Help me identify possible tracking device found in my car(gist.github.com)
gist.github.com
Help me identify possible tracking device found in my car
https://gist.github.com/jwbee/90e32362fd24b1a233b882ffa7950616
267 comments
How is it allowed for a dealer to cut wires and install a non OEM-approved electronic device onto the CAN bus? This seems like it would void all the manufacturer warranties and potentially create liability for the manufacturer if it malfunctions.
This seems like it would void all the manufacturer warranties
That's what the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty... is for.
That's what the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty... is for.
Not really...
This is a complete hack job and I doubt there is a single component related to the electrical system that wouldn't be an easy denial from Honda unless the dealer played along... and in a modern car so much is tied to the electrical system that, while technically they didn't just void their entire warranty, they did just gut it to the point of being nearly useless.
This is a complete hack job and I doubt there is a single component related to the electrical system that wouldn't be an easy denial from Honda unless the dealer played along... and in a modern car so much is tied to the electrical system that, while technically they didn't just void their entire warranty, they did just gut it to the point of being nearly useless.
When we bought a brand new GMC, Dealer A installed a counterfeit backup camera.
Half a tank of gas later, Dealer B claimed the warranty was void because of the camera. We brought it in because the radio kept freaking out and it would drain the battery if left off over night.
There was an active recall for both those issues. Dealer C fixed them by installing a firmware update.
Half a tank of gas later, Dealer B claimed the warranty was void because of the camera. We brought it in because the radio kept freaking out and it would drain the battery if left off over night.
There was an active recall for both those issues. Dealer C fixed them by installing a firmware update.
Has anyone ever had an actual good experience with an auto dealer?
Our certified pre-owned GMC Acadia spent two months in the dealership. They needed a special tool to fix an emissions issue. GM said it would take 6 months to get the tool, so the dealership ordered one on eBay. They gave us a rental car the whole time, and even swapped it out for a premium trimmed GMC Terrain when we went on a family road trip.
The dealership had previously repaired the moon roof, and inadvertently damaged the headliner. So, while working on the emissions issue they replaced the whole headliner. The replacement is a little cheesier than from the factory, but good enough.
There's still an exterior rattle that they claimed they fixed 3 times now. At least they're trying. Last time I took it in, they removed several trim pieces and drove it around. I'm just going to have to track it down myself I guess.
I bought a new Mustang in 2010, and paid for the 5 year extended service plan. The hood paint corroded and the dealership repainted it, and gave me a rental car for the week. The hood has since corroded again and it's out of warranty now. I am mulling over splurging on a new paint job, with a classic Mustang racing stripe.
Buying the Mustang, I went to three dealerships. The first one, I got a test drive, and then the salesmen just walked away. I think he assumed I wasn't serious when I said I was buying a car that day. The second dealership, the salesman was super sleazy and pushy, and so I walked away. The third dealership, the salesman was really relaxed and professional. He asked if I was financing, and when I said no, he said he didn't like to waste time haggling and was happy just to move inventory. He offered me a price just $200 above the friends-and-family x-code price.
The dealership had previously repaired the moon roof, and inadvertently damaged the headliner. So, while working on the emissions issue they replaced the whole headliner. The replacement is a little cheesier than from the factory, but good enough.
There's still an exterior rattle that they claimed they fixed 3 times now. At least they're trying. Last time I took it in, they removed several trim pieces and drove it around. I'm just going to have to track it down myself I guess.
I bought a new Mustang in 2010, and paid for the 5 year extended service plan. The hood paint corroded and the dealership repainted it, and gave me a rental car for the week. The hood has since corroded again and it's out of warranty now. I am mulling over splurging on a new paint job, with a classic Mustang racing stripe.
Buying the Mustang, I went to three dealerships. The first one, I got a test drive, and then the salesmen just walked away. I think he assumed I wasn't serious when I said I was buying a car that day. The second dealership, the salesman was super sleazy and pushy, and so I walked away. The third dealership, the salesman was really relaxed and professional. He asked if I was financing, and when I said no, he said he didn't like to waste time haggling and was happy just to move inventory. He offered me a price just $200 above the friends-and-family x-code price.
We got a car two weeks ago, the experience at the Acura dealership was pretty good (of course, we got presented the bullshit warranty stuff in the finance manager's room, but we were able to turn everything down for a couple of minutes and things were ok).
We also had a good time at a Toyota dealership, but any car buying with them had a $6290 markup....
We also had a good time at a Toyota dealership, but any car buying with them had a $6290 markup....
Next time try generating the sales documentation using markdown.
Re. markdown, why should I? Also, what's sales documentation, is that something I should have received?
Given the state of the market, choosing between many cars wasn't an option, but outside of that, I care that the process is fast, there aren't sneaky charges, and the interaction is respectful. I prefer all my paperwork printed out, and that's what they did by default.
Given the state of the market, choosing between many cars wasn't an option, but outside of that, I care that the process is fast, there aren't sneaky charges, and the interaction is respectful. I prefer all my paperwork printed out, and that's what they did by default.
Whhooossh moment. You said there was a $6K /markup/, parent was making a joke about /markdown/.
Manufacturers must prove a modification to a car caused the fault in a product to deny an otherwise-covered warranty issue, regardless of who installed it. As for if this device kills the battery or what-have-you, i'm not sure what sort of liability the dealership is taking.
Does this apply even if the manufacturer adds a clause like "any modification not authorized by [manufacturer] or performed by a [manufacturer]-approved repair shop voids the warranty"?
It doesn’t matter what the manufacturer says, they cant void the entire car’s warranty due to a modification. If a 3p repair shop performs eg. a brake pad replacement and then your brakes fail, then that repair shop is liable and not the manufacturer.
The law isn't limited to cars.
It is in practice. Rooting a smartphone? Overclocking your CPU? Replacing parts in a laptop?
Replacing parts in a laptop absolutely does not void your warranty no matter what the manufacturer says.
What do you mean "no matter what the manufacturer says"? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is. If they broke a law in doing so is a separate issue that you would have to battle out in court.
When your 800$ laptop's speakers start buzzing and the service center says you need to pay 80$ for the repair because the tamper seal on the RAM was broken, are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time to sue them over it?
When your 800$ laptop's speakers start buzzing and the service center says you need to pay 80$ for the repair because the tamper seal on the RAM was broken, are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time to sue them over it?
If you can get the big company to say they're denying the warranty for that reason in writing, you could probably find a no-win, no-pay lawyer to file an eight digit class action lawsuit.
They know that as well as you do. I've found they usually do more passive aggressive / ambiguous stuff than overtly break the law.
Once we had a Toshiba laptop with a bad motherboard. They replaced it with some other board that didn't have drivers for Linux, or even for Windows.
Lenovo took over thirty days to repair my IBM thinkpad (broken screen connector), and when it came back, the high voltage screen transformer was shorted to the case, so it shocked the heck out of me when I turned it on.
On top of that, they didn't replace the broken screen connector, and claimed it was "no fault". This was after the local lenovo repair people found the fault, and lenovo said they couldn't ship the required part.
They know that as well as you do. I've found they usually do more passive aggressive / ambiguous stuff than overtly break the law.
Once we had a Toshiba laptop with a bad motherboard. They replaced it with some other board that didn't have drivers for Linux, or even for Windows.
Lenovo took over thirty days to repair my IBM thinkpad (broken screen connector), and when it came back, the high voltage screen transformer was shorted to the case, so it shocked the heck out of me when I turned it on.
On top of that, they didn't replace the broken screen connector, and claimed it was "no fault". This was after the local lenovo repair people found the fault, and lenovo said they couldn't ship the required part.
>>are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time
Are there no small claims courts where you live? Ombudmans? It really isn't a huge deal, nor is it very expensive. It's not 30k - more like $50. And not a year, usually few weeks at most.
>>? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is.
No, it isn't, that's the whole point.
Are there no small claims courts where you live? Ombudmans? It really isn't a huge deal, nor is it very expensive. It's not 30k - more like $50. And not a year, usually few weeks at most.
>>? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is.
No, it isn't, that's the whole point.
All of those things are protected. If the firmware melts the board, the CPU overheats, or the replacement part shorts something out then the warranty is void. However, if the failures are unrelated, then it's fine.
I once caught a motherboard on fire, then found some unrelated mechanical issues with it. (It still worked, except for the bad connector.)
The burn marks were cosmetic, and the shop sent me a DOA replacement. (That's more a story about the shop being awesome, but they were technically legally obligated to honor the warranty.)
I once caught a motherboard on fire, then found some unrelated mechanical issues with it. (It still worked, except for the bad connector.)
The burn marks were cosmetic, and the shop sent me a DOA replacement. (That's more a story about the shop being awesome, but they were technically legally obligated to honor the warranty.)
The relevant context is, though.
Because they didn’t think they would get caught
It's amusing to me that someone would go through the effort of deconstructing it, writing a gist, and posting it on HN before literally just googling "device under steering wheel" and seeing other people posting about the _exact_ same device.
People tend to imagine their lives are more interesting and worthy of surveillance than they really are :)
People tend to imagine their lives are more interesting and worthy of surveillance than they really are :)
He googled the device name, which I would also expect to show up in posts by others.
Yeah, people are just imagining the NSA led global surveillance apparatus.
Nah, the NSA doesn't need to bug your car. All cars after 2016 or so come pre bugged with an OnStar/StarLink/BMW Assist Remote/etc Telemetry System continuously sending data over 3G or LTE. Conveniently, the manufacturers already sell this data in an "anonymised" form. (cough Otonomo cough Wejo).
Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
> "Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA"
We are in the long swing where people think only state tyrany matters. They forgot how bad private tyrany can get, of robber barons were.
We are in the long swing where people think only state tyrany matters. They forgot how bad private tyrany can get, of robber barons were.
or state-enabled abortion vigilantes.
Welp, my car is now effectively bug free. It shipped with 2G, got a free upgrade to 3G, because 2G was being shut down. It has an optional upgrade to LTE but the features don't justify the cost and the mounting is derpy (new modem is a different shape, so it's velcro + double sided tape)
> Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.
Intel agencies privatize their spying to get around warrants. Private companies spying on you are not a far step from the NSA spying on you directly.
> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Hah. If you have any political aspiration at all, you are a potential target. FBI lied to attain FISA warrants, and the lawyer responsible got a slap on the wrist. DC juries will never convict one of their own, there is zero accountability at this point.
Intel agencies privatize their spying to get around warrants. Private companies spying on you are not a far step from the NSA spying on you directly.
> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Hah. If you have any political aspiration at all, you are a potential target. FBI lied to attain FISA warrants, and the lawyer responsible got a slap on the wrist. DC juries will never convict one of their own, there is zero accountability at this point.
> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.
Why are you so confident about who the NSA cares about?
COINTELPRO anyone?
Why are you so confident about who the NSA cares about?
COINTELPRO anyone?
Or if you are making a phone call or transferring data over the internet. They might not be bugging just any guy but they track everything they can.
I wonder how those telemetry systems work for EU customers. Cause that sounds pretty much illegal under GDPR (non-consented tracking, data stored overseas...)
Works just fine. The major German carmakers have an alliance to share data, and treat cars as roving sensor networks.
The data is used for improved road safety (real-time traffic jam awareness) and also so premium clients can find parking spots.
The data is used for improved road safety (real-time traffic jam awareness) and also so premium clients can find parking spots.
Do you have a source for these claims? Without informed consent, they would be significant breaches of both national data protection legislation and the GDPR.
People tend to VASTLY overstate what sort of protections you get under the GPDR, to the point that I tend to assume nobody has actually read the regulations built off it.
In this case, there is no protection for data from your car, beyond the fact that carmakers don't want to share it. Writing regulations to cover it is being done now, and the tug of war is between giving any company who wants it access and giving companies the car manufacturers themselves select and get paid by access to it.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/your-c...
In this case, there is no protection for data from your car, beyond the fact that carmakers don't want to share it. Writing regulations to cover it is being done now, and the tug of war is between giving any company who wants it access and giving companies the car manufacturers themselves select and get paid by access to it.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/your-c...
This is nonsense. The protections of both national and EU regulations apply to personal data collected via your car.
I can only ask that you refrain from spreading misinformation - it muddies the waters.
I can only ask that you refrain from spreading misinformation - it muddies the waters.
Read the article I linked yourself, no misinformation.
Quoting:
The contest is entering a pivotal phase as EU regulators look to hammer out the world's first laws for the ballooning industry around web-enabled vehicles, pitting carmakers against a coalition of insurers, leasing companies and repair shops.
[...]
Car manufacturers, guarding their gatekeeper role in accessing data from their vehicles, have resisted specific regulations for in-vehicle data, saying that protecting consumers is paramount.
"Europe's auto industry is committed to giving access to the data generated by the vehicles it produces," said a spokesperson for the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA). "However, uncontrolled access to in-vehicle data poses major safety, (cyber) security, data protection and privacy threats."
Quoting:
The contest is entering a pivotal phase as EU regulators look to hammer out the world's first laws for the ballooning industry around web-enabled vehicles, pitting carmakers against a coalition of insurers, leasing companies and repair shops.
[...]
Car manufacturers, guarding their gatekeeper role in accessing data from their vehicles, have resisted specific regulations for in-vehicle data, saying that protecting consumers is paramount.
"Europe's auto industry is committed to giving access to the data generated by the vehicles it produces," said a spokesperson for the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA). "However, uncontrolled access to in-vehicle data poses major safety, (cyber) security, data protection and privacy threats."
I did read the article. It doesn't make the same claims that you do, and - strangely - it doesn't superceded national and EU regulation.
I do not know for cars, but some major news websites in France and Germany are still not GDPR compliant (no cookie consent), yet nothing happens.
There's definitely a decided lack of enforcement across the bloc. Location data collected via vehicle telemetry would be a significant breach, though.
I wonder what percentage of people are aware that their car is tracking them at all times. Surveillance capitalism is scary.
And this is exactly why I have a manufactured in 2016 Subaru. I saw this regulation going into effect, investigated what vehicle would last the longest, and purchased the last available non-snitch personal vehicle generation.
We're in the initial stages of a new dark age for humanity. Surveillance Capitalism and our generalized Adult Immaturity is going to swallow the free world, and it may be hundreds of years before actual human maturity develops to allow whatever comes after.
We're in the initial stages of a new dark age for humanity. Surveillance Capitalism and our generalized Adult Immaturity is going to swallow the free world, and it may be hundreds of years before actual human maturity develops to allow whatever comes after.
the NSA is certainly real, the likelihood of them bugging your car unless you're smuggling nuclear secrets is rather low
the three letter agencies don't care about people who play video games and watch cat videos all day
the three letter agencies don't care about people who play video games and watch cat videos all day
> unless you're smuggling nuclear secrets
unless you're suspected of smuggling nuclear secrets
ftfy
unless you're suspected of smuggling nuclear secrets
ftfy
For several months, keyless entry stopped working on my car. It fixed itself. My unlikely conspiracy theory is I was being tracked and interference kept the keyfob from working.
If this is America, it would be the FBI who has jurisdiction. If this was outside America, CIA would be more likely to be installing hardware on a vehicle. If you hear the guys breathing on your phone line, that's probably the NSA ;)
If your car has a networked computer it’s probably bugged/backdoored imo.
(Talking out of my ass)
(Talking out of my ass)
If it is a Tesla they advertise this as a feature.
You make it sound like the NSA can never fail. If it's monitoring you then you are likely doing something deserving of monitoring. They can be wrong though and you'll still have been spied on and information collected for future use. Consider a career in politics, perhaps?
And yet they engage in mass surveillance, even of their own citizens.
No, no. That's done by the contractors they ship data to. Otherwise they would be breaking federal laws.
The NSA isn't interested enough in you to send somebody to your house to break into your car and install a gps tracker.
Imagine if they got some in at an F&I company and convinced car dealers to install the surveillance without the installers even being aware of it
They are imagining being part or the target of a conspiracy. It's a paranoid quirk of American politics, all sides see scheming and conspiracy.
Catholics, Communists, Woke subversives, or white supremacists. If you are part of American politics there is a mainstream conspiracy theory that your group has.
Catholics, Communists, Woke subversives, or white supremacists. If you are part of American politics there is a mainstream conspiracy theory that your group has.
I wouldn't buy a new car without demanding this to be removed and restored to factory condition at the pre-delivery inspection.
used cars, on the other hand, are a different story. complain to American Honda perhaps? Contact info for anyone's convenience:
https://owners.honda.com/help/customer-relations
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Mail Stop: CHI-5
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
used cars, on the other hand, are a different story. complain to American Honda perhaps? Contact info for anyone's convenience:
https://owners.honda.com/help/customer-relations
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Mail Stop: CHI-5
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Nice, that's exactly the switchgear at least.
Ahh. Looks familiar. A dealer in the PNW installed one of these (without our knowledge) in a Honda CRV we purchased. Something about anti theft and vehicle recovery by finance, for all the cars on their lot.
The car had all sorts of crazy power problems. Smart display would randomly crash, interior lights wouldn’t work, just… flakey.
Called the dealer and demanded they remove this. Electrical problems went away instantly.
Super frustrating.
The car had all sorts of crazy power problems. Smart display would randomly crash, interior lights wouldn’t work, just… flakey.
Called the dealer and demanded they remove this. Electrical problems went away instantly.
Super frustrating.
They put them in so that they can use a single key fob to open up all the cars in the lot. There's a socket that accepts a module. When they sell the car, they pop out their key fob module and pop in the "security system" blinking LED module and try to upsell you $1K for the privilege of having your wire harness butchered.
This is the most accurate answer in this thread. Toyota dealers in Northern California did this to me twice on new cars. (A third party autosound guy removed it and fixed the harness for me)
Even though we always pay in full for cars, the dealer has you talk to the finance guy who will try to sell you useless addons like undercoating and an “alarm system” which has already been butchered into the car by the dealer. (If you buy it they would stick a key module with a blinking red light under the dash somewhere, but most of the circuit is already there.)
Even though we always pay in full for cars, the dealer has you talk to the finance guy who will try to sell you useless addons like undercoating and an “alarm system” which has already been butchered into the car by the dealer. (If you buy it they would stick a key module with a blinking red light under the dash somewhere, but most of the circuit is already there.)
> useless addons like undercoating
Bad example really. Depending on car age that might be insane value.
If people treated their cars like boats the car bodies would last for 30 years easely. Take it up once a year and paint the belly ...
Bad example really. Depending on car age that might be insane value.
If people treated their cars like boats the car bodies would last for 30 years easely. Take it up once a year and paint the belly ...
Dealer undercoatings are a scam. They are significantly overpriced. You can get it done elsewhere for much less or do it yourself.
Oh ok. I assume they entomb dirt and rust in the coating to keep costs down? Or do it when it is not needed?
I just wanted to defend the awesome concept of "painting" the belly of cars.
I just wanted to defend the awesome concept of "painting" the belly of cars.
They also like to install brake light flashers, and pull them out if you object. So annoying.
"Brake light flashers"?
That's pretty wild that this is sold as aftermarket. This is baked into VAG & BMW car products for at least the last 12 years, and it was on my 2015 S1000XR, but it'll only activate under hard braking scenarios. I don't know if i'd want this to activate for every brake press, at least here in the UK i've gotten used to the idea flashing brake lights = car ahead is braking very hard.
I've never seen flashing brake lights, but indicators flash on very hard braking. It first showed up on the first-gen Citroën C5, and was copied by everyone else after that. On the C5, it was part of the "emergency brake assist", which would basically work out that if you were doing an emergency stop, you really wanted to throw out the anchors and dump all the hydraulic pressure into the brakes.
Ahh you’re right - it’s hazards that flash, it’s not the brake lights.
OT: I was wondering if you were gordonjcp of scotlug fame (i don’t expect you’d remember me, i used to attend / was briefly active circa 2002-2004) but the mention of Citroen sealed it :-) hope you’re well!
OT: I was wondering if you were gordonjcp of scotlug fame (i don’t expect you’d remember me, i used to attend / was briefly active circa 2002-2004) but the mention of Citroen sealed it :-) hope you’re well!
I am, yes. I think I remember you? Were you at Strath at the time? That must have been the Livvy Tower/Counting House era.
It was yeah, i was at GU so Livvy felt like a sneak peek behind the scenes of how the other half lived. I remember getting loads of help writing my first linux kernel module in the Counting House with a bunch of folks huddled over my laptop :-D good memories.
Flashing brake lights in certain circumstances are required in the EU (Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices 2016/1723), although the linked brake light flashers seem to be unlawful as they flash on onset of braking rather than extreme braking force.
Previous discussion of another device from the same crappy vendor:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30833566
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30833566#30838294
I discovered it when my new car started having the same issues you saw.
NOTE: it's somewhere between a scam and a crappy business practice. Here in southern california it's by no means only used cars or shady financing. The dealers install them on all the cars to keep track of their own inventory. Then they try to sell it to you as a kind of lojack for $$$$. If you are smart and decline, they just deactivate the unit (stop paying for the service), but do you think that they remove it? or repair the wiring?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30833566
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30833566#30838294
I discovered it when my new car started having the same issues you saw.
NOTE: it's somewhere between a scam and a crappy business practice. Here in southern california it's by no means only used cars or shady financing. The dealers install them on all the cars to keep track of their own inventory. Then they try to sell it to you as a kind of lojack for $$$$. If you are smart and decline, they just deactivate the unit (stop paying for the service), but do you think that they remove it? or repair the wiring?
> A dealer in the PNW installed one of these (without our knowledge) in a Honda CRV we purchased
Why do I get the feeling that If i did that to the car I sold privately, I would be in jail really fast?
Why do I get the feeling that If i did that to the car I sold privately, I would be in jail really fast?
Anti theft and Vehicle recovery look strange next to each other.
That sounds like something that would invalidate an insurance policy and exposes the dealer to all sorts of liability.
This reminds me of that time a guy on Reddit found a tracker on his car and ended up being FBI's.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dmh5s/does_this...
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/doe17/update_to...
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dmh5s/does_this...
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/doe17/update_to...
Wow, that's insane. I thought those "I'm definitely bugged now" / "I'm on a list now" comments on Reddit were just jokes but apparently not.
Now they just ask your cell phone company.
... and claim that they got the data from "apps".
Really, we swear. But we can't tell you which ones. Maybe the apps running on the cell towers.
Really, we swear. But we can't tell you which ones. Maybe the apps running on the cell towers.
I'm guessing that nearly everybody knows this by now, and for those occasional times when burying a body or whatever, would leave the phone at home.
Down here there was a murder case recently. The suspect always replied prompt on his messages, except for the 2 hours during that murder. His phone was supposedly at home with him being out.
There were many more juicy bits in that case, but this part is somewhat in the context of the discussion. The message seemed to be, plan better next time :)
There were many more juicy bits in that case, but this part is somewhat in the context of the discussion. The message seemed to be, plan better next time :)
Could you provide a link where I can read more details about it? .. thanks
It is a case with many updated news articles as the story unfolded.
Here are 2 links in Dutch: https://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/de-gier-hangt-27-jaar-cel-bo... and https://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/de-gier-vrijgesproken-van-mo...
Aha, this is about the phone :) https://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/2089361/27-jaar-celstraf-geeis...
Here are 2 links in Dutch: https://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/de-gier-hangt-27-jaar-cel-bo... and https://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/de-gier-vrijgesproken-van-mo...
Aha, this is about the phone :) https://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/2089361/27-jaar-celstraf-geeis...
Joke aside, your car probably has a mobile connection by now and even the dealer/manufacturer has access to the data which means authorities don't need more than to purchase it. So you might want to leave the car at home too. And the smartwatch.
Actually, I don't have a car. Is there any good way to check for trackers embedded into shoe soles?
You joke, but some shoes have RFID tags in the soles.
Wear flipflops.
I suspect the cameras on buses can used to track where you're taking the body. Maybe also where you tap in/out with the extra fare for the bulky cargo.
This gives me a morbidly hilarious mental image of someone trying to dispose of a body using a bike trailer or cargo bike. Perhaps the rider might even feel a little self-satisfied about how environmentally friendly they're being by doing so.
That’s a fascinating read. Thanks.
Looks like a dealer installed 'alarm system'. I bought a mazda in 2011 which had a similar system, as best as I can tell the dealer installs them as asset trackers for cars on the lot and then tried to upsell it to me as an 'alarm system'. Its a bit sketchy that they didn't mention it to you when you bought the car...
The 433MHz is likely a keyfob receiver (and possibly transmitter to spoof the original key).
The 433MHz is likely a keyfob receiver (and possibly transmitter to spoof the original key).
Time for SDR inspection?
https://github.com/merbanan/rtl_433
https://github.com/merbanan/rtl_433
I had this exact system. If anyone is interested in removing it:
It has a bunch of "fake wires" acting as taps into the wiring harness, and it detects if you remove a tap and then trips trip a relay where it cuts the ignition wire that is rerouted through the unit. So I removed the device, and put the ignition wire back together and the car was back to normal. I think if OP's car still has warning lights go off, he likely nicked some of the other wires inadvertently, or broke them while pulling the taps out.
It has a bunch of "fake wires" acting as taps into the wiring harness, and it detects if you remove a tap and then trips trip a relay where it cuts the ignition wire that is rerouted through the unit. So I removed the device, and put the ignition wire back together and the car was back to normal. I think if OP's car still has warning lights go off, he likely nicked some of the other wires inadvertently, or broke them while pulling the taps out.
Aftermarket remote start.
Tracking devices don't need to be nearly so complicated nor hard wired into the ignition.
If it's a remote kill for a lease/lender then you'd expect some ability to transmit it's location. Why go through all the trouble of installing a remote kill that can't transmit it's location nor actually disable the car (it still works after removal)
[edit]
Going with the KARR "dealer alarm" per other post.
Tracking devices don't need to be nearly so complicated nor hard wired into the ignition.
If it's a remote kill for a lease/lender then you'd expect some ability to transmit it's location. Why go through all the trouble of installing a remote kill that can't transmit it's location nor actually disable the car (it still works after removal)
[edit]
Going with the KARR "dealer alarm" per other post.
Hrmm, must be a master-key type system as stated above because this car comes from Honda with remote start, which is still working after I excised this weird thing.
First hit on DDG for "PL884-200" is a asset tracker: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22PL884-200%22&t=fpas&ia=web
Perhaps this is a part of one of those units? They have "hard wired" as a option on the site, but it's greyed out.
Speculation: the site used to talk about a PL884-200 hardwire kit but they have since stopped selling it.
Perhaps this is a part of one of those units? They have "hard wired" as a option on the site, but it's greyed out.
Speculation: the site used to talk about a PL884-200 hardwire kit but they have since stopped selling it.
That 'first hit' (to the logistimatics result) appears to not contain the string 'PL884-200' anywhere on the page.
That's what my speciation covers. At some point the search engine decided that page is a good result for that string, the content may have shifted since then as it currently isn't, or perhaps someone is back linking to it with "PL884-200" in the href? Either way it's something a dealer would add after market to a car and it has some connection to PL884-200.
Is there a community for those interested in removing factory tracking from newer model cars? A recent discussion here mentioned how prevalent they are in vehicles made in the last decade. (No link, sorry.)
You could get some cheapo usb data logger and use sigrock to try and catch/decode whatever is being sent over the CAN bus! Would be fun to see!
I've heard of banks, and/or leasing agents install things so they can repo the vehicle even if it's not at a registered location.
I know some lower-end dealerships will install remote disable components on vehicles to disable in event of non-payment. This happened to a friend of mine. I don’t know if it goes as far as to report GPS coordinates.
Utilizing GPS for the repossession tracking has been a thing since at least 2012 https://youtu.be/npw4G1DOqaI
Looks like a crappy remote starter honestly. Those things butcher the wiring. You'd find something to bypass the ignition lock somewhere on the canbus network as well, I wager.
I’m a technician at a dealership, I can think of a couple of possibilities. First off, I think it’s an add-on remote start module. It’s possible that a different customer wanted one installed and then the deal fell through. Or they got the stock numbers mixed up and the tech installed it on the wrong car. That would explain no paperwork associated with the install. It could have been a “dealer trade” where your dealer trucked a car in from a different dealer. It’s not a huge deal, rip that stuff out and restore the stock wiring. We get 1 - 2 hours labor for that. It’s a cakewalk.
The second picture at https://www.ramforum.com/threads/what-is-this.187308/post-26... is rather concerning to me. Does this thing being installed irreversibly damage the car in some way, such that it will never be drivable again if you fully remove it, so if you don't want it anymore, you need to keep it forever anyway, just with their "de-activation module" inserted?
Remote starter. They are hack jobs to install. 435 MHz is the frequency the remote uses to start the car.
What is the usecase for a remote starter? I don't really understand why someone would want this. Could even be dangerous if it's left in gear.
It's hyper super duper useful in rough climates. Primarily when it's minus 40 outside and you have kids, it's nice to warm up the car slightly before entering it. If you get spoiled, you might then also remote start it when it's plus 40 outside and you want ac to at least start.
Also note that "if it's left in gear" is virtually irrelevant in North America, fwiw - something like under 2 percent of cars here are manual. Vast majority of vehicles and models do not have it as an option.
Also note that "if it's left in gear" is virtually irrelevant in North America, fwiw - something like under 2 percent of cars here are manual. Vast majority of vehicles and models do not have it as an option.
Here it's cold in the winter and it is definitely illegal to install a remote start system in a car with a manual transmission.
Before my life in tech I worked in car audio installs back in the 90s.
One day one of the senior installer techs put a remote start in his own Mazda truck which had a manual transmission. A bit of time went by and we were outside smoking one day when he must have hit the button in this pocket. Apparently the e-brake wasn't on, and the truck was in first gear, so it started and drove across the parking lot and hit the wall of a building as we all watched.
Before my life in tech I worked in car audio installs back in the 90s.
One day one of the senior installer techs put a remote start in his own Mazda truck which had a manual transmission. A bit of time went by and we were outside smoking one day when he must have hit the button in this pocket. Apparently the e-brake wasn't on, and the truck was in first gear, so it started and drove across the parking lot and hit the wall of a building as we all watched.
A proper remote starter for a manual transmission has sensors to ensure the vehicle is in neutral with the handbrake on.
> A proper remote starter
That's the key part. Proper :)
IIRC he just bypassed the sensor that would have been for Park on an automatic, since there were no manual transmission kits for sale as they were (and I think still are) illegal for sale where I live.
He would even refuse to do this sort of thing for other people so it was pretty funny it happened to him.
That's the key part. Proper :)
IIRC he just bypassed the sensor that would have been for Park on an automatic, since there were no manual transmission kits for sale as they were (and I think still are) illegal for sale where I live.
He would even refuse to do this sort of thing for other people so it was pretty funny it happened to him.
A remote start should have a slider switch and a lock for it, so you can't "push the button" by sitting on it.
My factory one on a factory fob requires 3 presses within a second to activate.
It was and add-on to a car alarm and controlled via second or third button on the fob. Also 1994.
Thanks also, I get it now. I used to do this manually sometimes in the Netherlands to warm up the ice to make it easier to scrape off. But it involved the spare key to relock it while running and also to set the heat to full blast. We never get minus 40 though and where I live now it doesn't even freeze :)
And as we also have pretty tiny engines here, it takes a long time to heat up this way because first the cooling water needs to get warm which takes ages with the engine running stationary. So I only did this once in a while if it was really needed.
My old Volvo did have an option to open all the windows with the remote though which was great to let the heat out in summer.
And as we also have pretty tiny engines here, it takes a long time to heat up this way because first the cooling water needs to get warm which takes ages with the engine running stationary. So I only did this once in a while if it was really needed.
My old Volvo did have an option to open all the windows with the remote though which was great to let the heat out in summer.
Note that, for emmesions, heating up the car in stationary is actually positive. It prevents driving a car with a cold engine. Cold engines cause horrible inefficiency in cars. It's one of the reasons why city driving is worse for mileage and emissions than highway driving. Shorter trips.
I am unable to find a source for this. Until now I thought heating up stationary is bad concerning all possible aspects, including emissions.
Seems to be caused by the period before the catalytic converter gets up to normal exhaust temperature.
“Vehicles fitted with catalytic converters emit most of their total pollution during the first five minutes of engine operation; for example, before the catalytic converter has warmed up sufficiently to be fully effective.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
“Vehicles fitted with catalytic converters emit most of their total pollution during the first five minutes of engine operation; for example, before the catalytic converter has warmed up sufficiently to be fully effective.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
Sure. But otoh the car is idling for tens of minutes maybe and possibly no single part of the engine and exhaust system is gaining the needed temperatures to operate cleanly. This means more emissions, more wear and more stressed out neighbours. I'm sure about the last one at least.
There is probably a sweet spot. Certainly, you want to avoid loading a cold engine too much. But don't idle for qn hour either.
But then you cause those bad emissions in your car park while it's heating up :)
I don't there is a big benefit overall.
I don't there is a big benefit overall.
Almost every car I’ve recently owned and/or rented has this option: unlock the car, then hold down the unlock button to roll all the windows down (and in some models, additionally open the sunroof).
I hate this feature with all my heart. Ive never needed it or wanted it and can easily roll down my own windows. 4-5 times ive come back to my car and windows rolled down after shopping or working as i must have accidentally activated it.
Same for the remote trunk opener. I can't count how many times people rang my doorbell at night to alert my the trunk is open.
Why on earth?
I hate it when it's operated by remote, but it's really nice to do it with the key in the lock. If you have to leave your car outside in the sun and you know it won't be raining, you can easily crack all the windows 1.5 inches or so to let the heat easily escape your car.
I didn't realize the percentage of manual transmissions was so low, no wonder the car culture there seems to idolize it.
In my climate, on a 45c day, inside the car's going to be more than that. It's definitely a workout for the generally imported car's A/C unit. I am guilty of turning the car on and waiting under a tree or something for the AC to bring the temperature down to at least ambient.
I'm looking at a series hybrid car. I must admit, pre-conditioning the car off the battery would be pretty luxurious.
In my climate, on a 45c day, inside the car's going to be more than that. It's definitely a workout for the generally imported car's A/C unit. I am guilty of turning the car on and waiting under a tree or something for the AC to bring the temperature down to at least ambient.
I'm looking at a series hybrid car. I must admit, pre-conditioning the car off the battery would be pretty luxurious.
> I didn't realize the percentage of manual transmissions was so low, no wonder the car culture there seems to idolize it.
Yeah, it's getting more and more difficult to even buy them at all over here. Rather slim pickings.
Yeah, it's getting more and more difficult to even buy them at all over here. Rather slim pickings.
Electric A/C for car is really underrated feature. It is rarely mentioned on hybrid vehicle. Efficient idling is what I want to have at least.
Spoiled? Being low tolerant to anything above 23C I find getting into these pressure cookers a very uncomfortable experience. I’m simply refusing to get a taxi when such happy summer driver arrives with windows down in 35C+. I’d better get into an ice cold car rather than that.
I live in a country where it's above 23 degrees most of the year :) I got used to it. When I first got here I used to wear T-Shirts in winter at the agony of my colleagues. But the second year was a lot tougher..
My car is manual, and I always leave it in gear when parked in case the parking brake fails.
That's why they make remote starters with clutch lockouts. Can't remote start if in gear.
Most people in the US do not drive manuals. You can get them in manuals but you have to hack some stuff, and yea, it will stall your car out if you start it in gear. In the US they are largely for convenience so you can heat or cool your car before you go out.
No manual I have ever driven will even start without the clutch engaged, so I assume a remote starter can bypass that somehow?
I always leave my manual car in gear in the opposite the direction the car would be likely to roll if the emergency brake ever failed. (If the car would roll forward, put it in reverse. If it would roll backwards put it in 1st).
I always leave my manual car in gear in the opposite the direction the car would be likely to roll if the emergency brake ever failed. (If the car would roll forward, put it in reverse. If it would roll backwards put it in 1st).
Just to clarify for less automobile oriented people: The clutch is engaged when the pedal is not being pressed, and disengages when pressed. Starting a manual car in gear without the clutch pedal fully pressed leaves the power train connected to the motor, and so the car moves when the starter motor turns the engine.
I am the GP of the comment, and that was my mistake. Thank you for the clarification because I did not know this. I meant, "the clutch pedal fully pressed" in my GP comment.
There's plenty that do, and in fact UK driving test examiners would frequently slip a car into gear before the candidate makes their first start. If they hop the car, it's an automatic fail, before you even get out on the road.
All the cars I've owned in Europe (all manual) had no lock out whatsoever.. No need to press the clutch or brake for the starter too work.
Having said that, when I still had a car I used to drive old cars. My newest car was a 2005 Volvo S40. But this was also perfectly capable of starting in gear and with the clutch engaged.
My first car still had a choke :)
Having said that, when I still had a car I used to drive old cars. My newest car was a 2005 Volvo S40. But this was also perfectly capable of starting in gear and with the clutch engaged.
My first car still had a choke :)
All of my vehicles were owned in the USA, and maybe that has something to do with it? Every model of car I have driven had this -- late 80s BMW, multiple Volkswagens, and a Jeep Wrangler. Hell, the John Deere farm equipment I grew up using (tractors, old lawn mowers, etc.) all had this too.
> My first car still had a choke :)
What car? Was it a Datsun by chance?
> My first car still had a choke :)
What car? Was it a Datsun by chance?
There's nothing preventing the engine from turning backwards. Engage the highest gear if you are worried your handbrake will give out.
Put it in 1st to stop the car from moving. Put it in 4th to push start it.
You haven’t driven a lot of manuals then. My friend’s dad once got his hyundai up the porch starting it with a gear in.
I think that modern cars have electronics that keep you from starting the car without the clutch pressed. Cars I owned in the 80s and 90s would engage the starter when you turned the keys. Cars since then won't engage the starter unless the clutch is in.
Even my 80s and 90s cars have a clutch switch (though the 87 is Japanese, can't speak for American cars in that decade). No pedal, no start.
It’s not necessarily a good thing. Imagine stalling on the train tracks and being unable to start the engine. You could still move the car using the starter motor, but not if it refuses to with the clutch engaged.
My 2004 audi a4 def didn’t have any switch like that but yeah seems like they started installing it everywhere some time in the last 10-15 years
Subaru Forester and XV do that. No gear in - car starts without clutch.
Mine will.
Ah I forgot about that. All my own cars were manuals.
And I've lived mostly in countries with pretty mild climates so there wasn't any need for this. Though even in the Netherlands this could be handy in the middle of winter or summer. Beats scraping the windows.
And I've lived mostly in countries with pretty mild climates so there wasn't any need for this. Though even in the Netherlands this could be handy in the middle of winter or summer. Beats scraping the windows.
To heat your car when it’s cold outside, prior to your entry.
Also to cool your car when it's hot outside. Was 105F/40C today where I live. The parking lot will can significantly hotter than that in direct sun on tarmac surfaces.
Cold weather primarily. You need the engine to warm up before driving and it’s much nicer to have the heater warm up the car and loosen ice on the windows.
You can run outside and start the car then come back, as I did growing up in a cold region, but remote start is sooo much nicer.
You can run outside and start the car then come back, as I did growing up in a cold region, but remote start is sooo much nicer.
Cars built in the last 15 years usually don't need to be warned up:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a19086/...
But yeah, icy/foggy windows are a pain to clear.
I live in Montreal, and when I had an ICE car, most days, it was fine to just de-icing the windows, then start the motor, and slowly roll out of the alley. Admittedly, most winter days, it's not that cold.
Kind of drives me crazy, the smell and pollution from idling ICE cars :/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a19086/...
But yeah, icy/foggy windows are a pain to clear.
I live in Montreal, and when I had an ICE car, most days, it was fine to just de-icing the windows, then start the motor, and slowly roll out of the alley. Admittedly, most winter days, it's not that cold.
Kind of drives me crazy, the smell and pollution from idling ICE cars :/
> Cars built in the last 15 years usually don't need to be warned up:
They don't need to be warmed up for the engine. They still might need to be warmed up for the driver, though.
They don't need to be warmed up for the engine. They still might need to be warmed up for the driver, though.
Sometimes you can’t drive until the defroster is warm enough to keep your own breath from fogging the windshield.
> But yeah, icy/foggy windows are a pain to clear.
I've had cars with auxiliary heat just for this purpose.
I've had cars with auxiliary heat just for this purpose.
I had wondered if the engine bit was still necessary, thank you.
Makes sense yeah. Sometimes I'd do this manually but because I used a shared car park I'd need the spare key to do this safely with the main key in the ignition. I didn't consider this option. I haven't owned a car for many years and the last one was already pretty old :)
The one I installed tied into the brake light circuit, such that pressing on the brake would kill the remote starter’s completion of the “run” circuit. That’s a simple and fairly effective way to prevent a casual drive-off.
I've looked at remote start systems. The specs always require an automatic transmission. The use case is simple: Today's high is 111F (44C), if the car is parked in the sun it's going to be a lot warmer than that inside. In those conditions we typically open the doors and wait a little bit before entering--using a remote start to turn the AC on a minute or two before getting in would be nice.
Living in winter. Preheating the vehicle.
(That’s what I use mine for, which is factory installed.)
[deleted]
[deleted]
What an interesting coincidence, I was just watching a video on how people keep their cars warm in Yakutia, and this is the sort of thing they use.
[deleted]
Wow. I can't help you identify the device, but curious if you have any ideas as to who might've installed this. Did your car have a previous owner?
New car, bought from dealer, who swear they did not install it and are blaming another dealer from whom they acquired the vehicle.
As far as the dealer goes I intend to make a lot of over-the-top demands and threats until they replace the wiring with all-new OEM parts and a lifetime warranty, but I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7, demanding a completely new vehicle, and seeing what happens.
As far as the dealer goes I intend to make a lot of over-the-top demands and threats until they replace the wiring with all-new OEM parts and a lifetime warranty, but I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7, demanding a completely new vehicle, and seeing what happens.
I encourage heavy demands, and talking with an attorney if they so much as twitch about it. “All the warning lights on” in a brand new car is a special hell.
Then, regardless, perhaps file a complaint with the appropriate state agency # they’re probably quite interested in what a prior dealer might’ve done…
Then, regardless, perhaps file a complaint with the appropriate state agency # they’re probably quite interested in what a prior dealer might’ve done…
> I think I'll start from just pointing to California Penal Code 637.7
I would strongly advise not doing that until you can prove that this was in fact a tracking device. I think a remote start/cutoff is much more likely, c.f.:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040472
I would strongly advise not doing that until you can prove that this was in fact a tracking device. I think a remote start/cutoff is much more likely, c.f.:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040472
You’re better off just disconnecting it than getting new wiring. Wiring harness replacements are notorious for requiring obscene amounts of interior disassembly, and you might just end up with annoying squeaks and rattles.
Depending on the car it may not even be possible, some Volvos for instance are notorious for being complete write offs if the wiring loom is faulty because it ends up being sandwiched in between the bottom shell plates prior to welding and there is simply no good way to replace it without wrecking the car in the process.
Have you pulled a Carfax report for the vehicle? What’s the title history look like?
New car, bought from dealer, who swear they did not install it and are blaming another dealer from whom they acquired the vehicle.
It's possible. Something like that happened with my wife's car. We only found out about the tracking device when they sent us a bill in the mail to activate the tracking service.
It's possible. Something like that happened with my wife's car. We only found out about the tracking device when they sent us a bill in the mail to activate the tracking service.
Did they (or will they) tell you who the other dealer is? If they won't, then maybe the "other dealer" is a fiction to try to make you stop blaming them.
(I would expect that they would be reluctant to name another dealer that was actually innocent, knowing that it could turn into a libel lawsuit.)
(I would expect that they would be reluctant to name another dealer that was actually innocent, knowing that it could turn into a libel lawsuit.)
Did you finance it?
Found this: https://thriveglobal.com/stories/drivers-need-to-be-aware-th...
But you'd think it'd be more clearly a GPS device.
Found this: https://thriveglobal.com/stories/drivers-need-to-be-aware-th...
But you'd think it'd be more clearly a GPS device.
My Honda dealer back when I had crummy credit "included" a gps but it was never explained why and I tried to say I wasn't really interested. Somehow I ended up agreeing, likely due to some interest rate bait and switch as referenced elsewhere.
They couldn't "install" it there so I drove off the lot. They started calling the next week to schedule the installation and I wasn't very eager to go quickly. It became apparent they really wanted this installed and eventually bothered me enough that I acquiesced.
This brought no gps functionality to the car itself so I quickly realized this was because I had ~ 610 FICO and they expected to repo the thing at some point.
I paid it off but never bothered to remove it and the whole thing really bugged me. Nobody mentioned anything the last time I bought a car with an 800+ FICO so this is either for bad credit buyers or they just do it without asking now.
They couldn't "install" it there so I drove off the lot. They started calling the next week to schedule the installation and I wasn't very eager to go quickly. It became apparent they really wanted this installed and eventually bothered me enough that I acquiesced.
This brought no gps functionality to the car itself so I quickly realized this was because I had ~ 610 FICO and they expected to repo the thing at some point.
I paid it off but never bothered to remove it and the whole thing really bugged me. Nobody mentioned anything the last time I bought a car with an 800+ FICO so this is either for bad credit buyers or they just do it without asking now.
> New car, bought from dealer
Call the automakers regional representative.
Call the automakers regional representative.
I've seen people find tracking devices on former rental cars.
Could it possibly be some sort of aftermarket Remote Start?
That’s not a tracking device, and those are pretty common aftermarket additions.
That’s not a tracking device, and those are pretty common aftermarket additions.
> Car starts and runs without it, but every warning light on the dashboard comes on.
Yeah, the simplest explanation is still that it is supposed to be there, but has been spliced in there to save some time and has an as of yet unknown purpose.
Yeah, the simplest explanation is still that it is supposed to be there, but has been spliced in there to save some time and has an as of yet unknown purpose.
If you have a loan on the car, it’s quite possible the lender or the dealer installed it.
You can search YouTube for repo tracking devices.
You can search YouTube for repo tracking devices.
OP, check your camera settings and maybe replace the images with ones containing less metadata. No contact info in your bio or I would have privately notified you. Privacy is difficult, so good luck to you. (edited to make comment less specific)
Ironic that they tracked themselves, but less overt ways of informing OP…
Thanks and good point.
On the off chance it’s meant to do something useful:
https://fccid.io/frequency-explorer.php?lower=435&upper=435
GitHub required me to log in to see the content on this link. Are they going all the way of Facebook, Twitter and other shady patterns practitioners?
Update: was unable to reproduce, maybe an a/b test or security check.
Update: was unable to reproduce, maybe an a/b test or security check.
That's strange. I did not have to. I wonder if it was based on your user agent, or some anti-crawler detection?
I have noticed this with a lot of websites recently, things like Twitter and Instagram only sometimes ask me to log in to view things. Reddit as well, will be happy to show me some article, then later that same day it'll ask me to log in.
I have noticed this with a lot of websites recently, things like Twitter and Instagram only sometimes ask me to log in to view things. Reddit as well, will be happy to show me some article, then later that same day it'll ask me to log in.
You are right. I logged out, and then proceeded to view the gist without logging in. Maybe they left some tracking cookie after log out (like device id), or they invalidated my previous session and triggered login on that invalidated session.
Just in case you want to look at the transmission with an RTL-SDR or something like that: it transmits on 433.92MHz for an an external reference of 6.7458MHz. It's on page 8 of the CY800 datasheet.
It's an aftermarket car alarm and the button is the valet button. Pretty stupid to install one in such a new car as the car itself likely has better security than the alarm (exception of KIA/Hyndai).
Most of the time, when people think law enforcement is tracking their vehicle location, it turns out to be that the person's wife is aware that they are cheating, and is building a case.
This is probably to aid repossession, I saw similar discussions on jalopnik which means it was on Reddit cars inevitably
Dealers suck, I know everyone hates Tesla but they showed the path to getting rid of dealers
Dealers suck, I know everyone hates Tesla but they showed the path to getting rid of dealers
Not a car hacker but:
> The device uses the car's cellular data peripheral to send this information somewhere.
Maybe somebody can find what that somewhere is, or help with how to go about that.
> The device uses the car's cellular data peripheral to send this information somewhere.
Maybe somebody can find what that somewhere is, or help with how to go about that.
Garage door opener?
Odometer modifier?
Remote kill switch?
On a forum, someone identified this is a "KARR" aftermarket alarm system and included a pic of, what appears to be, the same device. https://www.ramforum.com/threads/what-is-this.187308/#post-2...
I've seen this quite a bit from dealerships that purchase rental vehicles from suppliers after they've become out of date, or the rental company wants to offload them. The rental company won't bother removing the tracking/remote start bundle, and the dealer will happily sell it none the wiser, or worse, as a added feature.
I'm far from an expert in this field, but that looks an awful lot like a 3rd part remote start add on.
Here's a tear down of one that looks pretty similar in principle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chw__TwMgdI
Here's a tear down of one that looks pretty similar in principle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chw__TwMgdI
I'm guessing it's remote ignition, triggered by a fob key. Not all that suspicious really
I want to point out something. Even though this device is/was most likely innocuous, it should also be clear that such non-factory, seemingly innocuous devices could easily contain and cloak something of concern. Quick googling finds for example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
Wasn't that Bloomberg article found to be false? Don't take my word for it, look it up, but I remember hearing Bloomberg take a big reputation hit after that one.
I just copied the first thing I found. Thanks for the update. My point still stands. We have to be increasingly careful about accessories we plug in. Here's perhaps a more relevant example: https://counterespionage.com/malicious-usb-cables/
That story and the followups have always been and remain extremely suspect. https://www.google.com/search?q=bloomberg+supermicro+story
Any chance you could add a photo of the full board?
Looks like an aftermarket alarm system (and some of the other comments seem to confirm that).
Looks like an aftermarket alarm system (and some of the other comments seem to confirm that).
This is probably to aid repossession, I saw similar discussions on jalopnik which means it was on Reddit cars inevitably
Where’d you buy it? If from loanshark used car lot, it’s probably a remote shutoff to be used if you miss payments.
It looks like a remote starter to me
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Puzzled at the upvotes. Like everyone says, this is a run of the mill aftermarket alarm system installed by a dealership. It's the car version of crapware. This is not a tracker.
blame your stealership, and don't buy cars from them unless they remove this garbage at the pre-delivery inspection
It’s a car alarm.
Kids these days…
Kids these days…
If you are in EU and/or a civilized country you should probably notify your national privacy / GDPR responsible ombudsman.
Warning: all photos shot by Apple iPhone SE in your gist have GPS info.
So.. yeah, this post may expose your location better than this device.
So.. yeah, this post may expose your location better than this device.
Hint that suggests a "world" where people keep the GPS connection on as standard practice. Which is perplexing on so many levels, not last that the GPS is one of the most energy costly services I know - consideration relevant between impact on battery life and general "keeping the lights on and the engine running when away".
They mostly don't really use actual GPS. Instead they use AGPS [1] tech that uses nearby hotspots, cellar signal triangulation etc. to get your location.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
And can you disable it when unneeded (i.e. "99%" of the time) - like you would with GPS (not only because of consumption)?
According to the provided page, Assisted GNSS only works through an Internet connection - to connect to servers that provide cached GPS data. Triangulation comes from other technologies.
According to the provided page, Assisted GNSS only works through an Internet connection - to connect to servers that provide cached GPS data. Triangulation comes from other technologies.
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Amazingly paranoid post about what is obviously a car alarm.
Obvious? I wouldn't have known what the hell that was. Going by the comments, it looks like a lot of other folks weren't sure what it was either.
Don't be so quick to put other people down. It's not good to have that kind of thing in a community.
Don't be so quick to put other people down. It's not good to have that kind of thing in a community.
What about the guys who thought it was obviously a remote starter?
not a car person here: what make it obvious that it's a car alarm?
So, long story short, it's not a tracking device, it's an aftermarket alarm system?
Guess what folks: with few exceptions, no one cares about tracking you. Enough with the paranoia already.
Guess what folks: with few exceptions, no one cares about tracking you. Enough with the paranoia already.
Tracking has gotten trivial, airtags are being used this way pretty regularly.
Try respawning as a woman and see how far this few exceptions attitude gets you?
Try respawning as a woman and see how far this few exceptions attitude gets you?
The author of the linked post is not a woman.
“Guess what folks: with few exceptions, no one cares about tracking you. Enough with the paranoia already.”
Few exceptions: Like you know, being one of the 49.6% of people…
Few exceptions: Like you know, being one of the 49.6% of people…
Yeah, and this thing probably didn't appear overnight. It's probably always been there since he's had the car.
It's part of a new public relations & civic service initiative offered by the NSA. If you forget where you parked your car all you have to do is whisper near your phone (Even if it's off!) "Hey, NSA guys, where's my car?"
They'll honk the horn and, if necessary, send a micro drone to your location that you can follow to it if it's too far away to hear the horn or you're hearing impaired.
They'll honk the horn and, if necessary, send a micro drone to your location that you can follow to it if it's too far away to hear the horn or you're hearing impaired.
When I got home I looked under the dash and straight away I could see someone other than Honda had been in here. The first thing I saw was this surface-mounted switch that doesn't belong there.
Does anyone else find it odd that he just bought a car and effectively started using it without going over it thoroughly and familiarising himself with what controls it contains? Then again, my experience has been with far older and simpler vehicles, so perhaps newer ones are so complex that people have given up spending any time to become acquainted with them.
Does anyone else find it odd that he just bought a car and effectively started using it without going over it thoroughly and familiarising himself with what controls it contains? Then again, my experience has been with far older and simpler vehicles, so perhaps newer ones are so complex that people have given up spending any time to become acquainted with them.
No, this was not in a location you would see during normal end-user operation of the car given that most users will never do much more than wash the car and refill fluids. Neither is it expected behavior by an official dealership to install undisclosed components. Especially when the salesperson will (in my experience) do a pretty thorough tour of the car, under the hood, obscure storage compartments etc, and the aftermarket component in this post would not have been in a locations reviewed as part of that.
If this was a desktop computer I certainly would expect even a moderately knowledgeable user to open a computer direct for the manufacturer or retailer before using it to see if there were unauthorized components present.
If this was a desktop computer I certainly would expect even a moderately knowledgeable user to open a computer direct for the manufacturer or retailer before using it to see if there were unauthorized components present.
You acquaint yourself with the underside of the dash of a new-to-you car before driving it?
I’m quite interested in cars (do all the repairs in our household except body, paint, and tires) and I’ve never looked under the dash before driving off, unless I was attaching a scan tool on a used car I was buying.
I’m quite interested in cars (do all the repairs in our household except body, paint, and tires) and I’ve never looked under the dash before driving off, unless I was attaching a scan tool on a used car I was buying.
Not before, but certainly after --- and certainly some models have controls like the hood release as well as adjustments for the steering wheel and pedal position there.
Ha, well blame me for that I guess, but none of this stuff is visible from a normal seated position. You have to crawl under the steering wheel to see any of it.
When buying a factory-new car I do not ordinarily rip off the dashboard trim panels to see if the wiring has been tampered with.
When buying a factory-new car I do not ordinarily rip off the dashboard trim panels to see if the wiring has been tampered with.
No, I don't find it odd. All the critical controls are in basically the same place in every car. Steering wheel, pedals, turn signals, etc. The rest I can figure out as needed. No need to study in advance.
Do you literally crawl under the steering wheel of a car before you drive it? Why?
I found identical looking devices by using Google Lens and focusing on just the black box with the green button.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/never-buy-car-alar...
https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisit/comments/rnr48t/found_unde...
https://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comments/7m9dv9/mysterious_b...