Tell HN: I’m a wannabe developer, who works as a construction worker
48 comments
I started my career working in paint stores and worked my way up to home renovations before I finally got into tech, and today I am an engineering manager for a large enterprise company focused on health care.
Lean into the skills you learn outside of tech. I constantly find that I have unique perspectives on problems and outcomes, which I attribute to a decade working outside of development.
Also, don’t downplay what you’re doing now. When you’re interviewing be honest and transparent. Let them know that you find value in what you’re doing now and that it has let you grow as a person. You know how to dig in and work through difficult and unpleasant realities, you are not afraid to get your hands dirty.
Sometimes it feels like people expect that if you don’t come right out of high school into tech you will never make it, but it isn’t as difficult as you may think. Find a smaller local consultancy and apply as a jr dev, someone will give you a chance.
Lean into the skills you learn outside of tech. I constantly find that I have unique perspectives on problems and outcomes, which I attribute to a decade working outside of development.
Also, don’t downplay what you’re doing now. When you’re interviewing be honest and transparent. Let them know that you find value in what you’re doing now and that it has let you grow as a person. You know how to dig in and work through difficult and unpleasant realities, you are not afraid to get your hands dirty.
Sometimes it feels like people expect that if you don’t come right out of high school into tech you will never make it, but it isn’t as difficult as you may think. Find a smaller local consultancy and apply as a jr dev, someone will give you a chance.
You should always came upfront and tell them that you have an issue with oral communication. I'm 46 and all my life I struggled because whenever things got oral I have a rush of adrenaline that renders me almost powerless. It helped a lot if I tell them 1st about my issue, they will adapt/understood your issues.
What this might look like: the interviewer starts the call and says “good morning, how are you?”. OP answers with “Nervous! I’m not great at talking over the phone instead of in person.”
There have been a few times when, post interviews, I’ve been on the hiring panel and someone said “I don’t know if they were just nervous or what…”. Just be totally upfront about it, especially for a junior position.
There have been a few times when, post interviews, I’ve been on the hiring panel and someone said “I don’t know if they were just nervous or what…”. Just be totally upfront about it, especially for a junior position.
A couple of notes from my own history...
When you are expert on a topic, try to convey your comfort with the topic by entertaining questions from others. This is the most honest form of bragging. Some people say "learn how to sell yourself" but I think this is more nuanced.
Start learning SQL. Don't be afraid. Don't wait. It's a seed worth planting early.
Be kind, but also be firm. When someone is in a role that demands way more than their skill/experience, it is crippling. You have to speak up. It is worth learning how to be kind as well as diplomatic when you make your case.
The developers that are hard to replace are the ones who leave a build systems anyone can use/maintain. Cryptic codebases rarely hide a bunch of value; more like a bunch of bugs.
When you are expert on a topic, try to convey your comfort with the topic by entertaining questions from others. This is the most honest form of bragging. Some people say "learn how to sell yourself" but I think this is more nuanced.
Start learning SQL. Don't be afraid. Don't wait. It's a seed worth planting early.
Be kind, but also be firm. When someone is in a role that demands way more than their skill/experience, it is crippling. You have to speak up. It is worth learning how to be kind as well as diplomatic when you make your case.
The developers that are hard to replace are the ones who leave a build systems anyone can use/maintain. Cryptic codebases rarely hide a bunch of value; more like a bunch of bugs.
You're still young. Try to get yourself somewhere closer to a tech job than construction. I had a lot of quiet times working as a hardware technician in past and other IT (sys-admin) jobs, while working on software projects and learning more about software in my spare time.
Of course, it is not so suitable if you are traveling a lot, but the general advice here is not to work so far away from a tech position, when you're quite passionate about software & tech. Communication and interviewing skills are something you can learn, don't let that hold you back from actual interviews, keep interviewing for jobs that you want; you'll get better at it.
Of course, it is not so suitable if you are traveling a lot, but the general advice here is not to work so far away from a tech position, when you're quite passionate about software & tech. Communication and interviewing skills are something you can learn, don't let that hold you back from actual interviews, keep interviewing for jobs that you want; you'll get better at it.
1. Don't look to game dev. Anywhere you read it's a nightmare job.
2. Pick up a Udemy course and work it all the way to the end.
3. Find something you'd like to see, and build it. (A small timer for your run? A simple app that helps you track your Diet. An app that you can use as a todo list.). Something very simple.
4. (very important) Finish that app, or get it to a state that you feel it's good.
5. Start looking for work.
My best suggestion to new devs, find something you want to build and build it. You will learn so much doing this, and it costs you nothing but time.
2. Pick up a Udemy course and work it all the way to the end.
3. Find something you'd like to see, and build it. (A small timer for your run? A simple app that helps you track your Diet. An app that you can use as a todo list.). Something very simple.
4. (very important) Finish that app, or get it to a state that you feel it's good.
5. Start looking for work.
My best suggestion to new devs, find something you want to build and build it. You will learn so much doing this, and it costs you nothing but time.
Hey, just read through this thread, I'd love to see your GitHub info, you sound like your might have the skills a client of ours is looking for. Contact info in my profile. Hope to chat soon!
Just emailed you, thanks.
It's not even worth applying without a degree. If you're lucky they will interview you and waste your time and not hire you. Good luck as a construction worker. Your best shot is to learn to be a foreman and work your way up as a construction worker. Or learn to be a machine operator so you can break your back less. Nobody will ever hire you to do software. The interview process will just waste your time. They will use you to fill a checkbox and say "we interviewed several candidates and chose the best one", without a degree you are always the low tier last choice. Not many people can develop software and get paid to do it. It's easier to be successful as a manager. All the big names in software and industry are business managers, not software developers.
Maybe g_the_oracle is a at a place in the world where this is true, but in my experience, working in the US and in Europe, this is total nonsense.
Software and systems engineering are in my experience the most meritocratic niches in IT, and probably IT itself in general as well. If you have the skills, you'll get the chance to do it.
Good luck and don't let nonsense like this get in your head. If I'd believed messages like this back when I was trying to get a foothold, I would not be where I am today.
Software and systems engineering are in my experience the most meritocratic niches in IT, and probably IT itself in general as well. If you have the skills, you'll get the chance to do it.
Good luck and don't let nonsense like this get in your head. If I'd believed messages like this back when I was trying to get a foothold, I would not be where I am today.
>without a degree you are always the low tier last choice. Not many people can develop software and get paid to do it.
wow that is not true there bud.
i was a software engineer and went to construction because i burned out. but i never had a degree in comp sci and i got jobs rather easily.
wow that is not true there bud.
i was a software engineer and went to construction because i burned out. but i never had a degree in comp sci and i got jobs rather easily.
The above post is simply not correct. I got into Microsoft without either a résumé or a degree.
This is bad advice, and I hope OP ignores it.
Having a degree when you're looking for your first SW role almost certainly will improve your chances.
Not having a degree won't help, particularly when you have no professional experience, but it's not the end of the world.
Having a degree when you're looking for your first SW role almost certainly will improve your chances.
Not having a degree won't help, particularly when you have no professional experience, but it's not the end of the world.
I don’t think this is the _best_ advice but it may be a good starting point for you: do you have a LinkedIn/online portfolio or attend code meetups (virtual or in person)?
Yea all of them
I even have a GitHub repo with over 350 stars (MERN stack)…
Edit: not under this username
But not in person meetups
I even have a GitHub repo with over 350 stars (MERN stack)…
Edit: not under this username
But not in person meetups
If you don't want people to link you to your github/normal account, you should probably delete this if still possible...I assume you are the user on github who has a math problem in their username which totals to slightly more than 400?
Regarding your communication issues, I would encourage you to go to meetups or similar and just talk to people. There are a ton of non-native English speakers in the tech world with a range of language skills - it won't be a problem unless you only have extremely basic english (which it seems like you don't, unless you're putting a ton of time into your messages).
Regarding your communication issues, I would encourage you to go to meetups or similar and just talk to people. There are a ton of non-native English speakers in the tech world with a range of language skills - it won't be a problem unless you only have extremely basic english (which it seems like you don't, unless you're putting a ton of time into your messages).
My communication issue spikes up at oral mode only
Idk if its because of my shyness/anxiety/…
Idk if its because of my shyness/anxiety/…
Right - that's why I think just doing "immersion therapy", where you have the opportunity to talk to a bunch of people about tech things would help. You clearly have the skills in you based on how you write, you just need to unlock them orally through some practice. You could also just go out and talk to strangers or whoever, but it would probably be most beneficial to do tech-talking, since there is a lot of unique lingo involved.
I got my first dev job via a recommendation from a random local Craigslist QA position I worked for a bit. Seems like you have the right mindset - keep improving your dev skills and be open to any (reasonable) opportunities (even if they’re not exactly what you want they may help guide you to what you do).
Good luck to you
Edit: what geo location are you in OP for clarity?
Edit: what geo location are you in OP for clarity?
Toronto, ON
And good luck to you too!
And good luck to you too!
I don't know if this is true universally but all the job listings I've seen in my country only consider remote work if you've already got a few years of experience.
If your financial situation allows it, it may be worth moving out for a few years to get in person experience, then go for the remote job after that.
Additionally, you will need to be a clear and friendly communicator even as a junior dev but especially if you plan to work remotely. Because you mentioned this is a weakness, I would strongly recommend working on that.
Ultimately it depends on your situation though, so take everything I said with a shake of salt.
If your financial situation allows it, it may be worth moving out for a few years to get in person experience, then go for the remote job after that.
Additionally, you will need to be a clear and friendly communicator even as a junior dev but especially if you plan to work remotely. Because you mentioned this is a weakness, I would strongly recommend working on that.
Ultimately it depends on your situation though, so take everything I said with a shake of salt.
Difficult communicating orally isn't going to hurt you that bad if you are legitimately looking for junior/entry level positions. Do you have a portfolio of sample projects you've worked on to share with potential employers?
Contributions to open source projects and building concept apps can be a great way to develop your resume and portfolio before you successfully break in.
Just remember that hope isn't lost and everyone moves at their own pace. I was a labourer until my mid-20s and dropped out of school in year 9, struggling with autism, adhd, anxiety and a speech impediment. I tanked every interview regardless of the industry or position. Once I'd built a stronger portfolio, I found that calling out my poor communication skills at the start of an interview bought me a lot of leeway.
Contributions to open source projects and building concept apps can be a great way to develop your resume and portfolio before you successfully break in.
Just remember that hope isn't lost and everyone moves at their own pace. I was a labourer until my mid-20s and dropped out of school in year 9, struggling with autism, adhd, anxiety and a speech impediment. I tanked every interview regardless of the industry or position. Once I'd built a stronger portfolio, I found that calling out my poor communication skills at the start of an interview bought me a lot of leeway.
Yes I have a portfolio and also a GitHub repo with over 350 stars…
Which is an excellent additional point. Start trying to help open source projects. There’s a huge ecosystem of projects needing all kinds of help at every level of technical and programming experience from just above none to mythical 10x gurus.
By pitching in with an existing project you can legitimately help them and simultaneously be much more employable since it shows you can work in a team and work on that kind of software, the extra bonus is that by helping a larger project prospective employers are more likely to have heard of the project your contributing to.
Edit: This is more of a general advice to novices take. Since you’re clearly already doing this sort of reputation building work.
By pitching in with an existing project you can legitimately help them and simultaneously be much more employable since it shows you can work in a team and work on that kind of software, the extra bonus is that by helping a larger project prospective employers are more likely to have heard of the project your contributing to.
Edit: This is more of a general advice to novices take. Since you’re clearly already doing this sort of reputation building work.
I once met an engineer who didn't even need to submit his CV to get the position he had at the time.
The company had a quick look at his GitHub profile, then hired him based on that.
The company had a quick look at his GitHub profile, then hired him based on that.
That is impressive. You probably have the coding skills you need, its just a matter of breaking through somewhere. Keep trying to find remote coding jobs. Knock out a ton of leetcode puzzles -- those are common gatekeeping process.
In which language(s) do you program? Do you have some projects to show? A GitHub account? Fiverr?
How much % are you geting from the construction and how much % from Craiglist?
How much % are you geting from the construction and how much % from Craiglist?
%100 from construction (but its part time)
And yes I do have an GitHub account but wanted to be anonymous
I can send it directly if you want
And yes I do have an GitHub account but wanted to be anonymous
I can send it directly if you want
Are you a non-native English speaker or do you speak a variety of English other than American English?
I noticed your use of Unicode apostrophes (’), capitalization of "Junior", "to be applied"/"get applied", "a instant", and "through this way", which all sound non-native or not like U.S. English to me. (The apostrophe would be normal in a world processor document but I don't think a U.S. English keyboard layout usually produces it when typing in a form with a web browser.)
I'm wondering about that because I wonder whether it affects either your own or others' perception of your communication when applying for work with Americans.
I noticed your use of Unicode apostrophes (’), capitalization of "Junior", "to be applied"/"get applied", "a instant", and "through this way", which all sound non-native or not like U.S. English to me. (The apostrophe would be normal in a world processor document but I don't think a U.S. English keyboard layout usually produces it when typing in a form with a web browser.)
I'm wondering about that because I wonder whether it affects either your own or others' perception of your communication when applying for work with Americans.
I’m half Canadian half X but speak mostly in X
So that weakens my oral communication…
Nice ;)
So that weakens my oral communication…
Nice ;)
I don't know how much of a practical obstacle your language skills are for communication -- I'm guessing it's not actually a significant problem -- but you might want to work on your spoken and written English in case that affects other people's perceptions of you or your own confidence (like during those oral interviews).
I think someone else's suggestion in this thread of finding non-work opportunities to talk about technology in English could be very helpful. Or even just trying to find some more people to socialize with in English sometimes.
I think someone else's suggestion in this thread of finding non-work opportunities to talk about technology in English could be very helpful. Or even just trying to find some more people to socialize with in English sometimes.
Look at the community of X (Russian isn’t it?) in Canada, perhaps get in touch with few established devs there via linkedin.
I find remote work doesn’t require much oral comms really, so it’s just about getting thru interview.
I find remote work doesn’t require much oral comms really, so it’s just about getting thru interview.
> X (Russian isn’t it?)
How did you deduce X is Russian?
How did you deduce X is Russian?
it's in the name zenia is a form of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jevgenija commonly used around Russia
+ construction work
+ some language style signs
p.s. wonder if Russian is also frowned upon nowadays in west. It's pretty much taboo here in Eastern Europe.
+ construction work
+ some language style signs
p.s. wonder if Russian is also frowned upon nowadays in west. It's pretty much taboo here in Eastern Europe.
> It's pretty much taboo here in Eastern Europe
This is really interesting, which Eastern European countries is this if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Ukrainian who grew up speaking Russian because that's what was used in schools, and speak Russian regularly with other Ukrainians and others from Eastern Europe now (in a Nordic country). Now that Ukrainian refugees have been arriving, I hear many of them speaking Russian on public transport. Even those speaking Ukrainian still appreciate a Russian speaker approaching them to help if they look lost looking for their connection.
With so many Ukrainians having grown up speaking Russian due largely to the suppression of Ukrainian throughout history, but still with a fully Ukrainian identity, stigmatizing the language they speak seems like it'll just make their lives even harder. I am honestly surprised if this is the case, especially in Eastern Europe where people are very aware first hand of the pervasiveness of Russian regardless of the speaker's nationality or identity.
This is really interesting, which Eastern European countries is this if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Ukrainian who grew up speaking Russian because that's what was used in schools, and speak Russian regularly with other Ukrainians and others from Eastern Europe now (in a Nordic country). Now that Ukrainian refugees have been arriving, I hear many of them speaking Russian on public transport. Even those speaking Ukrainian still appreciate a Russian speaker approaching them to help if they look lost looking for their connection.
With so many Ukrainians having grown up speaking Russian due largely to the suppression of Ukrainian throughout history, but still with a fully Ukrainian identity, stigmatizing the language they speak seems like it'll just make their lives even harder. I am honestly surprised if this is the case, especially in Eastern Europe where people are very aware first hand of the pervasiveness of Russian regardless of the speaker's nationality or identity.
That's what I heard from some Ukrainians and locals in Lithuania. Some Russian speakers even getting some services refused.
My partner is helping a family who recently started looking for housing - the phone hangs up immediately after hearing Russian. There could be many reasons - people not wanting to deal with migrants, mixing up Ukrainian with Russian language or plainly not knowing either language. Most post-Soviet kids can't even tell the difference between two, let alone understand it.
My partner is helping a family who recently started looking for housing - the phone hangs up immediately after hearing Russian. There could be many reasons - people not wanting to deal with migrants, mixing up Ukrainian with Russian language or plainly not knowing either language. Most post-Soviet kids can't even tell the difference between two, let alone understand it.
> here in Eastern Europe.
Heuristics can be wrong.
For example, your profile says "Auckland", but you seem to be in Eastern Europe which is almost as far away as one can get from New Zealand.
(So far away, that I believe there are no nonstop flights between New Zealand and Europe because planes can't fly that distance non-stop with a full load of passengers and luggage.)
Heuristics can be wrong.
For example, your profile says "Auckland", but you seem to be in Eastern Europe which is almost as far away as one can get from New Zealand.
(So far away, that I believe there are no nonstop flights between New Zealand and Europe because planes can't fly that distance non-stop with a full load of passengers and luggage.)
> So far away, that I believe there are no nonstop flights between New Zealand and Europe because planes can't fly that distance non-stop with a full load of passengers and luggage
I did some research few years ago when flights Sydney <> London were under consideration. There's def planes that can do Auckland <> Helsinki, Warsaw, Istanbul (decent hub) and maybe even Copenhagen. Trouble is for whatever reason airlines think they first need to serve UK first!
Personally, I'm having some time off from NZ until housing market normalises (lol).
I did some research few years ago when flights Sydney <> London were under consideration. There's def planes that can do Auckland <> Helsinki, Warsaw, Istanbul (decent hub) and maybe even Copenhagen. Trouble is for whatever reason airlines think they first need to serve UK first!
Personally, I'm having some time off from NZ until housing market normalises (lol).
Tho the fact that your reasoning wasn’t correct, the username was computer generated ;)
I just don’t want to give much info about myself…
I just don’t want to give much info about myself…
What about doing dev work on AirTasker or whatever the equivalent is? Wouldn't be a permanent gig, but might allow you to supplement your income and gain confidence.
Do not develop if you cannot communicate. These skills directly depend upon another. If you can still manage to get the position, go get the money - either be very disciplined or quit soon, no inbetween.
find local companies who speaks the languages you are fluent in, babystep your way into getting conversational in english.
you can code, you can comprehend documentations, just need more exposure in talking in english.
you can code, you can comprehend documentations, just need more exposure in talking in english.
Find a local community college or career center and go after work to do practice interviews until you don't feel quite as anxious. Then apply for as many jobs per day as you can muster (I know, it's annoying and demoralizing).
The way out of the current situation is to apply for jobs. The more you do the faster you'll be out.
Try to remember interviews aren't a reflection on your character or anything like that. They're just one off conversations, usually with people who aren't even good at interviewing in the first place.
The way out of the current situation is to apply for jobs. The more you do the faster you'll be out.
Try to remember interviews aren't a reflection on your character or anything like that. They're just one off conversations, usually with people who aren't even good at interviewing in the first place.
Try getting a job as a tester or tech support 1st. Once you are established at a company you want to work in then you work your way toward the software development area. Once a company(managers) understand and know your work ethic they will be more likely to take a chance on you.
Get a white collar job. Even if it’s just in the trailer at the construction site. Moving to the other side of the fence will get you connections.
Not necessarily an easy thing to do. But something to work toward.
Not necessarily an easy thing to do. But something to work toward.
This.
Get into the office where you will be eligible for IT-related tasks instead of swinging a hammer.
Get into the office where you will be eligible for IT-related tasks instead of swinging a hammer.
FYI many large companies have apprenticeship type programs for non traditional candidates. As an example https://amazontechnicalacademy.com/ is a direct path to entry level SDE work. As I recall it’s a full time program that includes a reasonable stipend while you’re active.
Edit: I think the training is all virtual/vtc these days. On completion some job offers may require relocation, but there are many full and par time remote positions globally.
Edit: I think the training is all virtual/vtc these days. On completion some job offers may require relocation, but there are many full and par time remote positions globally.
Do you know any companies that do this besides Amazon?
I’m mostly looking for a remote position and I have a relatively strong (Junior) background in programming but can’t communicate orally properly, especially at interviews, especially behind the phone…
Because of the fact that we travel a lot with my family (and I’m required to be with them) I can’t find a job at Walmart/Costco/… cuz they all take time to be applied and the moment I get applied we have to move…
So I went on Kijiji/Craigslist and similar websites to find a instant cash job.
TL;DR: I (a wannabe dev) ended up working as a construction worker (no experience, instant, cash job).
I got my iPhone, MacBook and some other accessories through this way (cuz I’m an Apple obsessed user).
Tired of this much work, my body hurts ;)
Any advice??
Edit: I wanted to ask anonymously, this isn’t my true username.