Getting hired after fifty(aarp.org)
aarp.org
Getting hired after fifty
https://www.aarp.org/work/job-search/getting-hired-after-50/
293 comments
There's few other negative responses to your comment, but there's plenty of research linking physical fitness with mental improvement. I recently went from morbidly obese to quite fit and even as a younger person I noticed a significant improvement in my cognitive abilities. I'm just less tired, less foggy, able to think for longer periods of time with less fatigue. It's been quite a nice side benefit.
Of course some people are unable to remain fit, but many more simply choose not to prioritize it. I suspect it the vitality you demonstrate helps sell your "brand", and also just helps you to be better than you would be otherwise.
Of course some people are unable to remain fit, but many more simply choose not to prioritize it. I suspect it the vitality you demonstrate helps sell your "brand", and also just helps you to be better than you would be otherwise.
Yeah it helps to get hired, HR likes it, but the team hates you because they think you are a goody two-shoes who is ruining the party by turning down donuts and beer, and making people feel bad about being unfit.
The average IT office is really not a sporty place, and people also really don't like if you dress well either. It makes people feel threatened and annoyed.
What people like is for you to be a partner in crime in neglecting your health, having no self control, making self deprecating jokes and join them in unhealthy activities so they can feel less responsible for it.
People save their best self for free time and social life, where it actually scores some points, and show their less positive side in the workplace, and that's a bit of an unspoken rule that you're supposed to really relax at work.
The average IT office is really not a sporty place, and people also really don't like if you dress well either. It makes people feel threatened and annoyed.
What people like is for you to be a partner in crime in neglecting your health, having no self control, making self deprecating jokes and join them in unhealthy activities so they can feel less responsible for it.
People save their best self for free time and social life, where it actually scores some points, and show their less positive side in the workplace, and that's a bit of an unspoken rule that you're supposed to really relax at work.
I don't know where you work/worked, but those were some seriously messed up places.
I have never encountered such ridiculous jealousy in an American workplace. If anything, I feel like people end up assuming a person is more athletic than they really are, leading to some funny conversations and questions.
[deleted]
> Personally, I think this gives me a giant advantage in my age cohort where most men waddle around like they are 11 months pregnant and you can hear their breathing from 60 feet away. I hear a lot of guys in this category counting down the days till retirement.
I guess I'd want to know where you live. Weight has turned into something of a class marker in the modern US.
I am 66, I could stand to lose maybe ten pounds, but am not overweight on the BMI scale. I run on the weekend, walk then and otherwise a fair bit. Most of the men in my neighborhood that I suppose to be of roughly my age seem to be in fair condition.
I guess I'd want to know where you live. Weight has turned into something of a class marker in the modern US.
I am 66, I could stand to lose maybe ten pounds, but am not overweight on the BMI scale. I run on the weekend, walk then and otherwise a fair bit. Most of the men in my neighborhood that I suppose to be of roughly my age seem to be in fair condition.
I’m also a photographer, though I’m in my 30s. I frequently run in to other local photographers at a nearby state park. One in particular is so overweight she can’t crouch down, so she just uses live view and holds the camera as low as she can.
I’ve seen another do basically an entire session in the parking lot on a beautiful fall day. It was clear she wouldn’t be up for going on even a mild hike to the prettier locations.
I stay in shape with a standing desk snd walking treadmill. Editing photos isn’t exactly mentally taxing so it’s pretty damned easy to do.
I’ve seen another do basically an entire session in the parking lot on a beautiful fall day. It was clear she wouldn’t be up for going on even a mild hike to the prettier locations.
I stay in shape with a standing desk snd walking treadmill. Editing photos isn’t exactly mentally taxing so it’s pretty damned easy to do.
Personally, I think this gives me a giant advantage in my age cohort where most men waddle around like they are 11 months pregnant and you can hear their breathing from 60 feet away.
Of course you do. We all tend to think that we're living the right way (obviously, else we'd change). It's not really possible to evaluate whether you are actually living the right way by looking at things from your own reference frame though.
For what it's worth, I'm a bit overweight, I don't exercise much, and yet I don't seem to have trouble finding a job. In my current role I've never met anyone in the company I work for except over video calls. They have no idea what my level of fitness is, or how fat I am, or even how tall I am. Maybe I'd be better off if I went for a run more than three times a year, but I'm unlikely to ever find out.
Of course you do. We all tend to think that we're living the right way (obviously, else we'd change). It's not really possible to evaluate whether you are actually living the right way by looking at things from your own reference frame though.
For what it's worth, I'm a bit overweight, I don't exercise much, and yet I don't seem to have trouble finding a job. In my current role I've never met anyone in the company I work for except over video calls. They have no idea what my level of fitness is, or how fat I am, or even how tall I am. Maybe I'd be better off if I went for a run more than three times a year, but I'm unlikely to ever find out.
You can easily tell a person’s fitness level just from face
>Of course you do. We all tend to think that we're living the right way (obviously, else we'd change).//
Do you think so? I'd imagine most people are like me and echo St Paul's position of (paraphrasing) "I do what I wish I didn't and don't do what I wish I did".
I guess you're able to always summon the motivation to make for any activity you wish, but I suspect that is very rare.
Do you think so? I'd imagine most people are like me and echo St Paul's position of (paraphrasing) "I do what I wish I didn't and don't do what I wish I did".
I guess you're able to always summon the motivation to make for any activity you wish, but I suspect that is very rare.
There are plenty of studies showing overweight people are discriminated against.
> Personally, I think this gives me a giant advantage in my age cohort where most men waddle around like they are 11 months pregnant and you can hear their breathing from 60 feet away. I hear a lot of guys in this category counting down the days till retirement.
Thanks to remote work. I have switched few jobs during covid. WFH interviews are awesome.
Thanks to remote work. I have switched few jobs during covid. WFH interviews are awesome.
You don’t need to spend a lot of time working out. I highly recommend reading “Body by Science”. It is a big eye opener.
This is awesome! Haha
I find this attitude to be enormously, fatuously ableist. "We have control over fitness" except when we don't.
Many people live with restrictive medical conditions that limit or prevent any level of "hard" exercise. Those conditions are certainly not of their choosing, and the underlying implication that those people are "guilty" of a lack of "discipline and intellect" is offensive and deprecating. The unfortunate fact is that such conditions become increasingly likely as we all age, becoming a near certainty for most people as they approach and pass 60.
That the parent commenter has evidently managed to avoid (thus far) that sort of misfortune is wonderful for them. But it shouldn't be used to demean or belittle those who have not enjoyed that good fortune.
Many people live with restrictive medical conditions that limit or prevent any level of "hard" exercise. Those conditions are certainly not of their choosing, and the underlying implication that those people are "guilty" of a lack of "discipline and intellect" is offensive and deprecating. The unfortunate fact is that such conditions become increasingly likely as we all age, becoming a near certainty for most people as they approach and pass 60.
That the parent commenter has evidently managed to avoid (thus far) that sort of misfortune is wonderful for them. But it shouldn't be used to demean or belittle those who have not enjoyed that good fortune.
Many people do have conditions that restrict their ability to exercise and stay fit. However, in the US, the vast majority of people in poor physical shape have no such condition except for those caused by being overweight in the first place.
He's saying to exercise and eat healthy. He's not saying run a marathon every month.
He's saying to exercise and eat healthy. He's not saying run a marathon every month.
Where did they demean those that weren’t able to stay fit? Not only does that seem like a small subset of people, but they’re obviously not the target of GP’s comment.
I see your comment as doing way more assuming. You’re policing the most basic health advice on account that it might not apply to everyone. Obviously.
I see your comment as doing way more assuming. You’re policing the most basic health advice on account that it might not apply to everyone. Obviously.
I think it's fair to assume that gp meant "control over fitness" .. within physical capabilities.
The ability of a person (regardless of age) to manage their physiological or psychological limitations, against their capacity to do good or great things, is demonstrative of their ability to handle more complex situations in an executive or creative context, and is capably reflected in their demeanor on both video and audio interview calls. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Out of all of the 60-70 year olds I know, I can’t think of one that has a condition that prevents them from exercising.
Also, the fact that you’re typing is ableist - think of the poor people without fingers that are also mute so they can’t use text to speech.
If we can’t talk in generalities then we can’t talk at all.
Also, the fact that you’re typing is ableist - think of the poor people without fingers that are also mute so they can’t use text to speech.
If we can’t talk in generalities then we can’t talk at all.
[for the record, I'm 58 & and an active software developer]
There are two points I'd like to add:
My brain isn't as elastic as a younger programmer's. My brother, a software developer close to my age, once said, "It's as if I used to have 20 registers, and now I'm down to 12". I can't keep as much in my head as once. My twenty-something co-worker, Belinda, once remarked, "It takes you a while to read code & understand what it's doing". She was right. Using solely that metric (elasticity), I'd have to say that the forty-year-old version of myself was faster than the fifty-eight-year-old version.
The other point I'd like to make is that there's a certain class of developer who has grown tired of developing & learning new skills, but doesn't want to retire. I remember my co-worker Larry would spend far too much time reminiscing about 640k computers and showing pictures of his grand kids. He didn't seem to want to work much. They let him go, and though I liked him personally, I think management made the right decision.
There are two points I'd like to add:
My brain isn't as elastic as a younger programmer's. My brother, a software developer close to my age, once said, "It's as if I used to have 20 registers, and now I'm down to 12". I can't keep as much in my head as once. My twenty-something co-worker, Belinda, once remarked, "It takes you a while to read code & understand what it's doing". She was right. Using solely that metric (elasticity), I'd have to say that the forty-year-old version of myself was faster than the fifty-eight-year-old version.
The other point I'd like to make is that there's a certain class of developer who has grown tired of developing & learning new skills, but doesn't want to retire. I remember my co-worker Larry would spend far too much time reminiscing about 640k computers and showing pictures of his grand kids. He didn't seem to want to work much. They let him go, and though I liked him personally, I think management made the right decision.
I am soon-to-be 44.
I felt the same process creeping on me in my late 30s. Since then, I started experimenting with some OTC drugs (to be concrete: Nicotinamide Riboside, Pterostilbene and Spermidine). It is my impression that the effect has largely gone away. People that I meet after a long time tend to remark that I am noticeably more energetic, too.
A combination of NR and Pterostilbene under the name EH301 was recently trialled in Spain for treatment of ALS (yes, that ALS) with remarkably good results [0], though the study was small. A much bigger study is now underway in Norway [1]. If this combo can influence a neurodegenerative disease positively, it may help the brain in general.
But I do not want to sound as a huckster for both. This is a huge if and it is possible that I am just another case of a placebo effect.
[0] https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/small-trial-eh30...
[1] https://ichgcp.net/clinical-trials-registry/NCT04562831
I felt the same process creeping on me in my late 30s. Since then, I started experimenting with some OTC drugs (to be concrete: Nicotinamide Riboside, Pterostilbene and Spermidine). It is my impression that the effect has largely gone away. People that I meet after a long time tend to remark that I am noticeably more energetic, too.
A combination of NR and Pterostilbene under the name EH301 was recently trialled in Spain for treatment of ALS (yes, that ALS) with remarkably good results [0], though the study was small. A much bigger study is now underway in Norway [1]. If this combo can influence a neurodegenerative disease positively, it may help the brain in general.
But I do not want to sound as a huckster for both. This is a huge if and it is possible that I am just another case of a placebo effect.
[0] https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/small-trial-eh30...
[1] https://ichgcp.net/clinical-trials-registry/NCT04562831
I'm 44 and don't feel in any way that I need performance enhancing cognitive drugs in order to program effectively.
It's great that you guys are being honest. But it's a shame that the top of the thread is dominated by comments that reinforce ageism.
It's great that you guys are being honest. But it's a shame that the top of the thread is dominated by comments that reinforce ageism.
Agree,
(Also late 40s)
I tend to find it more of a mental stretch to understand what the young ones don’t yet understand and can’t see clearly.
It’s e.g. quite satisfying seeing someone has a bit of a blind spot with understanding handling async code and then being able to point him to the direction to mastering it.
It feels a bit like having on-script glasses in a world where everyone is myopic to some degree.
That said, I’m probably working with too many juniors - a stint with more intermediate/seniors might give me a more humble/humbling report.
(Also late 40s)
I tend to find it more of a mental stretch to understand what the young ones don’t yet understand and can’t see clearly.
It’s e.g. quite satisfying seeing someone has a bit of a blind spot with understanding handling async code and then being able to point him to the direction to mastering it.
It feels a bit like having on-script glasses in a world where everyone is myopic to some degree.
That said, I’m probably working with too many juniors - a stint with more intermediate/seniors might give me a more humble/humbling report.
I never thought I'd see the day when someone recommends performance enhancing drugs to stay competitive as a software developer.
TBH I wasn't interested in them for my development skills. I was more interested in general effects of NAD+ precursor supplementation. I sometimes hang out with the longevity crowd and try out methods that do not sound too dangerous (intermittent fasting etc.)
Not really drugs. Supplements that the nootropics community are pushing. They might work and they might not - there's not a lot of double-blind studies on these things yet. The ones that have been done show mixed results.
The software engineering jobs you get in your 40s and 50s pay more than most NBA of NFL players will every make.
Median salary of nfl player is about 850k. Minimum salary of a rookie is 435k. NBA median is 3.8 million. Minimum is 925k
Please tell me where I can make this type of money as a software engineer.
I'm guessing they meant lifetime earnings. There's a limited number of years you can play competitively in the NFL/NBA, and not all of them successfully transition to the sports desk or small business owner.
Finance in NYC
How so?
By "most players" you mean excluding the very top, right?
By "most players" you mean excluding the very top, right?
And the bottom too.
Not everywhere.
Your thought process also becomes more advanced and include more parameters, as you become more experienced, so it can be slower also because of that.
Notice how doctors say "levels are fine for your age" for various hormones. For whatever reason them declining is considered normal so nothing should be done about it.
What if you are 60 and want to have the muscle strength, metabolism and/or mental acuity of a 40 year old? Turns out, it's possible! You just use the same hormones (or analogues) from external sources.
The downside seems to be a shorter lifespan, but there's been no major studies on it. However, it makes sense - you push your body harder.
I think quality of life:length of life should be left up to the individual. I'm sure many will choose a more active life up to 75-80 years than a slower one up to 90+.
My grandparents and their brothers/sisters basically did nothing after 70ish. Just literally waited to die, too bored and/or tired to do anything more. One of my grandfathers just drank for 15 years until he died. My remaining grandmother is 84 and still doing gardenwork, but otherwise she says "eh, I'm ready anytime".
Length of life should not be as important as it seems to be today. Quality matters, too, for some people - even more.
What if you are 60 and want to have the muscle strength, metabolism and/or mental acuity of a 40 year old? Turns out, it's possible! You just use the same hormones (or analogues) from external sources.
The downside seems to be a shorter lifespan, but there's been no major studies on it. However, it makes sense - you push your body harder.
I think quality of life:length of life should be left up to the individual. I'm sure many will choose a more active life up to 75-80 years than a slower one up to 90+.
My grandparents and their brothers/sisters basically did nothing after 70ish. Just literally waited to die, too bored and/or tired to do anything more. One of my grandfathers just drank for 15 years until he died. My remaining grandmother is 84 and still doing gardenwork, but otherwise she says "eh, I'm ready anytime".
Length of life should not be as important as it seems to be today. Quality matters, too, for some people - even more.
> Notice how doctors say "levels are fine for your age" for various hormones. For whatever reason them declining is considered normal so nothing should be done about it.
We're trying to do a lot of this about this, all the time. There's a ton of research into aging.
But we can't just do what politicians do and do stuff, nilly-willy, hoping something sticks. In many cases the cure is worse than the disease.
We're trying to do a lot of this about this, all the time. There's a ton of research into aging.
But we can't just do what politicians do and do stuff, nilly-willy, hoping something sticks. In many cases the cure is worse than the disease.
You know, I'm hitting that point now myself. How do you find trusted supplement providers?
So for Pterostilbene, I used a German brand Hepatica which seems to have a good reputation. (I live next to Germany.)
Spermidine is so cheap and easy to manufacture that I doubt that there are fake products out there; yet another German company (Green Naturals.)
As for NR, I chose Tru Niagen (ChromaDex), a well-known brand. It is expensive, though. By far the most expensive of the three supplements.
Spermidine is so cheap and easy to manufacture that I doubt that there are fake products out there; yet another German company (Green Naturals.)
As for NR, I chose Tru Niagen (ChromaDex), a well-known brand. It is expensive, though. By far the most expensive of the three supplements.
I'm curious. Can I ask how you encountered these compounds and what made you try them? Articles/Research, credible recommendations from trusted sources? That kind of thing.
Interesting - I was looking into sirtuin boosters mostly from the longevity science point of view, how did you decide between NR (Nicotinamide Riboside) and NAD boosters.
And how long did you do it to notice effects?
And how long did you do it to notice effects?
I'm also 58 and still mostly active in software development. I say "mostly" because I did give early retirement a try - it lasted about 2 years and then my current job came along, looked really interesting and here I am.
It's not just my brain that's not as elastic - my body isn't so elastic anymore either. I can't sit for more than an hour or so before I've gotta get up and take a foam-roller break. Lots of aches and pains that I'm finding are causing me to lose focus.
After ~2 years of not working I found that I didn't much care for it - I needed more purpose or something. Just felt like I was floating along not going anywhere. I think the happy medium would be to work 3 days/week. I could do that indefinitely. Not really be retired and not really be working full time. It would work monetarily as well since the house is nearly paid off and we have no other debt. But software development gigs where you only work 24hrs/week seem to be quite rare.
It's not just my brain that's not as elastic - my body isn't so elastic anymore either. I can't sit for more than an hour or so before I've gotta get up and take a foam-roller break. Lots of aches and pains that I'm finding are causing me to lose focus.
After ~2 years of not working I found that I didn't much care for it - I needed more purpose or something. Just felt like I was floating along not going anywhere. I think the happy medium would be to work 3 days/week. I could do that indefinitely. Not really be retired and not really be working full time. It would work monetarily as well since the house is nearly paid off and we have no other debt. But software development gigs where you only work 24hrs/week seem to be quite rare.
I left Facebook shortly after they abandoned their own plans for a 3-day-week pilot scheme which I'd been very eager to join. Someone I'd worked with before was now head of engineering at a reasonable-sized tech company, and was willing to give the 3-day week plan a try for me.
This was right at the start of 2020, and only working 3 days a week definitely helped me avoid pandemic burnout. But unfortunately I ended up working the 3 days that had the most meetings (this was a double-sided effect - it made sense to work those days else I'd miss important meetings, and then important meetings that included me gravitated to those days). So I ended up with 3 days that were stuffed full of meetings.
This was unpleasant enough that when the division was sold to another company, I opted not to take the transfer (and staying with the old company wasn't an option, as part of the terms of the acquisition deal). I'm now doing some flexi-time consulting that, while not as lucrative, gives a lot more latitude for scheduling my time.
This was right at the start of 2020, and only working 3 days a week definitely helped me avoid pandemic burnout. But unfortunately I ended up working the 3 days that had the most meetings (this was a double-sided effect - it made sense to work those days else I'd miss important meetings, and then important meetings that included me gravitated to those days). So I ended up with 3 days that were stuffed full of meetings.
This was unpleasant enough that when the division was sold to another company, I opted not to take the transfer (and staying with the old company wasn't an option, as part of the terms of the acquisition deal). I'm now doing some flexi-time consulting that, while not as lucrative, gives a lot more latitude for scheduling my time.
I guess I should clarify that this wasn't the only reason I didn't take the acquisition transfer - it really wasn't clear that the acquirers knew what to do with the large number of smart people that they were basically acqui-hiring. But the heavy concentration of meetings caused by the 3-day week did influence my decision.
I have a close friend who had a win from a startup acquisition at 38 paired with just saving his money. He had a similar experience to you with retiring.
He said it took him 6 months to realize that he didn't have to work anymore. After about two years he ended up getting married and starting a family and can't see himself ever going back to working.
My dad on the other hand worked a normal job and retired at 60, told me it took him about 6 months to accept that he didn't have to work anymore either. As funny as it sounds, I think it just takes time to get used to not working.
He said it took him 6 months to realize that he didn't have to work anymore. After about two years he ended up getting married and starting a family and can't see himself ever going back to working.
My dad on the other hand worked a normal job and retired at 60, told me it took him about 6 months to accept that he didn't have to work anymore either. As funny as it sounds, I think it just takes time to get used to not working.
Your comments are treating work as some sort of dichotomy. It doesn't exist. There are several reasons to want full-time employment:
- Purpose (do something good in the world)
- Mental challenge
- Physical challenge
- Meet people
- Earn money
- Daily routine
- etc.
Full-time employment is a popular way to get these desires satisfied, but it's far from the only way.
For example, if I would take a sabbatical right now, earning money or meeting people would not be an immediate problem. However, I would miss the mental challenge and doing something good for the world. So I'd likely take up open source contribution. I'd probably do quite a lot of it -- several hours per day. Is it work? No, I don't think people would call it that. Does it do for me many of the things work does for me? Yeah.
- Purpose (do something good in the world)
- Mental challenge
- Physical challenge
- Meet people
- Earn money
- Daily routine
- etc.
Full-time employment is a popular way to get these desires satisfied, but it's far from the only way.
For example, if I would take a sabbatical right now, earning money or meeting people would not be an immediate problem. However, I would miss the mental challenge and doing something good for the world. So I'd likely take up open source contribution. I'd probably do quite a lot of it -- several hours per day. Is it work? No, I don't think people would call it that. Does it do for me many of the things work does for me? Yeah.
Sorry you're right, by "working" I meant "working for The Man" :-). I just spent my Sunday afternoon working on writing jokes for my standup comedy routine, The Man wasn't involved in that work at all. Pay's a lot less than fixing broken websites though ;-)
I think the same could be said for wanting part-time employment.
3 days a week is definitely doable, at least as a contractor (source: that is what I am doing right now, and I even have the luck of being able to choose between two companies for my next engagement)
I'm 59 you young whippersnapper, and one thing I've learned in all those extra months is that my inelastic brain has some useful ruts carved in it, such that I can bang out much code in a fraction of the time that I used to, just because I've done so many similar things before and have grown my toolkit. And it's lower stress/effort work at the same time, almost on autopilot for swaths of it.
Maybe I'm at a disadvantage to a young dev in some greenfield on a fresh stack. But I've been in a lot of greenfields and fresh stacks too, and the patterns repeat.
That said someday my utility will drop below my cost. I may not _want_ to notice, but my compiler will tell me. I can't lie to the compiler. When my brain can't build any more my commits won't build anymore, it isn't very subtle.
Maybe I'm at a disadvantage to a young dev in some greenfield on a fresh stack. But I've been in a lot of greenfields and fresh stacks too, and the patterns repeat.
That said someday my utility will drop below my cost. I may not _want_ to notice, but my compiler will tell me. I can't lie to the compiler. When my brain can't build any more my commits won't build anymore, it isn't very subtle.
I'm 65 and started a new job as a programmer a few weeks ago. I can relate to your brain elasticity issues for sure. I am really enjoying the new team and the work is fun but it does take its toll on my brain. By the end of a full day of coding or troubleshooting my brain feels... depleted. By friday I find it more difficult than in the past to quickly remember things.
I am doing well in the job and, due to a long career, have experience in a lot of the things they need. I am also still excited about learning new skills and toolsets and I'm in the right place for it.
But I do feel that the brain depletion, it feels like I have used something up - glycogen or something, is noticeable.
Any OTC recommendations would be appreciated.
I am doing well in the job and, due to a long career, have experience in a lot of the things they need. I am also still excited about learning new skills and toolsets and I'm in the right place for it.
But I do feel that the brain depletion, it feels like I have used something up - glycogen or something, is noticeable.
Any OTC recommendations would be appreciated.
Anyone who is working hard all day will feel depleted.
I wish people would stop pandering in this thread. It is reinforcing ageist stereotypes.
I wish people would stop pandering in this thread. It is reinforcing ageist stereotypes.
[deleted]
It feels this way for everyone, some people just pretend to be geniuses and cover up their mistakes.
Just use a normal structured note-taking process in a text file, and review it periodically (start of day, end of day), and you will have a superhero memory better than anyone on the team.
I review the scrum board before daily, and I review the backlog before planning meetings, and people are super impressed with how I remember every detail about everything.
Just use a normal structured note-taking process in a text file, and review it periodically (start of day, end of day), and you will have a superhero memory better than anyone on the team.
I review the scrum board before daily, and I review the backlog before planning meetings, and people are super impressed with how I remember every detail about everything.
I'm 42. I use mental math to stay sharp. Exercise and diet also make a difference.
Could you elaborate on the mental math part - do you do particular exercises?
There are a lot of apps available, just search on mental math. I've found that relatively simple arithmetic done repeatedly works well, look for those kinds of apps. About 10-15 mins of these problems per day is enough.
Stupid question, wouldn't coding (keeping the flow of the code in mind), being the same type if exercise?
No it doesn't give me the same effect, surprisingly. However it does definitely help with coding.
It gives your working memory and symbol manipulation a workout. Coding uses these facilities, but might not work them directly enough to be as good at training them. That's my theory so far.
It gives your working memory and symbol manipulation a workout. Coding uses these facilities, but might not work them directly enough to be as good at training them. That's my theory so far.
For me coding is mostly about memory, math is more about processing.
Get B1 HCL 100-2000mg + NAD+ booster (Niagen) + Mg Threonate, that resolves inefficient energy metabolism in your brain/nerves that might cause the feeling of your brain being depleted (pseudohypoxia). Also, at your age L-Carnitine might be needed. Q10/Quercetin/Pterostilben/Bromelain/Betaine/NAC/R ALA/DCA might be worth considering depending on what other issues you face.
I am 48 and while I still like “programming”, I saw the writing on the wall about four years ago and knew I didn’t want to deal with the leetcode monkey dance shit show that would be required to transition to BigTech from enterprise/corp dev.
I also knew I wanted to make more money. I did a slight pivot. But for all intents and purposes, I’m still a “developer” just with a fancier title.
I also knew I wanted to make more money. I did a slight pivot. But for all intents and purposes, I’m still a “developer” just with a fancier title.
What about abstract thinking ? at 23 I used to rush through never ending streams of programming ideas, most of them were shallow if not stupid. I'm "slow" now, but in a "make haste slowly".. I take time to grasp higher level, more precise ideas instead of running head down.
The bit about the existential shift in priorities rings true to me. At 20 you dream about mastering the future, at 40 you couldn't care less.
The bit about the existential shift in priorities rings true to me. At 20 you dream about mastering the future, at 40 you couldn't care less.
Yup. I think slower, but I go in fewer false directions, create fewer bad designs, and write fewer bugs and maintenance headaches. Overall, I think it's a net win - I'm faster than I was, not because I'm slinging code faster, but because I'm faster at getting to the right code.
But, um, could y'all stop changing the procedures on me every week? I ain't got time for that...
But, um, could y'all stop changing the procedures on me every week? I ain't got time for that...
Oh right, the "random change" is mentally exhausting. Especially when it's fad driven... That's half why I went into math and electronics as a hobby.. a little stabler than programming.
For me, the worst scenario is a Zoom call with everyone using pathetic earbud mics or even worse their laptop mic -- and talking a mile a minute, changing the subject before I have a chance to butt in, interrupting each other with memes and non-sequiturs, etc.
I think some of this is generational -- the under 30 crowd seems especially hyper-kinetc, almost as if they grew up on a diet of overstimulating media competing viciously for slivers of attention from teenagers addled with drugs to help them cram a bit of marketable information into their saturated brains (er, sorry, to treat their ADHD...)
But I've already gone on too long on my personal hobby horse, as we elder fogies are prone to do.
Also, get off my lawn
I think some of this is generational -- the under 30 crowd seems especially hyper-kinetc, almost as if they grew up on a diet of overstimulating media competing viciously for slivers of attention from teenagers addled with drugs to help them cram a bit of marketable information into their saturated brains (er, sorry, to treat their ADHD...)
But I've already gone on too long on my personal hobby horse, as we elder fogies are prone to do.
Also, get off my lawn
> "It takes you a while to read code & understand what it's doing". She was right.
Yeah but the young inexperienced people are also overconfident and assume they understand things, when they actually don't, jump to conclusions and waste a lot of time coding themselves into a corner, before they realise: AH! Now I actually understand what the problem is! Back to square one.
A more experienced person has made this mistake enough times, to understand that it's worth spending the time it takes to actually understand something, before making changes, and stroking your ego by pretending to be fast, is really counterproductive.
Yeah but the young inexperienced people are also overconfident and assume they understand things, when they actually don't, jump to conclusions and waste a lot of time coding themselves into a corner, before they realise: AH! Now I actually understand what the problem is! Back to square one.
A more experienced person has made this mistake enough times, to understand that it's worth spending the time it takes to actually understand something, before making changes, and stroking your ego by pretending to be fast, is really counterproductive.
Yeah. The youngster probably writes more code in a given amount of time. That's not the same thing as being more productive.
For males over a certain age, your mental acuity drop may be related to decreasing testosterone levels. Have your levels checked out. Medication may give you back that edge you noticed you are missing.
When I was 25 I could scan a 5000 line file in a few minutes and start making changes. I’m now a lot older than that. It takes me a few days to get completely happy with a file of that size and start making changes.
When I was 25, I had a small number of heuristics and gotchas to look for, now I have thousands, it takes longer to consider them. Also, when I was 25 I would make the smallest change I could, now I tidy up the file and do a bit of light refactoring where I can make the code simpler. I serve a different purpose in the code now and I think it’s a more valuable one.
When I was 25, I had a small number of heuristics and gotchas to look for, now I have thousands, it takes longer to consider them. Also, when I was 25 I would make the smallest change I could, now I tidy up the file and do a bit of light refactoring where I can make the code simpler. I serve a different purpose in the code now and I think it’s a more valuable one.
> When I was 25, I had a small number of heuristics and gotchas to look for, now I have thousands, it takes longer to consider them.
Exactly! You have a much more advanced thinking process, that will let you avoid a lot of mistakes, and let you be much faster in the long run/on average, only seemingly slow and sluggish at the beginning, because you don't jump to conclusions anymore.
Exactly! You have a much more advanced thinking process, that will let you avoid a lot of mistakes, and let you be much faster in the long run/on average, only seemingly slow and sluggish at the beginning, because you don't jump to conclusions anymore.
Poor Larry. Was that in a 'right to work's state?
It's Management's job to manage. It doesn't say much about them that they couldn't find a way to motivate Larry, or to make use of his skills without firing him.
Workers aren't going to be as productive when they are pregnant, have young kids, are chronically ill, experience bereavement etc etc
Cutting people loose as soon as they are less than optimal is brutal.
It makes me very glad that I live somewhere where employment rights (because of a long history of worker's struggles) are a bit more civilised.
It's Management's job to manage. It doesn't say much about them that they couldn't find a way to motivate Larry, or to make use of his skills without firing him.
Workers aren't going to be as productive when they are pregnant, have young kids, are chronically ill, experience bereavement etc etc
Cutting people loose as soon as they are less than optimal is brutal.
It makes me very glad that I live somewhere where employment rights (because of a long history of worker's struggles) are a bit more civilised.
> My brain isn't as elastic as a younger programmer's.
The book Memory Craft by Lynne Kelly proposes that cultures that value and practice mnemonics, like storytelling, has less incidence of this and even often lack the idea that growing old means becoming duller. I've found that my memory is actually very lazy and practicing mnemonics has taken a lot of work, but I've also seen noticeable differences in my trained memory and recall in other areas of life.
The book Memory Craft by Lynne Kelly proposes that cultures that value and practice mnemonics, like storytelling, has less incidence of this and even often lack the idea that growing old means becoming duller. I've found that my memory is actually very lazy and practicing mnemonics has taken a lot of work, but I've also seen noticeable differences in my trained memory and recall in other areas of life.
1. "My brain feels slow; I'm lost; must be that I'm not good enough. But I'm 18 and have to suck it up and try harder." Improves and masters self.
2. "My brain feels slow; I'm lost; must be that I'm getting old. Yes, that's it. Nothing to do." Lets go of themself; hello mental muscle loss.
3. "I bombed the exam. I'm just bad at [math, physics, foreign languages, writing, ...], but hey that's life!" Talks themself out of improvement and into a self-image that biases to failure.
4. "I bombed the exam. I'm over the hill so my brain isn't good enough. Oh well, but hey that's life!" Result: ditto.
5. "I bombed on the exam. I'm older, so I've forgotten how to try as hard as I used to. Time to get scrappy." Result: improvement and self-mastery.
Now add society. In the younger person a host of coaches, cheerleaders, friends and the dominant social narratives are telling urging them to push themselves further than they knew they could. "You can do it!" And with the old? "Hey, take it easy! Relax. We have low expectations for you--you can't do it--, and anyway we feel uncomfortable telling you what to do so we'll often just ignore you."
Without saying there's no such thing as age-related mental decline, I'm just about certain, seeing many older folks, that's it's abused, a self-fulfilling excuse, while in reality the truly age-related decline (as opposed to habit-related) is less important than it's made out to be, and can be deferred a decade or two beyond what many let themselves believe.
Similar to a person who can't give up the nice cars, house, clothes, vacations, dinners, in order to start all over again on a new adventure, too many older people have relied for too long on--grown addicted to--the luxuries of accumulated knowledge or seniority that allow them to operate at a broader, more conceptual level. Then, having to return to the pain of detail-oriented, working memory-related tasks feels as challenging as it did when they were youngsters. They were perhaps fresher, also typically more disheveled. Now they've lost the coaches and cheerleaders of youth and gained excuses--"I'm over the hill!"; "I require the dignity of age"--that cripple them. More exercise, healthy lifestyle, consistent effort, trying as hard at self-mastery as they did when they were young strivers and pushed themselves beyond their limits, and not listening to ageist arguments should make up for the lion's share of whatever mental decline is common in older people. They just need to be older strivers.
But the studies... Yes, well the studies record people who enjoy the flabby habits of seniority and the results of social bias. Far better to take control of the bias... to have the better, helpful bias.
2. "My brain feels slow; I'm lost; must be that I'm getting old. Yes, that's it. Nothing to do." Lets go of themself; hello mental muscle loss.
3. "I bombed the exam. I'm just bad at [math, physics, foreign languages, writing, ...], but hey that's life!" Talks themself out of improvement and into a self-image that biases to failure.
4. "I bombed the exam. I'm over the hill so my brain isn't good enough. Oh well, but hey that's life!" Result: ditto.
5. "I bombed on the exam. I'm older, so I've forgotten how to try as hard as I used to. Time to get scrappy." Result: improvement and self-mastery.
Now add society. In the younger person a host of coaches, cheerleaders, friends and the dominant social narratives are telling urging them to push themselves further than they knew they could. "You can do it!" And with the old? "Hey, take it easy! Relax. We have low expectations for you--you can't do it--, and anyway we feel uncomfortable telling you what to do so we'll often just ignore you."
Without saying there's no such thing as age-related mental decline, I'm just about certain, seeing many older folks, that's it's abused, a self-fulfilling excuse, while in reality the truly age-related decline (as opposed to habit-related) is less important than it's made out to be, and can be deferred a decade or two beyond what many let themselves believe.
Similar to a person who can't give up the nice cars, house, clothes, vacations, dinners, in order to start all over again on a new adventure, too many older people have relied for too long on--grown addicted to--the luxuries of accumulated knowledge or seniority that allow them to operate at a broader, more conceptual level. Then, having to return to the pain of detail-oriented, working memory-related tasks feels as challenging as it did when they were youngsters. They were perhaps fresher, also typically more disheveled. Now they've lost the coaches and cheerleaders of youth and gained excuses--"I'm over the hill!"; "I require the dignity of age"--that cripple them. More exercise, healthy lifestyle, consistent effort, trying as hard at self-mastery as they did when they were young strivers and pushed themselves beyond their limits, and not listening to ageist arguments should make up for the lion's share of whatever mental decline is common in older people. They just need to be older strivers.
But the studies... Yes, well the studies record people who enjoy the flabby habits of seniority and the results of social bias. Far better to take control of the bias... to have the better, helpful bias.
I'm 53 and I can't relate to the talk of feeling like my brain is less elastic. I am by no means the pinnacle of fitness (diabetes type 2 etc).
One thing I'll note, is that coding has always been a way for me to solve personal entrepreneurial problems. I get an idea, I want to make it happen, I'll use/learn the best tech to make it a reality. So I use the madness to fuel the learning.
I guess there's always the chance it was never elastic to begin with!
One thing I'll note, is that coding has always been a way for me to solve personal entrepreneurial problems. I get an idea, I want to make it happen, I'll use/learn the best tech to make it a reality. So I use the madness to fuel the learning.
I guess there's always the chance it was never elastic to begin with!
I think that Noam Chomsky has some bicycle theory of mind. Keep pedaling or you'll fall off. Seems to work for him (though he did have a very good bike to start with)
I need to mail this to myself in 20 years.
Great work! Reading this inspires. Thanks for posting
None of this addresses the real reasons why it's hard to get hired after 50 (actually, it starts in the mid-30s). It's not that older people are always at technology (they aren't) or that young workers don't want them around (they do). It's that bosses assume that anyone who isn't one of them by a certain age is either embittered or was anti-authoritarian from the start. Which isn't false.
To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be—often are—a million reasons why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the system works, because they are the system.)
Bosses want to feel young again, but they also know that workplace subordination is humiliating and that older people are likely to have figured this fact out, while young people still think they're going to be invited to join the execs within 3 years (which the vast majority of them won't).
To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be—often are—a million reasons why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the system works, because they are the system.)
Bosses want to feel young again, but they also know that workplace subordination is humiliating and that older people are likely to have figured this fact out, while young people still think they're going to be invited to join the execs within 3 years (which the vast majority of them won't).
> ... they're still in the running for subordinate positions
I think that statement does a disservice to being a software engineer, and is off the mark as well.
At my company (VMware), I know at least one Senior Director and three other Directors (Matthew K., David S., Rajan A., and Ryan R.)who abdicated their managerial role in favor of being an individual contributor for the simple reason that it was much more enjoyable, not because they're "embittered" or "anti-authoritarian".
For a more high-profile example, Mitch Hashimoto of Hashicorp went back to being an indicvidual contributor.
And, on a personal note, I'm 58 & I love engineering — it's fun. I like software, and I'm happy being a developer. I don't think I'd enjoy being a manager, and am not interested in finding out.
I think that statement does a disservice to being a software engineer, and is off the mark as well.
At my company (VMware), I know at least one Senior Director and three other Directors (Matthew K., David S., Rajan A., and Ryan R.)who abdicated their managerial role in favor of being an individual contributor for the simple reason that it was much more enjoyable, not because they're "embittered" or "anti-authoritarian".
For a more high-profile example, Mitch Hashimoto of Hashicorp went back to being an indicvidual contributor.
And, on a personal note, I'm 58 & I love engineering — it's fun. I like software, and I'm happy being a developer. I don't think I'd enjoy being a manager, and am not interested in finding out.
We are very lucky to be in an industry where being a manager is recognized as a different job instead of a superior promotion from individual contributor. There still are, of course, software companies that expect to promote ICs to managers, but in this job market you can simply leave those companies.
I think we're getting there. One big reason everyone assumes tech workers are all young is because tech has been growing so rapidly. I expect to be one of the old farts in a few years because it's still growing. The next generation might find that they have a more mixed workforce, where when they come into a company most of their coworkers are substantially older than them, as most office jobs were for most people for most of history.
> To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be—often are—a million reasons why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the system works, because they are the system.)
Actually, you're engaging in the bias right now. I don't ever plan on getting out of IC/Engineering. Stop assuming that's something everyone wants to do.
Actually, you're engaging in the bias right now. I don't ever plan on getting out of IC/Engineering. Stop assuming that's something everyone wants to do.
I did it already ("because of my expérience" it was presented to me as the natural way forward). Had to fire someone, lost my sleep for a few days because of that. Back to engineering roles which I enjoy much more anyway
I've had to separate a couple of people from the company. In both cases they very quickly found another job, and on following up with them they were much happier doing something that looks quite different from what they were trying to do before.
The world is big, and the chances that you happen to be in the optimal role at the optimal company are vanishingly small. In my book, a category of management failure is letting someone doggedly clutch on to something that's hard on both themselves and those around them.
The world is big, and the chances that you happen to be in the optimal role at the optimal company are vanishingly small. In my book, a category of management failure is letting someone doggedly clutch on to something that's hard on both themselves and those around them.
Sorry you had to deal with that, but I'm glad you're back in the pilots seat!
But isn't being the boss often a significantly different discipline? My boss deals with politics, business strategy and resource coordination. I deal with concrete engineering/design challenges. Sure there's overlap between what we do but it should be clear that not everyone would want to transition from one to the other.
Basically the answer to your question is that too little of any problem is engineering to justify someone experienced remaining as just an engineer. As you get more senior, you should be knowledgeable and experienced enough to be able to coordinate the efforts of other engineers and mentor (or facilitate mentoring of) junior members of the team. And you should be able to cooperate (or battle) with other sections of your organization for resources and to convey progress on your projects.
Everyone would like the person doing the above to be someone intimately familiar with and good at the work they're managing, or else everyone is pointy haired boss and we all have to complain about how MBAs are ruining our lives...
Everyone would like the person doing the above to be someone intimately familiar with and good at the work they're managing, or else everyone is pointy haired boss and we all have to complain about how MBAs are ruining our lives...
> As you get more senior, you should be knowledgeable and experienced enough to be able to coordinate the efforts of other engineers and mentor (or facilitate mentoring of) junior members of the team. And you should be able to cooperate (or battle) with other sections of your organization for resources and to convey progress on your projects.
I agree that those tasks are important, but none of them require being a manager who is formally someone's boss (hires, fires, does performance reviews, deals with HR issues, etc.). I didn't like being peoples' boss, so I stepped down from my management job years ago to become a developer again. But as a very senior developer, I've done all of those other things (mentoring, coordination, cooperation, etc.).
I agree that those tasks are important, but none of them require being a manager who is formally someone's boss (hires, fires, does performance reviews, deals with HR issues, etc.). I didn't like being peoples' boss, so I stepped down from my management job years ago to become a developer again. But as a very senior developer, I've done all of those other things (mentoring, coordination, cooperation, etc.).
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Just because you have the ability to do all those things you listed doesn’t mean you need to do them. It’s a valid choice to continue the relatively lower stress job of a software engineer.
You would need to define an invalid choice before such a discussion could proceed.
>> they're still in the running for subordinate positions
Old man, over 50. I still write code. Still getting paid. It's not a subordinate position. It's my thing that I do.
Old man, over 50. I still write code. Still getting paid. It's not a subordinate position. It's my thing that I do.
> ...have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions...
This is a really weird take. It's not harder to get hired as a manager somewhere than it is as a SWE. Different skill-sets.
This is a really weird take. It's not harder to get hired as a manager somewhere than it is as a SWE. Different skill-sets.
maybe it’s because older people tend to have more leverage, options and paid mortgage/debts?
unlike younger people who don’t and thus are more vulnerable to corporate exploitation
just a theory
unlike younger people who don’t and thus are more vulnerable to corporate exploitation
just a theory
> To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions.
Honestly that’s why a lot of people do consulting gigs. It’s a lot easier to say it was a choice than to explain how you’re a 54 year old AVP.
Honestly that’s why a lot of people do consulting gigs. It’s a lot easier to say it was a choice than to explain how you’re a 54 year old AVP.
Not sure why corporate drones like you visit hacker news. Why not go start middle-management-cop out news and take your office-worker-class opinions with you?
Most of HN is corporate drones...
Just last night, I listened to my son explain the long and rigorous process that he watched senior faculty at a top 10 university go through in selecting post grad students and research assistants. I’ve been part of the “try to pick the best candidate” process for many years in professional, church, and community institutions.
Of late, I’m beginning to suspect that there are basically two camps in this whole game.
1. The optimistic one that believes rigorous evaluations and screening are worth the effort. They may even accept some of the failures, but basically believe we’re still getting there, we’ll figure this out. It’s better than doing nothing.
2. The near nihilistic group that basically worries the whole process creates a lot of heat but sheds very little light. That often these choices backfire on us, that our prejudices are our own worst enemies, that while we have some wins in steering the “right” choice, taken overall as a net, it’s not really any better than just random luck of the draw.
For many years I think I was camp 1. I worry of late that camp 2 is looking more and more like the reality. Maybe I’m just down about this whole process today.
Of late, I’m beginning to suspect that there are basically two camps in this whole game.
1. The optimistic one that believes rigorous evaluations and screening are worth the effort. They may even accept some of the failures, but basically believe we’re still getting there, we’ll figure this out. It’s better than doing nothing.
2. The near nihilistic group that basically worries the whole process creates a lot of heat but sheds very little light. That often these choices backfire on us, that our prejudices are our own worst enemies, that while we have some wins in steering the “right” choice, taken overall as a net, it’s not really any better than just random luck of the draw.
For many years I think I was camp 1. I worry of late that camp 2 is looking more and more like the reality. Maybe I’m just down about this whole process today.
Every place I've ever worked says "we only hire the best". I don't recall anyone saying "we intend to hire average people". It's sort of like Lake Woebegon where all the children are above average.
Yeah, but it's the best of their availabile options. No TechCo or startup that I've seen is capable of admitting to themselves that they're a Pony league baseball team in southern Ohio and not the LA Dodgers.
Culturally, I like the emphasis on "every hire increases the average in the long run."
When the project or product has the capacity, then when I hire folks I am way less concerned with what they can do immediately today and more interested in what they can do after 3 to 6 months of consistent, earnest growth. If they have critical skillsets and capabilities that are crucial and needed immediately, that's a wonderful thing too, but cross-skilling and training are really needed to prevent those kinds of situations from occuring generally.
When the project or product has the capacity, then when I hire folks I am way less concerned with what they can do immediately today and more interested in what they can do after 3 to 6 months of consistent, earnest growth. If they have critical skillsets and capabilities that are crucial and needed immediately, that's a wonderful thing too, but cross-skilling and training are really needed to prevent those kinds of situations from occuring generally.
Do you do leetcode tests?
I've done the leetcode thing. As a hiring manager, I don't find much value in homogenization of skillsets that comes from dedicating time to memorizing rote answers to problems. Some amount of that skill on a team can be beneficial, but it's less effective when everyone brings that skillset to the table.
The issue with leetcode is a lot like the issue of GMAT/GRE/SAT/ACT. It can be used to remove candidates from the pool, but it is a really poor indicator of general success overall. All it does is make the candidate pool a bit more manageable at the expense of people who have other skillsets.
Skillsets that are selected against by leetcode are tip-of-the-spear adopters and other innovators (broad thinkers), communication skillsets, and often UX understanding/projection.
As an employer, I have used Hackerrank for a specific skillset and role we needed (deep SQL experience), but that is the only type of testing we used for selection processing.
The issue with leetcode is a lot like the issue of GMAT/GRE/SAT/ACT. It can be used to remove candidates from the pool, but it is a really poor indicator of general success overall. All it does is make the candidate pool a bit more manageable at the expense of people who have other skillsets.
Skillsets that are selected against by leetcode are tip-of-the-spear adopters and other innovators (broad thinkers), communication skillsets, and often UX understanding/projection.
As an employer, I have used Hackerrank for a specific skillset and role we needed (deep SQL experience), but that is the only type of testing we used for selection processing.
There are managers and directors in tech who realize that their job is to hire the best given their budget.
This happens, in particular, when hiring technical middle management at "second tier but still amazing" employers. Outside of FAANG, but definitely household names. The unique characteristic is that their "ideal candidate" will almost certainly interview and is almost certainly unaffordable.
At lower tier employers, it's safe to tell yourself "we hire the best" because the best almost never apply (and, when they do, they're doing so for a very good reason and probably understand your constraints).
Also, for fungible roles, you always say "we hire the best" because you don't actually care about hiring the best but telling everyone that you did is good for morale because that means they're the best.
This happens, in particular, when hiring technical middle management at "second tier but still amazing" employers. Outside of FAANG, but definitely household names. The unique characteristic is that their "ideal candidate" will almost certainly interview and is almost certainly unaffordable.
At lower tier employers, it's safe to tell yourself "we hire the best" because the best almost never apply (and, when they do, they're doing so for a very good reason and probably understand your constraints).
Also, for fungible roles, you always say "we hire the best" because you don't actually care about hiring the best but telling everyone that you did is good for morale because that means they're the best.
I worked at a Bank before at this was the hiring plan. Simply fill the seats and expect a strong(er) manager to guide the output. Hiring the best simply wasn't an option in most cases, but one good hire was expected to closely monitor and correct the output from many.
This didn't work out very well in practice. The efforts of one bad programmer's output can easily max out two people to clean it up. So the Bank had mostly given up on producing its own code and tried to outsource or buy everything it could.
This didn't work out very well in practice. The efforts of one bad programmer's output can easily max out two people to clean it up. So the Bank had mostly given up on producing its own code and tried to outsource or buy everything it could.
See also: Joy's Law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy%27s_law_(management)
Well it's the best of the ~10 candidates they interviewed, but that's not exactly the same thing.
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#4, use your network, should be #1. If you are 50 and you did not just make a drastic career change, you probably know some former colleagues who enjoyed working with you in the past.
It often feels awkward to directly ask someone for work. So instead, ask if they can refer you to their friends, and you may be surprised how many volunteer a leg up on a position to work directly with them instead.
It often feels awkward to directly ask someone for work. So instead, ask if they can refer you to their friends, and you may be surprised how many volunteer a leg up on a position to work directly with them instead.
I agree about the network. If you're not mentoring younger people and helping them in your 30s and 40s the future may not be so bright.
HN needs a badging system for these sorts of articles so JS programmers don't have useless debates with Ada devs and so forth...
Being a SWE is completely, utterly different in different roles, industries, and even teams. I could give you honest advice based on my 25 years in embedded/systems programming and it would be completely inappropriate if you were looking to write JS at a SF unicorn.
Being a SWE is completely, utterly different in different roles, industries, and even teams. I could give you honest advice based on my 25 years in embedded/systems programming and it would be completely inappropriate if you were looking to write JS at a SF unicorn.
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Giving badges to different programmers would only stratify the programming 'purity hierarchy' further.
Having said that, I for one welcome our rust/clojure overlords and humbly submit that I am but a lowly react developer.
Having said that, I for one welcome our rust/clojure overlords and humbly submit that I am but a lowly react developer.
Try me! I'd be happy to hear your advice. I'm sure it's more relevant than we both think
On the other hand I have 3 colleagues in their 70s working in a silicon design startup, they can still design even do some coding debugging, well paid too.
They're all technical and bored at retirement, I feel they're like those college professors that are old but capable, so they can be employed, some are actually sought after.
sure it's challenging to get into FAANG(due to their leetcode barrier) but there are many other companies 50s/60s can work for.
They're all technical and bored at retirement, I feel they're like those college professors that are old but capable, so they can be employed, some are actually sought after.
sure it's challenging to get into FAANG(due to their leetcode barrier) but there are many other companies 50s/60s can work for.
FAANG hiring is just different. They have a vast system of middle management ready to intake juniors, spit out the bad, promote the good. At this point it's a machine. Really senior people (by position) don't fit into this mold. There are exceptions, eg if the senior has a famous product or following -> as this will help intake more juniors into mega corp.
So someone in their 40s or 50s shouldn't do the leetcode grind and take a shot at a FAANG job? I hear it argued both ways, sounds like you're suggesting it's pointless.
I know someone who was hired at Google right about the time he hit 60. Really smart guy which is how he got in, I suppose. He left after a couple of years. He hated it. Said the ageism was rampant and they didn't even try to hide it.
I know another guy who is a top C++ developer (books, conference talks) who started at Google when he was around 45. Similar story. He hated it, left after a couple of years and is now Chief Scientist at a much smaller software company - a gig he seems to relish.
So you could try to get in in your 40s or 50s, but it's likely that the culture will not agree with you.
I know another guy who is a top C++ developer (books, conference talks) who started at Google when he was around 45. Similar story. He hated it, left after a couple of years and is now Chief Scientist at a much smaller software company - a gig he seems to relish.
So you could try to get in in your 40s or 50s, but it's likely that the culture will not agree with you.
Not that I would have qualified, but years and years ago when I looked at a Google recruiting page, it featured a picture of "field hockey in the parking lot at lunchtime", IIRC. I took that as a hint about age preferences.
I got into Google in my forties and it wasn’t a big deal at all. I do have a fairly specialized skill set and the demand is always high, but as far as I can tell, age didn’t come into it.
your name checks out
The best way to get into a FAANG but bypass whiteboard hell is to work for a late-stage startup that ends up getting acquired. They do not run the same crazy recruiting filter on employees who come through an acquisition.
OTOH, agree with other posters there is ageism for sure, but there is also the luck of the draw as to who you work for. Again, acquisition _may_ mean your team stays intact - but that depends on the success of the product/service/tech that drove the deal in the first place.
OTOH, agree with other posters there is ageism for sure, but there is also the luck of the draw as to who you work for. Again, acquisition _may_ mean your team stays intact - but that depends on the success of the product/service/tech that drove the deal in the first place.
The best way to get into a FAANG without having to roll the dice hoping your startup gets acquired and avoid whiteboard hell is to be able to combine soft skills with technical skills and end up in their cloud consulting division - three of the top five most valuable companies have them - or end up in some other type of soft skill/technical role.
Ask me how I know…
Ask me how I know…
that makes sense, startup and many others companies do not have lots of those middle-level management, so you're expected to be self-reliant from the start, where senior and experience hires fit well.
Do they also work with young people? Does it work? The biggest problem I have with older co-workers is that they are frequently much less flexible -- "stuck in the mud".
Two does work with young engineers actively, one does his own stuff(board design and such), all in all, they are fine just like the rest, the key is that, they know what they are doing for sure and they don't mind their own age(to be the oldest in the room), which also says that they're mentally young.
You wrote: <<they're mentally young>> This is the key! Were you part of the hiring team? I am curious about different strategies to discern mental "age" when hiring obviously older candidates. Do you use situational interviews?
Interesting dissonance here in that being over fifty means care needs to be taken while currently there is also talk of a hiring crunch because of a lack of qualified talent. It seems fairly obvious that something is going wrong, likely with genuinely qualified people's resumes getting spit out of the funnel prematurely.
The genuinely qualified people in tech are probably not the ones finding this article organically. TFA is not even industry specific...just think of the target audience, and then consider whether this is a cause for concern.
US centric article. I am over the article mentioned age by quite a few years, and since arriving in France I got job offers (and accepted one), without "hiding" anything in my resume (education w/dates, complete experience w/dates + up-to-date picture in resume).
BTW: I was member of AARP until last year, in the US. Wasted money + junk mail every once in a while...
BTW: I was member of AARP until last year, in the US. Wasted money + junk mail every once in a while...
How did you find these offers? I'm planning to move to France (from US) and to look for jobs once I learn French well. Feel free to email me if you don't want to share publicly.
No secret :-) I changed my profile in LinkedIn to mention new location (France) and added "Freelance/Consulting in sabbatical". Had absolutely no intention to get a job, originally (my sabbatical was in fact a sort of pre-retirement/FIRE), but when I started getting DMs in LinkedIn I became curious. A few calls with some folks, with one thread of conversations which seemed too interesting to not pursue - job offer.
Thanks! I'm in a similar situation. Good tip with "sabbatical". I should do the same.
I found the solution to getting hired a long time ago. Be self employed. My boss is a bit of an ogre and he never gives bonuses, but at least I get to sleep with his wife, so that's a plus.
Jeeze, what does your wife think of that arrangement? :)
> Be self employed.
You missed the joke, I think :-)
You missed the joke, I think :-)
COVID and the remote work revolution actually had an upside for over-50s. For the first time you could conduct a full series of interviews without anyone seeing your face. Many companies are happy to conduct the initial interview by phone then send you a code test for stage 2. If you make it to stage 3 the company is in a much more compromised position rejecting you in a face-to-face over Zoom as the ageism would be obvious.
I don't agree. If they can't find anything concrete to reject you on, they call it "culture fit" or lack there of and off you go.. How could you possibly prove it was agism?
I think blaming culture fit is widely known as 'we are discriminating, either explicitly or as a result of our own biases'. Once you have a pattern of bad culture fit with older people, feels like an easy case to make.
I do a bit of screening at the outset. If a company even mentions "cultural fit" it ends there. We all know what "cultural fit" really means.
I think, this may be true, as I recently got a contact from big tech. And this did not happen in a long while for me. So I decided that I will give it a try, and a full heart-ed one at that, with leetcode 150 problem list, picked up from one HN story recently. And also would take a System Design course to brush up my presentation.
I have been comfortable being useful doing remote work for a SV client for close to 4 years. But do worry a lot recently about ageism etc. So this page article and discussion is very useful for me.
In some months, I will try to share my experience of 'how it went'. It will take that much time, as I would devote 6 weeks at least for learning, and then try to go through 2-3 tech companies in parallel, as per the common advise I have seen.
I have been comfortable being useful doing remote work for a SV client for close to 4 years. But do worry a lot recently about ageism etc. So this page article and discussion is very useful for me.
In some months, I will try to share my experience of 'how it went'. It will take that much time, as I would devote 6 weeks at least for learning, and then try to go through 2-3 tech companies in parallel, as per the common advise I have seen.
I guess for companies that have unlimited positions open this could help. But I feel like most companies hire to fill a specific post, and the most obvious reason for not being hired, is that they hired someone else.
As an employer I have been in a situation where we had 3 perfectly good candidates for s position, any of the 3 would have been fine at the job, but there's only one post. There was no reason for rejecting 2 of them other than there was only one post to fill.
While we didn't have discrimination issues to deal with there, it would be hard to show (if there had been) that we were being ageist or whatever.
I can completely see though that hiring someone at say 30 may be more attractive than hiring a 58 year old. I might feel that a 58 year old will retire soon (so I have to hire all over again), or that they might have a "don't tell me how to do it, I've been doing this for 30 years" attitude, which can be unhelpful. That's balanced against greater experience meaning they should be better at the actual job.
I can certainly see how over 55 makes you less attractive than compeditors for the spot.
As an employer I have been in a situation where we had 3 perfectly good candidates for s position, any of the 3 would have been fine at the job, but there's only one post. There was no reason for rejecting 2 of them other than there was only one post to fill.
While we didn't have discrimination issues to deal with there, it would be hard to show (if there had been) that we were being ageist or whatever.
I can completely see though that hiring someone at say 30 may be more attractive than hiring a 58 year old. I might feel that a 58 year old will retire soon (so I have to hire all over again), or that they might have a "don't tell me how to do it, I've been doing this for 30 years" attitude, which can be unhelpful. That's balanced against greater experience meaning they should be better at the actual job.
I can certainly see how over 55 makes you less attractive than compeditors for the spot.
Get a low res camera, dye your hair, heck, wear some make up if needed.
Once they hire you, they're actually committed.
(Almost) All's fair in love and interviewing.
Once they hire you, they're actually committed.
(Almost) All's fair in love and interviewing.
Trung Phan recently wrote an article on the rise of pseudonyms in social media and how it leads to meritocracy [1]. I think a similar thing will be huge for this sort of ageism and odd interview practices.
I think the next job board we'll see is "hiring anonymous". Still remains to resolve the legal part, perhaps some intermediary company can handle the anonymization(verify identity and credentials and handle govt paperwork). I think there will be corporate incentive to do this as it completely gives companies plausible deniability around their hiring practices.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-27/don-t-...
I think the next job board we'll see is "hiring anonymous". Still remains to resolve the legal part, perhaps some intermediary company can handle the anonymization(verify identity and credentials and handle govt paperwork). I think there will be corporate incentive to do this as it completely gives companies plausible deniability around their hiring practices.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-27/don-t-...
I'm considering myself lucky, but I've got hired two months ago, remotely, without revealing my age or anyone caring how I look. I'm 41. Meetings are voice only. I'm yet to meet anyone from the team face to face, yet I'm not worried about it, as I've been preserving myself well.
When I worked in defense aerospace the majority of software engineers were 40+. Plenty in their 50s, a few 60+.
There is a massive shortage of such embedded c developers coming it seems… which is tricky as for a lot of these components you’re legally required to be able to provide patches for the lifetime of the product, which could be decades. I worked for a company who once had to get a vic-20 out of retirement to provide a patch some 25 years after the code was shipped!
Analog programmers are typically much older. Last job worked at a production plant, and the engineers came in, worked a project, then enjoyed their time off. We would routinely just deactivate their accounts, because they would come back for the next project. Late 50/60's was the norm.
The article doesn't really mention what fields it's concerned about. Healthcare trends much older, for instance (https://www.journalofnursingregulation.com/article/S2155-825...). I'd think be helpful to know which fields have it worse, no?
Some of the advice also seems odd: "For instance, if your résumé still includes your street address or an older email account (such as AOL or Yahoo)." Yahoo is the second-most popular email provider and I doubt it would really send off an alarm bell for a recruiter. Why not include your street address on a formal document like a résumé, anyway?
Some of the advice also seems odd: "For instance, if your résumé still includes your street address or an older email account (such as AOL or Yahoo)." Yahoo is the second-most popular email provider and I doubt it would really send off an alarm bell for a recruiter. Why not include your street address on a formal document like a résumé, anyway?
> Why not include your street address on a formal document like a résumé, anyway?
Sadly we live in a world where people still run the risk of being judged on the basis of the neighbourhood they live in, rather than the skills they can bring to a job. By including a street address or postcode in our résumés, we invite people (or more often, nowadays, ML-based algorithms) to make sweeping judgements about us before we even reach the first stage of the hiring process.
Sadly we live in a world where people still run the risk of being judged on the basis of the neighbourhood they live in, rather than the skills they can bring to a job. By including a street address or postcode in our résumés, we invite people (or more often, nowadays, ML-based algorithms) to make sweeping judgements about us before we even reach the first stage of the hiring process.
Good tips, and also:
* Stay up-to-date on the latest tech
* Stay curious
* Keep working with colleagues of all ages, from interns to older colleagues.
* Stay up-to-date on the latest tech
* Stay curious
* Keep working with colleagues of all ages, from interns to older colleagues.
Don’t forget
* Be open and admit the areas you’re expert in even if they’re not popular - Java and COBOL still get hired
* Be open and admit the areas you’re expert in even if they’re not popular - Java and COBOL still get hired
> Java and COBOL still get hired
I work for a fairly well-known and successful tech company that's only about 10 years old, and Java is the main language for the company's flagship product. It's strange to me to see it lumped together with COBOL.
I work for a fairly well-known and successful tech company that's only about 10 years old, and Java is the main language for the company's flagship product. It's strange to me to see it lumped together with COBOL.
> While there is little you can do to hide your physical age, you might consider tweaks to your wardrobe or hairstyle to show that you are up to date on current styles and able to adapt.
This might be good advice, but it’s absolutely terrible that it’s required.
I’m really starting to think we should do voice only interviews, maybe even with voice changers (or maybe slack only interviews).
Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impac...
This might be good advice, but it’s absolutely terrible that it’s required.
I’m really starting to think we should do voice only interviews, maybe even with voice changers (or maybe slack only interviews).
Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impac...
I'm over fifty and I call bullshit.
Dress and appearance convey information about attitude and orientation. Who wants to hire someone who will constantly complain about the 80-character-per-line coding standard because they like 100 characters? Any team has all sorts of subtle norms, and wants someone who will adapt themselves to such things. If someone can't be bothered to dress properly, why would they bother to conform with any other workplace norm?
I wouldn't try to be "current", I'd end up looking like an idiot. But I'd appear in a decent pair of pants and nice blue shirt and proper shoes. I'm very aware that much of my wardrobe would make me look out of touch and stubborn, and no, I don't think it unfair for an interviewer to notice such things.
Really this is basic professionalism.
Dress and appearance convey information about attitude and orientation. Who wants to hire someone who will constantly complain about the 80-character-per-line coding standard because they like 100 characters? Any team has all sorts of subtle norms, and wants someone who will adapt themselves to such things. If someone can't be bothered to dress properly, why would they bother to conform with any other workplace norm?
I wouldn't try to be "current", I'd end up looking like an idiot. But I'd appear in a decent pair of pants and nice blue shirt and proper shoes. I'm very aware that much of my wardrobe would make me look out of touch and stubborn, and no, I don't think it unfair for an interviewer to notice such things.
Really this is basic professionalism.
>I wouldn't try to be "current", I'd end up looking like an idiot. But I'd appear in a decent pair of pants and nice blue shirt and proper shoes.
So you're saying that you're over 50, so you can't look "current", and it's fine for companies to discriminate based on that?
The advice in the article is literally "look current". The advice isn't "wear proper shoes", it's wear shoes that make you look younger.
So you're saying that you're over 50, so you can't look "current", and it's fine for companies to discriminate based on that?
The advice in the article is literally "look current". The advice isn't "wear proper shoes", it's wear shoes that make you look younger.
Well, that's bad advice. Few things are more pathetic than a middle-aged man trying to look hip. But it is fair of you to notice that I don't agree with the article either.
My point was, it is reasonable for an interviewer to notice my dress and what it says about me. Dress reasonably professionally and appropriately and it won't be a problem.
For me to try to figure out today's sneakers would just be a disaster. I have good business casual shoes and they'll do fine.
My point was, it is reasonable for an interviewer to notice my dress and what it says about me. Dress reasonably professionally and appropriately and it won't be a problem.
For me to try to figure out today's sneakers would just be a disaster. I have good business casual shoes and they'll do fine.
It might be reasonable for an interview to notice how you dress. It's certainly not reasonable for an interviewer to discriminate against you because you don't dress like a 25 y/o. The article is about age discrimination.
Given that age discrimination is real, blind interviews could potentially help reduce the effects.
Given that age discrimination is real, blind interviews could potentially help reduce the effects.
They're AARP, noticing age discrimination is their mission. Myself, I don't see much of it out there.
"Blind" interviews would be bad for everybody. Zoom is already bad enough. There is an enormous amount of information conveyed by facial expression. I can tell by the look on your face if you aren't following me, or if you are super in-tune with it and I get more complicated still.
If we're going to generalize, I suspect that most older candidates would be better at reading and reacting to such nonverbal signals.
"Blind" interviews would be bad for everybody. Zoom is already bad enough. There is an enormous amount of information conveyed by facial expression. I can tell by the look on your face if you aren't following me, or if you are super in-tune with it and I get more complicated still.
If we're going to generalize, I suspect that most older candidates would be better at reading and reacting to such nonverbal signals.
_”basic professionalism”_ means different things for different people.
For me it means show up on time. If it is an online interview, one or two minutes late is ok because sometimes Zoom/Google Meet/etc behave weirdly. As for dress code, it just mean not showing up in pijama or similar. If the clothes are socially acceptable to wear in public, that’s enough professionalism. Style is just personal preference, not professionalism.
For me it means show up on time. If it is an online interview, one or two minutes late is ok because sometimes Zoom/Google Meet/etc behave weirdly. As for dress code, it just mean not showing up in pijama or similar. If the clothes are socially acceptable to wear in public, that’s enough professionalism. Style is just personal preference, not professionalism.
I don’t know about you, but I just interviewed in a black tshirt at FAANG and got an offer. What does dress have to do with anything?
That is 'properly' in these parts.
FAANGs have been very liberal about that for many years now, I don't think that is a good example.
Interview in a suit & tie, as a dev, next time, and see what happens.
Casual IS the office wear at FAANGs.
Business is very much NOT hip, and you'll get to notice that.
Casual IS the office wear at FAANGs.
Business is very much NOT hip, and you'll get to notice that.
[deleted]
> If someone can't be bothered to dress properly, why would they bother to conform with any other workplace norm?
> Really this is basic professionalism.
Hmmmmmmmm.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000011.h...
> My gym just fired the opening gun in a new skirmish, by posting dozens of signs reading "All lockers must be emptied of its contents by August 22 at 5:00 p.m."
> Someone has learned, from the "singular their" fuss, a lesson that no one wanted to teach: Universally quantified ancedents should get singular pronouns. Or something like that.
> This is clearly a case of hypercorrection. However, it's not clear which side has gained: the prescriptivists can claim (correctly?) that even their opponents surely agree that THIS is a mistake; the anti-prescriptivists can counter that pedantry is the root cause of the error.
> It's interesting that everyone, prescriptivists and anti-prescriptivists alike, seems to think that hypercorrection is wrong, morally as well as logically. For the prescriptivists, any form that deviates from a postulated universal standard is wrong.. For (at least some of) their opponents, use makes right, as long as you conform to your own group's norms -- but it's a sin to imitate the norms of a more prestigious group, if you get it wrong. On this point, the prescriptivists seem to me to be fairer and more democratic in their attitudes, even if their particular prescriptions are often foolish.
I once read an article breaking the hard-hitting (and outrageous!) news that the Dallas Cowboys provide their cheerleaders with a handbook on how to dress appropriately, groom appropriately, and maintain a standard of personal hygiene that is adequate for "polite company". I had a similar reaction to that as Mark Liberman had to the descriptivist attitude toward hypercorrection.
Do you want to judge your candidates by how willing and able they are to conform to workplace dress norms? Then include an attachment when you invite them for an interview specifying how you want them to dress.
Or is it more that you're uncomfortable with the idea of hiring someone who doesn't know -- as they obviously should -- what you feel is appropriate in your employees' dress?
> Really this is basic professionalism.
Hmmmmmmmm.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000011.h...
> My gym just fired the opening gun in a new skirmish, by posting dozens of signs reading "All lockers must be emptied of its contents by August 22 at 5:00 p.m."
> Someone has learned, from the "singular their" fuss, a lesson that no one wanted to teach: Universally quantified ancedents should get singular pronouns. Or something like that.
> This is clearly a case of hypercorrection. However, it's not clear which side has gained: the prescriptivists can claim (correctly?) that even their opponents surely agree that THIS is a mistake; the anti-prescriptivists can counter that pedantry is the root cause of the error.
> It's interesting that everyone, prescriptivists and anti-prescriptivists alike, seems to think that hypercorrection is wrong, morally as well as logically. For the prescriptivists, any form that deviates from a postulated universal standard is wrong.. For (at least some of) their opponents, use makes right, as long as you conform to your own group's norms -- but it's a sin to imitate the norms of a more prestigious group, if you get it wrong. On this point, the prescriptivists seem to me to be fairer and more democratic in their attitudes, even if their particular prescriptions are often foolish.
I once read an article breaking the hard-hitting (and outrageous!) news that the Dallas Cowboys provide their cheerleaders with a handbook on how to dress appropriately, groom appropriately, and maintain a standard of personal hygiene that is adequate for "polite company". I had a similar reaction to that as Mark Liberman had to the descriptivist attitude toward hypercorrection.
Do you want to judge your candidates by how willing and able they are to conform to workplace dress norms? Then include an attachment when you invite them for an interview specifying how you want them to dress.
Or is it more that you're uncomfortable with the idea of hiring someone who doesn't know -- as they obviously should -- what you feel is appropriate in your employees' dress?
This is the equivalent of saying “try looking sexy, women, maybe you’ll get hired.”
It might work, it may be needed, but it’s embarrassing if so.
The sad reality is that if you’re over 50 you need to be applying to positions that are “age appropriate” which usually implies management.
It might work, it may be needed, but it’s embarrassing if so.
The sad reality is that if you’re over 50 you need to be applying to positions that are “age appropriate” which usually implies management.
> This is the equivalent of saying “try looking sexy, women, maybe you’ll get hired.”
That’s not really fair (and largely not true.)
What it’s saying is that appearances matter - they’re an important non-verbal signaling channel, and to the extent to which one can control the way you present, you should, and secondly, dress for the job you want.
For both men and women that does not mean dress like you’re going to a club. It is also an admission that even the best of us subconsciously treat attractive people as more competent.
I’m old enough to have worked during an era when you wore a suit and a tie to an interview for any position. If I showed up for a senior role at a startup wearing a suit and tie I would be telling them from the get go that I’m either I’m out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or I choose to differentiate myself (maybe I’m a lawyer or an accountant.)
Finally, as an example in my case - I am over fifty and overweight, but I am tall. I know (from mirrors) that I look better standing than sitting, so when in person interviewing I try to be standing when people enter the room simply because I get the difference between “former football player” and “fat slob”. Does it bother me? Yes and no. Ultimately I need to be able to deliver the goods, it’s nice not to have to fight through preconceptions.
That’s not really fair (and largely not true.)
What it’s saying is that appearances matter - they’re an important non-verbal signaling channel, and to the extent to which one can control the way you present, you should, and secondly, dress for the job you want.
For both men and women that does not mean dress like you’re going to a club. It is also an admission that even the best of us subconsciously treat attractive people as more competent.
I’m old enough to have worked during an era when you wore a suit and a tie to an interview for any position. If I showed up for a senior role at a startup wearing a suit and tie I would be telling them from the get go that I’m either I’m out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or I choose to differentiate myself (maybe I’m a lawyer or an accountant.)
Finally, as an example in my case - I am over fifty and overweight, but I am tall. I know (from mirrors) that I look better standing than sitting, so when in person interviewing I try to be standing when people enter the room simply because I get the difference between “former football player” and “fat slob”. Does it bother me? Yes and no. Ultimately I need to be able to deliver the goods, it’s nice not to have to fight through preconceptions.
>even the best of us subconsciously treat attractive people as more competent. //
People who clearly spend/spent a lot of time on their appearance suggests to me that they're trying to use some sort of "trick" to get ahead and that this probably means they're less competent than their peers.
It's like charities that give you a pen, or small quantity of money (bear with me) ... Yes, I know that psychological trick and it strictly suggests to me that yours is a charity I should not donate to.
The whole "dress for the job you want", for example, is really "use people's prejudices to trick them into unconsciously overestimating your competence".
Sadly, marketing tricks (ie the hostile use of psychology) work on all of us, even sometimes when we know we're being tricked. Participating in that kind of thing is a red flag to me.
The "former football player" vs "fat slob" part of your comment suggests you view [or are accommodating others that view] unrelated externalities as more important than intrinsic qualities related directly to the work. That's not uncommon, but it seems like something we need to mature beyond.
>I’m out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or I choose to differentiate myself //
This seems really sad to me, like a person likes to wear a tie and that's so out there you'd consider you can't work with them? Like, what if they were actually different: came from a different place, spoke different languages, had different body parts? Especially if you're coding, what's it matter if you like to wear a formal thawb (Middle-eastern robe) and they wear Hawaiian shirts and board shorts?
I'm not saying people won't judge you, just that it's wrong.
People who clearly spend/spent a lot of time on their appearance suggests to me that they're trying to use some sort of "trick" to get ahead and that this probably means they're less competent than their peers.
It's like charities that give you a pen, or small quantity of money (bear with me) ... Yes, I know that psychological trick and it strictly suggests to me that yours is a charity I should not donate to.
The whole "dress for the job you want", for example, is really "use people's prejudices to trick them into unconsciously overestimating your competence".
Sadly, marketing tricks (ie the hostile use of psychology) work on all of us, even sometimes when we know we're being tricked. Participating in that kind of thing is a red flag to me.
The "former football player" vs "fat slob" part of your comment suggests you view [or are accommodating others that view] unrelated externalities as more important than intrinsic qualities related directly to the work. That's not uncommon, but it seems like something we need to mature beyond.
>I’m out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or I choose to differentiate myself //
This seems really sad to me, like a person likes to wear a tie and that's so out there you'd consider you can't work with them? Like, what if they were actually different: came from a different place, spoke different languages, had different body parts? Especially if you're coding, what's it matter if you like to wear a formal thawb (Middle-eastern robe) and they wear Hawaiian shirts and board shorts?
I'm not saying people won't judge you, just that it's wrong.
But that way of thinking cuts both ways. “He’s not even using the most basic forms of marketing tricks. How socially inept this person must be. How can I trust that he writes maintainable code if he’s not aware of these very basic human triggers?”
Hum... While I agree with it, your comment doesn't bring any reason for people not to dress up to that.
Yes, the people that choose based on it are stupid, and it's a good reason for rejecting the places (and you may refuse just to run the test). But you personally isn't losing anything by looking more "whatever those people are selecting for (not competence, that's for sure)", so it is good advice.
Yes, the people that choose based on it are stupid, and it's a good reason for rejecting the places (and you may refuse just to run the test). But you personally isn't losing anything by looking more "whatever those people are selecting for (not competence, that's for sure)", so it is good advice.
> That's not uncommon, but it seems like something we need to mature beyond.
Wishful thinking won't help in real life, though.
We should:
* stop drinking alcohol
* stop smoking tobacco
* stop consuming any kind of addictive and harmful substance, such as: hard drugs, light drugs, caffeine, massive quantities of sugar, etc
* start sleeping more
* start working out more
* stop using fossil fuels
* stop using plastics
...
Wishful thinking won't help in real life, though.
We should:
* stop drinking alcohol
* stop smoking tobacco
* stop consuming any kind of addictive and harmful substance, such as: hard drugs, light drugs, caffeine, massive quantities of sugar, etc
* start sleeping more
* start working out more
* stop using fossil fuels
* stop using plastics
...
> The sad reality is that if you’re over 50 you need to be applying to positions that are “age appropriate”
This is BS advice - the appropriate position is one that you like and you have the skills for. I mean, rephrase that and you can see just how discriminatory it is - “women should apply to gender appropriate positions, not programmers”. You see how terrible that sounds.
This is BS advice - the appropriate position is one that you like and you have the skills for. I mean, rephrase that and you can see just how discriminatory it is - “women should apply to gender appropriate positions, not programmers”. You see how terrible that sounds.
It’s a statement of how it is, not how it should be. Once you’re outside of expectations you get a much harder row to hoe.
Which can be somewhat countered by having a solid network by that time rolls around.
Which can be somewhat countered by having a solid network by that time rolls around.
>positions that are “age appropriate” which usually implies management
There are and always have been many many ICs over 50, what a ridiculous stereotype to propagate.
There are and always have been many many ICs over 50, what a ridiculous stereotype to propagate.
Unfortunately, I think moving up the hierarchy is one of the biggest security blankets as you get older. No one seems to question when a VP, CFO, or CEO is 50+. Age seems to be an asset in this case.
That’s ridiculous. I’m over 50 and I would be a terrible manager. My sweet spot is as an individual contributor.
Fortunately, the company I work for recognizes that people can take their careers in either a vertical (management) or horizontal (increasing skill set and depth of knowledge) direction and are okay with everyone choosing the direction that best fits their interests, personalities, goals, etc.
Fortunately, the company I work for recognizes that people can take their careers in either a vertical (management) or horizontal (increasing skill set and depth of knowledge) direction and are okay with everyone choosing the direction that best fits their interests, personalities, goals, etc.
> The sad reality is that if you’re over 50 you need to be applying to positions that are “age appropriate” which usually implies management.
Nope. My LinkedIn dates me by college graduation date, but it still generates 2-3 inquiries a day for engineering roles. My background has certain trendy buzzwords and the recruiters are interested.
As far I can tell, employers are looking for skills and attitude, and don't much care about anything else.
Would a startup want me? Dunno, haven't tried in a while.
Nope. My LinkedIn dates me by college graduation date, but it still generates 2-3 inquiries a day for engineering roles. My background has certain trendy buzzwords and the recruiters are interested.
As far I can tell, employers are looking for skills and attitude, and don't much care about anything else.
Would a startup want me? Dunno, haven't tried in a while.
Getting messages from spammy recruiters is a poor signal about whether you will get hired. Recruiters cast a wide net.
Anecdote: I’ve gotten messages from internal recruiters twice on LinkedIn from Amazon Retail about “exiting opportunities” - while working at AWS. It’s clearly stated on my profile where I work.
Anecdote: I’ve gotten messages from internal recruiters twice on LinkedIn from Amazon Retail about “exiting opportunities” - while working at AWS. It’s clearly stated on my profile where I work.
> The sad reality is that if you’re over 50 you need to be applying to positions that are “age appropriate” which usually implies management.
Wouldn’t this be like misogynisticly saying:
“The sad reality is that if you’re female you need to be applying to positions that are “gender appropriate” which usually implies clerical/secretary.” ?
Apologies if I didn’t understand what you were really trying to convey. The opening argument was non-sequitur with your closing statement.
Wouldn’t this be like misogynisticly saying:
“The sad reality is that if you’re female you need to be applying to positions that are “gender appropriate” which usually implies clerical/secretary.” ?
Apologies if I didn’t understand what you were really trying to convey. The opening argument was non-sequitur with your closing statement.
nowdays you have the new york times advocating to get rid of blind auditions because they don't produce enough diversity! https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
https://archive.ph/b5f9s
To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions
If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.
To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions
If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.
Blind auditions only get rid of one aspect of discrimination. However, when the pipeline is starved because of too few role models in their communities due to historical prejudice, blind auditions become self-defeating and self-reinforcing. The top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability (equivalent to an Ivy League applicant pool being all straight-As), so maybe it's time to focus on other aspects like increasing diversity so that more kids have role models to look up to.
Of course, you would know all this if you read the article instead of using it as some kind of "gotcha" that minorities aren't up to snuff musically.
Of course, you would know all this if you read the article instead of using it as some kind of "gotcha" that minorities aren't up to snuff musically.
I think you're displaying an unconscious bias here by implying the 'top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability' and that this somehow excludes various groups from that pool. First, that claim is highly questionable, and second, you are implying that some groups are less talented than others based solely on their identity. This kind of bias is rather common, it's rather redolant of paternalistic attitudes towards 'naturally inferior groups' who need 'inclusive policies' because they just can't make the grade on their own.
If you happen to be unfamiliar with this argument, I'd recommend this: https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news
If you happen to be unfamiliar with this argument, I'd recommend this: https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news
I don't think that's quite what he said.
I think he was saying that the top tier of current trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying population because of past biases in selection, and that making a blind selection from that pool likely perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them being in this pool.
I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy problem but it deserves thought and consideration.
I think he was saying that the top tier of current trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying population because of past biases in selection, and that making a blind selection from that pool likely perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them being in this pool.
I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy problem but it deserves thought and consideration.
Not less talented, but certainly less able to spend time practicing(as a population) and without as many role models that look like them.
One sees this a lot, but why do you filter interest in subjects by how much the proponents look like you -- don't you find it really limiting? In practice, how does this work, do you get in to someone's thing and then think "hang on, they're not like me, better stop being inspired".
For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all.
Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you explain that? Is it prejudice?
For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all.
Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you explain that? Is it prejudice?
> For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all.
And, if you're privileged-- society has given you the message you can do whatever you want-- that's OK.
If you're in a system with racism embedded into various parts-- one rationally wonders: is there no one like me up there because there's racism filtering it? Is someone at a music school, competition, or academy, somewhere along the way going to decide that I don't really look like someone who's a top-tier violinist and going to exclude me (based on this same logic, in part)? If so, it might be better to select myself out before dedicating a whole lot of resources.
And, if you're privileged-- society has given you the message you can do whatever you want-- that's OK.
If you're in a system with racism embedded into various parts-- one rationally wonders: is there no one like me up there because there's racism filtering it? Is someone at a music school, competition, or academy, somewhere along the way going to decide that I don't really look like someone who's a top-tier violinist and going to exclude me (based on this same logic, in part)? If so, it might be better to select myself out before dedicating a whole lot of resources.
We’re not talking about being inspired. We’re talking about things like access to resources, time to spend learning and practicing, and the availability of people who can mentor you.
There needs to be more focus on improving the inputs to the pipeline. But that could take generations, and people are looking for quick fixes right now.
After reading the article you make still less sense.
The article says that blind auditions dramatically increased the proportion of women players. It does not explain why this effect wouldn't apply to other "under-represented" groups.
Clearly some applicants are _not_ "virtually identical in ability" with other applicants.
The article says that blind auditions dramatically increased the proportion of women players. It does not explain why this effect wouldn't apply to other "under-represented" groups.
Clearly some applicants are _not_ "virtually identical in ability" with other applicants.
Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital and how it relates to white privilege.
See, the parents of white (and Asian) kids have, or can buy, access to social networks that underrepresented groups (particularly black and indigenous) are systematically excluded from. That gets the white and Asian kids into better music schools and affords them more opportunities to get good enough to audition to major orchestras, as well as exposure within the classical-music world so people know who they are. This has the effect of reinforcing a certain racial profile for classical musicians.
The solution to this problem has been known since the initial civil rights movement in the USA at least: affirmative action. Unfortunately that means denying really talented white and Asian musicians orchestra seats, so that talented people of other communities have a shot at the levels of achievement and recognition whites have taken for granted. But ultimately, it's for the greater good.
See, the parents of white (and Asian) kids have, or can buy, access to social networks that underrepresented groups (particularly black and indigenous) are systematically excluded from. That gets the white and Asian kids into better music schools and affords them more opportunities to get good enough to audition to major orchestras, as well as exposure within the classical-music world so people know who they are. This has the effect of reinforcing a certain racial profile for classical musicians.
The solution to this problem has been known since the initial civil rights movement in the USA at least: affirmative action. Unfortunately that means denying really talented white and Asian musicians orchestra seats, so that talented people of other communities have a shot at the levels of achievement and recognition whites have taken for granted. But ultimately, it's for the greater good.
> Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital and how it relates to white privilege.
It is amazing how progressives assume the problem is the ignorance and stupidity of their opponents.
But, it is good to get the real argument out in the open.
It is amazing how progressives assume the problem is the ignorance and stupidity of their opponents.
But, it is good to get the real argument out in the open.
Do you think there will be a push for affirmative action to increase the number of male students at colleges and universities?
I think we all know the answer.
There might be a push, but its success is doubtful. Too many entrenched interests and theories that back them (glass ceiling, gender gap) would be threatened by such development.
The only thing that could actually move the needle is the fact that with a highly skewed sex ratio on campus, female students will find their dating experience unsatisfactory. People place high premium on finding a suitable mate.
There might be a push, but its success is doubtful. Too many entrenched interests and theories that back them (glass ceiling, gender gap) would be threatened by such development.
The only thing that could actually move the needle is the fact that with a highly skewed sex ratio on campus, female students will find their dating experience unsatisfactory. People place high premium on finding a suitable mate.
Huh? It's already happening. It's not labeled AA, but admissions officers do it anyway because women don't want to attend universities where they are a significant majority.
How do you know it's social capital and not other factors influencing what schools the kids go to?
Aka, let me introduce you to why the Democrats are going to get pummeled in the upcoming midterms.
Tale old as time - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/white-back...
As an obese person, a big advantage of the Zoom/WFH era is that people usually just see your head and shoulders, so won't judge you on the size of your belly (or the clothes that never fit us fatties well)
This is true.
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You sound like a lovely person. There are other factors in obesity other than personal choice. Judging a person solely by their weight and not their abilities is so short-sighted. What if you hire someone who looks great and spends all of their time at the gym, and are as dumb as dirt.
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Back when I was a hiring manager I also asked my recruiters to obscure the name of the candidate. E.g. always referring to them by their initials and blacking out their name on their resume. I was thinking about the experiment [1] where researchers found that the whiteness of your name affected how likely companies were to follow-up to your job application.
+1 to the general idea that the interview process should remove as much unconscious bias as possible.
[1] If I recall correctly the researchers submitted the exact same resume to many companies. The only variable was the name. E.g. "John Franklin" versus "Imani Jordan".
+1 to the general idea that the interview process should remove as much unconscious bias as possible.
[1] If I recall correctly the researchers submitted the exact same resume to many companies. The only variable was the name. E.g. "John Franklin" versus "Imani Jordan".
> unconscious bias
When did this become an accepted term? I didn't know our science had advanced enough to explain how unconscious bias happens. AFAIK we can run some experiments and observe results, but can't explain the underlying biology as to why we observed those results.
When did this become an accepted term? I didn't know our science had advanced enough to explain how unconscious bias happens. AFAIK we can run some experiments and observe results, but can't explain the underlying biology as to why we observed those results.
If you asked the interviewers, they would generally say that they’re unaware of themselves being biased, thereby making their bias unconscious.
> Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
> https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impac...
That study made a big splash with a lot of claims that were unconnected to the data.
https://jsmp.dk/posts/2019-05-12-blindauditions/
The number of female musicians in orchestras increased, but we can't actually attribute that to the audition process.
> https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impac...
That study made a big splash with a lot of claims that were unconnected to the data.
https://jsmp.dk/posts/2019-05-12-blindauditions/
The number of female musicians in orchestras increased, but we can't actually attribute that to the audition process.
> Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
This is incorrect, see https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-...
This is incorrect, see https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-...
That blog post isn't nearly strong enough to support the statement that "this is incorrect".
The conclusion of the unrefereed blog post is merely the much more equivocal:
" What about that much-publicized “50 percent” claim, or for that matter the not-so-well-publicized but even more dramatic “increases by severalfold”? I have no idea. I’ll reserve judgment until someone can show me where that result appears in the published paper. It’s gotta be there somewhere."
The conclusion of the unrefereed blog post is merely the much more equivocal:
" What about that much-publicized “50 percent” claim, or for that matter the not-so-well-publicized but even more dramatic “increases by severalfold”? I have no idea. I’ll reserve judgment until someone can show me where that result appears in the published paper. It’s gotta be there somewhere."
You should have quoted the sentence just before:
> I agree that blind auditions can make sense—even if they do not have the large effects claimed in that 2000 paper, or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects on men and women at all.
so, what the OP said
> Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
is incorrect because quoting again from the article:
> or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects on men and women at all.
> I agree that blind auditions can make sense—even if they do not have the large effects claimed in that 2000 paper, or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects on men and women at all.
so, what the OP said
> Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
is incorrect because quoting again from the article:
> or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects on men and women at all.
A clause that begins with "even if" is a hypothetical and should not be taken as declarative. The author is saying that they don't know whether the number in question is correct, they're not saying that they believe it to be incorrect. Hence "I’ll reserve judgment".
The bit starting with "even if" is just saying that it doesn't matter to them: either way they're still in favor of blind auditions.
The bit starting with "even if" is just saying that it doesn't matter to them: either way they're still in favor of blind auditions.
> Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically increased the number of female musicians.
Sadly, there's talk of going back to sighted auditions:
See: https://americanorchestras.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Re...
and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
Sadly, there's talk of going back to sighted auditions:
See: https://americanorchestras.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Re...
and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
Voice can carry a fair amount of information about someone's mindset. Arrogance, uplifting spirit, bad mood.. that said most of it is irrelevant unless you're on the spot. Hiring processes should focus on that.
You okay the cards that you are dealt. I met a former manager for lunch one day and he told me how surprised he was that I was “over 35” at the time I was 45.
I found out that most non-Blacks have no idea how old a Black guy is that is cleaned shaven. I don’t have any of the signs when I keep my hair cut off - no gray hair or receding hair line.
It’s much more culturally acceptable for Black guys to shave their heads.
I found out that most non-Blacks have no idea how old a Black guy is that is cleaned shaven. I don’t have any of the signs when I keep my hair cut off - no gray hair or receding hair line.
It’s much more culturally acceptable for Black guys to shave their heads.
I try to do voice-only calls wherever possible, especially for hiring. (and text > voice!). Especially for initial screening; less annoying as the hiring manager, and also protects us somewhat from some discrimination claims (obviously only one element of that, and neither necessary nor sufficient on its own)
"Read this source code and tell me the age of the person who wrote it, when it was written."
The age of the coder is directly proportional to the number of comments included in the code.
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I disagree that it's terrible. If someone 23 years old came into a job interview wearing mid 20th century business attire and hair/glasses while everyone else was adopting modern dress, I think all else equal that should count against him. Old age is not excuse for knowing how to fit in with the things you have the power to change.
Mid 20th century business attire for men is very much out, but for women it would register as hip and fashionable.
Only in the tech sector do we think we should be able to show up with a T-shirt and greasy hair.
Looks/hygiene/culture fit is important and there isn't a single field where it isn't.
If you can be bothered to try to fit in a little bit, it goes a long way. Otherwise, feel free to be unemployed and bitch about it in your basement while the world moves on.
Looks/hygiene/culture fit is important and there isn't a single field where it isn't.
If you can be bothered to try to fit in a little bit, it goes a long way. Otherwise, feel free to be unemployed and bitch about it in your basement while the world moves on.
T-shirt and greasy hair are as much a uniform and a declaration of tribal orientation as a business suit is.
Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such.
It's also one of the covert reasons age is an issue. It's not about competence, it's about the fact that it's very difficult to have equal relationships with people who are the same age as your parents or kids. An age gap that wide goes with a generation gap in expected behaviours, cultural references, implied ethics - and more, including default problem solving habits.
It would be good if this wasn't true, but it's hard to see how it can be avoided. It would take extremely unusual maturity and self-awareness not to be influenced by it in either direction.
It's not that it can't be made to work, but I don't think it can be made to work easily. It's an extra level of friction, which is why it's an unpopular option when hiring teams.
TBH I suspect that anyone over - say - 40 is probably best off hiring themselves out as a consultant rather than trying to find work as a full-timer on a relatively young team. Consultancy isn't just professionally distinct, it creates a different social dynamic which seems to be easier for everyone.
Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such.
It's also one of the covert reasons age is an issue. It's not about competence, it's about the fact that it's very difficult to have equal relationships with people who are the same age as your parents or kids. An age gap that wide goes with a generation gap in expected behaviours, cultural references, implied ethics - and more, including default problem solving habits.
It would be good if this wasn't true, but it's hard to see how it can be avoided. It would take extremely unusual maturity and self-awareness not to be influenced by it in either direction.
It's not that it can't be made to work, but I don't think it can be made to work easily. It's an extra level of friction, which is why it's an unpopular option when hiring teams.
TBH I suspect that anyone over - say - 40 is probably best off hiring themselves out as a consultant rather than trying to find work as a full-timer on a relatively young team. Consultancy isn't just professionally distinct, it creates a different social dynamic which seems to be easier for everyone.
I agree that the scruffy tech is a uniform of it's own. I used to do it consciously myself, partly as a "joking but really". Different images for different audiences or different aims.
As for friction, that diversity should be actively saught, not allowed through blindness.
That friction and diversity of approach and standards and reasoning is a good thing. I'm over 50 now so now I'm almost not allowed to express such reasoning because it is taken as self serving, but when I was 30 the old-timers in my shop were the people I admired the most, still do. Even though yes there were a few differences of opinion and approach that never really went away. I picked my battles instead of being a baby about every single thing, and they in turn actually respected my input when I decided to take stance on something, state my case, and force us both to explain and defend the different positions and hash it out. Either I convinced them or they convinced me, and whichever way that went, we did that.
There were a few things where neither convinced the other, but, really very few. It's tolerable and worth it. I got way more out of working with these people, and so did the company and our customers.
I don't think I was a incredibly mature 30 year old. I mean, I've seen some of my old newsgroup posts. I really wasn't :)
As for friction, that diversity should be actively saught, not allowed through blindness.
That friction and diversity of approach and standards and reasoning is a good thing. I'm over 50 now so now I'm almost not allowed to express such reasoning because it is taken as self serving, but when I was 30 the old-timers in my shop were the people I admired the most, still do. Even though yes there were a few differences of opinion and approach that never really went away. I picked my battles instead of being a baby about every single thing, and they in turn actually respected my input when I decided to take stance on something, state my case, and force us both to explain and defend the different positions and hash it out. Either I convinced them or they convinced me, and whichever way that went, we did that.
There were a few things where neither convinced the other, but, really very few. It's tolerable and worth it. I got way more out of working with these people, and so did the company and our customers.
I don't think I was a incredibly mature 30 year old. I mean, I've seen some of my old newsgroup posts. I really wasn't :)
> Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether or not they're formally labelled as such.
As a product of the 1960s there was a reaction by lefty columnist Paul Krassner, IIRC. He referred (if it wasn't someone else who popularized this) to grey flannel sandals. A take-off on the standard criticism of "grey flannel suits.
As a product of the 1960s there was a reaction by lefty columnist Paul Krassner, IIRC. He referred (if it wasn't someone else who popularized this) to grey flannel sandals. A take-off on the standard criticism of "grey flannel suits.
???
Showing up not looking like this, can also cause you to not get hired. Discrimination on non-performance factors is real on all sides of the fence.
Anyway this isn’t the point; the point was that it’s sad you need to hide your age using clothing.
Showing up not looking like this, can also cause you to not get hired. Discrimination on non-performance factors is real on all sides of the fence.
Anyway this isn’t the point; the point was that it’s sad you need to hide your age using clothing.
It not hiding your age. It's showing that you are still in touch with new things and able to go with the flow. It's not even that hard. If you're 55, just don't show up with a baggy suit and fat tie you bought in the 80s. This is good advice for anyone - know how to dress for an interview.
I've openly heard managers talk about "experience" in sub for age, eg: "I think this person has too much experience for this role" (when talking about a very senior role).
My best advice is to engage HR right away if you hear this kind of stuff. A fair amount of HR folks are older and will jump right on this kind of behavior.
My best advice is to engage HR right away if you hear this kind of stuff. A fair amount of HR folks are older and will jump right on this kind of behavior.
It's funny because I would interpret those exact words "I think this person has too much experience for this role", as "The budget I have for the position is not enough to afford this person".
But maybe you're right that it's ageism and I just assume the best in people.
But maybe you're right that it's ageism and I just assume the best in people.
I second your take. I have a lot of experience. I want to get paid for it. If you don't need that much experience, you probably don't want to pay my price.
I don't think those hiring should make any such assumptions.
I have lots of experience. I'd like to get paid accordingly, but
* my mortgage is long-since paid off
* my kids are grown and independant (no more school fees, university costs)
* my car is paid for
With lower expenses I can afford to accept less money, provided it means an interesting work opportunity.
So don't just assume that I'd demand more money. Ask. Maybe there's some middle ground where we can meet. Are you flexible enough?
I have lots of experience. I'd like to get paid accordingly, but
* my mortgage is long-since paid off
* my kids are grown and independant (no more school fees, university costs)
* my car is paid for
With lower expenses I can afford to accept less money, provided it means an interesting work opportunity.
So don't just assume that I'd demand more money. Ask. Maybe there's some middle ground where we can meet. Are you flexible enough?
I have a lot of experience but didn't hob hop along with my peers so my current pay is well below market levels.
I would happily consider an offer that matches my experience and aspirations from a job role perspective even if the pay doesn't match the currently overheated market.
I would happily consider an offer that matches my experience and aspirations from a job role perspective even if the pay doesn't match the currently overheated market.
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Similarly, I've seen candidates ruled out because they have a lot of experience without career progression after a certain point - "ah, he's been in the same senior role for 8 years? Must be something wrong with him"
This is odd considering that "senior" is a terminal role in a lot of places.
Why work for/under people who would do you that way? There's plenty of money to be made out there. If I have too much "experience," they'll just have to miss out on it.
I'm a lead. Getting another lead role would be difficult. Managers in tech are uniformly bad in my experience. If I don't tolerate this then I'll have to tolerate some other form of ridiculousness, but while I'm young I can listen for the dog whistles and report them.
Edit: these kinds of managers will always screw you one day; usually that day is a day when your interests aren't as useful to them. It's a mentality (and behavior pattern) that Succession does a fantastic job of roasting. The trick is to read the writing on the wall and the room, find a new job, and bring all the homies.
This is why I refer to software as a team sport.
Edit: these kinds of managers will always screw you one day; usually that day is a day when your interests aren't as useful to them. It's a mentality (and behavior pattern) that Succession does a fantastic job of roasting. The trick is to read the writing on the wall and the room, find a new job, and bring all the homies.
This is why I refer to software as a team sport.
The guy in the top picture looks like he's just cleaned out his desk after being laid off.
Caption is:
a man is smiling while holding a box outside of an elevator
Either he is relieved and happy to go elsewhere or he is still shocked (as he seemingly forgot his jacket).
More seriously, while I can understand how to "fill" the page an image is sometimes needed, I seem to notice that lately a lot of pages sport these "vague" stock images that mean nothing or nothing connected to the actual article/theme discussed.
a man is smiling while holding a box outside of an elevator
Either he is relieved and happy to go elsewhere or he is still shocked (as he seemingly forgot his jacket).
More seriously, while I can understand how to "fill" the page an image is sometimes needed, I seem to notice that lately a lot of pages sport these "vague" stock images that mean nothing or nothing connected to the actual article/theme discussed.
I was once 'laid off' early from a consulting contract that was renewed too many times. I was approached very sensitively to be handed the 'bad news' and my immediate response was "fantastic" since I'd been bored to tears for months at my desk looking/waiting for more work.
The odd bit was that they had used some data of my web browsing habits during this downtime as being against policy to cover their asses. So technically I was let go for 'doing math' at work found on Project Euler[0].
[0] https://projecteuler.net/
The odd bit was that they had used some data of my web browsing habits during this downtime as being against policy to cover their asses. So technically I was let go for 'doing math' at work found on Project Euler[0].
[0] https://projecteuler.net/
The smile says he welcomed the severance package though!
Maybe it's his first day at the new job
Honest question: with all the talk about brain elasticity being super slow compared to a twenty year old, how the heck are 50+ year olds able to pass leetcoding? Interviewers expect answers within 30 min to 1 hr. I'd imagine older people would have better things to do with their limited free time than to waste efforts on the computer leetcoding.
To me, leetcoding is just another one of those gatekeeping tactics employed by the industry to keep old folks out.
To me, leetcoding is just another one of those gatekeeping tactics employed by the industry to keep old folks out.
I hate to keep beating the same dead horse. But when I was looking for the next stage of my career after my (step)sons graduated and I could move anywhere, I knew there had to be some kind of way that I could show companies what I could offer them without going through the leetCode monkey dance.
By 2014, I was talking to CxOs , directors etc at smaller companies who were looking for experienced individual contributors who could get things done through a combination of technical experience and soft skills.
I “put myself out of a job” at three companies once I brought in the process improvements and upskilked the department and then landed a job at BigTech in the cloud consulting department where I still consult/implement “cloud native applications”. I didn’t write a line of code during my loop. I spoke to the interviewers about my experience and we spoke like experienced professionals.
By 2014, I was talking to CxOs , directors etc at smaller companies who were looking for experienced individual contributors who could get things done through a combination of technical experience and soft skills.
I “put myself out of a job” at three companies once I brought in the process improvements and upskilked the department and then landed a job at BigTech in the cloud consulting department where I still consult/implement “cloud native applications”. I didn’t write a line of code during my loop. I spoke to the interviewers about my experience and we spoke like experienced professionals.
There are a thousand reasons not to go in the front door, and ageism is just one of them. Getting jobs by creating relationships where both you and the hiring manager gets their problem solved is the workaround for incompetent HR departments.
I am 50+ and have zero problems competing with younger developers. While they are busy making things as complex as possible, and spend most of their time fixing self-inflicted problems/bugs, I have already finished my task and moved on to the next. I spend almost all my time adding new features, and have close to zero bugs in production. 25+ years of experience solving hard problems in different software domains is a super power. The secret is to brutally strike down and destroy without mercy complexity whenever it shows it’s ugly head. Complexity is the enemy. Learn to recognise it and be merciless in cutting it out.
I’ve found it interesting that smart young startup entrepreneurs see a resume that has over 20 years experience and instead of seeing a dinosaur they see the experience and future guidance to help them in their endeavors.
For developers, I mostly see non-consensus opinions getting them axed.
Like okay, you can’t really claim age discrimination when you spent the last 20 minutes railing against javascript and single page applications
Like okay, you can’t really claim age discrimination when you spent the last 20 minutes railing against javascript and single page applications
OTOH, I wouldn't hire anybody who thought JS was some kind of perfection and that chasing frameworks was the way things should be. I may not want to hear 10 minutes of bitching about SPAs, but I'd love to have a two minute rant about how much callbacks suck sometimes, and how promises are better but not better, and async is lipstick on a pig. I like skepticism as long as it doesn't result in refusal to work with a particular technology, and when it's backed up by knowledge.
Tech is rife with ageism, if at least 5% of the outrage reserved for gender issues were pushed to ageism it might progress beyond the dark ages.
This advice is far too generic to be of much use to software engineers or any other specific profession, I'm afraid. The only probably useful hint is to not look old by using means of communication that peaked in popularity long time ago.
I don't know about secrets, but this is my five-part plan for getting hired after fifty:
1. Know Cobol
2. Know JCL
3. Know ISPF
4. Know Rexx
5. Know EZY
Oh, btw:
>> 5. Polish Up Your Appearance
Wahahahaha.
A joke, right?
1. Know Cobol
2. Know JCL
3. Know ISPF
4. Know Rexx
5. Know EZY
Oh, btw:
>> 5. Polish Up Your Appearance
Wahahahaha.
A joke, right?
[deleted]
I have to think there is some sort of decently lucrative niche that could combine a legacy software stack plus cloud deployment knowledge. Something like:
- Deploy an enterprise Cobol banking application using Kubernetes and add support for bitcoin transactions
- Java Struts to support iOS/Android Mobile Apps for a Healthcare Insurance app
- Legacy Windows Apps to Azure
Particularly in the banking, finance and medical fields.
- Deploy an enterprise Cobol banking application using Kubernetes and add support for bitcoin transactions
- Java Struts to support iOS/Android Mobile Apps for a Healthcare Insurance app
- Legacy Windows Apps to Azure
Particularly in the banking, finance and medical fields.
The capitalist society in USA is ageist.
How do you do fellow kids?
Hard to get past the early 90's primary-colored banner ads clearly targeting Tucker Carlson fans from The Villages, rather than lifelong techie types approaching traditional retirement age but who still retain the bulk of their faculties
Surprising / not surprising how woke coastal hiring practice coincides with blatant age discrimination. It wasn't that long ago that being on the wrong side of 25 put everything on "hard mode". Now it's more like 35-45, if only because the powers-that-be got older.
https://www.mo4tech.com/the-father-of-java-cant-escape-age-d...
https://www.mo4tech.com/the-father-of-java-cant-escape-age-d...
Surprising / not surprising how woke coastal hiring practice coincides with blatant age discrimination.
"Woke" has nothing to do with it. That's a completely separate thing. Also, it doesn't exist. Black people don't use it anymore ("woke" came out of AAVE, before it became something for Tucker Carlson to trigger the right with) and most ardent leftists recognize that "woke capitalism" is strictly a performance.
Companies aren't going "woke" because they want to impose blue-state social justice on the population. They're doing this because (a) it's a way to make themselves look better in a country that is 2:1 against racism, sexism, transphobia, et al, without actually changing anything about how they operate, and (b) this "woke"/CRT bugbear is just another tool the very rich use to divide working people against each other.
Ageism is similar. Nothing makes capitalists happier than for us old working people and the young working people to hate each other. But we shouldn't. We're on the same team.
"Woke" has nothing to do with it. That's a completely separate thing. Also, it doesn't exist. Black people don't use it anymore ("woke" came out of AAVE, before it became something for Tucker Carlson to trigger the right with) and most ardent leftists recognize that "woke capitalism" is strictly a performance.
Companies aren't going "woke" because they want to impose blue-state social justice on the population. They're doing this because (a) it's a way to make themselves look better in a country that is 2:1 against racism, sexism, transphobia, et al, without actually changing anything about how they operate, and (b) this "woke"/CRT bugbear is just another tool the very rich use to divide working people against each other.
Ageism is similar. Nothing makes capitalists happier than for us old working people and the young working people to hate each other. But we shouldn't. We're on the same team.
Mental decline starts at 35. Biology isn't going by the laws of man.
A statistical fact is not a universal truth. Sometimes, the entire sample is far from the mean[0]. All I can add about the scene 10 years ago would be that if they were choosing candidates solely based on perfomance, the place wouldn't have looked like a low-budget remake of Logan's Run.
[0] https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
[0] https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
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This comes from a man who does not like exercise, and has a genetic tendency to severe obesity (if family is any indication).
Five days a week you will find me sprinting up hills around my neighborhood, using bands and weights for resistant training, and doing breathing exercises. I eat one or two meals a day.
I'm lean, toned, and walk with speed, energy and purpose.
I'm not exactly good looking, and I can occasionally be socially awkward - but I'm fit, respectful and wear tasteful attire.
Personally, I think this gives me a giant advantage in my age cohort where most men waddle around like they are 11 months pregnant and you can hear their breathing from 60 feet away. I hear a lot of guys in this category counting down the days till retirement.
I dislike exercise but have practiced fitness training for decades. The physical and mental benefits are well known. I think the impression it makes is off the charts when you present as an older man with discipline and intellect.
I have an aunt who is deeply concerned for my health because I'm too small in her opinion (food = love). Yet her son, my cousin (who she considers a strapping example of manhood), just went on SS disability after being a tow truck driver for decades. He just got too fat to do the job. Nobody would hire him - they just see a giant medical liability.
We have control over fitness regardless of looks, and it can make a difference.