Racism in Sweden(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Racism in Sweden
https://twitter.com/katherinemzhou/status/1582963344314880001
45 comments
> Watched in horror
Why in horror?
This is a natural reaction when your world collapses because of people vastly different than you.
The ones who are eager to integrate are not a problem. The ones who want to bring their culture and put it in opposition to the one of their host country are a problem.
I am French and a militant atheist.
My two best friends are:
1. a devout catholic and we discuss how our views are bad and how the other is wrong in his head. And then go for a beer.
I support the fact that we are culturally Judeo-Christians and therefore part of my traces go to the small village church. This is life, and I protest that but know that nobody is going to cut my head for that.
2 a 2nd gen Muslim who meets with his family for their celebrations but otherwise does not care too much except that he is pissed off because when there is an issue it is always presumed that the culprit is Muslim. To what I say that if they did not have the arguably bad habit to cut heads when someone shows their god in underwear it would be better, we argue for a moment and go with nr 1 for a beer and juice for nr 2.
I know them and their friends for years and we are uber cool with each other.
If everyone was more tolerant and less aggressive about their beliefs we would not have extreme right parties
Why in horror?
This is a natural reaction when your world collapses because of people vastly different than you.
The ones who are eager to integrate are not a problem. The ones who want to bring their culture and put it in opposition to the one of their host country are a problem.
I am French and a militant atheist.
My two best friends are:
1. a devout catholic and we discuss how our views are bad and how the other is wrong in his head. And then go for a beer.
I support the fact that we are culturally Judeo-Christians and therefore part of my traces go to the small village church. This is life, and I protest that but know that nobody is going to cut my head for that.
2 a 2nd gen Muslim who meets with his family for their celebrations but otherwise does not care too much except that he is pissed off because when there is an issue it is always presumed that the culprit is Muslim. To what I say that if they did not have the arguably bad habit to cut heads when someone shows their god in underwear it would be better, we argue for a moment and go with nr 1 for a beer and juice for nr 2.
I know them and their friends for years and we are uber cool with each other.
If everyone was more tolerant and less aggressive about their beliefs we would not have extreme right parties
Nobody "dumped" refugees in Sweden. You took them in gladly.
You can't start complaining when everybody warned you.
You can't start complaining when everybody warned you.
> [...] instead of being allowed to build homes for themselves [...]
With whose money shall they build themselves homes? My money? I can't afford building a home for my family _despite_ being employed full time. So that solution you're implying would result in even more hatred. Rightfully so.
With whose money shall they build themselves homes? My money? I can't afford building a home for my family _despite_ being employed full time. So that solution you're implying would result in even more hatred. Rightfully so.
Migrants often come to the country with the physical skills, but not the certifications to do work like construction. I used the word 'allowed' in this context to mean that they, generally, lacked the ability to negotiate the complex modern construction standards of the Swedish state.
Mankind has been building homes for itself for 1.8 million years.[1] It's the norms of what constitutes a home (electricity, indoor plumbing, double glazing, certification) that have shifted, and I do not believe the migrants stood any chance of building homes compliant with modern swedish codes.
To answer your question, I believe you could build a home better than any caveman on your days off. But I think you're saying you don't have the money or time to build a modern, compliant home with the features I mention above, or to purchase the land for it.
There is plenty of rural land on the outskirts of Malmo. Sweden allowing a ghetto of poorly-developed, noncompliant houses would have been better than the tent-city I saw.
When I lived there, I was living in a noncompliant shipping-container construction that the government had erected hastily for overseas students with special permission, and it was more than enough. I believe the migrants had sufficient skill to build shipping-container homes, but there wasn't the political will to allow this bypass of swedish building compliance and due process.
[1] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-built-the-first-hou...
Mankind has been building homes for itself for 1.8 million years.[1] It's the norms of what constitutes a home (electricity, indoor plumbing, double glazing, certification) that have shifted, and I do not believe the migrants stood any chance of building homes compliant with modern swedish codes.
To answer your question, I believe you could build a home better than any caveman on your days off. But I think you're saying you don't have the money or time to build a modern, compliant home with the features I mention above, or to purchase the land for it.
There is plenty of rural land on the outskirts of Malmo. Sweden allowing a ghetto of poorly-developed, noncompliant houses would have been better than the tent-city I saw.
When I lived there, I was living in a noncompliant shipping-container construction that the government had erected hastily for overseas students with special permission, and it was more than enough. I believe the migrants had sufficient skill to build shipping-container homes, but there wasn't the political will to allow this bypass of swedish building compliance and due process.
[1] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-built-the-first-hou...
Yeah but those weren’t really “refugees” were they? You can’t call your self a refugee if you cross who knows how many borders from Syria and Afghanistan all the way to Sweden. And then add insult to injury by vacationing in the countries they are “fleeing” from.
Sweden wasn’t “the lone member state that did the right thing” and the illegal immigrants were not “dumped on Sweden”. Sweden made a very bad choice opening up to what is very clearly a criminal cohort going out of its way to abuse welfare.
And the same goes for Germany. Even more so because their incompetent leadership invited the entire middle east to Europe.
If you really wanted to “help out” and “be humanitarian” Sweden and the rest of the EU should have established safe zones in Africa. And end what is essentially a ferry service from Africa to Europe. Migrants go on dingy inflatable boats 5 miles of the coast, issue an SOS and get transported to the EU. If this isn’t incentivising illegal migration, I don’t know what is.
You can’t expect to conduct a policy of ethnic replacement which is what Swedens policy has been for the last few decades and don’t get resentment from the native population. You reap what you sow. The only good news is, the tide is turning.
Sweden wasn’t “the lone member state that did the right thing” and the illegal immigrants were not “dumped on Sweden”. Sweden made a very bad choice opening up to what is very clearly a criminal cohort going out of its way to abuse welfare.
And the same goes for Germany. Even more so because their incompetent leadership invited the entire middle east to Europe.
If you really wanted to “help out” and “be humanitarian” Sweden and the rest of the EU should have established safe zones in Africa. And end what is essentially a ferry service from Africa to Europe. Migrants go on dingy inflatable boats 5 miles of the coast, issue an SOS and get transported to the EU. If this isn’t incentivising illegal migration, I don’t know what is.
You can’t expect to conduct a policy of ethnic replacement which is what Swedens policy has been for the last few decades and don’t get resentment from the native population. You reap what you sow. The only good news is, the tide is turning.
>And the same goes for Germany. Even more so because their incompetent leadership invited the entire middle east to Europe.
>If you really wanted to “help out” and “be humanitarian” Sweden and the rest of the EU should have established safe zones in Africa.
The solution is to stress African countries instead of the European ones that helped create the Syrian refugees in the first place?
>If you really wanted to “help out” and “be humanitarian” Sweden and the rest of the EU should have established safe zones in Africa.
The solution is to stress African countries instead of the European ones that helped create the Syrian refugees in the first place?
Woke activist paints an entire country as racist while singling out a race with things like:
"All white dude designers need to read this book. There’s a whole chapter dedicated to you all, and it’s spot on."
Not surprised she's been "in a process of unlearning the imperialist + capitalist + racist education I received growing up in the US. Nurturing myself with literature from my people".
She's just quite confused on when and what her racist education actually was and doing a bad job unlearning it.
https://twitter.com/katherinemzhou/status/111795613065384345...
https://twitter.com/StandardSolo/status/1583140693362737153/...
Not surprised she's been "in a process of unlearning the imperialist + capitalist + racist education I received growing up in the US. Nurturing myself with literature from my people".
She's just quite confused on when and what her racist education actually was and doing a bad job unlearning it.
https://twitter.com/katherinemzhou/status/111795613065384345...
https://twitter.com/StandardSolo/status/1583140693362737153/...
Its shit that this person had to deal with continuous racism
It's awesome that she recognizes her privilege and was willing/able to post about her experiences, because they are widely shared
Its unfortunately unsurprising as the US is not great, and yet better than many alternatives
We're going to keep seeing this as previously homogenous - mostly white - countries keep dealing with immigration. The post/tweet Kat shares about 'assumed homogeneity when building a liberal society' is an attitude common throughout the nordic and baltic states
Industrialized nations that have relied on continuous GDP growth need immigration and yet socially, look to keep it at arms length. Often they embrace a phenotypical definition of belonging. These countries are just starting to make a journey like the US or the UK which represent two different trajectories and mythologies of state building and identity.
We're going to keep seeing this as previously homogenous - mostly white - countries keep dealing with immigration. The post/tweet Kat shares about 'assumed homogeneity when building a liberal society' is an attitude common throughout the nordic and baltic states
Industrialized nations that have relied on continuous GDP growth need immigration and yet socially, look to keep it at arms length. Often they embrace a phenotypical definition of belonging. These countries are just starting to make a journey like the US or the UK which represent two different trajectories and mythologies of state building and identity.
> Industrialized nations that have relied on continuous GDP growth need immigration
Correction: the industries, not the nations, need immigration to continue their pace of growth.
Correction: the industries, not the nations, need immigration to continue their pace of growth.
Well, if you want your national pension plans to support seniors so they don't have to eat dogfood, yeah, you need immigration (or new births) to support them.
So the wealthiest nations need immigration or their elderly will eat dogfood. Then presumably the elderly in other nations simply die upon retirement? Since their nations are both less wealthy and don't benefit from immigration, what other possibility is there?
In other countries? Either the government goes further into debt to support the elderly or they return to elderly moving in with their kids to support them.
Singapore is facing this. I can remember the exact numbers but there were 8 working age people for every senior in the 70’s and by 2040 it’ll 2 to 1.
So basically either younger folks face higher taxes or the elderly do without.
Singapore is facing this. I can remember the exact numbers but there were 8 working age people for every senior in the 70’s and by 2040 it’ll 2 to 1.
So basically either younger folks face higher taxes or the elderly do without.
You mean the pensions are Ponzi schemes, where each cohort requires youngsters to feed it to survive?
How evil are we?
How evil are we?
That is how all savings work. You understand that when you save for retirement, you are not burying food in the ground so that you can dig it up and eat it when you stop working, right? Instead, you are purchasing claims on future production. It is always the production of the next generation that feeds the current retired generation, as our time transportation technology still lacks the ability to actually save consumer goods for the future.
Not exactly.
The government pension schemes do not provide anything back to the chumps of the next generation.
Savings are put in financial institutions and earn money based upon how much money those financial institutions are able to earn by redeploying that money to help businesses grow.
There's quite a bit of difference between investing and extracting donations
The government pension schemes do not provide anything back to the chumps of the next generation.
Savings are put in financial institutions and earn money based upon how much money those financial institutions are able to earn by redeploying that money to help businesses grow.
There's quite a bit of difference between investing and extracting donations
They are both claims on future production, exactly as I said. If the future generation produces 50% less, then there will be 50% less for retirees to consume. It does not matter whether retirement is financed with social security or private savings, there will just be 50% less in both cases.
In neither case do claims on future production "help the business grow". Capital markets price claims, they never fund them, so at best you can say that correct pricing of claims helps allocate investment more efficiently, but that only requires marginal participation in capital markets in order to set prices.
So while capital markets play an important role in setting relative prices of investments, and thus of allocating money away from lower return and toward higher return investments, they play no role in absolute quantity of investment made. For that, just as loans create deposits, so investments create savings - not the other way around. If you are a farmer deciding to buy a new tractor, I guarantee you that you will never be waiting for someone to skip a meal and save in order for you to be able to finance the purchase of your tractor. Rather, an increase demand for consumption goods is required to increase investment and make the bank approve your tractor loan. That tractor investment is never funded by individuals choosing to "save". Rather, the purchase of the tractor is what causes aggregate savings to go up ex post, and whether pensions are funded with transfers or with capital markets has no bearing on whether it makes financial sense for you to take out the tractor loan and thus on aggregate savings.
In neither case do claims on future production "help the business grow". Capital markets price claims, they never fund them, so at best you can say that correct pricing of claims helps allocate investment more efficiently, but that only requires marginal participation in capital markets in order to set prices.
So while capital markets play an important role in setting relative prices of investments, and thus of allocating money away from lower return and toward higher return investments, they play no role in absolute quantity of investment made. For that, just as loans create deposits, so investments create savings - not the other way around. If you are a farmer deciding to buy a new tractor, I guarantee you that you will never be waiting for someone to skip a meal and save in order for you to be able to finance the purchase of your tractor. Rather, an increase demand for consumption goods is required to increase investment and make the bank approve your tractor loan. That tractor investment is never funded by individuals choosing to "save". Rather, the purchase of the tractor is what causes aggregate savings to go up ex post, and whether pensions are funded with transfers or with capital markets has no bearing on whether it makes financial sense for you to take out the tractor loan and thus on aggregate savings.
I cannot claim to be surprised how ignorant the HN crowd is on basic economic matters. Its bizarre to think that some bizarre financial engineering produces the returns, instead of actual young people providing labor.
The downvotes to your original comment is very typical of the HN crowd.
The downvotes to your original comment is very typical of the HN crowd.
How can you not know that this has how it has always been and this is how it can only be?! The young have to support the old people. Your index funds dont magically grow at 7% per year if there are no young people working!
The "nation" is a vague sociocultural and sociolegal construct. It's not a concrete thing that exists per se and therefore it doesn't have needs in the abstract. In the context that the GP was talking in, it's obvious they were using "nation" to refer to the economic prosperity of a country. This is what industry needs, but it's also what everyday people need.
Er, isn't the birth rate in the West well below replacement rate?
This would not be an issue if we didn’t live in an absurd system demanding constant growth.
a more diverse workforce is less likely to unionise, so ''want" might be a better word here
Whatever benefits people say Europe has over North America, it is undeniable that Asian expats in North America feel more integrated than Asian expats in Europe.
I think there's too much variation for this generalisation.
Western Asians (Middle Eastern people), South Asians and East Asians all face different problems in different European and American states.
Western Asians (Middle Eastern people), South Asians and East Asians all face different problems in different European and American states.
When the word “Asian” is used colloquially (in the U.S. at least) without qualification to refer to a group of people, it almost always means either East Asian in the narrower sense, or East+South+Southeast Asian in the broader sense. Don’t think West Asians are ever included without clarification.
Here is a thought experiment: count the number of west, south, East Asian CEOs in top companies or political positions (local to national) and ask whether North America or Europe have more of them.
To be Asian and also the face of a very public company or be voted into government is a sign of the publics tolerance of Asians being integrated in their society.
To be Asian and also the face of a very public company or be voted into government is a sign of the publics tolerance of Asians being integrated in their society.
I think this is a massive generalisation and very anecdotal, there's racist assholes everywhere you go.
Yeah, for what it is worth as a Swede I've seen the opposite too, where someone who where acting racist towards a person in a store got called out and lectured by a woman who saw it.
But I don't deny that the recent seat gains by SD in the general election points towards the country getting increasingly xenophobic, possibly racist.
But I don't deny that the recent seat gains by SD in the general election points towards the country getting increasingly xenophobic, possibly racist.
I wonder how many commenters here have to deal with poor african/middle eastern immigrants on a daily basis. It's easy to say "take them in, no human is illegal" when living in a walled community yourself.
Sweden is so irredeemably racist that it has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement <http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/B...> for obtaining citizenship.
In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden <https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>.
In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden <https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>.
It's in no way out of the ordinary that citizenship doesn't require employment (the same is e.g. true for Germany or the US).
Apologies for my first link above being broken. My thanks to berglof for providing the current URL: <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...>
1) fix your link
2) This absolutely does not match my experience:
I needed an employer to declare that they couldn't find a Swede to employ before I was allowed into the country. 2 years in I needed to renew my residence+work permit (submitting evidence that my income hadn't deceased, etc.). Another 2 years in I needed to renew again - achieving a permanent residence+work visa. Only after that could I apply for citizenship, which is still underway.
3) my experience obviously relates to how the law has worked thus far. The government has only just changed from the leftish incumbent party to a right-wing coalition, so it probably doesn't make sense to judge the current state of the country by laws which will now no doubt be changed.
2) This absolutely does not match my experience:
I needed an employer to declare that they couldn't find a Swede to employ before I was allowed into the country. 2 years in I needed to renew my residence+work permit (submitting evidence that my income hadn't deceased, etc.). Another 2 years in I needed to renew again - achieving a permanent residence+work visa. Only after that could I apply for citizenship, which is still underway.
3) my experience obviously relates to how the law has worked thus far. The government has only just changed from the leftish incumbent party to a right-wing coalition, so it probably doesn't make sense to judge the current state of the country by laws which will now no doubt be changed.
1) Agreed, it's broken
2) If you are not a citizen of another EU country (or a country with some special agreement) you will likely have to enter on a holiday/work/student VISA which should prove that you can support yourself whilst in Sweden. After five years you can apply to become a citizen and there's no test in place to judge you Swedish-ish-ness. (Nobody will quiz you about which year our old king skied on one ski from Mora to Salen.. for now)
I think the point of the previous comment was that it's too easy to get a citizenship for "immigrants" (refugees), not for economic immigrants that choose to move to Sweden for Fun And Profits/Shits And Giggles.
We're all equal under the law, it's just that diffent laws apply to each of us.
3) The law is unlikely to change before 2025 (link below) when you might be tested on which year the Swedish challenger to the headed for refuge (yeah.. ironic) in Norway.
P.S.
Congrats for sticking with it even if my government forced you to do paperwork TWICE in five years :P
https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentl... (Swedish, sorry) https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... (checked as of writing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasaloppet
2) If you are not a citizen of another EU country (or a country with some special agreement) you will likely have to enter on a holiday/work/student VISA which should prove that you can support yourself whilst in Sweden. After five years you can apply to become a citizen and there's no test in place to judge you Swedish-ish-ness. (Nobody will quiz you about which year our old king skied on one ski from Mora to Salen.. for now)
I think the point of the previous comment was that it's too easy to get a citizenship for "immigrants" (refugees), not for economic immigrants that choose to move to Sweden for Fun And Profits/Shits And Giggles.
We're all equal under the law, it's just that diffent laws apply to each of us.
3) The law is unlikely to change before 2025 (link below) when you might be tested on which year the Swedish challenger to the headed for refuge (yeah.. ironic) in Norway.
P.S.
Congrats for sticking with it even if my government forced you to do paperwork TWICE in five years :P
https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentl... (Swedish, sorry) https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... (checked as of writing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasaloppet
My thanks to you for providing the current URL for the page I referenced in my earlier comment.
>We're all equal under the law, it's just that diffent laws apply to each of us.
Indeed.
I invite everyone curious to visit the above-mentioned page; as I stated, note the total absence of any language or employment requirement for obtaining Swedish citizenship.
>We're all equal under the law, it's just that diffent laws apply to each of us.
Indeed.
I invite everyone curious to visit the above-mentioned page; as I stated, note the total absence of any language or employment requirement for obtaining Swedish citizenship.
>1) fix your link
Done (albeit in a reply to myself, as it is too late to edit my comment); I apologize for that.
>2) This absolutely does not match my experience:
I invite everyone to peruse the link that berglof kindly provided the current version of, at <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...>. Note the total absence of any language or employment requirement for obtaining Swedish citizenship.
Done (albeit in a reply to myself, as it is too late to edit my comment); I apologize for that.
>2) This absolutely does not match my experience:
I invite everyone to peruse the link that berglof kindly provided the current version of, at <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...>. Note the total absence of any language or employment requirement for obtaining Swedish citizenship.
I'd question every tiny twitter account that get this many likes in such short time and where the links are spread by karma-boosted accounts, here and on reddit.
The woman also posted a video about some random person, spewing rasist slurs in English towards the woman, somehow know that she only speaks English, in full mask/hoodie so that she cannot be identified.
The woman also posted a video about some random person, spewing rasist slurs in English towards the woman, somehow know that she only speaks English, in full mask/hoodie so that she cannot be identified.
[deleted]
Naturally, pointing out that the accounts are karma-boosted = downvotes.
The Syrian war was when we should have dealt with Russia in the first place
everyone are so embracing and progressive until they see a mass of different people in their country.
one day, maybe, all people will accept the fact that we are all the same. regardless of color, religion, origin, sex. we are all the same... racist.
[deleted]
Why? The rent doubled, the buses were full, taxes increased and crime sky-rocketed as immigrants who didn't have enough to eat crowded on to Sweden's generous social benefits scheme. The swedes, with a proud tradition of construction unions, heritage planning and social consensus didn't have the ability to reach an agreement on how to feed and house so many immigrants so quickly. This led to the migrants literally building a shanty town around the Malmo benefits office, instead of being allowed to build homes for themselves, as the EU refused to support the lone member state that did the right thing.
Proportionally, this influx would be like 5 million people arriving and applying for asylum in the US in a single year. [1]
As I witnessed these kind and tolerant people transform into the racist bigots this lady encountered, I think things would have very been different if the planet had treated the 2015 refugee crisis as a common problem, and not dumped it all on Sweden.
No, there is no excuse for racism, or for the lack of action in this case. But there are forces that provoke it, and every country that didn't take in a proportionate number of refugees during this crisis shares the blame for the social mess that Sweden is in today.
[1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-rise-of-sweden-democr...