Is There an HN for Women?
75 comments
Elpha is a discussion community
for women in tech.
It was started by a female YC employee and she then left YC employment to run it full time, with YC funding it as part of their summer 2019 batch.
https://elpha.com
It was started by a female YC employee and she then left YC employment to run it full time, with YC funding it as part of their summer 2019 batch.
https://elpha.com
How would an "HN for women" be different from this one?
Maybe different news. Definitely different vibes. The reaction here are all very uncomfortable again for manifold reasons. It's really no surprise this question was asked.
Non-minority here. IMHO, the question is valid and should not be flagged. It’s ok to look for/ask about a version of it where a particular demographic feels more represented/included. That does not invalidate the site or the people who don’t belong to such groups, and having the question flagged so fast only raises suspicions over the alleged neutrality of the site regarding gender, etc.
I'm of the general opinion that people should be free to make their own sub-communities, and even within reason restrict access to others. Say women in tech want a male-free space? Well fine.
The issue is, what then about "white men in tech"? Do they get to have a group to themselves, to discuss issues from, dunno, "dealing with tech Feminazis", or whatever white men in tech struggle with? What about white supremacists in tech? Elite SEs against influx of cheap junior labour?
I'm personally not a member of any such "selective" groups and for these reasons feel a bit ambivalent about them.
But as i say, go ahead as far as I'm concerned...
The issue is, what then about "white men in tech"? Do they get to have a group to themselves, to discuss issues from, dunno, "dealing with tech Feminazis", or whatever white men in tech struggle with? What about white supremacists in tech? Elite SEs against influx of cheap junior labour?
I'm personally not a member of any such "selective" groups and for these reasons feel a bit ambivalent about them.
But as i say, go ahead as far as I'm concerned...
> Say women in tech want a male-free space? Well fine.
> The issue is, what then about "white men in tech"? Do they get to have a group to themselves, to discuss issues from [...]
An interesting observation that white men having their own space is an "issue" whereas any other collective is not an issue.
> The issue is, what then about "white men in tech"? Do they get to have a group to themselves, to discuss issues from [...]
An interesting observation that white men having their own space is an "issue" whereas any other collective is not an issue.
As i say, neither bothers me too much. But I'd imagine various groups that want their own space would not like their complement making a space just for themselves, and not letting them in.
GP's reasoning is by modus tollens.
Concerning this topic I commonly see the logic:
If P, then Q. Not Q. But still, P.
If P, then Q. Not Q. But still, P.
Is HN not for women? I think it's for everyone.
"Is there an HN for ***" would create uncountable subcultures and divisions which are definitely not needed.
Whatever you might be interested in discussing or reading here, I as a male might be interested in too.
Whatever you might be interested in discussing or reading here, I as a male might be interested in too.
People ask for "HN for **" all the time here, no one has a problem with it. There's one such thread making the rounds right now. Most HNers want this place to be for tech only and feel the quality of discourse is degraded by the introduction of non-technical issues. They're incorrect, but the trend to want "HN but for x" is common.
As far as wanting a platform for women specifically, that also seems understandable given how hostile the community here can be towards women and subjects that involve womens' issues. Just see some of the other responses here, or anything approaching certain social or "political" topics which some people, women in particular, might find relevant.
As far as wanting a platform for women specifically, that also seems understandable given how hostile the community here can be towards women and subjects that involve womens' issues. Just see some of the other responses here, or anything approaching certain social or "political" topics which some people, women in particular, might find relevant.
While I understand the needs, I still don't agree with the request.
>> that also seems understandable given how hostile the community here can be towards women and subjects that involve) womens' issues
Someone might also propose "HN for Crypto so we don't get bashed in every thread" or "HN for Tesla fanboys so we can talk without getting hate".
I would on the other hand appreciate more widely targeted articles on HN, instead of dozens of "Here's the latest new language" threads.
>> that also seems understandable given how hostile the community here can be towards women and subjects that involve) womens' issues
Someone might also propose "HN for Crypto so we don't get bashed in every thread" or "HN for Tesla fanboys so we can talk without getting hate".
I would on the other hand appreciate more widely targeted articles on HN, instead of dozens of "Here's the latest new language" threads.
I'm sure HN for crypto has been proposed many times, if it doesn't actually exist somewhere.
All of crypto is basically HN for crypto. HN's biggest historical influence is VC culture (heck, look at the domain name) and crypto mostly runs on VC money (especially a16z). HN's disregard for crypto despite of this is probably one of its most redeeming traits.
Why does there need to be? HN is for anyone, no?
HN is decidedly not "for anyone". It's an outgrowth of US tech VC culture and it has significant biases inherited from that (specifically a tech (right-)libertarian political leaning and an overrepresentation of white and Asian men from wealthy backgrounds).
It's literally the Paradox of Tolerance at play. Contrast Twitter with its "free speech alternatives" and then consider that Twitter is actually historically intentionally hands-off when it comes to content moderation.
I agree that an "HN for women" likely wouldn't solve any of these problems as by that description alone it sounds like the "girlboss feminism" equivalent and would likely inherit many of its problems. But I would also argue that if you try to distill the problematic aspects out of HN it ceases to be HN and you should really just ask about more inclusive tech news communities rather than a pinker version of the orange site.
It's literally the Paradox of Tolerance at play. Contrast Twitter with its "free speech alternatives" and then consider that Twitter is actually historically intentionally hands-off when it comes to content moderation.
I agree that an "HN for women" likely wouldn't solve any of these problems as by that description alone it sounds like the "girlboss feminism" equivalent and would likely inherit many of its problems. But I would also argue that if you try to distill the problematic aspects out of HN it ceases to be HN and you should really just ask about more inclusive tech news communities rather than a pinker version of the orange site.
Twitter is hands-off when it comes to content moderation? What?
Not even people on Twitter believe that, according to a poll that Elon Musk ran.
Not even people on Twitter believe that, according to a poll that Elon Musk ran.
>specifically a tech (right-)libertarian political leaning
What part of HN have I missed over the last ~decade and a half?
I could be with you on the "libertarian" aspect ... but "right-libertarian leaning"
No way - this site leans notably left (albeit often with a libertarian twist)
What part of HN have I missed over the last ~decade and a half?
I could be with you on the "libertarian" aspect ... but "right-libertarian leaning"
No way - this site leans notably left (albeit often with a libertarian twist)
You're conflating "right" with "far-right". American libertarianism is moderately right-wing. Left-wing libertarians are anarchists, not against "rules" but against power hierarchies (freedom from oppression). Right-wing "libertarians" are laissez-faire capitalists (freedom from interference).
I realize that the prevalence of religious fundamentalist opinions in US politics skews the perception of what "left" and "right" mean but NOT being a theocrat or NOT actively wanting a white ethnostate doesn't make anyone "left-wing".
I realize that the prevalence of religious fundamentalist opinions in US politics skews the perception of what "left" and "right" mean but NOT being a theocrat or NOT actively wanting a white ethnostate doesn't make anyone "left-wing".
what aspects of hn are problematic?
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You could try Ovarit, it's one of the few exclusively women-centered forums out there. They have a STEM sub-forum if you're looking for tech topics in particular.
Ovarit is a website run by former moderators of r/GenderCritical, a now-banned subreddit for "gender critical" people and TERFs.
Indeed it is. Women sticking up for women, without a bunch of power-tripping men telling them what to do.
Yes, here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/news
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The fact that this question was instantly flagged off the front page says a lot about the HN readership in and of itself. OP, I'm not aware of such a site, but I'm sure many people would appreciate a place like that.
Thank you. Given some of the responses ( and direct accusations of "toxic genderbaiting", wanting to "split HN", etc. ) I will not comment or participate at all, simply afraid.
I regret having asked now.
I regret having asked now.
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It's probably being flagged because it's toxic genderbaiting in a place that has a healthy disregard for gender in the first place.
Male here. I dont think this should be flagged. It’s a question like any other, i dont see genderbaiting in it. Are, indeed, any sites or tech communities out there dominated by females as are there dominated by males? If not, why? As a former hiring manager i have seen a very very low number of female applicants. Why? This debate doesnt necessarily need to imply a conspiracy or toxic -isms. It is a genuine question we should be debating not flagging.
"The low number of female applicants in tech" is something completely different to the current topic.
The current topic is about having a separate HN with the majority of the community just being women.
The current topic is about having a separate HN with the majority of the community just being women.
I didnt read it that way, but if that was the topic what would have been wrong with it?
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As a hiring manager, the only person who could've answered why would have been you.
Yeah but answers like “thats what landed in my inbox” dont paint the whole picture do they now?
What about this straightforward question is "toxic genderbaiting"?
Asking "is there an HN for women" is like asking "is there a Github for lesbians". It's implying women aren't welcome. On a website where if you don't explicitly say it yourself, nobody will ever know if you're a man or a woman.
I am seriously confused. Whats wrong with asking if there is a lesbian github? Also I doubt asking wether there’s a HN for males with bbq bellies who want to talk space travel would get flagged as fast as this post. But i am sure the question you fantasised will.
Being welcome, doesn't automatically make something a good place.
People have different requirements, and this person seems to not find their requirements fulfilled here. No need to take this personal.
People have different requirements, and this person seems to not find their requirements fulfilled here. No need to take this personal.
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Related:
Poll: My gender is... (2008) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126938
Poll: Male or female? (2009) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=591309
Poll: Male or female or other (2013) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5520342
Poll: My gender is... (2008) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126938
Poll: Male or female? (2009) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=591309
Poll: Male or female or other (2013) — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5520342
Is it still possible to publish polls on HN?
I have never thought about the gender of a single user on this site, ever.
I have almost never thought about the gender of a single user on this site either. That's because I assume they're a white guy like me until indicated otherwise. That's because most of the people I see in most tech spaces are white guys like me, so I'm probably right (and when I'm not it's usually because they're a Asian rather than white).
That's what it's like to be the default character model. That's not what it's like not being that.
Heck, for the longest time as a white guy in tech I thought simply treating people who aren't white guys as if they were was good enough. That only changed when I listened to a woman talk about her experience of being on the receiving end of that, with her colleagues being so comfortable treating her as "one of the boys" that they'd openly be misogynist about other women in her presence ("but you're not like them of course").
Not being the default character model sucks. Having a community with a default character model closer to your own is an improvement. Of course even better still would be not having any single default character model but "pink HN" might still be better than nothing.
That's what it's like to be the default character model. That's not what it's like not being that.
Heck, for the longest time as a white guy in tech I thought simply treating people who aren't white guys as if they were was good enough. That only changed when I listened to a woman talk about her experience of being on the receiving end of that, with her colleagues being so comfortable treating her as "one of the boys" that they'd openly be misogynist about other women in her presence ("but you're not like them of course").
Not being the default character model sucks. Having a community with a default character model closer to your own is an improvement. Of course even better still would be not having any single default character model but "pink HN" might still be better than nothing.
The problem is that you're suggestion division, discrimination and segregation of the community based on assumptions and your own world view, to perhaps solve a problem that doesn't even exist?
Do most women feel the same way you do? Because it's their opinion that matters here. Do they feel HN is toxic? Can it be solved on the current HN? Does it REALLY need a separate website with a divided community? Would we also need a separate HN for transgenders and other minorities currently existing in the tech space?
It's an extreme solution that only fosters more discrimination in my opinion. I don't think the question merits the whole thing being flagged, but I definitely don't agree with the idea.
Do most women feel the same way you do? Because it's their opinion that matters here. Do they feel HN is toxic? Can it be solved on the current HN? Does it REALLY need a separate website with a divided community? Would we also need a separate HN for transgenders and other minorities currently existing in the tech space?
It's an extreme solution that only fosters more discrimination in my opinion. I don't think the question merits the whole thing being flagged, but I definitely don't agree with the idea.
I made a comment asking "Is HN not for women? I think it's for everyone." a couple hours ago. It got +7 karma since. And yet, it's now not shown (it's folded) by default. It never happened to be before on HN. Can someone explain what feature is this?
BTW I see that it happened to majority of comments. What the heck is going on here?
BTW I see that it happened to majority of comments. What the heck is going on here?
I am curious as well.
If women feel HN is not currently for them, the questions would be: why not and what can we do to remedy that? Percentage of contributors is a problematic benchmark here, because the industry as a whole has a very depressing gender split. If you're put off by the conservatism often on display here, the solution is not to leave and look elsewhere - the solution would be more engagement and show of presence.
Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere where they don't have to fight an uphill battle against an entrenched gender bias (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549264)?
Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change. HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change, quite the opposite actually. If how HN is is what's keeping women out, all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.
Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change. HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change, quite the opposite actually. If how HN is is what's keeping women out, all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.
Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women.
It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50.
But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Because that would be a poll with merit. "Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change" -> What change has even been suggested?
You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50.
But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Because that would be a poll with merit. "Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change" -> What change has even been suggested?
You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
> It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever.
It's been like this forever, for very small values of "forever". Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Not to mention needing the men in other professions because we were coming off the tail end of two world wars (and the US was sending its young men to the meat grinder of Vietnam).
That said, this is also very much a cultural phenomenon rather than a global one. Percentages look very different in other countries than the US and Europe. But this is tangential because I'm not talking about HN needing a "50/50 split" and you're claiming HN merely has parity with the industry overall:
> You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
Did you look at the polls that were linked?
2008: 17.5%
2009: 0.54%
2013: 0.57%
That 2008 number is somewhat similar to a random number I could find about SV in particular but still well below the 25%-ish figures I'm seeing for tech overall in most other statistics. And that figure came from a poll with an order of magnitude fewer participants. The other two aren't "zero women" but they're a rounding error away from that.
> But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome?
Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem.
If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
It's been like this forever, for very small values of "forever". Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Not to mention needing the men in other professions because we were coming off the tail end of two world wars (and the US was sending its young men to the meat grinder of Vietnam).
That said, this is also very much a cultural phenomenon rather than a global one. Percentages look very different in other countries than the US and Europe. But this is tangential because I'm not talking about HN needing a "50/50 split" and you're claiming HN merely has parity with the industry overall:
> You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
Did you look at the polls that were linked?
2008: 17.5%
2009: 0.54%
2013: 0.57%
That 2008 number is somewhat similar to a random number I could find about SV in particular but still well below the 25%-ish figures I'm seeing for tech overall in most other statistics. And that figure came from a poll with an order of magnitude fewer participants. The other two aren't "zero women" but they're a rounding error away from that.
> But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome?
Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem.
If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
>Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager.
Yes, it was a hyperbole. The point is that it stopped being a "female career path" at some point, and wasn't for a long time, thus there's many more men in the industry and that will take many generations to offset.
>Did you look at the polls that were linked?
Yes, the polls show that there aren't many women here, but you cannot infer the reason for that from the polls. You're being biased or omitting the information that led you to this conclusion.
>Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem.
Because we're having a discussion here right now and if you know that information, it's helpful for everyone if you shared. A debate is not about winning or losing, but for everyone to learn and improve from them.
>If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
This is wrong. Things can still change for the better despite the lack of a problem.
The lack of women is concerning, depending on the -reason- why they're not here. I still don't see any clear reasoning that HN's culture is the problem, and I'm not just going to blindly agree.
Yes, it was a hyperbole. The point is that it stopped being a "female career path" at some point, and wasn't for a long time, thus there's many more men in the industry and that will take many generations to offset.
>Did you look at the polls that were linked?
Yes, the polls show that there aren't many women here, but you cannot infer the reason for that from the polls. You're being biased or omitting the information that led you to this conclusion.
>Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem.
Because we're having a discussion here right now and if you know that information, it's helpful for everyone if you shared. A debate is not about winning or losing, but for everyone to learn and improve from them.
>If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
This is wrong. Things can still change for the better despite the lack of a problem.
The lack of women is concerning, depending on the -reason- why they're not here. I still don't see any clear reasoning that HN's culture is the problem, and I'm not just going to blindly agree.
>Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women.
The best way to improve "inclusivity" is by not worrying about "inclusivity"
Let people do what they want
>It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50.
Why would a 50/50 split even be desirable? Should there be a 50/50 split in every industry? Why (or why not)? How would that be enforced?
The best way to improve "inclusivity" is by not worrying about "inclusivity"
Let people do what they want
>It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50.
Why would a 50/50 split even be desirable? Should there be a 50/50 split in every industry? Why (or why not)? How would that be enforced?
I agree with your post. It was just a sort of hypothetical because "entrenched gender bias" was mentioned by my comment's parent.
>If how HN is is what's keeping women out
How is HN keeping women out?
Every comment I've seen in the decade I've been on HN dismissing a woman solely because of the gender has been either downvoted to oblivion, flagged, or even deleted by the mod team.
How is HN keeping women out?
Every comment I've seen in the decade I've been on HN dismissing a woman solely because of the gender has been either downvoted to oblivion, flagged, or even deleted by the mod team.
> Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere
I didn't say that they should do all of the work. But going elsewhere would diminish everybody's experience. Segregation is always the worse option. If the problem is that we're missing a specific perspective, the solution in a vibrant community cannot be to just accept that and let things calcify.
> HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change
HN is not a monolith, this is unnecessarily reductive. Since this is a collaborative effort, it's a bad idea to drive progressive people out and cede the ground to conservatives.
> all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.
How on Earth does this reflect what I said?
I didn't say that they should do all of the work. But going elsewhere would diminish everybody's experience. Segregation is always the worse option. If the problem is that we're missing a specific perspective, the solution in a vibrant community cannot be to just accept that and let things calcify.
> HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change
HN is not a monolith, this is unnecessarily reductive. Since this is a collaborative effort, it's a bad idea to drive progressive people out and cede the ground to conservatives.
> all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.
How on Earth does this reflect what I said?
I personally don't think gender segregation should have a place in tech discussions, or any discussion in general, as long as conversation is held in good faith and in a respectful manner.
However for the people that do want it, I think that they need to look further than HN. By its centralized nature HN will guarantee that the over represented voices will drown everyone else.
The only way I see this kind of an effort gathering steam is by using one of the discussion platforms coming from the ActivityPub community as a starting point, but unfortunately that brings all the problems of building a community from scratch to the surface. Even if the community would be connected to the greater mass of the fediverse, it would still require a lot of effort to gather mind share. :(
But I would still be interested in seeing such an effort take root. (And to toot my own horn, I do happen to have a project that can be used for this purpose; details in my bio, anyone feel free to reach out.)
However for the people that do want it, I think that they need to look further than HN. By its centralized nature HN will guarantee that the over represented voices will drown everyone else.
The only way I see this kind of an effort gathering steam is by using one of the discussion platforms coming from the ActivityPub community as a starting point, but unfortunately that brings all the problems of building a community from scratch to the surface. Even if the community would be connected to the greater mass of the fediverse, it would still require a lot of effort to gather mind share. :(
But I would still be interested in seeing such an effort take root. (And to toot my own horn, I do happen to have a project that can be used for this purpose; details in my bio, anyone feel free to reach out.)
> I personally don't think gender segregation should have a place in tech discussions, or any discussion in general,
Segregation happens naturally in any human society. It's not something we can avoid. Though, there are supporting elements, and in that regard this site is quite good, as there is not much infrastructure to support community-building here.
> as long as conversation is held in good faith and in a respectful manner.
It's not that simple. Even with good faith and respect can you create an unattractive environment for someone, without being guilty of it. And it's not like discussions here are all in good faith and absolut respectful. Tone and messages here can be very harsh, just with less swearings.
Segregation happens naturally in any human society. It's not something we can avoid. Though, there are supporting elements, and in that regard this site is quite good, as there is not much infrastructure to support community-building here.
> as long as conversation is held in good faith and in a respectful manner.
It's not that simple. Even with good faith and respect can you create an unattractive environment for someone, without being guilty of it. And it's not like discussions here are all in good faith and absolut respectful. Tone and messages here can be very harsh, just with less swearings.
If you want something with specifically Female orientated content try
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/
otherwise, HN is pretty neutral on gender...
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/
otherwise, HN is pretty neutral on gender...
Could it be that we HN people are in a biased male bubble?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5520342
With numbers like that it would seem impossible not to be.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5520342
With numbers like that it would seem impossible not to be.
How would you verify someone is a women? What does a women mean in this context?
I see it's been asked before what percentage of women might make up contributors here, with no clear answer. But it seems like there aren't many or they'd rather not make a point about it.