Ask HN: Feeling burned out at an early stage in my career
75 comments
1. This is normal.
2. Take some time off.
3. Realize that your personal identity and value has nothing to do with your job. Outside of a small world of co-workers, no one in the world cares about your job or your promotion or if you delivered your project on time. You almost certainly think about your job performance 10x more than your bosses do. They are probably just shocked/glad you are still there giving them a good return on their investment into your wages. Your value as a human is not related to how fast you close tickets.
4. A company that grows a lot will change significantly. Big companies are fundamentally different beasts that require different skills for success than small companies. At a small company, you are praised for getting things done as fast as possible. At a big company, you are praised for your ability to herd cats to get small things done that other people need. If you don't enjoy the latter, find a different job at a smaller company (or start your own, or do something else entirely).
In other words:
Working for someone else's company is indeed a never-ending treadmill of tasks. Eventually you will get burnt out doing it, which is what this sounds like. So take a little time off and then make a change!
The difference is that you now have 3 years of solid experience at a fast-growing company. It will probably be much easier for you to get your next job based on that and you will probably make more money doing it.
2. Take some time off.
3. Realize that your personal identity and value has nothing to do with your job. Outside of a small world of co-workers, no one in the world cares about your job or your promotion or if you delivered your project on time. You almost certainly think about your job performance 10x more than your bosses do. They are probably just shocked/glad you are still there giving them a good return on their investment into your wages. Your value as a human is not related to how fast you close tickets.
4. A company that grows a lot will change significantly. Big companies are fundamentally different beasts that require different skills for success than small companies. At a small company, you are praised for getting things done as fast as possible. At a big company, you are praised for your ability to herd cats to get small things done that other people need. If you don't enjoy the latter, find a different job at a smaller company (or start your own, or do something else entirely).
In other words:
Working for someone else's company is indeed a never-ending treadmill of tasks. Eventually you will get burnt out doing it, which is what this sounds like. So take a little time off and then make a change!
The difference is that you now have 3 years of solid experience at a fast-growing company. It will probably be much easier for you to get your next job based on that and you will probably make more money doing it.
Great advice! I would also add it that don't make what you do for work your hobby. Some on here might disagree with me, but I've found programming in my free time just feels like I'm at work.
Explore new hobbies while you have down time. If engineering is your thing, give woodworking or machining a try. Maybe take up a sport or cycling, physical activity is great for your mental health. Just try being more outdoors
Explore new hobbies while you have down time. If engineering is your thing, give woodworking or machining a try. Maybe take up a sport or cycling, physical activity is great for your mental health. Just try being more outdoors
This has become tough for me recently. I’ve become more active recently and have picked up language learning and swimming related hobbies, but I’ve realized my day job doesn’t teach me anything new. Additionally, since I’m also early in my career, I realized I don’t have many personal side projects under my belt to build a “portfolio”. So now I’m in a debacle where I’m burnt out at work for a myriad of reasons (shoddy remote development environment being the main one), and I don’t want to code as a hobby anymore, but I feel that I must so that I can change jobs.
I've been a software developer for over 20 years and never showed a portfolio as part of a hiring process. Also, I take time out of my workday to learn stuff because my work doesn't teach me anything new either.
My employer theoretically codifies this by requesting that we spend X amount of our time on learning and development. Unfortunately, even when time is blocked out for that, most people seem to just work on their backlog.
Depending on your exact field and desires, but you may very well not need a portfolio. If you’re going for very design-heavy frontend job then maybe, but after I got some work experience nobody needed to see code I wrote in my spare time (which I have none of).
I wouldn’t let that stop you. Just start applying.
I wouldn’t let that stop you. Just start applying.
I prefer smaller companies. Almost all of the smaller companies I've worked for either grew, or grew and got acquired and become big companies. Big companies are full of bureaucratic nonsense and friction. I would start looking for another small company. Doing that tends to reinvigorate me.
Very normal and expected actually:
> I joined one year into the business and have been there for the last three years. I took on a lot of responsibility early on because I was excited and I learned a lot. I worked on tasks that had a direct impact on revenue.
This is usually paired with "I used to be integral to the company, now they've hired a lot more developers, PMs, and qa, I used to have a lot of impact, now I have none". Ie the early employee role is diminished as the start up grows.
This can be a good time to grow with the company by moving into a development adjacent role, like sales engineer, PM, management etc. Or take your experience and move on.
> I joined one year into the business and have been there for the last three years. I took on a lot of responsibility early on because I was excited and I learned a lot. I worked on tasks that had a direct impact on revenue.
This is usually paired with "I used to be integral to the company, now they've hired a lot more developers, PMs, and qa, I used to have a lot of impact, now I have none". Ie the early employee role is diminished as the start up grows.
This can be a good time to grow with the company by moving into a development adjacent role, like sales engineer, PM, management etc. Or take your experience and move on.
Not OP but in a very similar position.
How much time off do you think would be enough? Are we talking like a one/two week vacation or something more in the range of months (which ofc would imply leaving my job)?
Also does taking time off also include university or is it just the job that's going to be problematic?
How much time off do you think would be enough? Are we talking like a one/two week vacation or something more in the range of months (which ofc would imply leaving my job)?
Also does taking time off also include university or is it just the job that's going to be problematic?
I doubt a week or two is going to be enough. You don't necessarily have to leave your job though, given how difficult it is to hire people, it's likely an unpaid leave for a few months would be accepted.
note that this particular time is perhaps not the best to switch jobs. that doesn't mean not to look for jobs, but the writing's on the wall - hiring freezes, offer rescinds, even layoffs are in play.
> I am wrestling with this feeling of guilt that I can't get motivated like I used to. I've tried doing the things with tech I love -- like working on my website -- but lose energy quickly.
Your free time activities shouldn’t be similar to your work time activities. That’s a recipe for burnout. Get away from the computer! Go outside, go to the gym, go to a social event. If you sit in front of screens all day for work and then sit in front of screens all evening after work, you’re going to feel unmotivated and burned out. You must get out and do different things. More than you’re already doing.
Second: Learn to pace yourself. It’s not realistic to expect to be motivated by every task forever the same way you were at first when it was new and exciting. The tough truth is that you need to learn how to structure your days as work, which often means doing things that are uninteresting or not naturally motivating. You shouldn’t be doing these tasks for 12 hours per day and crushing the backlog at a rapid rate all the time, but you must learn how to sit down, work for 30-60 minutes on your top priority task, get up and take a 10-30 minute break, and then repeat.
Forget the guilt for not doing everything as fast as possible. Learn how to sit down and work for at least 4 hours per day whether the tasks are interesting or not, then learn how to turn it off and go do the (non-computer) things you like.
It’s not about the work or inherently motivating tasks. It’s about contributing, working with your team, and getting a reasonable amount of work done.
Your free time activities shouldn’t be similar to your work time activities. That’s a recipe for burnout. Get away from the computer! Go outside, go to the gym, go to a social event. If you sit in front of screens all day for work and then sit in front of screens all evening after work, you’re going to feel unmotivated and burned out. You must get out and do different things. More than you’re already doing.
Second: Learn to pace yourself. It’s not realistic to expect to be motivated by every task forever the same way you were at first when it was new and exciting. The tough truth is that you need to learn how to structure your days as work, which often means doing things that are uninteresting or not naturally motivating. You shouldn’t be doing these tasks for 12 hours per day and crushing the backlog at a rapid rate all the time, but you must learn how to sit down, work for 30-60 minutes on your top priority task, get up and take a 10-30 minute break, and then repeat.
Forget the guilt for not doing everything as fast as possible. Learn how to sit down and work for at least 4 hours per day whether the tasks are interesting or not, then learn how to turn it off and go do the (non-computer) things you like.
It’s not about the work or inherently motivating tasks. It’s about contributing, working with your team, and getting a reasonable amount of work done.
Tragically for those of us who got into this career because we loved coding on our own, this is absolutely true. You've got to have another hobby or downtime thing now to keep yourself sane and somewhat well-rounded. Some coding in free time is okay, even good, but there's got to be more than that. (I think the correct balance will vary per person, so find your own sweet spot.) I also recommend having something physical like gardening or a sport in your regular rotation.
Other have said it, but you should probably take some time off. And by that I mean, actually take time off without checking email or slack, or quickly helping put out a fire. I worked for a high growth start-up and I'd always end up checking in on something or answering some questions during my time off and it just negated any benefit from taking the time off.
Also, you mention not having motivation to work on personal tech projects, and I can relate to that. I don't have a good answer except that you don't have to do any of those projects now, and it's probably better for you to find a non-tech related hobby like cooking. You'll use a different part of your brain, while also creating something and solving the occasional problem.
Also, and I say this to most people who are struggling with work, but therapy is a great outlet to help you explore the pressures of work and strategies to deal with them. When I worked at a start-up, half the reason I was in therapy was to have a neutral outlet for venting my work frustrations that wasn't my significant other. It's not for everyone, but I highly recommend giving it a shot, especially if you have insurance since there's no real downsize except for the hour or so the session takes (especially now that a lot of therapists are doing virtual visits).
Also, you mention not having motivation to work on personal tech projects, and I can relate to that. I don't have a good answer except that you don't have to do any of those projects now, and it's probably better for you to find a non-tech related hobby like cooking. You'll use a different part of your brain, while also creating something and solving the occasional problem.
Also, and I say this to most people who are struggling with work, but therapy is a great outlet to help you explore the pressures of work and strategies to deal with them. When I worked at a start-up, half the reason I was in therapy was to have a neutral outlet for venting my work frustrations that wasn't my significant other. It's not for everyone, but I highly recommend giving it a shot, especially if you have insurance since there's no real downsize except for the hour or so the session takes (especially now that a lot of therapists are doing virtual visits).
1. Start with sleep. The glymphatic nervous system washes away the brain damage caused by daily stress. Not enough or low quality sleep and brain damage is accumulating. Go to bed and realize that time in bed doesn’t equal time asleep. Lower your thermostat to 62-64 degrees F. Kill all excess light. Leave your devices in another room.
2. Stress less. Recognize that professional athletes train for at most 3-4 hours a day. You are a professional athlete now where your brain is your most potent muscle. Find time and hobbies to enjoy life and hopefully away from screens.
3. Move more. Exercise not only keeps us strong, it helps us sleep better and stress less physiologically. Find activities you enjoy and better if away from screens.
4. Eat better. Start thinking of your brain as part of your body, fuel it with food, not processed garbage.
If after one month of #1-4 you still feel awful, start your job search. Even if you live to work, versus work to live, a job should help you grow professionally. Seek out mentors and work to change what you do, after you have a stable base of who you are.
2. Stress less. Recognize that professional athletes train for at most 3-4 hours a day. You are a professional athlete now where your brain is your most potent muscle. Find time and hobbies to enjoy life and hopefully away from screens.
3. Move more. Exercise not only keeps us strong, it helps us sleep better and stress less physiologically. Find activities you enjoy and better if away from screens.
4. Eat better. Start thinking of your brain as part of your body, fuel it with food, not processed garbage.
If after one month of #1-4 you still feel awful, start your job search. Even if you live to work, versus work to live, a job should help you grow professionally. Seek out mentors and work to change what you do, after you have a stable base of who you are.
"Recognize that professional athletes train for at most 3-4 hours a day."
What is your source for this?
E.g., here https://wildfriendsfoods.com/blogs/community/a-typical-train... the author trains 5-6 hours per day and that is intense training.
What is your source for this?
E.g., here https://wildfriendsfoods.com/blogs/community/a-typical-train... the author trains 5-6 hours per day and that is intense training.
Two basic questions:
1) Do you practice a sport regularly?
If you don't, that's almost certainly taking a huge toll on your mental health. Start practicing and check again in a month.
2) Are you sleeping properly?
You need from 7-9 hours of good sleep every night.
Turn off screens at 8 PM.
Go to bed early, you need to be asleep by 10 PM at most.
Avoid junk food, sugar, etc especially hours before going to bed.
1) Do you practice a sport regularly?
If you don't, that's almost certainly taking a huge toll on your mental health. Start practicing and check again in a month.
2) Are you sleeping properly?
You need from 7-9 hours of good sleep every night.
Turn off screens at 8 PM.
Go to bed early, you need to be asleep by 10 PM at most.
Avoid junk food, sugar, etc especially hours before going to bed.
I'm not sure that practicing a sport is really a requirement for mental health. Getting some exercise, sure, and having non-work-related interests, sure, but prescribing "go play some sports" is a silly thing to say.
> "go play some sports" is a silly thing to say
Wow, that comment summarizes a pernicious lack of value to sports in many places around the world today.
No, sports are deeply important.
It's not just about exercising your body. It's also about the game behind it, striving to overcome obstacles (external and internal), developing resilience and discipline.
And doing it with a connection between mind and body.
This will train your mind and wire your neurobiology to protect you from depression, lack of will or motivation, among other things.
Wow, that comment summarizes a pernicious lack of value to sports in many places around the world today.
No, sports are deeply important.
It's not just about exercising your body. It's also about the game behind it, striving to overcome obstacles (external and internal), developing resilience and discipline.
And doing it with a connection between mind and body.
This will train your mind and wire your neurobiology to protect you from depression, lack of will or motivation, among other things.
I can say exactly the same thing about learning a musical instrument. There's nothing magical about sports.
It's not magical, this has been found and is supported by scientific research.
WebMD has a brief intro to the subject, if you'd like to explore. [1]
> I can say exactly the same thing about learning a musical instrument
Well, one thing being good doesn't invalidate other, unrelated things also being good.
I enjoy music a lot and played the guitar in the past. My anecdotal experience is indeed positive.
Never researched the mental health benefits from playing an instrument, though. If you have any research to point out, I'd appreciate. If I had to bet, it won't be as significant as playing a sport involving physical activity.
[1] https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/benefits-of-sports-for-m...
WebMD has a brief intro to the subject, if you'd like to explore. [1]
> I can say exactly the same thing about learning a musical instrument
Well, one thing being good doesn't invalidate other, unrelated things also being good.
I enjoy music a lot and played the guitar in the past. My anecdotal experience is indeed positive.
Never researched the mental health benefits from playing an instrument, though. If you have any research to point out, I'd appreciate. If I had to bet, it won't be as significant as playing a sport involving physical activity.
[1] https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/benefits-of-sports-for-m...
Most of the benefits in your citation apply to general exercise as much as they do to sports. There may be some extra mental health benefit of team sports in particular but relative to simply being fit and having hobbies that involve other people, I don't think it's gargantuan. The most mentally healthy people I've known personally have been deeply invested in something outside of work; I've seen no association between apparent mental health and whether someone plays a sport (unless perhaps you define "sport" broadly to include running or biking noncompetitively).
> Never researched the mental health benefits from playing an instrument, though.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6368928/
> Never researched the mental health benefits from playing an instrument, though.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6368928/
This is a much more respectful disagreement than the first reply and I appreciate the effort to lead the conversation to a civil direction, thanks
In many cultures and languages the term sport/exercise are used interchangeably.
I use Sport as my meditation.
It's one of the ways I can disconnect for at least a little while.
It's one of the ways I can disconnect for at least a little while.
I also had similar feelings and experiences very early in my career.
Here are my thoughts
1) Burnout is not a workload problem, it is related to your subjective perception of the meaning behind that workload
2) Ultimately, the 'meaning' you attribute is related to your desired identity
3) The company where you work may change, but you may also change
4) You have to find and negotiate a role related to your long term desired core identity
Good luck!
Here are my thoughts
1) Burnout is not a workload problem, it is related to your subjective perception of the meaning behind that workload
2) Ultimately, the 'meaning' you attribute is related to your desired identity
3) The company where you work may change, but you may also change
4) You have to find and negotiate a role related to your long term desired core identity
Good luck!
>1) Burnout is not a workload problem, it is related to your subjective perception of the meaning behind that workload
When I first started in the 1990s, we didn't have scrum / sprints. We used to release quarterly (this was a software shop that sold to around 200 clients). After each quarterly release, we felt a massive sense of accomplishment, especially when hitting the deadline and our scope. We would all join up and have a party at someone's house to celebrate with a release party. We took a few days off after a release. I feel that scrum / sprint ticketing style of work really took that sense of accomplishment away, or significantly diminished it. I think this also leads to higher burnout. It feels like it's now just a ticket grind and not much of a sense of accomplishment as it was before.
When I first started in the 1990s, we didn't have scrum / sprints. We used to release quarterly (this was a software shop that sold to around 200 clients). After each quarterly release, we felt a massive sense of accomplishment, especially when hitting the deadline and our scope. We would all join up and have a party at someone's house to celebrate with a release party. We took a few days off after a release. I feel that scrum / sprint ticketing style of work really took that sense of accomplishment away, or significantly diminished it. I think this also leads to higher burnout. It feels like it's now just a ticket grind and not much of a sense of accomplishment as it was before.
Very interesting. I know my opinion on this topic is not normal, but I believe that some kind of 'party' which gives a sense of 'accomplishment' is a missing ritual for scrum-agile. We deeply need some kind of religious celebration to give meaning to our work! Few individual are going to be able to cope in a purely cyclical view of their work, where the pain and sacrifices start over and over again without a sense of accomplishment. Why are programmers expected to behave like Nietzsche's superman?
I feel completely the same. However I disagree with other ppl saying that 'your job doesn't define you'. You decide what defines you, not what they say. If your job really is your top priority, as it is for some people, and you are not satisfied, try indeed to either pick a new job or start your own company. But don't let others fool you just because you are driven and they are chill: there are passengers for every train: from express to commuter
true, but it's worth pointing out that it's possible to not be defined by your job. some people need to be reminded of that for their own good; i'd say most need to be told this at least once in their careers.
It sounds patronizing to me but I guess everyone projects themselves on others: maybe you find it as illuminating.
I’ve just seen it too many times. It is patronizing, but hopefully eye-opening, too. You can be good at your job and leave work at the office. Obvious… but not quite.
That's an awesome early start. You did not say if you have a degree yet. If you don't that can be a great way to step back from working and explore some new topics. Part of the benefit of the general electives at a university is that you have some chance to explore some subject areas in depth that you might not have otherwise had the chance to get interested in. For example I took an archeology class that covered the puzzle of Linear A and it sparked an interest in computational linguistics.
I think a lot of people go to college too early to really benefit from it and it is an awesome experience if you can approach it from more than just a credential gatekeeping you from your chosen career.
I think a lot of people go to college too early to really benefit from it and it is an awesome experience if you can approach it from more than just a credential gatekeeping you from your chosen career.
i was kinda in the same position. 2-3 years in. i couldnt concentrate one bit, i showed up to work every day and did almost nothing. It's kinda a long time ago and i dont really remember how that episode ended. I think i slowly got back into it.
But even now, 6 years later. I still have days/weeks where im not motivated at all. And i have had periods where i worked 18 hours a day with full joy. I cant really put my finger on it. I dont know what causes this. I havent really looked into it tbh. Even though i should, because when im lazy, i feel really bad about it.
I recently had this problem again, im looking into it now. Im experimenting with quitting caffeine. quitting endless internet content. Maybe exercise. I dont think its food related. Anyway, it's to soon for me to tell, i wish i had tried to fix this earlier, so i could give u an answer.
Thank you for making this post, curious what others will say.
But even now, 6 years later. I still have days/weeks where im not motivated at all. And i have had periods where i worked 18 hours a day with full joy. I cant really put my finger on it. I dont know what causes this. I havent really looked into it tbh. Even though i should, because when im lazy, i feel really bad about it.
I recently had this problem again, im looking into it now. Im experimenting with quitting caffeine. quitting endless internet content. Maybe exercise. I dont think its food related. Anyway, it's to soon for me to tell, i wish i had tried to fix this earlier, so i could give u an answer.
Thank you for making this post, curious what others will say.
Working 18 hours a day sounds massively productive but it is not sustainable. You are bound to hit a wall at some point, which sounds like your experience.
Take time off and learn to work at a more moderate pace with some breaks. Or keep doing the crazy productive days but take your time off more frequently, maybe even push for 4 day weeks.
Take time off and learn to work at a more moderate pace with some breaks. Or keep doing the crazy productive days but take your time off more frequently, maybe even push for 4 day weeks.
oh yes, i absolutely agree. That was just an extreme example of recent years. It almost never happens. but it does happen. that was my point. the fact that i sometimes WANT to work that much.
I can relate to this, have had similar periods as well. It always seems to get better just to get worse again.
Haven't figured out the cause either, maybe it's some mild burnout? Maybe it's depression? Maybe it's some kind of mild bipolar disorder with quick cycles? Maybe it's just who I am? Maybe it's something I do/don't do, something I eat? Maybe it's the company changing?
I don't know so many possible explanations I guess
Haven't figured out the cause either, maybe it's some mild burnout? Maybe it's depression? Maybe it's some kind of mild bipolar disorder with quick cycles? Maybe it's just who I am? Maybe it's something I do/don't do, something I eat? Maybe it's the company changing?
I don't know so many possible explanations I guess
It's the workload and lack of control, recognition or fairness that's causing your burnout.
You have to start making waves and get the job you want, the life you want. I'm not saying that you will get it, I'm saying that the journey itself, the discoveries you make will worth it.
You have to start making waves and get the job you want, the life you want. I'm not saying that you will get it, I'm saying that the journey itself, the discoveries you make will worth it.
Remember that career is a marathon and not a sprint. You can sprint in the beginning but you won't be able to finish the marathon at the same pace.
Start taking it easy at workplace, if possible. Think about doing the right thing, learning and doing quality work instead of doing more. Consider changing job and go to a place where work life balance is given a priority and where you could do work that you like.
Start some physical nature based activity like hiking where you could stay away from devices. Being a tech worker we unknowingly end up spending most of our day in front of devices (phone, computer, TV) which tires our mind. Being away from devices and being in nature is a great therapy.
There are people who only work at 2-10 person companies, and thrive there. They have a diverse skillset. They can work quickly and produce lean, malleable software. They wear a lot of hats. They take a lot of equity compensation (sometimes wisely, sometimes not).
I am one of those people. I always struggled at 100 person, 200 person companies. Fights with C-levels, struggles with HR, breaking through silos to make things happen.
You can't make things happen at a 200 person company like you can at a 5 person company. You can't have the conversations. You can't pivot on a dime.
I've embraced who I am and what I'm good at, and it's increased my happiness to a huge degree.
I am one of those people. I always struggled at 100 person, 200 person companies. Fights with C-levels, struggles with HR, breaking through silos to make things happen.
You can't make things happen at a 200 person company like you can at a 5 person company. You can't have the conversations. You can't pivot on a dime.
I've embraced who I am and what I'm good at, and it's increased my happiness to a huge degree.
> One thing that's worth noting is my job has changed in this time to something that doesn't interest me as much.
Two things to do, not necessarily in that order: 1. Take a break from work and hobby software projects. Distance yourself a bit from all of it - tech world is not going anywhere. 2. Find another project/company that does what interests you. It will do wonders for your motivation.
I went through it - got stuck in some shitty company on a legacy project, just because of the money. I died inside slowly every day. Took two months off and went on, now I am working with new tech and love it again.
Two things to do, not necessarily in that order: 1. Take a break from work and hobby software projects. Distance yourself a bit from all of it - tech world is not going anywhere. 2. Find another project/company that does what interests you. It will do wonders for your motivation.
I went through it - got stuck in some shitty company on a legacy project, just because of the money. I died inside slowly every day. Took two months off and went on, now I am working with new tech and love it again.
It's often the work you're currently doing that colors everything else in your life, from personal experience. I don't think it's fair to suggest, but I would quit and take a break then get started on something new.
My problem with outright suggesting that for you is that it sounds like this company has been treating you well. It's just the nature of startups to become what feels like busy work after launch (or even before).
That said, I've never experienced management shifting gears just to satisfy engineers. I think in some circumstances it might make sense to, for example, promote the main engineers and hire contractors to do the busy work. But it's just not realistic. Business processes need to evolve and roadmaps need to be maintained, especially if there's a board of investors involved.
I wish we could do projects where we build the product, launch it, then just sit back and make money. It'd be heaven to my ears. Unfortunately, we instead decide to tweak things endlessly and add features which often don't need to be there. But often they simply do need to be there if the business wants to scale.
In any case, I wouldn't worry about it: your lack of motivation is most likely temporally locked and heavily dependent on your current work.
My problem with outright suggesting that for you is that it sounds like this company has been treating you well. It's just the nature of startups to become what feels like busy work after launch (or even before).
That said, I've never experienced management shifting gears just to satisfy engineers. I think in some circumstances it might make sense to, for example, promote the main engineers and hire contractors to do the busy work. But it's just not realistic. Business processes need to evolve and roadmaps need to be maintained, especially if there's a board of investors involved.
I wish we could do projects where we build the product, launch it, then just sit back and make money. It'd be heaven to my ears. Unfortunately, we instead decide to tweak things endlessly and add features which often don't need to be there. But often they simply do need to be there if the business wants to scale.
In any case, I wouldn't worry about it: your lack of motivation is most likely temporally locked and heavily dependent on your current work.
> I started working for a tech company immediately out of high school.
> What should I do?
Go to college, full-time, while you are still young. As you get older, it will be increasingly difficult to have a tech career without a degree.
You are in a place in your life where you're still on the same wavelength as the typical college student. Also, now that you have career experience, college will be significantly easier than someone who went because it's "what you do after high school." If you go back to college when you're in your late 20s, or older, you may find that spending your days with people a decade younger is frustrating.
Hopefully you don't have a large car payment or mortgage, so it's easy to enter college without strings. Thankfully, you can probably sell anything you bought on credit for more than you owe.
Edit: One thing to add. There is clearly an education bubble and many people young people are spending far too much money on an education that will never pay for itself. You are not one of those people; you've clearly proven that you will benefit immensely from a degree; and that you will have no problem paying back any loans you take out. If you want to keep your costs reasonable, favor looking at good public schools, like UMass Amherst.
> What should I do?
Go to college, full-time, while you are still young. As you get older, it will be increasingly difficult to have a tech career without a degree.
You are in a place in your life where you're still on the same wavelength as the typical college student. Also, now that you have career experience, college will be significantly easier than someone who went because it's "what you do after high school." If you go back to college when you're in your late 20s, or older, you may find that spending your days with people a decade younger is frustrating.
Hopefully you don't have a large car payment or mortgage, so it's easy to enter college without strings. Thankfully, you can probably sell anything you bought on credit for more than you owe.
Edit: One thing to add. There is clearly an education bubble and many people young people are spending far too much money on an education that will never pay for itself. You are not one of those people; you've clearly proven that you will benefit immensely from a degree; and that you will have no problem paying back any loans you take out. If you want to keep your costs reasonable, favor looking at good public schools, like UMass Amherst.
As someone who finished their bachelors in their 30's, I think you're completely right about this. Every day you put off college/grad school makes it a bit harder to get back into it.
In grad school now I feel like I'm playing a perpetual game of catchup; I have a mortgage and whatnot to pay, so I have to work full time, meaning I have to spend hours every night studying. If I had done school before I was too entrenched in anything, it would have been much easier. On the plus side, at least I don't have to worry about student loans, since I go to a public university and have a decent salary.
In grad school now I feel like I'm playing a perpetual game of catchup; I have a mortgage and whatnot to pay, so I have to work full time, meaning I have to spend hours every night studying. If I had done school before I was too entrenched in anything, it would have been much easier. On the plus side, at least I don't have to worry about student loans, since I go to a public university and have a decent salary.
There are a lot of helpful tips in this thread and similar ones. Maybe I can add a bit about my own situation for perspective.
1. Become really good at your job. Be able to finish a task in less time than what is expected. Take the remaining time to relax and reduce stress. Don't engage in "bull**" tasks that are meant to make people seem productive. If you reliably deliver value in the important tasks nobody will mind. Find a niche in your team or company that makes you in particular valuable. For me that's writing code in a niche language where few people have experience and being able to teach others, ie. train colleagues in programming. Reduce your working hours if possible (4 days max of 9-5 per week).
2. Do some work on your mental attitude. Feeling guilty is a self-destructive path. Read [1]. If you're struggling with anxiety, I recommend meditation and breathing exercises (eg. [2], watch the video on safety before trying it). Get at LEAST some physical exercise (even just walking outside). Spend more time in the sun whenever possible.
3. Do stuff that makes you feel like a winner. Beat a difficult video game, set yourself a goal to lift x KG in an exercise of your choice or challenge yourself to do something you know you should be doing but makes you nervous. Find motivation outside of work. For me that's working on game development projects. Try to be persistent and get some work done before the workday starts.
[1] https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-facing-...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
1. Become really good at your job. Be able to finish a task in less time than what is expected. Take the remaining time to relax and reduce stress. Don't engage in "bull**" tasks that are meant to make people seem productive. If you reliably deliver value in the important tasks nobody will mind. Find a niche in your team or company that makes you in particular valuable. For me that's writing code in a niche language where few people have experience and being able to teach others, ie. train colleagues in programming. Reduce your working hours if possible (4 days max of 9-5 per week).
2. Do some work on your mental attitude. Feeling guilty is a self-destructive path. Read [1]. If you're struggling with anxiety, I recommend meditation and breathing exercises (eg. [2], watch the video on safety before trying it). Get at LEAST some physical exercise (even just walking outside). Spend more time in the sun whenever possible.
3. Do stuff that makes you feel like a winner. Beat a difficult video game, set yourself a goal to lift x KG in an exercise of your choice or challenge yourself to do something you know you should be doing but makes you nervous. Find motivation outside of work. For me that's working on game development projects. Try to be persistent and get some work done before the workday starts.
[1] https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-facing-...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
> The company has grown to 200+ people and I'm struggling to see how my skills apply to my role since my first role is now no longer relevant to our core business.
This is the type of situation that fosters burnout. The conditions were already there ("work is a never-ending treadmill of tasks which don't interest me") and you don't see how the things that intrinsically interest you align with the business anymore, so your brain says, "I just can't."
In your shoes, I would:
* ask around about lateral moves to something more interesting within the same company, or even a downward move. If they balk that your pay needs to decrease, then you can either accept it, or negotiate a shorter workweek.
* simultaneously: start a low-key job hunt to avoid the feeling of being stuck calcifying further.
If things are really bad, consider cutting your hours, doing less within your hours (and using the extra time to take care of yourself), or taking a sabbatical if you have the means.
This is the type of situation that fosters burnout. The conditions were already there ("work is a never-ending treadmill of tasks which don't interest me") and you don't see how the things that intrinsically interest you align with the business anymore, so your brain says, "I just can't."
In your shoes, I would:
* ask around about lateral moves to something more interesting within the same company, or even a downward move. If they balk that your pay needs to decrease, then you can either accept it, or negotiate a shorter workweek.
* simultaneously: start a low-key job hunt to avoid the feeling of being stuck calcifying further.
If things are really bad, consider cutting your hours, doing less within your hours (and using the extra time to take care of yourself), or taking a sabbatical if you have the means.
Work IS a never-ending treadmill of tasks when you're maintaining a company. It's why some people prefer working on startups, because they get to build features and products instead of working on bugs and minor client-driven tweaks all day long. Also gonna let you in on a secret: there are millions of people in tech who don't spend every waking spare moment glued to a screen in order to do more tech things. It's okay to have other hobbies.
There are plenty on tech forums who will use their undying devotion to creating new websites and programs to be some sort of weird cultish flex, but the vast majority who are just going through their lives are stepping away from the keyboard when the work day is over.
And all you have to do, if you want to do other things, is to pay no attention to that cult. If they require access to your github as part of a job interview, then just don't take that job.
There are plenty on tech forums who will use their undying devotion to creating new websites and programs to be some sort of weird cultish flex, but the vast majority who are just going through their lives are stepping away from the keyboard when the work day is over.
And all you have to do, if you want to do other things, is to pay no attention to that cult. If they require access to your github as part of a job interview, then just don't take that job.
>... I know I'm early in my career but I feel tired and unmotivated at work. Work seems like a never-ending treadmill of tasks, many of which are more bureaucratic now and don't interest me. What should I do?
Indeed, time off or time out is a reasonable way to try restore your energy levels and shift your attention. I hope your boss is observant and rational to offer this to you.
Meanwhile, I'd try to review some of your past successful accomplishments, those that consumed your sweat and efforts. Often we underestimate our successes. It maybe a morale booster for you too.
Also, helping others may be another way to reset your perceptions. Given your experience, you may try to ask if you could mentor someone or onboarding. In a way, it's a step in the leadership direction.
Indeed, time off or time out is a reasonable way to try restore your energy levels and shift your attention. I hope your boss is observant and rational to offer this to you.
Meanwhile, I'd try to review some of your past successful accomplishments, those that consumed your sweat and efforts. Often we underestimate our successes. It maybe a morale booster for you too.
Also, helping others may be another way to reset your perceptions. Given your experience, you may try to ask if you could mentor someone or onboarding. In a way, it's a step in the leadership direction.
since it seems like you’ve done some soul searching and determined that the job isn’t longer one you enjoy (because the job has changed) or even worse is burning you out, I’d say look for something else and leave before you become too jaded or affected (and a deep burnout can take a very long time to recover from so try not to ever let it get to that). It’s ok to decide you don’t like a job even if your “logical brain” tells you you should be happy, you’re privileged, you have a “bigger” job and you make more money etc. It can be fooling, and happiness and satisfaction looks different to different people (heck it may even change a bit for you over the years). Good luck!
1. Take a vacation where you get away from everything you know for a few weeks.
2. Start planning your career. A job is a stepping stone, know where it is taking you and where you want it to take you.
3. Get a mentor and get on a path that takes you where you want to go. Have a plan and review it and yourself at least yearly like you are your own supervisor and career coach giving yourself a review and planning goals for the next year that take you where you need to be.
Rinse and repeat until you die.
This is totally normal. There are 2 things that can happen from here in my experience.
Either…
1) You’re going to be rewarded with higher compensation and because of it you determine to stick with the company long term, build up a very stable savings/investment and focus a lot more on your life outside of work for your personal fulfillment. As a side effect, you may find ways to get interested in new challenges at the current job (like organization efficiency).
2) You change jobs for higher pay and focus on a new problem that gets your interest.
Either…
1) You’re going to be rewarded with higher compensation and because of it you determine to stick with the company long term, build up a very stable savings/investment and focus a lot more on your life outside of work for your personal fulfillment. As a side effect, you may find ways to get interested in new challenges at the current job (like organization efficiency).
2) You change jobs for higher pay and focus on a new problem that gets your interest.
Head off to FAANG land and vest in peace for a few years. You've earned it. The startup life is completely unsustainable long term, and you're entirely right to feel this way.
[deleted]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15505304
I also went into tech out of high school and burned out after a few years. I wrote a post about it on here and got some really good feedback. There may be some tidbits in there that also apply to you.
Ultimately taking a few months off and traveling/hanging out with family worked wonders. Happy to talk more about it with you. samheutmaker at gmail
I also went into tech out of high school and burned out after a few years. I wrote a post about it on here and got some really good feedback. There may be some tidbits in there that also apply to you.
Ultimately taking a few months off and traveling/hanging out with family worked wonders. Happy to talk more about it with you. samheutmaker at gmail
It's normal, it's the grind. You can leave to see another business and start back from the bottom, learn new tricks etc. After a few more years join a mega corp and it'll be a breeze.
One thing to note maybe: you will not change the world from your country in a software job, you will not replace experience with self awareness and you will not act upon others unless you have the ability to act for them.
Leave, evolve, stay humble.
One thing to note maybe: you will not change the world from your country in a software job, you will not replace experience with self awareness and you will not act upon others unless you have the ability to act for them.
Leave, evolve, stay humble.
Hang in there, man. I can totally relate. I too find myself getting tired out at the three year mark at companies, and switching things up has always helped. Although it's easier to not burn the bridge when you switch positions internally rather than start a completely different company (since often that other company can be the main competitor to the one you are leaving).
Congrats on getting started in a white collar career path right after high school, it was a great career choice.
How many hours per week do you work? If more than 40 then that is one part of your problem. When did you last take a vacation from work? A vacation is when you don't login to work at all. If not within the last three months then that is another part of the problem.
Take a month off.
Take a month off.
Were there other options besides starting work right at of high school? I imagine being consumed by a job when your HS buddies are excited about graduation puts things in perspective. Is anything holding you to a job? Nothing creates excitement like a bold move.
At the time, I was very much immersed in the tech community and being able to build and create interesting, meaningful technologies appealed to me. Hence, I felt comfortable making the move. But, most of my friends went away to college while I remained working from home. I have started travelling recently and have met some amazing people but I still feel somewhat disconnected.
Take it from a complete stranger, COVID did change the, "should I go to schools or start working" calculus. Things have changed since you made your decision, so it might be time to reevaluate.
If I could assign you a task, it would be to seek, find, and interact with a group(s) of people you admire and respect. Being a little older and wiser now, you would absolutely crush it if you decided to go back to school.
If I could assign you a task, it would be to seek, find, and interact with a group(s) of people you admire and respect. Being a little older and wiser now, you would absolutely crush it if you decided to go back to school.
Take time off. As much as you can. Better yet, if you aren't excited about this job anyway just tell them you are taking a month or 6 weeks or more off. When you come back you can better decide what to do (leave, stay, change path etc).
This sounds flippant, but, try shingling roofs for a summer. Or get a landscaping job. I entered the IT world somewhat later in my life and working in an office is a fucking gravy train. You just need something else to compare it to.
Other good answers that I won't repeat.
Speak to your manager about your career growth and what you want to do.
If you're feeling less useful, consider going back to school. Either part-time, or full-time if you can swing the finances.
Speak to your manager about your career growth and what you want to do.
If you're feeling less useful, consider going back to school. Either part-time, or full-time if you can swing the finances.
You've stayed several years at your first tech job, which is longer than most folks last. This is good. It's time to move on.
Meditate 10 minutes and run 1 mile daily.
Simple and effective.
Mine is Cycling, but there is a lot to this, especially for your mental state. Rest and activity boost growth hormones and help your brain to sort things out. Burnout can feel like depression. For me, that's when I know I need to be giving myself more time between things. Work hard and rest hard. Work your body like you do your mind.
So find an activity that you like or want to try and get sweaty - get body-tired to match your mental-tired-ness.
And share your efforts with your manager. This is actually part of leveling up. Knowing what you need to do for -you- that will help you do better, more motivated work with a fresh perspective is a value-adding process as much as going to a conference is.
Mine is Cycling, but there is a lot to this, especially for your mental state. Rest and activity boost growth hormones and help your brain to sort things out. Burnout can feel like depression. For me, that's when I know I need to be giving myself more time between things. Work hard and rest hard. Work your body like you do your mind.
So find an activity that you like or want to try and get sweaty - get body-tired to match your mental-tired-ness.
And share your efforts with your manager. This is actually part of leveling up. Knowing what you need to do for -you- that will help you do better, more motivated work with a fresh perspective is a value-adding process as much as going to a conference is.
I felt burned out too after 3 years in my previous job and looked for another one and I am happier now
Your job is not to be Elon Musk and change the world. You work because you are feeding your self, putting salt on the table and keeping the electricity bills paid. So it is important to realize this, and not set expectations to oneself way to high. Just deliver and go home.
Me too. I don't want to work for others anymore.
I read a book that was pretty good on this topic.
It said that you can see burnout as a long-term fail in the strain--rest equation, much like obesity is a fail in calories in--out.
Sometimes, it's hard to change the strain part, since strain may be something that cannot be changed by you (eg worry about family or society), or it is a sum of infinite tiny things that are individually insignificant even if you got rid of a couple. In that case you need to change the rest part.
Rest, as expressed in that book, is not necessarily being passive, ie lying on the sofa watching TV. It can be, but often, it's rather the opposite - it's stopping you from _real_ rest.
Rest can be seen as a change in what you do, on a mini-scale. Ie, it's not "change job and move to another country", but it can be to not do the same thing for too long.
Example: you work on the phone, talking with people as support or whatever. Rest in that case is not to put down the phone and chat with friends. Rest would be to change the mental occupation, eg meditating, sorting papers, doing something admin-y. For some, offloading to friends after a days work is a rest, for others, that's a strain. You need to introspect here.
A couple of things anyone can do that will help a great deal:
Note that excessive procrastination or compulsive timespending on eg youtube or facebook etc, can be a sign of mental exhaustion and you try to stimulate yourself to be more awake, like a dead tired child that is just all over the place. You need to make such things harder to do (remove apps etc) and good things easier to do (eg breaks).
Related: if someone knows of something like Leechblock but for Android and apps, that would be awesome. The Google "Digital wellbeing" is just bad. Leechblock makes it easy to block and hard to unblock, DW does the opposite.
edit: went to https://www.android.com/digital-wellbeing/ and omg, it's designed like by a tired child on speed. Large letters flying in from all over the place, really horrible.
It said that you can see burnout as a long-term fail in the strain--rest equation, much like obesity is a fail in calories in--out.
Sometimes, it's hard to change the strain part, since strain may be something that cannot be changed by you (eg worry about family or society), or it is a sum of infinite tiny things that are individually insignificant even if you got rid of a couple. In that case you need to change the rest part.
Rest, as expressed in that book, is not necessarily being passive, ie lying on the sofa watching TV. It can be, but often, it's rather the opposite - it's stopping you from _real_ rest.
Rest can be seen as a change in what you do, on a mini-scale. Ie, it's not "change job and move to another country", but it can be to not do the same thing for too long.
Example: you work on the phone, talking with people as support or whatever. Rest in that case is not to put down the phone and chat with friends. Rest would be to change the mental occupation, eg meditating, sorting papers, doing something admin-y. For some, offloading to friends after a days work is a rest, for others, that's a strain. You need to introspect here.
A couple of things anyone can do that will help a great deal:
* Go to sleep in time to get a full nights sleep, for most ca 8h
* no drugs or alcohol, since that'll impair high quality sleep
* use a pomodoro clock or kitchen timer to remind you to take breaks every 30 minutes or so of work
* remove all time-sucking apps from your phone, eg facebook, youtube. No excuses, you don't need them. For eg browser on phone, use eg "Digital wellbeing" (android) to limit yourself.
* install Leechblock on your browsers, which, again, blocks timesuckers
* exercise! Getting your pulse up often is more important than that weekly 2h weightlifting thing. Ie, do burpies a few times a day. Use the stairs. Take walks.
* periodically (eg every 15-30 minutes) close your eyes and breathe deep and relax. A fitbit can help with this reminder.
Note that excessive procrastination or compulsive timespending on eg youtube or facebook etc, can be a sign of mental exhaustion and you try to stimulate yourself to be more awake, like a dead tired child that is just all over the place. You need to make such things harder to do (remove apps etc) and good things easier to do (eg breaks).
Related: if someone knows of something like Leechblock but for Android and apps, that would be awesome. The Google "Digital wellbeing" is just bad. Leechblock makes it easy to block and hard to unblock, DW does the opposite.
edit: went to https://www.android.com/digital-wellbeing/ and omg, it's designed like by a tired child on speed. Large letters flying in from all over the place, really horrible.
I joined one year into the business and have been there for the last three years. I took on a lot of responsibility early on because I was excited and I learned a lot. I worked on tasks that had a direct impact on revenue.
Now I'm feeling burnt out and question whether I started on this path too early. I had really high expectations of myself and now I am wrestling with this feeling of guilt that I can't get motivated like I used to. I've tried doing the things with tech I love -- like working on my website -- but lose energy quickly.
I know I'm early in my career but I feel tired and unmotivated at work. Work seems like a never-ending treadmill of tasks, many of which are more bureaucratic now and don't interest me. What should I do?
Update: One thing that's worth noting is my job has changed in this time to something that doesn't interest me as much. The company has grown to 200+ people and I'm struggling to see how my skills apply to my role since my first role is now no longer relevant to our core business.