use nvidia and know the software for it. They might have a better solution.
> You have to use Windows or deal with weird compatibility hacks?
> I’m really looking forward to the Steam deck.
Uhm, the Steam deck is literally running Linux and using the same compatibility "hacks" for non-native games. Which are not hard to "deal with" these days btw - Steam handles all that for you with Proton, you just press play.
> I’m really looking forward to the Steam deck.
Uhm, the Steam deck is literally running Linux and using the same compatibility "hacks" for non-native games. Which are not hard to "deal with" these days btw - Steam handles all that for you with Proton, you just press play.
Cheaper for sure but the underlying complexity is completely hidden on consoles. There are many justifications for why PCs "can be simple" if you just buy pre-built, but that only solves your problem for an unspecified amount of time.
With a console, you buy the latest one and play the games until there's a new one (in the case where money is no object). You never have to worry about settings or optimisation, it just works. You also know exactly when your hardware is out of date because there's a new generation console.
Personally I'm a PC gamer, I currently run an RTX 3070 and I still wonder whether my CPU or RAM are limiting performance because I'm not getting the performance I expected (but wasn't guaranteed by any single vendor for my custom build). This is a problem I can solve, but it would be worth it to me to pay someone else to deal with it because I just don't have the time/inclination.
Maybe I should buy a console...
With a console, you buy the latest one and play the games until there's a new one (in the case where money is no object). You never have to worry about settings or optimisation, it just works. You also know exactly when your hardware is out of date because there's a new generation console.
Personally I'm a PC gamer, I currently run an RTX 3070 and I still wonder whether my CPU or RAM are limiting performance because I'm not getting the performance I expected (but wasn't guaranteed by any single vendor for my custom build). This is a problem I can solve, but it would be worth it to me to pay someone else to deal with it because I just don't have the time/inclination.
Maybe I should buy a console...
Your wording is a little unclear, I can't tell if you want to know what gamers see in consoles or what non-gamers see in consoles. A dozen ppl have answered the first one so I'll answer the second one.
Since sony sells console hardware at a loss (only Nintendo doesn't do this), jailbreaking PS5 will create demand for the devices in clusters. Lots of research was done on PS3 and PS4 clusters where you could get GPU (and at one time CPU!) for cheaper than anywhere else. In modern times, I suspect people will mine crypto on them.
If so, this is actually really bad news for gamers because it will put the hottest current gen console into the same bidding war with miners as GPUs have been in the past few years.
Since sony sells console hardware at a loss (only Nintendo doesn't do this), jailbreaking PS5 will create demand for the devices in clusters. Lots of research was done on PS3 and PS4 clusters where you could get GPU (and at one time CPU!) for cheaper than anywhere else. In modern times, I suspect people will mine crypto on them.
If so, this is actually really bad news for gamers because it will put the hottest current gen console into the same bidding war with miners as GPUs have been in the past few years.
For me it’s the fact that you buy one and you know that all games will perform reasonably well for the next 5 or so years. A mediocre gaming pc now won’t be able to play the games that come out in 2027.
Any technological question has a car analogy, in this case a PS5 is kind of like a mid range sports car while a PC is… well, a custom car, so pretty much anything.
So why buy a mid range sports car if you can buy an SUV for the same price that you can also go grocery shopping with, or a pickup that you can also haul stuff with?
In the end it always comes down to the use case of the thing, and the people buying consoles are not just interested in playing games, they’re also not interested in the stuff a PC offers.
As soon as you introduce choices, you introduce complexity. People buy consoles because they want to play games with the least amount of complexity involved, and they’re willing to sacrifice those choices because often they don’t even want them in the first place.
Also, consoles often have some games that only come out for that console, so if you’re really interested in a game, sometimes buying the console is your only choice.
So why buy a mid range sports car if you can buy an SUV for the same price that you can also go grocery shopping with, or a pickup that you can also haul stuff with?
In the end it always comes down to the use case of the thing, and the people buying consoles are not just interested in playing games, they’re also not interested in the stuff a PC offers.
As soon as you introduce choices, you introduce complexity. People buy consoles because they want to play games with the least amount of complexity involved, and they’re willing to sacrifice those choices because often they don’t even want them in the first place.
Also, consoles often have some games that only come out for that console, so if you’re really interested in a game, sometimes buying the console is your only choice.
A few major factors, in roughly decreasing order of subjective importance:
1. Console games are initially more expensive, but you can sell them used when you're done, which isn't possible on PC. I regularly buy games for $100 (Australian pricing) and sell them a month or two months later for $80. (I'd rent them, but rentals don't exist anymore. I keep the ones I really really loved, but sell on most.) On PC, the same game might launch for $10-20 less, but that doesn't make up for not being able to get $80 back from every purchase.
2. Many games are unfortunately exclusive to a particular console, including many of the most popular franchises, e.g. Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, and The Legend of Zelda are only on Nintendo consoles. If those are your favorite games, then none of the other factors really matter. And it's much more common for games to be exclusive to a console than exclusive to PC; there's virtually nothing these days that doesn't end up on the consoles, there are usually a couple of major blockbusters every year that don't make it to PC.
3. PC graphics card prices have absolutely skyrocketed due to cryptocurrency mining. I paid $130 for my graphics card seven years ago; the same model regularly sells for $150 on eBay now and when I look at replacing it, I can't find anything that significantly beats it for under $300. I looked at spending my tax return on a multi-part PC upgrade, but to match the performance of the new PlayStation I'd have to spend nearly double its price, and most graphics cards would require me to join a waiting list. (As it is, I went with neither and I'm waiting to see what happens next year.)
4. Formerly, playing games together with friends in the same room. Sadly, this is less and less well-supported on consoles with every year that goes by, but it used to be practically exclusive to them, and not something PC games ever implemented. This was especially important for kids (who make up a huge portion of the market and often have siblings to share the console with) and students (who would hold multiplayer game nights in dorms etc). It matters even for online multiplayer, though. You want the system your best friends have so you can all play together. And that's more likely to be one of the major consoles, and you'll rarely get your whole friend group to switch, especially if it's to a more expensive (at least upfront) option.
1. Console games are initially more expensive, but you can sell them used when you're done, which isn't possible on PC. I regularly buy games for $100 (Australian pricing) and sell them a month or two months later for $80. (I'd rent them, but rentals don't exist anymore. I keep the ones I really really loved, but sell on most.) On PC, the same game might launch for $10-20 less, but that doesn't make up for not being able to get $80 back from every purchase.
2. Many games are unfortunately exclusive to a particular console, including many of the most popular franchises, e.g. Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, and The Legend of Zelda are only on Nintendo consoles. If those are your favorite games, then none of the other factors really matter. And it's much more common for games to be exclusive to a console than exclusive to PC; there's virtually nothing these days that doesn't end up on the consoles, there are usually a couple of major blockbusters every year that don't make it to PC.
3. PC graphics card prices have absolutely skyrocketed due to cryptocurrency mining. I paid $130 for my graphics card seven years ago; the same model regularly sells for $150 on eBay now and when I look at replacing it, I can't find anything that significantly beats it for under $300. I looked at spending my tax return on a multi-part PC upgrade, but to match the performance of the new PlayStation I'd have to spend nearly double its price, and most graphics cards would require me to join a waiting list. (As it is, I went with neither and I'm waiting to see what happens next year.)
4. Formerly, playing games together with friends in the same room. Sadly, this is less and less well-supported on consoles with every year that goes by, but it used to be practically exclusive to them, and not something PC games ever implemented. This was especially important for kids (who make up a huge portion of the market and often have siblings to share the console with) and students (who would hold multiplayer game nights in dorms etc). It matters even for online multiplayer, though. You want the system your best friends have so you can all play together. And that's more likely to be one of the major consoles, and you'll rarely get your whole friend group to switch, especially if it's to a more expensive (at least upfront) option.
Because a lot of people think Windows sucks and is too much to deal with. Linux drivers are a question mark. BSD isn't up to date enough. Plus exclusive titles.
In the PS3 and early PS4 era, yeah you were missing out on PC gaming but nowadays consoles are plenty fast. Plenty fast indeed.
In the PS3 and early PS4 era, yeah you were missing out on PC gaming but nowadays consoles are plenty fast. Plenty fast indeed.
> what is the upside of a game console
No bullshit. PC's have compatibility issues, weird hardware edge-cases where you have to debug with multiple drivers to achieve stable performance (I wish I had only one of those per year of gaming...), etc. Quite simply consoles have issues sometimes, but broadly they are just far too small to really be items. Consistency is king when you just want to play videogames.
No bullshit. PC's have compatibility issues, weird hardware edge-cases where you have to debug with multiple drivers to achieve stable performance (I wish I had only one of those per year of gaming...), etc. Quite simply consoles have issues sometimes, but broadly they are just far too small to really be items. Consistency is king when you just want to play videogames.
Consoles are substantially cheaper. I bought a new pc recently.
Also, people don't need any of the "other stuff", so there is that.
PC has the biggest game library though if you don't have boundaries (include emulators and stuff). You can't get anywhere close. And if stuff is broken, you can fix it. And if stuff is boring, you can cheat to the fun part (single player games!).
Also, people don't need any of the "other stuff", so there is that.
PC has the biggest game library though if you don't have boundaries (include emulators and stuff). You can't get anywhere close. And if stuff is broken, you can fix it. And if stuff is boring, you can cheat to the fun part (single player games!).
I prefer PC gaming, but I can see the value of a system that works out of the box with fixed specs that the game developer has to take under account to ensure a playable experience.
Because modern PC gaming anticheat software is worse than malware. They analyze everything you every do on your PC. They scan and upload your personal files.
If I have to have a separate machine for gaming to have some privacy I'm going to just buy a console.
If I have to have a separate machine for gaming to have some privacy I'm going to just buy a console.
Want to game? Sit on sofa, press 1 button, game.
[deleted]
Same reason no one in their right mind used their desktop tower to watch DVDs on the living room TV
Consoles are cheaper, self contained, and get away from the "yer just a casual" bro'ness of computer gamers. It's not present everywhere, but it is quite common. Works out of the box with no need to spend hours configure for max performance. No RGB issues.
As a general rule, there's not much difference between one instance of "console X" and another instance of "console X", but the difference between "PC 1" and "PC 2" can be quite substantial. This usually gives a console a longer useful lifespan than a "gaming PC".
As an example, I bought a PS4 late 2013 or early 2014 (honestly can't recall the exact date), and it was performing pretty well for games released, um, whenever I last bought a new game (late 2020, I think). I doubt that a PC from 2013 would have been able to play a "beefy" PC game released late 2020.
I mean, I guess I could chase the forefront of PC hardware, just to support gaming. But, then I'd also have to dual-boot (it is still the case that a substantial amount of PC games need Windows to run on), and lock myself in to updating the PC hardware every 2-3 years, just to keep up with new titles.
Meanwhile, my primary desktop was purchased before my PS4 and still runs linux admirably. Would I get more oomph if I upgraded it? Sure, more (much more) RAM and probably 2x - 4x the number of cores. But, I don't actually have to, it does what it needs to.
As an example, I bought a PS4 late 2013 or early 2014 (honestly can't recall the exact date), and it was performing pretty well for games released, um, whenever I last bought a new game (late 2020, I think). I doubt that a PC from 2013 would have been able to play a "beefy" PC game released late 2020.
I mean, I guess I could chase the forefront of PC hardware, just to support gaming. But, then I'd also have to dual-boot (it is still the case that a substantial amount of PC games need Windows to run on), and lock myself in to updating the PC hardware every 2-3 years, just to keep up with new titles.
Meanwhile, my primary desktop was purchased before my PS4 and still runs linux admirably. Would I get more oomph if I upgraded it? Sure, more (much more) RAM and probably 2x - 4x the number of cores. But, I don't actually have to, it does what it needs to.
Gaming on PC generally means Windows, many of us don't want it on our computers, which would mean "getting a PC" would not result in a computer that you'd want to use for other things.
> Gaming on PC generally means Windows
Whatnow. There are more games that run on Linux than anyone will have the time to play. Then there is also Proton. A lot has changed since 2010.
Whatnow. There are more games that run on Linux than anyone will have the time to play. Then there is also Proton. A lot has changed since 2010.
Can someone explain what are the consequences of this? Can this be patched? Does this mean cracking games will be possible?
If you disconnect your PS5 from the internet now, then yes, probably, in a few years. I would anticipate Sony using updates and e-fuses to prevent its use on any console that stays live.
From the thread:
> Can these be rotated easily?
> No.
We might get lucky.
> Can these be rotated easily?
> No.
We might get lucky.
I'd be surprised. The PS3's keys were leaked too (by the same group, in fact), and Sony managed to put the genie back in the bottle in a pretty amazing way.
Is there any reference to how Sony re-secured the PS3? All I'm aware of is the fact that they killed the ability to run Linux on PS3 because they couldn't re-secure it while retaining the ability to run a different OS.
Wait, wasn’t it the other way around? There was that fail0verflow slide about how the PS3 took unusually long to crack if you count from the release, but essentially the same time as other consoles if you count from the moment one couldn’t run other OSes on it.
If it was cracked after Linux was removed, then what was the reason for removing Linux? My recollection was that it was a security vulnerability.
They started out by not including it in the Slim, then removed it for "security reasons" in a firmware update for the original consoles. I imagine they just decided not to bother with the new product, and then wiped it from the existing ones.
Some people started buying ps3 to build compute clusters.
This was because the ps3 had a very strong processor made by ibm, using rhe powerpc isa.
This meant that ibm started losing sales of their powerpc systems.
So the story i know is that ibm "asked" sony to stop allowing linux on the ps3.
This was because the ps3 had a very strong processor made by ibm, using rhe powerpc isa.
This meant that ibm started losing sales of their powerpc systems.
So the story i know is that ibm "asked" sony to stop allowing linux on the ps3.
[deleted]
I don't remember the specifics, but after the keys were leaked (this would have been about a year after OtherOS was removed?), Sony managed to both release a firmware update that disabled homebrew, as well as block new releases from running on the old, hackable firmware.
That new firmware lasted for more than a year, too.
That new firmware lasted for more than a year, too.
Efuses
But wouldn't this allow to decrypt any future patch data and see exactly what was changed, thus allowing to bypass it?
As someone who isn't in the jailbreaking space I don't really know what this means. Can you sign your own PS5 code and run it on the hardware?
No, signing is done with asymmetric keys. Someone sign with their private key so you can verify it with their public key, basically.
Symmetric keys are used to encrypt the code for updates, generally to prevent unintentional leak of secrets or just to prevent reverse engineering.
I'm not in the jailbreaking space, but I guess that what it means here is that some people may find flaws in the code and leverage them to potentially bypass the signature verification, although this might prove very difficult to do. It might also help emulating the PS5 behavior which in turns could lead to some modding/cheating for some games. Who knows ?
I'm not in the jailbreaking space, but I guess that what it means here is that some people may find flaws in the code and leverage them to potentially bypass the signature verification, although this might prove very difficult to do. It might also help emulating the PS5 behavior which in turns could lead to some modding/cheating for some games. Who knows ?
I hope they also get the asymmetric keys once. I'll buy the thing then. I'm not buying hardware I can't patch to have root access and run custom firmwre on.
It's almost certainly impossible.
With symmetric encryption, both the encryptor and decryptor need a copy of the same key- that's what makes it 'symmetric'.
But with asymmetric encryption, the keys do not match. This means you can encrypt or sign the data with your private key, and then keep it private. The matching pubic key will decrypt or verify.
The device would not have a copy of the private key in it, so it's unlikely it will ever leak.
With symmetric encryption, both the encryptor and decryptor need a copy of the same key- that's what makes it 'symmetric'.
But with asymmetric encryption, the keys do not match. This means you can encrypt or sign the data with your private key, and then keep it private. The matching pubic key will decrypt or verify.
The device would not have a copy of the private key in it, so it's unlikely it will ever leak.
I know but everything is likely to leak sooner or later.
PS5 is too attractive a target, anyone who cracks it will be etched in history forever.
The hackers will come up with a workaround, they always do. I eagerly await the 33c3 presentation.
The hackers will come up with a workaround, they always do. I eagerly await the 33c3 presentation.
These keys are symmetric, so they can be used for decryption. With these symmetric keys you might be able to decrypt games, videos, save files etc sitting on the disk. I don't believe signing will be possible, nobody uses symmetric keys for signing games.
What this does is increase the possibility of someone finding how to bypass the signature verification check and then running their own code.
What this does is increase the possibility of someone finding how to bypass the signature verification check and then running their own code.
Why don't they use asymmetric keys for everything?
Symmetric keys means that anyone with the key can do everything the key allows one to do. That's bad if you're building consumer devices that contain the key. Signing with public key cryptography, which allows only verification with the end-user key, is much more secure in this scenario.
This isn't a good answer for "Why don't they use asymmetric keys for everything?" as you basically just explained that it would be more secure to use asymmetric keys.
You're right. I misread the question and thought they asked why they weren't using symmetric keys for everything. My bad.
If you need to encrypt and decrypt your data, on the same device, asymmetric is only more complex.
Because we don't generally use asymmetric keys for much data encryption. The operations are (IIRC) comparatively computationally expensive.
First of all, we are talking about on-device decryption, so there is no difference in terms of security whether people extract a symmetric secret key or an asymmetric secret key.
Secondly, yes, asymmetric encryption is slower, so you almost always use hybrid scheme: asymmetric scheme (ElGamal, for instance) for encrypting the symmetric key, and then a symmetric scheme (e.g. AES) for the bulk of the data.
Only in very exotic protocols such as digicash blind signatures or anonymous credentials with "algebraic MACs", you want your actual content encrypted directly via ElGamal or RSA, so that you can do some operations or proofs about the ciphertext — in those cases you can't encrypt symmetrically as that would erase all the algebraic relations.
Secondly, yes, asymmetric encryption is slower, so you almost always use hybrid scheme: asymmetric scheme (ElGamal, for instance) for encrypting the symmetric key, and then a symmetric scheme (e.g. AES) for the bulk of the data.
Only in very exotic protocols such as digicash blind signatures or anonymous credentials with "algebraic MACs", you want your actual content encrypted directly via ElGamal or RSA, so that you can do some operations or proofs about the ciphertext — in those cases you can't encrypt symmetrically as that would erase all the algebraic relations.
> First of all, we are talking about on-device decryption, so there is no difference in terms of security whether people extract a symmetric secret key or an asymmetric secret key.
Sure, but we might (potentially) be interested in the encryption part later on too, and having a symmetric key will make that easier (though of course it won't get you past any signature checks.
I've never come across those more exotic protocols, but I'm familiar with symmetric kex under public/private encryption.
Sure, but we might (potentially) be interested in the encryption part later on too, and having a symmetric key will make that easier (though of course it won't get you past any signature checks.
I've never come across those more exotic protocols, but I'm familiar with symmetric kex under public/private encryption.
For that reason, the usual trick is to use asymmetric encryption to protect a symmetric key (a fresh one per payload) that is then used for the actual payload. That way you get the speed of symmetric encryption with the benefits of asymmetric ones.
(Though evidently that's not what the PS5 uses here, otherwise it would be useless to read out one symmetric key).
And to add to that: you should use as many different symmetric keys as possible as long as asymmetric decryption of the key doesn't overly degrade performance.
As your sibling post technically notes, asymmetric vs symmetric is a wash, here. To use asymmetric encryption for saves, the PS5 would need to know the public and private keys, so you would be able to extract those and still have the same access.
Of course, there are still advantages to having the symmetric key not be used as is, but there are many solutions other than asymmetric encryption.
Of course, there are still advantages to having the symmetric key not be used as is, but there are many solutions other than asymmetric encryption.
The most common asymmetric encryption algorithm (RSA) can only encrypt a plaintext of limited size. Depending on padding scheme, a 2048 bit RSA key can encrypt a message of up to ~245 bytes.
Typically to securely encrypt a message you use symmetric key encryption. Then to allow a third party to decrypt that message, you encrypt the symmetric key using the third party's asymmetric key.
Typically to securely encrypt a message you use symmetric key encryption. Then to allow a third party to decrypt that message, you encrypt the symmetric key using the third party's asymmetric key.
AES can only encrypt a limited size too
Better translation from: [0]
> It means ultimately that decrypted firmware files will be available for hackers. This would make reverse engineering of the PS5 firmware possible, and from there, open possibilities for finding future exploits and/or write custom firmwares or Homebrew enablers.
[0] https://wololo.net/2021/11/08/ps5-exploit-fail0verflow-show-...
> It means ultimately that decrypted firmware files will be available for hackers. This would make reverse engineering of the PS5 firmware possible, and from there, open possibilities for finding future exploits and/or write custom firmwares or Homebrew enablers.
[0] https://wololo.net/2021/11/08/ps5-exploit-fail0verflow-show-...
> Fail0verflow have stated in the past that Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality
Interesting. I don't own a PS5, but Xbox seems to be pretty much a PC [1] (weeeell, like a Chromecast-style PC anyways). The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users, and to run emulators possibly.
It's interesting that the hacker communities acknowledge that the legitimate reasons for jailbreaking your PS5 are not many, at least not yet.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_4kiYvEmE
Interesting. I don't own a PS5, but Xbox seems to be pretty much a PC [1] (weeeell, like a Chromecast-style PC anyways). The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users, and to run emulators possibly.
It's interesting that the hacker communities acknowledge that the legitimate reasons for jailbreaking your PS5 are not many, at least not yet.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_4kiYvEmE
"I want to play pirated games" is a perfectly legitimate reason
This is the true reason that I feel like everybody are dancing around. Let's not lie to ourselves, hacking consoles in PS1, PS2 and DC era was for pirating games. Running unlicensed apps or linux was just a nice side effect of true goal. This days it's far less popular because of size, connectivity and prices of games.
That might be the true reason for the average person downloading it and jailbreaking their own system, but the dev side of the ps3 jailbreaking scene only really started in earnest when Sony patched out the OtherOS feature.
You couldn't run PS3 games via OtherOS, but hackers didn't care because running their own code really is all they care about.
You couldn't run PS3 games via OtherOS, but hackers didn't care because running their own code really is all they care about.
For some people your point will be valid. But there are a lot of people who hacked older consoles because:
+ They wanted to region unlock it (this is particularly true in Europe where there is a big demand for Japanese games that weren't released over here)
+ They wanted to run the console at 60hz rather than 50hz (this is true for the much older consoles and again mostly a thing in Europe because some PAL games would run slower than NTSC games. eg Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive)
+ Linux. This was a big incentive behind the PS3 cracks because of the PS3's interesting Cell Processor design. Later the removal of "Other OS" added to the incentive to jailbreak the PS3
+ Media Centres. The reason I've soft modded my Xboxes was to run XBMC
+ Retro gaming. Plenty of systems have been jailbroken so that their owners could play classic Nintendo / Sega / Atari / Amiga / NeoGeo games from the 80s and 90s. Technically it's still breaking copyright laws but given the age of those games some turn a blind eye because it isn't hurting the developers of new games (I'm not saying I agree with their argument either for or against, just presenting their views)
+ Some systems wouldn't allow you to play homebrew games (3rd party titles that are unlicensed from the console manufacturer but granted copyright licence by the games developer). So they're legal to play but the only way to do that was via hacking the console
+ Some jailbreak simply because they want to exercise their right to hack their own hardware. And this isn't just uber nerds either, I've met a surprising number of people who have done it just because they read an article somewhere and thought it sounded fun.
+ ...and yes, some do it to pirate modern games too. But the risk there is always that your device doesn't support future software updates and thus no longer supports modern games online. So it's a bit daft buying a console if you know you're going to pirate modern games; you're much better off with a PC (this was as true 15 years ago as it is now).
As it happens, I welcome the lack of DRM on the Sega CD because I have a few discs that are scratched and thus don't play properly. So I can keep the original discs and cases around but play CD-R copies. I can imagine needing this option more and more if/when disc rot sets in on my other disc-based retro consoles too.
+ They wanted to region unlock it (this is particularly true in Europe where there is a big demand for Japanese games that weren't released over here)
+ They wanted to run the console at 60hz rather than 50hz (this is true for the much older consoles and again mostly a thing in Europe because some PAL games would run slower than NTSC games. eg Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive)
+ Linux. This was a big incentive behind the PS3 cracks because of the PS3's interesting Cell Processor design. Later the removal of "Other OS" added to the incentive to jailbreak the PS3
+ Media Centres. The reason I've soft modded my Xboxes was to run XBMC
+ Retro gaming. Plenty of systems have been jailbroken so that their owners could play classic Nintendo / Sega / Atari / Amiga / NeoGeo games from the 80s and 90s. Technically it's still breaking copyright laws but given the age of those games some turn a blind eye because it isn't hurting the developers of new games (I'm not saying I agree with their argument either for or against, just presenting their views)
+ Some systems wouldn't allow you to play homebrew games (3rd party titles that are unlicensed from the console manufacturer but granted copyright licence by the games developer). So they're legal to play but the only way to do that was via hacking the console
+ Some jailbreak simply because they want to exercise their right to hack their own hardware. And this isn't just uber nerds either, I've met a surprising number of people who have done it just because they read an article somewhere and thought it sounded fun.
+ ...and yes, some do it to pirate modern games too. But the risk there is always that your device doesn't support future software updates and thus no longer supports modern games online. So it's a bit daft buying a console if you know you're going to pirate modern games; you're much better off with a PC (this was as true 15 years ago as it is now).
As it happens, I welcome the lack of DRM on the Sega CD because I have a few discs that are scratched and thus don't play properly. So I can keep the original discs and cases around but play CD-R copies. I can imagine needing this option more and more if/when disc rot sets in on my other disc-based retro consoles too.
In that era , for me, it was primarily to get around region encoding.
We didn't officially have PlayStation in our country (India) at the time. The only way to get original games instead of pirated ones was to import, usually when a friend was traveling. But region locking was a curse.
I'm so glad region locking is pretty much dead. I believe the 3DS was the last mainstream region locked console? Which again was ridiculous given its the one people would take when traveling.
We didn't officially have PlayStation in our country (India) at the time. The only way to get original games instead of pirated ones was to import, usually when a friend was traveling. But region locking was a curse.
I'm so glad region locking is pretty much dead. I believe the 3DS was the last mainstream region locked console? Which again was ridiculous given its the one people would take when traveling.
The 3DS also happens to have perhaps the most fruitful console homebrew scene in recent memory, having full on all-versions unpatchable exploits that are very simple to perform. I wonder if that's in some part the reason that Nintendo has moved away from region locking, given how absolutely trivial it was to bypass it on the 3DS.
Hacking them was easy if you wanted to pirate, but during that time I don't think its the only reason. The games were huge DSL wasn't around in the PS1 days, PS2 yeah it was, and so was DC, but PS1 was more for region locked games like imported Japanese games. Running PS2 games off the HDD if you bought that was way faster, it was a legitimate reason to want to hack it even if you bought games. The size doesn't matter if you just used a reader and copied the discs, the PS3 was easier to use the onboard bluray to copy so you could it off the HDD, but I used hacks to use other branded controllers on the PS3 like on the USB ports. PS3 was somewhat piracy related but otherOS and homebrew matters more than you think, being able to run emulators on xbone in developer mode was enough to keep it from being hacked since you can run emulators on it, while the PS4 was hacked. The PS5 hardware is very attractive in the GPU shortage, and has very decent hardware for the price too.
Most games are nowadays multi-platform (or can be emulated) and they play better on PC. I don't really see the point of consoles, they can't be upgraded and are mostly bricks outside of playing games destined to be e-waste at some point.
Well, If you look at both the PS5 and XBox One X, both of them are running customized AMD SoC's. But basically, that's just a AMD APU.
If my memory serves me correctly, the PS3 for comparison had a custom Cell CPU which was used for supercomputer clusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster So they must have had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs.
If my memory serves me correctly, the PS3 for comparison had a custom Cell CPU which was used for supercomputer clusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster So they must have had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs.
> had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs.
They did, but the Cell SPUs were hard to program and that edge quickly eroded as the Cell proved to be a dead end and x86 CPUs continued to evolve.
They did, but the Cell SPUs were hard to program and that edge quickly eroded as the Cell proved to be a dead end and x86 CPUs continued to evolve.
It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs. The original PS3 design didn't have a dedicated GPU (but, I believe, two Cells instead, one being dedicated to graphics rendering). A GPU was added as it became obvious that this design had a massive advantage over the Cell design.
> It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs.
That's not quite true. Every architecture iteration brought an increase in IPC, while every process improvement allowed for higher clocks and lower power dissipation. It's true that GPUs evolved a lot more - but that's mostly by getting bigger, wider, and having wider, faster pipes to its own RAM and the shared PCIe bus, as well as bigger heatsinks and fans.
That's not quite true. Every architecture iteration brought an increase in IPC, while every process improvement allowed for higher clocks and lower power dissipation. It's true that GPUs evolved a lot more - but that's mostly by getting bigger, wider, and having wider, faster pipes to its own RAM and the shared PCIe bus, as well as bigger heatsinks and fans.
The cell CPU was something like a dual core with 6 additional, specialised stream processors. I think the closest analogue might be a a CPU with a few cuda cores on the die?
It didn't work too well from my understanding, difficult to develop anything that could make use of those streaming cores that was worth it over a traditional multicore chip with more cores.
Useful for scientific community though.
If anyone knows what the spe cores were used for in games, I'd be very interested to know.
It didn't work too well from my understanding, difficult to develop anything that could make use of those streaming cores that was worth it over a traditional multicore chip with more cores.
Useful for scientific community though.
If anyone knows what the spe cores were used for in games, I'd be very interested to know.
The Cell was a single primary CPu core, with seven SPU (technically eight with one disabled) cores.
The SPU cores were basically used heavily for any background data processing that might align well with what GPU compute is used for today.
The SPU cores were basically used heavily for any background data processing that might align well with what GPU compute is used for today.
The primary core either had a twin or some sort of SMT going on, it presented to linux as two cores.
My understanding is that each SPE core was individually assigned to physics, lighting, AI and other tasks, as tools for developing multi-threaded code were not that common at the time. The Last of Us is supposed to be one of the very few that actually used all cores.
Heres a bunch of PDF's and presentations from Sony first party studios.
Naughty Dog - Uncharted - Pages 33 - 39, 49, 54 - https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd...
Gorilla Games - KillZone 2 SPU Case Study - All of it - https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides...
Insomniac Games - Insomniac’s SPU Best Practices Hard-won lessons we’re applying to a 3rd generation PS3 title Slides 46 - 48 https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-pract...
Naughty Dog - Uncharted - Pages 33 - 39, 49, 54 - https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd...
Gorilla Games - KillZone 2 SPU Case Study - All of it - https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides...
Insomniac Games - Insomniac’s SPU Best Practices Hard-won lessons we’re applying to a 3rd generation PS3 title Slides 46 - 48 https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-pract...
The last “interesting” PlayStation in that regard was the PS3. The 4 was just a PC. The contemporary Xbox also had an interesting CPU, also PPC ISA. All successors were mostly x86 PCs.
There may be some ARM fun in the future, as thermals are a huge thing now (the PS5 is mostly a heatsink with a computer attached and the newest Xbox is kind of a chimney).
There may be some ARM fun in the future, as thermals are a huge thing now (the PS5 is mostly a heatsink with a computer attached and the newest Xbox is kind of a chimney).
They are x86 APUs with a very powerful GPU and high memory bandwidth. Something you can not buy on the open market to use it as a PC so far.
I think LTT had some boards they bought from China that are very similar to the ps5 mainboard. PCB even looks nearly identical with the ring configuration of the layout.
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-b...
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-b...
That’s a good point. The 5 has about the same memory bandwidth of an M1 Max, which is something you’ll only find in 2-socket big Xeons (NUMA excepted), but the PS4 is on the same ballpark of a Threadripper Pro. Still, they are very much PCs with memory systems that are not available in general purpose boxes of the same price.
I remember, however, some benchmarks on motherboards with console CPUs that were somewhat disappointing because the GDDR6 memory has high bandwidth at a higher latency cost that the internal caches couldn’t hide.
Still, if you can tune your workload for it, it may be an interesting compute box.
I remember, however, some benchmarks on motherboards with console CPUs that were somewhat disappointing because the GDDR6 memory has high bandwidth at a higher latency cost that the internal caches couldn’t hide.
Still, if you can tune your workload for it, it may be an interesting compute box.
"just a PC" is a bit misleading. It's a x86 CPU, but the fail0verflow guys themselves do not call it a PC. From their talk on running Linux on a PS4:
https://youtu.be/-AoHGJ1g9aM?t=425
https://youtu.be/-AoHGJ1g9aM?t=425
> The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users
That was the PS3, through the OtherOS feature[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
That was the PS3, through the OtherOS feature[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
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But aren’t modern consoles generally pretty good PCs at comparatively low prices?
Sort of. When they came out, the specs were pretty good and the price was good. But supply shortages meant that realistically, you are paying more than RRP anyway.
And it’s not like you will be able to install windows on a ps5 and use it as a replacement PC even if it is theoretically possible.
And it’s not like you will be able to install windows on a ps5 and use it as a replacement PC even if it is theoretically possible.
Sure, but you might be able to install Linux for example.
No. Consoles aren't good general computing devices. But they are good at specific domains of computing.
Why not? A PS5 or whatever the current Xbox is have pretty much the same I/O as a SFF PC. Bunch of USB, HDMI, maybe DisplayPort (?), Ethernet. They have enough memory in this generation (16+ GB) to be quite useful machines. And they have GPUs which are roughly equal to a midrange card. The PS5 even has a standard M.2 slot. They're really just an SFF PC with heavily locked down software.
Because of all the little things they don't have: Keyboard and mouse, office suit. command line, etc. Sure you could probably solve all of those problems with enough time and money but you'd end up with something that's neither the same as the original console nor cheaper and easier to maintain than a mid-range laptop.
This is what general computing is about these days. Most consumer devices these days are powerful enough to do most general computing tasks. Even watches! But it's all the additional stuff you need to do to expose that power that prevents it from being a good general purpose device.
Whereas consoles are can be well suited in other domains outside of gaming even without installing additional peripherals nor hacking the OS.
This is what general computing is about these days. Most consumer devices these days are powerful enough to do most general computing tasks. Even watches! But it's all the additional stuff you need to do to expose that power that prevents it from being a good general purpose device.
Whereas consoles are can be well suited in other domains outside of gaming even without installing additional peripherals nor hacking the OS.
I don't use cracked games or SW but would like my game consoles jailbroken for general computing after they become obsolete i.e. no new games support them (or) no SW updates. A computer is a computer, anything which could be converted into a general computer is a win for me and for the environment.
> Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality
With around the same graphics power as a Radeon 5700xt/6700 card, with the whole PS5 system costing around the same as that card, a jailbroken console actually looks like pretty good value right now. If it could be broken enough to run a general purpose OS with acceleration enabled.
With around the same graphics power as a Radeon 5700xt/6700 card, with the whole PS5 system costing around the same as that card, a jailbroken console actually looks like pretty good value right now. If it could be broken enough to run a general purpose OS with acceleration enabled.
Cheap render farm?
If only people could obtain a Playstation 5 to go along with them.
I live in a third world country. What's funny is we have a lot of PlayStations and powerful video cards and top-level processors available. We just don't have any money to buy them. Maybe I should set up a mail-order business to serve Western hardware enthusiasts.
That’s a clever business idea. Governments will usually demand you register a company in order to be able to legally export them.
>Governments will usually demand you register a company in order to be able to legally export them.
Nah. As long as you don't sell many, you can get away with just marking as gift and putting a value of 20 USD on the package.
Nah. As long as you don't sell many, you can get away with just marking as gift and putting a value of 20 USD on the package.
... and when it gets lost you are unable to claim the insurance amount
Honestly, I wouldn't be concerned about that. Insurance is nothing more than free revenue for the carrier.
I'd send close to 500 packages a month to destinations all over the world, and tracked items almost never go missing.
For those that do go missing, it's always to a few hotspots that I would simply avoid if selling an item this valuable (pretty much just Brazil and South Africa now; Russia and Italy are much better than they used to be).
I'd send close to 500 packages a month to destinations all over the world, and tracked items almost never go missing.
For those that do go missing, it's always to a few hotspots that I would simply avoid if selling an item this valuable (pretty much just Brazil and South Africa now; Russia and Italy are much better than they used to be).
Send to China (Beijing)? Many of my packages have gone lost or got opened and stuff taken out. And yes, the value on the CN23 form is conclusive for the insurance amount you can claim on the CN24 form.
Require signing for packages and its a solved issue.
I'm sure customs officers around the world have never seen this trick before...
Oh, I'm sure they see it every single day, but nobody cares.
They're actually less likely to hassle you if you write a low value on the package - can literally shave a week+ off of delivery times.
Just fyi, doing so is actually tax fraud and very much illegal. Yes the chances of getting caught are incredibly small, but if you're doing this commercially then if caught not only you will have to pay ALL of the fees back + penalty, do it for long enough and there will be criminal charges involved.
So yes , "nobody cares" as long as you don't get caught.
So yes , "nobody cares" as long as you don't get caught.
Well... in my case low value on my package added a week to my delivery precisely because after seeing this trick once too many the customs are now checking everything.
I had to mail the sender (big US based company) to send me the correct invoice after the customs sent me the one they received.
I think you generalize too much... do you know how every customs office work?
Aaaaand this is why now even "$20 gifts" have to pay import taxes at the EU entry customs.
How much does an RTX 3080 Ti 12GB cost in your country?
Not the OP, but in India, the lowest priced one I could find was from ASUS, which costs around $2600. I don't think the vanilla RTX 3080Ti is available here yet. The most expensive one was from MSI which costs around $3200. Whereas PS5 (official price i.e. without considering the shortages) costs $675.
What currency is that in?
I suppose OP is specifying USD. Currency in India would be INR for India.
I converted the Indian Rupee to USD while writing that comment. So the prices mentioned in my comment are in USD.
Apologies for the late response. I was joking actually, we really do have a major surplus of hardware, but the prices we pay are insane, and have always been so. I built my PC back in 2015 and paid about two times more what I would have paid if I lived in the US.
I ordered a lot of stuff from the US throughout the years. It takes at least a month to get here, and shipping costs from $50 (for the smallest items like Kindles), to $150-200.
So it's not really practical.
Looking at retail:
— the cheapest 3080 Ti 12GB I see is around $2500, the most expensive one is $3200 (there are 10 models in total).
— PS5: from $1000 to $1350
— 3080: from $2000 and up.
If you have the right connections you can get them individually with bulk prices, but it's not easy to do because of pervasive corruption.
I ordered a lot of stuff from the US throughout the years. It takes at least a month to get here, and shipping costs from $50 (for the smallest items like Kindles), to $150-200.
So it's not really practical.
Looking at retail:
— the cheapest 3080 Ti 12GB I see is around $2500, the most expensive one is $3200 (there are 10 models in total).
— PS5: from $1000 to $1350
— 3080: from $2000 and up.
If you have the right connections you can get them individually with bulk prices, but it's not easy to do because of pervasive corruption.
How much does a PS5 or 3080 go for in your neck of the globe?
Oops, sorry. See here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29148838
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29148838
You missed the boat on the PS5, unfortunately.
They're selling for A$750 on the secondary market now - same as what they cost in regular stores.
(Unless Australia also has an oversupply...)
(Unless Australia also has an oversupply...)
While I can't judge how good your plan is, FWIW I've often regretted saying 'maybe' when later I realized it would've worked, or at least been worth trying. But then it was no longer a good idea...
Third world countries usually have very heavy import and sales taxes as the corrupt elites prefer to tax consumption than income, wealth or inheritance.
In Brazil, for example, all tech costs for the consumer in dollars at least twice what it costs for the American consumer due to 60% import tax plus some variable 18 to 30% sales tax (similar but not the same as a VAT). Factor in freight and the fact those items are in practice luxury goods with the importer expecting high margins and the scenario is complete for absurd price increases
What do you mean ? Here in Hong Kong (hardly the west), an RTX 3080 is around 1000 USD, how much is it where you are ?
New RTX 3080 sell on US eBay for US$1500-1600. RTX 3080 Ti for $2000. <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-pricing-index>
Well, I'd be a customer.
If you look at sales chart, Sony is selling as many PS5 as they sold PS4 during the same launch period. It's just that demand is higher; the fact that they are able to make as much during a chip shortage says a lot of their supply chain expertise (same could be said of MS, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, Apple etc.).
Expertise being a euphemism for relationships to skip the queue.
Relationships, knowledge and ability to long-term bulk-buy in order to skip the queue. Suppliers want to work with customers who they know will be large customers in 5 years time and not just some random bloke who rocks up and tries to buy 30 chips on a Tuesday.
It's true, it's heavily unfair that the tech giants have better access to manufacturing, etc. And while I 100% agree with @scott_w's sibling comment, this not even the only factor.
How many people do you think they have dedicated only to supply chain management ? This is such a wide domain, we don't see it all from here: they have engineers dedicated to sourcing, to manufacturing, testing, evaluating new sources; people in charge of a given supplier; people in charge of the various type of transport, of recycling, etc. All this is in-house expertise, and definitely gives them an edge.
If you look at most big auto manufacturers; they too are suffering from shortages. So it seems tech giants must be doing something better.
How many people do you think they have dedicated only to supply chain management ? This is such a wide domain, we don't see it all from here: they have engineers dedicated to sourcing, to manufacturing, testing, evaluating new sources; people in charge of a given supplier; people in charge of the various type of transport, of recycling, etc. All this is in-house expertise, and definitely gives them an edge.
If you look at most big auto manufacturers; they too are suffering from shortages. So it seems tech giants must be doing something better.
Here in Australia we put our names on a waiting list at one of the big name retailers, just by walking into the store. About a week later we got a call that there was stock.
So while the stock doesn't hang around, it seems like it is now at least possible to get one without too much fuss.
So while the stock doesn't hang around, it seems like it is now at least possible to get one without too much fuss.
EB Games Australia have just announced that people on the pre-order list for PS5 won't receive their consoles until some time in 2022. You massively underestimate the high demand/low supply for this console.
https://press-start.com.au/news/playstation/2021/11/08/eb-ga...
https://press-start.com.au/news/playstation/2021/11/08/eb-ga...
Then I can only recommend walking into JB Hi-Fi in the Carousel shopping centre in Cannington and asking to go on their list.
Worked for us, we really weren't expecting it. We were even given a choice of which version of the console we wanted, at the point they got the delivery in.
(Maybe things have got worse in the last month? Maybe WA is special...)
Worked for us, we really weren't expecting it. We were even given a choice of which version of the console we wanted, at the point they got the delivery in.
(Maybe things have got worse in the last month? Maybe WA is special...)
It really varies with markets. In UK it's pretty hard(although over the last year I've managed to help several of my friends buy one, it's just a matter of setting up discord notifications), in Poland they are easily available, you can just walk into a store and buy one no problem. Or several places have stock available for delivery. No big deal.
For instance https://m.euro.com.pl/konsole-playstation-5/sony-playstation...
It says "up to 7 days delivery" but when I ordered one few weeks ago it arrived next day anyway.
For instance https://m.euro.com.pl/konsole-playstation-5/sony-playstation...
It says "up to 7 days delivery" but when I ordered one few weeks ago it arrived next day anyway.
Yes, its available at x2 MSRP
No? If you're talking about the link I posted - 3300pln is about £600, and it includes two games and a controller. So MSRP of the console itself at £449 + 2x games at £50 + 1x controller at £50 = £600.
[deleted]
Plenty of people in this thread, including your parent post, have found it at around MSRP.
Parent linked >$800 console
Why would you reply to this comment instead of the one where I broke down the price into core components showing that no, it's not over MSRP at all??????
How about I buy this console and you will take 2 games and the pad from me for $350 then?
Do they not have bundles where you live? I just don't understand why you're so offended by the concept. The deal I posted is at MSRP, if the things bundled with the console are worth 0 to you then that's on you I'm afraid.
Would you like a brand new RTX 3090 at MSRP? Ill sell you one right now $1,499 no questions asked. Oh by the way, it comes bundled with 3 PS3 Madden games and a banana, $4500 in total.
If those Madden games and a banana are worth $3000 then of course, yes, but your comparison makes zero sense because those items aren't worth that much, neither in retail nor in resale. For some crazy reason you are assigning value of zero to the controller and those two bundled games, which is just simply and logically not true - at MSRP, at retail prices, the value of all items adds up to the price being asked. Again, you are behaving as if you've never seen a bundle before.
In your example, it's like if you were selling an RTX3900 bundled with a PS5 for $2000 - is that over MSRP, or not? What a riddle!
In your example, it's like if you were selling an RTX3900 bundled with a PS5 for $2000 - is that over MSRP, or not? What a riddle!
My guess is that they're confusing the MSRP in their country (probably United States, apparently $499) with the MSRP in Poland (apparently about US $832).
> Fail0verflow have stated in the past that Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality
They're right, its just a PC now. Its crazy, I can't think of anyone who wants a console that has a rough computer equivalent of a Ryzen 7 3700X, 5700 RT with ray tracing, shares 16GB GDDR6 ram, a blu-ray drive, with a 1GB NVME drive for $500+tax (in store stock and not scalped, and even scalped at $900 its not easy to match PC hardware). Who wants to hack such a device for legitimate reasons like using it as a computer? Nobody, its not worth it!
They're right, its just a PC now. Its crazy, I can't think of anyone who wants a console that has a rough computer equivalent of a Ryzen 7 3700X, 5700 RT with ray tracing, shares 16GB GDDR6 ram, a blu-ray drive, with a 1GB NVME drive for $500+tax (in store stock and not scalped, and even scalped at $900 its not easy to match PC hardware). Who wants to hack such a device for legitimate reasons like using it as a computer? Nobody, its not worth it!
> They're right, its just a PC now. Its crazy, I can't think of anyone who wants a console that has a rough computer equivalent of a Ryzen 7 3700X, 5700 RT with ray tracing, shares 16GB GDDR6 ram, a blu-ray drive, with a 1GB NVME drive for $500 (in stock and not scalped).
The way I view it is as paying a subscription for support, I bought a PS4 at launch and the fact it can play the newest Call of Duty at 60fps looking decent is absolutely worth the price. I'm not a PC gamer so I'm curious if a PC from 2013 that cost like $400 would hold up as well.
Now the PS5 is out I view it as time to pay the next sub of $500 to have a guaranteed level of performance for the next console cycle
The way I view it is as paying a subscription for support, I bought a PS4 at launch and the fact it can play the newest Call of Duty at 60fps looking decent is absolutely worth the price. I'm not a PC gamer so I'm curious if a PC from 2013 that cost like $400 would hold up as well.
Now the PS5 is out I view it as time to pay the next sub of $500 to have a guaranteed level of performance for the next console cycle
You are paying for support in terms of the higher cost of the games, being locked to one online store and only approved playable games they allow, not being able to move it to another console generation, no replacable parts. A good PC in 2013 would have been 1.3x more expensive at launch (today it would be way more expensive to build a PS5 equivalent) but a PC would be able to play games better than a PS4 Pro (it is locked for GTA5 at 1080/30fps, while PC is always unlocked), have more graphics options, populate the streets with more NPCs, and tons of external niceties such as mods, you can use the PC for playing old games and emulators too. You can get 60FPS on desktop or more any time if you lowered the graphics like they do for consoles like PS4, but even the equivalent PC GPU runs a better than 30FPS at 1080. https://www.userbenchmark.com/PCGame/FPS-Estimates-Grand-The...
At the same time, I don't really recommend building a fancy gaming PC, most games are not exciting and having an APU for playing fun older games makes the most sense to me, I used my GPUs way more before, but since 2017 for Prey I haven't felt like I cared for them since I care to play AoE II and Starcraft more, and new games that are exciting are all indie, and don't need good graphics like into the breach, or Factorio don't exist on console. The PS store irritates me because they resell to me the same games again except on a different console, PC just runs everything. Heres the performance of an 3400G APU ($150 CPU+GPU on one chip. You can also upgrade the hardware if you see a good deal, unlike a PS4 where you'd have to buy a completely new one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0p5fbW5odY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxPtHuyPJo
I think you should consider a low end PC for gaming, its got tons of cool stuff you can run, they even cloned PS3's PT, you aren't getting better support for gaming by buying a console. https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/2/17519118/pt-remake-windows-...
At the same time, I don't really recommend building a fancy gaming PC, most games are not exciting and having an APU for playing fun older games makes the most sense to me, I used my GPUs way more before, but since 2017 for Prey I haven't felt like I cared for them since I care to play AoE II and Starcraft more, and new games that are exciting are all indie, and don't need good graphics like into the breach, or Factorio don't exist on console. The PS store irritates me because they resell to me the same games again except on a different console, PC just runs everything. Heres the performance of an 3400G APU ($150 CPU+GPU on one chip. You can also upgrade the hardware if you see a good deal, unlike a PS4 where you'd have to buy a completely new one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0p5fbW5odY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxPtHuyPJo
I think you should consider a low end PC for gaming, its got tons of cool stuff you can run, they even cloned PS3's PT, you aren't getting better support for gaming by buying a console. https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/2/17519118/pt-remake-windows-...
A bit confused. Are you saying the hardware is cheap and for the same price, better hardware can be purchased?
Been a long while since I built a PC.
Been a long while since I built a PC.
The poster above is saying that the hardware in a PS5 is very cheap compared to building a PC with those specs. just getting a graphics card with the same sort of power as a PS5 is likely to cost more than a PS5 right now.
Its a bargain, heavily subsidized by Sony who expects to earn it back (and more) on games & subscriptions. You can't put together PC with similar specs for this price, more like for double.
On top of that, you can't get various PC components easily right now due to chip shortage. With PS5, you're getting it all in a 100% working box.
On top of that, you can't get various PC components easily right now due to chip shortage. With PS5, you're getting it all in a 100% working box.
playstation 5, not yet obtained!
as in, i haven’t been able to buy one. its a joke mfrs, chill
You're being downvoted because you're not contributing anything at all to the discussion. It's a lowest of the low effort sort of comment. If we tolerated that then, by the very nature of requiring little effort, they would quickly drown out substantive comments.
I appreciate the effort on that response, and it’s tone, but you describe a joyless situation filled with people without a sense of humor, so even if you’re right that’s quite depressing.
I sincerely hope the first thing someone does, is create an unofficial patch to allow people to use old third-party (and first-party) joypads. Locking down which joypads you can use seemed like a mean spirited move from Sony.
While not impossible, this seems like a huge amount of work for an independent developer. I don’t think any old controller is plug and play as soon as you remove one if clause disabling them, there’s probably a significant amount of work involved in getting them to work.
Is Sony prepared for such an event or some sort of irreversible damage is done as a console?
What do you mean “prepared”? If you break your hardware by installing custom software on it, that has never been covered by your warranty (although companies may still replace the hardware out of good will or being incapable of detecting the modification).
Meaning, can they fix the issue by just updating the console remotely and not fixable by believing it should never leak?
Easier to get than an actual PS5, apparently
Are consoles cheaper “per transistor” or sth? If so, why? Is it about the vendor locking you in and charging more per game? That would seem even more skewed against the buyer: buy this pseudo-pc so we can sell you expensive, limited-choice software.